PDA

View Full Version : Sorry, Rob, for I have sinned ....



jandl100
18-11-2008, 09:54
Oops ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/RevolverttSamba.jpg

I spotted some LPs I fancied in a charity shop where I do some volunteer work ... the rest is history.

Revolver TT, Ortofon Samba low output MC cart.

My main problem now is finding a decent and cheap phono stage. A kind forum member has loaned me his Lynwood stage, and that sounds fab but is really more than I wanted to spend or that this little tt rig can justify.

No, it doesn't sound as good as my CD setup, but it's pretty decent and allows me to spin the LPs I craved. :)

To be honest, the real main problem is finding vinyl that is in good enough nick for this digital-dude to tolerate! :scratch:

Filterlab
18-11-2008, 10:12
LOL! Nice one Jerry, the Revolver is a fine turntable. Apparently the Creek phono stage is very good, but what would I know eh?! :) One day I'll get into vinyl again, but as you said...


To be honest, the real main problem is finding vinyl that is in good enough nick for this digital-dude to tolerate! :scratch:

...that's quite a hurdle to overcome when going back to vinyl.

:)

Marco
18-11-2008, 10:33
LOL... Not if like me (and other 'serious' vinylistas) your deck and cartridge is immaculately set-up and you keep your records in pristine condition! Trust me, that done, it's not an issue for consideration.

I'm bringing the 1210 to Steve's on Thursday so you'll discover this phenomenon for yourself ;)

Nice one, Jerry - you're on the 'slippery slope' now, shweety :eyebrows:

Marco.

Filterlab
18-11-2008, 10:36
LOL! You seem to think I've never heard a decent vinyl set-up.

Marco
18-11-2008, 10:42
Hehehe... Well if you had, you wouldn't consider the condition of records as "quite a hurdle to overcome when going back to vinyl" ;) ;) ;)

It's quite simply a non-issue when using a good deck playing pristine records :)

The problem is new vinyl is expensive and a lot of second-hand stuff is in poor condition. To do things properly you really need a professional record cleaner.

Marco.

Filterlab
18-11-2008, 10:47
Hehehe... Well if you had, you wouldn't consider the condition of records as "quite a hurdle to overcome when going back to vinyl"

Why not? A record (as you've stated) has to be pristine to be as clean in terms of background as a CD. Therefore, unless all records are pristine and undamaged and not dusty and are stored in anti-static sleeves then there will be background noise and clicks etc. That simply doesn't apply to CD unless a CD is severely damaged.

It's not a criticism of vinyl in any way, it's just something that has to overcome (a hurdle if you like) that doesn't quantifiably exist with digital formats. I have no doubt in my mind that vinyl plays as well as CD, but only if a record has been kept in perfect condition.

jandl100
18-11-2008, 10:54
My problem is that I'm not willing to pay more for LPs than I do for CDs ... I buy CDs for a few £ on eBay - they are almost always 'pristine'. You just cannot do that with LPs, ime. :( If someone can tell me where to get Mint classical LPs for a few £ each, I will be 1 Happy Bunny. :)

Filterlab
18-11-2008, 10:56
My point exactly. :) Nice to have a choice of sources Jerry, one day I will get back into vinyl (and I wish I'd kept my Thorens now), but not just yet. It will certainly be around for many years to come though there's no doubt.

Marco
18-11-2008, 11:08
Indeed, Jerry. There are gems out there though if you look in the right places - try your local Oxfam, for example.

Like I said, a good record cleaner really sorts things out. You've no idea the difference it can make to 'crudy' old second-hand records which before cleaning sound 'muddy' and horrible, and after cleaning sound clear, crisp, and precise. Even new vinyl benefits from cleaning due to the removal of mould release agent.

Rob, you're right - I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying that providing you play clean (undamaged) records and look after them then there isn't a problem. As far as I'm concerned (and other vinyl enthusiasts) that's part of a normal procedure. I don't sit there listening to scratched records. I buy new vinyl and second-hand vinyl in good condition (I examine old records very carefully before buying them) which play perfectly in the same way as you would buy CDs or download music which play perfectly.

The point I was making is that clicks and pops and T/Ts don't automatically go hand-in-hand. It just takes a bit more care to achieve the same standards of 'flawless playback' as digital :)

Marco.

Filterlab
18-11-2008, 11:13
I fully agree mate. I just think that a vinyl set-up requires a lot more attention to get bang on, attention that takes a bit of time and patience, and of course very clean records. There's no doubt vinyl punches as hard as CD of course. :)

Marco
18-11-2008, 11:23
Dammed tootin'!

I associate the "attention" as part of the romance of playing records, though - I love the 'ritual' of playing vinyl, and admiring the artwork and packaging - which for me is the reason that it will always remain my number one music format, no matter how good computer audio gets.

I find accessing music via a computer a bit 'soulless' in comparison, if you see what I mean, but each to their own :)

Marco.

jandl100
18-11-2008, 11:40
Dammed tootin'!

I associate the "attention" as part of the romance of playing records, though - I love the 'ritual' of playing vinyl, and admiring the artwork and packaging - which for me is the reason that it will always remain my number one music format, no matter how good computer audio gets.

Marco.

I'm starting to think the same way about CDs! :lol: Bloody soulless downloads:mental:

;)

jandl100
18-11-2008, 11:42
... and yes, Marco, spot on about some Oxfam treasures ... picked up a couple of near-enough Mint LPs at the weekend at one of the 'specialist' Oxfam music shops in Hereford. :)

Marco
18-11-2008, 11:57
Yep, I've bought loads of vinyl from the Oxfam in Liverpool over the years... Some (the bigger ones in London, for example) even have a record cleaning machine available for you to clean your records (for a small charge) prior to purchase :)

Don't worry you'll soon become addicted because, leaving aside debates about sonic presentation and 'pristine-ness' of playback compared to digital, collecting and playing records is much more fun!

Marco.

jandl100
18-11-2008, 12:19
Any suggestions for a cheap but good phono stage for a 0.3mV MC cart?

I've already tried and sold a CA 640P. It was "OK" until I heard something better and realised how grey & bland it was. I now have on loan a modded and seriously PS-ed Lynwood stage.

Marco
18-11-2008, 12:39
Yep, but gimme a clue what your max budget is :)

Marco.

Mike
18-11-2008, 14:16
Hi Jerry,

You could start somewhere around here: http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/category.cfm/Category/103

And work upwards from there.


Cheers...

jandl100
18-11-2008, 18:40
Yep, but gimme a clue what your max budget is :)

Marco.

Well, I bought the Revolver tt for about £60, and the Ortofon Samba for about £60, so ..... :)

In fact, I'm expecting to pay a bit more than that for a decent enough phono stage, but not hugely more.

Does that help? I'm happy to buy used kit.

Marco
18-11-2008, 20:27
Hi Jerry,

Budget's a bit tight for me, mate. I normally recommend Graham Slee and Icon Audio for budget phono stages, but those are way more than what you're considering spending.

Aside from the ones in Mike's link (which are all well regarded - I'd say that the Pro-ject phono box is probably the best) I've heard good things from this little unit, if you can stretch to $210:

http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_69&products_id=512

It's built beautifully and looks lovely!

Marco.

Mike
18-11-2008, 22:22
How about: http://www.richersounds.com/showproduct.php?cda=showproduct&pid=CAMB-640P-SIL

They usually go for £40-£45ish on fleabay.

Marco
18-11-2008, 22:35
Ahem...


I've already tried and sold a CA 640P. It was "OK" until I heard something better and realised how grey & bland it was.

;)

Marco.

jandl100
19-11-2008, 08:02
I've just invested £130 in a mint/used MF X-LPSv3 .... should get it tomorrow. If it doesn't do the biz they are easy enough to sell on. I'll let you know how I get on with it.

Mike
19-11-2008, 13:30
Ahem...



;)

Marco.

<shrugs>.... Pays yer money and makes yer choice. Not much to better it at that price point.

Irrelevant now anyway.

Marco
19-11-2008, 15:10
LOL, yup. I was just pointing out that Jerry had stated that he'd already tried the Cambridge and wasn't impressed and there you were suggesting it to him! ;)

Jerry, that's a good choice. I'd forgotten about the MF. Keep us posted on how you get on :)

Marco.

Mike
19-11-2008, 20:47
And I was hinting (in a round about way ;)) that Jerry was unlikely to be 'impressed' by much at all around that price point.

:)

jandl100
21-11-2008, 08:28
Phono stage update! :)

The CA 640P is on its way to its new owner in Chermany.

I have a Lynwood phono stage on loan from a kindly Wammer. :) He says he is not fussed about selling, he's just a hifi fan who enjoys sharing his enthusiasms - I guess we can all identify with that! ;)

I now have a MF XLPSv3 - arrived yesterday.

The Lynwood sounds great, had it for a few days now. But -it's not well known and would be tricky to move on, I think. (Sorry, I'm a box-swapper - I can't help it :mental:) The current owner has been trying to sell it for a while.

The MF X-LPSv3 is quite good, but doesn't quite match the tonal richness, focus and dynamic ability of the Lynwood. TBH the MF sounds a bit boring in comparison. :( It's way ahead of the CA 640P though.

I'm told, by a X-LPSv3 fan-boy, that the X-PSUv3 will solve all my woes. I seem to have sourced a nice cheap sample of that so will probably give it a go.

Sadly, I missed a Whest phono stage advertised on another forum yesterday. :(

Strange how my budget for the phono stage seems to be creeping upwards .... :scratch:

Good fun, eh?!

John
21-11-2008, 08:46
Yes you already in danger of becoming hooked on what vinyl can do and the phono stage can make a huge difference
Hope you finding this fun.
Try contacting Whest to see if they have any B stock or they might know someone wanting to sell James is extremly helpfull

combwork
21-11-2008, 18:13
Why not? A record (as you've stated) has to be pristine to be as clean in terms of background as a CD. Therefore, unless all records are pristine and undamaged and not dusty and are stored in anti-static sleeves then there will be background noise and clicks etc. That simply doesn't apply to CD unless a CD is severely damaged.

It's not a criticism of vinyl in any way, it's just something that has to overcome (a hurdle if you like) that doesn't quantifiably exist with digital formats. I have no doubt in my mind that vinyl plays as well as CD, but only if a record has been kept in perfect condition.

If I can join in gentlemen, I've found vinyl playback can at it's best do more than just equal CD; it can add a sense of space to the music. OK, maybe sometimes it can sound a little like sitting under a tin roof in a hailstorm, but to me, vinyl gives a kind of expanded sound at times. It's the 'at times' that can be really strange. I've got a 7" mono 45 rpm record on the Capitol Classics label (USA Recording) of the Poet and Peasant Overture, played by The Hollywood Bowl Symphony Orchestra under Felix Slatkin. I don't know when it was made, but I would guess late 50's/early 60's and it's amazing. It runs to a full seven minutes a side and there's nothing missed. The introduction hits soft very deep bass notes, the high notes are clean and clear and the crescendos work without any audible compression. Given a good clean pressing, it shows what was possible 40 years ago, never mind on modern 180 gm vinyl that you're afraid to play.

jandl100
21-11-2008, 19:07
Ah - 45rpm. That really shows up what standard 33rpm is missing! I've come across this before. Stands to reason when the data rate is increased by 35%. Wonder what they would sound like at 100rpm? .... coming up toward CD revs there! ;)

Prince of Darkness
21-11-2008, 19:33
coming up toward CD revs there! ;)

But a CD's speed is constantly changing (about 200 - 500 rpm)!:lolsign:

Mike
21-11-2008, 21:41
Jerry... You really should try to hear a WD Phono3 :)

John
22-11-2008, 10:29
Jerry... You really should try to hear a WD Phono3 :)

Yes agree an excellent phono stage

combwork
22-11-2008, 12:46
Ah - 45rpm. That really shows up what standard 33rpm is missing! I've come across this before. Stands to reason when the data rate is increased by 35%. Wonder what they would sound like at 100rpm? .... coming up toward CD revs there! ;)

Interesting. The only 100 rpm disks I know of were made by Pathé in the 1900's. Vertically cut disks, they were reputed to sound better (`though quieter) than contemporary 78 rpm lateral cut disks. Whether this was down to disk speed or type of cut I don't know.

"Stands to reason when the data rate is increased by 35%" How would the data rate of the first track on a 12" 33 rpm LP compare with a 7" 45? I've a few odd records, including a 10" vinyl 78. Lonnie Donegan singing a version of "Sloop John B." well before the Beach Boys got at it. Although a bit noisy (bad storage), it has a very fast attack; plucked string bass notes sound live........

jandl100
23-11-2008, 08:25
"Stands to reason when the data rate is increased by 35%" How would the data rate of the first track on a 12" 33 rpm LP compare with a 7" 45? I've a few odd records, including a 10" vinyl 78.

Heh heh .. yes, I was only kidding about the data rate .... kind of.

If my hypothesis was correct, there would be a noticeable and substantial degradation in sound between the outside and inside playing area of LPs - not sure anyone has ever noticed such a thing .... have they? Disregarding tracking error/distortion, of course. The alleged 'data rate' would be down by a factor of 2 or more ..... :scratch:

& If anyone would care to loan/offer me a WD Phono 3 ..... ;)

jandl100
29-11-2008, 07:39
The upgrade bug bites already. :)

I collected this little beauty last night .... :smoking:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/PioneerPL-505.jpg

Horrible journey - fog fog fog - but well worth it. The Revolver is undoubtedly a fine entry level tt - but this one is def a step or 3 up the sound quality ladder. And it is fully auto ;) - just a shame it doesn't come with remote control. :(

Anyone recognise it? :)

Mike
29-11-2008, 10:10
Looks like it could be a Pioneer PL-505 or 707?

Filterlab
29-11-2008, 10:12
Jeez, that didn't take long Jerry! Looks like a very nice turntable indeed, certainly nice to have full auto too. For a remote you could use a long stick.

scoobs
29-11-2008, 10:26
That looks suspiciously like Richard Dunn's 707. With some minor mods?

pure sound
29-11-2008, 12:23
Good choice Jerry.

jandl100
29-11-2008, 13:22
Looks like it could be a Pioneer PL-505 or 707?

Yup - it's a 505. No, not Richard Dunn's 707. Bloody nice though. :)

Needed a slight increase in effective mass - curtesy of a heavy black washer blu-tacked to the top of the headshell and a couple of 2p coins similary attached to the counterweight - to mate well with my Ortofon Samba mc cart. Smoother fuller sound has resulted.

My tt rig is now 'good enough', even with the humble MF XLPSv3 - the Revolver didn't quite make it. (The Revolver is up for sale, for those who fancy a decent 'starter tt rig' ;)).
I hope to get the MF XPSU to feed the XLPS in a few days. That might be fun.
:)

Togil
29-11-2008, 18:02
That reminds me of the last time I listened to vinyl ( mid-seventies ) when I invested in a hopeless device which was supposed to keep records clean and avoid static charging by releasing a liquid ahead of the cartridge - all it did was to cause massive flooding :)
Was this device known in the UK ?

Marco
30-11-2008, 10:59
Not as far as I know, Hans. I think in the near future you should expose your ears to a decent turntable, properly set-up in a synergistically matched system, playing your favourite tunes and re-evaluate your opinion of vinyl. I think your listening experience could do with a little updating ;)

Marco.

shane
01-12-2008, 21:46
That reminds me of the last time I listened to vinyl ( mid-seventies ) when I invested in a hopeless device which was supposed to keep records clean and avoid static charging by releasing a liquid ahead of the cartridge - all it did was to cause massive flooding :)
Was this device known in the UK ?

There were a couple of these so-called "wet-play" devices around, and thoroughly dreadful they were too. One I think was supplied by Goldring.
They consisted of a tracking arm incorporating a reservoir which fed cleaning fluid to a plush pad about 1cm in diameter which rested on the disk like a dust bug and dispensed the fluid in a band onto the record ahead of the stylus. The idea was that the fluid would lift any dirt into suspension and would also cool and lubricate the stylus in the groove. A number of people swore by them but they had problems, the worst being that once the liquid dried, any dirt it had lifted off the disk was glued back down, so unless you committed yourself to wet-playing permanently your records were effectively ruined. That and the messiness and impracticality of the whole affair meant that they finally died an unlamented death.

Edit: Just found this: http://www.vinylengine.com/library/goldring-lenco/lencoclean.shtml

Togil
01-12-2008, 22:04
Yes that's what it was !

We filled it with a mixture of doubly distilled water and pure alcohol but it didn't solve the problems :)

shane
01-12-2008, 22:09
If that was your last experience of vinyl, I'm not surprised you were put off. I'd be put off driving if my last experience was an Amphicar!

Things are so much better now that you really should swallow your pre-conceptions and give it another go.