HRT' Streamer II' [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Welder

12-11-2011, 14:25

There are a few reviews of the basic HRT Music Streamer v The Caiman on the net :)
It all gets a bit more complicated after that.
Imo, if you are prepared to only use USB data transfer even the basic HRT Music Streamer sounds better than the Caiman over USB :eyebrows:
Move up to the HRT 11+ or the Pro and ….well not wanting to aggravate the Caiman fan club here I won’t do the waxing lyrical bit.

HRT streamers are not without their problems though. The most obvious is there is only USB.
The next problem is the further up the HRT range you go the more amps they need from the USB power legs and not all computer USB controllers are happy with this :doh:
I wrote loads of seemingly irrelevant stuff if you don’t have an HRT about this here.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8016

If you want a Dac to connect to a CD transport or replace a Dac on a CD player the HRT isn’t for you.
If you want a Dac that you can lever valve output stage into, the HRT isn’t for you.
If you want a Dac to mod with a few boutique components the HRT isn’t for you
If you want a Dac that looks the business and will make a good gallery picture the HRT isn’t for you :lol:

If on the other hand you want a reasonably priced Dac that is ideally suited to a file based audio set up and sounds like its playing music…….well read the reviews. You’ll be hard pressed to find a bad one even from some of the most jaundiced vinyl and valve enthusiasts.

I’ve had over the years every HRT model except the newest iHRT and have had them running successfully from a 1.5 GHz processor with 512MB of RAM to my well over the top file server.

When the time came for me to wave goodbye to my record player and I sat there with a disgruntled look on my face trying to convince myself that my mid range CD player sounded as good as my vinyl set up as I poured over the expensive audiophile exotica wondering if I flogged one of the kids I could afford a decent sounding CD based system one of my music playing friends said to me, “John, learn about file based audio and buy a HRT Music Streamer”.
This was probably the best audio advice I’ve had since an Australian mate I had back in the 70’s said to me “get this bunch called AC/DC to play at the club mate”.

My recommendation is the HRT 11+ out of the range. The Pro is an acquired taste and you don’t get the best from it without balanced amplification and separate power supply.

Alex_UK

12-11-2011, 14:32

Thanks for that John. Very helpful.

TopBalcony

12-11-2011, 19:54

I would be interested in comparing the HRT to a Squeezebox Touch. I suspect there is not much difference in SQ.

Jerry, buy an hrt on sale or retun basis(there are many vendors online), apply the USB settings to the sbt and be amazed.

Alan

15-11-2011, 22:29

I've a streamer II I picked up on eBay for £80 last year - it resides proudly in my office system, and would probably not disgrace itself in the big rig. Even at full whack, it's something of a bargain IMO. I love it.

I have had a Caiman as well, which is a fine DAC, but it always seemed better over SPDIF. The HRT is - to my ears - rather better with USB.

Its worth pointing out that getting away from spinning discs to computer audio brings benefits in itself, coupled with a tasty little audio bargain like a Streamer II means you can't lose.

Alex_UK

26-11-2011, 11:32

Decided to bite the bullet - should be getting a Streamer II next week :)

Rare Bird

26-11-2011, 11:36

Nice one Alex

michaelhigh

27-11-2011, 07:09

Decided to bite the bullet - should be getting a Streamer II next week :)

I've been going back and forth, I'm waiting for a deal to fall through with someone advertising one never opened for $100, best price I've seen yet on the Streamer II. Looking forward to your impressions.

Patoufrench

28-11-2011, 09:56

I can only confirm. I have a V-DAC and HRT Music Streamer. I spent some time with both at the same store with HRT permanently (personal tastes and sticks better in my system). The HRT is very effective.

The HRT is a little softer analog.

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7035/dac.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/dac.jpg/)

Rare Bird

28-11-2011, 10:13

Thats an original HRT you have.

Alex_UK

30-11-2011, 21:33

Well, I plugged my HRT Music Streamer II in last night, expecting great things - and it doesn't work properly. :(

Basically the sound comes out, but there's loads of digital "noise" - clicks and pops and occasional skipping. I managed to faff around with ASIO4ALL in Foobar and get it to play almost ok for a while, forcing it to "Always Resample 44.1khz <-> 48khz" but it's no dice just playing the MS II from anything else (Foobar without ASIO4ALL, JRiver, Spotify etc.)

My laptop is old and fairly basic - an IBM T42 ThinkPad - with only a 1.8ghz Processor and 512mb of RAM, XP SP3 - but I had no problems with the Caiman.

Any ideas? I've tried in all available USB Ports including one from the docking station and one from a powered hub, but no difference. I've tried a different USB cable, just in case, and disabled the laptops standard soundcard, just in case, but nothing makes any difference. Is the laptop just not up to it?

Alex_UK

30-11-2011, 22:42

Well, this is rather annoying... tried it with an almost identical spare laptop, albeit not in a docking station or with hub/external HDDs - and it works fine, as it does via my main Vista laptop, so must be something peculiar to the "hi-fi" laptop... Maybe too many USB devices attached - so there's my next line of enquiry!

Rare Bird

30-11-2011, 22:48

Ive used mine with old & new computers suffed full of USB's, even very lo spec, no issues at all! If your using it with PC or laptop have you disabled the soundcard? muted everything?

roob

01-12-2011, 00:04

Maybe you need one of these?
http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 00:21

Thanks chaps - it is definitely something peculiar to the installation/setup of this particular machine (swapped the hard drive into the other laptop and the problem stays with the hard drive) - now going through uninstalling a load of stuff, before giving up and rebuilding it from scratch, if that doesn't work! Not a problem as I can use the other laptop instead anyway, but I just hate being beaten by these challenges! :)

Rare Bird

01-12-2011, 00:41

Maybe you need one of these?

No fancy power supplies will alter it's performance ;)

roob

01-12-2011, 08:18

Taking the computers 5v power line out of the equation is always a good thing.

Tim

01-12-2011, 18:06

Well you are not alone Alex, I just bought myself a Streamer II + and so far it's giving me all sorts of problems, clicking and stuttering, very low volume and it often just hangs and freezes. Tried this on my main computer and the music server, but still no joy.

This is with WASAPI/Foobar as well, not sure what the issue is and I have tried all sorts of settings - you would think it would just work. I initially thought it may be my music server and a power issue, as that's pretty stripped back on resources with only a small off board PSU producing 65W. The REGA works perfectly but has it's own power supply. However, trying it on my main desktop machine gives the same results, so I doubt it's a power issue. Googling shows that others have had similar problems.

Will have to try ASIO and maybe JRiver, but at this rate it's likely to be going back - I should have kept the Caiman :(

Welder

01-12-2011, 19:17

Oh dear :scratch:

I think you may find the problems don’t lie with the HRT itself but with Win7 and WASAPI and apparently hot news from my mate who has just bought the new basic streamer, JRiver and their asio config.

I’m going to state here yet again; I have tried the HRT 11, the HRT 11+ and the HRT Pro and have not had a single problem. However, I don’t use Win7 or WASAPI and I made sure I set the computer up properly.

Firstly, the HRT 11 (basic) is quite capable of drawing sufficient power from a USB port, provided that port is not shared by any other device. You do not need a separate power supply at this stage.
So that’s the first thing to check. Both (Alex and Tim) should know how to do this so I won’t go into any detail.
If you have a USB port that is nominated for charging purposes for example it may be able to supply a continuous 500mA as opposed to the normal 100mA packet delivery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
http://www.pcug.org.au/boesen/USB/USB2.htm
If so then plug into this USB port.

Check that you have the latest USB drivers

I would suggest that if you’re having problems, dispense with WASAPI and use asio4all and try this with foobar.
It would seem from Alex’s post where he states the problems followed the hard drive that somewhere something is not configured correctly in his case.

I've set these things up on Linux (various), Vista, Win7 and while there have been plenty of problems, they haven't been with the unit itself, just the operator ;)

Tim

01-12-2011, 19:55

Thanks John, I am sure the issue lies with configuration problems and the next stage will be to try ASIO, but I have lost patience with it for tonight, as I want to listen to some music and not scratch my head looking at a computer screen (done that already today for 8 hours at work!).

I have checked the port power and have now ruled that out, I have also emailed HRT Support outlining the issues I have experienced.

There are quite a few others looking around some forums who seem to have experienced similar problems and the common denominator so far does seem to be Foobar & WASAPI. It's hard to gauge though, as most folks don't really describe the problem fully - tech support guys must have a nightmare trying to figure out what a lot of folk actually mean!

I have an old DELL laptop somewhere with XP and asio4all setup, which I always thought sounded good, but the laptop used to introduce it's own noise issues. I will try that tomorrow and if it works OK, then I think Win7, Foobar and WASAPI is the culprit. Many MAC owners have the HRT and have no issues. Alex's hard drive problem is a puzzler though :scratch:

Just tried it with standard Windows settings and VLC player, no problems at all and I have to say it sounds pretty good.

I'll report back if HRT get back to me with any suggestions/solutions.

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 19:59

Tim

01-12-2011, 20:21

Well it does seem to be Foobar/WASAPI as anticipated. Works perfectly with VLC and I just tried the minimal JPlay application, again no problems and I have to admit, even at this early stage I'm impressed.

Also (and a big thumbs up for them), I have had a reply from HRT within 10 minutes of contacting them;

Thank you for your email. I believe you may have a number of setup issues to resolve. If either of the two previous DACs required the installation of any software, those 'bits' will need to be uninstalled and the computer restarted before proceeding.

First off, using a driver model such as WASAPI with an asynchronous transfer protocol pairing may not be the best choice unless you can reduce the buffer size to a very small value. Any buffer will unnecessarily delay the host's (computer's) response to polled feedback and this will effectively break the underlying concept of an asynchronous interface.

As for the "...very low..." level, this would almost certainly be caused by either the mixer, either at the media player's virtual pin or at the mixer's summation port.

I would suggest that you start with a simple configuration and test using Windows 7 "Test" feature as outlined in the "Windows 7 / Vista" setup document available from the support page of the HRT website (http://www.hirestech.com/pdf/vista_win_7_setup.pdf). Next, try an uncompressed PCM stream (.wav or .aiff) using Windows Media Player. Once this is running correctly, then move on to your media player (Foobar 2000).

Please report back at each step of the testing process so that we can contribute any additional suggestions that might be discovered during the setup process.

Kevin Halverson
CTO
High Resolution Technologies, LLC

That's what I call a good response.

So Alex, we need to progress beyond Foobar/WASAPI for this one it seems, but having spent the last few minutes listening to the HRT with JPlay, I think the effort will be worth it - John and André are not wrong (but I never doubted they would be ;)).
Listening to 'Gan to the Kye' by The Unthanks through the HRT > Matrix Headamp > HD650's is truly wonderful - there's nowt wrong with the HRT, it's a computer/software issue. So a bit of time and effort to get your configuration right is all's that's needed, but this won't be going back :eyebrows:

Welder

01-12-2011, 20:33

I must admit I’ve not tried on a IBM Think Pad. I don’t think much so the need for one hasn’t arisen yet :lolsign:

I started off with my 1.5GHz, 512 RAM Sony Viao. I was fortunate in having a friend with a great deal of experience in file based audio so the “plug and play” optimistic advertising didn’t take me in :rolleyes:
That was a couple of years ago or more……….

My view is get the HRT working on whatever machine will handle it and find out if you like the sound it makes first. Later…..well the tweak list is endless but you’ll need endless patience to go through them all.
For me its all been very worthwhile but some just cant be arsed with all the agg and i can understand that. But, you guys, well if i recall correctly, computer savvy so get it sorted innit :eyebrows:

God knows how it happened because I hate computers as a rule but I’ve got very interested in making them sing since my first steps into file based audio.
Eventually chaps you’ll have to dump Windowz; it’s almost obligatory at a certain stage.
Maybe start now :eyebrows:

Edit: that's great Tim. I would hate to think that Andre, me and others have gone totally deaf.

Welder

01-12-2011, 20:44

Just as a possible guide to the sound quality I believe you can get once you’re sorted; the basic streamer should smoke the Caiman over USB and to my ears compete with the new Rega Dac :eyebrows:

If this isn’t what you hear then yer doing it wrong :doh: :lolsign:

Tim

01-12-2011, 20:45

Edit: that's great Tim. I would hate to think that Andre, me and others have gone totally deaf.
Nah, I think those cloth ears still have some life in them John ;)

I did briefly venture beyond Windowz when I first got into file based audio, but didn't go far - mainly because of the lack of will because of my job. But I hope to get myself away from computers in the New Year, so I may be more inclined to dabble with them recreationally (I hate the darn things too).

Been playing some more and I'm really liking what I'm hearing - through headphones anyway. The sound-stage is wonderful, with a really great midrange, which is something I love being a Harbeth owner. So at the moment I'm very pleased, I just need to find the right hardware/software configuration for it now.

Tim

01-12-2011, 21:09

Going to back track slightly - I've tried 3 IBM ThinkPads and all have problems just using Spotify, without even getting into the Foobar/ASIO4ALL stage. (Strangely, the second one I tried seemed fine with a DVD, via VLC but not Spotify or Foobar.) Rebuilt one from scratch with minimal install, and still no go. Works fine with my Sony Vaio, my wife's Dell, and an ancient (10 yrs+) Dell, so I've come to the conclusion I will never get the IBM's to work. (They only have 2 USB ports and neither makes any difference.) Going to persevere with the ancient Dell for a bit and see how that goes.
Alex, it's going to need a bit of tweaking, but set your device in Foobar to DS: Speakers (Music Streamer II +) and reduce the buffer size to as low as it will go. This solved my Foobar player issues, but I intend to experiment with some differing music players now, to see what can be improved. But as John states, it has smoked it's predecessor already (as far as my listening tastes are concerned anyway).

Welder

01-12-2011, 21:18

I cant stress enough how important it is to get some form of asio working with your music player on any Windowz OS.
If you can get WASAPI to be nice then its pretty good but I still think asio4all sounds better, and a true asio driver is a small step up from that. :)

Rare Bird

01-12-2011, 21:21

As im a good lad & all that i took mine to work to try using on a W7 operating system, works perfectly with Media Monkey.So good look U two.

Tim

01-12-2011, 21:31

Well I'm certainly impressed at the moment, it's definitely up with the Rega (if not beyond it) and has very similar characteristics when it comes to the 'analogue like' presentation of the Rega.
I guess I have to thank you guys (André & John), I always had my eye on an HRT, but it was this thread that prompted me to do something about it. Early days I know, but so far I'm not sorry I did despite it's teething troubles.

Welder

01-12-2011, 21:53

Cool Tim, at least you like the sound :)

On the critical side, the HRT 11 lacks some detail compared to some Dacs and to my ears anyway seem to be a tad bass light.

These criticisms are pretty much dealt with by the HRT 11+ which has more (omg! I’ve been dying to use this hi fi geek speak meaningless term) authority! :ner:
Erm, it sounds better (not night and day, cor wow, how did I ever think I had a hi fi, I heard stuff I never knew existed on this track) just a bit more detail and a better bass presentation.
The strengh of both imo is their musicality.....ahem.:eyebrows:

I’m going to say something really silly now; both sound better with Linux. I think its about the USB driver implementation which has always been a bit ropey with Windowz. You are quite welcome are quite to call me delusional and do the bits are bits bit. ;)

Rare Bird

01-12-2011, 21:54

I found out about he original HRT' by borrowing it from a friend over the Atlantic, before i knew it i ended up buying one of the first ones available over here, so impressed i went for the 24/96 capable 'Streamer II' when it became available.. i have to say they are one of the best things in audio that ive ever bought, i'm not a fan of computer based listerning but these babies really changed my mind & i don't think i'm wrong in saying they wipe the floor with any CD player ive owned....I'm now looking into trying the HRT 'Headstreamer'

btw: i do cheat a tad by manipulating with Media Monkey's onboard EQ.

:sofa:

Tim

01-12-2011, 22:08

You are quite welcome to call me delusional and do the bits are bits bit. ;)
Well I have had that argument before with somebody and despite what my 'geek' head tells me (yes bits are bits), how you present them can and definitely does sound different to my ears and that's all I care about.

I have never heard the Streamer II, but the Streamer II+ is ticking the boxes for me right now. I'm only listening on headphones, but my goodness. I trialled a pair of Sennheiser HD800's recently and loved the wide and solid soundstage, which to me sounded outside my head, instead of in it, but I didn't fancy the hefty price tag..... well what do you know, a third of the price and look what I've got now :)

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 22:16

Just waiting for media library to rebuild and wife to go to bed before having a listen... :rolleyes:

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 22:18

BTW Tim - with the arrival of the HRT I too am now a member of the "I completely changed my system since joining AoS" club! :eyebrows:

Tim

01-12-2011, 22:20

Just waiting for media library to rebuild and wife to go to bed before having a listen... :rolleyes:
I have WASAPI working OK now Alex, just set the Windows settings as per this http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/pdf/vista_win_7_setup.pdf and set your buffer as low as possible. Seems OK, but over the weekend I'm going to set asio4all up and try some other players too. I guess it's only a matter of time before I build a Linux machine :doh:

Tim

01-12-2011, 22:21

BTW Tim - with the arrival of the HRT I too am now a member of the "I completely changed my system since joining AoS" club! :eyebrows:
:lolsign:

Reid Malenfant

01-12-2011, 22:22

BTW Tim - with the arrival of the HRT I too am now a member of the "I completely changed my system since joining AoS" club! :eyebrows:
Gosh Alex, what are you going to do with all those CDs of yours :D

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 22:35

Gosh Alex, what are you going to do with all those CDs of yours :D

http://courtney.monstro.com/portfolio/cd_dress.jpg

:lol:

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 22:40

I have WASAPI working OK now Alex, just set the Windows settings as per this http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/pdf/vista_win_7_setup.pdf and set your buffer as low as possible. Seems OK, but over the weekend I'm going to set asio4all up and try some other players too. I guess it's only a matter of time before I build a Linux machine :doh:

Ain't no WASAPI here, with XP. The biggest annoyance is that it won't play Spotify from the IBMs and there's no way of making any adjustments - I'll have another play in Foobar though, because I don't think I tried reducing the buffer - I naturally assumed max was best.

(Just listened to 3 tracks on ye olde Dell Latitude 810 (BC) and not skipped a beat through Foobar...(yet!))

Welder

01-12-2011, 22:42

I think he's already done it :eyebrows:

Tim

01-12-2011, 22:48

The biggest annoyance is that it won't play Spotify from the IBMs . . .
I haven't tried Spotify yet

EDIT Ooo look, this was my 2,000th post - should have made more of an effort! :lol:

Reid Malenfant

01-12-2011, 22:54

http://courtney.monstro.com/portfolio/cd_dress.jpg

:lol:
You been on a diet Alex, while I'm asking questions have you had a sex change to m8? :lolsign:

Alex_UK

01-12-2011, 23:01

Yep, a pretty intense diet - chop off your willy to loose a few ounces! :D

Gazjam

02-12-2011, 00:09

only a few ounces?

Rare Bird

02-12-2011, 00:14

Um
If i had my meat & two veg remove id be 14LB lighter :D

:sofa:

Welder

02-12-2011, 17:16

Woahhhh, Hi Fi Collective sent me an email telling me that High Resolution Products were to grace their pages :stalks:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/accessories/hrt.html

Oh look, you can get a complete Dac for the price of a large capacitor :eek::mental::lolsign:

TopBalcony

02-12-2011, 18:09

Am i the only one here to use the HRT with a SBT? I've used the HRT with a pc, but its performance with the SBT, esp with Soundcheck mods applied, is of a much higher order. The SBT seems ideal because it should remove all the pc noise, and in practice this imho etc is what happens.

Tim

02-12-2011, 20:53

Hmmm, I spoke too soon as my problems are not sorted yet.

The issues as first mentioned were on my music server which is where I first used it. Last night I switched to my desktop machine to trouble shoot and the symptoms were the same, so when I sorted them there, I assumed they would be sorted on the music server as well. I just hooked it up to the server and nope, not so, still not working correctly. My stuttering and hanging problems have gone, but the low volume persists - it sounds like the music is coming from an echoey box, ill defined and low in volume, with some elements barely audible. This is with every media player application I have tried, not just Foobar - so it's back to the drawing board. I suspect it's a power issue, as every setting is identical between the two machines now, so it can't really be anything else. . . . bugger :(

Welder

02-12-2011, 21:02

Which model HRT have you got Tim?

Not quite sure why you thought sorting a software problem on your PC would magically transfer itself to your music server.

Welder

02-12-2011, 21:29

I cant count the number of times I’ve posted this but here you go again.
http://www.ayre.com/usb-vista_setup.htm

It states that foobar, WASAPI, and Win7 don’t play nicely together, so take note.
As I wrote earlier, try asio4all. It really isn’t that complicated to set up.
Let me put it like this, my daughter has my HRT 11+ atm. She knows bugger all about computers and she managed to get the HRT to work by following the above link instructions and one phone call where she got stuck with getting asio4all to work.

Tim

02-12-2011, 22:09

It's not only Foobar/WASAPI John, I have just tried asio4all with Foobar, as well as JPlay, VLC and JRiver players, all the same issue - so it's a hardware problem rather than a software one. I only thought the issue would be solved as the software is the same on the server as my main PC and the problems were identical - I assumed that once I had got it working on the main PC, it would be fine if I duplicated the set-up on the server - but I guess not.

I have read the Ayre article before, but I've been getting excellent results with Win7, WASAPI and Foobar up to now and last night on my main PC, the HRT was working beautifully with those as well. :scratch: I know you are not keen on WASAPI, but I like how it sounds and HRT has a link on their website which does not diss it either http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/pcmusic.htm
I can only say that for me it works and last night it worked well with the HRT. However, what I have not done yet is compare asio to WASAPI on the main PC, to see if one suits the HRT more than the other. But that's immaterial at the moment, until I find a way to get the HRT and my server working together.

Maybe you should send your daughter round to fix it for me ;)

Welder

02-12-2011, 22:35

I don’t know mate. I know some people have had problems but it’s usually down to not being able to set the computer up.
I just assumed that this should be a breeze for you.
I won’t make any more send daughter over suggestions ;)

Oh arr, I will add it took me almost a week to get my HRT and Linux to be nice to each other :eek::eyebrows:
The problem is the asynchronous transfer it seems with many setups; just says no with certain combos.

Alex_UK

02-12-2011, 22:42

F*%$ I hate computers! Think I'm nearly there with the ex-Stonhenge Dell, but this device has hardly been plug and play... with the computer I actually bought it for... I'd forgotten what a ball-ache it is to build a machine from scratch, and have run into all sorts of problems with getting the wireless card to work, Remote Desktop etc. - but I am sure it will be worth it in the end!

As a caveat, I'm sure 90% of people will have no problem just buying one and plugging it in...

Tim

02-12-2011, 22:47

Well I'm not giving up yet, as I know what it is capable of and I like it, but it is being a bit pesky on the server right now :steam: I don't have a spare PSU to try, so will have to strip the one out of my main PC over the weekend. I do suspect that's where my problem lies, or perhaps the asynchronous transfer conflicts with the motherboard on the server maybe?

Tim

02-12-2011, 22:49

but I am sure it will be worth it in the end!
I think it is Alex, I really like the way it sounds and was extremely pleased last night listening on my main PC, I just need to get it friendly with my server now - but it sure ain't plug and play for me either.

Welder

02-12-2011, 23:55

Just to make life even more miserable, apparently in the vast majority of Mac connections it just plugs and plays :doh:
While I’m pretty certain it will make music with most PC’s and Windowz OS it would be nice if it involved less use of big hammers.

I blame microshite meself. :steam::rolleyes:

(I'll get back to your PM later Tim) :)

Rare Bird

03-12-2011, 00:32

Alex_UK

03-12-2011, 00:51

O dear poor Alex & Tim, i feel i should appologize for getting you into all this grief :( ...I bought a cheap Dell Lattitude D620 as a spare laptop (running XP Pro) the other day, i've just connected up the 'Streamer II' works perfect, again plug & play.

No need to worry, dude! Annoyingly, that is exactly the spec of my wife's laptop (which I got for her) and it "just works" too - I wonder if she would notice if it suddenly changed into an IBM... :lol:

Alex_UK

04-12-2011, 10:30

Well I've solved my problem - after trying my wife's laptop, and completely buggering it up for her :doh:!

And the solution is... a 3m USB extension lead from my main Sony Vaio laptop - the old clunker Dell was giving problems once loaded up with external drives etc - so I had to abandon that.

So far, so good on the Sony... I've wasted hours and hours on this, but I think I am finally there. Got to go out now, so more music to listen to later and hopefully all sorted.

Welder

04-12-2011, 14:10

Well I've solved my problem - after trying my wife's laptop, and completely buggering it up for her :doh:!

So far, so good on the Sony... I've wasted hours and hours on this, but I think I am finally there. Got to go out now, so more music to listen to later and hopefully all sorted.

I've become that curious now as to why you and Tim have had so many problems I'm searching for an IBM Thinkpad to have a play with.
Anyway, I'm pleased to read you've got it partially sorted. I hope the hours spent pissing about with the various combinations doesn't in fact turn out to be a waste of time.....more a learning experience on the path to better quality audio...... :eyebrows:

Oh arr, forgot to mention a basic rule; dont mess with the missis's computer with the HRT coz they're small enough to hide or hurl. :lol:

Tim

04-12-2011, 14:20

. . . dont mess with the missis's computer with the HRT coz they're small enough to hide or hurl. :lol:
:lolsign:

Well I can't get it to like my music server one bit - in fact it seems they hate each other, even with asio4all! So I just moved my main PC and hooked it up to my system. I still like it, but not as much as the Rega in my main, but I do prefer it with my headamp and phones, so that's where it will live. It works extremely well with the M-Stage and Sennheiser's, a wonderful combo and much more revealing and involving than the Caiman. I may revisit the server issue at some stage, but for now I'm happy with it performing headphone duty, which is what it was originally purchased for. :)

Welder

04-12-2011, 14:42

:lolsign:

Well I can't get it to like my music server one bit - in fact it seems they hate each other, even with asio4all! So I just moved my main PC and hooked it up to my system.

I really don't know what you lot do with your computers :scratch: :lolsign:

Tim

04-12-2011, 14:44

I really don't know what you lot do with your computers
. . . and it's best you don't ask either :eek:

Welder

04-12-2011, 15:03

I assess all the changes I make to my server through headphones to cancel out any room interaction; yeah I know the headphone amp has glass bits in it but you cant have everything ;)

Basically, whatever sounds better through headphones is in my experience the better sound. I think you should persevere with getting your server to play nicely with the HRT; after all mate you built the bloody thing so you should be able to get it to behave :scratch:
If the HRT works with your main computer then one can only assume you’ve got a problem with the server build somewhere; powering USB would seem favorite given you cant have much else in there :)

Welder

04-12-2011, 15:42

I’ve had a thought :eek:

If you are getting zero communication between the HRT and computer and the USB port you are using is proven to be working with other peripherals it is just possible that the sequence which you connect the Dac and computer isn’t opening the USB gate.

Switch everything on with the Dac connected; then unplug the B end of the USB cable and reconnect to the Dac. If you get a noise through the speakers at the time of connection you know you’ve got power.
Sometimes I get this problem on my laptop when I’m swapping things about; the gate just won’t open unless everything is connected up in the right sequence. It only happens with Windows USB drivers and ports strangely :scratch:

Stratmangler

04-12-2011, 23:08

What a faff!!!
I've not had 1% of the problems in this thread feeling my way along the path of Server Clients and whatnot getting my Squeezeboxes to work.
I guess that I mustn't have a masochist bone in my body ;)

Alex_UK

04-12-2011, 23:15

Well, it has been working perfectly all day with my Sony Vaio/Vista/Foobar/Asio4All - so that is a result. The only slight downer is that the Sony is supposed to be my main laptop and I wasn't really banking on converting it to HiFi duties just yet, but them's the breaks, I suppose! Solution will be that for the times I can "critically" listen I will connect the Sony up to the MS II/Hard Drive, and for background music the old ThinkPad will be fine, through the Caiman, and my backup external HDD. The SQ suggests the inconvenience is worth it. :)

Rare Bird

04-12-2011, 23:57

Buy yourself a new Lappy just for Hi-Fi duties that what ive done..

Stratmangler

05-12-2011, 00:08

Buy yourself a new Lappy just for Hi-Fi duties that what ive done..

That's a lot of expense for running a USB DAC :eyebrows:

Rare Bird

05-12-2011, 02:09

but it's special :eyebrows:

Welder

05-12-2011, 07:31

Yeah, it's Special!

XFkzRNyygfk

(Note to self, don't post early morning :eyebrows: )

Alex_UK

05-12-2011, 18:38

Another update... Foobar still isn't perfect even on the Sony - the odd click and pop here and there - enough for me to be annoyed. However tried MediaMonkey with Wasapi and that seems to be better - too early to say "fixed" - as I've already said that about ten times now! :lol:

The Pink Panther

05-12-2011, 20:05

I have ones one of these and they do sound very very good. One Caveat, My Netbook struggled with the HRT when operating more than one media program. When Spotify, ITunes and Monkey Media where open at the same time strange noises started happening.

So to sum up. I would advise your computer to have a good spec.

Ahem

The Pink Panther

05-12-2011, 20:08

Hmmm - that could cause me problems then - my music laptop is deliberately low spec and stripped down, running XP - mind you, I usually only run Foobar if I'm playing FLAC and close it down for Spotify, so hopefully it would cope.

:doh:

Alex_UK

05-12-2011, 20:17

Stratmangler

05-12-2011, 20:44

Ahem! Squeezebox! Then you can forget all this pissing around trying to get the things working reliably and just enjoy listening to the music...................;)

Welder

05-12-2011, 20:45

Seriously guys, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry :doh:
If you’re getting noises through the Dac, they are coming from the computer unless the Dac is faulty.
If I was reading this thread and was considering an HRT I reckon I wouldn’t bother :(

The thing is, there almost certainly isn’t anything wrong with the Dac. Thousands of people have bought these and run them on just about every type of computer configuration imaginable.
I shouldn’t care really, its not my product and if a few people here cant make it work for them I doubt it will impact on the sales.
But, I do care because it is a fantastic bit of kit and I would like this Dac to get a fighting chance on this forum that seems dominated by inferior sounding more expensive options.

I’ll take a guess and say the reason for your pops and clicks are due system processes running :eyebrows:
If you don’t know how to stop these manually then try one of the pre built packages from this site.
http://www.blackviper.com/

On a low powered laptop, Windows XP works best and is easiest to manage imo.
One of the most important things to consider is if you’ve got anti virus, firewall, internet connection, Wi Fi, and all the other assorted crap making system demands then you’re likely to get problems unless you have serious system processor power and plenty of RAM.

Use this to check how much impact certain system services have on the streaming
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

If you get spikes (Yello) then find out what causes them.
You should be able to get a level green bar output.

Stratmangler

05-12-2011, 21:36

I'm more than mildly amused that a USB DAC is causing such problems :lolsign:
What's this more expensive but allegedly inferior sound bit of kit that you referred to John?

Tim

05-12-2011, 21:50

That's all well and good John and I'm with you all the way, but I consider myself a fairly experienced computer user, having built countless over the years for both myself and others and I suspect Alex is no slouch either. I have managed to get my HRT working perfectly now, but it took a deal of troubleshooting. Most people don't have the level of knowledge I have and clearly don't have your level - so the HRT has the 'potential' to be highly frustrating for some if they experience difficulties. If all DAC's presented these issues then no problem, it would be expected, but I have used countless DAC's during the time they have become popular and never once had to do anything more than plug them in.

Having spent some time Googling last week, it seems Alex and I are not the first to have set-up issues with this product, which seem to be mostly related to Windows machines, so one up for Apple there. But it is IMO a failing in the design if it does not work out the box for a number of it's purchasers. Problems like this used to occur all the time in the days of DOS, but it's not something you expect these days. If it's a known configuration issue with some software, then this should be detailed in the product set-up notes. After all, most file based audio users will be using a Windows PC or MAC and popular software like Foobar, JRiver or Media Monkey, so no doubt HRT will have tested all of these and should be aware of any conflicts?

To get things in perspective, it is without doubt a high quality product and a fantastic digital to analogue converter and I'm really glad I persevered, but what would a novice computer user do? Many people who use this forum cannot even get to grips with posting a picture in a thread or pasting in a YouTube video - so they would really struggle if they had the issues Alex and I had? We may have just been unlucky and we could be the 2 or even 1% of users who experience a problem. I also totally agree with the sentiment about not wanting to put people off, as I would urge them not to be. This is a fantastic DAC for the money and deserves to be heard - chances are it will work straight away for 99 out of a 100 or even 1,000 people and I would love to see it given a fair crack of the whip. Additionally, the more competition there is for a good DAC, then the better it will be for file based audio users as developers continue to improve their products.

So don't be put off anyone and give this little gem a go, you won't regret it :)

Welder

05-12-2011, 21:52

I was very careful not to use singular and not to mention any specific products Chris ;)

Alex_UK

05-12-2011, 21:57

Hi John, thanks again for taking the time to reply on this thread.

I 100% agree that it is likely to be processes and all the other "crap" causing the problems - trouble is I'm not ready to junk my best laptop to get it to work flawlessly. That said, it is only a USB soundcard at the end of the day, and it should "just work" with the majority of laptops out there, I think I've just been unlucky with the IBM I was intending on partnering it with.

Now about to get some system time, so will be interesting to see how it goes... All good fun, isn't it!

The Pink Panther

05-12-2011, 22:13

Thing is though Matt, apart from my 3 year old Sony, the best system it ran on was an ancient Dell laptop (10 years old) - so I don't think it is quite that simple - but yes, you are allowed to say "told you so!" :lol:

Hey no sweat, just a bit ironic. Hope the HRT works out for you.

I have luckily left DACS, laptops, , cd players all behind me in the rear view mirror. :hotrod:: and have hit Hifi nirvana squarely on the head.

living the dream, ridin the bull, feeling the flow.

Welder

05-12-2011, 22:17

I can’t argue with any of that Tim.
Yes there are quite a few forum posts regarding people’s problems setting up not just these Dacs over USB but others as well. This is one of the reasons Dac manufacturers like Ayre provide a guide.

I will say in defense of the people who design and manufacture USB Dacs that it is almost impossible to produce a product and guide that can cover every computer configuration and make as standard, let alone cover what the less computer able audiophile might have altered in their particular setup.
Asynchronous Dacs seem particularly sensitive to setup but I believe the sonic results are worth the hassle.

I have been a very strong advocate of file based audio here on AoS but something I have stressed over and over is that it often isn’t easy to coax glorious music out of a machine that was designed primarily for other tasks.
So, if it seems like I’m having a sly dig at people struggling, you’ve (general) read me wrong. I want people to get the best possible sound; I’ve typed out pages with that goal in mind.
If my frustration shows; and that is exactly what it is, then forgive me, I can’t help being passionate about a subject that interests me.

Sometimes, computer audio can be just plug and play, but I believe this is a similar to the most basic turnatable/arm/cartridge combo fro example; from there on it takes effort, knowledge and experience to get the sound one wants.
The problem with imo the audiophiles perception of file based audio is that good quality audio comes without such effort, knowledge and experience and when it all goes wrong, it’s the fault of the kit when its more likely to be as mostly in the case of computer related problems, the fault of the person operating the machine.

In a nutshell, you cant expect great audio out of a machine that makes the tea, does your washing, provides your TV and acts as a phone, calculator etc etc. If this was the case they would have grafted all these functions onto a record deck by now ;) :eek:
This is why at a certain point many file audio enthusiasts build a music server.

Stratmangler

05-12-2011, 22:24

I have an EMU0202 ADC/DAC and it can cope with 24/192 natively, and it doesn't kick up a fuss or glitch in any way.
And it sounds very, very good indeed.
It does require the use of a proprietary driver, and it does have its own Asio driver too.

The reason I don't use it as a main source is that I don't want to be tied to having to hook up a USB HDD with my music files, and I don't want to be tied to having to use a laptop in order to play files.

For me the Squeezebox solution is just a more elegant way of going about the problem.
There are also 2 players in the house, so having a centralised file store makes sense.

Neither method of playback that I have access to has problems with pops, cracks, farts or anything, so as I have already said, I am rather bemused that a "recommended" piece of kit is proving to be so problematic.
If it don't work properly then it can't sound better than even a cheapo PC sound card :eyebrows:

Welder

05-12-2011, 22:45

Yup, it has been mentioned to HRT that proprietary asio drivers with the Dacs may be a way around some of the problems.
As I understand it they wanted to produce an affordable asynchronous Dac that worked with drivers native to the OS.
Despite the hiccups here and elsewhere, it seems they have succeeded. If the product was the disaster some of these and other forum posts suggests then I doubt it would be selling as well as it does. If you are a review reader it is hard to find a bad one and each HRT model has performed extremely well against what some might see as stiff competition.
Take this review for example.
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/usbdacs2/1.html

I can’t think of many pieces of equipment that don’t have user related problems and this is the point I’ve tried to make. I can’t say the problems reported here on AoS are isolated, but when one considers the volume of sales compared to many other Dacs and the wide user range and their even wider computer abilities then I think HRT have done pretty well.

(I’m going to want paying from HRT at this rate :eyebrows: )

brian2957

05-12-2011, 22:49

This thread has been an education , keep it up chaps very interesting. I fully intend going down the same road

as the guys here .

Thanks for passing on years of experience John.

Reid Malenfant

05-12-2011, 22:51

(I’m going to want paying from HRT at this rate :eyebrows: )
Hormone Replacement Therapy John?

:eyebrows:

Damn I just hope that the posters get their systems sorted, on another note I have a HiFace arriving soon, hope this isn't too much bother :eyebrows:

Rare Bird

05-12-2011, 23:09

However this Topic is making this item look i can tell you all there is no issues what so ever at this end, never has been regardless of the many different PC's /Laptops ive used with it.

It's a brilliant item that i would not have recommended if i'd have encountered an issues.

Welder

05-12-2011, 23:12

Hormone Replacement Therapy John?

:eyebrows:

Damn I just hope that the posters get their systems sorted, on another note I have a HiFace arriving soon, hope this isn't too much bother :eyebrows:

Yes please Mark and a big bag of valium if that’s the best on offer :eyebrows:

The Hi Face isn't without issues either apparently ;)

Reid Malenfant

05-12-2011, 23:18

Yes please Mark and a big bag of valium if that’s the best on offer :eyebrows:
Ah, sounds like a good deal, I remember it well.... On second thoughts I don't remember a thing :scratch: Valium, whassat :cool:

Trust me the HiFace must be better than my present USB-S/PDIF option :eyebrows:

I guess I'll find out soon enough though ;)

Alex_UK

05-12-2011, 23:22

Well over an hour with the Vista/MediaMonkey/WASAPI configuration and not a pop or click has been heard... (I believe you use Media Monkey, Andre?) I'm not saying I'm sorted, yet... :)

In fairness, though, it has only been the IBM ThinkPads that haven't satisfactorily worked at all - I'm a lazy sod so I've given up there, and have the luxury of swapping kit about, but it did work fine on my wife's Dell D620 (it was just me buggering it up that made me think I'd best leave it alone! :lol:)

I didn't like Media Monkey to start with, but now I've had a play around I think I prefer it to Foobar - so maybe a win win situation. :)

Welder

05-12-2011, 23:31

Great Alex, phew. :lolsign:

I must admit I didn’t like Media Monkey that much at first. Out of the easy to set up and use Windows music players if I wasn’t so comfortable with foobar I would probably use MM.
An interesting comparison is rips done with Media Monkey and say EAC played back through foobar. I’m prolly going further up the barking subjectivists tree but I could swear they sound different to an EAC rip :scratch:

It is worth stripping out a laptop once you’ve got to like or not the HRT. Some will say it doesn’t make any difference; I disagree :eyebrows::doh:

Stratmangler

05-12-2011, 23:48

I must admit I didn’t like Media Monkey that much at first. Out of the easy to set up and use Windows music players if I wasn’t so comfortable with foobar I would probably use MM.
An interesting comparison is rips done with Media Monkey and say EAC played back through foobar. I’m prolly going further up the barking subjectivists tree but I could swear they sound different to an EAC rip :scratch:

According to Wiki they've introduced secure ripping with MM4, so if you're talking an earlier version then they possibly do sound different to an EAC rip.

Welder

06-12-2011, 00:15

If you’ve been reading this thread and are considering an HRT Dac then this may be of interest.

USB power supply

Tell most audiophiles of my generation that a USB Dac with galvanic isolation and asynchronous transfer doesn’t transfer computer generated noise into the analogue stage and jitter is dependant on the Dac clock and has little to do with cables and computers they just don’t believe you

Now I know many audiophiles would rather look at pictures of racks of impressive looking boxes than read a lot of boring specifications so I have tried to keep the links relevant and hopefully informative

File based audio and in particular USB power isn’t without its problems though and depending on the make of the computer and which type of USB implementation it has determines the amperage and voltage you will be able to draw for a particular device from a particular port.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
http://www.pcug.org.au/boesen/USB/USB2.htm

My HRT Pro uses USB 1.1, draws 350mA and outputs 4.5VRMS and is asynchronous.
I’ve never been quite sure whether it’s the 100mA packet draw problem or the closeness of the Voltage to the max available for USB (5V nominal 4.75 to 5.25) but the fact is the HRT Pro Dac sounds noticeably better when powered from an independent USB hub and so imo does the HRT 11+

I read in a review of the HRT Pro (rather comical given the guy was assessing a pro audio fully balanced Dac linked to an amp that only had balanced connections and not a proper balanced audio circuit not to mention his problems with getting the computer to recognize the Dac )
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hrt2/pro.html
(Don’t you just love Hi Fi reviewers)

However, it did set me off on a quest for a non computer based USB power supply.

I started off with a mains powered linear, but poorly regulated, wall wart USB hub.
This did give an improvement in sound from both the HRT11+ and Pro but the hubs voltage fluctuated from 3.4 V to 6.8V and barely managed 3.6mA!

It wasn’t quite as badly done as this
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._Internals.jpg
I very much doubt this would supply 500mA and 5Volts to all the sockets should you plug in more than one peripheral.
What the above does show is in theory at least, the possibility exists to directly connect a 5V supply to an adapted cable or plug.

After some fairly extensive research I came across this and bought a full kit.
http://www.circuitsathome.com/produc...usb-interfaces

There is also this,
http://diyparadise.com/shop/index.ph...roducts_id=124
Unfortunately this (circuitsathome) has a mini switch mode regulator on the board and given my soon to be connected dedicated power supply, I don’t really want switch modes possibly feeding noise back into the dedicated line. There is a way to bypass the supply on the board
http://www.circuitsathome.com/mcu/us...isolator-board
This is more like it, but it still needs a wall wart and case although I can’t see why a better ac supply couldn’t be connected.

I assumed unlike a remote hard drive or an amp the current drawn by the HRT is going to be fairly constant. If I provide twice the required current available then all I need is a supply as close to 5V (USB has a + and – 10% tolerance) as I can make.
You could of course buy such a PS.
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page7.html

This makes an interesting read.
http://www.dxing.info/equipment/wall_warts_bryant.dx
I could knock that up using a wall wart

I also considered something like this
http://www.circuit-finder.com/catego...al-hard-drives

If you can wait a while
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/power/placid.aspx
which does look to be very good quality and very reasonably priced
(The Dac is bloody brilliant by the way)

This looked more like it
http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-C...ransformer.htm

I had a few schottky diodes. I also happened to have a 230V input 7 volt 1.2 amp output transformer salvaged from a valve amp. You could probably manage with a good quality 230V/6V and still get 5V out of the above circuit if you pick the regulator carefully. As with everything the better quality the components and the tighter they are toleranced the more chance you have of producing something to the desired specification.
I used Rubycon ZA caps for the 47uF values and Panasonics for the 10000uF which I already had. I used the regulator suggested in the text. I hard wired everything on a piece of tufnol board with the intention to improve my temporary heat sink arrangement once I had tested the project and picked an enclosure.

I didn’t really want yet more USB connectors in the data path so after a bit of careful surgery on the circuitsathome ADUM board I was left with what they sell as the Isolator only kit suitable for direct 5V input but without the USB connectors.
I decided to adapt a 1.8 metre Belkin Gold USB (dontcha just love Belkin, you wouldn’t want to be doing this with your Wireworld Starlight ) and cut out the centre of the cable. For my arrangement, B plug end cut at 150mm and 500mm on the A plug end leaving an extra 50mm of shield at each. I then soldered D+, D- and power wires directly to the board and joined the shield and connected up the power supply using a single twisted pair of Cat6.

USB hub controllers are a bit fussy about the order things are plugged in (more info about this on ciruitsathome Faq) but as long as I plugged in a live B plug into the Dac the controller recognized the HRT and music was forthcoming.

Right, for you regular AoS readers I want you to bear something in mind here, my name is John, not…………………….
Ferkin marvelous, not quite night and day but definitely getting on for dawn and dusk
I knew the HRT liked a more voltage and current than my laptop or PC seems to be able to feed it to really shine but I hadn’t expected such a noticeable improvement with the better quality power supply and ADUM chip combo given the already excellent noise rejection of all the HRT’s.
I’ve tried it with batteries and it didn’t sound quite as good.
I’ve tried using just a wall wart and that didn’t sound as good either.

These ADUM boards are excellent if you have a USB Dac that isn’t particularly well designed regarding noise rejection and a great many aren’t. Plus, you have the option of greatly improving the power supply off board.
I tried it out on a mates USB NOS Dac and had to wrestle the cable and PSU from him on his way out.

Okay, once I had got it all in a small enclosure (I used a bit of capped copper pipe covered in heat shrink in the end) connected the cable shield to the box and got ferules sticking out in three places it’s a pretty odd looking USB cable.
If you’re a terminal USB cable swapper you’re a bit stuffed on this one but if you bought a decent async Dac with an isolator in the first place you wouldn’t have to piss about with the cables anyway

This may all be too much agg but what I want to suggest is that for the HRT 11+ and the Pro at least a Linear, independent 5V supply might prove a decent sonic investment.

I’m about to try in my music server (when I’ve saved up a few quid hopefully) one of Paul Hynes 5V supplies to provide substitute USB power, which have an excellent reputation here. I hope he won’t mind me mentioning he can supply just the board with a small variation in amperage which could prove ideal for the HRT’s which works out cheaper than the cased version.

Tim

06-12-2011, 01:31

Well I have been playing some more and I used a clean test hard drive which I installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 on from a backup image - nothing on there at all, apart from the latest updates.

Next I installed the HRT Music Streamer II + and configured as per the installation instructions on the HRT website: http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/pdf/vista_win_7_setup.pdf (very easy)

I then downloaded ASIO4ALL 2.10 http://www.asio4all.com and installed the ASIO .dll driver for Windows.

Next I downloaded and installed JRiver Media Center 16 http://www.jriver.com (free 30-day trial download) and configured the 'Playback Options' for Asio4all - these setup instructions can be found on the Ayre.com site http://www.ayre.com/usb-jriver_setup_vista.htm

Setting up ASIO4ALL in Win 7 and JRiver is easier than Foobar IMO. Then I imported my FLAC music library into JRiver.

So what happened.......... well, once I had set the buffering correctly, perfect stutter free and glorious sound from the HRT :)
I'm listening to Alison Krauss and Union Station right now and this is indeed a splendid DAC. So it is possible to install this without a glitch under the above circumstances and I can confirm you can also use it with Foobar and WASAPI, but that is a little trickier, or at least it was on my first attempts - but it's worth the effort. I guess the positive thing that has come out of this thread, is that a number of us file based audio boys have tried it, some have had a problem for others it's been a breeze, but ultimately all the conflicts have been resolved and we have all without exception been impressed by the sound quality and as John says, it's not the DAC it's either the computer you are trying to use it with or the user, but we all have it working now. Additionally, if required HRT give very prompt technical support via email should you need it. However, I do think HRT could perhaps provide more information with the unit for people who may experience problems, as they must be aware of this themselves, or at least an acceptance that some installations can be problematic and offer advice upfront?

This confirms it will work with JRiver, Foobar and Media Monkey on a Windows platform - I think MAC users just plug it in :rolleyes:. John has it working with Linux, so that pretty much covers all the common bases I reckon. Like Alex, I have also learnt from the experience and may well move over to JRiver from Foobar, which I have always liked but never really bothered to try out too much. The HRT certainly likes it with ASIO4ALL ;)

I'm now going to have a read through your post John, some very helpful and informative information there, so thanks.

:cool:

Welder

06-12-2011, 01:36

That’s great Tim. I am really pleased you’ve got it sorted and even more pleased you like the Streamer. :)

Rare Bird

06-12-2011, 01:39

I knew you'd master it Tim, well done.. :)

Tim

06-12-2011, 01:50

I knew you'd master it Tim, well done.. :)
I actually had it cracked over the weekend with Foobar, but to be honest I wasn't convinced I was getting the best out of it with that configuration. I'm not able to do a Pepsi challenge right now, but the mere fact it was a totally trouble free installation with JRiver and ASIO4ALL makes me 'think' it sounds better - it certainly seems like it right now, but that could just be psychological!

There was no way I was going to let it beat me, despite me wanting to stamp on it at first :lol:

It's bloomin' luvverly :)

Tim

06-12-2011, 16:11

Well just for my own satisfaction on my main PC's test hard drive (with fresh copies of Windows 7 each time), I have without issue run the HRT with Foobar ASIO4ALL and WASAPI and JRiver Media Center with ASIO4ALL. I haven't bothered with Media Monkey as both Alex and André have run the HRT with them successfully and this does apparently support ASIO4ALL. However, I have not managed it yet with my custom build music server, which still has the same problem, low distant sounding volume and stuttering issues - they are not friends yet. So this is either a hardware conflict or a power issue, as I use a fanless external power brick for a PSU, so it could well be that. But it's also possible there is a software component missing, as I have been very aggressive in cutting out all non-essential Windows elements and drivers.... I will resolve it, but it may take awhile as I'm not in any rush, due to the fact the HRT is primarily intended for my headphone set-up, but that may change :eyebrows:

I'm going to take a look at your USB power John as I like the idea of that anyway.

I wanted to do this to add balance to the thread, in case people mistakenly though the DAC was likely to be troublesome. For those that don't know, my music server is custom built and a very stripped down Windows PC, which does nothing other than play music. It's operated remotely via my network and has no mouse, screen or keyboard. It was configured with Foobar/WASAPI in mind, so everything that those two didn't need has either been un-installed or disabled. So my issues are likely to be very unique to my particular installation. I have no idea about Alex's IBM issue, but he uses the HRT successfully with his other laptop.

Also many thanks again to John (Welder) for his constant encouragement (and occasional lashings :spank:), as I wouldn't be where I am now without his input.

It's all good folks :)

Alex_UK

06-12-2011, 21:13

Also many thanks again to John (Welder) for his constant encouragement (and occasional lashings :spank:), as I wouldn't be where I am now without his input.

+1 :thumbsup:

Welder

07-12-2011, 13:33

Thank you Alex, Tim and Brian for the appreciation :)
I’m going to lay of some of the blame for any sore bums on Andre; he started it and I’ve rarely needed any encouragement to rant on endlessly about my interests :lolsign:

I’m wondering if there is any particular reason why you have Win7 on your server Tim given you are using asio4all in preference to WASAPI.? Imo Win XP is not only easier to strip but is less demanding on system resources.
If you’re going to struggle with a new OS it may as well be with something that will reap long term rewards and that has to mean Linux.
I want to hear what you think of the HRT 11+ compared to the Rega through your lovely Harbeths.

Tim

07-12-2011, 20:24

I’m wondering if there is any particular reason why you have Win7 on your server Tim given you are using asio4all in preference to WASAPI.?
There is a logical reason John, well to me anyway.

If you remember when I first built the server I had an SSD in there for the O/S and a 2TB for the music library. XP is not good at handling SSD's so I installed Win 7 with it's TRIM capabilities and for better compatibility with the SSD. At that point the server was configured with just enough to support Foobar/WASAPI playing music and nothing else. I later trialled the SSD against a cloned mechanical drive and for the life of me I couldn't detect a difference in the SQ and the extra performance of the SSD was redundant for just playing music. So I partitioned the 2TB drive, put an image of the configured SSD on there, pulled the SSD and put it in my Netbook.

So that's the only reason, I don't feel inclined to install XP and reconfigure the whole thing again, as I'm extremely pleased by it's sound. Sitting in front of and pulling computers apart at work for 8 hours every day makes me less eager to start doing it again when I get home - I just want to play music :)

However, I am curious to what an XP machine would sound like and in the New Year I won't be having much to do with computing at work, as I'm joining a new team, so I'll be more inclined to tinker at home. But at that point I may possibly go down the Linux route instead :eyebrows:

I do want to know what the HRT II+ will sound like through the server too, but it's a time and 'can I be arsed to do it' issue at the moment ;)

Welder

07-12-2011, 21:05

Ah, I see, not that I had any real problems with SSD and XP.
If my memory serves me it was just a matter of using plenty of Ram and configuring Swap File.
Anyway, I’m not suggesting XP will sound any better than Win7, it’s just for me at least, my interest in Win7 was the rearranged audio stack and WASAPI.
Once I found WASAPI didn’t sound any better than asio4all with my preferred Windows config and Dac I lost interest and ordered in the tranquilizers required for Linux. :doh:

It’s just you’ve got two Dacs now I believe and I have yet to hear anyone I remotely trust who had made a direct comparison between the HRT 11+ and the Rega with file based music. So, purely selfish motives basically.

I think you will hear a difference between Linux and Windows (any issue) but I cried blood trying to get everything to work :mental:

Tim

09-12-2011, 00:34

Once I found WASAPI didn’t sound any better than asio4all with my preferred Windows config and Dac I lost interest
That's been my experience too and as I wanted to run a 64bit O/S then it made sense to use Win7 on the server. I also really like the networking capabilities of Win7, which also made sense as I operate the server remotely.

It’s just you’ve got two Dacs now I believe and I have yet to hear anyone I remotely trust who had made a direct comparison between the HRT 11+ and the Rega with file based music. So, purely selfish motives basically.
I will be doing this very thing at some point John, but my time is limited for 'fiddling' right now. I am starting a new job and moving in January, so will be busy up to then will mindless stuff like packing :( In truth I'm not expecting the HRT II+ to better the Rega DAC, not now I have the Brio-R - these two work beautifully with the Harbeth's (thanks to recommendations from hifi_dave and Alex), but you never know? So I will update this thread when I have compared the two being fed from an identical source, won't be till 2012 though ;)

Patoufrench

11-12-2011, 22:51

I changed my AOP LME49860 HRT. It's great! It is equivalent to a high-end DAC.

Welder

12-12-2011, 22:14

I changed my AOP LME49860 HRT. It's great! It is equivalent to a high-end DAC.

A bit more information would be good David. :)

Patoufrench

13-12-2011, 17:53

The problem of "DAC" unless $ 1,000 is the "AOP" output.
The HRT is good but the NE5534 AOP2132 pleasantly color the sound.
With the change of rendering PDO is less colorful, better details and we can compare it to the top of the range.

Here are the chip to change:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/22222my.jpg

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/167662-my-first-impressions-lme49860.html

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49860.html#Overview

Welder

13-12-2011, 17:59

Thanks David, I’ll look into this. I think the HRT Pro and 11+ have different output chips but I’ll have to check.
I take it this mod is for the HRT 11 ?

Patoufrench

13-12-2011, 18:09

It is a "HRT audio stream II" dating from the late 2010s

I think it should be different but the chip must be

Patoufrench

13-12-2011, 18:12

Here HRT PRO PCB : http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hrt2/pro_2.html

Welder

13-12-2011, 19:44

Cheers David. This might be an interesting tweak for HRT 11 owners.
At around £6 a chip it might make a very cost effective upgrade and the soldering isn’t too difficult where the chip is.

Tbh, I had not even thought about an output chip upgrade to the HRT Pro. I think I’ll have to investigate this a bit further.

DSJR

13-12-2011, 20:23

IMO, a Rega DAC eats a standard HRT Streamer II in terms of reproduction of timbre - using the same USB input and cable from Alex's laptop and it would be interesting to use one of these as a reference to listen to the changes made (and also to see how the Steamer II + does as well.

Patoufrench

13-12-2011, 20:37

Honestly, the sound of the DAC is difficult to differentiate the short term. It takes time with them and blind tests.

If I understand correctly, you compared the REGA to HRT?

Welder

17-12-2011, 14:19

I completely agree David, it takes long term listening and careful comparison even if you don’t go the whole hog with the blind listening test bit to decide if one piece of kit is actually better than the piece it’s replacing.

It took me a while to appreciate the differences between the HRT 11 and the HRT 11+.
I didn’t like the HRT Pro when I first got it. It’s a bit like re-capping an amplifier. The sound you got comfortable with can change. When electrical components degrade over time I think your ears adjust along with them. It’s not until the amp is restored to as new spec you notice how far things had slipped.

(I’m still trying to tell the difference between one amplifier and another when set up properly)

DSJR
I hope the Rega does a bit more than Timbre at 3 times the cost of the basic HRT :eyebrows:

Timbre: "the psychoacoustician's multidimensional waste-basket category for everything that cannot be labeled pitch or loudness" (McAdams and Bregman 1979, 34). :rolleyes:

DSJR

17-12-2011, 21:06

When you've been in the game and had "the training" as I had, you can hear things in seconds that extended listening only confirms..

The Streamer II sounds like a cheap, low powered solid-state amp. Rather lean and "flat" with minimal revelation of timbre, venue characteristics and sheer "welly" for want of a better word. The audiophile version may well be better as thise things are what it aims to tackle. The Rega DAC via its standard USB input, just sounded more "real" and like a proper top end CD player should, with clearly superior reproduction of instrumental timbre - even difficult ones like the "tone" of a rim-shot for example. The "sound" of a DAC is mostly to do with the output stage these days I reckon, and Stans Gator mod and the post above regarding tweaks to the HRT go some way to backing this up I think.

Welder

17-12-2011, 21:29

Tim

18-12-2011, 11:00

The Streamer II sounds like a cheap, low powered solid-state amp.
Hmmm, I've got an HRT Streamer II+ and a Rega DAC and I personally wouldn't describe the HRT as such. They do both have their own qualities and admittedly I have yet to do direct comparisons in the same system, but the II+ is none too shabby Dave and works exceptionally well in my headphone set-up. I certainly prefer it to the Caiman it replaced. However, I have not heard a Streamer II as a comparison?

What I can say though is it will have to go some to beat the two Rega's working together, as they produce some beautiful and very engaging music. The wide and realistic soundstage is especially impressive and really does sound three dimensional. I listen to music for hours on end now which is something I never used to do, so something is working. Mind you . . . I suspect this is mostly down to the speakers as I'm totally in love with them ;)

DSJR

18-12-2011, 12:03

Firstly, it seems that many who have been in the game as long as you don’t agree. :) Of course, they probably didn't have all that special training.....exactly what did that involve Dave?
Secondly I very much doubt your hearing has improved over the years and your memory certainly hasn’t :)

You’re an ex Hi Fi salesman Dave and people tend to forget that the skill bit is the sales and absolutely nothing to do with audio acuity.

Bloody cheek!!!!! :steam:

How many HiFi dems have you done, day in and day out for over thirty years, using all manner of different combinations to try to advise on the best course of action for the client to take? You have to have some sort of reference and the Linn tune-dem of old was a wonderful way of judging what aspects of HiFi reproduction work long term and which aspects cause you to tire of the sound and look elsewhere. The gear that "holds a tune" better is often the gear that people keep for many years because they involve you so well in the reproduced music. I can't explain it better I'm afraid, but this is what I heard when comparing the Streamer 2 to the Rega DAC, the "tunes" aspect here being noticed immediately in the tuning and "timbre" of the drum kit on the track we first played...

Alex_UK has the standard Streamer 2 and agrees with me on the sonics compared to the Rega DAC, as he was there when we made the comparison using his Streamer. This sample ISN'T the "PLUS" version, which according to the website, aims to improve the sonics for those where these things matter. The Rega just sounded like the output buffer stage had a proper power supply on it with plenty in reserve, that's all..

I dunno. Anyone would think I was trying to shill for Rega or something :D

Apologies to Werner, but I haven't heard the Shiit DAC but suspect this would have a lot to offer as well and at a lower price more comparable to the HRT 2 series, which really need a Vista equipped PC I understand, if dropout-free delivery is to be avoided.....

P.S. Regarding "tunes" etc, which many take the pee out of....... There's been some not always friendly banter on HDD about AVI's little active speakers (most are now sold with a sub or two, surprise surprise) compared to, shall we say, the "BBC Legacy" way of speaker design and music reproduction.. The AVI way, of which I have an early example in the similarly sized (to the ADM9) Pro-Nines seems to concentrate ones energy in the upper midrange, what little bass there is being clear, clean but with the bottom octave misssing, noticable especially on bass synth lines, where the further down the keyboard the player goes, the bass just disappears... On the other hand, one has the fuller, "warmer?" tones of the better BBC-legacy models, which have a depth and "resonance" which makes tonalities so much more convincing and "real," the owners of these latter style of speakers seeming to keep them for decades and only selling if they have to. Glenn's products, which are justifyably popular here, involve you the same and so do Tim de P's EAR products with consumate ease. The bolt-up Naim 250's did but the CB era ones didn't, attacking you around the ears with "RHYTHM" instead (135's were excellent though at both aspects)..

I hope that goes a little way into where I'm at and just because I spent over thirty years dealing with "you lot" in HiFi shops, trying to sell you well matched systems that would last you for years hopefully doesn't demean me too much in your eyes...

Tim

18-12-2011, 12:45

The gear that "holds a tune" better is often the gear that people keep for many years because they involve you so well in the reproduced music. I can't explain it better I'm afraid . . .
I think that sums it up pretty well actually. I'm none too good at describing things that well, but the fact I can blissfully listen to my system for hours has to say something. I'm so happy right now that I'm in no hurry to compare the II+ with the Rega for extended periods, as I love the sound everything is making and I'm rather content. Likewise, I am extremely pleased with how the II+ sounds compared to what it replaced in my headphone system. The Rega has a very 'grown-up' sound, which seems more fitting with the component's it's matched with. This could well be different without the Brio-R in the chain, as they do seem to like each other, but that's not surprising.

I can see I'm going to have to hear the Streamer II now, to see what the difference is to the II+ :scratch:

As a final note - I was 'steered' toward the system I have with advice from hifi_dave and salesman or not, his advice IMO was honest, sound and very well considered indeed regarding the audio capabilities and matching of my system - we didn't spend oodles of time getting to where I am, I asked a few questions and got honest prompt answers which I trusted. He's a top bloke in my book, so one up for the Hi Fi Salesmen (well at Radlett anway) and I hope to one day shake Dave's hand and buy him a pint.

:cool:

Welder

18-12-2011, 12:55

I’m going to reply to you when I’ve got time Dave and when I can gather the patience.

Alex_UK

18-12-2011, 15:26

Alex_UK has the standard Streamer 2 and agrees with me on the sonics compared to the Rega DAC, as he was there when we made the comparison using his Streamer. This sample ISN'T the "PLUS" version, which according to the website, aims to improve the sonics for those where these things matter.

Yes, I would agree, that from my Sony Vaio Laptop with the same file and same software/usb cable, the Rega Dac sounded slightly better than the standard HRT Streamer II. The Rega Dac was on its own, not into a Brio R, either - into a vintage Crown pre-power combo if I remember correctly, as was the HRT.

HRT 2 series, which really need a Vista equipped PC I understand, if dropout-free delivery is to be avoided.....

Not quite true Dave - I don't think it is the operating system that matters, but more the hardware. I had it working fine on a Dell D620 running XP Pro, setup almost identically to my IBM ThinkPad, (tried 3, actually) and just wouldn'r "play nicely" - not dropouts as such, more like really loud static cracks and pops.

I'm now back to using the Caiman, with the Gator board reinstalled, which never got on with my Creek amp, but seems fine with the Brio R. Trying direct comparisons, the HRT Streamer II maybe slightly betters the Caiman, but it isn't a massive difference, and the inconvenience of losing my main laptop to be used as a music computer is too high a price to pay, I've decided. (And even though it works with WASAPI without the static, I do get the occasional hop skip or jump with the HRT (probably at least once an album), whereas that hardly happens ever with the Caiman. I'll hang on to the HRT for a while, for headphone duties with the Sony, but to be honest, I don't very often listen that way (once or twice a month) so will probably be sold off in the New Year and the money put towards a Rega Dac.

Alex_UK

18-12-2011, 15:29

The Rega has a very 'grown-up' sound, which seems more fitting with the component's it's matched with. This could well be different without the Brio-R in the chain, as they do seem to like each other, but that's not surprising.

As you say Tim, not surprising that the two like each other so much. As above, I think a Rega Dac will be on my shopping list in the New Year. :)

I can see I'm going to have to hear the Streamer II now, to see what the difference is to the II+ :scratch:

If I haven't sold it by the time we meet I'll bring the standard II along.

As a final note - I was 'steered' toward the system I have with advice from hifi_dave and salesman or not, his advice IMO was honest, sound and very well considered indeed regarding the audio capabilities and matching of my system.

All I can say is that hifi_dave is a bloody crap "salesman" if all he manages to get most customers to buy is the cheapest amp he stocks! ;)

DSJR

18-12-2011, 16:58

I’m going to reply to you when I’ve got time Dave and when I can gather the patience.

If you like, I think I can take it, but I'll ask you one thing if I may... When you modded all your gear (as most of it seems to be), what was the intention and how would you have described the words "better sounding for the mods I've done" in your head? For me, it is trying to suspend disbelief that the sound presented is merely a poor facsimile of what the musicians actually did in the studio or venue and obviously the mixing through desks filled with op-amps (I suspect) and tons of compression and eq added at various stages. What I'm trying to say is that the best compromised equipment, to me, is that where I can follow the musical lines in the background more easily without having to aurally "squint" to follow what's going on. In that respect, I just found the Rega DAC, in comparison with the Streamer 2, made the music easier to listen to and the production easier to listen through, that's all.....

After a while, I find I can listen to a nasty "Argos/Tesco" £30 stereo thingy and enjoy the music if it's summat I know, but if it's something "new," I really do need a decent musical sounding system to appreciate what's going on behind the leading instruments and/or singer..

By the way, the "tune dem" worked against Linn once I heard my first Spacedeck/RB300 compared to an LP12/ittok, and also when a GL75/K9 trounced a Linn Axis/Basik Plus with K9, since the Spacedeck and GL75 were far more "tuneful" and in the case of the Spacedeck, far clearer as well, the LP12/Ittok of the period sounding smudged and vague in comparison..

No more to add, I've probably thread crapped enough already...

Welder

19-12-2011, 02:52

To answer your question Dave. :)

I modify and build stuff Dave because it’s far cheaper and more interesting than buying the flavor of the month products and because I can tailor it to suit my personal preference in the type of sound I find comfortable to live with and the environment in which the kit operates.
As for any notion of getting a system that sounds even remotely like real music, well it’s a comical idea and when I start taking it all too seriously I pick up my saxophone and blow a few notes; that generally sorts it, and prevents me talking a load of bollocks about how near to live music my system gets. Add to this that I’m unable to hear much above 15kHz, certain harmonics are also inaudible, my current system is totally unsuitable for the rather small room it resides in and I’m allergic to Hi Fi sales people’s bullshit.

It’s a hobby Dave. I don’t, if I can possibly help it, attempt to describe the sonic characteristics of my system and when I want to know if I have made an audible difference I ask someone who has far better hearing than me, or get measuring.
I don’t do all this “timbre” and “transparency” and all the rest of the meaningless Hi Fi terminology. In fact, I don’t really do Hi Fi, I have a stereo and I listen to sounds through it. I hesitate to call a lot of what I listen to music. ;)
My problem is I know a bit about what gets done to recorded sound and I play an instrument and I’ve worked as an acoustics engineer and finally, I still can’t tell the difference between one amplifier and another correctly set up in the same system.
I guess I’m a total failure as an audiophile. :doh:

I may as well get this out in one breath so to speak.

I’m not disputing that the Rega Dac may sound better than the HRT 11. I haven’t made the comparison. The point I’ve tried to make is that I think the HRT is an excellent Dac for the money and a better value product than the most promoted Dacs on this particular forum :rolleyes:

My next point is, the Rega is three times plus the price.

I think I said to Alex in a PM when I heard he was thinking of buying one something like I found the HRT 11 easier to listen to over USB than the Caiman. For me and in my system I think it’s a better Dac and that’s about as far as I went.

Why you brought up your assessment of the HRT 11 compared to the Rega is beyond me.
However, given your comment regarding the HRT performing better with Vista, I cant help wondering if you had managed to set the Dac up properly;:eyebrows: basically Dave, its nonsense.

I’m not sure how Hi Fi Dave (Radlett Audio) got dragged into this but it was an establishment you (DSJR) worked at for some time on the corner of Langley Road that drove me to Radlett Audio in an attempt to get treated like I wasn’t some bloody deaf halfwit who needed guidance because I had the temerity to state that I thought my then Thorens TD160S with a Hadcock 228 arm and a Decca London Gold sounded better than the badly set up second hand LP12/Ittock (cant remember the cartridge) the arrogant tossers there were trying to sell me.

It is the fact that a system heard in a demonstration room will sound different in different environments that makes the “I’ve spent 30 years demonstrating Hi Fi” completely meaningless when making recommendations. It doesn’t matter how much kit you’ve heard. The only way to know if a particular component will fit in a system is to trial it in that system where that system will be used, listened to by the systems owner.
Add to this the “I recall from a few years ago such and such had this or that sound”; frankly mate that’s total nonsense too. ;)

If you can recall the sound of a system with that degree of accuracy then you should be able to identify that same system a few days later if you heard it………good luck with that one :D
Take the Amplifier Challenge Dave and ease the finances while you’re at it.

Interestingly only a very small percentage of musicians can correctly identify their own instrument when played back to them. I suggest that if a musician who should know the sound of his/her own instrument intimately cant manage this then the chances of you recalling the sound of a component from many years ago is non existent let alone state with the authority you often do, that it will be a perfect match in a system you haven’t even heard, all based on your years of training and experience I might add :rolleyes:

Let’s face it Dave, many here and on most forums it seems, write a load of bollocks making wild claims about their hearing and the sonic performance of their system.
I don’t mind in general, many of us come here for a bit of a laugh and sometimes to get some concrete information on the “how too’s” of system setup.
It’s pointless asking on audiophile forums which bit of kit is better than another and what should I buy.
Look at the posts here; there is no consensus and that’s because it is totally subjective.
Go to a different forum and another lot of self proclaimed experts will give a completely different set of answers. They can’t all be right.
All I would ask is if your going to write a load of bollocks as well, put that winking emicon at the end ;)

My view is we would all get better sounding systems if we decided for ourselves but most of all, completely ignored certain elements trade who it seems are still trying to tell us what to buy and how crap out hearing is, giving their years of experience as their sole qualification as advisers.

I can only quote a friend response to another salesman who gave a similar justification for his advice to your, “years of training and experience”. My friend’s response was “and I’ve shagged a lot of women mate but I still know bugger all about them and wouldn’t know a good one if I fell over her”.

DSJR

19-12-2011, 22:13

I've never said my stereo was any good for anyone else but me and I have no idea where the whole Vista thing came from.

When I worked at 101 St Albans road was 1974 - 76 so a long time before Dave W got going.

Fine, you seem to dislike dealers and the crap we all seem to come out with. I know where you are with that, but the cr@p you obviously feel I came out with above helped me to enjoy reproduced music even more since it was just a confirmation of what I did naturally in any case. I accept the HRT II is a lot cheaper than the Rega, but it would be inbteresting to hear what the "Plus" version has to offer in comparison, as the puff surrounding it seems to indicate a possibly inproved audible quality..

By the way, I'm glad you can hear as far as 15kHz these days. I should be so lucky :eek:

You've made me feel even more useless and irrelevant than I was already. Since my opinions and advice obviously count for so little and are totally meaningless, I'll watch very carefully what I post in future, in order to prevent your obviously restrained reply above happening again. There you go....

Reid Malenfant

19-12-2011, 22:36

Not all dealers go on sales, it's the salesman that can sell themselves ;) So here is one to back up Dave, I never had anything but a superb experience from 'Hifi Consultants' that used to be based in Cowgate Peterborough.

They'd let me borrow kit & even deliver it for me to listen to at no charge what so ever as well as give me time to evaluate it... No pressure :eyebrows:

I'm just seriously unhappy that the shop is no longer here & the nearest branch is in London now, New Cavendish Street I believe.

I do believe that there are dealers out there that prefer you to make the decisions rather than attempting to stuff the latest load of whatever down your neck. After all, at the end of the day if you aren't happy then you'll no longer shop with them ;)

Welder

19-12-2011, 23:34

Dave, do not let anything I write stop you posting whatever you please. :)

You have a great deal of knowledge concerning the equipment you’ve come across over the years and I have no doubt that many who visit these forums are grateful for what you care to pass on. I just can’t help wishing you hadn’t acquired this knowledge as a Hi Fi salesman. :doh:
However, that’s entirely my problem.

I hate it when the trade get mixed in with the genuine enthusiast because the flak I could quite happily lob at the trade ad nausea goes wide of the mark, as flak does, and not only is there a risk of upsetting people like yourself who I believe to be perfectly genuine but (forgive me again) misguided due to over exposure within the Hi Fi Trade old boys club; it also makes me look like a ranting lunatic and one of those few horrid people that AoS tolerates because they contribute and verge just on civil enough not to get banned. :eyebrows::D

I happen to like this forum, not because it’s a nice yellow colour in my browser, or even that the mods put up with me exercising my horrid side. I like this forum because of people like you Dave who contribute, even if I think some talk a load of bollocks most of the time. ;)

I’m not so insensitive to not realize Hi Fi has been your life’s work as well as personal passion, but unfortunately Dave my view of the Hi Fi trade in general is akin to my view of corrupt politicians, you do at least get the chance (so rumour has it anyway) to vote the politicians out but the Hi Fi trade seems continue largely unchallenged as the unqualified experts in the medium we use to listen to the most important feature, music.

It’s a bit like letting a bunch of money grabbing eunuchs with no hearts decide who should fall in love. :(

Anyway, I’m not entirely certain what HRT mean by citing the HRT 11+ as the audiophile version of the range.
I thought it performed better than the HRT 11 but nothing to make me go wow. Tbh, I didn’t get on with the HRT Pro at all when I first got it. I’m not sure if that was because I had to spend the next few weeks stroking and consoling my wallet for the massive content loss, or because I was still in that pink and rosy world of sonic expectations. :mental:

I will repeat that imo both 11+ and Pro benefit from a separate power supply but given my crap Hi Fi, my delight in ill educated and semi skilled tinkering and my apparently sub standard hearing this could be as much bollocks as the usual stuff one reads on audiophile forums. :lol:

DSJR

20-12-2011, 08:47

The public voted with its feet and wallets and fled the audiophile salons in the UK some years ago now and now shop regularly at Richer Sounds - down south anyway, the big chains left standing reminding me increasingly of Lasky's of old. Dealers who lent gear out for free and gave their advice for free - misguided or otherwise - have now gone under and the very few caring trade members left often work from home and don't rely on "HiFi" as a prime source of income, 'cos they'd have starved to death otherwise.............

The likes of Dalek Supreme Neil and I haven't worked in a HiFi shop for many years now and I only came to these forums because the gear I sold new back in the 70's and 80's is now regarded as classic vintage gear. I admit that all of it is now old and much is in need of a darned good fettling to bring it back to standard.. By the way, I was and still am a useless "salesman," my enthusiasm, no matter how misguided and ignorant at the time, being the reason for any success I achieved at work - the dealers I worked for didn't operate a "low basic plus commission" policy. Only once I'd left the home counties, got married and basically grew up did I start to analyse the dems I was doing a bit more - what is the object of the dem and what does the client actually want? Can I be a bit cheeky in return in recommendations? The B&O sales course I did (not hard selling at all) seemed to work in my last dealership for a while, as in the first two years I was there I helped to double the turnover (so the bosses told me later). After two disastrous years on the road (I said I wasn't a market trader kind of "salesman") I returned to my former employer as a part timer and it was a disaster, the market having moved into AV and "stereo" regarded as old fashioned for a while.

Why am I spouting all this cr@p? Justification? Trying to make people feel sorry for me? Hopefully not.. I should finish by saying that I've enrolled on a basic "counselling" course for the new year. Turns out that counselling is TOTALLY the opposite of what I've been doing all me life, since instead of advising (telling?) people what to buy or do in their lives (from my CAB days), one has to listen impartially, explore avenues and let the client ONLY make the decision..... can I do this? Time will tell, time will tell.........

Canetoad

20-12-2011, 11:54

Good luck Dave. I always like to hear your insites. :)

I was into cars in the 80s and that's where all my disposable income went. I had a hifi but it was never what I really wanted as I didn't want to spend the money on it. :doh:

brian2957

20-12-2011, 11:57

Good luck with the course Dave. I've been doing this 'hifi' thing for over 30

years now and have visited and bought from quite a few shops . I must

say that I met many genuine salesmen who were very helpful . Sometimes

I forget that there was a time when dealers were virtually the only avenue

for purchasing quality systems. For myself I only discovered the internet,

Ebay and the likes just a few short years ago . I only discovered AOS this

year .

It has all been an education . We all have to make a living mate and some of

us became hifi salesmen . I would have loved to work in a hifi shop with all

that new kit to listen to . You come across as one of the genine people who

worked in the industry . Good luck and have a merry Christmas.

Brian.

.

Patoufrench

20-12-2011, 14:58

Hello,

I do not have any follow-up, but some have the HRT and the Rega?
It would be interesting to make a comparison!
I listened, it was not long ago but no comparison

DSJR

20-12-2011, 18:33

I've caused no end of thread drift - sincere apologies to the OP - and to Mr Welder..

P.S. Just seen how much rail prices are due to go up and am reminded how much it used to cost from Tring to Euston - around £1100 for an annual season ticket in 1981 I think. Was earning so much back then I didn't give it much thought - yikes!!!!!

BlueEyes

20-12-2011, 18:56