View Full Version : Euro approaching end of the line?
There will be some pain it seems but then that is what happens when idealism trumps common sense:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8917077/Prepare-for-riots-in-euro-collapse-Foreign-Office-warns.html
worthingpagan
26-11-2011, 12:51
A "common market" is one thing, but this euro thing is a huge beaurocratic monster. I always thought we would have been better off trading primarily with our commonwealth partners and war allies. Let's face it, we've never got along with most of the Eurozone since way back
I see no problem with our Government preparing to help stranded tourists should the Euro suddenly collapse. Similarly I would expect businesses to take the same preparations to be able to help ex-pat employees sent abroad as part of their employment, either travelling or semi-permanently.
However I have less sympathy with our tax payer's money (any government's only source of the money they spend) being used to support those who willingly chose to up sticks and go and live somewhere 'better'. Is it not a bit like leaving your neighbourhood to go and live in a 'better' area but when it suddenly falls apart asking your old neighbours to bail you out?
I post this as a seed for discussion, not a rant - I am open minded and prepared to be persuaded either way - please discuss :) .
Dave.
tannoy man
26-11-2011, 15:41
The sooner the better, and we can stop throwing good Money after bad.
Empire Building always ends in Tears;)
Spectral Morn
26-11-2011, 15:54
I see a lot of shallow thinking here.
If the eurozone collapses this wont be a gentle switch from one currency to another but a financial disaster which will affect all of us here in the UK. Sadly globilization sees us all interlinked way too closely on multiple levels and if the eurozone goes into melt down it will make the last financial crises look like a walk in the park and it will be global not just restricted to Europe alone.
I am no fan of the European project as a United States of Europe (and make no mistake that is what they wanted to achieve) ruled by faceless unelected unaccountable people in Brussels with democracy a joke (look at the Irish vote to see what a joke Europe and Democracy was and would be. "we don't like the result vote again until we do".) was sheer madness to try for and for other nations to sign up to. Hell Hitler would have loved the idea of it.
However regardless of how I feel about the Euro and the European project I don't want to see it go bang which will take us all out.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
26-11-2011, 15:57
I see no problem with our Government preparing to help stranded tourists should the Euro suddenly collapse. Similarly I would expect businesses to take the same preparations to be able to help ex-pat employees sent abroad as part of their employment, either travelling or semi-permanently.
However I have less sympathy with our tax payer's money (any government's only source of the money they spend) being used to support those who willingly chose to up sticks and go and live somewhere 'better'. Is it not a bit like leaving your neighbourhood to go and live in a 'better' area but when it suddenly falls apart asking your old neighbours to bail you out?
I post this as a seed for discussion, not a rant - I am open minded and prepared to be persuaded either way - please discuss :) .
Dave.
Ummm Dave lets not forget these folks paid taxes for years (and still do) and unless they are no longer citizens of this country then fair enough but if they are, then they deserve are support and help.
Regards D S D L
I don't really agre with the idea that it is too big to fail. Some EU countries will default on their debts and as a consequence some banks will either go under or need to be bailed out, there will be austerity and some pain but business and commerce will still continue as it always has done.
I do think that the longer they try to put off the inevitable the worse the impact will be.
Spectral Morn
26-11-2011, 16:12
I don't really agre with the idea that it is too big to fail. Some EU countries will default on their debts and as a consequence some banks will either go under or need to be bailed out, there will be austerity and some pain but business and commerce will still continue as it always has done.
I do think that the longer they try to put off the inevitable the worse the impact will be.
A controlled with drawl would be preferable but I don't think that is an option now for most of the effected European countries.
However if badly sold/defaulted on mortgages in the USA (sub prime) can start a tidal wave that has put us where we are now what will countries going down the pan do?
Regards D S D L
Ummm Dave lets not forget these folks paid taxes for years and still do, they deserve are support and help.
Regards D S D L
Yes they do, the Euro is crippling friends and relations of ours and us as well come to that, some people wanted to leave this shit hole of a country for a reason because what you end up with in this country after you have worked all your life ain't worth having, so living abroad was very attractive especially when the rate was 1.50 to the pound, now it has dropped down to nearly one for one it is very hard to survive, the banks aren't helping as they now charge to draw money in euros from an English bank account so a lot of people are now stuck and can't get back onto our property ladder.
This was not done for greed just people wanting a better way of life, the health service in France is not free for instance, you have to pay a top up unlike the idiots that control ours and and let any fucker help them selves to it for free who have never paid towards it.
Gorden Brown was offered 2 euro's to the pound at one time and turned it down, was he right or wrong? look what happened to the Irish, millionaires overnight when they joined and now in big trouble.
Like I said, I have no fixed and hard views on this, and maybe, to some extent, I am playing 'agent provocateur' just to seek others' views. I am open to persuasion but regret to say very little has been posted so far.
The ex-pats who left this country, and took their assets with them, for a life they perceived to be better elsewhere did so for their own reasons. They were not persuaded by others or funded by tax payers to do so. I'll admit some of these decisions were influenced by health reasons but these health reasons are, presumably, still applicable, irrespective of the state of the Euro.
So I do not immediately see any reason why the poor souls who chose to remain, or had no choice but to remain, in the UK trying to keep it afloat against an adverse tide in the way the country evolves should be expected to fund their return.
As Granny used to say, "You make your bed and you have to lie in it".
Dave.
I think its time to learn Mandarin
Reid Malenfant
26-11-2011, 17:38
The Euro is already dead, it's just that those up top just don't appear to have noticed yet & want to preserve it no matter what the costs :rolleyes:
As has been mentioned things would be a lot easier if countries that are in the crap such as Greece & Italy & any others with debt equivalent to the GDP could leave in some kind of more orderly manner. Throwing money at them is just going to make things worse. Their interest rates on these loans are already on the order of 7 - 8% in some cases, they simply never will be able to pay the money back.
I fail to understand how Germany & France etc can't see this. Or is it a case of the Germans dreaming of the Fourth Riech & the French doing what they did in WWII for self preservation?
You can bet that the proverbial sh*t is most definately going to hit the fan in a huge way, it's only a question of time. I give it until the end of 2012 :lol: Though it wouldn't surprise me if things got interesting sooner rather than later ;)
Anyone with significant sums of money in banks might like to think about if it's wise to leave it there. In case anyone hasn't noticed our government has guaranteed all savings in one institution up to £50,000, though it may well be £80,000 now... All well & good I say, but in case anyone has noticed if there is a run on the banks & they go bust where are the government going to magic this money from? After all, they are in debt to the banks themselves :D
I suggest everyone clicks on that little "money is debt" link in my signature & enlightens themselves on how things really work these days & what a huge house of cards it all is :eyebrows:
Vinyleyes
26-11-2011, 18:05
Yep .. great link Mark ... more and more people are waking up to the fact that the banking system is not quite what it seems .. to say the least :lol:
There is much more info out there .. just google "banking" on You Tube ..
:cool:
Spectral Morn
26-11-2011, 18:30
Like I said, I have no fixed and hard views on this, and maybe, to some extent, I am playing 'agent provocateur' just to seek others' views. I am open to persuasion but regret to say very little has been posted so far.
The ex-pats who left this country, and took their assets with them, for a life they perceived to be better elsewhere did so for their own reasons. They were not persuaded by others or funded by tax payers to do so. I'll admit some of these decisions were influenced by health reasons but these health reasons are, presumably, still applicable, irrespective of the state of the Euro.
So I do not immediately see any reason why the poor souls who chose to remain, or had no choice but to remain, in the UK trying to keep it afloat against an adverse tide in the way the country evolves should be expected to fund their return.
As Granny used to say, "You make your bed and you have to lie in it".
Dave.
Dave unless a UK citizen seeks to swap to become another countries they still pay bloody taxes and contribute to the running of this country as many have homes in both countries; so therefore they deserve our support and that of our and their government.
Regards D S D L
It's a bit strange that those finance experts put their trust in a banking system that is so vulnerable to rumours, speculations and potential misuse of their system. Making both their own investments and management of their clients assets very exposed to high risk, yielding only short-term value that is not an advantage to the society as a whole.
tannoy man
27-11-2011, 14:52
Every Time the Stock Markets Crash its Working Man who pays for it.
Everyone who pays into a private Pension, it's they'r Money thats going
down down the Drain. Annuity payouts have dropped by 30% in the last
two years and will continue to do so, add in the fact that every Goverment
is Devaluing our Currency with Quantative easing and your Pension will be
worth next to nothing.
I know a Retired Car Mechanic in Zimbabwe who put lots of money into
his Pension, Do you know what he can afford to buy with his Pension now?
A DAILY PAPER and that's all.
It's a bit strange that those finance experts put their trust in a banking system .......... yielding only short-term value that is not an advantage to the society as a whole.
Whether you do so intentionally or not, IMHO you have put your finger on the problem - modern capitalism is focussed on short term gain and has absolutely no interest whatsoever in society as a whole - they're alright Jack and sod the rest.
Dave.
bobbasrah
28-11-2011, 09:20
Whether you do so intentionally or not, IMHO you have put your finger on the problem - modern capitalism is focussed on short term gain and has absolutely no interest whatsoever in society as a whole - they're alright Jack and sod the rest.
Dave.
+1
The notion that the euro is more vulnerable from unscrupulous but legal financial practices than would be the deutschemark or sterling on it's own is absurd. The fact that the euro survived it's conspired destruction by both Sterling and Dollar in the early days, is testament to it's potential strength, but now the financial circus is seeking to exploit the vulnerabilities of a system which has never been completed due to political reluctance.
The financial world thrive on turmoil and manipulation, and even though they are the creators of the current crisis, they are determined to benefit further from a potentially fragmented europe (it is already disunited). Business is business, local industry, governments, and populations are simply collateral damage.
I find it comical that society has willingly swallowed the mass production and distribution model, yet remains reluctant to do so in the political arena. Aside from the inevitability of a Federal State of Europe (resisted by ALL local politicians for reasons of perpetuating local power and status), the notion of british national identity and self-determination is frequently turned out as some form of idol which must be protected at all cost against remote and detached government. As a Scot, such perceptions are far from alien concepts or experience, therefore transition to a european model is not viewed with the same trepidation as those nearer the London hub.
The financial world was encouraged to grow on profit above all, with scant regard, consideration or legislative protection for the little guy, and it has now shaken the world economy to the detriment of....the little guy, be they greek, irish, or french. We and our politicians gave them the rope to hang us all.
You've got think the system is so incredibly stupid.
- country gets into debt
- finance institutions increase the interest rates
- country gets more into debt
- finance institutions increase the interest rates further
WTF do they think will happen next?
Sadly, the Euro in one form or another is here to stay. But one didn't have To be a rocket scientist to see that it would be a charlie fox event for the weaker economies.
How they didn't realise this I don't know. I can only presume they were lied to about the running of the European central bank.
Sadly, the Euro in one form or another is here to stay. But one didn't have To be a rocket scientist to see that it would be a charlie fox event for the weaker economies.
How they didn't realise this I don't know. I can only presume they were lied to about the running of the European central bank.
Based on private conversations I've had with friends in Greece and Spain and anecdotal evidence from the more 'eastern' countries, they all saw it as a gravy train, and so it has proved to be, IMHO. The problem was that they did not expect the day of reckoning to come so quick, like in their lifetime.
Dave.
Hi all,
Talk about broken records...
So the Eurozone farce slips backwards over the cliff. Twilight Zone, more like. As an expat living in Italy, I have a ringside seat at the non-existent fight for the euro's survival. While Rome burns, the political classes are on the fiddle. We currently have an unelected Monti ( not present at El Alamein ) whose spellbinding economic savvy has just conjured up a new tax on pedigree dog ownership as a means of identifying citizens clearly on a huge income but not paying enough tax. Bravo! Not exactly the kind of economic, social and political reform we're all crying out for then. Or that we're advocating in far flung foreign fields.
So why are we not asking the right questions? Why are our communities suffering from a crippling debt hangover with no cure?
Suffice to say, the cut-throat rivalry underpinning the free-market economy has resulted in dangerously destabilising risk-taking in the name of profit-making. The 'success' of speculative gambling by the financial sector and the spread of globalisation has fuelled prosperity for elites everywhere and the reduction of the man in the street to another useful gadget in an increasingly superfluous world of gimmickry where dubious design and poor reliability have trapped us in an increasingly unaffordable technological spiral - hifi is not immune to this, as most of us have experienced.
Sadly, in our times we don't have to look far to find spectacular examples of greed, decadence and croneyism at the highest levels of business and government. Was it ever thus? Surely, but that's no excuse to bury our heads in the sand and continue to buy wholesale into the fictions of 'capitalism' and 'democracy' - these are not systems but guidelines and are singularly failing to evolve with the times. Trouble is, who's the Brussels turkey who's going to vote for Christmas? Can we really rely on people whose main priority is to successfully run for - and stay in - plush, well-paid offices? If reform doesn't come, then protest must.
Whatever would a great thinker like Marx have made of it all - Karl or Groucho, take your pick.
Stop the world, I want to get off.
worthingpagan
30-11-2011, 10:15
Hi all,
Talk about broken records...
So the Eurozone farce slips backwards over the cliff. Twilight Zone, more like. As an expat living in Italy, I have a ringside seat at the non-existent fight for the euro's survival. While Rome burns, the political classes are on the fiddle. We currently have an unelected Monti ( not present at El Alamein ) whose spellbinding economic savvy has just conjured up a new tax on pedigree dog ownership as a means of identifying citizens clearly on a huge income but not paying enough tax. Bravo! Not exactly the kind of economic, social and political reform we're all crying out for then. Or that we're advocating in far flung foreign fields.
So why are we not asking the right questions? Why are our communities suffering from a crippling debt hangover with no cure?
Suffice to say, the cut-throat rivalry underpinning the free-market economy has resulted in dangerously destabilising risk-taking in the name of profit-making. The 'success' of speculative gambling by the financial sector and the spread of globalisation has fuelled prosperity for elites everywhere and the reduction of the man in the street to another useful gadget in an increasingly superfluous world of gimmickry where dubious design and poor reliability have trapped us in an increasingly unaffordable technological spiral - hifi is not immune to this, as most of us have experienced.
Sadly, in our times we don't have to look far to find spectacular examples of greed, decadence and croneyism at the highest levels of business and government. Was it ever thus? Surely, but that's no excuse to bury our heads in the sand and continue to buy wholesale into the fictions of 'capitalism' and 'democracy' - these are not systems but guidelines and are singularly failing to evolve with the times. Trouble is, who's the Brussels turkey who's going to vote for Christmas? Can we really rely on people whose main priority is to successfully run for - and stay in - plush, well-paid offices? If reform doesn't come, then protest must.
Whatever would a great thinker like Marx have made of it all - Karl or Groucho, take your pick.
Stop the world, I want to get off.
Excellent post :cool:
Based on private conversations I've had with friends in Greece and Spain and anecdotal evidence from the more 'eastern' countries, they all saw it as a gravy train, and so it has proved to be, IMHO. The problem was that they did not expect the day of reckoning to come so quick, like in their lifetime.
Dave.
Unfortunately most of the countries having the problems now lied about there current financial state when joining to get "on the gravy train" and now the reckoning has arrived.
Nick
Unfortunately most of the countries having the problems now lied about there current financial state when joining to get "on the gravy train" and now the reckoning has arrived.
Nick
We could include Ireland in that list - though, gate-crashing the EU not being an option, all member countries presumably met the criteria for entry. Italy was one of the founding members despite being counted amongst the poetically-named PIGS - Portugal, Ireland-Italy, Greece, Spain, or countries at risk of default.
So were those criteria defined with some sort of United States of Europe in mind, therefore requiring an easing of the standards for would-be new members in order for the club to grow? Possibly. Despite their being wastrel states? Just take a look at what's happening now. Rather than getting rid of the euro, I'm sure there are a lot of secretive conversations down long, dark corridors about the possibility of a two-speed eurozone.
The UK, with its superb infrastructure and high asset value, has always been fairly antagonistic to the eurozone because it could afford to be. But we're living in times of unprecedented transformation which goes beyond national borders - pollution, global warming, population growth, economic meltdown and social ungovernability are pretty much everywhere. The result is that dehumanisation are more rampant now than ever before. In the absence of a coherent institutional response the horizon is looking very gloomy. Democracy is nothing without economic/retail democracy - and I'm sure people in the UK have to run just as fast as people in Italy to pay their bills. And we do - but where's the common fiscal policy that would help it all work? Where are the Eurobonds which meant the Germans were putting their money where their mouth is? Why on earth is our economic attitude based solely on usurous rates of interest? A similar situation of pulverising inequality resulting from the wealth created by the Empire occurred in Britain in the 1850's - from where we benefited from the work of the great Victorian social reformers later on. I'm struggling nowadays to identify a public figure with a minimal sense of social conscience beyond the doublespeak - let alone another John Ruskin.
Oh dear, this is starting to sound like 'the good ol' days'.
But it's the future we need to define. By which I mean the communities in which we live, not the drooling half-truths of an expense-accounted MP and this week's vote manure manifesto.
If anyone knows of a safe haven from it all, let me know. Preferably a place with an advanced sense of rhythm.
bobbasrah
30-11-2011, 13:45
Unfortunately most of the countries having the problems now lied about there current financial state when joining to get "on the gravy train" and now the reckoning has arrived.
Nick
ALL countries lie about their financial state, as governments are composed of politicians, who are pre-disposed to that mechanism, generally to their own advantage. The Greek government and finance system are no different.
All of us are suffering from the crisis directly or indirectly, but those with poor governance are certainly under greater direct stress, and it is the population who will ultimately pay for it.
This is not about covering loss, but increasing profit, justified by potential risk.
The irony of it all....Is that not how we got into this situation in the first place ? :steam:
Just look at the value ( on the currency markets) of the Euro. It's still one of the highest value rock-solid currencies. Is it going to disappear? I think not.
Are the weaker European countries going to take it up the arse for years to come? Why certainly.
bobbasrah
02-12-2011, 15:59
Just look at the value ( on the currency markets) of the Euro. It's still one of the highest value rock-solid currencies. Is it going to disappear? I think not.
Are the weaker European countries going to take it up the arse for years to come? Why certainly.
Well that explains Berlusconni's agreement to resign....
Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 18:51
Watch it all go to pot now :eyebrows: Hollande is the new French president, he's a spend & tax man & you can just about bet he'll derail this Euro austerity thing...
Get ready for the markets to go mad on Monday (Tuesday here as bank holiday) :rolleyes:
Personally I can't wait. Anything that has the potential to destroy the Eurozone is okay in my book. It's all been a big farce from the beginning ;)
But sadly that will not be the end of the 'black hole' for our hard earned taxes - it will take them years to wind down the gross and grotesque administation of the organisation and they'll spend months awarding themselves excessively lucrative lifelong pensions and other perks on the grounds of early termination of contracts. We're stuck with the costs and consequences of this debacle forced on us by politicians for the benefit of politicians for years and years to come.
ursus262
06-05-2012, 21:22
Personally I can't wait. Anything that has the potential to destroy the Eurozone is okay in my book. It's all been a big farce from the beginning ;)
Absolutely. I'm pleased that Hollande has won, and it looks like Greece is going the same way. What we really need now here are politicians with the sort of guts and courage as shown by the president of Argentina, who nationalised an oil company, without compensation, because it would not act in their national interest.
Bring back socialism, tax the rich, and renationalise key industries is the key to returning to a fairer society.
Bring back socialism, tax the rich, and renationalise key industries is the key to returning to a fairer society.
Why can we not just accept that life is not fair, that some people are going to have it easy and some are not, and just move on from there? It would save a lot of aggravation;)
That aside I think that Greece is the major factor in this and if they go for default the key log comes out of the dam. We will see...
Absolutely. I'm pleased that Hollande has won, and it looks like Greece is going the same way. What we really need now here are politicians with the sort of guts and courage as shown by the president of Argentina, who nationalised an oil company, without compensation, because it would not act in their national interest.
Bring back socialism, tax the rich, and renationalise key industries is the key to returning to a fairer society.
I would not disagree with you but, regarding the PM of Argentina, I'm pepared to bet a £ to a pinch of sh1t she doesn't get re-elected for a second term - big business will see to that.
Also, IMHO she didn't do herself any favours by permitting their athletes to warm up on the steps of our war memorial in the Falklands :steam: :mental: .
Dave.
IMHO she didn't do herself any favours by permitting their athletes to warm up on the steps of our war memorial in the Falklands :steam: :mental:
Dave.
In a perverse way it is the best thing Kirshner could have done. She is now being lambasted by just about every Western leader which isn't doing our cause any harm at all :D
In a perverse way it is the best thing Kirshner could have done. She is now being lambasted by just about every Western leader which isn't doing our cause any harm at all :D
That is exactly what I meant - hopefully another nail or few into her political coffin.
Dave.
northwest
07-05-2012, 09:25
Bring back socialism, tax the rich, and renationalise key industries is the key to returning to a fairer society.
<GROAN>
It's this sort of short sighted theft that killed the UK car industry. I wouls agree that service institutions should be nationalised, water, electricity gas and so on as they are an essential ifrastructure. We should also understand that vital services, Fire, Ambulance, Hospital services are just that, services that cost us money as citizens. The profitable services are a good revenue stream for everyone.
As the rich are just that they will soon leave when taxation becomes unpalatable. I am astonished that someone on a music forum so quickly forgets that during the 60's and 70's so many of our artists left the country, taking their revenue with them, because of high taxation. In Las Vegas for instance, there is zero income tax, the state of Arizona doesn't seem to be less poor than other American States? But as it is really relatively simple to become a resident of Las Vegas why doon't all Americans?
Well this is my experience; In America your best friend will report you to the authorities if he suspects you of fiddling your taxes and not paying your share. Because not paying your taxes is unpatriotic!
In the UK in any pub and club up and down the countryside you will find someone, more than one, telling you how to fiddle your taxes. Because tax evasion is a national pastime!
If you think socialism is the answer, get yourself off to Cuba and ask the citizens there, or more accessible - go to Nicaragua and ask anyone there over the age of fifty five ish what they think.
Idealism is a noble aim, I am more pragmatic.
<GROAN>
. In Las Vegas for instance, there is zero income tax, the state of Arizona doesn't seem to be less poor than other American States?.
Nevada, dude - Nevada. But other wise I agree 100%. it's the idealists who are the bloody problem :lol:
Stratmangler
07-05-2012, 10:29
Bring back socialism, tax the rich, and renationalise key industries is the key to returning to a fairer society.
Since when have we had a fair society?
northwest
07-05-2012, 10:55
Nevada, dude - Nevada. But other wise I agree 100%. it's the idealists who are the bloody problem :lol:
Alright Alright already! Had the relatives 'round for dinner yesterday and just finished the last load in the dishwasher - you know how it is.
But in my defence it is bloody hot in both states!
ursus262
07-05-2012, 11:02
<GROAN>
It's this sort of short sighted theft that killed the UK car industry. I wouls agree that service institutions should be nationalised, water, electricity gas and so on as they are an essential ifrastructure. We should also understand that vital services, Fire, Ambulance, Hospital services are just that, services that cost us money as citizens. The profitable services are a good revenue stream for everyone.
As the rich are just that they will soon leave when taxation becomes unpalatable. I am astonished that someone on a music forum so quickly forgets that during the 60's and 70's so many of our artists left the country, taking their revenue with them, because of high taxation. In Las Vegas for instance, there is zero income tax, the state of Arizona doesn't seem to be less poor than other American States? But as it is really relatively simple to become a resident of Las Vegas why doon't all Americans?
Well this is my experience; In America your best friend will report you to the authorities if he suspects you of fiddling your taxes and not paying your share. Because not paying your taxes is unpatriotic!
In the UK in any pub and club up and down the countryside you will find someone, more than one, telling you how to fiddle your taxes. Because tax evasion is a national pastime!
If you think socialism is the answer, get yourself off to Cuba and ask the citizens there, or more accessible - go to Nicaragua and ask anyone there over the age of fifty five ish what they think.
Idealism is a noble aim, I am more pragmatic.
Groan!
northwest
07-05-2012, 11:19
Groan!
About right. Comment without substance, even if I disagree with your point of view it's nice to actually have a point to be able to disagree with. Any troll can come up with disposable one liners.
Well, off to the "shed" now to have a bit of a tidy up so argue amongst yourself for a while.
ursus262
07-05-2012, 11:33
About right. Comment without substance, even if I disagree with your point of view it's nice to actually have a point to be able to disagree with. Any troll can come up with disposable one liners.
Well, off to the "shed" now to have a bit of a tidy up so argue amongst yourself for a while.
I am not a troll, so you can fuck off and keep your stupid comments to yourself.
I am not a troll, so you can fuck off and keep your stupid comments to yourself.
Just a shot in the dark here but I am guessing that you did not win your school's Debating Prize?
Stratmangler
07-05-2012, 11:43
I am not a troll, so you can fuck off and keep your stupid comments to yourself.
Whoa there keyboard warrior.
It's only words on screen, so don't read things into what gets posted, and don't take things personally.
I didn't read any condescension into Northwest's comment, and took it at face value.
I think you should too.
It never ceases to amaze and amuse me as to how many people fail to use the written word adequately to put a point across - one of the great failings of the education system of our fairer society ;)
Stratmangler
07-05-2012, 11:44
Just a shot in the dark here but I am guessing that you did not win your school's Debating Prize?
:rfl:
ursus262
07-05-2012, 11:50
I did read condescension in his comments, and I took offence at them. Hence the response.
Okay, glad that's all cleared up.
Back on topic here is an article from today's Torygraph speculating on the possible consequences of the French elections:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100016940/good-news-for-london-property-prices-hollande-has-won/
Agood time to purchase a French Delecitessan in West London perhaps?
StanleyB
07-05-2012, 13:01
Maybe a good time to buy a better newspaper? Vince Cable was right after all on Murdoch. The Telegraph tried to let us believe otherwise.
ursus262
07-05-2012, 13:41
Maybe a good time to buy a better newspaper? Vince Cable was right after all on Murdoch. The Telegraph tried to let us believe otherwise.
It seems we never learned about protecting our democracy from vested interests. In the 1970s the Unions became too powerful, undermining democratically elected governments. Now, a generation later, we have the same problem with Murdoch.
At the root of all of this is party political funding. Funding of political parties by groups other than the taxpayer corrupts the entire political process.
Maybe a good time to buy a better newspaper? Vince Cable was right after all on Murdoch. The Telegraph tried to let us believe otherwise.
:lol: there are no good newspapers anymore, Stan. I am just shilling for the Torygraph as I have a relative who works there :eyebrows:... Anyway - everyone knows Murdoch for what he is, it was hardly very perceptive of Cable. His boasting about going after him and News International was, I thought, naieve and immature even if he did think he was talking privately.
It seems we never learned about protecting our democracy from vested interests. In the 1970s the Unions became too powerful, undermining democratically elected governments. Now, a generation later, we have the same problem with Murdoch.
At the root of all of this is party political funding. Funding of political parties by groups other than the taxpayer corrupts the entire political process.
Not just Murdoch, but a lot, maybe all of the major corporations and certianly all of the financial ones.
And as a taxpayer why should I pay for any political organisation? Let the members fund it themselvesif they are so keen on keeping it going. There is enough of our money being stolen from us as it is. The cosying up to Murdoch was more to do with getting good press in the Sun than getting money out of him, anyway.
Cameron and his cronies are going down, it's almost inevitable now. His back bencher's want him to set aside the Lib Dem's policies to concentrate on the blue agenda. He will have to choose which of the two groups he wants to piss off, either way the coalition is toast... :D
Cameron and his cronies are going down, it's almost inevitable now. His back bencher's want him to set aside the Lib Dem's policies to concentrate on the blue agenda. He will have to choose which of the two groups he wants to piss off, either way the coalition is toast... :D
And in a less corrupt system composed of people with some principles you'd be right but turkeys do not vote for Christmas, this is just a lot of hot air from the Tory 'right' it will soon blow over. All of them, Lib dems included have another 3 years at the trough yet. I don't think they will give that up if you put a gun to their heads.
It might still happen Martin. Even if it doesn't it will be fun watching him squirm whilst trying to sort it out. Rebecca Brooks may yet have a silver bullet with his name on it in the coming weeks anyway ;)
That would be interesting. I have no sympathy for him, he thought he could appeal to a broad spectrum and instead has managed to become unappealing to the entire spectrum. Quite an acheivement.
To get a little nearer to the title of this thread (Euroland's demise rather than Davy boy's) am I right in thinking that one of the reasons why Greece is in it's current state is that it has become a way of life there to avoid paying your taxes, easier organised by the wealthy, leaving only those in the middle who have no choice to pick up the whole tab?
And isn't this exactly the sort of scenario that Davy and Georgy are effectively creating here?
To get a little nearer to the title of this thread (Euroland's demise rather than Davy boy's) am I right in thinking that one of the reasons why Greece is in it's current state is that it has become a way of life there to avoid paying your taxes, easier organised by the wealthy, leaving only those in the middle who have no choice to pick up the whole tab?
And isn't this exactly the sort of scenario that Davy and Georgy are effectively creating here?
Well personal income tax accounts for less than a fifth of government revenue in this country, I suspect even less in Greece. We have always had a situation in this country in which 'the middle' paid for everything. The problem with soaking rich individuals is that they have the means to go somewhere else at the drop of a hat so you end up with nothing rather than something. The best way to raise taxes is to have lots of succesful businesses in your country, all paying corporation tax. It's not rocket science.
There are lots of reasons why the Greek economy tanked, the two main ones were joining the Euro which made their exports more expensive and drove up costs at home. Holidays in Greece got a lot more expensive so tourism which was one of their main sources of foreign income slumped. The other was spending borrowed money on 'social reform' on which they cannot afford to pay back even the interest.
To get a little nearer to the title of this thread (Euroland's demise rather than Davy boy's) am I right in thinking that one of the reasons why Greece is in it's current state is that it has become a way of life there to avoid paying your taxes, easier organised by the wealthy, leaving only those in the middle who have no choice to pick up the whole tab?
And isn't this exactly the sort of scenario that Davy and Georgy are effectively creating here?
As far as Greece is concerned, I could not have phrased it any better. The middle and working classes are at the point of exhaustion, our past governments have been far too lenient to the upper classes and too lax in collecting debts/curbing tax evasion. People in Greece are fed up. Hence yesterday's election results.
Well personal income tax accounts for less than a fifth of government revenue in this country, I suspect even less in Greece. We have always had a situation in this country in which 'the middle' paid for everything. The problem with soaking rich individuals is that they have the means to go somewhere else at the drop of a hat so you end up with nothing rather than something. The best way to raise taxes is to have lots of succesful businesses in your country, all paying corporation tax. It's not rocket science.
There are lots of reasons why the Greek economy tanked, the two main ones were joining the Euro which made their exports more expensive and drove up costs at home. Holidays in Greece got a lot more expensive so tourism which was one of their main sources of foreign income slumped. The other was spending borrowed money on 'social reform' on which they cannot afford to pay back even the interest.
Missed this one in-between and yep, IMO right on the money on all counts.
Beechwoods
07-05-2012, 14:53
Mod hat on.
Can members please keep it civil, even if you can't agree to disagree. Telling other members to 'eff off is not how we do it here, as I'm sure most of you know by now. Keep it civil or this thread will be locked until things calm down :steam:
Well personal income tax accounts for less than a fifth of government revenue in this country,
I wonder how much it would (and should) account for if everyone paid their dues? Looking at things your way becomes a self fulfilling statement, encouraging others to pay less than their dues because a) loads of others are doing the same, and b) it forms an ever decreasing fraction of the government revenue.
The problem with soaking rich individuals is that they have the means to go somewhere else at the drop of a hat so you end up with nothing rather than something. The best way to raise taxes is to have lots of succesful businesses in your country, all paying corporation tax. It's not rocket science. You've certainly swallowed the Establishment line on that haven't you. It's main purpose is to frighten people away from demanding that the rich should not be allowed to drive a cart and horses through the tax laws IMHO but no evidence is ever put forward to justify it.
The other (reason) was spending borrowed money on 'social reform' on which they cannot afford to pay back even the interest.
Yes but the people who lent them the money knew exactly what the true situation was (or if they didn't, they should not have been in their job) and the people who 'borrowed' (read 'stole' because they must have known at the time that it would/could never be paid back but it gave them access to mountains of funds which could never later be fully accounted for) the money certainly knew what the true situation was but the evidence suggests that they were only interested in doing the best for themselves rather than for their countrymen who gave them the power to do so
Don't you just love politicians? - they all seem to know what's best for their electorate but the only people to benefit from their application of that knowledge are them and their friends (read 'financial supporters') and I include all the main political parties in that description.
You've certainly swallowed the Establishment line on that haven't you. It's main purpose is to frighten people away from demanding that the rich should not be allowed to drive a cart and horses through the tax laws IMHO but no evidence is ever put forward to justify it.
.
No I havn't swallowed 'the establishments' line or any other. I may cast out a few of my own from time to time however :eyebrows:. I just don't understand this obsession with trying to squeeze what is, in terms of total government spending, a tiny amount of extra money from a couple of thousand super-rich people (the reality is that there just ain't that many of them). So they are, quite legally at present, avoiding paying some taxes. How much is at issue - a few hundred million quid at best. Even if you did collect it then it would be squandered on some crackpot scheme within seconds and with absolutely no result because that is what government does best when it takes our money from us.
I am not rich, not even close. Do I care that some people are fantastically rich, does it bother me, does it make me jealous, does it affect my life in any way? No.
Ido have friends and aquaintences who are wealthy; interestingly they are socialists to a man. One earns more in a month than I do in a year and he is a committed Trotskyite. Naurally they are quite happy to advocate 'wealth redistribution' they never seem to consider that it is their wealth that will get re-distributed. Actually I'd almost go along with it just to see the look on their faces when it happened:)
Guys,
We're watching this thread closely. Please be careful not to turn it into an intolerant debate about your political leanings and values, as that usually only ends in tears - indeed it something that we do not permit here on AoS.
The discussion got rather ugly earlier, and if I see any more that bullshite, the thread will simply be zapped. I trust that I've made myself clear!
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
07-05-2012, 17:01
Indeed, political and religious discussions often end up in tears!
Reid Malenfant
07-05-2012, 17:02
Yes, stop upsetting me :ner: I only brought it back up because I could see the inevitable now Hollande is in power :scratch:
Lets be nice to each other & sing kumbaya :D
zygote23
07-05-2012, 17:12
No I havn't swallowed 'the establishments' line or any other. I may cast out a few of my own from time to time however :eyebrows:. I just don't understand this obsession with trying to squeeze what is, in terms of total government spending, a tiny amount of extra money from a couple of thousand super-rich people (the reality is that there just ain't that many of them). So they are, quite legally at present, avoiding paying some taxes. How much is at issue - a few hundred million quid at best. Even if you did collect it then it would be squandered on some crackpot scheme within seconds and with absolutely no result because that is what government does best when it takes our money from us.
I am not rich, not even close. Do I care that some people are fantastically rich, does it bother me, does it make me jealous, does it affect my life in any way? No.
Ido have friends and aquaintences who are wealthy; interestingly they are socialists to a man. One earns more in a month than I do in a year and he is a committed Trotskyite. Naurally they are quite happy to advocate 'wealth redistribution' they never seem to consider that it is their wealth that will get re-distributed. Actually I'd almost go along with it just to see the look on their faces when it happened:)
Interesting post Macca...as was this wee bit in the Grauniad (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/02/scourge-wealth-divide)
'The annual Sunday Times Rich List yields four very important conclusions for the governance of Britain (Report, Weekend, 28 April). It shows that the richest 1,000 persons, just 0.003% of the adult population, increased their wealth over the last three years by £155bn. That is enough for themselves alone to pay off the entire current UK budget deficit and still leave them with £30bn to spare.
Second, this mega-rich elite, containing many of the bankers and hedge fund and private equity operators who caused the financial crash in the first place, have not been made subject to any tax payback whatever commensurate to their gains. Some 77% of the budget deficit is being recouped by public expenditure cuts and benefit cuts, and only 23% is being repaid by tax increases. More than half of the tax increases is accounted for by the VAT rise which hits the poorest hardest. None of the tax increases is specifically aimed at the super-rich.
Third, despite the biggest slump for nearly a century, these 1,000 richest are now sitting on wealth greater even than at the height of the boom just before the crash. Their wealth now amounts to £414bn, equivalent to more than a third of Britain's entire GDP. They include 77 billionaires and 23 others, each possessing more than £750m.
The increase in wealth of this richest 1,000 has been £315bn over the last 15 years. If they were charged capital gains tax on this at the current 28% rate, it would yield £88bn, enough to pay off 70% of the entire deficit. It seems however that Osborne takes the notorious view of the New York heiress, Leonora Helmsley: "Only the little people pay taxes."
Michael Meacher MP'
I've no problem with anyone's earnings at all and am reasonably content with my own meagre amount. I do however take exception to losing a shite load of Tax every month only to see it pay off something ridiculous!
So they are, quite legally at present, avoiding paying some taxes. How much is at issue - a few hundred million quid at best. Even if you did collect it then it would be squandered on some crackpot scheme within seconds and with absolutely no result because that is what government does best when it takes our money from us.
A nice way of looking at things if I may say so - so why don't we extend the same logic to those who can't really afford to pay it but sadly have no choice instead of turning a blind eye to those who can afford to pay but find ways of not doing so. Either it's right for us all to pay our dues or it's right for none of us to do so - sauce for the goose etc. - after all our politicians keep telling us we're all in this together - yeah, right :rolleyes: .
@ Marco: - I suspect I may not have seen all posts on this subject but the ones I have seen show no signs of it getting ugly. IMV it seems to be a friendly and civilised exchange of views and that is how I expect it to continue (certainly from my side), if indeed it does continue. But, as usual, your forum, your rules, and I have no problems with you exercising your discretion.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
@ Marco: - I suspect I may not have seen all posts on this subject but the ones I have seen show no signs of it getting ugly. IMV it seems to be a friendly and civilised exchange of views and that is how I expect it to continue (certainly from my side), if indeed it does continue. But, as usual, your forum, your rules, and I have no problems with you exercising your discretion.
Earlier, on page 5...
About right. Comment without substance, even if I disagree with your point of view it's nice to actually have a point to be able to disagree with. Any troll can come up with disposable one liners.
Well, off to the "shed" now to have a bit of a tidy up so argue amongst yourself for a while.
I am not a troll, so you can fuck off and keep your stupid comments to yourself.
I wouldn't be posting warnings, if it weren't necesssary! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
07-05-2012, 17:44
And we are not even in the Euro :mental:.
Hi Dave,
I wouldn't be posting warnings, if it weren't necesssary! ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Oooh err, naughty - I came to the thread late and missed that.
Hi Stan,
Quite true but sadly we are not immune from whatever might happen over there - would that it were so.
Dave.
Hi Marco,
Oooh err, naughty...
Indeed, and I would appreciate it if the guilty parties apologised for their respective outbursts. That is NOT how we expect our members here to behave!
Marco.
northwest
07-05-2012, 19:23
I think that, more than anything else no matter what your views are, the real gripe that most people have is the total lack of transparency of many, many institutions and public bodies. For too long now, many people who are in positions of trust and authority have abused their positions of trust.
Quite recently I sat down to dinner with a few friends and my colleague said: "so how's it going Richard?" Well, said he:"your politicians are fiddling their taxes, the police are taking bribes, the press are hacking private telephone conversations and I am telling these boys to behave themselves!" (Mr Richard Taylor, Damiola Taylor's father).
So the issues are social and economic AND not just confined to these shores. Expensive solutions too, but are we getting value for money?
I don't believe we are, nor do I (much as it pains me to say it) think the gruesome twosome are up to it. I have a brother in law like these two - would call out the AA if he had a puncture, I get the distinct impression these two would never have changed a tyre in their lives. This does not of course preclude them from public office but it is how they view us mere mortals down here from their position up there. And then subsequently approve social reform policies!
I don't believe anyone here is really advocating tax evasion, but I do believe there are many of us asking what it is exactly we are getting for our money and the answer from where I am sitting is, frankly, not a lot!
There are fiscal policies which make me cringe and I am not restricting this to just one party, Mr Ed Milliband is just not to be trusted. Sadly David, his brother, was stabbed in the back by his own party - having met them both, more than once- I know who I would prefer even if he is unlikely to get my vote.
The real problem though lies with the British Public and he downright despicable mechanations of the British Press. Anything for titillation, feigned outrage or a bit of Blame Storming. Not much in the way of truth. When most people's ambition is to become a footballer, marry a footballer, win the lottery or Britains got Talent - Huston, we have a problem.
The problem then becomes compounded when the bitter pills we all have to swallow are rejected because absolutely NoOBODY is prepared to take responsibility for their actions, it is someone else's fault so they should pay. Whoever they may be!
I will be extremely interested to see how the next few weeks pan out in Europe, it is going to be a little sad though watching other countries in real difficulty as a graphic example as to how not to do it. I am no longer really interested in listening to all of the convoluted fiscal arguments. At the end of the day it is basic bookkeeping and right now, the books don't balance!
Will you apologise for your outburst, Graham, if Dave does the same?
Given what I've just said, it would've been nice if you'd acknowledged that, before continuing as if nothing had happened.
Marco.
northwest
07-05-2012, 19:41
Will you apologise for your outburst, Graham, if Dave does the same?
Given what I've just said, it would've been nice if you'd acknowledged that, before continuing as if nothing had happened.
Marco.
Sorry Marco, I give you my unreserved apology.
Further, and for the recor, as I xplained in my note I am accessing the forum - as you can see from the admin panel - using an iPod touvch.
Not for the faint hearted and my typing finger is now numb!
No problem, Graham. I appreciate that. Please see my PM :)
Dave, I would now like a similar apology from you.
Marco.
ursus262
07-05-2012, 21:05
No problem, Graeme. I appreciate that. Please see my PM :)
Dave, I would now like a similar apology from you.
Marco.
No I will not. I will not back down, and if people don't treat me with respect, they can expect that kind of treatment. I will not discuss this matter any further.
How charming and considerate!
Ok, well consider yourself on a week's ban. You'll learn then that telling people to "fuck off" is not tolerated here, and when I ask you to do something, it's not up for debate!
Marco.
"Bang, bang, Marco's silver hammer came down upon his head..." :eyebrows:
What a silly billy... :confused:
For reference, I think the PM I've just received from Dave, deserves to be viewed, just so folks know what kind of character we're dealing with:
You dont quite get it do you? Your fucking forum is really of little importance to me, and banning me really makes no difference.
You are a pathetic, self important little man who patronises and talks down to everyone on this site. You are crude, disrespectful, arrogant, and generally quite unpleasant.
I for my part really don't care about you or this forum, to be honest. there are countless other things I can do with my time.
Classy, eh? It's shows what he was really about. The ban is now moved to a permanent one.
Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. We don't need people like that here.
Marco.
Oh well, that was quite unpleasant. I think someone needs to take a chill pill...
I guess that means you and Dave will be calling off the engagement then Marco... :D
Graham's unreserved apology shows that he's a bigger man than Dave will ever be; indeed Dave's outburst was akin to that of a petulant teenager, and equally pathetic.
We simply don't tolerate anyone here giving out that kind of abuse. However, as Dave no longer has a right of reply, I must ask that he is no longer mentioned and that we now get the thread back on topic, and the mood altered to something more convivial.
Cheers!
Marco.
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