EAR 509 clean up and service thread.

[sq225917]

I made the 6 hour+ round trip last night from Sheffield to London to pick up a pair of Tim De Paravicini's EAR 509 monoblocks. 100 watts per side of valve loveliness. I have to say i'm pretty pleased with these, my first eBay bargain. £888 quid. The listing was awful, cameraphone picture, poor description and collection only- hence little real interest.

Bit of a bargain as the new ones retail for 9k+ and all that's changed is the chrome metal work.

So here's the plan.
1. Wind them up on the variac and check for any damage obvious wear, failed parts.
2. Use em for a week or so
3. Take the casework off to be stripped/sprayed or chromed, same with the grills and transformer caps. Strip and repaint the trannies.
4. Have the valves all checked over.
5. Replace all the electrolytics.
6. Replace the potentiometer, add an IEC, replace RCA socket and binding posts.
7. Reassemble and enjoy.

I'll start with some current pics later today.

[Marco]

Hi Simon,

Nice one - look forward to it! I rate 509s highly and think that you'll end up with some really nice amps, once they're done.

Just don't tell Timmy boy what your intentions are! :eek:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Good on yer Simon, WONDERFUL amps...

Its over thirty years since I quickly peeked inside one, but I remember our demo set having yellow polypropylene caps inside on the audio circuit anyway. I think Tim over-built these from the word go, so hopefully you shouldn't need to do too much restoration other than cosmetic..

[jostber]

You're a lucky fella! Sounds like an interesting project.

Here is the service manual if you need it:

www.izzy-wizzy.com/audio/ear.pdf

A couple of previous threads on AOS:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11079
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10871

[hifi_dave]

Great amps, able to drive just about any/everything and totally reliable. We used to sell bucket loads of them because they were such good value at around half the price of an 'equivalent' ARC but nowadays they are quite expensive at £10,496..:stalks:

[YNWaN]

I absolutely cannot wait to hear these - have always wanted to and never had the chance.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,

We could have an amp and T/T sesh - it would be interesting to hear the 509s 'as is', before any mods are carried out to them.

Simon expressed an interest in coming over to your place to hear my T/T when I bring it round again. I should have my arm and cartridge back before the end of the week, and the new armboard should be ready, too, so it would be a good excuse to have a mini bake-off! :cool:

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Always liked the look of em but im sorry to say the only product ive ever owned of Tims is the '834P' phono stage.

[YNWaN]

Marco, it may be possible but unfortunately I've got a lot on this week - Can't find my MM boards at the minute either (haven't used them in years).

[sq225917]

Marco, if you wait a week or two my new deck should be here. 12"Kuzma Stabi/S It'd be interesting to hear the Techie against that. Also my place is a little more conducive to bakeoffs than Mark's is as I have more room and it's all on the ground floor and everything is on RCA sockets so no need to bugger around. (and of course my hifi kicks the arse of his).

I can also do needle drops directly as I have 24/96 Sony digital recorder.

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll delve inside later today and check the bias after I've fitted new plugs and cleaned that pot on the back panel on both of them.

Pictures in five minutes.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,

No worries. Let us know if you find them :)

Simon, that sounds like a possible plan. I'd love to hear the Kuzma - always admired those. It's getting close to Christmas then, but let's see how we're all fixed nearer the time, and we'll take it from there :cool:

Marco.

[sq225917]

Here we go.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6459920699_f6e87178af_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6459915937_bd8a636582_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6459913603_a5ec5d90a4_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7007/6459911269_55d1b22e34_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7010/6459908821_56b357baa7_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7013/6459906045_5212292900_z.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/6459908821/in/set-72157628290557087/

[Marco]

They look in half-decent nick, Simon! :)

Like Dave says, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to replace components, like caps, unless through age, they need to be replaced. Tim de P would've voiced the 509s to sound a certain way.

Listen to them first and see if you like them, or can detect anything wrong with them. I know it's tempting to tweak the buggery out of kit and fit lots of 'boutique' components, but some classic bits of kit are best left alone ;)

My advice? Before doing anything, send them to Tim at EAR for a full service. Then listen to how they sound when they come back, and take things from there. You'll then have a good benchmark from which to judge the necessity for any modding :cool:

Marco.

P.S I think it's an old bit of chewing gum!

[hifi_dave]

They are the Mk.1 version, not that it makes a huge difference.

EAR will service and re-tube them for not much more than you can buy the tubes..:scratch:

[sq225917]

So then, had them wired and fired this afternoon, they sounded generally ropey to start off with, thin, quite noisy. I popped the bottoms and biased the valves to the correct value. Kerching- much better sound. After a stiff thirty minutes shafting with bass heavy music they began to really open up. Though i thought the bass still a little vague and the stereo somewhat off centre.

After a bit more faffing I noticed I had them wired out of phase. Easy to do as one set of my speaker wires ends in bare cable. Doh. Ahhh that's better, slam, immediacy, limpid all those good things.

I saw that someone had there's serviced and re-valved for £150, they were later versions though. These definitely need some work. One unit still has a little sizzle in the treble and the other one has a little rushing in the mids. I've asked Tim for a price including all the back panel gubbins, we'll see what he comes up with.

They are in remarkably good condition, though i will strip and respray all the metal work to get them pristine. looking forward to seeing if they will oust the solid-state incumbents.

Here they are in place.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6460745979_ccea221d4c_z.jpg

[Darren]

Marco, if you wait a week or two my new deck should be here. 12"Kuzma Stabi/S

Hey Sq, have I understood correctly? you are buying a Stabi S? the Stabi S always seems such a simple thing, very stripped down. Do you think its going to be better than the SME10? You had a larger Kuzma once didnt you?

What solid state amps are you using?

[YNWaN]

sq had a Kuzma Stabi S before he bought the SME (and Stogi S) before he bought his SME10 (V) combo. He's after the 12" version of the Kuzma now.

Had a listen to these amps this afternoon; I must say I liked them - very strong in the mid range. We tried them on both the 4 Ohm tap and the 8 Ohm tap and both of us preferred the 8 Ohm tap.
________________________

I've got a bunch of Naim boards in a box in the cellar, my MM boards may be with them.

[Darren]

Ah, right. Got it. Surely he should go for the Stabi XL4 this time around? :eyebrows:

[sq225917]

I've heard all the Kuzma's, the sweet spot in with the Stabi/Stogi S, I actually prefer it over the reference regardless of price. I always found the SME V just a touch sterile, I prefer a little more zing, the Kuzma offered that.

It's fair to say I'm 'warming' to these amps. The solidstate amps I use are a well cared for and recently serviced pair of TAG 125m monoblocks. Basically the same as the original Audiolab ones that were used forever as the What HIFI reference amp, but the TAG's were specced with better parts and slightly uprated in the PSU. They are unnerving unfussy...

[YNWaN]

I see you have photo-shopped that EAR509 logo onto one of the pics :).

[Audioflyer]

I have fond memory of these amps when I was living in Germany about 1980. I use to pop down to a Hifi shop in Stuttgart and have a listen, they always sounded right driving Heybrook HB2 or Magneplanars.

[sq225917]

I'm enjoying some early evening Cello on these, Mischa has never sounded fuller of tone

[sq225917]

These have definitely warmed up over the past couple of days i assume the large value electrolytics needed to reform somewhat. The noise remains, a quick replacement of cathode resistors beckons this weekend.

[bobbasrah]

you luck luck f...ellow.

[YNWaN]

Listened to sq's EAR's again today - I must say, I really rather like them. I'm not entirely convinced yet by the bass - I'm not sure though if this is down to the amps, the speakers or the room (or a mix). sq tells me that there is evidence that these amps have been serviced in the past, but it will have been some time ago (I know the previous owner never actually used them!). One the amps is a tiny bit noisy at the top end and the other one has a tendency to burble a bit (again, not very loudly). Apparently there are some biasing resistors that are known to go-off and replacing these may well resolve these minor noise issues.

Not only do I like the sound of these 509's but I really like the very austere aesthetic (much more so than the visually jazzed up newer versions). I really like this style of simple and rather industrial black rectangular lumps (no polished chrome or brass for me, and absolutely NO gold bits) - I like the look of the Lamm valve amps too:

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/new/609541.jpg

[MartinT]

Always liked the look of em but im sorry to say the only product ive ever owned of Tims is the '834P' phono stage.

Same here, Andr'e. However, the 509s are serious objects of lust.

[alfie2902]

Nice one Simon! I've always quite fancied a play with a pair of these. Only heard them once at a show but the system was sining nicely.

Whats the valve complement?

[sq225917]

1 x ECC83, 2x ECC85 and 2 x PL509 per monoblock.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,

Do I detect some valve lust creeping into your seemingly dyed-in-the-wool sand-boy sensibilities? :eyebrows:

S'ok, mate, many Naimees eventually end up worshiping at the altar of glowing bottles, because when they're done well, you *can* get the best of both worlds... Trust me, I know ;)


I really like this style of simple and rather industrial black rectangular lumps (no polished chrome or brass for me, and absolutely NO gold bits) - I like the look of the Lamm valve amps too:

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/new/609541.jpg

I'm totally with you on the aesthetics of the Lamms, and I also absolutely detest gold bits on my kit, but only if I can get away with it in terms of sound quality. Sonic performance must always come first.

Faced with the choice between the Lamms, if they sounded pants (which I'm sure they don't) and a blingy, Rolex-wearing medallion lover's vision of glowing gold-ness, which sounded superb, it'd take me less than a nanosecond to choose the latter!!

Mind you, I'd probably be wearing sunglasses every time I played some tunes.... And anyway, I could always spray it black! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Can I add my tuppence-worth please, since the pair of 509's in question is from the era when I knew them well?

Back in the late 70's, Tim came to KJ with a pair just like these and left them with us for a few weeks. Tim was already a legend from his days in Japan with Luxman, but valves were in his soul I think and these were definitely "his" babies. At the time, the bolt-up Naim 250 ruled and, perhaps the limiting factor, a 12S and SNAPS was the preamp we normally used with them.

Comparing the 509's with the bolt-up 250 was interesting. The 250 at that time was a gentle, sweet toned and utterly musical sounding amp and NOTHING like the harder edged, driving CB version which appeared not too long after this, in 1980. The 509's sounded very similar, but with an even warmer-toned bass. It drove Isobariks fine, but the bigger UK made alternatives - B&W 801's, KEF 105's and IMF TLS80mk2's, could sound a bit too full of themselves with the 509's.

I do remember a notable occasion where an incorrectly wired 4-pin-DIN to two-phono's was used, putting 24V DC from the SNAPS into one of the amps for a good few minutes. The valves glowed up like light bulbs and a few of the plastic caps melted, but Tim graciously took it back, repaired it and it returned none the worse for its escapade......

The thing is, we declined the offer of a dealership, much to Tims disgust (and my shame looking back :( ). Six months later the harsh-toned abortion of the CB Naim 250 was inflicted on us and the rest is history.

Ten years or so later, once the Linn/Naim "thang" had all but evaporated from my brain, I came across the 509mk2's at Dave W's place. We used the rather wonderful little Pro-Ac Response 2's and compared the 509's with Tube Technology Genesis mono's (then known as "Speed 100's"). Croft's mega Micro and SMA4PP were used as preamps and sources were NAS and CD (can't remember which one). Glenn's best preamps were a little "soft toned" back then (they're NOT now) and the 509's thus driven just sounded too soft and dull (this was before Tim's own preamps appeared :( ). The TT's brought the sonics to life and I went with them, not realising that the four EL34's per channel were being driven to within an inch of their lives in the attempt to squeeze 100W out of them and were shagged beyond salvation after a year..

So to conclude. I missed out on two occasions to own some 509's and now regret it. They obviously last for decades with the minimum of attention and stay the way they are, long after the naim competition has had numerous re-caps and re-sets (whatever you think of the NAP250, it does drift off spec after a few years and needs a re-set as much as any valve amp may need their bias settings changed - the 509mk2's make this easy I understand).

[sq225917]

I think I have a handle on them now. They are a touch fuller in the bass, looser if you will, but only very slightly. Fair play, my other amps are 125w mono's that will actually deliver 30 amps and close to 250watts into a 4 ohm load. The 509's are more expressive in the mid and the treble si just as sweet and extended, more so if anything. The 509's also do better soundstaging, probably due to lack of feedback which i think can kill this.

I'll be popping the bottoms today and cleaning the pots, flux from the pcb's are maybe swapping the cathode resistors.

[YNWaN]

Do I detect some valve lust creeping into your seemingly dyed-in-the-wool sand-boy sensibilities? :eyebrows:

I've always liked the look of valve amps and ocasionaly I like the sound too. However, I'm not on board with the vague 'orange' tone that many valve amps have (or the out of time bass), so it's nice to hear a design that is much more clear and transparent.


S'ok, mate, many Naimees eventually end up worshiping at the altar of glowing bottles, because when they're done well, you *can* get the best of both worlds... Trust me, I know ;)

I think many people get itchy feet and make changes for the sake of itself, initially perceiving change as improvement and not initially missing the losses introduced in other areas (the bigger the difference the easier this is to do). As time goes by they modify the rest of the system to compensate for those losses introduced by the initial change - by the time they have finished the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.

Am I going to change my amps in the near future, who knows (never say never) - but probably not.


Faced with the choice between the Lamms, if they sounded pants (which I'm sure they don't) and a blingy, Rolex-wearing medallion lover's vision of glowing gold-ness, which sounded superb, it'd take me less than a nanosecond to choose the latter!!

Thankfully there is significantly more choice than the two polar opposites you describe. However, I certainly wouldn't buy a component based on it's looks (though, in reality, many do just that - particularly in the high-end).


And anyway, I could always spray it black! :eyebrows:

Yes, I would re-box or re-finish it if I had to.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,


I've always liked the look of valve amps and occasionally I like the sound too. However, I'm not on board with the vague 'orange' tone that many valve amps have (or the out of time bass), so it's nice to hear a design that is much more clear and transparent.


Indeed. The former you describe simply doesn't happen when valve amps are designed properly. But you're right, many of them do sound as you describe, which unfortunately gives a bad name to the rest, and then people who don't know any better, automatically presume that this is a trademark sonic signature of all valve amps... :rolleyes:

509s, when functioning optimally, are representative of how properly designed valve amps should sound!


I think many people get itchy feet and make changes for the sake of itself, initially perceiving change as improvement and not initially missing the losses introduced in other areas (the bigger the difference the easier this is to do). As time goes by they modify the rest of the system to compensate for those losses introduced by the initial change - by the time they have finished the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.


Yup, no doubt that happens in some cases, but not in all. It certainly doesn't reflect my situation. I've been happily 'Naimless' now for about four and a half years, and although I always admire how a good Naim system presents music, I don't miss it at all, as my Croft/Copper amp combo does all of what my old 52/Supercap/135s did, and much more besides!

I guess much depends on what kind of valve amp you're introduced to first when making the switch. I was fortunate that I only heard (and bought into) the good stuff, and so my journey from Naim gear to valves has been a 100% happy one. Unfortunately, others aren’t always so lucky.


Am I going to change my amps in the near future, who knows (never say never) - but probably not.


I wouldn't expect you to, as having heard your system I think I've got a pretty good handle on what you value about how it presents music :)


Thankfully there is significantly more choice than the two polar opposites you describe. However, I certainly wouldn't buy a component based on it's looks (though, in reality, many do just that - particularly in the high-end).


Too right, and those are some sad motherfuckers... You're right, though there is some good choice out there now with valve amps, which is a sure sign that they are arguably more popular now than ever! :cool:

Marco.

[sq225917]

So had a little probe, low hanging fruit and all that. Tried cleaning out that sticky pot, it's not happening, it needs replacing. I'm not sure what it contributes to the overall noise, but I can't imagine a new pot will be a mistake.

I took out the 30 year old 2.2uf polyester tropical fish that runs from the signal in pin to the input of the potentiometer. It's there for mopping up any DC on the signal line, which isn't an issue with my DAC, but better safe than sorry. I had a nice little Aura Teflon 1uf lying round from my old pre-amp build. You can't beat a bit of teflon capacitor. Of course these things are friggin huge, and they only just fitted without fouling the case.

-instant improvement across the top end- sharper and smoother at the same time. Not a big change but an obvious one none the less. The old caps were rated 2.2uf, one was 2.3uf and the other was 1.8uf so god knows what they were actually like at doing their job.

[YNWaN]

Have you changed those elderly resistors yet?

[sq225917]

No i need your long screwy to remove the covers to access the underside of the screw holding the OPT pcb in place, it's under that. i need to find the value first, then buy them.

[sq225917]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6481122417_ae9ceb43a7_z.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7027/6481116159_55814e17b6_z.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6481118813_4cdc128b38_z.jpg

Bloody hell these amps are older than Coronation Street.

[YNWaN]

Those circuit boards aint gonna win any prizes for 'best in show' are they!

Those output valves have got the Granada TV logo on them - have you put that there?

http://www.seeklogo.com/images/G/Granada_Television-logo-708475DEC7-seeklogo.com.gif

[sq225917]

Hence the Coronation Street quote...

I'm off to Maplins to get some flux cleaner remover. I'm not going to replace anything until after the service. I'll have Tim bring them back to spec first.

[YNWaN]

Yes, I did think that was the relevance of the Coronation quote (I'm not as informed with regard to soap-operas as I could be though) :).

[Audioflyer]

This may be of interest a review of it big brother the EAR549.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4a785hdawdj9tce

Sharif.

[sq225917]

Thanks sharif, an interesting read.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,


Those output valves have got the Granada TV logo on them - have you put that there?

http://www.seeklogo.com/images/G/Granada_Television-logo-708475DEC7-seeklogo.com.gif

Lol - I presume you know that PL509s were once used inside TVs? :)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Yes obviously I know that - I'm surprised to find Granada logo ones inside this amp though. I'm surprised because Granada haven't made any TV's in a very long time and what I didn't realise is that they also made the valves that went inside the TV's (of course, they may just have had them branded).

[DSJR]

Tim told us at the time that if the 509 valve is good for years being thrashed at 15kHz or so in a TV, then audio use will be a doddle for it and that it should last for years. I think this set has proved it...............

[YNWaN]

Yes indeed, these particular output tubes don't even seem to need replacing now (mind you, the amps haven't actually been used for many years either).

[sq225917]

Yeh they do look original, well they must be, given the history with Redifusion/Granada and when they stopped making Tv's

[YNWaN]

There are a lot of old stock valves about though and someone has changed the reservoir caps in the past.

[sq225917]

Never seen Granda 519 valves though, and the smaller valve are seamed like the Mullards are so that bodes well. Either road it's out with the old and in with the new next week.

[f1eng]

This may be of interest a review of it big brother the EAR549.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4a785hdawdj9tce

Sharif.

Hi Sharif,
I remember that article well. I -wanted- those amps but far too dear for me at the time.
OTOH I did audition the 509s years ago. I don't remember the system now but I was unimpressed. A harsh upper mid made them sound more "transistory" than the solid state amps I was used to. Probably a cartridge or arm shortcoming, based on people's experience here.
Mind you I should state that I have yet to hear a valve amp that convinces me enough to use one, despite loving the looks ;-)
I went to Donington Audio when Peter Quortrup was proprietor and convincingly espousing the superiority of valve amps in his marketing. I heard nothing convincing there at all. I had a beautiful pair(quad) of Jadis mono amps for a while but found the honey flavouring unsuited to some music I like and ended up going back to solid state fairly soon.
So it is probably just as well I couldn't afford the EARs earlier.

[MartinT]

I don't think it's a technology thing, Frank. I have heard all the spectrum of sounds from soupy to harsh from both valves and transistors. Not so long ago Marco and I conducted an experiment comparing his Copper valve power amp with my Chord transistor (MOSFET) power amp and they were surprisingly close in sound. Circuit design and component choice are more major factors.

[sq225917]

I'm with Martin on this, it's down to the design, if you want syrup there are plenty of valves designs out there that do that flavour, but it isn't endemic in all valves or valve designs, they can be made to be remarkably linear. Personally I have no preference, I want a clear and crystaline top end allied to a deep and tight bass.

I suspect finding that will have more to do with quality of design than parts choice.

[hifi_dave]

You've probably heard about it before but, some years ago, Tim De P made two amps which sounded about as identical as two amps can sound. One was SS and the other was valve/tube.

He did this to prove that it's not the technology but the way it is implemented.

[f1eng]

I have not auditioned a huge number of amplifiers. I did come to the conclusion in the early 70s that auditioning at home was the only thing that made sense and, apart from kits, have done so since.
I have not yet heard a valve amp that does the things I want, and am concerned about reliability too.
It certainly -should- be the case that it is more dependant on the design than the active devices, although a wide frequency bandwidth transformer is certainly a technical challenge if I understand them correctly.

[sq225917]

No argument from me, I feel the 509's great from mid to top but they do not have the bottomless bass of my SS amps.

[YNWaN]

I thought the extension of the bass was petty good and I thought the lower bass was pretty SS tight - but I didn't think the upper or mid bass was as tight as it could be.

[Darren]

You've probably heard about it before but, some years ago, Tim De P made two amps which sounded about as identical as two amps can sound. One was SS and the other was valve/tube.

He did this to prove that it's not the technology but the way it is implemented.

I remember those being reviewed by Kessler in HiFi News. They were the first Yoshino amps weren't they?
One had a single output transistor on a chrome pillar and the other a large output valve show cased at the front.
Kessler reckoned they sounded near enough identical.... Did you sell any Dave?

[hifi_dave]

I didn't sell any but we had them in to audition. They were very good indeed and very, very close in sound, as Tim De P promised.

I did have a couple of orders from regular customers but Tim De P decided not to produce them..:doh:

[DSJR]

We need more piccie updates on the 509's please. They always were warm toned, but with the right speaker (not a big bassy box) they're exquisite IMO.

[sq225917]

I should have some valves arriving today, I'll rip the cases off and take some more shots then.

[DSJR]

Many thanks :)

[roob]

I thought they were off for servicing this week?

[sq225917]

Nah Tim has been away servicing tape decks somewhere.

[f1eng]

I remember those being reviewed by Kessler in HiFi News. They were the first Yoshino amps weren't they?
One had a single output transistor on a chrome pillar and the other a large output valve show cased at the front.
Kessler reckoned they sounded near enough identical.... Did you sell any Dave?
I have a recollection of that review too. IIRC they were both single ended amps. Did the solid state one also have an output transformer, or have I got that wrong?
I remember being surprised that the dearest McIntosh amp years ago was solid state but had output transformers, for some reason.

[Reid Malenfant]

I have a recollection of that review too. IIRC they were both single ended amps. Did the solid state one also have an output transformer, or have I got that wrong?
There are a few ways to load a single ended output transistor. It probably had an inductor as a load as this would make it most efficient, next up would be a transformer & finally a power resistor :rolleyes:

Of those both the transformer & inductor (which would look very similar) would be vastly more efficient than a resistor load.

I remember the same review as it happens but I don't recall what the loading scheme was :) I'd hazard a guess & say a gapped transformer was used though.

[sq225917]

New quad set of EH 12AX7's arrived today.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6518129707_d716ba9af7_b.jpg

I promptly opened them and catapulted one clean out of the packaging and across the kitchen to smash to smithereens on the hob. The top of the one in the box is all that remains.

bugger

[Marco]

Sorry to hear that, Simon, but what made you go for EH 12AX7s? I hope you like them, but IME, they are somewhat ragged and toppy sounding and rather unmusical.

There are far better new stock 12AX7/ECC83s to choose from, not to mention NOS... (I could give you some reccos, as I've rolled just about every ECC-83 type tube known to man).

Marco.

[sq225917]

I just fancied rolling and these were available next day delivery at £10 each, no reason other than that. Once they are serviced I'll look at other options, but early Mullards, or other branded Telefunkens will be high on the list. I'm not looking to put stupidly priced glass in there.

I will be trying Tim's EI tubes as a first real option- the Eh will go to my guitar playing mate.

[Marco]

Sure, no worries. I get that... The best ECC83-types I've found are these NOS Mazdas, which is what I use in my Croft preamp, and that I also had cryo-treated:

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Mazda-Chrome-Plate-12AX7.html

They sound absolutely phenomenal. Not cheap, though! I've bought a few tubes from Upscale, and the quality of their stock is second to none. There are quite a few nice NOS 12AX7s for sale on their site.

As for other NOS options, you should contact Chelmer (CVC) and ask if they've got any NOS Mullard CV4004s left. They had some nice ones a few months back.

Also, there are NOS Tesla E83CC (not JJ Tesla, which are altogether inferior) frame-grid ECC83s, indentical in performance to the famed Telefunken 803S, at a fraction of the price. There's a nice pair for sale on eBay at the moment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-TESLA-E83CC-ECC83-12AX7A-NIB-same-codes-GOLD-pins-/320808092165?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab1a70205

Those three are about the best NOS ECC83-types one can buy.

For current production tubes, I'd use the 12AX7 Svetlana 'Winged C' Version, boxed-anodes, which IME are much better than the EH ones you've just bought. You can buy them from here:

http://www.langrex.co.uk/common-valves.html

You'll also see some of the Ei ones there that you said you wanted to try :cool:

Marco.

[sq225917]

Snapped up a set of those Tesla's with the folded getters, not cheap mind you but we'll see how they sound.

[Marco]

Nice one, Simon. You should enjoy them, if like me, you prefer tubes to sound as 'un-tubey' as possible :)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Indeed, I'm not looking for any valve warmth, just more see through mid and treble than I get from SS amps.

[alfie2902]

I'm getting some nice results from a NOS pair of Tesla ECC802s in the Concerto ATM. Makes me wonder how nice the Telefunken ECC802s might be!

[sq225917]

Dropped the amps off today and discussed what i'd like doing on top of the basic service. No worries with component choices and upgrades based on better caps, resistors and diodes that are now available. But hell are they busy, there was a palette full of amps heading out for Japan- business is booming.

[sq225917]

And the deliveries started coming in...hurrah.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7001/6538246577_e70b1f6139_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7169/6538253319_6222018750_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7156/6538261455_f9077135a1_b.jpg

[sq225917]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6596247211_9b3eaa252e_b.jpg

Lovely NOS Tesla gold pin, folded getter loveliness.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6596230603_0a88c0e9b8_b.jpg

Did I mention they were lovely.

[Marco]

Hehehe... Thought you'd like them, Simon! So how do they sound? :)

They're defo in my top three of the best sounding ECC-83 types available.

Marco.

[sq225917]

I'll tell you as soon as I get my bloody amps back- closed all week...

[Marco]

Ah... There's nothing worse than having to nurse the frustrations of eager anticipation! ;)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Tell me about it. No sooner will i be getting them back then i'll be completely disassembling them to have the cases stripped, acid etched and resprayed.

[da2222]

Hi Marco

Interesting comments about the Mazda ECC83 tubes- I also find them excellent. 5751s aside, the one tube that beats them hands down however is the ECC83 1958 Tungsram foil getter. They are truly superb in every department and add an incredible space to the sound. Pricey? Oh yes...:) rare? Hens teeth...But wonderful.



Sure, no worries. I get that... The best ECC83-types I've found are these NOS Mazdas, which is what I use in my Croft preamp, and that I also had cryo-treated:

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Mazda-Chrome-Plate-12AX7.html

They sound absolutely phenomenal. Not cheap, though! I've bought a few tubes from Upscale, and the quality of their stock is second to none. There are quite a few nice NOS 12AX7s for sale on their site.

As for other NOS options, you should contact Chelmer (CVC) and ask if they've got any NOS Mullard CV4004s left. They had some nice ones a few months back.

Also, there are NOS Tesla E83CC (not JJ Tesla, which are altogether inferior) frame-grid ECC83s, indentical in performance to the famed Telefunken 803S, at a fraction of the price. There's a nice pair for sale on eBay at the moment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-TESLA-E83CC-ECC83-12AX7A-NIB-same-codes-GOLD-pins-/320808092165?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ab1a70205

Those three are about the best NOS ECC83-types one can buy.

For current production tubes, I'd use the 12AX7 Svetlana 'Winged C' Version, boxed-anodes, which IME are much better than the EH ones you've just bought. You can buy them from here:

http://www.langrex.co.uk/common-valves.html

You'll also see some of the Ei ones there that you said you wanted to try :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Drew,

Prompted by your interesting comments about the Tungsrams, I've ordered a couple of these little chaps:


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5179/7162c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/7162c.jpg/)


...from Tubemonger, in the States (whom I've bought tubes from before - their merchandise is usually of excellent quality): http://www.tubemonger.com/Tungsram_Aug_1963_Industrial_ECC83_12AX7_Red_Ser_p/716.htm

I'm not sure if they're exactly what you were referring to, but I was suitably intrigued to take a punt on them anyway, and see what they're like! I'll let you know what I think as soon as they arrive :cool:

Marco.

[jostber]

Hi Drew,

Prompted by your interesting comments about the Tungsrams, I've ordered a couple of these little chaps:


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5179/7162c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/7162c.jpg/)


...from Tubemonger, in the States (whom I've bought tubes from before - their merchandise is usually of excellent quality): http://www.tubemonger.com/Tungsram_Aug_1963_Industrial_ECC83_12AX7_Red_Ser_p/716.htm

I'm not sure if they're exactly what you were referring to, but I was suitably intrigued to take a punt on them anyway, and see what they're like! I'll let you know what I think as soon as they arrive :cool:

Marco.

These are looking good. :) Have not done any tube rolling myself, but am tempted to try it out as I now have several tube components.

[Marco]

Hi Jostein,

Call it instinct, but I have a good feeling about them! :)

Marco.

[da2222]

Hi Marco

The tubes you have ordered are certainly very good but not quite up there in terms of space and prowess as the 1950s ones I was referring to. These are the boys to beg, borrow or steal:

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/12AX7/Tungsram+ECC83+1950s+Dual+Support+Foil+Getter+-+Hungary.jpg.html

Looking forward to hearing how you find the early 60s ones. Bear in mind these tubes need significant burn in to sound their best.

[Marco]

Hi Drew,

I didn't think that they were the same, however the 60s ones will hopefully share some of the enviable sonic characteristics of the 1950s ones :)

Thanks for the info - I'll certainly keep a lookout for the 50s dual-foil getters! :cool:

I did find this, however, and if that's roughly how much one would pay for the 1950s Tungsrams, you're referring to, I won't be going there! :eek: :mental:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phenomenal-Siemens-Halske-ECC83-12AX7-LONG-PLATES-1950s-D-FOIL-GETTER-NOS-/230719692180?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item35b7f71d94

Marco.

[da2222]

Wow these Siemens are pricey indeed (over priced??!) For matched 1950s Tungsram foil getters you're probably looking at £300 for a good matched pair but I've seen them go for much more... I have 2 pairs and am very happy with them indeed. Pretty sure you'll like the 1963 ones- I had a superb pair of 1961 welded plate foil getters and they were stunning. Have you dabbled with 5751s yet?

[Marco]

£300, or so, for a nice matched (and fully tested) pair wouldn't be out of the question. There's a limit to how much I'm willing to pay for NOS tubes, before one enters the realms of what collectors will pay (who won't even use them), with more money than sense! :mental:

Yes, I've tried 5751s. Although I like their sonic signature, the lower gain doesn't suit my preamp... I need the higher gain of ECC83/12AX7s :)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Just had the bill in for the service on my amps.

Component replacement to bring up to current spec and pair matched across amps.
4x new 519s
2x new ecc85
4x new ecc83
2x new volume pots
6x new speaker posts

£550 inc labour.

Value of having them brought up to current spec by the hand that designed them? Priceless... ;-)

I'll strip em down and have them resprayed probably the week after next, pics to follow tomorrow.

[DSJR]

The 519's used to be two a penny, hence their use by Tim, but they're not so cheap now I think. That bill ain't too bad I suppose, when you look at the current retail prices on them. I mean, we all thought those copper ones at £1600 or so were a bargain :)

I'm probably out of my tree once again on this, so take the following with as big a pinch of salt as you like - but many of these vintage valves have a smooth and "musical" kind of vibe to them??????? The EAR amps do this all on their own and with modern standard valves. I really do hope you won't over-egg the pudding Simon... As I said, it's purely supposition on my part and these vintage driver valves may well end up opening the upper mid and treble out further.....

[YNWaN]

The only problem is you already have a bunch of posh replacement valves - so it hardly seems worth paying for them to be replaced with items less exotic.

[sq225917]

It's not like any of them are going to decrease in value, the ECC83 Tesla's will just keep going up and up. I'll flog the ones I don't want.

[Marco]

Nice one, Simon... I'm sure that when they come back, the 509s will sound amazing!

Incidentally, if you remember I ordered some of these, which have now arrived:



http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5179/7162c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/7162c.jpg/)


I've popped one into my Croft preamp, and all I can say is :wow: :wowzer: :wow:

Based on what I've heard so far, it's the best ECC83 type I've heard - and by some margin! I'll comment more later :)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

It will be interesting to see how different the 509's do sound.

[da2222]

Hi again Marco. I thought you might like them:eyebrows:

Well, the only step now are the 1950s foil getters;) They will blow you away...




Nice one, Simon... I'm sure that when they come back, the 509s will sound amazing!

Incidentally, if you remember I ordered some of these, which have now arrived:




I've popped one into my Croft preamp, and all I can say is :wow: :wowzer: :wow:

Based on what I've heard so far, it's the best ECC83 type I've heard - and by some margin! I'll comment more later :)

Marco.

[sq225917]

Well the 509's are back, and to be honest they don't sound very different. The bass is certainly tighter with the new valves in place, I haven't swapped the Tesla's in yet. I have some investigation to do first and want to let them get 50 hours on the new valves first before I mess about with them.

[sq225917]

Just had tracking through for my deck, it's currently in Munich... hurrah

[YNWaN]

Well the 509's are back, and to be honest they don't sound very different. The bass is certainly tighter with the new valves in place, I haven't swapped the Tesla's in yet. I have some investigation to do first and want to let them get 50 hours on the new valves first before I mess about with them.

Hmm, I agree - I didn't think they sounded much different either. Perhaps the bass is tighter, you certainly wouldn't be able to pick them out as the valve amp in a blind test (I don't think I could any way).

[sq225917]

Deck is now in Oldbury.

Should be here on Monday...

[sq225917]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6707590593_f2debafa08_b.jpg
Back where they belong.

Of course now I have a massive unpacking job to do- my deck is here.

[stevied]

Whats the deck ?

[YNWaN]

It says in his signature - and there is a whole (recent) thread about it :).

[jostber]

Whats the deck ?

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15341

[stevied]

Cheers
:)