View Full Version : Just what has a Step Up Transformer added to your system?
Wakefield Turntables
05-12-2011, 20:19
I've currently got the Audiotechnica AT2000T sitting in my system.
I've noticed some of the old cliche such as improved microdynamics and more "sparkle" to percussion. I would love to hear the experiences of other users, Marco, Martin T what about you guys. Secondly how long would you say it takes to burn a SUT in? I've had this one for about a week and it has about 15 hours so far. :cool:
I just got one really helps on the 103 in my system, more depth detail and rocks well too
The Grand Wazoo
05-12-2011, 21:23
Secondly how long would you say it takes to burn a SUT in? I've had this one for about a week and it has about 15 hours so far. :cool:
John Chapman of Bent Audio has written a thing or two about burning in SUT's & if you search for a little while you'll certainly find instructions on how to set up your own 'cooker.'
I also use a SUT with my Denon DL103, I have no idea what difference it make compared to an active set-up as I only have MM input on my amp. I do think it sounds very clear.
I've compared SUT versus active stages several times and came to the conclusion some time ago that SUT is the only way to get the best out of a cartridge. Yes to microdynamics, but also a major uplift in macrodynamics, depth and width of soundstage, fine detail, upper end extension and a reality and vividness that amp stages seem to lose. Also, let's not forget that by improved impedance matching, using a SUT gives lower levels of noise overall.
My Choir Audio Hashimotos sounded good new, but improved gradually over a period of about four weeks of use.
My Choir Audio Hashimotos sounded good new, but improved gradually over a period of about four weeks of use.
I think I may give a Choir Audio Hashimoto SUT a spin sometime in the New Year, I currently have one of Tim de Paravicini's TX-4s.
The main problem is that SUT's are somewhat like cartridges in that they are easy to take delivery of and blend in easily bypassing the SWMBO big box in the hallway detector :D
Andrew
:lol: mine didn't even notice the TV had changed until I pointed it out to her.
I've compared SUT versus active stages several times and came to the conclusion some time ago that SUT is the only way to get the best out of a cartridge. Yes to microdynamics, but also a major uplift in macrodynamics, depth and width of soundstage, fine detail, upper end extension and a reality and vividness that amp stages seem to lose. Also, let's not forget that by improved impedance matching, using a SUT gives lower levels of noise overall.
I haven't tried that many, but I can't say I have found any of those advantages with a SUT.
I'm surprised, Mark. My Whest PS.30R has a rather good MC input stage but the Hashimotos absolutely trounce it for sound quality with it set for MM.
Hi Mark,
I haven't tried that many, but I can't say I have found any of those advantages with a SUT.
Was that in your own (Naim-based) system or in someone else's, or both, and with what cartridges? :)
My experience also mirrors that of Martin, but so much of this is very cartridge/system dependant. I can't imagine Troikas, and such like (which you use) benefiting much from an SUT, quite simply because they were never intended to be used that way.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
06-12-2011, 20:45
John Chapman of Bent Audio has written a thing or two about burning in SUT's & if you search for a little while you'll certainly find instructions on how to set up your own 'cooker.'
I've already done a bit of research on the AOS forum and read some of the threads regarding SUT's including the one about Bent Audio, I like the fact they do a silver version. I have a SME V which is very "damp" but with a bright cartridge and silver cabling it sounds lively enough to my lug ole's. I like the way the Bent's have a simple pair of binding posts for diodes. I must admit I need to do a hell of a lot more reading before I make a decision on which SUT i'm getting. I think the ortofon SUT's could be next as i love ortofon cartridges and I know they work well with my V
I've compared SUT versus active stages several times and came to the conclusion some time ago that SUT is the only way to get the best out of a cartridge. Yes to microdynamics, but also a major uplift in macrodynamics, depth and width of soundstage, fine detail, upper end extension and a reality and vividness that amp stages seem to lose. Also, let's not forget that by improved impedance matching, using a SUT gives lower levels of noise overall.
My Choir Audio Hashimotos sounded good new, but improved gradually over a period of about four weeks of use.
:yesbruv: you've nailed it! My soundstage is "black", I love that cliche! Soundstage does appear wider, macrodynamics do seem more vivid. I need to play with the cartridge loading on the back of my phonostage, this may garner better results. The cartridge output on my Audiotechnica cart is close to my sugden phonostage but could be better. I'm in the market for a new phonostage and cartridge so things may get even better!
If you're looking for a new phono stage then put the Whest on your list. I am amazed at how good it is for the money.
Patrick Nash
07-12-2011, 10:56
In my Nagra VPS the 11 dB step up transformers are there as standard for the MC i/p, and these are designed by Nagra themselves. It might be an interesting exercise to try some other aftermarket step up on the MM i/p and compare the sonic differences, but I certainly won't buy one out of idle curiosity.
Wakefield Turntables
07-12-2011, 19:52
In my Nagra VPS the 11 dB step up transformers are there as standard for the MC i/p, and these are designed by Nagra themselves. It might be an interesting exercise to try some other aftermarket step up on the MM i/p and compare the sonic differences, but I certainly won't buy one out of idle curiosity.
Get round to your local hi-fi superstore and audition one and then report back. :eyebrows:
I've compared SUT versus active stages several times and came to the conclusion some time ago that SUT is the only way to get the best out of a cartridge. Yes to microdynamics, but also a major uplift in macrodynamics, depth and width of soundstage, fine detail, upper end extension and a reality and vividness that amp stages seem to lose. Also, let's not forget that by improved impedance matching, using a SUT gives lower levels of noise overall.
My Choir Audio Hashimotos sounded good new, but improved gradually over a period of about four weeks of use.
I must second Martin's observations. The Choir Audio Hashimoto H-7 SUT really improved the SQ coming out of my Conrad Johnson Premier 15 phono stage when used with my Zyx Airy 3X MC cart. To be fair this phono did not quite have the gain for a 0.34mv MC like the Zyx, but I did get gains in noise, dynamics, and in the treble extension and refinement. The CJ-Hashimoto, totally blew away the Modwright SWP phono I had, which was set up for a low output MC...
I must second Martin's observations. The Choir Audio Hashimoto H-7 SUT really improved the SQ coming out of my Conrad Johnson Premier 15 phono stage when used with my Zyx Airy 3X MC cart. To be fair this phono did not quite have the gain for a 0.34mv MC like the Zyx, but I did get gains in noise, dynamics, and in the treble extension and refinement. The CJ-Hashimoto, totally blew away the Modwright SWP phono I had, which was set up for a low output MC...
Excellent news as I am thinking of possibly acquiring a CJ Premier 15 later next year :)
Andrew
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2011, 15:16
I must second Martin's observations. The Choir Audio Hashimoto H-7 SUT really improved the SQ coming out of my Conrad Johnson Premier 15 phono stage when used with my Zyx Airy 3X MC cart. To be fair this phono did not quite have the gain for a 0.34mv MC like the Zyx, but I did get gains in noise, dynamics, and in the treble extension and refinement. The CJ-Hashimoto, totally blew away the Modwright SWP phono I had, which was set up for a low output MC...
Just where in the uk supplies the Hashimoto SUT?
Nowhere, Andrew. Only Choir Audio in the USA seem to make a SUT using the Hashimoto HM-7 but their build quality and service is superb. I can give you contact details for John Parker if you're interested.
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2011, 16:36
Please do, its another one on the list! I'm going to be trialling ortofon after I recieve my SR7 from Paul Hynes.
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2011, 18:36
recieved ! :cool:
Excellent news as I am thinking of possibly acquiring a CJ Premier 15 later next year :)
Andrew
This is a top notch phono stage. I have the MK II version with the CJ teflon cap upgrade, and it sounds fabulous. With the Hashimoto trafos, it is dead silent even with its 75db of gain, and has killer soundstage, dynamics, extension, refinement.... I could go on...
I ended up putting cryoed new manufacture Mullards for the 12AX7s, and cyro 6GK5 NOS Mullards from tubeman, see the article for more on this phono stage
I was waffling on buying it, and when discussing it with Jeff Dorgay, he threatened to buy it out from under me if I didn't get it... :)
http://www.10audio.com/cj_prem15-2.htm
Get it, you won't be sorry. ;)
Wakefield Turntables
10-12-2011, 17:26
This is the next SUT I'm about to audition http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=313&Itemid=347 but I'm going to probably do this sometime after January because I want to get my new power supply bedded in so I can appreciate how my new system will be sounding before adding an additonal piece of equipment. :cool:
Reid Malenfant
10-12-2011, 17:30
Have any of you chaps with SUTs thought about modifying them so you can use a balanced connection straight from the cartridge?
I mean at the voltages we are talking about a balanced connection should be noticeably superior ;) It should make the front end even quieter due to the inherent nature of the balanced connection rejecting interference & mains hum :)
Wakefield Turntables
10-12-2011, 17:51
I dont think I've seen a SUT with a balanaced connection yet, mind you i've not done extensive research! I must admit that this would make a lot of sense considering my speakers have balanced interconnects :lol:
My system is balanced throughout except for the cartridge connections, and speakers of course. I think that a balanced SUT connection would require centre tapped transformers but I'm trying to get my head around it. How would you wire it, Mark?
Reid Malenfant
10-12-2011, 18:23
Dead easy Martin & you don't need the transformer to be centre tapped ;)
I'll get a drawing done for you. You could even have balanced output from the SUT to your phono stage :eyebrows:
Interesting idea, Mark! I shall follow with interest :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
10-12-2011, 18:41
Ok, this should explain it... You may need to connect ground to the transformer casing as well, but I didn't include that on the drawing.
The first pic at the top is single ended in & out. The picture below is balanced in & single ended out. To make the second balanced output would simply be done by breaking the output of the transformer to the ground & feeding a cold out the same as the input wiring ;) Obviously you'll need to run fully balanced cable right through to the pickup arm to take advantage of this.
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8714/single20ended202620bala.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/single20ended202620bala.jpg/)
Yes, it really is that simple :eyebrows:
E2A:- Input is on the left hand side. The terminal marked "hot" is simply the wire that connected to the centre of the original phono plug. The wire marked cold is the one that was connected to the screen of the original single ended phono cable, which now connects to the second wire in the balanced cable.
Just to let you know that I will be using this system with a pair of partridge SUTs that I have here. Means rewiring the TT but it's got to be worth doing when talking about 0.3mV from a DL103 ;)
Yep - that makes sense. You're just floating it, effectively. I'll have to do some circuit testing to see if the arm earths the return wires at any point.
Reid Malenfant
10-12-2011, 23:54
Yep - that makes sense. You're just floating it, effectively.
:thumbsup: Yes, but as both hot & cold feeds from the cartridge will now both be inside the screen then any interference will now affect them equally & will be cancelled at the transformer. If not cancelled then seriously reduced in comparison to single ended input.
I know you know this Martin, but others don't - so it's worth blowing a trumpet about :eyebrows: Common mode interference is just about wiped out...
The Grand Wazoo
11-12-2011, 01:09
I've always wondered why more is not made of the fact that an arm and cartridge are effectively a balanced system. It seems foolish to waste that potential by sticking it into a conventionally wired amp.
I've heard a couple of balanced phono stages & they both seemed superb.
Are your Bent Audio SUTs configurable for balanced operation, Chris?
The Grand Wazoo
11-12-2011, 12:49
No, not at all - nor are my pre/power amps balanced!
I was introduced to the idea of this through a little balanced phono stage made by a company from Lincoln called HiQ. I never owned it, but it was an aspiration (still is I suppose).
Wakefield Turntables
11-12-2011, 17:40
Are your Bent Audio SUTs configurable for balanced operation, Chris?
Funny you should mention this I intend to get in contact with Bent Audio and see if this upgrade could be achieved. I've had a look at there SUT and like its flexibility. I'm probably also going to get into contact with J7 at Audio origami and see what he can do with my Tonearm. :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
12-12-2011, 22:19
RIGHT!
Been on t'email to Bent Audio, he no longer makes SUT's :steam: But I've been recommended http://www.intactaudio.com/tran.html, has anyone heard of them?
Andy
RIGHT!
Been on t'email to Bent Audio, he no longer makes SUT's :steam:
Oh dear, there goes the possibility of Hashimoto transformers for my SPU! :doh:
Did they give you a reason, Andrew, why they're no longer doing SUTs?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
13-12-2011, 21:11
Marco,
i got an email back saying simply that they had stopped making them I think it was a problem with the supply of transformers. But intactaudio seem to do a similar service and the guy that owns bent audio recommended them so that cant be all bad. My current plan is to get my new SR7 power supply and burn it in. Meantime I'm gonna think about getting a Ortofon black http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=261&Itemid=269. I'm also gonna do my homework and then plump for a custom made sut specifically for the ortofon black probably with balanced input and output and silver wound transformers. Meantime i've got a few small upgrades to the 1210 over the new year :eyebrows:
andy
Oh dear, there goes the possibility of Hashimoto transformers for my SPU! :doh:
Did they give you a reason, Andrew, why they're no longer doing SUTs?
Marco.
I thought it was Choir Audio rather than Bent Audio that used the Hashimoto transformers - there may be hope for your SPU yet.
Andrew
Marco,
i got an email back saying simply that they had stopped making them I think it was a problem with the supply of transformers. But intactaudio seem to do a similar service and the guy that owns bent audio recommended them so that cant be all bad.
Yup, problem is, it was the Hashimoto transformers that made it special. Who knows whether those other ones will be as good? I think it's rather doubtful...
Not to worry, it narrows my SUT shortlist down now to one of these:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2450/t1stk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/t1stk.jpg/)
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/925/auditorium23homage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/auditorium23homage.jpg/)
Or one of these:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6143/st80secontentimage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/st80secontentimage.jpg/)
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9655/st8020se20back20white20.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/st8020se20back20white20.jpg/)
:cool:
Marco.
I thought it was Choir Audio rather than Bent Audio that used the Hashimoto transformers - there may be hope for your SPU yet.
Ah, Andrew, you may be right (they both have "audio" in their name) - too much wine tonight! :doh:
Marco.
Oh dear, there goes the possibility of Hashimoto transformers for my SPU! :doh:
Are you confusing them with Choir Audio, Marco?
Yes!
It's Del's birthday, and we've both had rather too much Brunello! :drunk: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Happy Birthday Del! Sounds like you are having a good time! (Stay away from the SPU tonight I would suggest! ;))
Yes, we've had (are having) a great time, matey - churz! I think that polishing this off (Del's favourite Champers), after the Brunello, was perhaps slightly too naughty....
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2086/b21783.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/b21783.jpg/)
:eyebrows: :eyebrows: :cheers:
Marco.
:lol: don't want to discover a bent cantilever in the morning. Happy birthday, Del!
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2011, 18:23
Yup, problem is, it was the Hashimoto transformers that made it special. Who knows whether those other ones will be as good? I think it's rather doubtful...
Not to worry, it narrows my SUT shortlist down now to one of these:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2450/t1stk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/t1stk.jpg/)
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/925/auditorium23homage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/auditorium23homage.jpg/)
Or one of these:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6143/st80secontentimage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/st80secontentimage.jpg/)
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9655/st8020se20back20white20.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/st8020se20back20white20.jpg/)
:cool:
Marco.
I have organised an audition with that very same ortofon SUT. But, the fact that there is a company out there that will tailor a SUT to my cartridge is very tempting. The only problem is what if I change cartridge?? So, the dilemma is do i go for a super bespoke SUT or do i go for the best all rounder I can find? any suggestions??
Hi Andrew,
Let me know what you think of the Ortofon, matey, when you try it.
You don't use an Ortofon cartridge though, do you? Not that this should necessarily matter, but I'm generally of the opinion that SUTs work best when they've been designed from the ground up with their intended partnering cartridge, and from my point of view, with an SPU, the ST80SE should be a good match :)
With regard to your last question, it depends on whether your current cartridge (or cartridges?) are keepers or not. If the answer is yes, then having an SUT tailored to sonically optimise your favourite cartridge is a very good idea indeed. If the answer is no, then you defo want to factor in some tuning flexibility.
Incidentally, both AT and Lyra do matching SUTs for their respective cartridges. Dave Cawley sells the AT ones. The Lyra one (I forget what it's called, but I think that it's red {edit... here it is: http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/Erodion/erodion.html }) is stupidly expensive, but is reputedly meant to make their cartidges sound special in a way which evades any active MC cartridge amplification.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2623/blocksimage11p.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/blocksimage11p.png/)
Best of luck on what you decide to do! :cool:
Marco.
Shame that we're such a distance apart. If you could between you borrow the Ortofon and Homage we could have a three-way SUT bake-off, with cartridges too.
Indeed... Problem anyway is that the Homage T1 is £2400, and the dealer (understandably) won't get one in without a confirmed sale. So if want one, I'll have to take a blind punt on it! :eek:
Marco.
Well, I took a punt with the Choir but that was only £1500 or so. Don't regret it at all!
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2011, 19:46
GUYS!
Up until tonight i have this in my system at the moment
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Audio-Technica-AT2000-T-Step-Up-Transformer/product_5193
And it's very good, I have no idea if its worth a grand however as I haven't checked anything else out.
Shame that we're such a distance apart. If you could between you borrow the Ortofon and Homage we could have a three-way SUT bake-off, with cartridges too.
I agree with you here mate, it would have been nice to meet you both and badger you (Martin), about the internal regs! ;)
Indeed... Problem anyway is that the Homage T1 is £2400, and the dealer (understandably) won't get one in without a confirmed sale. So if want one, I'll have to take a blind punt on it! :eek:
Marco.
I have a very very good supplier where I could probably organise an audition of this. But, as I've stated in early posts I want to wait until my SR7XL is fully burned in so I can discern the differences it makes. ;) I'll then probably start with the Ortofon SUT, I love ortofon cartridges but i've stuck with the Audiotechnica cartridge simply because I've been too idle to get a new cart. One thing is bugging me. :scratch: What makes the Hashimoto SUT's so special :scratch:?? Looking forward to your answers.
Up until tonight i have this in my system at the moment
Nice move, never heard that SUT but it looks like it could be the biz with AT cartridges. Wonder how my AT33PTG would like it?
What makes the Hashimoto SUT's so special
Hand wound by an old Japanese guy? They sound bloody superb? Hard to say what they would do for you, Andrew.
Wakefield Turntables
14-12-2011, 20:10
i've had the AT SUT in my system for 4 weeks and I have now just removed it out so I can pack it up and return tomorrow. OMG my system sounds $hite :doh: I had no idea what a SUT could do to a system, its been a real eye opener :stalks: I think I need to have a look at the choir audio option as well.
vinylspinner
14-12-2011, 21:57
Hi Guys,
I use these, http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_MC.html, these sut are very good and not a bad price, Lurcher Nick built these into a box for me recently, very pleased with the sound, may be worth a listen.
Nigel
Wakefield Turntables
15-12-2011, 19:54
Hmmm, I'm liking the looks of Choir Audio. Thanks for the alternative suggestion. I would like a little flexibility and this option from Thailand seems more cartridge specific. I've spoken to my local hifi dealer after returning the AT SUT :( and I'm pleased to say that I will be trialing a Cadenza black MC and Ortofon SUT, probably in Feb. I'll keep you all updated. :cool:
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