RCM's Again

[flaxman]

Ok peeps....I have to make a choice of either the Okki Nokki, or the Moth Mark II Pro. I know you have had these sorts of threads before but I would appreciate you humouring me on this :) I've been looking at the write ups and they aren't that conclusive. The Moth is a tad dearer but to be honest looks a bit plasticy, which it probably mostly is. The Okki Nokki has the disadvantage of having a platter which can re-contaminate the record, so all in all I still don't know. I quite like the other machines, Loricraft, Clearaudio, VPI, Hannl and suchlike but they are a bit out of my league cost wise.

[hifi_dave]

I bought an original Moth when it first came out, in the 90's and it has been used in a busy shop environment ever since. It is very efficient and never had the slightest hiccup despite cleaning many tens of thousands of LP's over that time.

We did have a couple of other machines before this current Moth but they weren't very reliable and were ditched.

I recommend the Moth highly.

[Ammonite Audio]

I have the Clearaudio Smart Matrix, which is in effect an Okki Nokki in a smarter box with an acrylic lid (Clearaudio make the Okki Nokki). It's basic but effective - I don't think there's any risk attached to buying the cheaper Okki Nokki, other than the need to keep it covered when not in use. I'm sure the Moth is good too, but I have no experience of that.

[wiicrackpot]

Owned the Okki Nokki for a short while before i moved it on, while adequate enough but one thing i noticed is the centre spindle and screw down puck is not made from the best of material, the hold down puck could be bigger for ease of handling but thats only a minor issue, what was more worrying is the metal fatique i noticed on the spindle and periodic metal shavings/dust coming away, doubt you could use it for the number of years Dave has managed with his Moth.

Have just bought a Hanss RCM,we'll see if this is any better.

[julesd68]

I've just bought a Hanss Acoustics too!

Waiting for my 5L of purified water to arrive so haven't had the chance to use it yet; but am most impressed by the build quality so far, just hope it works as good as it looks ...

It's my first RCM and before buying that I was looking at the Kuzma on ebay - it can be bought from a reliable seller in HK for just over £300 delivered but then you'll have to pay some import duty aswell. Worth a look.

[wiicrackpot]

Julian, thats the deal i got from a U.K. dealer, can't complain at the price.:)

Anybody recco a good RCM fluid to buy?.

[JazzBones]

I bought an original Moth when it first came out, in the 90's and it has been used in a busy shop environment ever since. It is very efficient and never had the slightest hiccup despite cleaning many tens of thousands of LP's over that time.

We did have a couple of other machines before this current Moth but they weren't very reliable and were ditched.

I recommend the Moth highly.

Dave, I bought the Moth Pro in the late 90s and it is solidly built, but not pretty, and it comes with a lid too! Heavy beast and bloody noisy but it cleans records without re-contaminating the flip side after been cleaned....Duz me and to keep costs down I believe the Moth can be bought as a kit, you provide the body work, etc. thus saving some money. When a dealer whose be around as long as you (you must be very old by now Dave :lol:) recommends and has long time usage of the machine it must have something going for it. I really doubt that the big buck machines cleaned any better, but you pay for the badge thing?

Ron

[flaxman]

I really appreciate all of your inputs and what you have said certainly helped me to make my decision.
I have now acquired a Moth Mark II Pro. :)

[hifi_dave]

Bloody heck - that was quick. These threads usually drag on for weeks.:rolleyes:


As for Ron's comment - I'm pretty certain there must be someone older than me on here.:wheniwasaboy:

[Audioman]

Owned the Okki Nokki for a short while before i moved it on, while adequate enough but one thing i noticed is the centre spindle and screw down puck is not made from the best of material, the hold down puck could be bigger for ease of handling but thats only a minor issue, what was more worrying is the metal fatique i noticed on the spindle and periodic metal shavings/dust coming away, doubt you could use it for the number of years Dave has managed with his Moth.

Have just bought a Hanss RCM,we'll see if this is any better.

I have not noticed metal fatigue so far with my Okki Nokki. They do a good job. It may be the problem was resolved on later production. There is now an optional dust cover that fits the mkii and iii versions.

[JazzBones]

As for Ron's comment - I'm pretty certain there must be someone older than me on here.:wheniwasaboy:

Yup Dave, probably me, ermm who are you and where am I? :eek::santa:

Ron :scratch:

[MCRU]

Bloody heck - that was quick. These threads usually drag on for weeks.:rolleyes:



I like decisive....:)

[wiicrackpot]

I have not noticed metal fatigue so far with my Okki Nokki. They do a good job. It may be the problem was resolved on later production. There is now an optional dust cover that fits the mkii and iii versions.

Maybe i've been a bit pernickity but my version was before the dust cover, it did a good job as you said.

wii.

[julesd68]

Julian, thats the deal i got from a U.K. dealer, can't complain at the price.:)

Anybody recco a good RCM fluid to buy?.

Wii - if you need a dust cover for your Hanss Acoustic, I just found one for a laser printer which should fit quite nicely - £4 delivered here ...

http://www.thepcoutlet.co.uk/product.asp?code=420549

As for fluid L'art du son is about £30 a bottle but is very concentrated so makes up about 5 litres of fluid - I bought this one coz I wanted one without alcohol ... Don't tell Marco if you buy one of these as he'll go a bit mental with you - he likes to make his own home brew ;)

[wiicrackpot]

Wii - if you need a dust cover for your Hanss Acoustic, I just found one for a laser printer which should fit quite nicely - £4 delivered here ...

http://www.thepcoutlet.co.uk/product.asp?code=420549

As for fluid L'art du son is about £30 a bottle but is very concentrated so makes up about 5 litres of fluid - I bought this one coz I wanted one without alcohol ... Don't tell Marco if you buy one of these as he'll go a bit mental with you - he likes to make his own home brew ;)

Julian,

Cover ordered thanks. :cool:

Thanks for the fluid recommendation, didnae know Marco was a Dexter Laboratory guy.:lol: seriously, didn't you can make your own?, is it worth the bother i wonder.:scratch:

wii.

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's both worth the bother & worth the saving you'll make over buying a proprietary product. I bought my Moth years ago, used up the boughten stuff that came with it & ever since then I have shaken up my own concoction.

[wiicrackpot]

Just received my Hanss Acoustic RCM, mightily impressed with finish and packaging, power cord and cleaning brush has it's slot on the thick foam top and underside has slot where suction arm can be shipped/kept in situ when putting away after use, none of this having to dismantle put things in zip bags as is the case with Okki Nokki, centre puck is friction fit instead of screw down, will try it out in the weekend and if it cleans as well as the O.N., i'm a happy bunny.

Chris, care to post the ingredients of concoction.:)

[julesd68]

Having some time on my hands I have done quite a bit of research on the whole RCM mullarkey - probably far more than is healthy! :hmm:

Anyway - it seems the choice of water is worth thinking about. Having sniffed around a few medical supply websites, I have found you can by de-ionised, de-mineralised, distilled and purified water. It seems that purified water is the best you can buy. It's only economic buying it on-line if you are buying truck-loads of it, so best thing is to do what I have done, and phone around your local chemists and ask for a 5 litre bottle of purified water. I managed to find a couple of chemists selling locally - aim to be paying around £4 for the five litres.

I am now looking forward to actually cleaning a few records!

Will report back on how I find the Hanss RCM.

[flaxman]

Thats intersting jules....when my Moth arrives I shall be paying a visit to my local chemist. I have just bought some of that L'Art Du Son so can't wait until the machine gets here.

Dipped into crimble money to buy this so Mrs will have to put up with Lush perfume this year....if its vinyl or the Mrs theres no competition :)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Chris, care to post the ingredients of concoction.:)

Certainly!
I use water:isopropanol alcohol to a proportion of 3:1 & then a drop or two of something to act as a wetting agent. It's washing up liquid usually, but I have been known to use other adjuvants that I probably shouldn't disclose, as it almost certainly contravenes the pesticides regulations!
However, you could add a dash of Worcester sauce to taste if you feel like it.

[wiicrackpot]

Certainly!
I use water:isopropanol alcohol to a proportion of 3:1 & then a drop or two of something to act as a wetting agent. It's washing up liquid usually, but I have been known to use other adjuvants that I probably shouldn't disclose, as it almost certainly contravenes the pesticides regulations!
However, you could add a dash of Worcester sauce to taste if you feel like it.

:scratch: you are pulling my leg right. :) thought washing up liquid was harmful to vinyl and WORCESTER SAUCE!! :stalks:, think Art D'son and be done with.

Thanks.

[The Grand Wazoo]

The washing up liquid is not a joke. It's not there to act as a detergent, it's a wetting adjuvant - there to make the water & alcohol stick to the playing surface. Literally only one or two drops to a 1 litre mixture.

[Reid Malenfant]

:scratch: you are pulling my leg right. :) thought washing up liquid was harmful to vinyl and WORCESTER SAUCE!! :stalks:, think Art D'son and be done with.

Thanks.
I'll back Chris up on this one :) Look up wetting agent on google or whatever. The tiny amount of washing up liquid allows the liquid cleaner to access all of the record groove.

Have you ever seen videos of pond skaters on water? Well the washing up liquid reduces the surface tension on the record so it can all be cleaned :) Water doesn't like going everywhere surprisingly :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Mark's got it it one there. It's also called a surfactant.
Without it you'll often see the liquid pooling together in concentric rings around the record rather spreading evenly across the surface. Break the surface tension & the water miraculously covers the whole record.

[wiicrackpot]

Thanks guys, :thumbsup:we'll see how i go but ready mixed one's atill appeal more i think.

[Audioman]

L'art du Son needs a rinse with purified water as I'm sure it leaves a deposit. It also alters the sound in a way that is positive or negative depending on the recording, system or taste. Cleaning with alcohol based mixture such as Okki Nokki appears to leave little behind after vacuming and evaporation. Sound is also more Neutral.

I have found using L'art du Son followed by Okki Nokki fluid works well though this is opposite way round to other's recommendations. L'art du Son enhances mid range (warmer sound) but I have sometimes noticed an increase in surface noise where a new pressing itself is initialy noisy.

[julesd68]

I'm summoning up the courage but am getting quite nervous about cleaning my first record - there's a lot riding on this!!

When the record has been cleaned do you just leave it to "air-dry"?

[The Grand Wazoo]

If you've bought a vacuum machine, it will be dried - that's the point of the vacuum. It sucks off the liquid from the surface and from deep down in the grooves, taking the mucky stuff with it.

[julesd68]

:doh: yes of course ...

I've read so much about record cleaning that my brain is turning to mush!

[Audioman]

If you've bought a vacuum machine, it will be dried - that's the point of the vacuum. It sucks off the liquid from the surface and from deep down in the grooves, taking the mucky stuff with it.

Depends. If you are doing a number of records and the suction tube pads are damp, a little fluid will be left after the recommended 2/3 revolutions with the vac. More sucking may result in putting a static charge back on the disc or even damage. In short it is not necessarily desirable to vacuum a record dead dry.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's kind of contrary to my experiences with my Moth RCM, Paul.
I've been using it for years & years & done a session or two where I've cleaned up to 40 records. I always vacuum them until bone dry (never requiring more than 3 rotations).
If it didn't come off the machine dry, then I'd be concerned, because leaving it to dry in the air is only giving the airbourne dust an opportunity to settle on the record and leaving you open to damaging the playing surface.
If for some reason I get distracted & it goes round a few more turns, then static's never been a problem.
I can't speak for any other machine than the Moth though.

[keiths]

I usualy vacuum for 6 revolutions (three in each direction) and haven't had any problems with either static or damage.

[Audioman]

That's kind of contrary to my experiences with my Moth RCM, Paul.
I've been using it for years & years & done a session or two where I've cleaned up to 40 records. I always vacuum them until bone dry (never requiring more than 3 rotations).
If it didn't come off the machine dry, then I'd be concerned, because leaving it to dry in the air is only giving the airbourne dust an opportunity to settle on the record and leaving you open to damaging the playing surface.
If for some reason I get distracted & it goes round a few more turns, then static's never been a problem.
I can't speak for any other machine than the Moth though.

The Moth may be different. It sucks from underneath. My Okki Nokki and others suck from above and the vacuum pressure holds the arm down onto the disk. Okki Nokki instructions say 2 revolutions but 3 or 4 is OK. Better safe than sorry anyway. The amount of fluid left is small and evaporates in a couple minutes.

[wiicrackpot]

Used the same method as Paul when i owned the Okki Nokki briefly, no more than 2 revolutions then onto a drying rack, on the third record, drying time would be sufficient for the Alcohol base solution to evaporate, i'd start putting the 1st one i cleaned away,worked like clockwork and no issues with airborne particles landing on it, very pleased with results.

Just to add after 2 revolutions, it is dry with no streaks to be seen, just that i am pedantic and want the grooves to be absolutely dry before i put it back in a Nagoaka pvc sleeve.

pic of drying rack.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2061/001myw.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/001myw.jpg/)
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9624/002vgv.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/002vgv.jpg/)

wii.

[The Grand Wazoo]

.......and you weren't in the least bit worried about putting naked records into, & taking them out of that rack?

[wiicrackpot]

No Chris, it is actually a record rack that can hold 50 record the rods are smooth plastic and the wood base is actually very steady, bought in charity shop, i think it's a throw back to Dansette days where kids just put their records on a rack like that i've got, very glad i came across it.

wii.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Aaah OK, all's good then!

[flaxman]

So the L' art du son is biodegradable and must be kept in a darkened space, does this also apply to the liquids one makes up with the purified water mixed in with the L'art du son?

[Audioman]

So the L' art du son is biodegradable and must be kept in a darkened space, does this also apply to the liquids one makes up with the purified water mixed in with the L'art du son?

I keep the made up liquid in the fridge to prevent any chance of degradation.

[flaxman]

Thanks to all for your inputs, however I haven't finished with this subject yet...as others have said it appears to be a complex and for some never ending subject.

Has anybody got a good source for the Moth RCM pads that stick on the vacumn arm of the machine?

[MCRU]

£5 for 2 sets plus postage John.

[Lee Henley]

Whils we are on the subject of RCM's whats the general consensus on making a home brew liquid to clean the records.

I have now finished my home made RCM and it works a treat, quite proud of it to be honest and many thanks to fellow art of sound memeber "oceanobsession" for helping me out through the way.

I am about to get me some IPA from maplins, Ive got the distilled water, just got to get me the photo stuff or can I use fabric conditioner to break the surface tension of the water?

Any help much appreciated

Lee

[keiths]

I use Kodak PhotoFlo or whatever it's called, but I suspect cheap washing-up liquid or similar works just as well. You're not using much of it after all.

[Lee Henley]

Thanks for that, any idea as to what ratio people prefer to use for the distilled water to IPA?

Cheers

Lee

[Dingdong]

4 parts water. 1 part ipa. Doesn't have to be exact.

[keiths]

4 parts water. 1 part ipa. Doesn't have to be exact.

That's exactly what I use - 100ml IPA in a 500ml bottle topped up with distilled water. Add wetting agent (PhotoFlow, washing up liquid etc) a few drops at a time with a pipette, shake then test by dropping a little of the mix from a pipette onto a tile/mirror/glass etc and seeing if the drop spreads out nicely - if it doesn't, add a bit more wetting agent and repeat until it does.

I also use a pipette to apply the fluid to the record - 2 to 2.5ml per side is just right.

[Lee Henley]

Cheers guys, finally is there a specific brush that people use on here to apply the liquid, I was going to use my carbon fibre brush I use to clean the record prior to playing it, but if there is anything better then let me know

Thanks

Lee

[keiths]

Cheers guys, finally is there a specific brush that people use on here to apply the liquid

I like the KAB DiscSweep brush from http://www.kabusa.com

When I bought mine earlier this year it cost about £15 including delivery (which took just over 1 week).