View Full Version : Technics turntable mat and platter
I have a couple of questions. Does the Oyaide Analog Turntable Sheet MJ-12 require a mat? I ask because I have a Technics SL1200 MKII that I have been systematically upgrading. So far I have changed the stock arm to a Sumiko Premier MMT, Audioquest Cable, Applied Fidelity Generation II Bearing, and Isonoe Footers. I am using an Audio Technica 33EV cart. The other mat I am considering is the TTWeights Alloy mat. I have considered a Mike New Platter as well as the Funk Platter. I will probably upgrade to the KAB Power Supply.
From all I have read, the stock platter and the Oyaide seems to be the best bang for the buck. Opinions?
It really depends on whether you want a fit-and-forget upgrade, Mark, or whether you want the best bang for the buck. Since you already have an upgraded bearing (mandatory before much else), I would say that the PSU is definitely next for your attention. You could get by with an Achromat or Herbies until then.
It seems like the Oyaide MJ-12 is meant to be used as a mat:
http://www.eden-audio.com/oyaide-mj-12.php
No, the Oyaide can be used on its own.:)
The Oyaide mat is designed to be used without a mat on top, you can put one on if you like but I have used it for a long time now on the stock technics platter using my own power supply and it sounds good enough for me, the 2 most popular platters currently for sale cost more than double the price of the oyaide so I would suggest get the oyaide mat (you can sell it for a good price when you decide to up-grade to a platter later) and a better power supply and you will notice a better sound immediately, I did.
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Turntable%20Pics/DSCF3769-1.jpg
The Oyaide mat benefits from using a record weight but it does not need to be the oyaide weight, any good weight will do around 400g.
The Oyaide mat and weight proved to be a major upgrade, brilliantly made and look cool as hell:)
The Oyaide mat is designed to be used without a mat on top, you can put one on if you like but I have used it for a long time now on the stock technics platter using my own power supply and it sounds good enough for me, the 2 most popular platters currently for sale cost more than double the price of the oyaide so I would suggest get the oyaide mat (you can sell it for a good price when you decide to up-grade to a platter later) and a better power supply and you will notice a better sound immediately, I did.
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Turntable%20Pics/DSCF3769-1.jpg
The Oyaide mat benefits from using a record weight but it does not need to be the oyaide weight, any good weight will do around 400g.
Is that a Rega type arm on that TT? How do the Rega arms sound with the SL1200? Good synergy?
Is that a Rega type arm on that TT? How do the Rega arms sound with the SL1200? Good synergy?
It's a Michell TecnoArm - a heavily modded RB250.
I used a modded RB251 on a 1210 a couple of years ago. Didn't get on with it tbh.
Is that a Rega type arm on that TT? How do the Rega arms sound with the SL1200? Good synergy?
It was a techno arm that I got off a splendid chap on this forum called Martin, it's gone to a friend now, it did sound good but the Jelco is better, especially with the Oyaide headshell (for me anyway).
This is my current set up for the moment until my new platter is ready later this month. I have my own feet fitted which are not on this photo.
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/boni%20sept%202011/939ff944.jpg
That Jelco is sweet. My Sumiko MMT is very similar to the 750. I think to get a lot better performance I would need an SME 309. Here is mine:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/desperado915/DSCN3910.jpg
I am about about to strip my TT and go with custom paint (Candy Apple Red or British Racing Green, maybe)
That Jelco is sweet. My Sumiko MMT is very similar to the 750. I think to get a lot better performance I would need an SME 309. Here is mine:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/desperado915/DSCN3910.jpg
I am about about to strip my TT and go with custom paint (Candy Apple Red or British Racing Green, maybe)
The 309 is over-rated for the Technics IMO. After feet, PSU, platter, tone-arm cable, bearing have been done THEN consider an arm change, it may not be necessary if everything else gels together!
ComradeSaigon
04-12-2011, 23:31
Hi Mark,
I'm using my Oyaide mat without any additional mat. But it does look like accident waiting to happened, i.e. what if you accidently dropped the arm with expensive cartridge whilst the platter is spinning. Which still is one of my habit I used to from the days using belt drive turntable.
I think Oyaide mat sounds good on it own without any others mat, treble is crystal clear.
May be I'd changed my mind about the additional record weight. I'm using my old Project weight with a small blutac add on top. I find this helps micro-dynamic sounds clearer.
The 309 is over-rated for the Technics IMO. After feet, PSU, platter, tone-arm cable, bearing have been done THEN consider an arm change, it may not be necessary if everything else gels together!
David, I am really surprised by that comment because the 309 gets so much hype here and in the UK. The SME is a gorgeous looking piece of equipment but I take your comment seriously. I do have a good friend that is real talented at tonearm re-wires. Maybe some top notch silver wire in the Sumiko would max it out.
Hi Mark,
I'm using my Oyaide mat without any additional mat. But it does look like accident waiting to happened, i.e. what if you accidently dropped the arm with expensive cartridge whilst the platter is spinning. Which still is one of my habit I used to from the days using belt drive turntable.
I think Oyaide mat sounds good on it own without any others mat, treble is crystal clear.
May be I'd changed my mind about the additional record weight. I'm using my old Project weight with a small blutac add on top. I find this helps micro-dynamic sounds clearer.
Thanks, Minh! I think I am buying this mat and a power supply real soon. More to follow...
Hi Mark,
David, I am really surprised by that comment because the 309 gets so much hype here and in the UK. The SME is a gorgeous looking piece of equipment but I take your comment seriously.
He's absolutely right, so you're not making a mistake by taking his comments seriously... Hopefully, you'll take mine as seriously when I tell you the same thing and add that modern SME tonearms, although very well made, can sound as flat as witch's tit!
Beware of hype: most people buy SME tonearms because of a desire to own 'the badge', and because of said hype. You can't fault the engineering, but sometimes audio equipment needs more than just raw engineering skills applied to it to sound truly superb. Perhaps also, in the States, there is extra kudos given to owning certain makes British hi-fi equipment?
Anyway, sonically, you can get better performance elsewhere (I can give you some examples, if you like), and for a damn sight less money. Save yourself some dosh, Mark, and take good advice from someone (as well as David) who knows the score! ;)
Marco.
Marco,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your insight into this and will probably keep the arm I have for the time being. I am about to trade a friend of mine for a clean Technics SP-25 with the nice Wood plinth to add to my collection.
I got a kick out of your comment regarding certain "British" equipment that virtually has a cult following here in the US. It seems to me that my brothers across the pond have embraced the virtues of the Technics SL 1200 series turntables, while my own contemporaries here at home turn their noses up at it. Of course, the SL-1200 is nothing more than a "DJ" table and not worth serious consideration as an audiphile grade turntable. ;)
RobbieGong
05-12-2011, 18:24
Marco,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your insight into this and will probably keep the arm I have for the time being. I am about to trade a friend of mine for a clean Technics SP-25 with the nice Wood plinth to add to my collection.
I got a kick out of your comment regarding certain "British" equipment that virtually has a cult following here in the US. It seems to me that my brothers across the pond have embraced the virtues of the Technics SL 1200 series turntables, while my own contemporaries here at home turn their noses up at it. Of course, the SL-1200 is nothing more than a "DJ" table and not worth serious consideration as an audiphile grade turntable. ;)
Oh Dear ! I'll only comment as far as to simply say not the case ! Others I'm sure will add further.........
I think you missed the irony ;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
05-12-2011, 19:50
I think you missed the irony ;)
Marco.
Ooops !! :doh: :lolsign:
Wakefield Turntables
05-12-2011, 20:11
Hi Mark,
SME tonearms, although very well made, can sound as flat as witch's tit!
Beware of hype: most people buy SME tonearms because of a desire to own 'the badge', and because of said hype. You can't fault the engineering, but sometimes audio equipment needs more than just raw engineering skills applied to it to sound truly superb. Perhaps also, in the States, there is extra kudos given to owning certain makes British hi-fi equipment?
Anyway, sonically, you can get better performance elsewhere (I can give you some examples, if you like), and for a damn sight less money. Save yourself some dosh, Mark, and take good advice from someone (as well as David) who knows the score! ;)
Marco.
OOUCCHH! Sir, I demand you retract your comments, they actually sound flatter than a witches left tit! You need a bright cartridge to get over the dampened sound of the SME tonearm. Trust me my V does not sound "flat", in fact its very lively and sometimes you've got to feed the bugger a pound of best flesh before it'll calm down. I must admit that i've got another case of wanting to try some other tonearm's but the V can stay where it is for a while. It's taken me long enough to get the thing working nicely with the 5mm Acromat that I just bought. :cool:
Lol - soz, Andrew, that's what me 'ol lugs tell me about modern SME tonearms. I've never heard a V sound as dynamic, alive and just so Goddamn musical as the Ortofon. We'll need to have a sesh sometime, and we can compare T/Ts and hear each other's point of reference, which on many levels would be fun! :)
You need a bright cartridge to get over the dampened sound of the SME tonearm.
Yes, but since we're talking about tits, that approach, for me, is rather arse over one! :eyebrows:
You'll learn one day when you discover something else better (and likely cheaper to boot!) ;)
Marco.
Marco I'd like a list of better sounding alternatives to the SME 309. I was considering a 309 but based on what I've just read will not go down that road. Also, am I right that the longest arm you can put on a SL1200 is 9 inches?
I'd like a list of better sounding alternatives to the SME 309
I've heard the Jelco SA250ST, Jelco 750D, Ortofon RS-212D, Audio Note and my own Dynavector DV-507II arms all sound very good on the Technics.
I can add the Sumiko MMT and Sumiko FT-3 to that list of arms that have synergy with the SL1200 series tables. I have used both on my SL1200 MKII and they are a nice match. They are both actually Jelco arms. I have never used the fluid dampening feature either.
Hi Jeff,
Martin beat me to it! Much, however, depends on the cartridge you're using.
Up to SME 309 price level, the star of that list is undoubtedly the Audio Note Arm 1 (do a search here and a few threads will pop up where it's been mentioned before). If you don't need a high-mass arm, the Audio Note is stunningly good for the money, and WAY better, IMO, than a 309.
If you fancy a unipivot, other people have also had excellent results with the Roksan Nima and Hadcock GH242 Integra. Otherwise, if you need more mass, the Jelco SA-750/Sumiko MMT are your friend.
Beyond that, the sky is your limit... Both Martin's Dynavector and my Ortofon RS212D (at £3500 and £2100, respectively), to my ears, piss all over ANY SME tonearm I've heard! ;)
Unless you like quite forward-sounding MC cartridges (step forward Lyras and most Audio Technicas, for example), which counteract the rather over-damped, 'sober' sonic presentation of modern SME tonearms, avoid the latter like the plague.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
06-12-2011, 20:34
Lol - soz, Andrew, that's what me 'ol lugs tell me about modern SME tonearms. I've never heard a V sound as dynamic, alive and just so Goddamn musical as the Ortofon. We'll need to have a sesh sometime, and we can compare T/Ts and hear each other's point of reference, which on many levels would be fun! :)
Yes, but since we're talking about tits, that approach, for me, is rather arse over one! :eyebrows:
You'll learn one day when you discover something else better (and likely cheaper to boot!) ;)
Marco.
No worries mate. I think my 1210 is a little behind yours now in the upgrade stakes. My $hitty PSU for a start, I have the Timestep HE soon to be replaced with a beast from Paul Hynes :eyebrows: The cartridge on the V could also do with replacing. I'm in the process of testing out SUT and I must say the one I have seems to be opening out now I hearing more. So another £2.5k (this is the cost of the next batch of upgrades) later and we may be on a level playing field. There are other things that I want to do with the 1210 but I'm in the process of fettling my garrard 301 so I've had to divert money away from the 1210. I'd love a bake off at some point but it'll have to be next year at some point!
Andy
No worries mate. I think my 1210 is a little behind yours now in the upgrade stakes. My $hitty PSU for a start, I have the Timestep HE soon to be replaced with a beast from Paul Hynes :eyebrows: The cartridge on the V could also do with replacing. I'm in the process of testing out SUT and I must say the one I have seems to be opening out now I hearing more. So another £2.5k (this is the cost of the next batch of upgrades) later and we may be on a level playing field. There are other things that I want to do with the 1210 but I'm in the process of fettling my garrard 301 so I've had to divert money away from the 1210. I'd love a bake off at some point but it'll have to be next year at some point!
Andy
Andy how does you 301 stack up against the technics?
Wakefield Turntables
07-12-2011, 20:09
Andy how does you 301 stack up against the technics?
Mate,
I'm in the process of completely rebuillding the thing so I cant really comment. I've just a new chasis for it and believe me or not I have a 45mm piece of sand stone that used to be front door step (yep this is true) which I'm going to have made into a plinth. I'm trying to do this project as cheaply as possible. So far I've managed to source a SME 3009 tonearm, cartridge, a garrard 301, new 301 chasis, 301 platter mat and prototype plinth for £387!! It's this years Xmas project, as well as trying to fetch the 1210 upto standard. ;)
Andy
No, the Oyaide can be used on its own.:)
But is it recommended to have a thin mat under the Oyaide mat to avoid metal on metal?
But is it recommended to have a thin mat under the Oyaide mat to avoid metal on metal?
Oyaide brought a thin mat out and sell it for £35, it does sound better with it fitted but it may be on other people's systems it does not make much of a difference, it does on mine and also Neil the daleks too.
Guys - what's the thickness of the Oyaide mat? It's just that with the Achromat (5mm) using a Sumiko headshell (which holds the cartridge higher, relative to the armtube) the OEM arm is down as low as it can go, and still running a bit 'hot' in terms of vta.
Thanks. :)
Here is from the Oyaide MJ-12 spec sheet:
Outer diameter is 294 mm. The thickest part is 5 mm. Weight of MJ-12 is 670 g.
Here is from the Oyaide MJ-12 spec sheet:
Outer diameter is 294 mm. The thickest part is 5 mm. Weight of MJ-12 is 670 g.
Ah! Excellent - thanks. :)
And here are the specs for the BR-One:
BR-ONE
Material: Butyl rubber
Thickness: 1mm
Weight: 80ｇ
Artifolk
16-01-2012, 19:54
And a couple of pictures.
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0486.jpg http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0488.jpg
Spectral Morn
16-01-2012, 20:14
I have a couple of questions. Does the Oyaide Analog Turntable Sheet MJ-12 require a mat? I ask because I have a Technics SL1200 MKII that I have been systematically upgrading. So far I have changed the stock arm to a Sumiko Premier MMT, Audioquest Cable, Applied Fidelity Generation II Bearing, and Isonoe Footers. I am using an Audio Technica 33EV cart. The other mat I am considering is the TTWeights Alloy mat. I have considered a Mike New Platter as well as the Funk Platter. I will probably upgrade to the KAB Power Supply.
From all I have read, the stock platter and the Oyaide seems to be the best bang for the buck. Opinions?
I would strongly recommend getting an Oyadie BR One, thin rubber mat to place under the Oyaide MJ-12. Having tried this (with a Mains Cable R Us mat) with the original platter and an after market platter the Oyaide MJ-12 sounds much better with a thin rubber mat below it. With the original platter, the thin rubber under compression from the weight of the MJ-12 and record weight adds damping to the thin original platter and this reduces ringing. The other platter I tried it with is a solid design with no real ringing but still the MJ-12 sounds better with the rubber below it.
Using any kind of mat on the top of the MJ-12 would defeat its design and I guess, though I have not tried it, probably sound worse.
Regards D S D L
I would strongly recommend getting an Oyadie BR One, thin rubber mat to place under the Oyaide MJ-12. Having tried this (with a Mains Cable R Us mat) with the original platter and an after market platter the Oyaide MJ-12 sounds much better with a thin rubber mat below it. With the original platter, the thin rubber under compression from the weight of the MJ-12 and record weight adds damping to the thin original platter and this reduces ringing. The other platter I tried it with is a solid design with no real ringing but still the MJ-12 sounds better with the rubber below it.
Using any kind of mat on the top of the MJ-12 would defeat its design and I guess, though I have not tried it, probably sound worse.
Regards D S D L
Would you recommend the Oyaide MJ-12(with BR-ONE) as the way to go, or will you recommend a full platter upgrade?
And a couple of pictures. £18 from Japan
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0486.jpg http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h419/Artifolk/IMAG0488.jpg
thanks for the tip charles, shall I send all my mats back to oyaide now? :lol:
support us and we will support you!
Spectral Morn
16-01-2012, 21:38
Would you recommend the Oyaide MJ-12(with BR-ONE) as the way to go, or will you recommend a full platter upgrade?
I think one does not preclude the other, unless you opt for a Funk Firm platter, which I understand does not require an other mat bar Funk's own one. However I have not tried the Funk so can offer no real comment bar I heard it sans extra mat at the Whittelbury show and thought that combination, with the Funk arm and a Denon 103 sounded very good but different to the Oyaide mat, SME309, AT AT33EV cart but not in that context better; just different.
I would need to hear a Funk platter in my own system to comment further.
I have found the Oyaide sounds good + the rubber under mat on a Mike New platter. Early version, not including the copper bonded top surface as current MN platters have on them.
Regards D S D L
Artifolk
17-01-2012, 05:20
David,
Sorry i didn't know you sold them, so I've removed offending text.
I have found the Oyaide sounds good + the rubber under mat on a Mike New platter. Early version, not including the copper bonded top surface as current MN platters have on them.
Wot?? You used an Oyaide mat ON TOP OF an MN platter, and thought it sounded good??? :eek: :wowzer: :scratch:
No doubt you also had a Bruil record weight on top of that lot, too!! :doh: I think you've been living too long with the over-damped, musically controlled, sound of an SME turntable, and so now consider that as an accurate benchmark! ;)
Joking aside, we must listen to things VERY differently then, Neil, because as good as the Oyaide mat and MN platter are on their own; when used together, I found that there was WAY too much mass for the Techy to cope with properly, and as such it produced a rather tonally 'heavy', leaden and ponderous sound, which completely destroyed the Techy's rhythmic speed and infectious musicality.
And incidentally, that opinion wasn't something that I arrived at quickly, but after some time comparing the effects of all the different platter permutations, on my SL-1210.
I think I know why you like the sound of the Oyaide + weight and MN platter, as when I heard the sonic effect of that combination myself, it initially seemed very impressive, in terms of the sheer control, weight and solidity it brought to proceedings, however with prolonged listening, it became clear that this was at the expense of 'speed'. I'm not talking here about speed stability, but rather the quickness of the T/T's ability to resolve the rhythmic content of music, and allow tunes to bop along at the correct pace.
In short, the music was completely robbed of its 'fun factor'.
Consequently, I found myself becoming very quickly bored listening to music which normally had me smiling and bopping along to the beat, or often on the edge of my seat with excitement; indeed it was this musical boredom which made me revisit using either the MN platter on its on (with an Achromat bonded to the surface), and also the stock platter with the Oyaide mat and weight.
And when I did that, it became blatantly obvious exactly what the previous high-mass combination, of the Oyaide mat/weight and MN platter, was doing wrong... Perhaps I'm just more aware of these things because I'm using MASSIVE speakers that have all the weight and slam one would ever need, without it being artificially boosted by the bass-heavy sonic signature from a turntable?
Of course, I eventually ended up choosing the MN platter with Achromat, before going with the Funk platter, which sonically, is a whole different ball game again... In my experience, the low-mass platter/weight approach with the Techy produces a lighter, quicker, 'faster', and inherently more musical sound, than the 'heavier', overly controlled and more ponderous sound, of a high-mass approach.
If you haven't gone back and tried the lower mass approach (such as, say, the stock platter with Oyaide mat and weight) yourself for some time, Neil, I'd urge you to revisit it and you might hear where I'm coming from. I've found myself in the past, as I'm sure you have too, that it's all too easy to 'tune into' the wrong things, and in turn make some unfortunate (and sometimes costly) mistakes.
Marco.
chris@panteg
17-01-2012, 10:53
Wot?? You used an Oyaide mat ON TOP OF an MN platter, and thought it sounded good??? :eek: :wowzer: :scratch:
No doubt you also had a Bruil record weight on top of that lot, too!! :doh: I think you've been living too long with the over-damped, musically controlled, sound of an SME turntable, and so now consider that as an accurate benchmark! ;)
Joking aside, we must listen to things VERY differently then, Neil, because as good as the Oyaide mat and MN platter are on their own; when used together, I found that there was WAY too much mass for the Techy to cope with properly, and as such it produced a rather tonally 'heavy', leaden and ponderous sound, which completely destroyed the Techy's rhythmic speed and infectious musicality.
And incidentally, that opinion wasn't something that I arrived at quickly, but after some time comparing the effects of all the different platter permutations, on my SL-1210.
I think I know why you like the sound of the Oyaide + weight and MN platter, as when I heard the sonic effect of that combination myself, it initially seemed very impressive, in terms of the sheer control, weight and solidity it brought to proceedings, however with prolonged listening, it became clear that this was at the expense of 'speed'. I'm not talking here about speed stability, but rather the quickness of the T/T's ability to resolve the rhythmic content of music, and allow tunes to bop along at the correct pace.
In short, the music was completely robbed of its 'fun factor'.
Consequently, I found myself becoming very quickly bored listening to music which normally had me smiling and bopping along to the beat, or often on the edge of my seat with excitement; indeed it was this musical boredom which made me revisit using either the MN platter on its on (with an Achromat bonded to the surface), and also the stock platter with the Oyaide mat and weight.
And when I did that, it became blatantly obvious exactly what the previous high-mass combination, of the Oyaide mat/weight and MN platter, was doing wrong... Perhaps I'm just more aware of these things because I'm using MASSIVE speakers that have all the weight and slam one would ever need, without it being artificially boosted by the bass-heavy sonic signature from a turntable?
Of course, I eventually ended up choosing the MN platter with Achromat, before going with the Funk platter, which sonically, is a whole different ball game again... In my experience, the low-mass platter/weight approach with the Techy produces a lighter, quicker, 'faster', and inherently more musical sound, than the 'heavier', overly controlled and more ponderous sound, of a high-mass approach.
If you haven't gone back and tried the lower mass approach (such as, say, the stock platter with Oyaide mat and weight) yourself for some time, Neil, I'd urge you to revisit it and you might hear where I'm coming from. I've found myself in the past, as I'm sure you have too, that it's all too easy to 'tune into' the wrong things, and in turn make some unfortunate (and sometimes costly) mistakes.
Marco.
Quite right Marco , the Techie motor will still turn a very high mass platter at 33 or 45 but the PLL system can't react as quickly or quickly enough as it were , its been explained to me that the motor control system is constantly making tiny adjustments as the load changes , but this is fine so long as the combined mass of the platter and any mat is kept to within a certain tollerance . take it outside that and you will lose some of the superlative performance of the 1200 motor .
Take a look at the SP10 mk3 motor and platter and how it works , some info on the net .
What is the total weight of the MN copper mat with the Achromat and what is the weight of the Funk platter? If you use only the Oyaide mat with a 300 g. weight and the BR-One mat it should be about 1 kg in total which the Technics should be able to handle perfectly. Together with the MN platter it might be a bit much.
With the MN bearing and an upgraded power supply I suppose you can give the motor some more weight to work with.
Since the MN platter with a copper mat is 3 mm and the Achromat is 5 mm is this outside the VTA scope for the SL1200?
Dingdong
17-01-2012, 12:45
I've always like the idea of heavier platters. It sort of makes sense to me, as long as the bearing is up to it.
The drive circuit would need a tweak to suit a more weight and maybe even a different bearing I believe.
Indeed, Mark, and I agree, but different rules apply with direct-drive turntables than with the high-mass belt (string)-drive turntables you're thinking of. There aren't too many D/D turntables with high-mass platters, and those which there are were designed with them from the ground up. Think about it...
However, my point earlier wasn't about the use of high-mass platters, per se, but rather the effect of using one with also a high-mass mat (the Oyaide) and then a heavy record weight on top, all of which over-eggs the pudding mass-wise, IME, with the Techy, and consequently ruins what is so special about its musical presentation.
Jostein, I'll get to your post later :)
Marco.
Dingdong
17-01-2012, 13:16
I have thought about it.
How many DD tables are there currently in production? Apart from Brinkmann I can't find much else.
The point i was trying to make that with an increase in weight of parts being driven a small change in the drive circuit should bring about decent results.
The idea behind a heavier platter would ,with the right changes to the drive circuit, decrease and small speed fluctuations. I know that they are very small with a dd turntable, but they can be improved.
How many DD tables are there currently in production? Apart from Brinkmann I can't find much else.
There is also the Inspire Monarch and GP Audio Monaco, neither of which (as far as I'm aware) uses an ultra high-mass platter... And even if they do, the characteristics of such platters would've been taken into consideration at the T/T's initial design stage.
And then of course there are vintage 'no compromise' professional designs, such as the SP10 and the direct-drive EMTs. I'm quite sure that if Technics and EMT had thought that using ultra high-mass platters was desirable, their turntable designs would have implemented their use.
Anyway, the issue I have isn't about the potential sonic benefits of using high-mass platters on D/D turntables, which incidentally I believe exist, but rather whether the SL-1200/1210 in its current iteration of drive and control circuitry (even when an MN bearing and suitably 'beefy' PSU are in the equation) is sonically improved by the use of a high-mass platter, in conjunction with a heavy mat and record weight. It's that last bit which represents the main thrust of my argument.
To my ears, it most certainly isn't.
Marco.
Dingdong
17-01-2012, 15:31
Is the Monarch a new tt?
Anyhow. The point I was trying to make was that I think that a simple tweak to the drive circuitry to go with a heavier platter would make sense, as the Teccy was setup for a lightweight platter.
Has anybody looked at this sort of thing?
Is the Monarch a new tt?
Anyhow. The point I was trying to make was that I think that a simple tweak to the drive circuitry to go with a heavier platter would make sense, as the Teccy was setup for a lightweight platter.
Has anybody looked at this sort of thing?
The Inspire Monarch is an all new TT built on SL1200:
http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/inspirehifi/monarch_files/HFW_Inspire%20Monarch%20Jan12%5B1%5D.pdf
Dingdong
17-01-2012, 15:37
Sort of a Teccy in a new plinth? Doesn't sound that new to me.
The point I was trying to make was that I think that a simple tweak to the drive circuitry to go with a heavier platter would make sense, as the Teccy was setup for a lightweight platter.
Sure, but I guess that it's arguable how "simple" such a tweak would be, and also who would be willing and able to do it! ;)
Marco.
Dingdong
17-01-2012, 15:47
I've just Googled it and it seems to have been done by some bloke that got banned from here.
Has anybody tried it?
Spectral Morn
17-01-2012, 15:54
Interesting comments.
Your MN has a copper mat on it and the one I am using does not, so a bit less mass. I have listened with different mats and so far the Oyaide + its own weight not the Bruil one sounds best in my system and with my music. Keep in mind that your system is very different to mine and as such absolutes are dangerous ground to stand on. I never present mine as such just findings in my system, in my room with my music; with the caveat of going and sucking it yourself to see if you agree.
The Sound of my SME is not the bench mark in this, or that of any other turntable except the Technics itself and how the various options sound to me, again in my system, etc using it and it alone.
Your experience is different to mine as is Martin's but both your systems are very different to mine and I expect how we listen may be different too.
I only say what I have said in the context of a 'so far' frame work, nothing cast in stone and plenty of listening still to be done.
Arm so far in use is SME 5, with Graham IC70 arm cable and Audio Technica AT33EV
Regards D S D L
Just a quick check on the Technics SL1200 MKII specs:
Original platter weight: 1.7 kg
Original thick rubber mat weight: 545 g.
Starting torque: 1.5 kg-cm
Hi Neil,
Your MN has a copper mat on it and the one I am using does not, so a bit less mass.
True, although it's more of a thin plate (around 2mm thick), and so much thinner than a standalone copper mat. Therefore the difference, mass-wise, between both platters is minimal.
I have listened with different mats and so far the Oyaide + its own weight not the Bruil one sounds best in my system and with my music. Keep in mind that your system is very different to mine and as such absolutes are dangerous ground to stand on. I never present mine as such just findings in my system, in my room with my music; with the caveat of going and sucking it yourself to see if you agree.
That's also what I advocate, but I take it as a given that people realise what I write here is only my opinion, based on what I've heard in my system, and not an absolute (how could it be any other way?) It gets rather tedious writing 'IMHO', 'YMMV', etc, all the time! ;)
The Sound of my SME is not the bench mark in this, or that of any other turntable except the Technics itself and how the various options sound to me, again in my system, etc using it and it alone.
What I meant was that the SME may have been YOUR own personal benchmark from which to judge the Technics against, as you've used it for so long and therefore know it inside out. Given those circumstances, I thought that such a notion was reasonable :)
Your experience is different to mine as is Martin's but both your systems are very different to mine and I expect how we listen may be different too.
I only say what I have said in the context of a 'so far' frame work, nothing cast in stone and plenty of listening still to be done.
Indeed, and I fully understand that.
Like I said though, do revisit using the stock Technics platter with Oyaide mat and weight, after having lived with the same combination on the MN platter for a while, and see if you can hear any semblance of what I described earlier. The MN platter is of course vastly superior in every respect, but its the overdoing of the mass, with the Oyaide combo (and the sonic consequences) which are the key factor.
I'd value your thoughts on the matter.
Arm so far in use is SME 5, with Graham IC70 arm cable and Audio Technica AT33EV
Coolio... What PSU are you currently using with the MN platter and Oyaide combo?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-01-2012, 18:40
Hi Neil,
True, although it's more of a thin plate (around 2mm thick), and so much thinner than a standalone copper mat. Therefore the difference, mass-wise, between both platters is minimal.
That's also what I advocate, but I take it as a given that people realise what I write here is only my opinion, based on what I've heard in my system, and not an absolute (how could it be any other way?) It gets rather tedious writing 'IMHO', 'YMMV', etc, all the time! ;)
What I meant was that the SME may have been YOUR own personal benchmark from which to judge the Technics against, as you've used it for so long and therefore know it inside out. Given those circumstances, I thought that such a notion was reasonable :)
Indeed, and I fully understand that.
Like I said though, do revisit using the stock Technics platter with Oyaide mat and weight, after having lived with the same combination on the MN platter for a while, and see if you can hear any semblance of what I described earlier. The MN platter is of course vastly superior in every respect, but its the overdoing of the mass, with the Oyaide combo (and the sonic consequences) which are the key factor.
I'd value your thoughts on the matter.
Coolio... What PSU are you currently using with the MN platter and Oyaide combo?
Marco.
In reality my Oracle Delphi would be more of a reference point, as I have used it far more and for longer, than the SME. You know my feelings on the 5 + 20 combination hence the reason I use the Graham on it.
I i'd rather not say much more as all of this is very much a work in progress. I do understand where you are coming from and certainly when I have made more progress will be more than happy to share what I think.
Regards D S D L
Sure, no worries. In the meantime what PSU are you using with the MN platter and Oyaide combo?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-01-2012, 22:22
Sure, no worries. In the meantime what PSU are you using with the MN platter and Oyaide combo?
Marco.
That's the bit I would rather say nothing more about ;) at the current time.
Regards D S D L
Oh right - sounds intriguing!
Marco.
morris_minor
17-02-2012, 14:14
The "Wilton" mat. Best used with the deck mounted on the floor.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o156/tildo_2006/1200MK2MOQUETTE.gif
Dingdong
17-02-2012, 14:25
You don't like the gold bits?
alex_san78
17-02-2012, 21:54
The "Wilton" mat. Best used with the deck mounted on the floor.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o156/tildo_2006/1200MK2MOQUETTE.gif
It looks like a computer graphic mat and the bearing is strange so... And yes, it looks terrible (the mat). :)
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