Creative designs for tonearms

[jostber]

Going on from the Wand discussion:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14620

Here are some more creative designs for tonearms:

The Scheu Analog Cantus

http://www.scheu-analog.de/wp-content/uploads/cantus1.jpg

http://www.scheu-analog.de/en/tonarme/cantus/

The String Theory

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue56/images/100_3636.JPG

http://www.vtaf.com/id82.html

The Copperhead

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/images/012_Copperhead_and_Ultimate_Analogue_Test_LP.jpg

http://www.stereophile.com/tonearms/106con/index.html

The Conductor

http://www.tnt-audio.com/jpeg/conductor_big.jpg

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/conductor_e.html

Anyone's got more? :)

[MartinT]

I always thought the Triplanar rather an amazing arm.

http://www.galibierdesign.com/images/triplanar_600.jpg

[Marco]

Gorgeous - you and I love stylish over-engineering! Is that a piece of ebony I see in there again, in the middle? ;)

Marco.

[MartinT]

No, it's an "Annealed-aluminum coaxial damped armtube".

[Dominic Harper]

My arm of choice at the mo. A prototype 12" designed by Avondale Audio.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/DSC02419.jpg

[jazzpiano]

Great and fun idea for a thread Jostein! I'm biased but would add a Well-Tempered Arm.

Best,
Barry

[YNWaN]

I've seen all of the above before - the Scheu and the Copperhead are both interesting designs.

[Marco]

My arm of choice at the mo. A prototype 12" designed by Avondale Audio.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/DSC02419.jpg

That's looking very nice, Dom! Looking forward to hearing it soon :cool:

Marco.

[morris_minor]

47 Labs
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/tsurube.jpg

PHY 15 inch
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/phy/tonearm.jpg

Some Russian jobbie - a spinoff from the Sputnik programme ;)
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Commerce/SaleImages/Korvet2.jpg

[The Grand Wazoo]

How about the Nad 5120 turntable with the flat tonearm.


http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/885/481DSC00253.JPG

It was made from printed circuit board material & the wiring was copper tracks with electrostatic shielding from hum.
The thing was 1 or 2mm thick, making it incredibly strong in the lateral plane (stronger than a tube) but bendy in the vertical plane - Perhaps not so obviously good, except that the notion that an arm should be rigid is related to the fact that tubes ring when they're excited. If you think about it, some flat fibre-loaded resin isn't going to ring, so does it really need to be completely rigid? The vibrations went down the beam to the counterweight. The counterweight had a hinge, it was spring loaded and also included a paddle dipped into a dashpot filled with damping fluid.

[sq225917]

If that Russian arm is half as clever as its owner thinks he is then it'll be a hell of a an arm.

[AAshton]

How about the Nad 5120 turntable with the flat tonearm.

If you think about it, some flat fibre-loaded resin isn't going to ring, so does it really need to be completely rigid?

I suspect that it does need to be rigid as any flexing will shorten the effective length of the arm.

Andrew

[Spectral Morn]

Eminent Technology ET2 (wonderful arm)

http://www.eminent-tech.com/graphics/ET-2%20tonearm%20B.jpg

Graham Phantom (also wonderful)

http://www.katli.com/Thumbnail%20Pictures/Graham%20Phantom%202.jpg



Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

I suspect that it does need to be rigid as any flexing will shorten the effective length of the arm.

Andrew

Aha! But as I understand it, the clever part was that when it was in use it didn't flex, because the vibrations were returned back down the arm out of phase, so cancelling them out. And what's more, the cartridge would be effectively partially decoupled and also would vibrate at a much higher frequency than in a conventional arm.

I'm not saying it was any good - how could one really tell on such a flaky turntable? , but it was certainly innovative and fits the 'creative design' bill for this thread. I wonder what could have been done if it had been developed a little more than was possible for such a budget model.

[WOStantonCS100]

Trans-Fi Terminator T3 Pro (currently in use at chez moi)

http://www.trans-fi.com/Terminator%20III/Tomahawk/T3Tom1.JPG



Schick 12" (one I'd certainly like to try)

http://www.thomas-schick.com/arm/SPUA.jpg

[MartinT]

47 Labs
http://www.sakurasystems.com/graphics/tsurube.jpg


What is with that bizarre counterweight arrangement? I love the twin opposite spinning platters :)

47 Labs have given me some great amusement over the years. Has anyone seen their open mechanism CD player?

[MartinT]

47 Labs RS-A1 tonearm :)
Anyone ever seen a finger lift in that position?

http://www.dagogo.com/assets/images/image/ANALOG/RS%20Lab%20RS-A1%20tonearm/RSLabRSA1-1.jpg

[The Grand Wazoo]

What is with that bizarre counterweight arrangement? I love the twin opposite spinning platters :)


.........and what the hell is that dangly yellow thing at the front of the cartridge?

[MartinT]

.........and what the hell is that dangly yellow thing at the front of the cartridge?

Brush? Damping?

[tim_bissell]

Looks like a lure for audiophools ;)

[bogle111]

How about the Nad 5120 turntable with the flat tonearm.


http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/885/481DSC00253.JPG

It was made from printed circuit board material & the wiring was copper tracks with electrostatic shielding from hum.
The thing was 1 or 2mm thick, making it incredibly strong in the lateral plane (stronger than a tube) but bendy in the vertical plane - Perhaps not so obviously good, except that the notion that an arm should be rigid is related to the fact that tubes ring when they're excited. If you think about it, some flat fibre-loaded resin isn't going to ring, so does it really need to be completely rigid? The vibrations went down the beam to the counterweight. The counterweight had a hinge, it was spring loaded and also included a paddle dipped into a dashpot filled with damping fluid.

This tone-arm was also available on its' own, for a short time. It could handle some good carts. too. The complete set-up was only let down by the plastic platter and plinth. IMSC it was £109 inc. cart.. There were few issues with the arm, very innovative with well founded principles. Seem to remember it was made Czech Republic? Most people scoffed at it.

[jostber]

The recently released EAT E-Flat turntable:

http://www.euroaudioteam.com/c2/page-images/000046/000037-02.jpg

[morris_minor]

The recently released EAT E-Flat turntable:

http://www.euroaudioteam.com/c2/page-images/000046/000037-02.jpg

Wow. That looks beautiful!

Can it play in other keys, though? :lolsign:

[alfie2902]

I always thought the Triplanar rather an amazing arm.

http://www.galibierdesign.com/images/triplanar_600.jpg

Very nice arm! I like these though ;)

http://20cheaddatebase.web.fc2.com/needie/NDFR/FR-64S.jpg

[MartinT]

The recently released EAT E-Flat turntable

Those headshell holes look a little rough. I wonder how they would hold out with repeated use? Looks like an entire arm swap if they fail.

[MartinT]

Missing piccie there, Alfie.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That picture was not showing for me last night, so I went to the source of it to see what it was. When I came back here, it had miraculously appeared, so I thought Alfie must've sorted out a dodgy tag or something. It seems that wasn't the problem. Anyway, it seems to be a pictuire of a Fidelity Research FR64S - will this one do?

http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Garrard/Shinji%20Tadano/FR64.jpg

[MartinT]

Sure will, Chris. Lovely hefty arm.

[shane]

Here's one I made earlier that didn't really work:

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Schroeder/23.JPG

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Schroeder/25.JPG


and one that did:

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Unipivot/DSCF0403.JPG

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Unipivot/DSCF0400.JPG

[morris_minor]

Excellent Shane :)

Can anyone tell me what the advantages/disadvantages are of S-shaped tonearms compared to straight ones with a kink at the end?

It seems to me that more "modern" arms are straight, whilst the classic stuff uses an S bend. To my mind it's the angle that the headshell has in relation to the groove, and the arc it travels across the record that are important. How the headshell is connected to the pivot is trivial - provided things like resonance are controlled.

:scratch:

Thanks,
Bob

[YNWaN]

I agree, to a point - but I wouldn't say that how the cartridge is attached to the pivot is a trivial issue and controlling 'things like resonances' is a lot easier said than done.

[MartinT]

'S' shape and straight arms have inherent lateral balance (making the pressure equal on both bearings, unless it's a unipivot). 'J' arms (like the SME 3009) need a lateral balance weight and so do unipivots. Cranked arms (like my Dynavector) are laterally balanced by dint of the sub-arm being balanced.

[morris_minor]

I didn't really mean "trivial" Mark, but in comparison with getting the cartridge geometry right the shape of the arm would be less important.

I can see, too, Martin how straight arms have a dynamic balance - not too clear how S shaped arms do though.

I was really wondering if any shape had an inherent advantage, or if every shape was really a compromise and the designers opt to balance out (sic.) different parameters. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself clearly here - engineering is not my forte :lol:

[MartinT]

'S' is laterally balanced because there is as much of the arm tube to one side of the centre line as to the other.

I don't think there is any one true design as otherwise all arms would have reduced to a variation of one form by now.

[morris_minor]

'S' is laterally balanced because there is as much of the arm tube to one side of the centre line as to the other.


:doh:

[DSJR]

What interests me is why all these expensive fancy counterweights for the Rega arms attempt to undersling the mass, whereas it shouldn't matter in a "normally" pivoted arm, should it????

[MartinT]

Low C of G, attempting to get it down to the same level as the stylus contact point.

[morris_minor]

The Schick 12" (posted by Biff, above) is a j-shaped arm with no lateral balancing, yet presumably it still works (whether screwed to a parquet-floor or not :eyebrows: ).

Would it be true to say that some arms are simply over-engineered, and that less=more?

Your Dynavector, Martin, is a work of engineering art. [Had I not decided to go down the Technics parallel tracker route with an SL7 and QL1, it would have been very high on my wish list for looks alone!] I can see that it is very elegant solution, but does it actually work better than a really good, and much simpler, unipivot arm?

I suppose the bottom line is that there's more than one way to skin this particular cat, and as you said earlier, no one design principle is head and shoulders above the rest.

I, like the rest of you probably, find the whole vinyl reproduction process fascinating because it really shouldn't sound as good as it does, given the reliance on dragging a little stylus in a wiggly groove to produce a minute current. :)

[MartinT]

The Schick 12" (posted by Biff, above) is a j-shaped arm with no lateral balancing, yet presumably it still works (whether screwed to a parquet-floor or not :eyebrows: ).

12" arms also frequently have no bias as their length means that bias is less important. Yes, there are arms which have no lateral balance so the bearings do the work of keeping everything straight.


Your Dynavector, Martin, is a work of engineering art. [Had I not decided to go down the Technics parallel tracker route with an SL7 and QL1, it would have been very high on my wish list for looks alone!] I can see that it is very elegant solution, but does it actually work better than a really good, and much simpler, unipivot arm?

There are some very elegant pieces of engineering in it, such as the very low mass sub-arm but extremely high mass main arm giving excellent tracking; the magnetic damping - much more elegant than fluid; the high rigidity everywhere. To me it's one of the best sounding arms I've ever heard, and that's what makes me love it.

[morris_minor]

To me it's one of the best sounding arms I've ever heard, and that's what makes me love it.

:respect:

[shane]

It intrigues me that although different arms sound very different, I've never heard anyone claim that different types have generic sonic signatures. Would anyone care to describe the sound of a unipivot compared to a gimbal or knife-edge, for example?

[MartinT]

I've never heard much correlation between shape and sound, except that one-piece cast arms like the Rega and SME IV/V do have a house sound to my ears.

[sq225917]

Knife edge bearing arms require a lateral balance, the shape of the arm effects the amount, but the bearing type is the causal factor.

[morris_minor]

http://www.gumboot.com/cgi-bin/ezshop/shop/2052?prodcode=108

http://www.designbuildlisten.com/ezshop/900019.JPG

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/d7/92/d7928a1fe7a522bd002f429f5b9f4eb3.jpg

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/be/20/be20799d904d414eb90807bea4a570ff.jpg

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/5f/74/5f74db471bd47ae5c65f8be2a52d7698.jpg

[The Grand Wazoo]

This arm has been interesting me for a little while now, but it doesn't half remind me of the Giant African Millipedes I used to see as a kid in Central Africa.

It grows up to 12" long - ladies & gentlemen, I give you the chongalola!

1Jo9s80Tz-w

(known in some parts of Africa as the shongololo)

[Barry]

This arm has been interesting me for a little while now, but it doesn't half remind me of the Giant African Millipedes I used to see as a kid in Central Africa.

It grows up to 12" long - ladies & gentlemen, I give you the chongalola!

1Jo9s80Tz-w

(known in some parts of Africa as the shongololo)

Would Chonga Lola (and her soubriquet) be in any way related to the Kink's Lola?

I met her in a club down in old Soho
Where you drink champagne
It tastes just like Coca Cola, C-O-L-A cola

She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice
She said Lola, L-O-L-A, Lola, L-L-Lola

Well, I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, L-L-Lola

Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walked like a woman but talked like a man
Oh my Lola, L-L-Lola, L-L-Lola

Well, we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said, "Dear boy, won't you come home with me?"

Well, I'm not the world's most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes well I almost fell for my Lola
L-L-Lola, L-L-Lola
Lola, L-L-Lola, L-L-Lola

I pushed her away, I walked to the door
I fell to the floor, I got down on my knees
Then I looked at her and she at me

That's the way that I want it to stay
I always want it to be that way for my Lola, L-L-Lola

Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up muddled up, shook up world
Except for Lola, L-L-Lola

Well, I left home just a week before
And I'd never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said, "Dear boy, I'm gonna make you a man"

Well, I'm not the world's most masculine man
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
And so is Lola, L-L-Lola, L-L-Lola
Lola, L-L-Lola, L-L-Lola

[jostber]

Durant Talea:

http://durand-tonearms.com/Talea/files/taleaii_3small.jpg

http://www.durand-tonearms.com/Talea/Gallery%20Talea%20II/files/collage_lb_image_page15_6_1.png

Durand Telos:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_D9jBFrivc0/Tq2D4aNTUEI/AAAAAAAACso/GY8dc_9ulEM/s400/telos2.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jlHBzbJz8iI/Tq2D9t7z8II/AAAAAAAACsw/OBDdz2mSrpg/s400/telos3.jpg

[Marco]

They don't have to be new tonearms, to qualify as being creative, do they? :)

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Syntec S-220 broadcast tonearm, which was used in countless radio stations across the world (often by the NHK in Japan, with a DL-103 strapped onto it):


http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7233/syntecs2202.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/syntecs2202.png/)


http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2285/syntecs2203.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/syntecs2203.png/)


http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6099/syntecs2201.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/syntecs2201.png/)


http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6672/syntecs220.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/syntecs220.png/)


:cool:

Marco.

[MartinT]

Good looking solid engineering there, Marco. Looks like it could have been made by Audio Technica?

[Marco]

Indeed, Martin. It's a lovely solid looking thing, and not rather 'frail' looking, like some of the other arms shown, which give the impression that they'd fall apart, if one breathed on them the wrong way! ;)

I think it was Technics that made it.

How about some more novel designs of vintage arms then folks, just to balance things out between old and new? :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Bluenote Betania

http://www.hifiaudiosound.com/images/bluenote_tonearm_betania_lrg.jpg

[MartinT]

Moerch UP4 & DP6

http://www.sorasound.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/moerch-tonearms-gold-and-chrome1.jpg

[MartinT]

Pole Star PS-UNV2

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mrBwcwxvWeY/TiLQzj1-ufI/AAAAAAAABMg/VL35FBaOMXE/s640/pole-star.jpg

[MartinT]

Roksan Tabriz

Not sure if this is made any more.

http://soundapproach.com/images/cat_132/tabriz.jpg

[MartinT]

Graham Robin

http://www.hifiaudiosound.co.uk/images/graham_engineering_tonearm_robin_lrg.jpg

[MartinT]

Dynavector DV507-II

I shouldn't forget my own tonearm :)

http://www.acfaudio.nl/image/product/draaitafels/Dynavector/dynavector_507.jpg

[Marco]

Nice selection of interesting arms there, Martin. The Robin looks like it was made by Jelco - I can detect the DNA! :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

The Robin looks like it was made by Jelco - I can detect the DNA! :)

Yes it does - especially the bias outrigger and dial.

[Marco]

Audio Note Arm 1:


http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/1268/audionotearm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/audionotearm1.jpg/)


Roksan Nima:


http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3822/roksannimaunipivottonea.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/roksannimaunipivottonea.jpg/)


Audio Origami PU7 (12" version):


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8625/pu7h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/pu7h.jpg/)


http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/9506/92413328.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/92413328.jpg/)


Thomas Schick:


http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4254/schick6653.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/schick6653.jpg/)


http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3237/p1090159k.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/p1090159k.jpg/)


And my own tonearm (on the left), the Ortofon RS-212D:


http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/8646/rs212d309db.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/rs212d309db.jpg/)


http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3203/tonearmd212.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/tonearmd212.png/)


I think what this thread highlights is the plethora of 'left-field' tonearm options out there, away from the BOOORRINNG world of SME, Rega, Michell, Linn, etc, if one applies a little lateral thinking!!

Why folk always go for the obvious (safe) tonearm choices, which often aren't the best sounding options, at their respective price points, is beyond me... Sheer laziness, lack of imagination, and an unwillingness to look beyond the end of their noses, I guess :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Marco]

Yes it does - especially the bias outrigger and dial.

And the tonearm rest and lifting assembly! ;)

Marco.

[shane]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned the Odyssey yet. Found these pics on a thread on Audiosmile from a gentlemen named Murray Johnson. Hope he doesn't mind, but they were the best ones I could find:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/rp1xg2.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/rp1xg.jpg

This later evolved into something rather beautiful.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xDIYBX1Hgio/TYUBEmK53kI/AAAAAAAAADY/x13Zfspqvck/s1600/Gold+Signature+for+me%252C+number+017.jpg


The designer also has a website that's worth looking at:

http://odysseytonearms.blogspot.com/p/rp1-rp1-p.html

[shane]

And then of course there's Helius. This one appears to be pregnant...

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/helius/images/aurora.jpg

Their original Orion had some interesting ideas, trying to be a unipivot without the wobble. I never quite understood how that worked:

http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/s/f/1303049943.jpg

http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/_wp_generated/wpe0651e08_0f.jpg

[MartinT]

"it replaces the Aureus range arms".

Good riddance! The crappest arm I've ever owned.

[MartinT]

http://www.dagogo.com/assets/images/image/ANALOG/RS%20Lab%20RS-A1%20tonearm/RSLabRSA1-1.jpg

I've got to say, this for me is still the wackiest arm I've seen. The cartridge appears to be mounted on its own gimbal! It must be so unstable, at least in my thought experiment.

[sq225917]

http://www.gumboot.com/cgi-bin/ezshop/shop/2052?prodcode=108

http://www.designbuildlisten.com/ezshop/900019.JPG

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/d7/92/d7928a1fe7a522bd002f429f5b9f4eb3.jpg

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/be/20/be20799d904d414eb90807bea4a570ff.jpg

http://bestawards.co.nz/media/cache/5f/74/5f74db471bd47ae5c65f8be2a52d7698.jpg


IS anyone else wondering why they have the antiskate on the wrong way?

[MartinT]

No. It's down-range of the bearing so it will be correctly pulling the arm outwards towards the record edge.

[keiths]

IS anyone else wondering why they have the antiskate on the wrong way?

They don't - the thread and weight is on the opposite side to the norm, but their arrangement is still pulling the arm away from the record centre.

[jostber]

The Spiral Groove Centroid tonearm

http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/201011/Tonearm_big.jpghttp://dyna5555.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2011/01/07/p1030139.jpg

[jostber]

Something that is not usually included in the design of tonearms is that it should be easy to adjust correctly for the user regarding VTA, VFT, overhang, azimuth and more. The Spiral Groove seems to have a good focus on this:

http://www.spiral-groove.com/products/tonearm.htm

[Marco]

Another tonearm that more people should use - the Hadcock GH242 Integra:


http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/426/hadarm.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/hadarm.jpg/)


In the past, I've had superb results with one of those, and the modern ones are a far cry from the 'flaky' build quality examples of old! They also work superbly well on Techies.... :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Looks the same to me marco :D But I believe you. They always did sound good, especially on a Technics SL150 I remember, and even the likes of a Fons CQ30 as well as LP12's and TD160's..

[Marco]

Well, Dave, I've used both old and new Hadcocks, and can categorically state that the build quality between them is night and day.

The component parts are now produced and machined to a much higher standard, and so the whole contruction of the arm is more solid, which improves performance and reliability, and gives one a greater sense of confidence (that one is not handling something 'home-made in a shed') when using it :)

Marco.

[Slippershod]

bit low-end for this thread I suspect, but...:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m626/slippershod/cherry-tonearm.jpg

the 'cherry tonearm' made by 'len' (?) in the US.
has it's admirers - I had the 12 inch version on a lenco for a while - 'skating way on the thin ice of a new day' sounded great with a 103 :)

had trouble with azimuth adjustment - probably my failing.




this next one (the 12 inch version rather than the 9 shown here ) was, um, an interesting experience:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m626/slippershod/temaad-wizard-12.jpg

the temaad audio 'wizard' - great claims made for it on it's ebay sale pages... but, again, actual audio problems I had with it were quite possibly more user-error than anything inherent - at this level one is supposed to be resourceful and bodge-tastic I guess.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yamamura Churchill


http://www.thefunkyway.com/gearmus/djgear/decks/Yamamura%20Churchill%20J%20turntable.jpg

[morris_minor]

Is there a tonearm connection between this:
http://www.dagogo.com/assets/images/image/ANALOG/RS%20Lab%20RS-A1%20tonearm/RSLabRSA1-1.jpg
and this
http://www.thefunkyway.com/gearmus/djgear/decks/Yamamura%20Churchill%20J%20turntable.jpg

If not, their respective designers have been abusing the same substances :eyebrows:.

[MartinT]

Yes, the counterweight arrangements loook awfully similar.

[Marco]

Both, IMO, are a visual abomination! :spew:

Marco.

[Slippershod]

hmm, dunno ... always thought the black one (RS-A1 or whatever) looked rather cool.

it's the one you just 'place' on your top-board I think - remember reading one very favourable review of it.

the tri-planar in the pic above in the thread looks awful, to me, although I've seen more flattering photos of it, to be fair.

[morris_minor]

Blimey! A bit bling-tastic for Pro-ject ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sVFY6z7iVlc/Tvnl93XflZI/AAAAAAAAEik/MS2LJ6mtnsM/s1600/P-signature-oben1.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wW4vzhOvrec/TvnmDuTNgxI/AAAAAAAAEiw/T2oqiZVQqic/s1600/Pro_Ject_Audio_Signature_Bild_Top_670.jpg



• Mass-loaded subchassis design
• Magnetically decoupled main platter
• Resonance-optimised alloy
• Inverted main bearing with ceramic ball
• Flywheel belt drive
• Motor control system with LCD display
• Single-pivot tonearm
• High gloss metal surface
• Piano-lacquer chassis with magnetic decoupling

Signature is a non-compromise highend turntable that celebrates “20-years of Pro-Ject Audio Systems”. A highly sophisticated concept combines the mass-loaded principle with subchassis. Magnetic feet decouple the chassis from surface, “Sorbothanepillows” and a magnetic-floating platter guarantees an absolute quiet running turntable. A “flywheel” belt drive system ensures vibration-free running. The new single-pivot tonearm is a genuine Pro-Ject design. With its wide range of adjustment possibilities and the choice of adequate counterweights, nearly all cartridges can be mounted.

Speed 33,45 electronic speed change
Actuation principle * Flywheel belt drive
Motor control system * Precision generator with LCD display
Platter 10,55 kg magnetically decoupled
Main bearing * cramic (ball/plate)
Tonearm 12”; single-pivot, aluminium
Effective arm length 304,8 mm
Effective arm mass 19,5 g
Cartridge mass 4 - 10g, several counterweights included
RCA connectors *gold plated
Power supply *16Volt/xxx mA included
Dimensions *570x 470 x 250mm (WxHxD)
Weight 34,3 kg

9500 euros.

[Alex_UK]

Blimey! A bit bling-tastic for Pro-ject ...

Wow - personally I think it looks gorgeous, though I'm sure I will be in the minority!

[Marco]

And guess what - the plinth is available in piano lilac as a special order!

Marco.

[MartinT]

I wonder what the double outrigger pulleys are for?

[YNWaN]

They will be twin motors, as they are on the VPI that it emulates (in that regard at least).

[MartinT]

They will be twin motors, as they are on the VPI that it emulates (in that regard at least).

What do twin motors bring to the table?

[YNWaN]

More noise.....

Potentially a less defined (more chaotic) cogging pattern; theoretically, greater torque (though I am less convinced and think this can be achieved better with one motor if used correctly).

[morris_minor]

Wow - personally I think it looks gorgeous, though I'm sure I will be in the minority!

Stick a different badge on it and more people might rate it :lol:

[pure sound]

What do twin motors bring to the table?
I suppose if you do want a fast spinning flywheel (which must have its own bearing) it makes some sense to drive it from both sides. What you gain in reduced bearing noise there may be offset by the extra noise generated by the second motor. It all depends how effective the isolation system is I suppose.

[Slippershod]

gosh - looks great in those photos... oddly enough reminds me of that old pioneer (?) DD deck that was pictured without its wooden plinth and admired as such in another thread.




Blimey! A bit bling-tastic for Pro-ject ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sVFY6z7iVlc/Tvnl93XflZI/AAAAAAAAEik/MS2LJ6mtnsM/s1600/P-signature-oben1.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wW4vzhOvrec/TvnmDuTNgxI/AAAAAAAAEiw/T2oqiZVQqic/s1600/Pro_Ject_Audio_Signature_Bild_Top_670.jpg

[RobbieGong]

Good Gosh !! :stalks: That is one tasty and high end looking deck for sure !!! Blimey - :stalks:. What model is this ? also does it sound anywhere nearly as good as it looks ?? :)

[Bwaze]

Vertical tangential turntable by "Ambasador", Slovenia. A DIY project, presented on this year's Multimedia Hi-Fi Show in Ljubljana:

http://www.audio-kontakt.com/forum/nalozeno/AUIOOA-1318283035298075_10150411012798973_71253273972_102 89084_183403767_n.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/Bwaze/Multimedia%20HI-FI%20SHOW%20Ljubljana%202011/IMG_5050.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/Bwaze/Multimedia%20HI-FI%20SHOW%20Ljubljana%202011/IMG_5016.jpg

All photos except the first one by me. Here are some other photos from the show if anyone's interested:

Multimedia Hi-Fi Show 2011, Ljubljana, Slovenia (http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/Bwaze/Multimedia%20HI-FI%20SHOW%20Ljubljana%202011/?albumview=slideshow)

:)

[Marco]

Blimey! A bit bling-tastic for Pro-ject ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sVFY6z7iVlc/Tvnl93XflZI/AAAAAAAAEik/MS2LJ6mtnsM/s1600/P-signature-oben1.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wW4vzhOvrec/TvnmDuTNgxI/AAAAAAAAEiw/T2oqiZVQqic/s1600/Pro_Ject_Audio_Signature_Bild_Top_670.jpg


No doubt it'll sound excellent, and I rate Pro-ject's hi-end designs, but aesthetically I much prefer the look of the Xtension:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2751/projectxtensionortofonr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/projectxtensionortofonr.jpg/)

The shiny chrome-to-gloss black-ratio has been much more carefully judged - and a better tonearm used! ;)

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Is that a 12" Ortofon or are you just pleased to see me :D

[Marco]

It is indeed! :eyebrows:

I'd also hazard a guess that the Pro-ject T/T combo I've shown would outperform that blingy one! ;)

Marco.

[Slippershod]

No doubt it'll sound excellent, and I rate Pro-ject's hi-end designs, but aesthetically I much prefer the look of the Xtension:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2751/projectxtensionortofonr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/projectxtensionortofonr.jpg/)

The shiny chrome-to-gloss black-ratio has been much more carefully judged - and a better tonearm used! ;)

Marco.

looks good-ish, although the natural wood Xtension, with that model, is the better looking I think.

the black one here looks a bit toy-town, fisher-technik somehow - think it's the plasticy looking armboard ( although doubtless it isn't plastic) and green spirit level 'eye'.

oh, and perhaps the motor cover bit with the large, um, nuts / bolts (whatever).

[morris_minor]

Not a creative tonearm, but the Kronos turntable is claimed to be the world’s first counter rotating, dual-platter, suspended turntable . . .

http://canadahifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Kronos-TT.jpg

[bobbasrah]

Not a creative tonearm, but the Kronos turntable is claimed to be the world’s first counter rotating, dual-platter, suspended turntable . . .

http://canadahifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Kronos-TT.jpg

$30,000 :stalks:

[BTH K10A]

IMHO The finest mono tonarm (and cartridge) ever made

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/naudio110991.jpg

[morris_minor]

IMHO The finest mono tonarm (and cartridge) ever made

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/naudio110991.jpg

That's a mean looking weapon! And the knife .. :lol:

[jostber]

The Russian Korvet tonearm:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_images/Korvet2.jpg

[Marco]

What's the cartridge then, Andy? :)

Jeez, that's one seriously fucked SP10!! :eek: :spew:

Marco.

[sq225917]

Not a creative tonearm, but the Kronos turntable is claimed to be the world’s first counter rotating, dual-platter, suspended turntable . . .



The first counter rotating platter was from a 47Labs design, all they's done is suspend the whole thing.

[BTH K10A]

What's the cartridge then, Andy? :)

Jeez, that's one seriously fucked SP10!! :eek: :spew:

Marco.

Cartridge is a Neumann DT51 Marco. The arm is a Neumann ZA29 There was also a DZT cartridge that has 2 styli.

The guy that owns that combo has the what is certainly the best collection of Hi Fi in the world so I think it's a deliberate statement.c

There an EMT 927 on this site that's sporting the mono ZA29 with DT51 and the stereo Z25 with a DST62. To me it's the ultimate combo.

http://homepage1.nifty.com/k_katoh/page002.html

[BTH K10A]

This arm was designed for the DL-103

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/a.jpg

[Marco]

Very nice, Andy. I've not seen one exactly like that before. Is it a 12-incher? If so, I'd have thought it was more common for 9" arms to be used in most broadcasting studios? :)

I'd love to find the headshell for sale somewhere, as I'd buy it like a shot (love shells which don't have ugly screws and nuts showing on the top, and where lead wires are hidden).

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Very nice, Andy. I've not seen one exactly like that before. Is it a 12-incher? If so, I'd have thought it was more common for 9" arms to be used in most broadcasting studios? :)

I'd love to find the headshell for sale somewhere, as I'd buy it like a shot (love shells which don't have ugly screws and nuts showing on the top, and where lead wires are hidden).

Marco.

It's got an effective length of 282mm, so roughly 11". Most broadcast or transcritption arms were 11 or 12 inches as there were 16" records about. Even EMT's "baby" 930 deck has a 10" arm.

The headshell is plastic and ultra light. It's also a but of a cult item in Japan so is hard to get hold of. I have one of the arms but without the Denn headshell. An ADC LMG-1 magnesium headshell works well enough though

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0817.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0818-1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/IMG_0819.jpg

[BTH K10A]

There's some better pics of the headshell on hifido Marco.

http://www.hifido.co.jp/KW/G0302/E/250-50/C10-49372-53081-00/

[MartinT]

Yuk - nasty plastic moulded thing!

[BTH K10A]

Yuk - nasty plastic moulded thing!

Yep, but highly sought after in Japan for it's synergy with the DL-103. It's all about the sound not the materials.

[Marco]

Thanks for the link, Andy. Most interesting....

What puzzles me is that, from experimenting with and using countless examples of DL-103s, for nearly 30 years, in countless different set-ups, a lightweight plastic headshell is the LAST thing I'd put it inside, in order to achieve sonic synergy!! :eek:

High-mass headshells (on a medium-mass arm) have always been the way. I suspect that the synergy achieved is more to do with between the headshell and the arm, and a 103, i.e. all three items working together as a unit, rather than simply the headshell and 103 itself...

I bet if you put that plastic headshell on, say, a Jelco SA-750, and fitted a 103 onto it, it would sound shite! Problem is, I doubt it would fit, as the Denon shell doesn't look as if it has a standard SME-type fitting...

Nice arm, btw. If you're ever looking to sell it, please give me first refusal, as it would be used on another T/T project! :cool:

Marco.

[Barry]

Thanks for the link, Andy. Most interesting....

What puzzles me is that, from experimenting with and using countless examples of DL-103s, for nearly 30 years, in countless different set-ups, a lightweight plastic headshell is the LAST thing I'd put it inside, in order to achieve sonic synergy!! :eek:

High-mass headshells (on a medium-mass arm) have always been the way. I suspect that the synergy achieved is more to do with between the headshell and the arm, and a 103, i.e. all three items working together as a unit, rather than simply the headshell and 103 itself...

I bet if you put that plastic headshell on, say, a Jelco SA-750, and fitted a 103 onto it, it would sound shite! Problem is, I doubt it would fit, as the Denon shell doesn't look as if it has a standard SME-type fitting...

Nice arm, btw. If you're ever looking to sell it, please give me first refusal, as it would be used on another T/T project! :cool:

Marco.

If Andy uses an ADC shell on his Denon arm, then it must use the SME/EIA bayonet coupling.

The Denon arm doesn't seem to have any provision to apply anti-skating bias. Is that true? :scratch:

[BTH K10A]

Thanks for the link, Andy. Most interesting....

What puzzles me is that, from experimenting with and using countless examples of DL-103s, for nearly 30 years, in countless different set-ups, a lightweight plastic headshell is the LAST thing I'd put it inside, in order to achieve sonic synergy!! :eek:

High-mass headshells (on a medium-mass arm) have always been the way. I suspect that the synergy achieved is more to do with between the headshell and the arm, and a 103, i.e. all three items working together as a unit, rather than simply the headshell and 103 itself...

I bet if you put that plastic headshell on, say, a Jelco SA-750, and fitted a 103 onto it, it would sound shite! Problem is, I doubt it would fit, as the Denon shell doesn't look as if it has a standard SME-type fitting...

Nice arm, btw. If you're ever looking to sell it, please give me first refusal, as it would be used on another T/T project! :cool:

Marco.

The headshell has the SME/Ortofon broadcast bayonet fitting with the locating pin on the top. The arm, like early SME's & Ortofons has slots both top and bottom, as does an Acos Lustre I have. I don't know if Jelco arms are similar?

To me, the arm is obviously a copy of an Ortofon RF297. The Japanese were very good at cloning good products. There were lots of Japanese cclones of the Gray Research tonearms.

I think you are right with the entire package but the japanese enthusiasts seem to use the headshell on other arms. I'm not sure what makes them so desirable but they are bloody hard to find.

No probs giving you 1st dibs Marco.

Andy

[Marco]

If Andy uses an ADC shell on his Denon arm, then it must use the SME/EIA bayonet coupling.


That's true. It just looks different - rather like the fitting on an EMT headshell. Perhaps it's just the angle that the picture was taken at? :)

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Ortofon had a number of different pin/bayonet configurations. This leaflet explains all

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/ortstereoscana.jpg

[BTH K10A]

If Andy uses an ADC shell on his Denon arm, then it must use the SME/EIA bayonet coupling.

The Denon arm doesn't seem to have any provision to apply anti-skating bias. Is that true? :scratch:

The DA-302 is like the transcription ortofon arms such as RF297, RM297, & RMG309 Barry

The theory is that at 11 or 12 inch lengths, anti skating is not necessary. I certainly had no problems with an RMG309.

[BTH K10A]

The forerunner of Martin's Dynavector

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/cff4_3.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/d101_3.jpg

[MartinT]

Good grief :stalks:

That looks sturdy enough to pull a trailer. Interesting double-tube design. Who made it?

[BTH K10A]

Good grief :stalks:

That looks sturdy enough to pull a trailer. Interesting double-tube design. Who made it?

General Electric. It was designed for the RPX cartridge which explains the hole in the top on the headshell.

Incindently, the RPX is a good buy for mono and still can hold its own against some very expensive cartridges.

[Barry]

Ortofon had a number of different pin/bayonet configurations. This leaflet explains all

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/ortstereoscana.jpg

To be accurate, Ortofon only provided arms with contact arrangements I and IV. They did provide some arms to EMT on an OEM basis, before EMT designed their own and these would have had the Neumann 'diamond' arrangement as shown in II.

[Barry]

The DA-302 is like the transcription Ortofon arms such as RF297, RM297, & RMG309 Barry

The theory is that at 11 or 12 inch lengths, anti skating is not necessary. I certainly had no problems with an RMG309.

Arms such as the RF297, RM297 and the RMG309 were designed before the neccessity for anti-skating was considered. All arms of that vintage: the Decca, Leak, Ferranti had no side thrust compensation. Even the Mark I SME when introduced had no compensation, though a retro-fit compensator was made available after John Crabbe suggested the 'falling weight' design. Since then retro-fittable compensators were made available for arms such as the Decca, and all later arms such as the Ortofon RS212, B&O STL, Hadcock, Audio Design (Keith Monks), Goldring L75 and Audio Technica came with such provision. In the case of the Ortofon RS212, the bias was factory set to suit Ortofon cartridges with elliptical stylii, though this could be adjusted by users to suit other cartridges.

The side thrust, or rotational torque created is a function of the offset distance of the stylus from a radial line from the arm pivot point, that makes a right angle with a line running tangential to the record groove at the point where the stylus touches the groove. The stylus to arm pivot distance forms the hypotenuse of this right-angle triangle. The length of the arm does indeed matter: the longer the arm, the greater the hypotenuse the greater this offset distance will be. The side thrust will depend on the tangential frictional force between the record groove and the stylus. This latter is dependant on the shape of the stylus and the tracking downforce. I suspect that with spherical-tipped stylii the frictional force might be less.

I have found that regardless of arm length bias compensation is definitely required, though I find that the amount of side thrust necessary is about half that recommended, especially with spherical tipped stylii.

[BTH K10A]

To be accurate, Ortofon only provided arms with contact arrangements I and IV. They did provide some arms to EMT on an OEM basis, before EMT designed their own and these would have had the Neumann 'diamond' arrangement as shown in II.

Ortofon arms could be ordered with any of the 5 different pin configurations. A Danish friend still has his fathers Delphon turntable with all the documentation and invoices. It has an Ortophon 12" arm that was supplied new with the EMT pin layout. He also has two spu cartridges in type A headshells that have EMT diamond connectors as well as an Neumann DST that I keep pestering him to sell me.

[Barry]

Ortofon arms could be ordered with any of the 5 different pin configurations. A Danish friend still has his fathers Delphon turntable with all the documentation and invoices. It has an Ortophon 12" arm that was supplied new with the EMT pin layout. He also has two spu cartridges in type A headshells that have EMT diamond connectors as well as an Neumann DST that I keep pestering him to sell me.

The Ortophon literature you show, a copy of which was supplied with my Ortophon SL15E cartridge, is titled "Arm Contact Standards", and clearly states that arrangement I applies to "All Ortofon arms except Type A and SSM" Type A arms i.e. RMA- would have used the EMT arrangement (II).

I don't know how old your friends turntable is but I suspect that the RMA-309 arm would have been the same as that supplied to EMT for their 927 turntables (for which the arm designation was RMA-927) and designed to receive the early SPU cartridges mounted in the A type headshell, with of course, the EMT diamond contact arrangement.

[BTH K10A]

The Ortophon literature you show, a copy of which was supplied with my Ortophon SL15E cartridge, is titled "Arm Contact Standards", and clearly states that arrangement I applies to "All Ortofon arms except Type A and SSM" Type A arms i.e. RMA- would have used the EMT arrangement (II).

I don't know how old your friends turntable is but I suspect that the RMA-309 arm would have been the same as that supplied to EMT for their 927 turntables (for which the arm designation was RMA-927) and designed to receive the early SPU cartridges mounted in the A type headshell, with of course, the EMT diamond contact arrangement.

Barry, I made a call and checked. Christian's tonearm is the RMG309 (stereo) not the RMA309 (mono) I previously stated, with an effective length of 309mm. The EMT's used either an RMA297 (mono) or RMF297 (stereo) with an effective lenght of 297mm

The tonarme with the "A" designation were mono and had two pins only so naturally none of the four pin configurations are relevant. Apparently all the Ortofon stereo arms could be ordered in any of the four pin configurations.

Andy

[Barry]

Barry, I made a call and checked. Christian's tonearm is the RMG309 (stereo) not the RMA309 (mono) I previously stated, with an effective length of 309mm. The EMT's used either an RMA297 (mono) or RMF297 (stereo) with an effective length of 297mm

The tonarm with the "A" designation were mono and had two pins only so naturally none of the four pin configurations are relevant. Apparently all the Ortofon stereo arms could be ordered in any of the four pin configurations.

Andy

Hi Andy,

I had a look at my 1971 edition of the Hi Fi yearbook, and was interested to read that the EMT 930 listed came with an Ortofon RMA229. The cartridge is an EMT, so I summise the 'A' designation suggests an arm designed for the short type A headshell. However the stylus to bayonet interface distance for the type A headshells, is a little less than that of the EMT TSD-G headshell.

This may account for the designation '229', however whilst 229mm is a little over 9", Ortofon arm numbers denote the distance from arm pivot to turntable platter centre, thus 212 for their (9" arm) and 309 for the 12" arms.

All of this could well be futile speculation, since as as you mention, arms supplied to EMT by Ortofon for the EMT927 turntable had the designation '927'. I'm unclear what the 'F' stood for; the 'G' was used for arms designed to use the later 'whale'-style headshell, and empty EMT shells are designated TSD-G. I suspect 'G' is a generic designation for headshell.


You mention coverting your friend's Neumann DSM 62 cartridge. I might have mentioned that one appeared on eBay a couple of years ago. Virtually no information was given on the condition of the cartridge (or stylus), apart from the fact that the vendor had checked for coil continuity (without saying how).

The starting bid was set at £1000, but worse than that, all potential bidders had to introduce themselves to the vendor to satisfy him they were 'worthy' bidders. Not surprisingly, the auction ended with no bids having been offered and it disappeared from sight!

Regards

[BTH K10A]

Hi Andy,

I had a look at my 1971 edition of the Hi Fi yearbook, and was interested to read that the EMT 930 listed came with an Ortofon RMA229. The cartridge is an EMT, so I summise the 'A' designation suggests an arm designed for the short type A headshell. However the stylus to bayonet interface distance for the type A headshells, is a little less than that of the EMT TSD-G headshell.

This may account for the designation '229', however whilst 229mm is a little over 9", Ortofon arm numbers denote the distance from arm pivot to turntable platter centre, thus 212 for their (9" arm) and 309 for the 12" arms.

All of this could well be futile speculation, since as as you mention, arms supplied to EMT by Ortofon for the EMT927 turntable had the designation '927'. I'm unclear what the 'F' stood for; the 'G' was used for arms designed to use the later 'whale'-style headshell, and empty EMT shells are designated TSD-G. I suspect 'G' is a generic designation for headshell.


You mention coverting your friend's Neumann DSM 62 cartridge. I might have mentioned that one appeared on eBay a couple of years ago. Virtually no information was given on the condition of the cartridge (or stylus), apart from the fact that the vendor had checked for coil continuity (without saying how).

The starting bid was set at £1000, but worse than that, all potential bidders had to introduce themselves to the vendor to satisfy him they were 'worthy' bidders. Not surprisingly, the auction ended with no bids having been offered and it disappeared from sight!

Regards

Yes you're right. I dug out my copy of steffano Passini's book and the 930 came with Ortofon RK229 mono and RMA229 stereo. The longer arms were RK297 mono and RMA297 stereo

The 1961 hifi yearbook has the RKG309 as the mono arm and the RMG309 as the stereo arm

There is also an RMF297 arm which usually has the Ortofon/SME pin layout although I have seen one with the EMT layout.

Lyrec used Ortofon arms in the 297 length on their AG40-1 and AG40-2 turntables. I think this may have been the RMF297 but cannot confirm this

Incidentlu The ESL version was designated 310

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/eslcscana.jpg

Delphon used Ortofon 212 and 309 arms, normally with Ortofon/SME pin layout.

As you know, the headshells were short A type and the longer G shell. I think G as used by Ortofon and EMT denotes a headshell that will accept other makes of cartridges, although Ortofon used the additional space for a SUT.

The Nuumann DST and later DST62 cartridges fetch silly money. I was watching a DST on ebay in 2002 that was in Brighton. The seller just described it as an "old cartridge" I was busy, forgot to bid and was gutted when it sold for £4.95.

Regards

Andy

[The Grand Wazoo]

As everyone knows, my favourite pastime is reviving dead threads, I thought I'd drag out this one.
The reason being, that I spotted this thing on Ebay - does anyone know anything about the Audio Innovations tonearm with no counterweight (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDIO-INNOVATION-COUNTERWEIGHTLESS-TONEARM-ULTRA-RARE-/110886845739?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d15efd2b#ht_1011wt_1344) & if so, then how does it work?

Is it similar to the 47 Labs one but with an enclosed weight or does itr work with springs or something?

47 Labs RS-A1:
http://www.dagogo.com/assets/images/image/ANALOG/RS%20Lab%20RS-A1%20tonearm/RSLabRSA1-1.jpg

[MartinT]

Interesting, that AI arm. Never seen it before. There must be a spring in there (or hydraulics?) acting in reverse to the normal tracking weight application. Possibly to keep the effective mass low, but the arm looks a bit of a heavyweight.

[walpurgis]

My guess would be adjustable opposing magnets. Geoff.

[Barry]

Well there is something going on beyond the vertical plane pivot-point. Can't see any obvious adjustment, but the counterbalance/VTF setting could be effected through counter-opposing magnets.

[Reid Malenfant]

My guess would be adjustable opposing magnets. Geoff.
I was going to discount that idea, but the Neodymium magnets around these days could probably do that job admirably.

There would have to be some clever system to keep them from moving too far apart though or it'd find itself with tracking weight shifting due to the arm moving.

[Barry]

I was going to discount that idea, but the Neodymium magnets around these days could probably do that job admirably.

There would have to be some clever system to keep them from moving too far apart though or it'd find itself with tracking weight shifting due to the arm moving.

No, they would move with the arm in the horizontal plane.

[Reid Malenfant]

No, they would move with the arm in the horizontal plane.
I wasn't think of the horizontal plane Barry, I was thinking more to do with the vertical plane.

If the magnets moved more than a little distance from each other then they'd be less effective & tracking weight would alter. Maybe with modern rare earth magnets like Neodymium this wouldn't be too much of a problem, as they are incredibly strong :)

[pure sound]

That arm was called the Delta Inertia. I'd guess maybe 150-200 were made? We'd been doing some experiments running arms without counterweights but suspending the armtube via a spring or rubber band from a bracket that rotated with the tube across the record. We got some very interesting results particularly with regard to the bass performance. I remember having an Odssey RP1XG running like this for several months giving incredible bass, far better than it ever sounded with its own counterweights fitted!

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/cweightlessarm.jpg

The Delta Inertia ended up with a sprung arrangement internally that did the same job.

There were a couple of issues with it. One was that it had to be perfectly upright and production arms were actually fitted with a spirit level in the top of the vertical pillar. More of these arms were sold to people with fixed plinth rather than suspended decks although it could be made to work on a suspended deck with some care. The other was that the vtf applied varied with height ie where the cartridge was, so it had to be set exactly at the record surface.

But set right & with a good mc it was capable of great results. It stopped being made because we were warned by another friendly tonearm maker that it was likely to prematurely wear out the suspension on high compliance cartridges & ultimately the company didn't want the potential hassle if that proved to be true. However, we never did have any complaints that that had occurred.

I think that the way the arm worked meant that it had a very high effective mass which probably accounted for why low compliance mc's worked so well in it & perhaps why the bass performance was extraordinary.

It wasn't that expensive either. I can't remember exactly but I think the basic copper wired version was <£200 and the AN Silver wired one was more like £400. I think this particular seller is being optimistic re the price although I suppose they are quite rare and a good proportion of them ended up in Denmark.

[walpurgis]

Using conical magnets with opposing fields, sitting one inside the other you'd possibly have predictable forces over a wider range and produce a centering action into the bargain!

[Reid Malenfant]

Looks like it was done with a spring of all things :eyebrows:

Unless I'm mistaken (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=330872&postcount=447) :scratch:

Nuts :eyebrows:

[MartinT]

Looks like it was done with a spring of all things

See post #126 ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

See post #126 ;)
Lucky guess :D After all the very same would happen with the tracking weight as with magnets, the further out it goes from horizontal, the more error there would be ;)

Something tells me you have some experience of this Martin :eyebrows:

At it with the pillar drill my friend :)

[pure sound]

IIRC there was a bar running down from the end of the armtube and an adjustable spring inside the horizontal tube beneath the main arm tube which attached to the bottom end of the bar. There were never any issues with resonance of the spring and the frequency it would have worked at would have been very low. It was resisting quite a weight working on a fairly long lever.

[Marco]

It's a pretty quirky design, but I'm not a fan of these 'complicated' and rather frail looking things.

Give me a nice chunky, high-mass broadcast arm, any day!

Marco.

[pure sound]

I suspect it would've been higher mass than any broadcast arm precisely because there was no counterweight. You try lifting & moving your armtube about without the counterweight balancing it! You'll get the idea.

[Barry]

I suspect it would've been higher mass than any broadcast arm precisely because there was no counterweight. You try lifting & moving your armtube about without the counterweight balancing it! You'll get the idea.

:scratch:? But you haven't got a massy inertial counterweight on your arm. The mass of the cartridge is counterbalanced by the 'negative playing weight' provided by the spring/rubber band.

True, it might have had strange handling properties and 'felt' slightly odd, but it would definitely have had a lower effective mass (= the moment of inertia of the arm about the pivot point, divided by the square of the arm pivot-to-stylus distance) than a conventional arm using a counterweight.

[Marco]

Sure, I get ya, but it's just too 'fiddly' looking and 'fussy', for me. I prefer something rather more simplistic and 'brutal' :eyebrows:

If we're talking about creative tonearms, how about this rather stylish looking beast from Scheu Analog (Classic MKII):


http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6010/classic4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/classic4.jpg/)


Now that's a sexy looking arm! Interesting to see a 103, strapped to it. I can imagine that it'd be a killer combo.

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Mark & Martin:


Originally Posted by MartinT
See post #126

Reid BadElephant:
Lucky guess

Lucky guess, my arse!
See my post #125

[The Grand Wazoo]

Thanks for clearing that up Guy, much appreciated.

[MartinT]

Lucky guess, my arse!
See my post #125

Oops! :rfl:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hehehe!

[Reid Malenfant]

Mark & Martin:



Lucky guess, my arse!
See my post #125
:D :eyebrows:

[nat8808]

That arm was called the Delta Inertia. I'd guess maybe 150-200 were made? We'd been doing some experiments running arms without counterweights but suspending the armtube via a spring or rubber band from a bracket that rotated with the tube across the record. We got some very interesting results particularly with regard to the bass performance. I remember having an Odssey RP1XG running like this for several months giving incredible bass, far better than it ever sounded with its own counterweights fitted!

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/cweightlessarm.jpg

The Delta Inertia ended up with a sprung arrangement internally that did the same job.

There were a couple of issues with it. One was that it had to be perfectly upright and production arms were actually fitted with a spirit level in the top of the vertical pillar. More of these arms were sold to people with fixed plinth rather than suspended decks although it could be made to work on a suspended deck with some care. The other was that the vtf applied varied with height ie where the cartridge was, so it had to be set exactly at the record surface.

But set right & with a good mc it was capable of great results. It stopped being made because we were warned by another friendly tonearm maker that it was likely to prematurely wear out the suspension on high compliance cartridges & ultimately the company didn't want the potential hassle if that proved to be true. However, we never did have any complaints that that had occurred.

I think that the way the arm worked meant that it had a very high effective mass which probably accounted for why low compliance mc's worked so well in it & perhaps why the bass performance was extraordinary.

It wasn't that expensive either. I can't remember exactly but I think the basic copper wired version was <£200 and the AN Silver wired one was more like £400. I think this particular seller is being optimistic re the price although I suppose they are quite rare and a good proportion of them ended up in Denmark.

Emporium Hifi have one now, though missing the bubble level:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ULTRA-RARE-AUDIO-INNOVATIONS-Ai-TONEARM-/251153612073

There's also a Korvet for sale on there too: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Legendary-Great-Soviet-turntable-KORVET-038-/200834895656

[nat8808]

Here's a nice variation on the Well Tempered theme:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1208/img7361.jpg

Lithuanian design I think, the "Mozart" , this one being Mile Nestorovic's old arm and Kyoccera deck according to the owner (on vinylengine) as Mile died a few years ago.

[nat8808]

Nothing special in terms of working design, but I love the Sumiko MDC 800 for it's angles and details. They were all made (500? of them) by one machinest, every part:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5416/sg101113.jpg

This was my arm until I sold it.. but then found one in better condition for the same price (that included a broken VdH MC1B !) :yay:

[sq225917]

The Sumiko is a 'rite piece of kit'. I love that arm very Breuer.

[hifi_dave]

Back in the 80's we sold a handful of those fitted to Oracles with a Koetsu on the end and very good they were too. I have an unused MDC around here somewhere..:scratch:

I do believe it was conceived as a Breuer copy.

[awkwardbydesign]

I want this. I don't care if it doesn't work, I'd hide the real one behind a curtain, just to mess with peoples' heads!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyDeDeVv-SY9YIEOpb2VniiYPaJKkla6E1GGoLHc8jvfc0nu4F

[shane]

How can this have got four pages in without the Thales? ( http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=product )

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/thales/1.jpg

Not to mention it's little brother:

http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7023/6696016515_2ed72dbb2f.jpg

and its great grandpa:

http://www.stefanopasini.it/images/Garrard%20Zero%20100.jpg

[nat8808]

Back in the 80's we sold a handful of those fitted to Oracles with a Koetsu on the end and very good they were too. I have an unused MDC around here somewhere..:scratch:

I do believe it was conceived as a Breuer copy.

The old OSK as I've read dealers of the time call the combo. Remember reading on here Howard Popeck saying he just missed out on some special prize from Absolute Sounds for selling the most.

Both of mine have been from Oracles, the first I sold the deck on and my current one, I recognised the buyer of a combo on eBay, got in contact and he said he didn't want the Sumiko so left it with the seller for a discount. So I stepped in to err, help out! This one still had the originally supplied VdH modified EMT cart attached, the MC1B albeit with broken stylus -hence it has the lighter H counterweight which is more suited to my other carts.

It is a Breuer copy by the guy who designed SOTA turntables, different bearing material though as he thought the Breuer would suffer from moisture absorption, something like PTFE on the Breuer. He was inspired by this machinist he knew which gave him the confidence to go ahead and design it. Length-wise it must be closer to a Breuer Type 5 than 8 -think the 8 is 10.5" like the Brinkmann.

[nat8808]

I want this. I don't care if it doesn't work, I'd hide the real one behind a curtain, just to mess with peoples' heads!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyDeDeVv-SY9YIEOpb2VniiYPaJKkla6E1GGoLHc8jvfc0nu4F

I'm hoping the line above the cart to the main part of the arm is string and you lower the cart onto the record like a crane..

[nat8808]

Here's another one for you, from the designer of the Mission Mechanic, Mick Gray that he made more recently:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/bigmoog/IMGP07662.jpg

And another of the same but later, all home made can you believe, including the turntable!:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/darkenergy.jpg

[MartinT]

Good grief, that's serious engineering.

[shane]

I want this. I don't care if it doesn't work, I'd hide the real one behind a curtain, just to mess with peoples' heads!
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyDeDeVv-SY9YIEOpb2VniiYPaJKkla6E1GGoLHc8jvfc0nu4F

Any further information?

[awkwardbydesign]

Any further information?
I saw this ages ago, as a design exercise I think. I had to search for the image, but I'll try to rediscover the original discussion.
Actually, if you look at it, pressing down the counterweight would lift the cart.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Tonarm_hanging_1.jpg
Here we go- http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=903113&VT=T

[MartinT]

:scratch: what on earth is the function of the rollers? It seems that they would roll at 90 degrees to the direction of the groove.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I took them to be weights applying the downforce rather than something in contact with the record. If you think about it a dangling headshell can only rely on its own iintrinsic mass to apply tracking force.

[MartinT]

Ah, could be Chris. It looks akin to Fred Flintstone's car!

[The Grand Wazoo]

I know, weird, eh?!

[awkwardbydesign]

:scratch: what on earth is the function of the rollers? It seems that they would roll at 90 degrees to the direction of the groove.
I think they are for VTA. Cross weights for azimuth would be good. If any of it is good!

[chelsea]

I saw this ages ago, as a design exercise I think. I had to search for the image, but I'll try to rediscover the original discussion.
Actually, if you look at it, pressing down the counterweight would lift the cart.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Tonarm_hanging_1.jpg
Here we go- http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=903113&VT=T

Pretty sure they were used in flash gordon.

[nat8808]

the rollers on the side must be for tracking weight and also spaced to give a rotational innertia. I'd guess the weight at the back is such that it is the same as the cart and headshell minus the tracking force. Plus the tension in the strings/wires will provide resistance to spinning so helped by the weight too.

All Bamboo by the looks of it.

[RobHolt]

My favourite arm bar none is the original Mission 774.

Many think it's ugly, but I think it's the perfect example of form perfectly following function.

To this day it offers a unique combination of low moving mass, rigidity and full adjustability in all areas including azimuth plus of course optional fluid damping.
I did some rewiring and restoration on mine and it looks and sounds like new.

Sonically it's fast, nimble and slightly accentuates midband leading edges. I like the effect which is quite similar to the Linn Ittok, but I rate the 774 better in the upper ranges with less drive than the Linn at the bottom.

Rob

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/zippy670/2755ED7223804AE087DCD7F877AB7BE5-1.jpg

[sq225917]

Here's another one for you, from the designer of the Mission Mechanic, Mick Gray that he made more recently:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/bigmoog/IMGP07662.jpg

And another of the same but later, all home made can you believe, including the turntable!:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/darkenergy.jpg

I truly love his designs it's such a shame they aren't commercially available. Do you know if he's still based in Sheffield Nat?

[Marco]

His kit probably sounds great, but the aesthetics are rather too stark and 'brutal' looking, for me!

Marco.

[dowser]

My favourite arm bar none is the original Mission 774.

Many think it's ugly, but I think it's the perfect example of form perfectly following function.

To this day it offers a unique combination of low moving mass, rigidity and full adjustability in all areas including azimuth plus of course optional fluid damping.
I did some rewiring and restoration on mine and it looks and sounds like new.

Sonically it's fast, nimble and slightly accentuates midband leading edges. I like the effect which is quite similar to the Linn Ittok, but I rate the 774 better in the upper ranges with less drive than the Linn at the bottom.

Rob

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/zippy670/2755ED7223804AE087DCD7F877AB7BE5-1.jpg

Rob - is that photo yours? Looks like a solidly coupled counterweight version, same as mine? Think they are pretty rare (sold as an arm/deck combo with the later Mission deck I believe).

Lovely arms, can't see me ever letting mine go.

Richard

[RobHolt]

Rob - is that photo yours? Looks like a solidly coupled counterweight version, same as mine? Think they are pretty rare (sold as an arm/deck combo with the later Mission deck I believe).

Lovely arms, can't see me ever letting mine go.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Yes that's my 774 though pictured before being spruced-up and rewired, plus a fresh length of low cap interconnect fitted.
I was lucky enough to also get the accessory box containing finger lift, solid counterweight, three damping paddles, both bias weights and all the screws and keys.

I've fitted the standard counterweight with fresh sorbothane, which is black, but cut a thin slice of the original yellow stuff to 'skin' the front so that it looks original. I like preserving the details :)

The 773 cartridge i mentioned via email arrived today and looks fine other than it has no diamond - fallen clean off. It's the original one with boron cantilever just like we had back when I was wee boy, so I'm looking forward to getting it working again.
VDH will charge £300-£600 for a service depending on work required. Bit steep I think if it ends up near the top end. I'm getting some other quotes and will keep you posted.

[dowser]

Wow - VDH are expensive!

Richard

[Johnnie7]

updated
2012 model pu7 arm

:)

[Beobloke]

updated
2012 model pu7 arm

:)

Ooooo that's lovely... :drool:

[Johnnie7]

thanks m8ty

:)

[walpurgis]

Hi Richard,

Yes that's my 774 though pictured before being spruced-up and rewired, plus a fresh length of low cap interconnect fitted.
I was lucky enough to also get the accessory box containing finger lift, solid counterweight, three damping paddles, both bias weights and all the screws and keys.

I've fitted the standard counterweight with fresh sorbothane, which is black, but cut a thin slice of the original yellow stuff to 'skin' the front so that it looks original. I like preserving the details :)

The 773 cartridge i mentioned via email arrived today and looks fine other than it has no diamond - fallen clean off. It's the original one with boron cantilever just like we had back when I was wee boy, so I'm looking forward to getting it working again.
VDH will charge £300-£600 for a service depending on work required. Bit steep I think if it ends up near the top end. I'm getting some other quotes and will keep you posted.

Hi Richard & Rob,

I swear by the mission 774 too. It ran rings round the Ittok it replaced.

I have three, one of which is kept for spares. All of these have the de-coupled counterweight.

Is there much difference soundwise between the solid weight and the de-coupled?

Geoff.

[dowser]

I've never heard a de-coupled one Geoff, only my solid one. Sorry :)

Richard

[RobHolt]

Hi Richard & Rob,

I swear by the mission 774 too. It ran rings round the Ittok it replaced.

I have three, one of which is kept for spares. All of these have the de-coupled counterweight.

Is there much difference soundwise between the solid weight and the de-coupled?

Geoff.

Hi Geoff,

I can't tell any difference, though my decoupled version is very slightly lower mass, perhaps because I fitted fresh sorbothane.

The solid weight lacks the rear thumbscrew which is a shame.

Rob

[walpurgis]

Does anybody know what the thread is on the 774 counterweight's threaded shaft. I may have a bash at turning up a solid weight on my lathe.

[Yomanze]

Anything from Helius really:

Omega:
http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/_wp_generated/wpc271bdeb_0f.jpg

Even my much more humble 10" Helius Scorpio 4 looks significantly more interesting than equivalently priced products:

http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/_wp_generated/wpefbbbf40.png

[MartinT]

But not the Helius Aureus. Worst built pile of shite I've ever had the misfortune to own.