'ear we go

[Gordon Steadman]

I thought it might be of interest to read this comment placed on the woodworking forum I inhabit - in the general chat section.

There are good and great hi-fi designs, and there are some rules of thumb:

* you can hardly, ever, hear the difference between two competently-designed amplifiers,
* you cannot at all hear the difference between two lots of heavy gauge speaker cables,
* you cannot hear the difference between two brands of half-decent CD player,
* you couldn't possibly, ever, in a million years of trying, hear the difference between mains leads,
* you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between different types of interconnecting cable. If you can, mend the broken one.
* turntables should be heavy and level, go round smoothly, and go 'thunk' if tapped with a metal object.
* putting a CD player on any sort of vibration-absorbing pads usually leads to marks on the surface underneath and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* painting CD edges green leads to being laughed-at, and green fingertips, and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* lifting loudspeaker leads off the floor on little pylons is really good for running your son's train-set, and adds a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* Nothing can track the digital cannon in the Telarc 1812 Overture properly, because the groove walls are almost at right angles to the spiral.
* proper measurements tell you far more than any hi-fi mag review.


and finally,

* there are more snake-oil salesmen in hi-fi than in snake oil.

I reckon there might be one or two points up for discussion:) It would be useful to have some more ammunition when I try and make conversation.

[Dingdong]

You want to chat with people who post stuff like that? I tend to ignore trolling.

[Gordon Steadman]

Oh I don't know, a good 'discussion' passes the time.

[Dingdong]

It's all been done to death, and is becoming a tad boring don't ya think?

[Juha]

Well, why not.

Are your shoes from "Nike", jeans "Levi's". Why are you not drinking no-label cola from Tesco? Is all just for fun. A grey world is unintesresting.

[Gordon Steadman]

It's all been done to death, and is becoming a tad boring don't ya think?

It may well have been but I'm new round here and must have missed 99.99% of what has been going on.

So sorry to have bored you.

[Tim]

Well I'll bite as I have nothing to do ..... :lol:


* you can hardly, ever, hear the difference between two competently-designed amplifiers, FALSE Infact I'm doing it right now with a Rega Brio R ;)
* you cannot at all hear the difference between two lots of heavy gauge speaker cables, FALSE
* you cannot hear the difference between two brands of half-decent CD player, FALSE
* you couldn't possibly, ever, in a million years of trying, hear the difference between mains leads, FALSE
* you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between different types of interconnecting cable. If you can, mend the broken one. FALSE
* turntables should be heavy and level, go round smoothly, and go 'thunk' if tapped with a metal object.
* putting a CD player on any sort of vibration-absorbing pads usually leads to marks on the surface underneath and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* painting CD edges green leads to being laughed-at, and green fingertips, and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* lifting loudspeaker leads off the floor on little pylons is really good for running your son's train-set, and adds a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region
* Nothing can track the digital cannon in the Telarc 1812 Overture properly, because the groove walls are almost at right angles to the spiral.
* proper measurements tell you far more than any hi-fi mag review. Maybe - but why not listen yourself to truly find out?

The points I have ignored I don't have enough personal knowledge on to comment about, but the others I do. But it's all pointless really and the only true test is the one you do yourself, in your own room, with your own gear and music but most of all, your own ears. The rest is just a bunch of words.

:cool:

[Spectral Morn]

I thought it might be of interest to read this comment placed on the woodworking forum I inhabit - in the general chat section.

There are good and great hi-fi designs, and there are some rules of thumb:


* you can hardly, ever, hear the difference between two competently-designed amplifiers,

I can


* you cannot at all hear the difference between two lots of heavy gauge speaker cables,

I can



* you cannot hear the difference between two brands of half-decent CD player,

I can


* you couldn't possibly, ever, in a million years of trying, hear the difference between mains leads,

I can


* you shouldn't be able to hear the difference between different types of interconnecting cable. If you can, mend the broken one.

I can


* turntables should be heavy and level, go round smoothly, and go 'thunk' if tapped with a metal object.

Perhaps that is one type of idea design but not the only one.


* putting a CD player on any sort of vibration-absorbing pads usually leads to marks on the surface underneath and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region

Rubbish I can here the differences.


* painting CD edges green leads to being laughed-at, and green fingertips, and a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region

Strangely I do recall hearing differences and doing blind tests with customers at the time and they too could hear the difference; preferring the treated CDs.


* lifting loudspeaker leads off the floor on little pylons is really good for running your son's train-set, and adds a perceptible lightness in the upper wallet region

No idea never tried it.


* Nothing can track the digital cannon in the Telarc 1812 Overture properly, because the groove walls are almost at right angles to the spiral.

No idea don't have it.


* proper measurements tell you far more than any hi-fi mag review.

Yeah right, not



and finally,

* there are more snake-oil salesmen in hi-fi than in snake oil.

There are certainly a few yes but if one hears a difference but can't explain it then was there no difference because you can't explain it. I have heard differences and improvements with many things over the years but could not always explain why.


I reckon there might be one or two points up for discussion:) It would be useful to have some more ammunition when I try and make conversation.

No all it will achieve is circular arguments of the usual type with subjectavists vs objectavists and war being declared re people hearing and people not hearing. I know what I can and can't hear and I wont take a lecture (well meaning or not) from someone who was not sitting in my room at the time I heard what I heard. I don't doubt there are folks who can't hear stuff but does that mean the rest of us who can can't? Best not to go there.....


Regards D S D L

[Gordon Steadman]

This is what I wrote to him.

How strange, I find that actually agree with at least two of those points.

However, I have five complete hi-fi systems. All consist of first class components designed and made by Quad, Radford, Sugden, Kef, Garrard etc..

If what you say is true, how is it that changing any one item in the various systems, changes the sound?

That is FOR ME - WITH MY EARS AND SENSITIVITIES. The problem with a statement such as yours is that it can only be true for you, you have no idea what my system (bodywise) is going to hear in my various systems (hi-fiwise). Measurements can only be a guide. Hi-fi is, at best, an approximation of reality and even reality is filtered by our individual make up and experience. Some equipment seems to sound more REAL than others even if they measure very similarly. This is my experience. If yours is different then so be it.

I don't drink snake oil and I never listen to hi-fi salesmen. I buy with my ears - what's left of them. I am, by training, a guitar maker. I have a fairly well developed sensitivity to nuances of sound. This is necessary to make a first class instrument. There are basic measurements but the final tuning of the instrument is made by ear.

My best hi-fi - Leak Stereo 20, Quad ESL57, Garrard 301, sounds very close indeed when playing a recording of one of my guitars. By todays standards they probably don't measure too well, all being made in the 1960's but they make glorious music and music is what hi-fi should be for.

His answer was just to repeat it really and then say that his record player was a Connoisseur BD2/SAU2 and he didn't think much of my 301. I guess it was just a waste of time then!!

It did pass a few minutes though whilst my pancakes were digested and before I return to the listening room.

[Spectral Morn]

This is what I wrote to him.

How strange, I find that actually agree with at least two of those points.

However, I have five complete hi-fi systems. All consist of first class components designed and made by Quad, Radford, Sugden, Kef, Garrard etc..

If what you say is true, how is it that changing any one item in the various systems, changes the sound?

That is FOR ME - WITH MY EARS AND SENSITIVITIES. The problem with a statement such as yours is that it can only be true for you, you have no idea what my system (bodywise) is going to hear in my various systems (hi-fiwise). Measurements can only be a guide. Hi-fi is, at best, an approximation of reality and even reality is filtered by our individual make up and experience. Some equipment seems to sound more REAL than others even if they measure very similarly. This is my experience. If yours is different then so be it.

I don't drink snake oil and I never listen to hi-fi salesmen. I buy with my ears - what's left of them. I am, by training, a guitar maker. I have a fairly well developed sensitivity to nuances of sound. This is necessary to make a first class instrument. There are basic measurements but the final tuning of the instrument is made by ear.

My best hi-fi - Leak Stereo 20, Quad ESL57, Garrard 301, sounds very close indeed when playing a recording of one of my guitars. By todays standards they probably don't measure too well, all being made in the 1960's but they make glorious music and music is what hi-fi should be for.

His answer was just to repeat it really and then say that his record player was a Connoisseur BD2/SAU2 and he didn't think much of my 301. I guess it was just a waste of time then!!

It did pass a few minutes though whilst my pancakes were digested and before I return to the listening room.

Hi Gordon

Yep exactly why such chats are a waste of time.


Regards D S D L

[John]

Neil is right someone who thinks like this is not going to change their minds I will happly continue to listen to great music via a system that has been modified over the years by my own ears and experiences and could not give a f--- what someones else thinks about my approach

[Haselsh1]

May I add, a waste of his time but certainly not yours...!!!

[Haselsh1]

Neil is right someone who thinks like this is not going to change their minds I will happly continue to listen to great music via a system that has been modified over the years by my own ears and experiences and could not give a f--- what someones else thinks about my approach

So true, so very true.

[Welder]

I can’t agree with any of that list bar the snake oil Hi Fi salesmen bit :lolsign:

The problem here is a quite complicated set of conditions, in which you are unlikely to hear differences, have been distilled into a smart quip post.
I can make to two same make and model amps sound different in my system for example, never mind different makes :rolleyes:

In the end if people are listening to music on whatever kit they may have, what is and what isn’t provable in set conditions doesn’t really matter. There are Hi Fi beliefs that I have proven to myself to be nonsense and others I’m still not sure about :eyebrows:

This is a fairly accurate summary of where I stand (or wobble ;)) and if I could do one single thing for audio it would be to get the subjectivists and objectivists out of their respective trenches and talking to each other with the single goal of getting better quality audio.

“Any change to the testing methods used is not going to happen overnight, and nor are we going to be able to see immediately which problems cause a difference, and which ones have little apparent effect. Time, patience, and careful correlation of the data are essential if this is to succeed. There are laws of physics, and there are ears. Somewhere the two must meet in common ground. We already know that this happens, since there are amplifiers that sound excellent - according to a large number of owners, reviewers, etc. - now we need to know why.
There is a test method (or a series of methods) that will allow us to obtain a suite of tests that makes sense to designers and listeners alike, so we can get closer to the ideal amplifier, namely the mythical "straight wire with gain", but from the listener perspective rather than the senseless repetition of tests that seem to have no bearing on the perceived quality of the amp. This is not to say that the standard tests are redundant (far from it), but they do not seem to reveal enough information.
For this to succeed, the subjectivists must be convinced, as must the "objectivists". We are all looking for the same thing - the flawless reproduction of sound - but the two camps have drifted further and further apart over the years.
These are my musings, and I am open to suggestions for other testing methods that may reveal the subtle differences that undeniably exist between amplifiers. At the moment we have a chasm between those who can (or think they can) hear the difference between a valve and an opamp, a bipolar junction transistor and a MOSFET, or Brand "A" versus Brand "B", and those who claim that there is no difference at all.
The fact that there are differences is obvious. The degree of difference and why there are differences is not. It would be nice for all lovers of music (and the accurate reproduction of same) if we can arrive at a mutually agreeable explanation for these differences, that is accurate, repeatable, and measurable.
If these criteria are not met, then the assessment is not useful to either camp, and the chasm will simply widen. This is bad news for all - it is high time we all get together and stop arguing amongst ourselves whether (for example) it is better to use one brand of capacitor in the signal path or another.
These testing methods can also be applied to the measurement of individual components, speaker cables, interconnects and preamps, particularly the SIM tester. Using the amplifier power sink test with different cables and speakers might give us some clues as to why so many people are adamant that one speaker cable sounds better than another, even though there is no measurable difference using conventional means.
The greatest benefit of these tests is that they will reveal things we have not been looking at (or for) in the past, and may show differences that come as a very great surprise to designers and listeners alike.”
Quote from Rod Elliot (ESP)

[Haselsh1]

I honestly don't really need some jumped up little dick telling me that there is no difference between valves and transistors and vinyl and compact disc when I damn well know there is as I can quite clearly hear the difference with my own ears. OK so I allow people like this to offend me and that is a failing on my part but why do such people feel the need to make such a comment on a subject they clearly know nothing about...?

[Reid Malenfant]

What bugs me is why objectivists still find the need for better equipment than a Matsui stack system from Argos if it all sounds the same? :scratch:

:eyebrows:

[John]

I think you mean Objectivist Lol:ner::lolsign:

[Reid Malenfant]

:lolsign: ooops, edit time :o

[Z-A]

Hi Gordon,
Out of interest as a woodworker, what forum was this posted on? Tbh I don't do woodwork forums, it's the last thing I'd do when I get home, but I'll have a look for fun..
See you have made some guitars, have considered making a classical for several years but don't seem to have the time, maybe one day!
Cheers, Paul

[Dingdong]

What bugs me is why objectivists still find the need for better equipment than a Matsui stack system from Argos if it all sounds the same? :scratch:

:eyebrows:

Everybody knows the £16.49 one from Tesco is the best. It's been voted on don't you know.
Should take one to Scalford and go even cheaper than last year.

[technobear]

Lawks! :rolleyes:

[worthingpagan]

What bugs me is why objectivists still find the need for better equipment than a Matsui stack system from Argos if it all sounds the same? :scratch:

:eyebrows:


Exactly :cool:

[bobbasrah]

Lawks! :rolleyes:

Even more exactly....
:lolsign: