Valve amp blues...

[Haselsh1]

I've been using an Icon Audio Stereo 20 PP since April of this year and have found it to have all of the classic valve hallmarks, stunning midrange, openness and clarity but I just long for the volume, weight and slam of a big gutsy tranny amp. What the hell is wrong with me...?

Maybe I could combine a big bold tranny amp with a valve preamp...? Please discuss.

[Clive]

I've been using an Icon Audio Stereo 20 PP since April of this year and have found it to have all of the classic valve hallmarks, stunning midrange, openness and clarity but I just long for the volume, weight and slam of a big gutsy tranny amp. What the hell is wrong with me...?

Maybe I could combine a big bold tranny amp with a valve preamp...? Please discuss.
Maybe the speakers aren't the perfect match for a 15W amp? Not that I know the amp or speakers....just something else to consider.

[IHP]

Or a hybrid amp - Croft ? Sorry, I'm a recent convert !

I have heard a valve amp. slam like a sledgehammer but it was a McIntosh 275 and quite pricey. I'm sure there are others with such qualities but my experience of such beats is reasonably limited.

[Haselsh1]

Maybe the speakers aren't the perfect match for a 15W amp? Not that I know the amp or speakers....just something else to consider.

Yes Clive, I would really like a pair of Audio Note AZ-2's at 93db/W/m which are also floorstanders with a lot more bass and scale but at just over a grand a pair, I'd have to wait quite a while. I also know that the AZ-2's have a gorgeous midrange. My Dali's by the way are around 88db/W/m.

[Haselsh1]

Or a hybrid amp - Croft ? Sorry, I'm a recent convert !

I have heard a valve amp. slam like a sledgehammer but it was a McIntosh 275 and quite pricey. I'm sure there are others with such qualities but my experience of such beats is reasonably limited.

I used a Croft pre/power combination just over a year ago but the quality of finish I found particularly shoddy so I won't be putting my cash back into one of those in a hurry. I will admit though that the detail resolution of that amp was one of the best I had ever heard in over thirty years of being involved with Hi-Fi.

[Reid Malenfant]

If you put an oscilloscope onto a pair of speaker terminals you'll find that most of the power resides below 150Hz or so. Above this frequency power input to the speaker gradually reduces as frequency increases.

The problem is that your amp is having to do everything, the whole audio spectrum. If you could just drive your speakers above say 100 - 150Hz with your valve amp & use a solid state amp to drive some kind of bass speaker I think you'd be amazed at the difference in volume levels you'd be able to produce :eyebrows:

Better still if you happened to have 3 way speakers & could use the valve jobby above 500Hz. The thing is you don't want to Bi-amp as the valve amp would still be required to produce big voltage swings at bass frequencies even if it's doing no power as such. That would lead to clipping. What you need to do is use an active crossover & feed above 500Hz to the valve amp & below 500Hz to a bass driver.

In a 3 way system you could then remove or bypass the bass crossover section in the speaker & that would be fully active. Feed the valve amp to the remains & the crossover would split between midrange & treble & go a hell of a lot louder :cool:

[simon g]

If you hadn't seen them, there's a pair of AZ-2s on ebay at the moment.

[julesd68]

Maybe I could combine a big bold tranny amp with a valve preamp

I absolutely love using a valve pre with solid state power - it has turned out to be the perfect combination for me. I highly recommend you try it. I recently experimented with hybrid power amps but they were'nt dynamic enough for me - they just didn't have the "weight and slam" that you mention.

My speakers are roughly 88db and they love the power of my Quad power amp. I had previously experimented with a 45W battery amp which had a wonderful clarity but really struggled with the transients of the mainly orchestral music that I listen to.

[Clive]

If you put an oscilloscope onto a pair of speaker terminals you'll find that most of the power resides below 150Hz or so. Above this frequency power input to the speaker gradually reduces as frequency increases.

The problem is that your amp is having to do everything, the whole audio spectrum. If you could just drive your speakers above say 100 - 150Hz with your valve amp & use a solid state amp to drive some kind of bass speaker I think you'd be amazed at the difference in volume levels you'd be able to produce :eyebrows:

Better still if you happened to have 3 way speakers & could use the valve jobby above 500Hz. The thing is you don't want to Bi-amp as the valve amp would still be required to produce big voltage swings at bass frequencies even if it's doing no power as such. That would lead to clipping. What you need to do is use an active crossover & feed above 500Hz to the valve amp & below 500Hz to a bass driver.

In a 3 way system you could then remove or bypass the bass crossover section in the speaker & that would be fully active. Feed the valve amp to the remains & the crossover would split between midrange & treble & go a hell of a lot louder :cool:
This sits well with my preferences too. I run 8W amps into 100db efficiency speakers, with bass from 90Hz into 4 x 15" drivers fed from two 300W amps with DSP...I'm in transition to this from two 18" drivers.

[Jonboy]

Maybe I could combine a big bold tranny amp with a valve preamp...? Please discuss.


I know someone who does this using Mcintosh stuff into Tannoy Westminsters, works very well but big money

[AndrewR]

I've been using an Icon Audio Stereo 20 PP since April of this year and have found it to have all of the classic valve hallmarks, stunning midrange, openness and clarity but I just long for the volume, weight and slam of a big gutsy tranny amp. What the hell is wrong with me...?

Maybe I could combine a big bold tranny amp with a valve preamp...? Please discuss.

There are valve amps with more slam and better timing than Icon Audio. Tsakaridis for example. My own designs for another. Audio Note for one more.

Andrew

[Haselsh1]

You see, if I listen to music by Lloyd Cole, Nick Drake, Harper Simon, Jakob Dylan or Jason Mraz all of which is exquisitely recorded, my system sounds superb with the most beautiful midrange and delicate treble but when I listen to spaced out, syncopated rock like the Ozrics, it sounds pretty dire. Could it just be a music thing...? I really do appreciate your comments. Many thanks everyone.

[Reid Malenfant]

Aye, it's a music thing ;) Less demanding stuff will not be a problem for a 15W amp...Add in bass & it all fall to pieces :rolleyes:

You have a choice, much more effecient speakers that go down low or something more powerful for the lower octaves ;)

[Jonboy]

You have a choice, much more effecient speakers that go down low or something more powerful for the lower octaves ;)



Synergy again is the operative word, the AZ2's are very good, i still get blown away with the bass from these little speakers, my son uses them in his bedroom system and i still think he has a sub hiding somewhere

[The Grand Wazoo]

Works well for me:
ARC SP8 pre
Levinson ML9 & ML11 power amps

[Macca]

Works well for me:
ARC SP8 pre
Levinson ML9 & ML11 power amps

Not really in the same league as that but I do find my Croft micro/Linn LK100 combo gives that sweet but crunchy sound I that I like, and bass depth and slam are awesome especially with vinyl played on the SL1200.

[Marco]

There are valve amps with more slam and better timing than Icon Audio. Tsakaridis for example. My own designs for another. Audio Note for one more.


And anything that Anthony Matthews (of Tube Distinctions http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/main.htm) would make, or Nick Gorham, for two more! ;)

Give them your available budget, Shaun, and tell them to build you the best amp they can for that money and you will get something that will sonically outperform ANY commercially produced valve (pre or power) amp at many times your budget! I have extensive personal experience of using equipment from both Anthony and Nick, and it is superb and beyond reproach on all levels.

It's a simple formula: remove the overheads of a commercial manufacturer from the equation, and you have more money to spend on the important stuff that goes under the hood!! :)

Marco.

[Dingdong]

I've been thinking about trying a valve amp for a while, but was worried I might lose out a bit in the lower frequencies.
The solution has been a pair of World Audio Kel80 monoblocks that I just picked up for a rather good price. 80w of parallel push-pull EL34's. Compared with my previous amp, a LinnLK280, the mid-high is pretty amazin'. The low frequency stuff has plenty of oomph. And it helps keep the house warm.
I know that some say that valve watts present themselves better than ss watts, but I think with a 15w amp you need pretty sensitive speakers to get the right balance of sound out of them. Or maybe an active sub.

[YNWaN]

There are valve amps with more slam and better timing than Icon Audio. Tsakaridis for example. My own designs for another. Audio Note for one more.

Andrew

The above by Andrew echoes my own experience. I would also say that whilst 88db isn't profoundly inefficient, it isn't particularly efficient either.

[JJack]

I run KT-88 monoblocs (2-KT88 per side) into one of four sets of speakers that I alternate depending on my mood. When I want to rock out I use a pair of Meadowlark speakers (floor standers, about 65 pounds each, running a ScanSpeak 170mm mid-woofer in a transmission line)

With my amps in Class A mode they make 25 watts/channel.

I use these to drive a pair of 84.5 db transmission line speakers to in-room levels of over 100 db (yes, the math doesn't work). The speakers are inefficient, but a very valve-friendly load.

I find valve bass intoxicating: witness the bass drum pedal on Clash's Brand New Cadillac, or the drum solo on Take Five. Organ music gives full measure below 32 hertz. In fairness, it is a bit slower than solid state, but only just.

I guess what I'm saying is to try to stick with valves and look for the right combo and you can find magic.

[Haselsh1]

Unorthodox Behaviour by Brand X and Moroccan Roll by Brand X both prove the quality of bass drum I have is up there with the best I have ever heard and one thing I don't want to do is to lose the rhythm and drive that this amplifier puts into the music but a bit more volume would be very welcome. At the moment my amplifier's volume control is on the ten to position and it is just a shade too quiet. If I push it much further than this I can hear it clipping or at least I think I can hear it clipping. I am very sure that I need some very efficient floorstanders to maximise the headroom and give more bass weight. Either that or I need to go back to transistors.

[Stratmangler]

They're not the most efficient of speakers, and bass out of a smallish box always takes a fair degree of power http://www.dalispeakers.co.uk/files/IKON_1.pdf

[John]

I suggest hear a few different approaches before you decide Its great way of meeting some good people and will ensure you get it right

[Haselsh1]

I understand that the Audio Notes have an eight inch paper cone which I also understand is going to be a lot better at producing bass than a tiny little doped job like the ones in the Dali's so I am kind of clear about where I am heading. I do kind of understand the physics behind it and I remember back to 2004 when I actually owned a pair of AZ-2's with a pair of Avreovox Arcana monoblocks and pre. They were kindly supplied by Haden Boardman via ebay but for some reason I still wasn't totally happy at that time. I now have an amplifier that has plenty of drive and energy but lacks the Watts to produce that slightly louder than normal listening level. I simply don't want my music quiet, I want it at normal level then a tiny bit more. I kind of get the impression that an EL34 PP amplifier would be fine at around 30 Watts but then it wouldn't be an EL84 would it...? I also know that the EL34 midrange is to die for but that their bass is pretty awful. OK so I have months to decide one way or the other. Thanks so far for all of your input.

[YNWaN]

Get speakers that are more efficient then.

[Haselsh1]

I do also understand that to hear a significant change in volume there has to be an increase in sensitivity of 3db or more due to the inverse square law and that going from my Dali's to a pair of AZ-2's would present a change of 6db. Now that is around an increase of four times. There is also the fact that the bigger paper cone is going to improve my bass considerably and the AZ-2's have a wonderfully 'airy' quality to their sound.

If I sound like I have already made up my mind then it is because I am kind of convinced I ought to buy a pair of Audio Note AZ-2's. My doubt...? A one thousand pound pair of speakers on the end of a five hundred quid amp. That makes no sense.

[julesd68]

My doubt...? A one thousand pound pair of speakers on the end of a five hundred quid amp. That makes no sense.

I really think that totally depends on the synergy in the system. My Quad 405-2 has seen off much more expensive amps in my system, and that's hooked up to speakers that cost well over a grand back in the day. If it works, it works and don't worry about what things cost.

[Dingdong]

I have a £300 pound pair of monos and a £350 pre hooked up to £10 speakers. Sounds bloody lovely.
Don't worry about the price. Worry how they go together.

[Macca]

50% of the price of the Audionotes is probably dealer mark up and VAT anyway ;)

[Ali Tait]

Try asking Nick if you could hear his open baffles- he lives in Halifax. Can't beat the bass from 15" drivers. Diy baffles are by far the the best sound per pound IMHO, and you'll be looking at about 94 db/w/m.

[DSJR]

Unorthodox Behaviour by Brand X and Moroccan Roll by Brand X both prove the quality of bass drum I have is up there with the best I have ever heard and one thing I don't want to do is to lose the rhythm and drive that this amplifier puts into the music but a bit more volume would be very welcome. At the moment my amplifier's volume control is on the ten to position and it is just a shade too quiet. If I push it much further than this I can hear it clipping or at least I think I can hear it clipping. I am very sure that I need some very efficient floorstanders to maximise the headroom and give more bass weight. Either that or I need to go back to transistors.

There's a fair bit of compression on Unorthodox Behaviour (I have the original vinyl as well as the CD, the latter being extremely underwhelming for some reason...)..

You commented on not liking the finish of the Croft - it was you with the unfortunate swich issue wasn't it? A desperate shame that, as you're now cutting nose off to spite your face of the Croft pairing did what you wanted musically.. maybe of you bought a better switch and gave it to Glenn, he could fit it as a custom-job perhaps?

A valve preamp and solid state power amp works a treat and I've been doing this on and off for some time now.. How about a well lokked after ARC SP9 preamp - simple, good phono stage and a very three dimensional line stage. the price of used ones isn't ridiculous and I think ALL ARC's used decent wiring and components inside, although switch failures aren't uncommon on their pre's either.. I had an SP14 for a while and the sonics were well up to Croft standards - and I mean this as a compliment to both parties here. The "feel" of the product was second to none as well. Other ARC's can sound severely coloured (a criticism of the SP14/15 was that it wasn't "warm toned" enough I seem to recall...) but that's subjective, so over to you on that one..

Power amps? Well, a non harsh toned model at VERY fair prices could be summat like a Quad 606 (mk2 onwards as earlier ones need subtle tweaks to bring them fully up to date I understand). The 606 is too bluff and ordinary looking for those that buy with their eyes, and too "common" and cheap for those who want old once expensive gear (and it's a "QUAD" innit?). The rest of us can smugly enjoy a powerful amp that can easily do atmosphere, musicality and "depth" given the right source, will last for decades yet and will just quietly get on with the job - it drives 4 ohm loads too without falling over or latching up..

So, for under £1500, please consider something like an ARC SP9 (mk2?) with a Quad 606mk2. I think this combo would have a lot to offer and hopefully give you the best of both worlds. Otherwise, look at Puresound?????

[julesd68]

Power amps? Well, a non harsh toned model at VERY fair prices could be summat like a Quad 606 (mk2 onwards as earlier ones need subtle tweaks to bring them fully up to date I understand). The 606 is too bluff and ordinary looking for those that buy with their eyes, and too "common" and cheap for those who want old once expensive gear (and it's a "QUAD" innit?). The rest of us can smugly enjoy a powerful amp that can easily do atmosphere, musicality and "depth" given the right source, will last for decades yet and will just quietly get on with the job - it drives 4 ohm loads too without falling over or latching up..

So, for under £1500, please consider something like an ARC SP9 (mk2?) with a Quad 606mk2. I think this combo would have a lot to offer and hopefully give you the best of both worlds. Otherwise, look at Puresound?????

:exactly: I've auditioned a good few amps this year and nothing has moved me like my 405-2. Since the 909 is about to be discontinued there have been a few dealers offering it at £600 new, but these might have sold out by now. Of course you would also need to be able to get over the fact that it ain't made in Blighty no more ...

[Ali Tait]

... and the components are not quite what they were.

[Haselsh1]

There's a fair bit of compression on Unorthodox Behaviour (I have the original vinyl as well as the CD, the latter being extremely underwhelming for some reason...)..

OK, I'm not bragging too much but, all of my Brand X material is on vinyl and damn fine it is too. In fact my system sounds a lot better on vinyl than it does on CD were it seems to struggle quite a bit with the extra loudness involved. It therefore follows that my system sounds so much better on older recordings than brand new 'extra loud' recordings which I think could be the subject of a whole new thread.

My reference to valve pre and solid state power was maybe to pair up a Croft Micro 25 with a gobsmacking studio power amp of many hundreds of Watts. At least that way I would get some clout and headroom even if I didn't get the purity of valves.

[Reid Malenfant]

My reference to valve pre and solid state power was maybe to pair up a Croft Micro 25 with a gobsmacking studio power amp of many hundreds of Watts. At least that way I would get some clout and headroom even if I didn't get the purity of valves.
Valves are far less "pure" than solid state stuff, it's just that they tend to be built to generate even harmonic distortion, which is musical. So while they actually have more distortion than a transistor amp they sound better with it :eyebrows:

Even harmonics sound musical, odd harmonics don't, so most transistorised amps (depending on topology) get marked down as the little distortion they produce is more noticeable.

[Haselsh1]

Mark, I understand what you've said.

My suggestion to buy a Croft pre and use it with a studio power would of course provide me with a glorious phono stage as well.

[Ali Tait]

Valves are far less "pure" than solid state stuff, it's just that they tend to be built to generate even harmonic distortion, which is musical. So while they actually have more distortion than a transistor amp they sound better with it :eyebrows:

Even harmonics sound musical, odd harmonics don't, so most transistorised amps (depending on topology) get marked down as the little distortion they produce is more noticeable.

Directly Heated Triodes are the most linear amplifying devices yet devised by man. :ner: :lol:

[Reid Malenfant]

Maybe so Ali, though you know what I'm on about :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

I do, but they can be designed to measure well. Only problem is it tends to cost a lot of money!

[Haselsh1]

Directly Heated Triodes are the most linear amplifying devices yet devised by man. :ner: :lol:

The finest and most pure amplifier I have ever heard or owned was a WAD 300PP early model. OK so it hummed a lot. That thing created the finest sense of 'space' and 'air' that I have ever heard. It was astonishing. Words fail me, it was that good and if memory serves me correctly, it was a directly heated triode. Needless to say, I would simply love something similar but there is no way I could afford such luxury. I shall however see how the job situation goes next year. Anything is possible. ;)