View Full Version : Sound Supports (tonearm plates and boards)
Hi guys,
Has anyone had any dealings with these guys recently or knows if they're experiencing difficulties (or perhaps on holiday?) I've tried numerous times over the last few days to contact them to discuss possibly having a bespoke armplate made for the Techy and my new Ortofon tonearm, but have received no response....
If anyone can provide any info, give them a gentle nudge, or supply a contact telephone number, it would be much appreciated - ta! :cool:
Marco.
It seems like the main man Shaun also has another mail address here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19544&start=45&sid=342301cbe31b857c4e97bbc264834d0b
Hi Jostein,
I've just received a reply now from Shaun, so all is well. Thanks, though, for the info :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
21-11-2011, 20:19
I will probably try him for one for My Graham Phantom arm too. I am curious to try it on the Technics 1200
Regards D S D L
Dingdong
21-11-2011, 20:45
According to the label on the package I got the other day he's based in Royston, Herts. Never had a number for him, but he usually answers his emails the same evening.
Product is good, service, well you have seen!
Below is the email exchange I had with Shaun from Sounds Supports, beginning with me filling in their website contact form on 21/11/11, requesting a bespoke armboard making for my new Ortofon arm on my Technics SL-1210.
You will see that things started off ok, but when Shaun realised that he wasn't able to use the armboard he had in stock that he thought would work, as the geometry was unsuitable, things started to get a little 'flaky', culminating in him announcing, to my amazement, that I'd have to wait "at least a month" for the armboard I had requested to be made, because he had to get something sent from Italy!!
I was under the impression that he made everything himself, in-house, and so had expected the armboard to be made rather sooner than "at least a month"!
Why on earth didn't he tell me that there would be such a delay, when he obviously knew that would be the case when he couldn't use the armboard he had in stock, instead of telling me at the last minute and wasting my time and his in the process?? :doh: :doh:
And now, he doesn't want to know and is ignoring my emails, as you can see from the end of our email exchange.
Anyway, please read the following email exchange backwards, in order to see what happened:
Hi Shaun,
Did you get the email below I sent you earlier? If so, I would appreciate your response.
Cheers.
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Shaun,
Just to let you know that, following your email yesterday, advising me that it could be at least a month before I have the armboard (something in all honesty you should've told me as soon as you knew that the one you had in stock wasn't going to be suitable), I have arranged for one of the woodworkers on AoS to make one out of wood, from a solid piece of ebony.
Should this for any reason not be successful, I will be in touch again and proceed with the order for the armboard in question, and wait the necessary amount of time for it to arrive. Normally the waiting time wouldn't have been a problem, but I'm taking my turntable to be demonstrated at a forum get together this Saturday, and of course I would like it performing at its best, and I simply presumed that you'd be able to make it in a couple of days.
Out of curiosity, what part does Italy play in the process? I would've thought that you would've kept sufficient stock of materials in order to make bespoke items for customers there and then, pending of course your existing work commitments, or are you farming the work out to a third party? If I'm to recommend your services on the forum, I could do with knowing how your business operates....
Anyway, thanks for your help thus far. If necessary, I'll be in touch.
Hi Shaun,
Jeez, I had no idea about that. What's Italy got to do with it? I was expecting it in a couple of days! I've got a tonearm I can't use properly at the moment. You should've let me know about such a lengthy delay LONG before now, Shaun. Very disappointed.....
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Before we proceed I better let you know that it could be at least a month before you take delivery of your Armboard, this is due to our workload and the postal service from the UK to Italy is notoriously slow.
Hope this will be ok for you?
Regards
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Note a problem, mate. When you send the CAD drawing, let me know how much I owe you, and I'll Paypal the amount to you immediately - cheers!
Any idea when the armboard will be ready?
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I will send you a CAD drawing for your approval before manufacture and then it's payment up front I’m afraid.
Regards
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Ah, yes you're right! Anyway, let me know when it's ready and how much I owe you (also what your Paypal address is for payment). If you could do it as soon as you can, that would be much appreciated, as my dealer, whom I bought the tonearm from, will be fitting it.
Best,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
They would mean the pitch circle diameter (pcd) of the 3 holes.
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Just another quick thought... I think you mentioned yesterday that the fixing holes PCD should have a diameter of 4mm.
However on the Ortofon site (if you check http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143&Itemid=146), it says 50mm, which I presume they mean as being 5mm, as of course 50mm would be ridiculous!
Anyway, I just thought I should point that out. Let me know how you get on
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
It will not be until tonight as I work 10 hours a day for another engineering company.
Regards
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Let me know how you get on with today with CAD - cheers, mate!
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Yes got it. Got the info for the arm from the. Vinyl engine tonearm database and this is obviously wrong. The mounting template is no use to me as I don't have a deck here. It is not a problem for me to work out the position of the hole as I can do it on CAD. I will look into this matter tomorrow as it is late now.
Shaun.
Hi Shaun,
Did you get the email below I sent earlier? Please confirm.
If necessary, I can send you the supplied plastic mounting template and "Armbase Pattern Sheet", which came in the box with the tonearm, from Ortofon, and you can work out for yourself whether the mounting distance is 212 or 216mm.
Obviously this is a very crucial measurement, and so it must be right.
Please respond ASAP to this email - cheers, mate!
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Shaun,
It says 216mm mounting distance here, on the Ortofon website:
http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143&Itemid=146
And a 34-36mm mounting hole....
I need it to be absolutely spot on, mate, so if you need to make another armboard to suit those dimensions, then I'll let you do that.
Let me know.
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Yes it is – 212 mounting distance, 40 MM mounting hole and pcd of 3 holes @4mm diameter.
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
No problem. I'll arrange for someone else to do that. Just one final thing, could you confirm that the armboard you have is definitely for the Ortofon RS-212D tonearm?
I just want to make sure before I order it.
Cheers!
Regards,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
It is for the 1210.
Sorry we don’t have the facility to spray paint.
You can send the payment via this email address.
Best regards
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Can you confirm that it is for a Technics SL-1210? If so, what is your Paypal address, so I can make payment?
Oh, and could you spray the armboard black, in order to match the colour of my turntable? I would prefer this, if possible.
Cheers!
Best,
Marco.
Hi Marco,
We have mad an Armboard to suit this arm before and have one in stock. I is a single layer board and is low enough to allow plenty of VT adjustment. If you are interested in this Armboard the cost will be £34.00 inc shipping.
We would love to advertise on your site, many thanks for the offer.
Best regards
Shaun
An armboard is a piece of aluminium cut out using various methods, I should know as I visit machine shops daily, its basically an inside diameter, an outside diameter and a thickness with some holes in, piss easy to do if you know the right people. Quickly too!
Quite right, David... So what on earth do you think was his problem, then?? :rolleyes:
One thing I can't stand is being rudely ignored, when I have been perfectly reasonable, so he can have his share of well-earned bad publicity!!! ;)
Marco.
Quite a few of the smaller websites are manned by people with day jobs who cannot answer their e-mails or phone calls whilst at work, I have found plenty of times when another small dealer asks me for something they never answer back until after 6pm!
I work from home so answer the phone straight away and e-mails within the hour! Of course gmail sometimes let's me down and e-bays spam filters are terrible at blocking messages to my customers!
I answer 24/7 as well for USA customers who e-mail in the middle of the night!
Wakefield Turntables
23-11-2011, 21:31
I remember when I had the technoarm on my 1210 I wanted a sound support tonearm plate (and i still own it). Its a good piece of kit. But, like Marco I remember having to wait one month for some Rega based tonearm plates to arrive. So, whilst the product is good, the service is something which needs series work. ;)
I ordered 2 armboards for my silver technics which I have given to someone in the meantime and they arrived quickly and fitted perfectly, it is frustrating though when things don't go to plan!
Dingdong
23-11-2011, 21:37
Shame that. I've bought off him a couple of times and been quite happy. A month does sound a long time for a couple of bits of metal with some holes in.
Shame that. I've bought off him a couple of times and been quite happy. A month does sound a long time for a couple of bits of metal with some holes in.
Especially when you have an important bake off to attend and need your deck singing at it's best. :)
Quite a few of the smaller websites are manned by people with day jobs who cannot answer their e-mails or phone calls whilst at work, I have found plenty of times when another small dealer asks me for something they never answer back until after 6pm!
I work from home so answer the phone straight away and e-mails within the hour! Of course gmail sometimes let's me down and e-bays spam filters are terrible at blocking messages to my customers!
I answer 24/7 as well for USA customers who e-mail in the middle of the night!
I don't have a problem waiting a reasonable amount of time for emails to be answered, as I know some of these guys have 'proper' day jobs, but it's the fact he only tells me that I have to wait a month for the armboard to be made after numerous emails have been exchanged, where it was blatantly clear that I was in a hurry to get the job done!! :doh:
If he'd said that there was a month's waiting time at the beginning, I'd have politely said 'thanks but no thanks', gone elsewhere, and there wouldn't have been a problem.
Also, what does Italy have to do with it? What's he getting from there, I wonder?? :scratch:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
23-11-2011, 21:44
Try this guy Marco on Ebay http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/f1sport/ I have one of his armboards and it is certainly as good as any of the others about that I have seen; not seen them all though.
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
Thanks for that - interesting.... However, Speedy Steve's going to make me one from a solid piece of ebony :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
23-11-2011, 22:13
Hi Neil,
Thanks for that - interesting.... However, Speedy Steve's going to make me one from a solid piece of ebony :)
Marco.
That should look very nice Marco
Regards D S D L
Yup, it should do. It's just a matter of getting the geometry right...
Your link to the Greek seller was useful in that respect, as it shows Steve the armplate I'm using now (although it's been reversed and modified for my current Ortofon arm), but it gives him an idea of where the mounting hole has to go, so he can make a rough template up before doing the job properly :)
Marco.
A reply just in from Shaun (amazing eh, that he has now miraculously noticed my emails? ;))
Thanks for that Marco,
No Engineering firm would produce a CAD drawing /design and manufacture the item and have it arrive in Italy in 2 days especially if they have a 10 hour a day job and an extremely successful and unique business to run as well, do you think you are our only customer? Or do you think you should jump the queue and get served before all the other Audiofiles we are currently producing bespoke Armboards for?
For your information and based on our experience of selling Armboards to hundreds of Italians over the years I can tell you the average time it takes for a package to arrive to them is 21 days, this problem alone means I spend a lot of time replying to emails from these customers trying to explain why they are having to wait so long, although the truth is I really don’t know. Obviously we can offer a signed for delivery service but most people are reluctant to pay the extra cost.
I would also like to point out that I feel I did tell you at the correct moment during our correspondence about the possible time that manufacture / shipping could take, i.e. before I started the design and requested any funds from you.
So to sum up we have never had a complaint up until now because people know if they want a quality bespoke armboard they have come to the right place and are happy that the end product will be of top quality and well worth the wait.
By the way, as well as my day job and extremely buoyant business my family also demand that I spend some time with them in the evening!
I hope you will also publish this email on your forum in its complete form and not just edit it to suit you. And as they say....
....all publicity is good publicity!!
Highest regards
Shaun
My response:
Of course! It's going on the forum now, 'as is'... I don't fabricate things! It's a bit of a coincidence, though, that you've ignored all my emails since last night until now, when the problem has been brought into the public domain ;)
And I still don't have a clue what Italy has got to do with anything. A month is a ridiculously long time to wait for an armboard to be made, as others on the forum have already commented. If you're running your business properly, you should have the wherewithal to turn over fairly simple products, like armboards, in less than a week.
I know people how can build whole bespoke amplifiers quicker, and still hold down their day job!
The fact is too that at no stage during our exchange, apart from at the last minute, did you tell me that I'd have to wait a MONTH to have the armboard made, and the contents of the email exchanges I've published proves that. It is precisely that issue, and your ignoring me, that has caused this situation.
Anyway, you are free to register on AoS and put your points across, so there is no need to conduct further dialogue by email.
Regards,
Marco.
I still don't have a bloody clue what he's on about regarding Italy!! :scratch:
Any ideas, anyone? Maybe he thinks I live in Italy? :confused:
Marco.
A reply just in from Shaun (amazing eh, that he has now miraculously noticed my emails? ;))
My response:
I still don't have a bloody clue what he's on about regarding Italy!! :scratch:
Any ideas, anyone? Maybe he thinks I live in Italy? :confused:
Marco.
Lol - That would be my guess.
If that's the case, I don't know where he got that from...
Here's a copy of the original enquiry form I filled out on his website, which was included below his first email reply:
From: soundsupports.com Contact Form
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 6:47 AM
To: info@soundsupports.com
Subject: Website contact form
This person has contacted you at your website: www.soundsupports.com
Your name: = Marco
Your email: = framed6images@aol.com
Your message: =
Hi Shaun, I'm interested in having a bespoke armplate made for my modified Technics SL-1210 MK5G, in order to accommodate a new Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, shown here: http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143&Itemid=146
You can see the dimensions needed and relevant geometry, from the technical info given. I would like it made from the the thickest and best quality type of military grade aluminium possible, which would also be practical to use, and I would also like the plate recessed into the tonearm aperture by a degree which you would consider appropriate. I am open to suggestions here.
This is to allow for more scope with adjusting VTA, as simply mounting the plate slighly recessed into the tonearm aperture of the turntable, results in insufficient scope with VTA adjustment with the Ortofon tonearm. Could you therefore please give me an approximation of cost/timescale required to do the job?
As an aside, I own The Art of Sound audio website: www.theartofsound.net/forum Should you wish to join us as a trade member, and advertise your products and service on our site, you are very welcome, and there is no charge for this.
Hope you can help! Best regards, Marco.
toname =
foldername = soundsupports.com
Do you see any mention of Italy? :scratch:
Marco.
Dingdong
23-11-2011, 23:23
Perhaps he just assumed someone called Marco would be from Italy. I can understand that it might take more time than normal with him having to source some mil spec ally and do some drawins for it. A month is a long time, though.
Mark, I can't believe that someone running a supposedly professional business would simply just presume that because I have an Italian name, that I'm living in Italy, without even checking first.
So if someone called Pierre contacts him for an armboard, Shaun will automatically presume that he lives in France?? Come on, mate... However, it is also now somewhat amusing.
All I'm waiting for now is for Shaun to gracefully admit his mistake, and we can put it down as a simple misunderstanding, and move on. I will then lock the thread or remove it, if necessary.
Marco.
All I'm waiting for now is for Shaun to gracefully admit his mistake, and we can put it down as a simple misunderstanding, and move on.
Ah, must be coming from Ireland too
Dingdong
23-11-2011, 23:48
Mark, I can't believe that someone running a supposedly professional business would simply just presume that because I have an Italian name, that I'm living in Italy, without even checking first!! :eek: :doh: :mental:
So if someone called Pierre contacts him for an armboard, he'll automatically presume that he lives in France?? Come on, mate, it's bloody ridiculous! However, it is also rather amusing :lol:
All I'm waiting for now is for Shaun to gracefully admit his mistake, and we can put it down as a simple misunderstanding, and move on. I will then lock the thread or remove it, if necessary.
Marco.
Maybe you could get him to admit his mistake and still get him to do you an armboard and see what you think of them. Sort of a win-win thingummy.
Can't be all that easy running a small business, a day job and a family.
Audioman
24-11-2011, 00:55
Well it's bloody obvious innit - a guy called Marco emails with an address that is not a .uk. :lol::D. Quite a logical conclusion, if you've made a mistake.
Hi Mark,
Maybe you could get him to admit his mistake and still get him to do you an armboard and see what you think of them. Sort of a win-win thingummy.
Can't be all that easy running a small business, a day job and a family.
Indeed, and I wouldn't be against that outcome at all. I'm a fair person.
If he was man enough to apologise for his error (we all make them, after all) and offer to start again, quoting me a more realistic timescale for delivery to the UK (not Italy), then I'd be more than open to that, but the longer he buries his head in the sand and ignores me, the longer this thread will remain and the reputation of his business will suffer.
The thread will be removed as soon as Shaun has the gumption to apologise for his mistake and make amends. It's as simple as that. Let's not forget that our dispute wouldn't be getting aired in public if Shaun hadn't been ignoring my private correspondence to him.
So, in terms of rectifying the situation, the ball is firmly in his court! :)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
24-11-2011, 11:20
I would like to point out that I've have had very satisfactory dealings with Sound Supports, albeit for a standard Linn armboard for the Technics.
Canetoad
24-11-2011, 13:08
Yep, I ordered an SL1210 armboard to fit Marco's Jelco SA-750D to my Techie and it arrived a couple of days later. Seems to be an issue when custom boards are requested.
Quoting 21 days to get something posted to Italy seems to imply he thinks that's where he has to mail it. :scratch:
On a slight tangent, I find it interesting that most armboards for the Techie are two-part, like my own. I wonder why this seems to be the default construction, rather than one-piece?
Spectral Morn
24-11-2011, 14:03
On a slght tangent, I find it interesting that most armboards for the Techie are two-part, like my own. I wonder why this seems to be the default construction, rather than one-piece?
I think Martin this is to provide a lower mounting height to give VTA adjustment on most of the arms that might be fitted.
I am pretty sure this is down to other folks being influenced by the current Sound HiFi armboards (the original ones were flat and not stepped in design) which are designed with SME arms in mind (I think I am right in saying that)
There is no doubt about it but my SME5 arm +AT 33EV would not have any ability to get low enough (as it is its just right and no more as the arm will go no lower with the cart fitted) if it wasn't for the step down on the armboard, obviously with different heights of cart, arms or platters mats etc different (flat) armboards could be used but I guess making them a standard design makes it easier to do as custom boards take time to make. I once asked Origin Live if they could adapt one of their boards for me but Mark said it would be to awkward to do re time as he could spare no one (at the time I asked) to do it; which was fair enough.
I think at the end of the day it comes down to the fact that Technics decks were designed for their own platters and arms and while the motor unit is excellent for use with other bits one must be prepared for a degree of hassle to step outside this and the options already worked out by KAB, Sound HiFi, Mike New, Funk Firm etc.
I would like to fit my Graham Phantom to my Technics and if I had access to a workshop I could do a nice armboard in a few hours (including finishing it off to look nice) but I don't have these facilities so I will just have to wonder what it would be like. I need a flat SME arm plate not a stepped one and even at that I suspect it wont work as A it needs to be lower than a flat plate allows and B the very large cable connector section the Phantom has will make using an arm cable (somewhat vital lol) very hard.
Regards D S D L
I know you need the armboard Marco, I recognise he could have communicated much better and that he mistook you for an Italian customer but you are now just plain bullying him and it's unworthy of you.
I dont know you well, but you always seem so fair and this just isnt. The man is trying to earn a living and does it in his own way which doesnt suit you and fair play. But what's all this talk about 'gumption' and 'admitting his mistakes'.
You are hurting a tiny business because you are put out and its a shame. Let it be.
The issue is that the stock Technics platter sits very low on the deck, so stepped-down arm plates for third party arms are almost always required. With the Mike New platter, however, and especially with the Base Plate, the arm needs to go much higher. Thus my reversal of the step to achieve that with the Dynavector.
There is a large hole under the plate and the rubber base can be neatly cut away so you should have plenty of space for the Phantom's connector gubbins. If I can get a Dynavector in there...
Hi Darren,
I know you need the armboard Marco, I recognise he could have communicated much better and that he mistook you for an Italian customer but you are now just plain bullying him and it's unworthy of you.
I dont know you well, but you always seem so fair and this just isnt. The man is trying to earn a living and does it in his own way which doesnt suit you and fair play. But what's all this talk about 'gumption' and 'admitting his mistakes'.
You are hurting a tiny business because you are put out and its a shame. Let it be.
On balance, I agree. I simply get very frustrated when I feel that I'm being rudely ignored and/or treated unprofessionally or discourteously.
However, although he may not be quite as 'on the ball' as he should be when running a business (part-time or not), clearly Shaun made an innocent mistake, and so doesn't deserve to be punished for that. I have therefore amended the title of the thread and toned down the negative nature of some of the comments.
No matter if Shaun and I do business in future or not, I wish him all the best :cool:
Marco.
On a slght tangent, I find it interesting that most armboards for the Techie are two-part, like my own. I wonder why this seems to be the default construction, rather than one-piece?
Having recently had a good look at the armboard on Marco's deck (many thanks Marco :)), I can see no specific reason why it could not have been milled from a single 6mm piece of plate rather than two 3mm pieces. However, I can see a reason if cost is taken into account. It is certainly cheaper to just profile mill two 3mm plates than surface mill a 6mm plate on both sides; it also means that the actual part that mounts to the deck can be used for every arm mount and only one component has to be changed.
Hi Marco,
I knew this was out of character for you. I think any one can understand your frustration. Let no one doubt your fairness - I cant fault you.
Hi Mark,
Having recently had a good look at the armboard on Marco's deck (many thanks Marco)
No worries, dude... Nice meeting you again and thanks for having a look at the tonearm for me, even though it was unsuccessful. It's now going back to Denmark. Hopefully, I'll have it back soon (along with my SPU)!
You have a lovely home, and I enjoyed listening to your system. It does exactly what a Naim/flat earth system says it should do 'on the tin', which is a good thing, and reminds me of some happy times when I was running olive Naim equipment. Your T/T also sounds (and looks) superb, and appears to show little signs of what I dislike about the musical presentation of belt-drive turntables. Vinyl rules! ;)
Btw, as Speedy Steve is now going ahead with the ebony wood armboard for my Ortofon, since you're such a dab hand now at fitting and removing Techy armboards (lol! :eyebrows:), would you mind, if I popped round again, fitting it for me when it's ready? That would be much appreciated.
I would also like you to make me an armboard from aluminium, as discussed, when you're able to do so. No rush, but at least now you have all the measurements you need. That way, I can compare the two armboards and decide if I like the effect of wood or metal best :cool:
Marco.
Hi Darren,
Hi Marco,
I knew this was out of character for you. I think any one can understand your frustration. Let no one doubt your fairness - I cant fault you.
Thanks, mate :)
Marco.
Nice meeting you again and thanks for having a look at the tonearm for me, even though it was unsuccessful. It's now going back to Denmark. Hopefully, I'll have it back soon (along with my SPU)!
What's happened to it, Marco?
Hi Mark,
No worries, dude... Nice meeting you again and thanks for having a look at the tonearm for me, even though it was unsuccessful. It's now going back to Denmark. Hopefully, I'll have it back soon (along with my SPU)!
Nice meeting you too - I hope you found your way to the motorway OK? Sorry, I couldn't do much with the tonearm :(, I suspect Ortofon will end up replacing it.
You have a lovely home, and I enjoyed listening to your system. It does exactly what a Naim/flat earth system says it should do 'on the tin', which is a good thing, and reminds me of some happy times when I was running olive Naim equipment. Your T/T also sounds (and looks) superb, and appears to show little signs of what I dislike about the musical presentation of belt-drive turntables. Vinyl rules! ;)
Wait till you see the bathroom(s) :)
Glad you enjoyed your listen. Actually, you heard an earlier CF armboard, but I'm changing it back to my composite aluminium one as I miss the greater structure and really overt timing that it offers.
Btw, as Speedy Steve is now going ahead with the ebony wood armboard for my Ortofon, since you're such a dab hand now at fitting and removing Techy armboards (lol! :eyebrows:), would you mind, if I popped round again, fitting it for me when it's ready? That would be much appreciated.
Yep, can do. Actually, I hadn't appreciated what a PITA changing the armboard on the Technics is. If only Technics had provided threaded holes it would have made the job enormously more simple! I guess we will both be waiting on the return of your arm then...
I would also like you to make me an armboard from aluminium, as discussed, when you're able to do so. No rush, but at least now you have all the measurements you need. That way, I can compare the two armboards and decide if I like the effect of wood or metal best :cool:
Well, I'm going to look into it. But I only want to design a board if I can bring something new to solving the problem. As discussed, the issue with more complex solutions is price and whether the market can support it - bespoke production of the kind of stuff I do isn't really a viable option (though prototypes will have to be constructed :)). But, I'll have a go at producing the CAD drawings from the measurements I took (and the template I made).
Hi Mark,
Nice meeting you too - I hope you found your way to the motorway OK? Sorry, I couldn't do much with the tonearm :(, I suspect Ortofon will end up replacing it.
Yup, your directions were spot on! Regarding the tonearm, I don't mind if they simply fix my existing one, as long as the job is done to the required standard, as that option may be quicker than waiting for a new arm to come.
Wait till you see the bathroom(s) :)
Lol - I can imagine... I promise that I'll 'Christen' one of them next time! ;)
Glad you enjoyed your listen. Actually, you heard an earlier CF armboard, but I'm changing it back to my composite aluminium one as I miss the greater structure and really overt timing that it offers.
No worries. It sounded mighty fine with the CF board. If you get round to making me an armboard, mainly for aesthetic reasons, I think I'd go for the composite aluminium :)
Yep, can do. Actually, I hadn't appreciated what a PITA changing the armboard on the Technics is. If only Technics had provided threaded holes it would have made the job enormously more simple! I guess we will both be waiting on the return of your arm then...
Indeed, and thanks for that. Anyway, it'll give us an excuse for another sesh! I'll bring some of my own records with me next time :cool:
Well, I'm going to look into it. But I only want to design a board if I can bring something new to solving the problem. As discussed, the issue with more complex solutions is price and whether the market can support it - bespoke production of the kind of stuff I do isn't really a viable option (though prototypes will have to be constructed :)). But, I'll have a go at producing the CAD drawings from the measurements I took (and the template I made).
;)
Excellent. Keep me posted!
Marco.
You best give Dom some money for the extra electricity that will be used from your PSU, it looks like an 80's krell...:)
:eyebrows: :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dominic Harper
25-11-2011, 12:15
So is everything sorted now Marco?
Hi Dom,
So is everything sorted now Marco?
Yes, but I'll have to get there super-early (before things kick-off in earnest) in order to sort out my turntable, as a tonearm and/or armboard and cartridge (please have your Supex or OC-9 ready) will have to be fitted and set-up properly. What time to you suggest, mate? :)
David, you'll need to be there early too, with the arm :cool:
Marco.
Dominic Harper
25-11-2011, 12:29
No prob mate, but the Supex is now in my arm lol, sporting a Ruby cantilever. The OC9 is available, or a Denon DL160, Goldring g800 with two differing stylus 's, Linn Karma, You could even try the Onyx, but Im not convinced about its performance at the mo.
No prob mate, but the Supex is now in my arm lol, sporting a Ruby cantilever. The OC9 is available, or a Denon DL160, Goldring g800 with two differing stylus 's, Linn Karma, You could even try the Onyx, but Im not convinced about its performance at the mo.
Ok, dude. What I'll do is bring a couple of headshells, already fitted with cartridge wires, and we can fit, say, the OC-9 and Karma onto them, then compare them with each other and see which sounds best on my T/T....
What time should I get to yours for, to allow for all the necessary fiddling to be done? :)
Marco.
What's happened to it, Marco?
New thread started on this subject here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14363
Marco.
Mike_New
02-12-2011, 09:06
Marco,
I have copper arm board blanks which have not yet been machined for the SME (the majority of boards I make) I can machine one for you if you can give me the specs for the mounting holes and the relative location from the spindle.
Audioman
02-12-2011, 10:00
Surely if this arm is made by Jelco it should still have the same mounting and geometry as the Linn arms.
In Marco's case the geometry is slightly different because he uses an Ortofon SPU which is pre-mounted in its own headshell with no overhang adjustment. Therefore, the arm length is not adjustable and the geometry relies on the arm mounting hole being in a very specific location - I believe it is about 4mm different to that stated by Jelco (which assumes that you have the benefit of a slotted headshell to make fine adjustment).
Hi Mike,
How's it going, mate? Long time no hear! :)
I have copper arm board blanks which have not yet been machined for the SME (the majority of boards I make) I can machine one for you if you can give me the specs for the mounting holes and the relative location from the spindle.
Wow - that would be really great!
It would need to be further 'stepped down', though, than those shown on your website, and not simply a single flat, slightly sunken, plate. Basically, I'd need it to be similar to the one I had before, where the tonearm collar sits in its own recess (the recess should be around 3-4mm lower than the main body of the armboard):
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5453/bb0pgbmkkgrhqqhcieqt5zw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/bb0pgbmkkgrhqqhcieqt5zw.jpg/)
Do you understand what I mean?
Otherwise, there wouldn't be sufficient leeway for VTA adjustment. The ortofon arm unfortunately doesn't have as much height adjustment as the Jelco... What's needed is an armboard very similar to the one for the Jelco, shown above, (with a round aperture cut out of the board), only of a wider diameter (the base of the ortofon arm is thicker than the Jelco) and a different spindle to pivot distance.
Anyway, I think you'll find most of the measurement info you need here (the tonearm shown is the one I have):
http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=143&Itemid=146
Like Mark says, the crucial measurement is the mounting distance between the pivot point and turntable centre, which is 216mm.
I could also send you the tonearm mounting pattern template, which came with the arm, once I get my replacement tonearm back from Ortofon (long story!), which should be by the end of the week, if that helps.
And/or, Mark, as you've taken detailed measurements of the required armboard dimensions, perhaps you could supply Mike with any further info he may need?
Cheers, chaps! :cool:
Marco.
P.S Oh, and I'd like 5mm allen bolts, to secure the armboard, please, if you can do it, not screws or button-head hex bolts.
Mike_New
02-12-2011, 22:49
Hi Marco,
When I offered to make an arm board for you I forgot that you have never fitted my Bearing Base Plate. This serves two purposes, it stiffens the base area of the alluminium plinth and also raises the platter height by 6mm just enough to overcome the height restraints for most arms, I believe.
I have never made a two-piece arm board as I feel that the two pieces, can only degrade the stiffness in this crucial area and cause the arm board to act like a diaphragm.
There is mention of the need for absolute rigidity in this area in one of the SME technical bulletins.
The problem with the SL1200 is that there is a large hole to bridge when the existing arm/VTA assembly is removed. Unless this hole is sufficiently bridged with a rigid assembly then the thin metal double layer approach held together by three small screws, is not going to do justice to an expensive arm and/or cartridge.
I have however designed a single piece arm board specifically for the SL1200, with a suitable depression, which could fit all requirements. It would be machined from alluminium or brass and would be much thicker than the ones now available. This “thickness” is designed to be below the top surface of course.
There is marginably more machining to do but I will put a price on it of A$295.00 for the Alluminium version Inc postage. The unit will be a drop-in replacement for the existing Arm/VTA assembly.
Each arm board by it’s very design will be specific to a particular tone arm and spindle distance.
I have a SL1200 development test bed so I can accurately set off the required spindle-to-arm column centre distance with long-reach vernier calipers for each arm board I machine.
Hmm...what's that armboard in your pics Marco? It's not the one you had fitted to your deck when I saw it. Is it the acrylic one you mentioned?
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the information, and your points have been noted :)
I may well go for one of those armboards, but first of all I'd like to see what the one is like that Speedy Steve (on the forum) is making for me, out of a solid thick piece of ebony.
I should have this by sometime next week and will report back on its sonic effectiveness, or otherwise. I will then give consideration as to whether to go for one of your armboards, as a comparison to Steve's :cool:
Marco.
Hmm...what's that armboard in your pics Marco? It's not the one you had fitted to your deck when I saw it. Is it the acrylic one you mentioned?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jelco-SA-750D-SA-250-Armboard-Plate-Technics-1200-1210-/160687936903?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2569bf5587
:)
Marco.
Hmm, black anodised aluminium and under £50 - it certainly isn't expensive!
I wonder about all this rigidity thing, as one is in danger of moving the resonances somewhere else?????
Hardwood seems a good place to go and I always thought that a two-piece affair tightly clamped together would break up fundamental resonances and it may be a single plate that could act as a diaphragm - Linn and Thorens platter assemblies were two-piece for this very reason - has anyone ever owned a Fons turntable with its one-piece-bell clanging platter?
I'm not an engineer as you can see above, but in any case, the arm is adjustable for height, so there's a break at this point in any case, unlike with a Rega style arm which really does seem sensitive to what it's attached to..
Over the last few years I've done a lot of work with armboards, arm termination and the method by which arms and armboards are mounted. I've made a lot of prototypes, done a lot of modelling and done a lot of listening. What I would say is that my findings suggest that absolute stiffness and rigidity are not necessarily the optimum solution.
As an aside, the ARO uni-pivot bearing are interesting, as the cup and associated spindle are a very close fit into the pillar assembly proper, putting a break there.. A classic one, the ARO, whatever I think of the final price and the exit cable, which I remember contributed more to the "sound" of this arm more than the mechanical nature of the arm itself...
Interesting concepts and forgive my engineering naivety :)
Dave, if you tried to have small batches of such an item precision machined and finished, you would soon know where the money went.
However, I agree that the bearing construction of the Aro is interesting. As you say, a shaft running inside a sleeve, free to rotate and filled with silicone oil. The inner shaft rests on a small ball-bearing. The arm pillar is constructed not unlike the main bearing of many turntables.
Hi Dave,
I wonder about all this rigidity thing, as one is in danger of moving the resonances somewhere else?????
Hardwood seems a good place to go...
I know what you mean and suspect that there could be something in what you say.
At the moment I've reversed the armboard, so that the inner ring is sitting on top of the outer one, which although this means that VTA is slightly compromised (although not by much with the SPU, as it's a tall-bodied cart), it allows the tonearm to be supported upon the whole solid structure of the T/T, rather than merely fixed onto a plate 'floating' inside a big hole, see what I mean here:
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/277/img1082ao.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/img1082ao.jpg/)
In that configuaration, sound quality was phenomenal, however I had no way of knowing whether that was due to the new armboard arrangement, or simply because I'd just upgraded to a whole new tonearm - or a combination of both!
However, when I get my Ortofon tonearm back, I intend to test the theory in isolation by comparing one configuration against the other, in order to ascertain the best compromise: 'stepped-down' armboard, 'floating' inside a big hole, with VTA spot-on, versus a 'flat' armboard, rigidly coupled to the T/Ts main structure, but with VTA slightly out.
Anyone fancy taking bets on what will sound best?
I know that Martin T has already done this comparison, and reported excellent results, although in his set-up the reversed armboard merely allowed him the extra height to get VTA spot-on with his Dynavector arm, so I suspect that he was in a win-win situation with that one! ;)
On another note, I'm also hopeful that a material as rigid and inert as solid ebony, made as an armboard, will act as an effective foundation for the tonearm - we shall see! :)
Marco.
Over the last few years I've done a lot of work with armboards, arm termination and the method by which arms and armboards are mounted. I've made a lot of prototypes, done a lot of modelling and done a lot of listening. What I would say is that my findings suggest that absolute stiffness and rigidity are not necessarily the optimum solution.
I bet that your ex-wife had a somewhat different view! :eyebrows:
;)
More seriously, I agree. There are simply too many variables (a significant one being the construction of the T/T in question and the tonearm used) in order for there to exist one universally 'best' armboard solution - and that applies to everything else in audio.
However, the more I think about it, the more I'm confident that, on the Techy, a rigidly fixed flat armboard, made of *whatever*, will sound better than a 'stepped-down' armboard, made of *whatever*, 'floating' inside a big hole...
Therefore, I think that's what I'll ask Steve to make for me, and then find out if Arthur could produce a bespoke, slightly thicker, Achromat for me, say 6 or perhaps 7mm, instead of the normal 5mm, so that VTA is spot-on with the rigidly fixed armboard, and then (hopefully) get the best of both worlds!
Marco.
Stratmangler
03-12-2011, 10:57
Therefore, I think that's what I'll ask Steve to make for me, and then find out if Arthur could produce a bespoke, slightly thicker, Achromat for me, say 6 or 7mm, instead of the normal 5mm, so that VTA is spot-on with the rigidly fixed armboard, and then (hopefully) get the best of both worlds!
Marco.
You'd be better off fitting the bearing support plate first ;)
However, the more I think about it, the more I'm confident that, on the Techy, a rigidly fixed flat armboard, made of *whatever*, will sound better than a 'stepped-down' armboard, made of *whatever*, 'floating' inside a big hole...
Are you; I'm not.
At the moment I've reversed the armboard, so that the inner ring is sitting on top of the outer one, which although this means that VTA is slightly compromised (although not by much with the SPU, as it's a tall-bodied cart), it allows the tonearm to be supported upon the whole solid structure of the T/T, rather than merely fixed onto a plate 'floating' inside a big hole..
Having the inner section of your two piece armboard above the outer ring doesn't make it any more (or less) rigid than when it is mounted below below the outer ring - in terms of how rigid the structure is, it doesn't make any difference whether the inner section is above or below the outer section, they make the same contact with each other and are attached in the same way.
If you have another armboard made out of a different material it will sound different - but that will be at least as much to do with the different material it is made from as it is to do with the fact that it may be a one piece construction as opposed to a two piece.
Are you; I'm not.
Well, it worked well for Martin! :)
Having the inner section of your two piece armboard above the outer ring doesn't make it any more (or less) rigid than when it is mounted below below the outer ring - in terms of how rigid the structure is, it doesn't make any difference whether the inner section is above or below the outer section, they make the same contact with each other and are attached in the same way.
No, Mark, there is a difference... If you look again at the above pic, you'll see that the inner ring now makes much more contact than before with the outer ring, and the whole armboard structure is more rigid, as a result.
Whereas before, the inner ring was simply 'floating' inside a big hole, mainly being supported by just the edge of the outer ring, which meant that the arm collar, supporting the tonearm, didn't have a rigid surface underneath it, rather just a big hole. It does have a rigid surface underneath it, the way I have it now :cool:
Do you get what I mean? If not, Martin's post (#6) explains it a bit better, here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13537
The bottom line is that reversing the armboard in this way appears to have a postive sonic effect on the Techy!
If you have another armboard made out of a different material it will sound different - but that will be at least as much to do with the different material it is made from as it is to do with the fact that it may be a one piece construction as opposed to a two piece.
Yup, I get that.
Marco.
Hi Chris,
You'd be better off fitting the bearing support plate first ;)
Neither Martin or I could detect much difference, sonically, when did the comparison at his place last year. It's also an utter ball-ache to fit, so I'm passing on that one :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
03-12-2011, 11:57
Hi Chris,
Neither Martin or I could detect much difference, sonically, when did the comparison at his place last year. It's also an utter ball-ache to fit, so I'm passing on that one :)
Marco.
I'm thinking of the VTA issue ;)
Ah, I see... Only problem then is that it may expose the electronics underneath the platter, and look unsightly.
It would depend on whether the 'skirt' of the Funk platter was deep enough to hide the 'innards' of the T/T, once it was raised by the bearing base plate... It's one to ponder! :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
03-12-2011, 12:15
It would depend on whether the 'skirt' of the Funk platter was deep enough to hide the 'innards' of the T/T, once it was raised by the bearing base plate... It's one to ponder! :)
Marco.
Is this a roundabout way of saying that you're not refitting the Mike New Platter? :eyebrows:
If you remember, Marco, the funk platter on my deck did indeed hide the innards better than my prototype Mike New platter, despite the base plate being installed. Here's my arm plate reversed in the same way as yours:
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/ArmPlate.jpg
Audioman
03-12-2011, 12:25
Ah, I see... Only problem then is that it may expose the electronics underneath the platter, and look unsightly.
It would depend on whether the 'skirt' of the Funk platter was deep enough to hide the 'innards' of the T/T, once it was raised by bearing base plate... It's one to ponder! :)
Marco.
Marco if you are settling on the Funk platter there is little point in the base plate as if I remember correctly it is there to strengthen due to the weight of the Mike New platter. As far as the plate orientation goes and from an engineering point of view the step up/down should make no difference.
I am assuming that either way the inner plate is bolted securely to the outer plate which is in turn bolted securly to TT top plate. Nothing is floating over a hole as you put it. Energy transfer from the arm will be the same. Also absolute rigidity may not produce the best sound depending on the arm design. This can only be determined by experimenting and listening tests.
If you remember, Marco, the funk platter on my deck did indeed hide the innards better than my prototype Mike New platter, despite the base plate being installed. Here's my arm plate reversed in the same way as yours:
Martin, can you explain better than me why reversing the orientation of the armboard that we both use on our T/Ts improves the structural rigidity of our respective tonearms?
I've tried, but no-one seems to be getting it :doh:
Off out for lunch now, chaps, to our favourite gastro-pub - laters!
Marco.
P.S One other purpose of Mike's bearing base plate was to give the bearing itself something more to 'grip' onto, and thus perhaps improve sonic performance....
In reversing the plates, I did bond mine together and used nuts and bolts rather than just relying on the threaded holes as before. There is also the benefit of gravity holding them together.
However, most importantly for me is the fact that the arm collar/chuck now sits on a flat surface and is bolted up tight rather than via spacers. This I believe has made a significant improvement.
Martin, can you explain better than me why reversing the orientation of the armboard that we both use on our T/Ts improves the structural rigidity of our respective tonearms?
It doesn't.
On a more pedantic note; nothing that one does to the armboard can alter the 'structural rigidity' of your tonearm. The structure of the arm will be the same whether it is welded to a lump of titanium or stuck in a lump of cheese.
In reversing the plates, I did bond mine together and used nuts and bolts rather than just relying on the threaded holes as before. There is also the benefit of gravity holding them together.
Bonding them together will make a difference, but the effect of gravity is negligible in this instance (using nuts instead of relying on the threaded plate isn't inherently better unless one wishes to tighten the screws until the thread is stripped from the aluminium).
In either case, having the board one way up, or the other, will make no difference to the structure or the integrity of that structure. In fact it surprises me that anyone should think that it would.
Lol - yes, sorry, I should've said the structural rigidity of the armboard mounting arrangement, which in my experience is improved by reversing the orientation of armboard I've currently got.
In either case, having the board one way up, or the other, will make no difference to the structure or the integrity of that structure. In fact it surprises me that anyone should think that it would.
I'll show you what I mean when I come round next! :)
Marco.
No, Mark, there is a difference... If you look again at the above pic, you'll see that the inner ring now makes much more contact than before with the outer ring, and the whole armboard structure is more rigid, as a result.
Whereas before, the inner ring was simply 'floating' inside a big hole, mainly being supported by just the edge of the outer ring, which meant that the arm collar, supporting the tonearm, didn't have a rigid surface underneath it, rather just a big hole. It does have a rigid surface underneath it, the way I have it now :cool:
No Marco, there is no difference (except visually) - of that I am certain. I will try to explain:
The armboard is made from two parts - an outer ring that bolts to the deck (A) and an inner section that screws to the outer ring (B) - neither of these components have been altered. There is an overlap between the surfaces of component A and component B - this overlap is the same irrespective of which face of component A component B is screwed to. It might look like there is more support, but that is only because you can see component B overlapping component A; but the components are overlapping exactly the same amount if B is screwed to the underside of A as it is when it is screwed to the top side.
See previous post, dahling, we're going round in circles! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Audioman
03-12-2011, 16:33
The armboard is made from two parts - an outer ring that bolts to the deck (A) and an inner section that screws to the outer ring (B) - neither of these components have been altered. There is an overlap between the surfaces of component A and component B - this overlap is the same irrespective of which face of component A component B is screwed to. It might look like there is more support, but that is only because you can see component B overlapping component A; but the components are overlapping exactly the same amount if B is screwed to the underside of A as it is when it is screwed to the top side.
Agree. Since they are rigidly joined by the same method, irrespective of which way up, they act as the same one piece for transfer of energy. So any energy from cartridge through the arm will be dealt with in the same way. Any difference you hear will be due to more accurate VTA adjustment.
Mike_New
03-12-2011, 23:33
Paul,
I think your observations actually sum up the totale of the argument.
However what has not been considered is that the two plates may not have absolutely smooth flat surfaces and most probably will not. Depending on whether the two surfaces are mounted under or over each other then the absolutely matching or touching parts of the surfaces will change. This may be what Marco is experiencing.
Given the excellent sonic quality of arms such as are now being fitted to the SL1200 to matched and indeed to take advantage of the vastly improved quality which my replacement bearing offers; it surely behooves us to examine the mounting for a new arm and to arrive at the most sonically convincing arrangement possible.
The production of a two-piece assembly makes for easier and therefore less costly manufacture. With the outer ring being a standard fitting, and the inner ring being quickly laser cut to the required arm specs and would be available for other turn tables.
With my SME single part copper arm board the mounting slot is actually shorter that recommended by SME, because I am able to optimize the location/angular-orientation, and size of the slot exclusively for use on the SL1200. This provides additional support for the very heavy and rigid arm column across the large hole in the arm well of the SL1200
For other quality arms I believe that the single-piece arm board machined for the specific arm is the ultimate way to go. Machining an inner depression in this board to lower the mounting point is not rocket science, but since it does imply a single-piece component specifically machined for the particular arm on a one-off basis, then the price is going to be a bit higher.
but the effect of gravity is negligible in this instance
Being pedantic, the benefit of switching the plates around is worth twice the effect of gravity on the entire mass of the arm and sub-plate.
...has anyone ever owned a Fons turntable with its one-piece-bell clanging platter?
Yes! In my eyes the LP12 beater...
Mike_New
03-05-2012, 23:22
John,
Are you demonstrating a new type of speed sensor for the SL.
If so can I have one??
Old thread revival! Found this thread when looking for some info about this company.
Once again Sound Support's loss is Speedy Steve's gain.
Taking 4 days to answer a simple email and getting info out of them is hard work.
Steve on the other hand excellent comms and all the help and info I need.
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