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Ali Tait
17-11-2008, 13:13
Found this article and thought it may be of interest to some-

http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm

Marco
17-11-2008, 19:37
Excellent stuff, Ali! :)

Marco.

Ali Tait
17-11-2008, 20:10
Interesting for me was the fact that there are measurable differences when valves are used at a mechanical interface i.e. Valve mic,valve disc cutter of amp to speaker.Distortion it may be,but I like it!

Beechwoods
17-11-2008, 21:41
Very interesting article. I've been looking to learn more about the real differences between tube and solid state for a while. Ever since I learnt that 'warm' was a lazy and completely inappropriate adjective to describe valve driven systems...

Ali Tait
17-11-2008, 22:55
More like "fluid" and "natural" to my ears.

Steve Toy
18-11-2008, 02:02
... and other stuff like dynamic and vividly real.

greenhomeelectronics
19-11-2008, 20:10
Damn good article that, thanks for posting it Ali. It would have been even better if he had added in MOSFET comparisons as I have always thought of a well designed MOSFET amp sounding more like valve than bipolar, I have always assumed it is because you can design in a far higher damping factor with fet compared to bipolars. Would like yto know what that author reckons...
Dave.

Ali Tait
19-11-2008, 22:16
Well bear in mind it was written in 1972,so sand amps were still in their infancy really,though how their sound is described still holds true today to my ears.

niklasthedolphin
20-11-2008, 11:24
Nice little writing.
But let's not forget the MOS-FET as they started to use them with great succes again in e.g. Herron (http://www.herronaudio.com/m1specs.html).

They were used before with succes but was to often misused in crappy equipment which led prople to judge MOS-FET as crap.

"dolph"

Clive
20-11-2008, 11:41
Nice little writing.
But let's not forget the MOS-FET as they started to use them with great succes again in e.g. Herron (http://www.herronaudio.com/m1specs.html).

They were used before with succes but was to often misused in crappy equipment which led prople to judge MOS-FET as crap.

"dolph"
errr...maybe I'm not reading every word, the Herron seems to use bi-polar transistors. Mosfets can be good though, Alecto power amps were well liked.

Ali Tait
20-11-2008, 20:28
I liked the article,but I wouldn't say I'm a valve evangelist.I use them because to my ears a good valve amp sounds better than anything else.If I found something else that sounded better,I'd use that.Valves are not the most user-friendly items! :)

niklasthedolphin
21-11-2008, 11:19
errr...maybe I'm not reading every word, the Herron seems to use bi-polar transistors. Mosfets can be good though, Alecto power amps were well liked.

I'm sorry.

I actualy didn't read the site.

Either they did not update their homepage or the guy demonstrating the newest amp from Herron for me is wrong.
;-)

Anyway, MOS-FET CAN be good and sounding is somewhere in between Tubes and Transistors.

Lyrec, that made one of the top 3 best sounding and best built Reel to Reel machines ever, were using MOS-FETs with great result already in the 70's/80's.

And when it comes to Tube Amps, I wonder howcome so many people seem to miss OTL amps in their search for great sounding gear.

"dolph"

Togil
22-11-2008, 16:30
The very expensive Swiss Dartzeel amplifiers use Bipolar, the reason is given in an article on their website : they are faster and more linear, apparently

aquapiranha
22-11-2008, 20:15
I have tried both SS and valves. Each have their strengths / weaknesses, but I prefer valves myself.

doodoos
25-11-2008, 18:36
I swapped over from valves (EAR) to a darTZeel and haven't regretted it. In fact it has the fluidity of valves but is more transparent imho

Togil
25-11-2008, 19:26
Do you have both pre and power ? There is a new integrated which looks a bit more affordable especially after the reduction in VAT:lolsign:

Ali Tait
25-11-2008, 19:46
Well it's all subjective of course,but I can't help thinking that maybe some who have turned away from valves just haven't heard what they are really capable of.Problem is,you really need to listen to DIY efforts to hear this,unless you can afford Ongaku-like prices.A visit to the next Owston may open a few eyes perhaps.No,valves are not perfect,but IMHO,what they do well they do better than anything else.

doodoos
26-11-2008, 07:58
Do you have both pre and power ? There is a new integrated which looks a bit more affordable especially after the reduction in VAT:lolsign:

Just the power amp. I wanted something that would fit on the bottom of a rack, not too big or powerful and be my 'last amp' which at the price, certainly will be. I do like valves but not the nervous apprehension on switch-on. The dart does seem to combine the best attributes of both valve and tranny though.

Togil
27-11-2008, 07:48
One problem with my Quads is that if I play too loud they short the input which on a Dartzeel causes a fuse to blow which I understand is a pain to replace. I'm hoping that the new integrated doesn't have that feature.

Marco
27-11-2008, 10:50
With regard to valves and transistors, I think that people are obsessed with distortion and tend to lump all forms together as 'bad'. There are many different types of distortion; some is 'music friendly' and easy on the ear, particularly the type often produced by valve amps.

Also, it should be remembered that music itself has natural distortions present so these must remain 'intact' in order for music to be faithfully reproduced. This is one reason why many including myself feel that good valve amps are superior to good solid-state amps. When examples of both are properly designed, valves have the edge in my experience due to the distortion produced being more faithful to that naturally present in music.

This is why, IMO, more 'air and space' is heard around voices and instruments when valves are used, and there is often a sense of greater 'realism' and things being 'laid out for inspection', if you will. It's a bit like recording with and without Dolby noise reduction in the days of cassette tape - use it and tape hiss is cut (and some distortion removed), but so too is some of the music's dynamic range! What you end up with is a duller sound and a significant loss of high frequency information.

This is what I mean about different types of distortion: remove the wrong type and the accurate reproduction of music suffers. I'm being overly simplistic of course, but this is in general what I feel happens sonically with valve and transistor amps (or valve and transistor anything) when all things elsewhere are equal.

Marco.

Beechwoods
27-11-2008, 21:33
I swapped over from valves (EAR) to a darTZeel and haven't regretted it. In fact it has the fluidity of valves but is more transparent imho

Very interesting review of the NHB-108 Model One here if anyone's interested: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dartzeel/108.html

Marco
28-11-2008, 10:19
I've heard this before about the darTZeel, so no doubt it's a wonderful piece of kit, but so it should be for the price!

Doodoos, you've undoubtedly got a fine amp there. I would like to hear it against a top-notch 'bespoke' valve amp (preferably a KT88 push-pull design) using the best NOS components and valves to see what would happen :)

I rate EAR valve amps highly (my friend had a pair of 509 monoblocks) but they do have the tendency to sound somewhat 'dry' and transistor-like, in my experience, so it's perhaps not too surprising that you didn't miss the 'true magic' of valves with your change over to the darTZeel.

Marco.

Filterlab
28-11-2008, 11:27
It's darTZeel's styling that makes me chuckle; 'left eye', 'right eye' and 'power nose' - delightful! :)

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dartzeel/hero5.jpg

Togil
28-11-2008, 16:26
Someone compared the Dartzeel to Anthony's Soul amp in character

Marco
28-11-2008, 16:49
Interesting. Who is this "someone" then, Hans, and what exactly did they write/say? :)

That could well be the result obtained and if it is then the darTZeel will really be something special!

Marco.

Togil
28-11-2008, 17:33
I can't remember now; can you think of a reviewer who has a Soul amp ?

anthonyTD
29-11-2008, 21:46
Someone compared the Dartzeel to Anthony's Soul amp in character

now thats a comparison worth a demo.:):):)
back on track though, if i have to use solid state devices in bespoke equipment,[soul and soul-mate] then i prefer to use fets for the signal path as they tend to do more of what i like about valves than bi-polar, and so they should after all they are the closest devices character wise in the sand world to valves, thats not to say that bi-polars arent capable of doing a great job in the right aplications because they definately are.
the article was very interesting and it definately runs closely parallel to my own findings over the years.
anthony,TD...:)