View Full Version : Outputting 24/96 from Windows 7
Hi guys,
Please excuse my ignorance as my understanding of digital is fairly limited but I'd like to output 24/96 via USB to my DacMagic2, unfortunately when it is plugged into my PC via USB I lose all the 24bit options, why is this?
Stratmangler
10-11-2011, 17:54
Because the Windows default drivers can only handle 16/48 audio over USB.
The DacMagic2 is designed for minimal user hassle, so uses the standard Windows drivers.
Cheers Chris, is there a way to get around this?
Have a look at this article although it is about J-River/W7 there is some useful info there that may help
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Windows-7-Audio-J-River-Media-Center-14-Configuration
Cheers Andy. Had a quick browse through the article and I don't understand it fully to be honest.
I've just had a quick flick through the Windows sound settings and I seem to have two SPDIF outputs in the list but no standard SPDIF outputs on the rear of my PC. Is it possible that one of the six 3.5mm jacks on the rear panel is actually an SPDIF, and if so does anybody know which one? These are colour coded thus:
White - Pink
Black - Green
Orange - Blue
If one of these is an SPDIF output then it'll save me having to buy a new soundcard for now ;)
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 18:32
One may well be Dave, however it'll be an optical S/PDIF output... Sounds hard to believe but it's true :eyebrows:
Erm, really? How does that work then (I'm being ironic btw)? :lolsign:
Ok, please explain to the digital numpty (me) why this is a bad thing, says he whilst trying to force a digital optical lead into a 3.5mm jack socket :D
What media player are you using?
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 18:44
You get an optical lead that fits a 3.5mm jack socket & has a Toslink connection at the other end - simples...
I'm not guaranteeing that you PC happens to have this fitted, but they do exist & aren't particularly uncommon :)
Try setting Windows to Exclusive mode and use Wasapi.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC_Wasapi.htm
Ok, I've downloaded Foobar2000 and the Wasapi DLL file. How do I install it please?
Scrub that, I found a tutorial. The WASAPI DLL is now installed but I get an unrecoverable playback error when opening files... ^^
Find foobar in your program files, open the folder and you’ll see a components folder, open that. You’ll see other dll files in there, drag and drop the WASAPI dll file to the components folder.
Just to add to your misery you may find ASIO4all gives better audio than WASAPI.
You then need to set up foobar to use WASAPI.
This is still the easiest to understand guide on the net imo.
http://www.ayre.com/usb.htm
(welcome to the nightmare of file based audio ;) )
Have you set Foobar to output wasapi?
In the Foobar Preferences/Playback/Output dialog, select WASAPI from the Output Device drop-down list at the top of the dialog.
Yup, I'm outputting 24bit to "WASAPI: Speakers (2- C-Media USB Headphone Set)" but it is having none of it :steam: If I knock it down to 16bit it works a treat but won't output above 44.1. Using Windows own drivers I can output at 16/48 nea bother. This is becoming very tiresome.
I also downloaded Asio4all and placed the DLL file in Foobar's component folder. It is visible there but it doesn't appear in the selections window, unlike wasapi. Jesus, there's got to be an easier way than this to output hi-def audio. Perhaps it'd be simpler to buy a new soundcard :eyebrows:
p.s. The latest wasapi dll I could find is dated 2010, is there a later one and if so can someone please provide a download link as this version is optimised for Vista (yeuch)?
Or buy a Mac:lolsign:
That's a great idea... Oh wait, I already have a mortgage... :lolsign:
I'm a bit rusty on Foobar but I am sure when I used it, it showed wasapi>usb>2speakers in preferences, assuming you are connected via usb.
I am... There is... And it doesn't work either :doh: I used to have hair, ya know... :D
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 20:21
Back in the last ice age :lolsign:
I wonder if John Cleese's famous method of dealing with faulty technology will suffice here? Now, where is that Birch branch? ;)
Back in the last ice age :lolsign:
Cheeky bugger... :ner: :lolsign: :cool:
If you are outputting through usb to the dacmagic then someone has already answered this for you, it wont do more than 16/48 as it uses the windows drivers. Wasapi plugin still uses this driver, it just bypasses the mixer to guarantee bit perfect output as long as the digital volume is 100%.
When you say it wont play 48kHz, is it 48khz material you are trying to play or 44.1?
If you are outputting through usb to the dacmagic then someone has already answered this for you, it wont do more than 16/48 as it uses the windows drivers. Wasapi plugin still uses this driver, it just bypasses the mixer to guarantee bit perfect output as long as the digital volume is 100%.
When you say it wont play 48kHz, is it 48khz material you are trying to play or 44.1?
Ah, I understood from the Wasapi post that it bypassed the Windows drivers :eyebrows: Well then, that was a complete waste of 90 minutes :doh:
As for the file, it's a FLAC rip from SACD of Brothers In Arms and that's all I know about it. As I mentioned at the start of the thread, digital audio knowledge is not exactly my forte so I'm relying on those with the nouse...
The PC will happily output at 16/48 all day through the DacMagic using WMP and the default settings in Foobar...
Doh thats it the usb input is limited ! forgot about that "The DacMagic USB input does not support native high resolution files at 24/96." from Computer Audiophile forum
From what I have read the usb input on the Dacmagic is not to hot.
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 20:41
You'll have an incredibly difficult job of ripping any SACD without an early playstation Dave, so it may well be kind of incompatable anyway ;)
SACDs are DSD, not the same as CD or anthing like it in all honesty :cool:
Man I'm totally lost :scratch: I'm going downstairs to wind up the gramophone and play some Al Jolson 78's :lolsign:
What about the Caiman, does its USB input have the same restrictions?
I think the Caiman is limited to 16/44.
You could use something like a Hiface usb>coax converter which will give you up to 24/192 out.
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 20:55
I think the Caiman is limited to 16/44.
The Caiman will happily accept 24/96 signals ;)
The Caiman will happily accept 24/96 signals
Not on the usb input though which is the op's concern.
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 21:00
The Caiman hasn't got a USB input ;) Just 2 x S/PDIF coaxial & 2 x S/PDIF Toslink...
E2A:- Maybe I'm thinking of the Caiman + though, so many models & so little time :eyebrows:
According to the manual it has :eek:
http://www.beresford.me/mainsite/downloads/TC-7520_Instructions.pdf
Reid Malenfant
10-11-2011, 21:19
That's not the Caiman +
See what I'm saying, too many models... I had a Caiman + :doh: No USB ;)
I'll shut up now...
Yup, I can confirm the Caiman does indeed have a USB input, either that or my PC and Caiman have been using a psychic link to play my digital files for the last 9 months ;)
I believe you are correct about the Caiman+ not having USB connectivity though Mark...
Dave there are limitations on data transfer rates over USB at both Dac end and computer end.
What these limitations are depends on the OS and the USB receiver in the Dac.
Most computers will output higher resolutions over SPDIF.
The Caiman and Dac Magic are both limited to 16/48 over USB I believe.
If you wish to play higher resolution files through what you have you need to use SPDIF.
Ideally, if you’re seriously thinking about decent quality higher resolution audio using USB you would be better off changing Dac and OS imo.
Looks like a hiface or MF V-Link is your best bet or sell both dacs and get one with a async hi-res usb input.
Brothers In Arms SACD is a Hybrid - two layers, one SACD, one CD - if you ripped it using any "normal" method you will only have ripped the CD layer - SACD is virtually impossible to rip... Sorry to add to your woes, Dave! :lol:
Oh dear, he's prolly smashing stuff up as i type :(
Wha... ? Oh sorry, I fell into a protective, stress free coma :)
Ok, lets keep it simples shall we... USB is pants for HD music, I get that. So, it looks as if I've either got to buy a dedicated music streamer or buy a soundcard with an SPDIF output. Well, I've found the latter at a very reasonable price here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280758737385?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1373wt_1139), any thoughts?
Whoa! Where did you get USB is pants for hi res? :doh: :eek:
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
USB Hi res is unsuitable for the equipment you have but with the right equipment USB data transfer is imo and it seems many hi end Dac producers better than SPDIF for a number of reasons.
I really think you need to start at square one Dave before you buy anything else.
There are lots of threads here on AoS about computer based audio; read them and have a think.
Stratmangler
10-11-2011, 23:25
Whoa! Where did you get USB is pants for hi res? :doh: :eek:
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
USB Hi res is unsuitable for the equipment you have but with the right equipment USB data transfer is imo and it seems many hi end Dac producers better than SPDIF for a number of reasons.
I really think you need to start at square one Dave before you buy anything else.
There are lots of threads here on AoS about computer based audio; read them and have a think.
+1
Especially the bit about reading some of the many threads.
sq225917
10-11-2011, 23:48
lot of misinformation on this thread.
The Dacmagic only does 16/48 because that's all it's receiver chip is capable of, it has nothing to do with Windows drivers, which are mostly 24/96 capable anyway. USB class 1 allows for that data rate and all USb ports are at least compliant with that. You can send 24/96 to the DAcmagic all day long it won't recognise it via USB, it's not a driver issue, it's a hardware issue.
A Hiface and spdif cable into Dacmagic will alleviate your ills.
Cheers Si for clearing that up.
Dave.
If you intend on keeping your dacs and want hi-res music via usb then GET A USB>DAC CONVERTER
Or sell your dacs and get something better ;)
Good sound from usb comes at a price I'm afraid, the usb input needs to have most or some of the following
1.Asynchronous USB
2.Galvanic isolation
3.Its own 5v power supply(i.e. not powered from the computer usb supply)
Here are some budget options
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/V-Series/V-DAC/V-DAC.
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7 about £270+tax
http://multi-roomav.co.uk/peachtree-audio-dacit.html.
If you want to pay a bit more then the forthcoming Audiolab dac at £599 looks the dogs nuts.
Not so much by way of misinformation but a lot to comment on if you’re going to cover all bases.
Yes, most Windows OS will cope with 24/96 via USB, it won’t cope with 24/192 or higher with native USB drivers, hence the comment that the combination of OS and Dac receiver chip is what determines the possible higher resolution ability of the system.
Yes buying a Hi Face is one option but why when one suitable Dac will not only overcome the problems but possible give better sonic results?
There are many option unfortunately which is why acquiring some knowledge about the various options is imo preferable to spending yet more money and adding further complexity to the audio chain.
Imo USB offers more in the long term than SPDIF but many have got satisfactory audio using SPDIF, so for Dave, perhaps concentrating on getting the best possible audio via SPDIF is the more appropriate solution given he already has two Dacs.
Imo USB offers more in the long term than SPDIF but many have got satisfactory audio using SPDIF, so for Dave, perhaps concentrating on getting the best possible audio via SPDIF is the more appropriate solution given he already has two Dacs.
That's the conclusion I've come to as I'd like to sell one of the DAC's to recoup some of my recent costs. I'm not exactly flush with money just now so I'm looking towards a budget solution. I found a Sweex 7.1 soundcard with an SPDIF RCA output for just £16.85 here (http://www.airetechit.co.uk/e-shop/products.php?49397&livemode=1). I know it's cheap but will it do the trick? It's either that or a secondhand Asus Xonar DX2 , but they often go through the roof on ebay :eyebrows:
One more thing: Having listened to both the DacMagic2 and the Caiman I err towards the DacMagic musically, although there really isn't too much in it. As far as features are concerned, I gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts with these two. I gain greater musicality and connection flexibilty with the DacMagic and I particularly like that it has balanced outputs which gives me another slight upgrade path for the future, but I'll lose the use of my headphones for a while if I keep it and also the ability to employ the Caiman as an emergency pre-amp if the DR5 ever dies, a task which it performs remarkably well. Decisions, decisions. Can I phone a friend? :lol:
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 07:35
Good sound from usb comes at a price I'm afraid, the usb input needs to have most or some of the following
1.Asynchronous USB
2.Galvanic isolation
3.Its own 5v power supply(i.e. not powered from the computer usb supply)
Those are just scare tactics dreamt up by people who are trying to sabotage the sales from competitors who do not design their products that way.
Once you end up being a designer and start experimenting with what is claimed to be the best method, the above 'must have' recommendations' start to fall apart.
bobbasrah
11-11-2011, 08:47
Dave,
It has all been said here, but like anything unfamiliar, it looks complicated until you've done it. My problem is remembering how the hell I did it afterward, another part of the challenge of growing older.
Forget about getting a 3rd DAC as a PCI card, as it will be in the worst of all environments, and the card may very well have it's own restrictions. I'm very surprised your MB does not have optical out (Make/Model/Rev?), but if the objective is to add optical out, via USB is probably simplest and transposable.
For current and future solution I would second the Hiface USB optical out or equivalent device feeding your DAC. Never used one but it is highly recommended by many and seems to do what it says on the tin beyond what you already require.
If at a later stage you get a DAC able to handle 24/192, it can be optical or USB fed, you are covered.
Bob.
PS -You may very well find that the higher res files via optical may highlight greater and unexpected differences between the DACs.
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 09:36
What's the point and advantage of going from a USB to optical converter into the optical input of a DAC, compared to going from the optical output of a soundcard into the optical input of a DAC :scratch:? Except for the substantial additional cost and added audio quality hurdles, the benefits are questionable.
We are talking usb>coax converter not optical, how else can the OP get 24/96 from his dacs usb input if his dacs usb receiver does not support it?
Are you also saying the 5v supply from a noisy PC environment and potential ground loop issues have no detrimental effect on some of the low end usb receivers?
What's the point and advantage of going from a USB to optical converter into the optical input of a DAC, compared to going from the optical output of a soundcard into the optical input of a DAC :scratch:? Except for the substantial additional cost and added audio quality hurdles, the benefits are questionable.
Absolutely agree Stan, particularly as we're talking about a PC...far less 'moving parts' in the chain. :)
Dave, if you're on a bit of a budget why not lower your sights from the ASUS Xonar down to something like an M-Audio, I use an M-Audio 192 into a beresford via SPDIF (coax) with great success. You can utilise the M-Audio ASIO driver to bypass any windows Kmixer shenanigans...you could also look at the M-Audio 24/96 if you want to keep the cost down further...;)
Hi Dave.
I’m having trouble getting my head around the idea that you have a Win7 capable PC and no option for outputting SPDIF directly from the MOB.
Even my oldest PC Motherboard (Asus M3A-H/HDMI) has an option to output sound via SPDIF without using a separate soundcard.
So, first I would check that this is definitely not possible from your Motherboard. Most Motherboards don’t need a separate sound card to output SPDIF. At the very worst all I can see you needing if there are no SPDIF connections is a header and socket; a bit of manual reading perhaps (?)
Buying any sort of soundcard is imo a waste of money given the above. What a soundcard will provide is yet another Dac which given you already have two seems pointless.
Next I’m surprised you prefer the Dac Magic over the Caiman.
I can’t see the point of using a USB converter either. It will cost you yet more money, add further complexity and while it’s true it will give you the option of higher bit depth and sample rate using USB, I would argue that getting satisfactory audio out of SPDIF is a lot simpler than doing it via USB even if I have found and believe that USB can under the right circumstances give better quality audio.
My thoughts in general on this Dave are while you’re using a tower based PC to serve files to what are budget Dacs, worrying about squeezing the last bit of performance out of such a set up is pointless. The time to consider the advantages and disadvantages of various data transfer options is when you have say a laptop dedicated to file serving or a purpose built music server.
The motherboard box and manual are in the garage, I'll pop down and grab them in a little while as I am in quite a lot of pain with my back just now, that is if I still have them. As I remember it the mobo is an Asus P5 LGA775 somet or other, supporting Intel Core2Duo and Core2Quad CPU's. Mine sports a 3ghz e6850 Core2duo, 2mb of OCZ 800mhz DDR2 gaming ram, a Samsung Spinpoint 1tb hard drive plus 2tb of external storage and a BeQuiet 650w ps. Apart from minimal security software and Win7 x64 there is nothing else running on this PC as I have configured it solely to play music and movies.
Fancy a bit of DIY then Dave? :eyebrows: :)
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5BMXWiFiAP/
Assuming your MOB info is correct you have an internal SPDIF socket, probably a 3 or 5 pin but I can’t see from the pics I’ve found.
The easiest way is to get something like this and fit it.
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5BMXWiFiAP/
If you don’t fancy it any computer shop should be able to sort it for you.
If you fancy doing it yourself you need to identify the GROUND and OUT pins on the Motherboard (should show this in the manual) fit a coax socket into the casework somewhere and solder a wire from OUT to centre pin on coax socket and GROUND to the outside of the coax socket.
I may have this wrong, but don't you live near Mark Reid? This is something I know he could sort out for you with his eyes closed.
bobbasrah
11-11-2011, 18:12
Well done john, on the button.... Your second link is the same, but i guess you were pointing to " S/PDIF-out - This motherboard provides convenient connectivity to external home theater audio systems via a coaxial S/PDIF-out (SONY-PHILIPS Digital Interface) jack. It allows digital audio transferwithout converting to analog format and keeps the best signal quality. "
Ooops, well spotted Robert ;)
Try this link instead Dave.
http://www.frontx.com/cpx106_2.html
(must leave this multitasking business to the appropriate gender :doh: )
Ahem!!! I've been down to the garage to get the mobo box and manual. The mobo is an Asus P5Q SE and guess what? Nestled in between USB pair 5 and 6 near the top of the backplane is a... TA DA!!! SPDIF RCA out. I can't believe I've not noticed it before.... Gee, I feel sheepish!!! :lolsign:
Well then, that makes things a whole lot simpler. Firstly, will I get away with using one of my spare, white Belkin PureAV IC's for the moment? I think digi IC's should be 75ohm, is this correct?
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 19:39
Yes, 75 ohm :pat: No sheep emote :eyebrows:
I feel like a bit of a :dummy: just now :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 19:57
A happy dummy no doubt though :eyebrows:
Certainly happier than I was earlier, that's for sure. So, would I get away with using a Belkin IC for now or would it be better for me to be patient and wait for the new digi lead I have now ordered? It won't be here til Tuesday... :eyebrows:
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 20:29
Just stick the Belkin on & start playing baa baa blacksheep :ner:
:lolsign:
bobbasrah
11-11-2011, 20:31
Yes. 75 ohm IC. Done. You can play with esoterics or hang them by tinsel for enhancement nearer christmas.....
God did this stir up the septic tank or what........
Success!!! Wow, that is so much better... :mex:
I am getting intermittent blank spots during playback which I'm guessing will probably be down to jitter caused by the Belkin lead. That's fine though, I just need to wait for the new digi coaxial lead to arrive and hopefully that'll sort it. I'm sorry I put you all through a little hell there, I really hadn't noticed the coaxial out on the rear of my machine, probably because it was surrounded by a forest of USB leads :doh: Anyway, the PC and DAC are now talking to each other in 24/96 which was what I was aiming for. I have to say it does sound rather good... ;)
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 21:38
Success!!! Wow, that is so much better... :mex:
I am getting intermittent blank spots during playback which I'm guessing will probably be down to jitter caused by the Belkin lead. That's fine though, I just need to wait for the new digi coaxial lead to arrive and hopefully that'll sort it. I'm sorry I put you all through a little hell there, I really hadn't noticed the coaxial out on the rear of my machine, probably because it was surrounded by a forest of USB leads :doh: Anyway, the PC and DAC are now talking to each other in 24/96 which was what I was aiming for. I have to say it does sound rather good... ;)
I'll bet that it hasn't got anything to do with the lead.
Sounds more like a buffering issue to me.
I'll bet that it hasn't got anything to do with the lead.
Sounds more like a buffering issue to me.
Ah ok, I'll increase the buffer size then. Another thing, even though the PC is outputting 24/96 via Foobar and the PC sound settings, the DacMagic is stubbonly stuck on 44.1. When I initially set it up the 96k LED was lit. Is this automatic? Will the DAC set itself to whatever the settings of the native file?
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 21:52
Ah ok, I'll increase the buffer size then. Another thing, even though the PC is outputting 24/96 via Foobar and the PC sound settings, the DacMagic is stubbonly stuck on 44.1. When I initially set it up the 96k LED was lit. Is this automatic? Will the DAC set itself to whatever the settings of the native file?
It sounds like it's seeing native sample rates.
Does it change when you play a 96kHz file?
I'm not sure that I have any 96k files. After initially completing setup it was playing Brothers In Arms at 96k but after a few stutters it must have reduced down to 44.1k. I'm still getting some stuttering even though I've upped the buffer from 1000ms to 2000ms. Any higher ant Foobar refuses to play the file :eyebrows:
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it I am currently running from the internal HD, maybe the stuttering is down to the PC accessing the drive. I'll run off the external to see if that improves things at all...
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 22:05
No high res files, no hi res lock on the DAC ;)
Right, I think light is beginning to dawn :lol: I think where I've been going wrong is in assuming any HD audio file will playback at 24/96 regarless of how it was originally compiled. My guess is that I am very wrong and that all the digital hardware and software will look at the file, read how it has been compiled, then output it at those settings. My mistake has been to assume that through some form of pixiedust, the PC and DAC hardware would up the ante and output at max rez. Am I close here?
For example: I'm currently playing Zenyatta Mondata by The Police. Foobar is displaying that it is playing at 44.100khz and at 863bps. I am still experiencing stuttering at 2000ms buffer although not so regularly
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 22:22
You should have a chat with Will Dave, he uses something to upsample on the fly as far as I know.
I'm not that clever on PCs but buffereing could be a problem as Chris says, or there could be a mismatch between the onboard PC clock & the DAC clock causing an occasional dropout. I'm not sure how accurate the PC clocks are so anything is possible :scratch:
I might be off of my head as well, it's all relative ;)
No high res files, no hi res lock on the DAC ;)
Yup, I get that now I think. Basically, my HD is full of FLAC and Monkey Audio format files that I assumed were hi rez when in actual fact they aren't :scratch: I imagine, and hope, that the files are now playing back at 24/44.1 then. It's still a vast improvement aurally over how it was before, whatever the hell it's playing at ;)
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 22:40
16/44.1 I think you'll find, unless you have had Will on the line faster than light :eyebrows:
In all honesty I can't see or should I say comprehend how USB could beat S/PDIF even though that is compromised by the phono sockets & plugs... Does USB have an impedance standard? If not there sould be all sorts of reflections from misterminated connections. While it may be ok for file transfer as it's only ones & noughts, with audio it becomes critical about the timing of the very same ones & noughts to avoid jitter... Jitter doesn't matter in file transfer as you aint listening to it...
I'd go S/PDIF any day of the week over USB as at least the cable has a characteristic impedance so in that respect should be better...
You ought to read up about radio transmission & VSWR Dave, it will give you an idea about how reflections at VHF (which is effectively what a digital output is given it's square wave nature) & how they can mess up the loading. While many may dismiss it, I find some kind of correlation with reality as audio goes.
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 22:44
You could try upping the buffer again (you've got 16 seconds worth of buffer to play with), although the stuttering is more likely due to something unnecessary running in the background and hogging processing power.
You could download CCleaner, clean up your machine and registries, and stop needless programs from initialising at startup.
As to your FLAC and APE files being Hi-Res, they are, if you use MP3 as a benchmark ;)
You should have a chat with Will Dave, he uses something to upsample on the fly as far as I know.
I'm not that clever on PCs but buffereing could be a problem as Chris says, or there could be a mismatch between the onboard PC clock & the DAC clock causing an occasional dropout. I'm not sure how accurate the PC clocks are so anything is possible :scratch:
I might be off of my head as well, it's all relative ;)
OOPS, I can see all this getting a bit expensive. Might it be a good idea to invest in something that locks the PC and DAC clocks. More importantly, is there such a device?
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 22:47
OOPS, I can see all this getting a bit expensive. Might it be a good idea to invest in something that locks the PC and DAC clocks. More importantly, is there such a device?
I wouldn't go there yet ;)
Try what I've suggested.
You could try upping the buffer again (you've got 16 seconds worth of buffer to play with), although the stuttering is more likely due to something unnecessary running in the background and hogging processing power.
The only thing running in the background is the security software Chris. I suppose one option would be to knock the PC off the net and scrub all the security stuff off the HD, but then I'd lose my ability to stream.
You could download CCleaner, clean up your machine and registries, and stop needless programs from initialising at startup.
I use Advanced Systemcare from IOBit, which does pretty much the same job as CCleaner except it is far safer and easier to use. I've had some pretty terminal experiences with registry cleaning software in the past. I've yet to kill a PC with ASC. There's always a first time however... :lolsign:
As to your FLAC and APE files being Hi-Res, they are, if you use MP3 as a benchmark ;)
This is very true... :cool:
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 22:59
The only thing running in the background is the security software Chris. I suppose one option would be to knock the PC off the net and scrub all the security stuff off the HD, but then I'd lose my ability to stream.
Wouldn't be a Symantec product would it?
Nope, it is Microsoft Security Essentials. I didn't used to be a huge MS fan but I have to admit this piece of software is actually very good, I get less disk activity than I had using AVG. That could mean it is just sitting there twiddling its thumbs of course :D
Right, I've turned the defrag scheduler off, uninstalled the few bits of software I really didn't need anyway and stopped all the usual suspects from booting up on Startup. The system is now as clean as a whistle ;)
Is it worth turning File Indexing off?
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 23:19
Nope, it is Microsoft Security Essentials. I didn't used to be a huge MS fan but I have to admit this piece of software is actually very good. I get less disk activity than I had using AVG. That could mean it is just sitting there twiddling its thumbs of course :D
I've got MSE on my laptop - doesn't seem to hog too much machine, and keeps the nasties at bay.
AVG has become a huge bit of bloatware :doh:
OK, what's running that doesn't have to?
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 23:22
Is it worth turning File Indexing off?
Do you use the search facility much?
If not, get rid.
I can't say I do to be honest. It helped WMP to organise its files which was handy, but if I'm going to be using Foobar as a player from here on in I'll need to get used to sorting my music files manually.
Well Dave, I'm glad you're partially sorted at least.
Stuttering issues are more likely to be something gone amiss with asio4all if you are using that or the WASAPI set up if you are using that.
Last thought Dave as I'm a mite knackered and lost track, have you still got a sound card plugged in?
I was using the integrated soundcard on the mobo. I think I understand where you are going with this John, were you going to suggest disabling the onboard sound from the bios? If so, I presume this won't disrupt the digital output...
If you are going to use asio4all then if you have it working properly there will be a small green square with a white arrow in it on your task bar when music is playing.
Asio4all can be a bit difficult to set up.
I did provide a link to setting up asio4all earlier.
Win7 also has something called Hog mode which should ensure computer processes interfere less with audio output.
You shouldn’t need to alter BIOS.
It may be a good idea to disable computer sounds in your sound manager. However, from what I remember Hog Mode should sort all this out for you.
Ah, I have already done this John, it was suggested in an article someone linked to earlier in the thread ;)
Are you familiar with a Houston, Texas based company called SimplyPhysics? I'm currently considering their Byteline100 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-simplyphysics-byteline001-coaxial-digital-RCA-cable-/320574420228?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa3b97504) coaxial cable. It seems to be superbly engineered for the price
No I haven’t come across them Dave.
I’ll just say that I have never found a coaxial or USB cable to be responsible for stuttering or dropouts providing the cable met the minimum specifications and was kept within the operating length recommendations.
In my experience of computer based audio (and I’ve had quite a bit now ;)) stuttering and dropouts have always been the result of an improperly set up player or OS.
Most common causes of stuttering are either incorrectly set buffers or more likely system processes that need to be terminated.
No I haven’t come across them Dave.
I’ll just say that I have never found a coaxial or USB cable to be responsible for stuttering or dropouts providing the cable met the minimum specifications and was kept within the operating length recommendations.
In my experience of computer based audio (and I’ve had quite a bit now ;)) stuttering and dropouts have always been the result of an improperly set up player or OS.
Most common causes of stuttering are either incorrectly set buffers or more likely system processes that need to be terminated.
I'll attempt to get it sorted tomorrow John. I've been through the settings carefully a couple of times and I am fairly certain they are correct now. I'll post them all on here tomorrow and perhaps you can take a look at them. In fact, I'll take some screen shots of the settings, that'll probably be more helpful.
I also intend to swap the Dacmagic for the Caiman to compare the two. The result will determine which of the two DAC's will be staying. Incidentally, the buffer is currently set at 2000ms. If I ramp it up to 3000ms Foobar refuses to play the files. I couldn't get asio4all to work... :eyebrows:
If you’re having stuttering or dropouts Dave, before you spend any money give this a try.
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
Run the EXE file as you are playing music with the music player minimised to taskbar.
If you see the bars turn yellow or red and their appearance coincides with the dropouts or if the result box tells you that your computer is incapable of successfully streaming audio then you need to check what system processes you have running and start terminating them one by one until no red or yellow bars appear.
If your computer is connected to the internet and you are running a fire wall and/or anti virus software start there.
You can find all the information you need about which services you need for a particular application here.
http://www.blackviper.com/
You could download and run one their packages that will kill off everything except the bare essentials if you prefer.
What I would say is imo it is preferable to terminate services manually and keep a record of which services you do kill. This way when something you want like net access stops working you’ll know what to do to restore the service.
It is possible to have no yellow bars showing and with perseverance virtually a continuous horizontal green line. When you’ve got that you’re about as good as it gets without messing about with the BIOS.
Thanks a lot John. I'll post up some screenies tomorrow before I mess about with too much else. The chances are I've done something silly so I think it's best to rule out user error first.
It's all a lot more complicated than I realised but hey, it'd be no fun without a few small problemettes, eh? :lolsign:
EDIT: One other thing has just occurred to me, I'm running Win7 x64 in two gig of memory (Recommended mem for Win7 x64 is 4gb). Now, when I first installed Win7 on this system I didn't realise that 64bit Win7 used a lot more system memory than 32bit. In fact, on average there is only about 300 - 500mb free mem available to the system. That might be a little more now I have uninstalled or halted some of the very few background tasks that were running. It might make more sense to re-install Win7 but using the 32bit version. This should free up a lot more system memory. It is perfectly possible that the dropouts are being caused by insufficient memory...
Yeah the people that state file audio is all about convenience obviously haven't tried to set it up.
Every OS I've tried, every Dac, music player combination etc etc all seem to have their own problems :(
All i can say is that once you do get it right I very much doubt you'll want to listen to anything else unless you have a really top notch vinyl system.
All i can say is that once you do get it right I very much doubt you'll want to listen to anything else unless you have a really top notch vinyl system.
That's the Holy Grail right there, which is why I've yet to throw the whole bloody lot out of an upstairs window... :D
What are your thoughts on the Win7 x64 memory requirements I commented about, do you think it might a be likely explanation?
After some experimentation this morning the highest I can set the buffer is 2000ms and not a point more. Any higher than this and Foobar returns an error message.
Here are some pics of my settings. As far as I can tell all is correct:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/HDAudiosettings.jpg
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/HDAudiosettings2.jpg
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/HDAudiosettings3.jpg
I am now 99% certain that the problem I have concerns a lack of memory. I downloaded a 24/96 FLAC file of Vivaldi's Four Seasons earlier and when I attempt to play it I get the following error report from Foobar:
Unrecoverable playback error: Not enough memory is available to complete this operation (0x8007000E)
I think that says it all. The obvious solution would be to install another 2gb of memory into my computer however I am now unfortunately out of funds. My only hope for HD audio playback now rests on replacing my current Win7 x64 install with a fresh install of Win7 x32. This uses less resources and will hopefully free up enough memory for Foobar to play 24/96 files :rolleyes:
Hi Dave.
Well it was late when I read your posts and I had just finished a 25 mile bicycle ride in the rain and I wus fecked; so my concentration wasn’t at its best ;)
Yep lack of RAM may well be the root of the problem. I have to ask why on earth you’re running Win7 64 bit edition on 2 Gig of RAM. I’m a bit surprised it works at all :eek:
More RAM obviously would sort this out. But, you write your skint and I’m not sure that a change to the 32 bit edition will reduce system demands enough to overcome the problems.
You can however reduce the OS system demands by painstakingly going through system services and trashing any applications that make system demands, hence the Black Viper link.
The horrible but unfortunately truth is the best option with regard to overcoming these problems apart from increasing RAM is to change to Linux……………… :eyebrows:
Anyway, quickly moving on given your current stress levels, try the 32 bit and strip out the crap and see how you go from there.
Oh arr, one more thing just to depresses you further, I think asio4all sounds better than WASAPI if you’re sticking with foobar, they seem to like each other. :lolsign:
You can get 4 gig of ram for around £25.
I'd happily use asio4all but it doesn't work. I placed the DLL file into the components folder and it is present in the list in Foobar Preferences but there are no asio4all options to select. Again this may be user error.
I'm watching 4x1gb sticks of Crucial gaming ram on ebay, it's currently sitting at under a pound with 5hrs to go. I'm not silly enough to assume it'll sell for that, but I have my fingers crossed that I'll pick it up for around 20 pounds...
What type of ram are you using DDR2 or DDR3?
Good price here on 4gig DDR3
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-133-CR&groupid=701&catid=8&subcat=
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=BU-006-CS&groupid=701&catid=8&subcat=1516
Lots of others on that site.
bobbasrah
12-11-2011, 18:07
Check however what the MB can take in terms of type and capacity per slot. Sometimes it can get complicated, as I found out when Bios hicupped over having a higher speed RAM than the CPU could handle...
Reid Malenfant
12-11-2011, 18:13
Check however what the MB can take in terms of type and capacity per slot. Sometimes it can get complicated, as I found out when Bios hicupped over having a higher speed RAM than the CPU could handle...
Good point ;) This lappy sometimes doesn't like booting up so I have to pull the battery & power cord. Something tells me it'd be ok with 500Mb in each slot (old DDR stuff & originally 250Mb each), but I stuffed 2 x 1Gb in there...
Once it goes though it flys.. It's the correct speed, just may be too much of it :eyebrows:
bobbasrah
12-11-2011, 18:55
Same as my 5 year old Tosh laptop Mark, updated to 2Gb of DDR from I think 0.5Gb. No problems apart from the occasional brainfart.... It, and me....
The desktop I built from scratch thinking I was being clever sticking in 8Gb or ram only to discover for the first time that AMD's technology throttled the RAM speed. It hiccups occasionally on boot, but apart from the wasted capability, no complaints.
Ever since, I have been very careful to check what slots can be used, what the limitataions are for chip speed.... Hence the warning...
The mobo I'm using is an Asus P5Q SE and it's good for 16gb of DDR2 1066 PC2 8500 in 4x4gb sticks. The CPU is a Core2Duo e6850 clocked at 3ghz as standard (although I've had it up to 3.6ghz on air without any issues), and it can support a 1333mhz FSB. Its old but speedy ;)
Hopefully I'll score these Crucial sticks tonight which should solve my problems :cool:
Reid Malenfant
12-11-2011, 19:52
Hopefully I'll score these Crucial sticks tonight which should solve my problems :cool:
Fingers crossed Dave, Crucial or Kingston are some of the best as I'm sure you know...
bobbasrah
12-11-2011, 19:54
+1
Good luck....
If you don't win there are. some 4gig kits for £32 online.
Just spotted this ending shortly
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4GB-2-x-2GB-Sticks-Laptop-RAM-Memory-DDR2-PC2-6400S-TESTED-100-WORKING-/330640114653?pt=UK_Computer_Memory_RAM&hash=item4cfbafc3dd#ht_500wt_1113
Dave, sorry to be blunt but it's not ram you need - you're presuming too much. You will not get 24/96k lock playing 24/44.1k files unless you up-sample which you're not.
Back to RAM - Win 7 quotes 4gb min for the OS but even with 2gb short you can and will be able to buffer multiple parallel streams of small, say 100-150mb files at even 4608kbs forever and a day, 'on-top' or critical processes will be sidelined for this action, win 7 is a clever bit of kit.
My advise would be to clear your cache, find a true 24/96k file, leave the buffer settings at 'pre set' and you will have lock.
If you really feel the need to buy extra RAM, you'd be far better off buying a matched 4gb pair rather than slapping any old cheapo 2 gb stick on top of the 'other' in there - it doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid.
If all else fails and you're still stuck/stressed/pissed off, you could go the proven USB-Hiface-S/PIDF route.
Ant
Ant, you are a genius, I am a numpty and I am now going to dunk my head in a bucket of poo... :stalks:
There's still the occasional dropout but OMFGZ!!! 24/96 sounds fecking gorgeous!!!
p.s. It's ok Ant, I build my own PC's so I am well aware of the pitfalls to mix and matching even decent memory. Feck it, I'm going to buy the 4gb of Geil mem I spotted earlier, it's 35 quid with free P&P, BARGAIN!!! :cool:
Good o, glad it's working for you!
Truly sorry for the previous 'bluntness' but sometimes the simplest are overlooked in desperation for the goal ahead.
Regarding RAM, nowadays as you are probably aware there really isn't such a thing as bad sticks but more hardware/CPU RAM controller compatibility - unless you buy some ebay specials you onto a winner whatever the brand.
I've become a big fan of Corsair over the years - In my current combined rig I have 22 x 4gb DDR3 1600 8-8-8-24 Dominator sets (44 x 2gb) and not one has failed or had a single issue, yes they were expensive at around £1700 at the time but after many a blue screen due to Phenom/RAM issues with many a other brand - Corsair is the one for me.
Although all that's irrelevant but I do hope the Geil fixes the stutter.
Cheers,
Ant
Thanks Ant, I was becoming a mite frustrated. My good lady lost it with me earlier and threatened to throw the whole lot out of the window if I mentioned bit rates or increased resolution one more time... :lolsign:
Thanks Ant, I was becoming a mite frustrated. My good lady lost it with me earlier and threatened to throw the whole lot out of the window if I mentioned bit rates or increased resolution one more time... :lolsign:
Ha ha, no worries - I know where you're coming from, she's exactly like that too.... They just don't understand do they.
Anyhow, good luck with the RAM and keep us posted if it sorts it eh.
Cheers,
Ant
Ant
Just out of curiosity what do you need all that ram for?
Ant
Just out of curiosity what do you need all that ram for?
Indeed...I rarely see high memory usage during audio playback,(Edit; for example I'm playing FLAC & upsampling it real time to 24/96 in winamp at the moment, and it's using a massive 59mb of memory ;)
From a quick scan of the thread...there's been some activity here :)
Firstly my config is different, XPsp2, single core AMD, winamp, an M-Audio 192 soundcard, and my FLAC library is on a NAS accessed by a wi-fi dongle as a network drive.
Dave if your getting drop outs at normal resolution it sounds like you're experiencing some contention, but given you have a duo-core machine it shouldn't be process contention. Perhaps it's at the on-board soundcard, I presume you've set the windows sound scheme to 'no sounds', apologies if this has already been covered ;)
Check out your music player settings, in winamp there are options to set the player priority, I set it to highest, but then again you're duo-core so that should be less of an issue.
Could it be disk contention? Are your FLAC files on the system drive?...I doubt this is the problem but you never know.
I only needed to mess around with my buffer settings when I started using 24/96, highest buffer setting in my ASIO out from winamp, and the highest setting on my soundcard. 24/96 playback requires 4608kbps so its a big payload compared to 16/44.1 (1411kbps).
Mark mentioned I'd been 're-sampling' on the fly, which is indeed true I use FFSoX with winamp, I think there's a version for foobar too, it might even be built in...
http://in-ffsox.sourceforge.net/
...there is a bit more info on this thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9215
StanleyB
13-11-2011, 11:21
I have been using a laptop running W7 x64 with 2GB of memory and 1.8GHz processor for ages. No problems to report here.
The trick is to configure your PC for dual boot if you only have one PC to do everything.
Here is my own quick guide.
Allocate the 2nd boot partition for audio and video use.
Disable any services that are not needed. See http://www.askvg.com/windows-7-services-that-can-be-safely-set-to-manual/ for help on how to go about that and which services to disable or set to manual.
You shouldn't need a virus checker if you are only going to play music offline. So you can avoid installing it on the audio boot section.
Keep the network connection off if you have no virus checker running and don't intend to be streaming music.
Get a 500GB or 1TB drive for your laptop and put all your music on there if it can fit. That's far quicker than having it on a separate drive.
If you follow most or all of the above you'll be surprised how much faster your PC runs. You won't be crippled by any audio drop out either.
I have been using a laptop running W7 x64 with 2GB of memory and 1.8GHz processor for ages. No problems to report here.
The trick is to configure your PC for dual boot if you only have one PC to do everything.
Here is my own quick guide.
Allocate the 2nd boot partition for audio and video use.
Disable any services that are not needed. See http://www.askvg.com/windows-7-services-that-can-be-safely-set-to-manual/ for help on how to go about that and which services to disable or set to manual.
You shouldn't need a virus checker if you are only going to play music offline. So you can avoid installing it on the audio boot section.
Keep the network connection off if you have no virus checker running and don't intend to be streaming music.
Get a 500GB or 1TB drive for your laptop and put all your music on there if it can fit. That's far quicker than having it on a separate drive.
If you follow most or all of the above you'll be surprised how much faster your PC runs. You won't be crippled by any audio drop out either.
Hi Stan with regard to the dual boot option I suppose it all depends on whether one wants to listen to music at the same time as working on the PC. With the correct priorities, buffer settings, and ASIO I have no issues doing both...Ok except when I'm doing a very CPU intensive task, but that's rather rare :)
With regard to using the system drive for the FLAC library, it all depends on the disk architecture, if Dave's PC is IDE then you are correct, as its all a single channel, master and slave etc. (steady Marco ;))
However if it's SATA then one should take advantage of 'parallelism', keep your O/S, apps and swap file on the system drive, and add a secondary drive for the FLAC library. This will prevent the disk buffers from being flushed and will permit a steady sequential read from the secondary data drive.
In fact the optimum config would be to have a third SSHD drive dedicated to the swap file...but this is obviously overkill for the simple task of music reproduction ;)
As I said earlier my FLAC library is being accessed via a wi-fi dongle, at a maximum of 54mbps, 1/10 the speed of a disk drive, and I get no dropouts whatsoever, even using 24/96 the data transfer rate need only be 4.7mbps, ok perhaps that's cutting it fine, but I'm sure you see what I mean. :)
Ant
Just out of curiosity what do you need all that ram for?
Ah yes, I can see your point - My combined rig consists of a standalone development machine and ten render platforms (render farm) each with 8gb of ram.
Ant
Well, I’m totally confused now :lol:
I'm playing Keith Jarrett, Jasmine, 24/44.1 through foobar 2000 set at 24/96 with 1000ms foobar buffer (default I believe) and asio4all buffer set at max over USB on a Win XP OS using 512MB of RAM, 1.5GHz processor with no stuttering, or dropouts atm. :scratch:
Not quite sure what Ant was trying to say in his post.
I don’t have a drive set up for Win7 here but I find it hard to believe this isn’t also possible with Win7 using the Caiman and foobar without using an up-sampling plug in.
Exactly what bit depth and the Dac outputs is an interesting point.
Anyway Dave, you’re getting there. Somewhere in all these posts is the answer. I still think you've either got something wrongly set or the OS is making system demands that interfere somewhere.
Well, I’m totally confused now :lol:
I'm playing Keith Jarrett, Jasmine, 24/44.1 through foobar 2000 set at 24/96 with 1000ms foobar buffer (default I believe) and asio4all buffer set at max over USB on a Win XP OS using 512MB of RAM, 1.5GHz processor with no stuttering, or dropouts atm. :scratch:
Not quite sure what Ant was trying to say in his post.
I don’t have a drive set up for Win7 here but I find it hard to believe this isn’t also possible with Win7 using the Caiman and foobar without using an up-sampling plug in.
Exactly what bit depth and the Dac outputs is an interesting point.
Anyway Dave, you’re getting there. Somewhere in all these posts is the answer. I still think you've either got something wrongly set or the OS is making system demands that interfere somewhere.
Agreed John, it's only when you quadruple the data volumes for 24/96 files that one needs to tinker with the buffers...but that's due to me using an old knacker single core chip ;)
Also agreed about contention being the issue...:)
Well, I’m totally confused now :lol:
I'm playing Keith Jarrett, Jasmine, 24/44.1 through foobar 2000 set at 24/96 with 1000ms foobar buffer (default I believe) and asio4all buffer set at max over USB on a Win XP OS using 512MB of RAM, 1.5GHz processor with no stuttering, or dropouts atm. :scratch:
But are you getting 24/96k lock on your dac? I think that's what Dave was looking for?
Not quite sure what Ant was trying to say in his post.
Erm, which post?
Ta,
Ant
Well as I wrote, whether the Dac outputs 24/44.1 is an interesting question.
With my Dacs/players combo and the two OS I use most Linux MPD and Win XP there really isn’t a reliable way of determining the bit depth and frequency that gets sent to the Dacs or gets sent to the amp.
There are a few Dacs that will show this that give a reliable indication, Weiss for example but for Dave, until he gets a bit more sorted with file based audio I think he would be happy just to get uninterrupted music coming out of his speakers for now :lol:
Ant
Just out of curiosity what do you need all that ram for?
Headroom Andy. I hadn't realised until a couple of weeks ago that Win7 x64's recommended minimum mem requirement is 2gb of ram. Basically 4gb should eliminate any possibility of the system having to use its swap file, at least that's the theory. I thought about it last night and I should be able to recoup some of my losses by selling the existing 2gb of DDR2 800, 2gb of DDR2 533 that's sat in a cupboard doing nothing and also a spare 2.5" 320gb hard drive. Incidentally, I'm open to offers for the above.... ;)
Hi Dave,
I've just stumbled upon something - Your first post... "Dacmagic2" I may be wrong but I think the Dacmagic2 is limited to sample Rates of 32, 44.1, 48khz so maybe it just can't handle 96k and struggles to lock within tolerance hence the drop outs?
Ant
Well as I wrote, whether the Dac outputs 24/44.1 is an interesting question.
...indeed John, I'm running the SPDIF out of my M-Audio 192 into a Beresford TC-7510, what it does with it is another matter.
Using SoX I can set the re-sampling frequency to anything that my soundcard will support, in this case up to 24/192, with most stops in-between. This is reflected in the winamp display, and more importantly can be seen on the M-Audio control panel 'Codec Sample Rate'.
The DAC is supposed to handle up to 24/96, so it happily works with everything from 16/44.1 up to 24/96, when I go to 24/192...silence! ;)
That still doesn't tell me what it's outputting though, I just put 24/96 into it and out comes music...;)
Ali Tait
13-11-2011, 12:56
The AK4396 dac board I'm using has an led for 24/96 and above, so I know I'm getting at least that out.
I shouldn’t larf really but someone I know relatively new to file based audio was waxing lyrical about the huge sonic improvements he was hearing using 24/96 downloads over redbook. We went round to have a listen and it turned out he was in fact listening to 16/48.
We discovered that the KS plugin he carefully set up wasn’t in fact compatible and Windows default sampling process took over.
I think some people take the information displayed by the music playing software as an accurate indication of what comes out the sharp end. With foobar at least afaik, it reads the file type and displays that and doesn’t have a clue what goes on after that.
Just have to add that at least the vinyl enthusiasts don't have to worry about any of this stuff :)
Stratmangler
13-11-2011, 13:25
...was in fact listening to 16/48.
Most music DVDs have soundtrack at 16/48, and I've not heard a poor one yet,
That's not to say that there aren't any poor sounding ones, just that I've not heard any :eyebrows:
Oh I totally agree Chris :)
I struggle like f*ck to hear a difference between redbook and 24/96 on some recordings.
I don’t bother with Hi Res files much. Imo a well recorded redbook file sounds just fine to my ears. There are a few excellent examples of Hi Res recordings but in my experience they are pretty few and far between for my musical taste, or lack of it ;)
I’ve got some 16/48 files here and they sound plenty good enough through my kit.
Nah that's not it Andy, the DacMagic2 can handle 24/96, It's running at that right now as I listen to a 24/96 file of the Carpenters greatest hits.
I think I have identified what is causing the dropouts, and as is often the case it is something absurdly simple. I am using an ancient surge protected 6way mains block to feed power to my computers and monitor. I know I am going to get a huge telling off here, but this is plugged into a cheap and cheerful 10 way mains block which ultimately runs from the other side of the room. This Heath Robinson set up is necessary as my partner also needs to be able to use and charge her lappy, mobile phone etc on her side of the room (As I've mentioned before, my system is installed in our bedroom for reasons I've gone into before elsewhere.). The dropouts occur when I am using my laptop off of it's power supply (if I unplug the power lead from the laptop there are no dropouts), therefore I am 99% certain noise is being broadcast upstream into the mains supply of the desktop PC I use for playing music. Thankfully I still have the Tacima I once to used to deliver power to my system, so I will try swapping out the cruddy mains block for the Tacima asap to see if it makes a difference.
I give up Dave.
You’re killing me :lolsign:
Oh I totally agree Chris :)
I struggle like f*ck to hear a difference between redbook and 24/96 on some recordings.
I don’t bother with Hi Res files much. Imo a well recorded redbook file sounds just fine to my ears. There are a few excellent examples of Hi Res recordings but in my experience they are pretty few and far between for my musical taste, or lack of it ;)
I’ve got some 16/48 files here and they sound plenty good enough through my kit.
Having just finished listening to the 24/96 version of The Carpenters Greatest Hits, an album I also own on CD btw, demonstrated your point perfectly John. Should I ever walk in to the room not knowing which version was playing I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. There is a little more openness in the Hi Res version but a casual listen wouldn't really reveal it. Now, the 24/96 LINN mastered recording of Vivaldi's Four Seasons that I was playing last night is a completely different kettle of fish. The quality of that recording and the way my system portrayed it absolutely blew me away.
bobbasrah
13-11-2011, 14:03
Strange onn Dave, as I find the opposite on admitedly the only two albums I have as standard, 26/96, and 24/192.... If it is not upsampled to 24/96, there should be a clear difference...
Beyond 24/96 I personally can hear no differences.
Between lost coaxial plugs and extension leads, this has been quite an amusing thread...
Canetoad
13-11-2011, 14:31
:popcorn:
I've been enthusiastically reading this thread out of interest. I do most of my listening through a Squeezebox but, out of curiosity, I checked the sound card in my old PC to see if it has a digital out. It does, but it's 3.5mm jack so I'd have to get an adaptor cable to convert to SPDIF. Would I be better off getting a USB/SPDIF converter or go with the onboard card output?
Spend £20 on a converter (16/48 max) or a cable (24/192 + 5.1) off the soundcard? :scratch:
Most of my music is Flac 16/44.1.
Imo opinion, for a PC at least and possibly for a laptop if you’re a bit handy with the welding kit, and if you’re using a separate Dac rather than a sound card (not talking about MOB onboard sound here, but a proper sound card with Dac) you are far better off finding the SPDIF output on the MOB and running new leads and socket to give digital out. You can even use nice screened cable if you believe it may make a difference.
Some MOB just provide a header socket while others as seen above do in fact supply a coax socket somewhere.
At least this way you no longer have to worry about audio getting routed through various sound management layers.
Once again imo the less sockets, converters, software you can manage with the better.
It seems to me the selling point of most converters is they will asynchronously clock the data from the converter to the Dac. I’m not sure how many of these converters clock from PC to converter.
Basically if asynchronous data transfer is something you believe will give better sound quality (I do) then why not do the job properly and get an asynchronous Dac in the first place and save all this pissing about.
You could always replace the 3.5mm with an RCA socket, but do check that the leads go directly to the MOB.
I give up Dave.
You’re killing me :lolsign:
:lolsign: Sorry John... :eyebrows:
I'll tell you something, through all this faffing about, I've learnt more about outputting Hi Res digital music in the past few days than I thought possible. It's a bloody minefield :lolsign:
The power or RFI issues I've been experiencing are interesting though and I am very grateful that the problem has occurred. If it wasn't for my bloodymindedness and determination to coax my equipment to output digital music to the very best of its ability I would have continued using my setup to listen to digital files, blissfully unaware that this issue was causing degradation. Once I've tidied up the power distribution side of things I expect to hear a marked improvement in sound reproduction from all my digital files.
I hope this thread helps others who might also be confused about Hi Res digital playback and its many potential issues. It's a testament to this forum and its fantastic membership that those as inexperienced as myself in this field can enjoy the capabilities of our equipment to its full extent. Thank you all for being so patient with me as I asked what must have seemed quite inane questions. Cheers guys... :cool:
Canetoad
13-11-2011, 15:45
Sorry, what's an MOB? Motherboard?
I have a spare soundcard the same from the last PC that died. I might look at trying to replace the 3.5mm with an RCA and see what happens. :)
Sorry, what's an MOB? Motherboard?
I have a spare soundcard the same from the last PC that died. I might look at trying to replace the 3.5mm with an RCA and see what happens. :)
Yup Bernie, MOB or mobo is shorthand for motherboard. A 3.5mm - RCA (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FEMALE-3-5MM-STEREO-JACK-2-RCA-PHONO-CONVERTER-470-/180714905534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a13729fbe) adapter might be a good temporary solution for you ;)
Canetoad
13-11-2011, 16:05
Just checked the soundcard (Soundblaster Audigy2 ZS) and, apart from the main connector it has a connector (not used) for each of the following:
CD in 4-pin
Aux in 4-pin
CD SPDIF 2-pin
I gather the CD SPDIF is a digital output. I could run some wire from there to an RCA socket mountd on the back plate.
I don't really want to spend much but it would be nice to set up some better sounds with a DAC and and old amp and speakers in the office.
Hmm, there really does seem to be a lot of confusion here :)
The basis for any computer is the Motherboard (MOB).
Basically everything plugs into this board.
Most Motherboards have a chip on board that will output a digital signal.
The standard for this is SPDIF.
A Sound Card is basically a Dac that plugs into the Motherboard.
If you have an external Dac, you don’t need a Sound Card.
If you route a digital signal through a Sound Card and then on to an external Dac, unless you know how to use whichever sound management software that comes with your computer you risk sending digital data through the components on your Sound Card befoe sending this digital signal on to your external Dac.
Most Motherboards allow for a direct SPDIF out. Some computer manufacturers fit this digital socket (SPDIF OUT) in an obvious place with the rest of your peripheral connectors; some just leave the socket unconnected on the Motherboard and leave it to the people who mke the computer to either connect it up or not.
Sometimes they fit 3.5 sockets, sometimes optical sockets etc etc.
Its luck of the draw as to what you get.
What I’m trying to get across here is connecting up a Coax RCA digital output direct from your Motherboard isn’t a particularly difficult task if you can solder and use a drill.
I suggest that a digital signal direct from the Motherboard is less likely to be adversely affected by sound management software or user misunderstanding than routing this digital signal through various unnecessary components and software.
That'll work a treat Bernie, the lead you require is available from vendors on ebay and elsewhere.
Ok guys, after much experimentation I am now certain this is a power issue and that the major culprit is the laptop power supply, but that the underlying issue is down to the way I am currently having to power my computer equipment. Whenever I plug anything into this circuit, or switch anything on, it causes dropouts during playback. Everything other than the laptop PS only causes a dropout upon switch on/off, the lappy power supply however causes constant dropouts when in use. I've now installed the the Tacima into the circuit and if anything the problem is even worse now :doh: With the lappy PS unplugged there are no dropouts at all, which I'm guessing means the HP PS is one noisy bugger :rolleyes:
I've tried taking everything out of circuit that is unnecessary apart from the feed to the desktop PC and the lappy which is how I narrowed it down. In a mo I am going to setup my netbook to see if that alliviates the problem...
In your case Bernie you seem to be talking about a 3.5 output jack from your Soundcard.
Get rid of the Soundcard and connect directly to the SPDIF on your Motherboard.
If you cant find a socket see above.
The next option is send digital data over USB.
You don’t need a soundcard for this either.
There are a few possible advantages to sending digital data over USB.
Firstly everyone can find a USB socket on their PC/Laptop :eyebrows:
Next, USB is sent in packets not digital streams.
Next, USB is rather well suited to asynchronous data transfer. I happen to think asynchronous data transfer has a lot going for it.
There are however disadvantages.
The majority of Dacs are not particularly well set up to receive digital data from USB. Good receiver chips capable of processing anything above redbook standard are comparatively expensive and can be a lot harder to implement successfully than SPDIF.
Next different Operating Systems have different USB data transfer capabilities and different USB driver implementation.
Windows USB implementation for example won’t handle more than 24/96 while Apple and Linux will.
The majority of the hardware problems regarding file audio seem to come about with people trying to mix SPDIF and USB in the data chain and this is where they try to sell you expensive converters. I’m not saying some may not perform very well but far better imo to decide how you are going to transfer digital data from your computer and then buy the appropriate equipment designed to do that job; not a piece of kit that tries to do SPDIF and USB and make the feckin tea :doh:
There are a few Dacs that can handle USB and SPDIF equally well but they tend to be a bit expensive.
Canetoad
13-11-2011, 17:01
I found the plug on the old motherboard (with a rubber cap on it), which is an AMD Athlon. The current PC (Pentium 4 motherboard) doesn't have one (they're both HP Media Centre PCs) :doh:
Anyway, I had a look around with a torch and there is a 2-pin connector marked SPDIF on the Pentium motherboard so I'll run a plug from there to an RCA socket on the back panel. Is there an easy way to tell the polarity so I don't connect the wrong way round? Should I use some shielded cable? I can get some from the old PC if needed.
Thanks for all the help guys. Should be able to get some better sounds out of the old heap for minimal outlay using bits and pieces I already have. :eyebrows:
Cool :)
This may help you identify ground and signal otherwise its a measurement job.
http://www.frontx.com/cpx106_2.html
I used screened cable in my server but if you have a look at all the other stuff in there chucking out EMI and RFI I doubt it makes a bit of difference.
Righto, the situation is much clearer now and the lappy PS is at fault. Luckily it's an HP lappy and when I bought it I also took out an extended warranty so I shall be contacting HP tomorrow to ask for a replacement PS. The netbook and its PS are having no effect on music playback whatsoever. Wow, what a palavor :eyebrows:
In the long term I think it would be best for me to replace the cheap 10 way mains block and seek to upgrade the two single sockets in this room to doubles. At least that way I will be able refine the power distribution to my equipment. For now I am relegated to using my netbook for the near future at least. I'm currently listening to David Gilmore Live in 24/48 and it is sounding wonderful and free of hiccups :lol:
brian2957
14-11-2011, 00:09
Great thread .I've learned more about computer audio in the last hour or so reading this thread than I've ever learned in the last few months mucking around in the dark . Most of the posts have been kept simple and easy to understand , perfect for a 'thicko 'like me. Thanks guys for passing on years of hard earned experience and information. There are several paths which I now will explore in the coming months , Hopefully I will have something useful to post back when the time comes.
Brian.:)
Good luck Brian, it has certainly been an eventful thread... :lol:
bobbasrah
14-11-2011, 10:51
This has been a fun and at times hair pulling thread. A couple of points stuck out though beyond faffing around looking for the invisible/visible connection and extension leads, so rather than agree or disagree with the varioous comments, my own experience is as follows...
On my old p4/IDE XP system (currently covered in dust waiting for the rebuild), I needed an audio upgrade at the time from the original (Creative?) add on card, to feed my old Pioneer (straight RCA inputs). A buddy recommended a particular but cheapish usb powered DAC instead of a a card for a number of justified reasons, and ample evidence on the net reinforced his comments. After a bit of farting around with Foobar and MediaPortal I got this to work amazingly well on ASIO, but could hear occasional clicks, I guessed down to the shared single USB controller on the mobo. The DAC had a proprietary driver for USB to allow up to 24/192 to be handled. Audio SQ was a huge step up from the original 3.5mm adaptor to RCA from the mobo. The old desktop was not going to be a super quiet HTPC, as the fans on the CPU, PSU and Northbridge were noisy.
My new whisper quiet 4 core 64bit desktop build specifically for the lounge deliberately used a mobo which had 2 SATA controllers and 2 USB controllers. The 4 removeable storage drives are on the SATA3 controller, the 2 system drives on the SATA2. The DAC was put on the USB3 controller, all else on the USB2. Resulting sound had no intereference whatever, and was crystal clear.
With arrival of a new modern receiver capable of DTS etc., I tried OPT->RCVR, USB->DAC->RCA->RCVR, USB->DAC->OPT->RCVR, and found the optimum in this case to be the latter for audio listening. Most times the DAC sounded gorgeous on RCA, but the Rcvr does not give the same occasional sibilance, which I have put down to the DAC's audio stage. It does however sound slightly sterile this way, or perhaps that is as it should be, meaning uncoloured/accurate.
As the DAC is dedicated via the Player software and ASIO/USB for music effectively in the background to the main system, I can switch between analogue or digital at the RCVR with ease for the same input selection. Films default on the player software to the mobo optical out to a separate RCVR input, or I can switch this to HDMI on the OS Audio Device output. But here for me is the fun part....
This is not a dedicated audio machine or HTPC. I use it to browse the net, work on projects, and it doesn't bat an eyelid or interrupt my listening pleasure one iota. The plasma plays online audio or video via HDMI (when set) with no intereference apart from my having being obliged to turn down Rachmaninov to hear the TV audio. The two systems run entirely separately from the same computer with no issues whatever.
Once the old desktop is rebuilt, soon, I am warned, I will refit it with the old DAC, and I will get a new DAC for the livingroom. I am not convinced that USB is the answer, but neither am I convinced it is not.
It has worked for me in this instance, tomorrow, who knows....
Does Asio4all only work with USB because despite having followed the installation instructions to the letter it staunchly refuses to appear as an option in Foobar2000's device list even though its DLL file is resident in FB's components folder? The Asio helpfile talks about creating a new device option from Foobar itself, but I have failed to find an option to allow me to do this. It also mentions that a tray icon should appear once it is set up through its offline settings utility. Thus far this hasn't happened. I'm sure this is down to my inexperience with the software so I would very much appreciate a walk through on how to set up asio4all on a Windows 7 x64bit machine.
Also, considering I am streaming from my PC to the DacMagic via a normal Belkin PureAV Silver IC, what, if any, detrimental effects would this cable have on the data stream?
Does Asio4all only work with USB because despite having followed the installation instructions to the letter it staunchly refuses to appear as an option in Foobar2000's device list even though its DLL file is resident in FB's components folder? The Asio helpfile talks about creating a new device option from Foobar itself, but I have failed to find an option to allow me to do this. It also mentions that a tray icon should appear once it is set up through its offline settings utility. Thus far this hasn't appeared.
Also, considering I am streaming from my PC to the DacMagic via a normal Belkin PureAV Silver IC, what, if any, detrimental effects would this cable have on the data stream?
Hi Dave, I've a feeling that ASIO4ALL is a generic ASIO driver for USB, my soundcard (M-Audio 192) comes with it's own ASIO device driver, I wonder if there's one out there for your MOB.
When using ASIO you also need the ASIO dll out option installed for Foobar, as with winamp, it's a two piece thing. I'm not sure why you cant see it, as I said I'm using winamp, where I needed to drop the dll into a plugin library.
As your using W7, won't WASAPI be sufficient?
RE. The digital cable, I've been advised to use proper shielded coax, more knowledgeable people than I will be able to explain, I use a Belkin white pure AV coax with mine. :)
Cheers Will. The reason I'm exploring the Asio route is because I'm willing to try anything to reduce the incidence of dropouts. As I understand it, the reason I haven't experienced this issue before using WMP to playback digital files is due to windows buffering the output thus masking the underlying problem. Obviously, as it is set up just now the power issue is interrupting the datastream thus causing the dropouts. At this moment in time I am wondering if outputting the datastream via the SPDIF is really worth all this hassle and I'm considering returning to the original USB setup. :(
Even with ASIO I'm using the largest buffer settings I can (both software and hardware ones), but that's because I also work at the PC and am using 24/96, so it insulates the playback from contention problems, and gapless playback issues. :)
I'd say USB is fine if you have an asynchronous DAC with proper drivers, if not then the SPDIF option should be better IMHO
bobbasrah
14-11-2011, 18:12
If this is a win7 machine, which I think it os, WASAPI or ASIO should turn up. You may be better to uninstall ASIO4ALL in case it is causing conflicts.
Foobar SHOULD see WASAPI and ASIO dll's if they are downloaded and installed in the proper folder. Check on Foobar site and re-download as necessary.
Life, tell me about it......
PS - Have you disabled WMP as default media player?
If this is a win7 machine, which I think it os, WASAPI or ASIO should turn up. You may be better to uninstall ASIO4ALL in case it is causing conflicts.
Foobar SHOULD see WASAPI and ASIO dll's if they are downloaded and installed in the proper folder. Check on Foobar site and re-download as necessary.
Life, tell me about it......
PS - Have you disabled WMP as default media player?
I've re-installed Asio a couple of times now Robert with the same results. As for WMP, I'm not sure how to... :eyebrows:
bobbasrah
15-11-2011, 09:20
Hi Dave,
It would be ideal if someone with the same setup as you talked you through it, as my own is slightly different. I recollect Vincent Kars has an excellent site worth referring to (well tempered computer or similar) as it may be more appropriate. Will and others also pointed to a few other excellent resources.
I use MediaPortal, which uses PureAudio as ASIO ready plugin for audio (and VLC player for video). My DAC has it's own proprietary ASIO driver for the OS to allow 24/192 to pass to the device via usb. PureAudio sees the DAC as an output option (as does Win7 Audio Devices, albeit listed as disabled so far as the main system is concerned). In this way PureAudio runs exclusively to the DAC.
I have never used Asio4all, but have heard great things said, and also problems with conflicts arising. In your own case, WASAPI is native to Win7, and ASIO works, so I would de-install Asio4all (which I think is a bastardisation of these) to get started. You can always reinstall later if necessary.
I am now going to have to rely heavily on memory (dodgy ground) of Foobar. Foobar is 32bit and is installed in your program86 folder on a 64bit machine.
The Wasapi and Asio plugins should be downloaded from Foobar site and installed in the components folder of Foobar. Now Foobar has ASIO/WASAPI, and your OS should have WASAPI at least. They can now relate.
(I also downloaded ALAC, Monkey and various other DLLs in components so that Foobar would play any audio file that was thrown at it. I still tend to use Foobar to convert or split audio files to different formats as it is powerful yet easy to use eg DTS to FLAC etc.. Some guys here have developed some impressive Foobar setups, but I was too lazy to go that route.)
Open Foobar, File, Preferences, and you should see a sub-menu with all the input output dll listed under Components. Also you will see below that Playback and a Output subdirectory. This is the area where you should be looking for your DAC output or setting it up. If your DAC if not listed, it can be added and should show up as a WASAPI usb device I think...
I've given up trying to get Asio to work, no matter what I do and how many times I remove it and re-install it into Foobars component list it will not appear in Foobar's Device list, so that's that.
I have some good news though: I borrowed my son-in-laws HP lappy power supply today which is identical to mine and joy of joys, there were very few dropouts, much, much less than before. When using my PS to power my son-in-laws lappy not only does a menacing hum emanate from the lappy speakers but also the 'lock' LED's on the DacMagic flicker constantly, this is one sick PS :(
The dropouts haven't gone completely but they are extremely rare now even when playing the highest res files. The 4gb of Geil ram I ordered arrived today so I'll be fitting that shortly. Whether it helps or not, I'll feel much happier that Win7 has the headroom within which to operate without having to resort to using its Swap File. Once I've installed it into the PC I'll try pushing the buffer size up in an attempt to put a stop to the very few dropouts that are still occurring. Wish me luck :)
Hi Dave, I've just added the ASIO out dll (foo_out_asiov0-9-4-5.dll) to the components directory of my version of Foobar 2000 (1.1.5), some of the documentation out there must be out of date.
It doesn't appear in the dropdown list of devices, it appears as a sub tree entry on the left hand pane under Playback/Output/ASIO Virtual Devices...you then add the ASIO devices to connect to via it's own screen.
I think this may be your issue :)
Mind you I've not followed it through as I'm using winamp...
I'm hearing nothing through SPDIF so I will try it via USB later. I'm listening to Robbie Robertson's Music For The Native American just now and it is just too damned good to interupt ;)
Canetoad
28-12-2011, 14:06
Further to my trials and tribulations setting up an RCA SPDIF connection on my old PC, I found that the MOB SPDIF output plug was 3-pin and I'd bought a 2-pin cable. Anyway, I finally got a 3-pin cable and fitted the RCA socket to the PC chassis and plugged into the MOB. Problem is there's no signal at all at the RCA. Do I have to enable it in bios? PC is an HP Media Centre.
I tried swapping the two wires round but no signal either way. 3-pin setup is middle plug is blank and, from research, is power. The outer two pins go to the RCA. Cable I bought (Specifically to connect audio to HDMI output) has a red and yellow wire. I connected the yellow to earth and the red to signal on the RCA.
Any ideas? :scratch:
bobbasrah
29-12-2011, 13:17
Bernie, no response since yesterday, do have you fixed it?. If not....
Assuming you do not have a manual for it, I can only suggest googling out the manual or find the audio information on that motherboard. That way you will know which terminal is which for the digital audio signal out.
Are you feeding the digital output direct to a DAC via coax to be sure there is no digital audio? (you mentioned connecting up HDMI but not sure if this is how you are running the digital audio signal). Test it in parts if that is what you are doing.
There has to be a signal there unless it has been re-routed. Not sure if the Bios can do that, but If I recall correctly you said there was a soundcard connected to this board earlier, so perhaps the driver for it is interfering or some setting has been altered, or it cannot work alongside analogue audio. I don't know the board make/model so cannot help much.
Canetoad
29-12-2011, 18:23
Bob, I don't have the manual for it but will try and find it. I plugged it into a DAC and it was completely dead. No sound whatsoever! I'll have another good look about on the weekend. It's such a pain to disconnect and reconnect everything to it.
The cable I bought was advertised as a cable to connect SPDIF to a card ith HDMI output so that both audio and video are output together. That was the reference to "HDMI". Apparently it's a popular modification for the gaming fraternity.
Reid Malenfant
29-12-2011, 18:29
Bernie, any chance of a link to this cable?
Canetoad
29-12-2011, 18:40
3-Pin Cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Pin-NVIDIA-Video-Graphics-Card-HDMI-SPDIF-Audio-Cable-/160675865024?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25690721c0)
Reid Malenfant
29-12-2011, 18:44
Ah, something I'm definately not familiar with :eyebrows:
Sorry Bernie, I had an idea but seeing that brought it to a dead stop :(
Canetoad
29-12-2011, 18:55
No worries mate. I'll sort it out. If worse comes to worse I can get a 3.5mm to SPDIF RCA adaptor cable and use the soundcard output on the back of the PC. I was told it would be better to bypass the soundcard if possible.
bobbasrah
30-12-2011, 12:18
No worries mate. I'll sort it out. If worse comes to worse I can get a 3.5mm to SPDIF RCA adaptor cable and use the soundcard output on the back of the PC. I was told it would be better to bypass the soundcard if possible.
Digital to analogue to digital to feed a DAC? Why on earth would you want to do that ?
Other than some very expensive devices, soundcards are pretty poor digital audio converters, and are not in an ideal environment with regards to noise. However, most of those I have seen do have a digital audio out, usually optical.
You should have a digital audio signal on that motherboard, because that is what feeds the soundcard, the only question remaining is WHERE IS IT?????.
It SHOULD be on the SPDIF connection.:scratch:
Canetoad
30-12-2011, 16:31
I would have thought a digital output on a sound card would bypass the DAC. :scratch:
bobbasrah
30-12-2011, 18:30
Correct, but you were considering taking the 3.5mm output which I believe is analogue.
What I'm getting at is that the digital signal is alive and available otherwise it could not fire up the soundcard...
You should be able to pick up the signal without the card direct from the board, and you have found the spdif output terminal. The fact that the digital signal is going to your PCI (guessing for a P4) socket should be common to the spdif output, unless something has physically prevented it, which seems impossible unless it is running through some sort of switch.
Could you please take a peek and note the motherboard make model and Rev., and I will go dig around...
Canetoad
31-12-2011, 16:05
The Soundblaster card has 5.1 output as analogue, mic input and it also has a dedicated 3.5mm socket for digital output. It's not analogue. It also has an output socket (2-pin) on the board I can feed off. I will only use this if I can't get the feed from the motherboard sorted.
I'll let you know what I find once I've dragged the PC out of the corner and disconnected everything again.
bobbasrah
01-01-2012, 01:30
Fair enough Bernie, my mistake. I never came acroos a Creative card with a 3.5mm digital output. I only came across optical digital outs before, so excuse my higgorance.
Hopefully, we are gettung near the end of this......
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