View Full Version : CD format under threat?
I was reading the Register today which is predicting the end of the CD format for audio discs by the end of next year, to make way for digital downloads only!
I'm not convinced, but what do others think?
The major record labels are planning to kill off the CD format by the end of next year to make way for digital downloads only.
That's the claim made by music site Side-Line which says it heard whispers that the end of the CD is nigh from music industry insiders.
That said, it has failed to get any official confirmation from the labels, though that's not perhaps surprising.
The notion is that, by the end of 2012, the majors will focus entirely on downloads. The only CDs that will go on sale through 2013 and beyond will be special editions and albums from the biggest artists.
You can read the full article here;
http://www.reghardware.com/2011/11/07/record_labels_to_kill_cd_format_by_end_of_2012/
bobbasrah
08-11-2011, 12:06
Yep, agreed, but over a longer term than described though.
In their attempts to maintain a large and profitable monopoly, the media industry has royally screwed the customer, the artist, and even the equipment manufacturers. In the digital age, bands and artistes can DIY, piracy is rampant, iTunes has taken off, and the media monoliths have reached an impasse, or was that 10 years ago....
A change of business model is inevitable despite their flailing around for years trying to evade it. The physical medium is nearly flogged to death with no further innovations to prolong it, and will go the same way as LP and cassette in the current mainstream.
It seems likely they will justify a price hike for CD (blaming piracy, iTunes, Spotify, Imports, Lady Goo-Goo, etc) leading up to the change, keeping downloads at current CD price, to whatever timescale accounts can justify to maintain cashflow.
It is a racing certainty that downloads will have some new attempt at DRM involved.
They would not consider for one moment dropping their huge profits in the past, and they will not be considering it now.
Rare Bird
08-11-2011, 15:32
To be honest i don't really care if CD dies or not, i nearly have all the CD's i require, a handfull of fully serviced & working machines i hardly use, im set up for life..
Lodgesound
08-11-2011, 16:40
It's interesting to witness first hand the popular music industry committing slow and irrecoverable suicide through talent shows like The X Factor.
It is'nt as if they are producing much worth listening to now anyway as they only promote young good looking and primarily talentless artists with absolutely no long-term re-sale value.
The quality of mastering applied to commercial CD's is now nothing short of disgraceful and an utter insult to the end user. I heard Coldplay's Myloxyloto recently and was utterly appalled - compressed and limited within an inch of it's life with an average dynamic range of 2 dB!!!!
Completely unlistenable and totally fatiguing at any listening level - I have sent a letter of complaint to the producer and record label.
I always knew CD was a 'flash in the pan' format - I'm glad I didn't waste any money on it now...:)
Reid Malenfant
08-11-2011, 18:44
I can't see it happening myself ;) Records are still about & if anything production has increased of late. So quite how they expect CD to die is beyond me :scratch:
Vincent Kars
08-11-2011, 21:25
It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future
Not to fussed really.
Never been a mad lover of cd.
Quite happy to use a tt and squeezebox.
My biggest worry would not so much be files replacing CD, although I'd much rather have the "hard copy" - not even the fact that manufacturing and distribution cost savings would be unlikely to be passed on to the consumer - it would be the quality of downloads. Most of the mainstream services offer sub-cd quality sample rates and with itunes, proprietary file formats. The problem is, Joe Public who is fostering this environment doesn't care...
I heard Coldplay's Myloxyloto recently and was utterly appalled - compressed and limited within an inch of it's life with an average dynamic range of 2 dB!!!!
I have long held Coldplay's X&Y as the all-time worst sounding recording released on CD. Could the new one really be worse?
I can't see CD dying any time soon. As with vinyl, it's going to last a lot longer than predicted although I do agree that prices will go up. They are seriously cheap at the moment so take advantage while you can.
Stratmangler
09-11-2011, 08:21
It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future
Is it possible to make predictions about the past or the present? :lolsign:
The used CD market will flourish for a long time. The interesting thing about relying on digital downloads and the absence of a hard copy is it blurs the line between legitimate copy and pirate copy, there's no longer any physical proof of purchase save an email.
bobbasrah
09-11-2011, 09:49
+1
I suspect that there will be one last attempt to DRM or otherwise protect the industry's returns.
The genie is out of the bottle on digital.
The Web will see a lot of DIY band productions in the coming years, the only losers being the media empires who would not change.
Sorry, that was a FUTURE prediction
tannoy man
09-11-2011, 10:18
Some CD pressing plants will close and reduce capacity but they won't all close.
there is to much demand.
Alan Sircom
09-11-2011, 10:49
I was reading the Register today which is predicting the end of the CD format for audio discs by the end of next year, to make way for digital downloads only!
I'm not convinced, but what do others think?
You can read the full article here;
http://www.reghardware.com/2011/11/07/record_labels_to_kill_cd_format_by_end_of_2012/
Not wishing to play the 'journo' card, but this article is spun out from another article that references its own editor's proclamations as 'evidence'. That's circular logic. However, it may be that the editor and author on the original site are reluctant to cite their sources; I've heard similar proclamations from extremely high-up-the-food-chain people in the music business ("CD is dead and it's time we bury the corpse") for several years. But no-one (unless really wasted) ever put a specific year on the final switch off of CD.
And in fairness, the author at REG is just as suspicious of the timeline.
I'd say the short-term future of CD is secure, although the elephants in the room are the amount of money music companies are losing on most CD titles printed, and the general winding down of CD transport manufacture. It seems unlikely that subsequent generations of anything (computers, games consoles, home entertainment systems) will feature an optical disc drive of any description, and when these big hitters finally walk away from optical drive, CD transports will be about as hard to track down as floppy disk drives today.
I think a 2012 switch off is unlikely, but if you flip those numbers around, I doubt there will be much new CD hardware or discs to speak of in 2021.
the general winding down of CD transport manufacture
Interesting, Alan. However, is that true of all transport mechs or are DVD & Blu-ray mechs still being chucked out at a rate of knots? I wonder if people will just switch to buying universal machines instead?
This won't help their sales, either... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059321/End-cheap-DVD-Prices-soar-Chancellor-closes-VAT-tax-loophole.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)
griffo104
09-11-2011, 13:04
CD will die a death sooner than I think alot of people think. Maybe not 2012 but nearer that than 2021, imo.
Livinfg in southend, about the only place to buy new CDs is HMV and that section is now in a little dark corner of the shop as they have expanded their tech (yeah right) area. It's by far the smallest part of the shop and just shows that purchasing CDs no the spur of the moment outside of the album charts is getting more difficult with out being in abig city or off the internet.
youngsters aren't interested in owning the hard copy and as mentioned only big classics like the recent Pink floyd reissues - aimed at the more mature market - will continue.
I don't know anybody looking to buy a hifi cd player, most are ditching them for computer based systems.
It's no different to films - playing with one of the new smart TVs with the iplayer and Lovefilm on it being wirelessly plugged in to your broadband. we'll soon have our TV programmes and films streamed in to us on request as and when. May look like a long shot at the moment but once the price drops on these TVs that will start to be the end of DVD and Blu-ray as well.
Having used my PS3 for Lovefilm, why bother even going to the hassle of walking to your nearest post box or buying the film when you can have streamed direct to your TV as and when you want it.
brian2957
09-11-2011, 13:37
I had that experience the other day in HMV.. A shop full of Blu Ray and DVD discs with CDS relegated to a small corner on the upper floor. Seriously though vinyl took a bashing when CDs took a grip only to re-merge when discerning music lovers discovered that it wasn't the music revolution that it promised to be . I work with around 30 people in my place of employment and most people have CD or DVD players . Only a small minority have BLU RAY players. Anyway you can still play CDs on DVD players and BLU RAY players. A few other formats have beeen introduced over the years , SACD is an example , which have not really caught on the way CD has. Go into most peoples homes and chances are you will find they have a large CD collection. I have a funny feeling CD may reign supreme for a few years yet.
Brian.
I think to talk about the complete demise of CD's is premature. Look at vinyl, its the only music medium that is actually increasing in sales. Youngsters, oldsters, middleagesters will always want some sort of physical ownership of their music. Downloading is in my opinion a cold, heartless and ethereal way to own a music collection, a bit like those appalling Kindle thingmanygadgets.....
brian2957
09-11-2011, 14:03
Good point. I have bought a few Cds over the last few months and ripped them on to my computer as I'm experimenting with computer audio. Down loading has never been an option as I like to get something 'physical 'for my money . I like holding the box , admiring the artwork and holding the actual CD. Many contain substantial booklets of information about the artist(s) and also carry the words of each song etc. Good for reference if you can't quite work out what the artist is singing. This information can change my understsnding of a line or a verse or the whole song sometimes.
Brian.
Good point. I have bought a few Cds over the last few months and ripped them on to my computer as I'm experimenting with computer audio. Down loading has never been an option as I like to get something 'physical 'for my money . I like holding the box , admiring the artwork and holding the actual CD. Many contain substantial booklets of information about the artist(s) and also carry the words of each song etc. Good for reference if you can't quite work out what the artist is singing. This information can change my understsnding of a line or a verse or the whole song sometimes.
Brian.
What I don't understand is why record companies or itunes etc. don't "host" the artwork, lyrics etc., which would improve the download experience considerably. (Sure someone will now tell me that there are services that do!)
Alan Sircom
09-11-2011, 14:19
Interesting, Alan. However, is that true of all transport mechs or are DVD & Blu-ray mechs still being chucked out at a rate of knots? I wonder if people will just switch to buying universal machines instead?
At the moment, DVD and BRD mechs are still being made in good numbers, but largely to meet computer and games console demands. The computer market wants to see the back of the drive, because they already consider it a 'legacy' device. DVD sales are past their prime, and BRD sales are expected to peak or have even already peaked, with no disc-based replacement lined up.
The AV market (hi-fi and home cinema) is approximately one-fifth the size of the computer and gaming market and they get to dictate what is and isn't going to be made today, because the market for hi-fi and home cinema disc mechs isn't big enough to be sustainable for a long-term future.
Alan Sircom
09-11-2011, 14:29
I think to talk about the complete demise of CD's is premature. Look at vinyl, its the only music medium that is actually increasing in sales. Youngsters, oldsters, middleagesters will always want some sort of physical ownership of their music. Downloading is in my opinion a cold, heartless and ethereal way to own a music collection, a bit like those appalling Kindle thingmanygadgets.....
Vinyl is more of a survivor than CD long-term. CD doesn't scale well; it needs an infrastructure to make the laser arm and efficient sized clean rooms to stamp out discs by the million. If the 'by the million' drops to the 'by the tens of thousands', it becomes prohibitive to maintain the pressing plant.
By contrast, vinyl just needs someone who can maintain the pressing machine, a medium-large lock-up and a source of vinyl blanks. There's a capacity limit (the number of discs pressed by the number of surviving pressing plants) but up to that things are pretty reliable. The prices rise to high levels as the pressings become artisanal, but nothing compared to running a clean room plant.
I agree that a great deal of people like to own something physical, but that only really applies if they think what they own has intrinsic value, and this is something the music biz has completely failed to instil in the prospective buyer of music today.
worthingpagan
09-11-2011, 16:12
too many cdp's are sold to justify scrapping the format altogether. If you don't own a pc or i phone etc, how will you be able to buy music if it's only downloadable? Cd's have been around nearly 30 years and everyone predicted the death of vinyl at the time, but both are still around, and while there's still money to be made i can't see the manufacturer's throwing the towel in, not for a long long while to come ;)
Alan Sircom
10-11-2011, 01:03
too many cdp's are sold to justify scrapping the format altogether. If you don't own a pc or i phone etc, how will you be able to buy music if it's only downloadable? Cd's have been around nearly 30 years and everyone predicted the death of vinyl at the time, but both are still around, and while there's still money to be made i can't see the manufacturer's throwing the towel in, not for a long long while to come ;)
That depends on whether CD's future is more like LP or compact cassette. Remember that cassette sales outsold LP in the late 1970s and CD in much of the 1980s, but it's all but gone now.
The cassette relied on an infrastructure in a manner similar to CD today. Both require specialist manufacturing bases to build mechanisms and media. As cassette shows, once that specialist base stops supply, the technology quickly fades.
LP is different. It's possible to keep old Garrards and Thorens and Lencos alive by fabricating replacement parts. Similarly, new vinyl is predicated on keeping antiquated pressing plant machinery going.
We already have CD players that have become doorstops and paperweights because of a transport mech that is no longer available. Meanwhile, with sales of players dropping away, most manufacturers will struggle to get a return on investment on the cost of developing a new CD player. All of which means, if the transport mechanism of a manufacturer's current CD player is discontinued, is it worth that company developing a new model? Companies have already developed exit strategies (Linn), all-encompassing concepts (Naim) or 'last man standing' plans (Esoteric). I suspect more will follow suit.
The 'how will you still buy music?' question will likely simply be ignored, just as if someone who wants to buy tapes is ignored today.
This is not an especially comfortable situation long-term. I hope that CD players would continue to be produced and new models developed for the longest time, but I wouldn't bet on there being much CD technology or media still in production a decade from now.
I agree with Alan that the existence of CD is under threat much more than that of vinyl. I suspect that, in the specialist enthusiast market, vinyl will be around for some considerable years yet, and will likely outlive any of us here.
It's quite clear, however, that the future of CD is bleak, but I think that this situation is reflected much more in mainstream sales than in those of specialist music outlets, particularly those on-line. While I expect high street stores, such as HMV, to completely abandon the format within the next 2 or 3 years, the availability of CDs to buy from on-line retailers will likely continue for much longer, simply because their business model and target market is a little different.
And then there's the fact that those of us with large collections of discs arguably have all the CDs that we'll ever need....
But let's remember also that the likely 'death' of CD, in the near future, only applies to sales of new stock - there will still be thousands of CDs available to buy on the second-hand market, from the likes of eBay, etc, so it will take a very long time indeed for CD to completely vanish and become a veritable relic of the past. As Alan has alluded to, the transport mechanisms on our CD players will likely die first!!
I do intend to invest in a high-quality music streamer in the near future, as clearly it will soon become a necessity, but at least as far as the medium-term future is concerned, it appears that those of us who value the benefits of collecting music on a physical format, will have their desire for buying new releases best served by vinyl...
And given what we were told in the 1980s, during the inception of CD, how ironic is that?? :eyebrows:
Marco.
griffo104
10-11-2011, 10:14
I'm more worried that Marco still thinks Virgin is in the high street.
they ditched CD years ago by turning themselves in to Zavvi and then going bust. they haven't been around for at least a couple of years
About the ONLY mainstream high street music store now is HMV and they are close to bankruptcy, and as mentioned are shrinking the CD part of their shops with frightening speed.
18 months from now the only place you'll probably be able to buy cds is the top 40 chart in your local superstore megastore.
Someone on another forum sent me a picture of one of my favourite independant record shops (records and cds) in Brum had closed down.
I'm lucky, also leaving near Newport, to have Diverse on my doorstep but I'm sure the mail order side of their business is what's keeping them going.
StanleyB
10-11-2011, 10:20
The problem I have with music streamers is that I am still to find one that has a better signal to noise ratio than my CD player. For critical listening and R&D I find myself complete against music streamers at this moment in time.
I'm more worried that Marco still thinks Virgin is in the high street.
they ditched CD years ago by turning themselves in to Zavvi and then going bust. they haven't been around for at least a couple of years
Haha... You know, when I typed that, I did wonder! :doh: :lol:
Now amended.
However, as I'm not a fan of big towns and cities, I don't find myself very often on their high streets. I was probably last in Virgin, in Chester, about three years ago.
I do occasionally visit the HMV store in Wrexham, though. The bulk of my music buying, however, is from independent record stores in small towns (which I much prefer), and on-line from the same, or the likes of Amazon.
Marco.
Stratmangler
10-11-2011, 10:23
The problem I have with music streamers is that I am still to find one that has a better signal to noise ratio than my CD player. For critical listening and R&D I find myself complete against music streamers at this moment in time.
Which ones have you tried Stan?
Diverse are good, but not cheap. HMV are pathetic in the main, with only a few branches still stocking vinyl and all of them pushing CDs aside. They are focussing on games, which is not their core strength, and this will kill them.
The specialists will once again be king.
The problem I have with music streamers is that I am still to find one that has a better signal to noise ratio than my CD player. For critical listening and R&D I find myself complete against music streamers at this moment in time.
I agree. What you're hearing, however, is most likely how shite their power supplies are...
You need to listen to music streamers from specialist manufacturers, which don't use switch-mode PSUs (or rather ultra-high quality versions of such, like for example, Linn use), and/or those which have had judicious modifications carried out/serious attention paid to their power supply arrangements :)
When I eventually invest in a music streamer, I intend to spend at least as much money on it, as I have done on my CD and vinyl sources. It's the only way to achieve the high sonic standards that I demand, and for it to be comparable, in terms of audio performance, to my existing sources.
Marco.
Rare Bird
10-11-2011, 10:43
What ever turn this takes i'm out already hence my collection is gradually being sold off all but a a couple Dozen titles, besides i don't wish to own a collection anymore.. CD's may get more expensive down the line but going by how hard i'm finding it to get rid of my CD's compared to a couple years ago it looks to me like nobody wants CD these days.. i really have no intensions in using CD player anymore, lets just say they are in storage..However i won't get rid of the machines as i feel without a machine whats the point in even owning one disc!!. As i'm mostly on a computer during the day & Night my music is on lossless files, i do all my listerning via DAC & headphones. If i sit down to relax to a proper stereo sesh with speakers it's music on open Reel machine as a primary source nothing else..
I find this hobby totally no a pleasure these days, i shouldnt let it all get to me but i do!
The problem I have with music streamers is that I am still to find one that has a better signal to noise ratio than my CD player. For critical listening and R&D I find myself complete against music streamers at this moment in time.
Stan, did you se this thread? http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14064
I had noise from my laptop, a galv isolator totally removes it. I still have a switched mode ps on your dac and the various switchers in the laptop. It seems they could have been inferring with each other :) ooh-err!
Linear supplies would of course be a good move.
For me, Clive, it's probably the only way I'll entertain it.
Marco.
What ever turn this takes i'm out already hence my collection is gradually being sold off all but a a couple Dozen titles, besides i don't wish to own a collection anymore.. CD's may get more expensive down the line but going by how hard i'm finding it to get rid of my CD's compared to a couple years ago it looks to me like nobody wants CD these days.. i really have no intensions in using CD player anymore, lets just say they are in storage..However i won't get rid of the machines as i feel without a machine whats the point in even owning one disc!!. As i'm mostly on a computer during the day & Night my music is on lossless files, i do all my listerning via DAC & headphones. If i sit down to relax to a proper stereo sesh with speakers it's music on open Reel machine as a primary source nothing else..
Looks like you're successfully future-proofed, dude! :cool:
Marco.
For me, Clive, it's probably the only way I'll entertain it.
Marco.
Indeed Marco, I'd love to build a server as can be found on the net (including linear supplies) but I just don't have the time at the moment. Someone should be able to build these and sell them at a not too crazy price.
Indeed. Everytime I listen to a, let's call it, 'cost effective' streaming set-up, I can definitely hear the sonically detrimental effect of the switch-mode PSUs. Therefore, the use of high-quality linear PSUs is probably mandatory before I'll invest in a file-based music source, including server.
However, I'm sure that, given an appropriate budget by the buyer, what you describe would be a relative piece of piss to the likes of Nick G... I'd like to see the judicious use of valves somewhere in streaming equation, too! :)
Marco.
The problem I have with music streamers is that I am still to find one that has a better signal to noise ratio than my CD player. For critical listening and R&D I find myself complete against music streamers at this moment in time.
Stan, I can't discuss this on a technical level at all, but when you discuss the streamers, are you talking about top quality soundcards, or the expensive "commercial" products that are there? My very simple set which I use for archived files uses an old M-Audio 24/96, with the digital output from same going into the Digit. Works fine with no dropouts on an ancient PIII PC as long as it has little else to do except read the data off the HDD or DVD-R....
I believe Alex has an excellent performance using a simple interface/buffer from the USB output on his old streaming laptop and then giving the re-clocked signal to the Caiman (all these USB-SPDIF buffers re-clock I believe and may also buffer a little too, so little risk of line-"noise" from the PC interfering with the digital stream, which the buffer then properly? clocks out to the DAC...
I'm trying hard not to believe in foo and magic potions here, music digital data is "just data" until the clocks get hold of it I understand and modern DAC's are supposed to be really good these days and rather "cleaner" than the revered Philips TDA1541A, the sonics of which were dictated, I understand, by the digital filter chip which followed it (at least that's what the engineers at Arcam told me some years ago now...).
I'm trying hard not to believe in foo and magic potions here, music digital data is "just data" until the clocks get hold of it...
Then why can others and I clearly (and genuinely) hear the sonically detrimental effect of the associated SMPS units?
Trust me, Dave, I've heard many set-ups where the point I'm making is applicable. In my experience, it most certainly is not foo.
I understand and modern DAC's are supposed to be really good these days and rather "cleaner" than the revered Philips TDA1541A...
Mmm.... "Clinical" is the adjective I'd use to describe most of them! ;)
Marco.
Well, if you can hear it (and audio digital is very slow these days compared to high-speed HD video, where any problems in the technology would be easy to spot), then it should be measurable :scratch:
In fairness to all, what particular streaming systems have you heard that have these problems - I honestly thought you shied well away from such stuff :lolsign:
By the way, and worth bearing in mind please, even if you reject the concept, your "clinical" may actually be more "correct" for all I/we know and your "accurate" may perhaps be a "flavour" of what should be correct - I mean, so many of your/our favourite records have been through mixing desks full of old style IC's, miles and miles of standard microphone cables etc, so maybe a touch of "flavour" in the playback system is what really is needed to make an otherwise clinical recording sound bearable and "digital" doesn't tend to do this? All supposition of course, but I don't find a Gatorised Caiman "clinical" and certainly not the Rega DAC. The supposedly crap Digit also sounds anything but "clinical," too much the other way until its supplies are sorted out and separated, and then it just expands the dynamics more fully..
I'm just politely suggesting that "digital" only really becomes an issue these days once the DAC converts it back to analogue and the analogue "colourations/flavour" take over, that's all.
I'm doing it again - and we'll just have to beg to differ. I'm on the sidelines here in any case, but since I can no longer afford to obsess about the "gear," I just listen to the music instead, whatever source it comes from :)
StanleyB
10-11-2011, 12:18
Which ones have you tried Stan?
I lost count by now. In my search for a streamer that could play 192KHz files as well I travelled far and wide to try out a number of units.
I now use a converted Sony laptop with an X-FI card that has an optical output. But the laptop is best used on battery power alone for minimal noise interference.
worthingpagan
10-11-2011, 12:32
What ever turn this takes i'm out already hence my collection is gradually being sold off all but a a couple Dozen titles, besides i don't wish to own a collection anymore.. CD's may get more expensive down the line but going by how hard i'm finding it to get rid of my CD's compared to a couple years ago it looks to me like nobody wants CD these days.. i really have no intensions in using CD player anymore, lets just say they are in storage..However i won't get rid of the machines as i feel without a machine whats the point in even owning one disc!!. As i'm mostly on a computer during the day & Night my music is on lossless files, i do all my listerning via DAC & headphones. If i sit down to relax to a proper stereo sesh with speakers it's music on open Reel machine as a primary source nothing else..
I find this hobby totally no a pleasure these days, i shouldnt let it all get to me but i do!
or maybe they just don't like your style of music Andre :laugh:
I’ve had excellent results from replacing SMPS for Linear Power Supplies for both my HRT Dac and my music server.
I can’t explain why this should be so for the Dac, given the HRT has decent isolation except for the problems associated with shared USB 5V rails and the various implementations depending on the hub controller.
Obviously this isn’t applicable for SPDIF Dacs where a separate power supply is usual.
When it comes to the server, it all gets horrendously expensive due to the fact that different voltages are required at differing points on the MOB. I’ve got 3 separate Linear power supplies in my server atm. Should you for example use the excellent expensive power options offered by Paul Hynes (I understand he’ll supply the voltage you require) you could easily run into a PS cost of £700 to £800 to cover USB, processor and whatever other non audio signal MOB functions required.
Even if you kept MOB, RAM and USB card costs down to £500 by the time you allow £500 say for casework (separately screened compartments for the power supplies) and connectors it’s easy to run into costs of £2000 for parts.
How much I wonder would a unit costing £2000 to build (materials) cost from one of the audiophile name brands; £6000 perhaps (?)
Given the audible improvements will be small in relation to a well set up mini ATX style server I think you would be hard pressed to sell to an audiophile market already reluctant to mix computers and audio.
Hi Dave,
Well, if you can hear it (and audio digital is very slow these days compared to high-speed HD video, where any problems in the technology would be easy to spot), then it should be measurable...
Perhaps - I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Either way, however, it doesn't make my observation invalid.
In fairness to all, what particular streaming systems have you heard that have these problems - I honestly thought you shied well away from such stuff :lolsign:
Lol... I do (so far) in terms of my own set-up, but some of my friends use what one could describe as 'rather modest' streaming set ups, such as the likes of Squeezeboxes, iPod Touch-based set-ups, or those using Playstations, most with pretty decent DACs, and none of them get even close to the performance of my modified Sony CDP and DAC.
I have also heard a Linn Akurate (and Klimax) DS, belonging to a friend, and was quite impressed with the former, playing hi-res downlaods through a very high-end system, but even that wasn't quite there compared to what I get from my Sony combo, not to mention also hearing countless streaming set-ups (some so-called 'high-end) at shows, and usually leaving feeling rather unimpressed...
Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that when done properly the sonic potential for streaming is very good indeed, but to my ears, it hasn't quite been perfected yet. And I believe that it will take the judicious use of high-quality linear power supplies, in the design of servers and music streamers, to achieve that. Software-wise, hi-res downloads are already better than anything Red Book CD is capable of.
By the way, and worth bearing in mind please, even if you reject the concept, your "clinical" may actually be more "correct" for all I/we know and your "accurate" may perhaps be a "flavour" of what should be correct...
Of course, it's all subjective. However, all I can judge from is how I consider real voices and instruments to sound, based on years of regularly attending live musical performances, and to my ears, my modified Sony CDP and DAC get it right, musically, more than any modern digital source I've heard so far.
I don't find a Gatorised Caiman "clinical" and certainly not the Rega DAC.
I've not had the pleasure of listening to a Gatorised Caiman, but I've heard other examples of the TC-7520, and would agree that they were not clinical sounding, and indeed instead very musical. Stan, however, much to his credit, spends a considerable amount of time voicing his DACs by ear, and that shows in the final sonic results obtained. It's one of the reasons why bespoke-built equipment by small, specialist manufacturers, can be superb!
I also agree about the Rega DAC, which Ian Walker uses. I've actually heard this in my own system, slotted in, in place of my Sony DAC, and it performed very well indeed. The Rega's musical presentation was essentially very similar (addictively 'analogue sounding', but in a good way), but the Sony DAC added more weight and gravitas, and produced a generally 'bigger' sound, mostly due more than likely to its use of huge, high-quality multiple linear power supplies.
The Rega is a very good DAC, though, and one of the few modern ones I could probably live with. It certainly punches way above its price, sonically! :)
I'm just politely suggesting that "digital" only really becomes an issue these days once the DAC converts it back to analogue and the analogue "colourations/flavour" take over, that's all.
Yes, and also, at the end of the day, with any audio component or system, what one is effectively listening to through one's speakers is modulated mains and the sonic effect of the power supplies used, hence why their intrinsic quality within the replay chain, is of paramount importance ;)
Marco.
You just don’t make any sense to me Dave (DSJR)
You’ll quite happily post comments about audible differences in amplifiers or interconnects for examples on completely subjective evaluation where the science suggests its Hi Fi foo, as you describe it, and yet when it comes to digital data you leap straight into the objectivists camp and do the “bits are bits” bit. :scratch:
Hi John,
I’ve had excellent results from replacing SMPS for Linear Power Supplies for both my HRT Dac and my music server.
I can’t explain why this should be so for the Dac, given the HRT has decent isolation except for the problems associated with shared USB 5V rails and the various implementations depending on the hub controller.
Obviously this isn’t applicable for SPDIF Dacs where a separate power supply is usual.
When it comes to the server, it all gets horrendously expensive due to the fact that different voltages are required at differing points on the MOB. I’ve got 3 separate Linear power supplies in my server atm.
Respect, dude. I think it will take that level of dedication and fastidious attention to detail in order for me to be fully satisfied with the sonic results of file-based audio. Therefore, all I would need is someone to build me what you describe! :)
Should you for example use the excellent expensive power options offered by Paul Hynes (I understand he’ll supply the voltage you require) you could easily run into a PS cost of £700 to £800 to cover USB, processor and whatever other non audio signal MOB functions required.
Even if you kept MOB, RAM and USB card costs down to £500 by the time you allow £500 say for casework (separately screened compartments for the power supplies) and connectors it’s easy to run into costs of £2000 for parts.
How much I wonder would a unit costing £2000 to build (materials) cost from one of the audiophile name brands; £6000 perhaps (?)
All very valid points indeed. However, if the results warranted it, I wouldn't baulk at a cost of £2000 in parts, plus labour, to provide me with the 'ultimate' music streamer, and so the bespoke option is more than likely the route I'll go down. I've spent just as much (and more) on my other sources! The 'badge-fi' route is not likely something I would consider though, as SPPV would undoubtedly be diminished.
Marco.
When it comes to the server, it all gets horrendously expensive due to the fact that different voltages are required at differing points on the MOB. I’ve got 3 separate Linear power supplies in my server atm.
I realise folks have gone to extremes on this stuff. My question must have been asked before.....has someone worked out which power supplies are critical (needing a Paul Hynes type reg) and which are fine with a generic 3 pin reg? It's easy but expensive to chuck the best at the server but it's hard to believe that all of the chips need super-regs. I'd have thought that more basic but well decoupled supplies are all that's required, except in a particularly critical area. But....I've not applied myself to this stuff and many have so I could be talking tosh.
Rare Bird
10-11-2011, 13:59
or maybe they just don't like your style of music Andre :laugh:
You know thats a load of Ballerkz
Hi Dave,
I'm not saying that noise on the power supply isn't there, but is it really an issue WHILE the data is in the digital domain? if it was an issue, wouldn't it affect HD video and the complex stuff computers do?
I don't see why it should. Or perhaps it does and we don't realise it? However, computer hardware isn't as discriminating in that respect as human ears are in judging the end results, sonically. As long as the former receives what it needs to operate, in terms of its basic functionality, it will work, but not necessarily optimally.
However, quite clearly to many discerning people, power supply quality is a valid consideration, in terms of the FINAL sonic results obtained from audio, which is precisely the whole point. At the end of the day, it's the end result (what one genuinely hears) that matters most, not superficial scientific theories :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
10-11-2011, 14:47
One of the reasons I have a collection of CD players ( a few for their lasers for better players I have) is so I will be able to play CDs for the foreseeable future.
I am a physical media kind of guy and as such I will continue to buy such as long as I can from new and s/h when that is all I can buy. There is so much music from the age of early digital backwards that I have yet to hear that whether I buy new music or not (much of which is terrible from an artistic point of view and lacking in quality from a recording pov), that I am probably going to be very hard pressed to run out of music to buy.
So as long as I can buy music 'new to me' on some sort of physical medium be it vinyl or CD, even tape then I will be happy.
Regards D S D L
So as long as I can buy music 'new to me' on some sort of physical medium be it vinyl or CD, even tape then I will be happy.
Indeed! The "new to me" bit is the crucial part :)
Marco.
I am not able to spend £0000s on CD or File Based Audio, but IN MY OPINION playing the same track from my very modest laptop setup into the Caiman is preferable to playing it on my CD player - either direct, or into the same DAC.
There are logical reasons why this should be so - in the main, the data is "fixed" when transferred from a file. One of the things you realise when you rip a large library, is that a lot of the CDs you happily play in a CD player are riddled with errors, which are removed at the ripping stage. Thus, once in a file format, you are always sending accurate data to the DAC. If you are also able to play from RAM rather than the HDD, I also believe it sounds better, and power supplies may well be less of an issue?
Yes - I love the physical packaging, and the ritual of records and CD, but for me the simple answer is that I will forego all that as File Based Audio in my situation sounds better. At the end of the day, it is the sound quality that matters, right? I'd still rather have the CD as a backup, though!
I don’t have time for this atm but here on AoS I’m about as far from “analogue-audiophiles” as this forum gets.
I don’t profess to have the greatest hearing or vast experience in listening to other systems. However, I know my system and while I’m the first to admit there is no night and day differences in many of these tweaks, when you add a lot of negligible changes together you can end up with something significant.
The thing is, while I struggle to hear a difference between various power amps for example I can hear the difference a linear supply makes to my USB Dac.
There are a few obvious reasons why this might be given the limitations of some USB controllers and the particular power arrangement I have.
Then there is also the question of whether the feeding of SMPS noise back into your mains supply is in fact audible.
My approach has been cover all bases if possible whether or not the science and current understanding makes it a rational decision.
The simplest test I can think of regarding these audiophool computer based tweaks is a comparison between a high quality sound card in a tower cased PC running say windows and a stripped out laptop running say linux into an identical system. If you can’t hear any difference then all the computer based tweakery can be dismissed; if however you can hear a difference then where do you start and stop given according to the “bits are bits”advocates no differences should be apparent?
What baffles me is which audiophoolery people choose to believe in and which gets dismissed. For example, the whole notion of voicing amplifiers leaves me head scratching from personal experience and what little I understand about how a correctly designed amp functions. I could say for example an amp either does or doesn’t produce a Watt which is all the speaker is interested in particularly bearing in mind a passive crossover will make mincemeat of any fine tuning if it is indeed possible.
Hi Alex,
There are logical reasons why this should be so - in the main, the data is "fixed" when transferred from a file. One of the things you realise when you rip a large library, is that a lot of the CDs you happily play in a CD player are riddled with errors, which are removed at the ripping stage. Thus, once in a file format, you are always sending accurate data to the DAC.
I completely agree, and it is indeed the results of my experience so far.
However, what you describe is precisely why 'cost no object' CDPs, in their heyday, had very high-quality, over-engineered to within an inch of their lives, transport mechanisms....
It is also precisely why, with my vintage Sony CDP (and its highly accurate transport mechanism, as described above) I don't encounter the differences you do between CD replay quality and that of the ripped or streamed version, which is why so far I've been in no hurry to move to a streaming set-up... ;)
I can assure you that it's got bugger all to do with being intransigent, or a luddite. I will ONLY move to using new technology if to my ears it is unquestionably sonically superior. *That* will always be the bottom line.
Most affordable modern CDPs, in that respect though, are a joke!
Marco.
Before I go shopping :(
Regarding spending money on Hi Fi.
I’ve spent around £1200 on my server project over many months. I’m not particularly well off but I don’t drink or smoke (yea! :)) and I’m lucky in that I can get a lot of the computer based bits and some electronic components cheap or free. There is a great source of computer components generated by the same upgraditus in the computer gaming community as there is for Hi Fi stuff in the audiophile community.
I do the majority of the work myself with limited ability and tooling.
It keeps me out of trouble and I enjoy it ;)
Oh arr, forgot to add my server pisses all over any CD player I've heard.
Then there is also the question of whether the feeding of SMPS noise back into your mains supply is in fact audible.
Experience so far tells me that it is - and easily so!
Indeed, even although my system components contain no SMPS units, I still have had to take significant steps in order to isolate (as far as possible) the sonically detrimental effects of digital noise (from my CDP and DAC), both of which use high-quality linear power supplies, from the rest of my system, so goodness knows what it would be like if there were less than top-quality SMPS units in use somewhere in the replay chain!
My approach has been cover all bases if possible whether or not the science and current understanding makes it a rational decision.
Respect, and ditto :)
The simplest test I can think of regarding these audiophool computer based tweaks is a comparison between a high quality sound card in a tower cased PC running say windows and a stripped out laptop running say linux into an identical system. If you can’t hear any difference then all the computer based tweakery can be dismissed; if however you can hear a difference then where do you start and stop given according to the “bits are bits”advocates no differences should be apparent?
That's a very good point ;)
What baffles me is which audiophoolery people choose to believe in and which gets dismissed. For example, the whole notion of voicing amplifiers leaves me head scratching from personal experience and what little I understand about how a correctly designed amp functions. I could say for example an amp either does or doesn’t produce a Watt which is all the speaker is interested in particularly bearing in mind a passive crossover will make mincemeat of any fine tuning if it is indeed possible.
For me, it's a relatively easy one to answer. It's simply the case that, so far, you've not had significant (and easily heard) differences between amplifiers demonstrated to you, whereas, you have had with the differences you've experienced and applied, for example, to optimising the sonic results of computer audio equipment, and the 'infrastructure' in which it needs to operate optimally.
If you lived closer, John, I'd feel very confident of being able to demonstrate those amplifier differences to you, and all it would take is to bring the transistor amp of your choice and compare it to the Copper amp, in my system....
However, an invaluable skill, which you have in your favour, is an enquiring mind and the ability to see the bigger picture and think 'outside of the box', as you have ably demonstrated with your DIY work in both loudspeaker and computer audio equipment design.
And it is precisely those skills which, when presented with a viable opportunity, will allow you to understand that which seemingly baffles you now about the behaviour of amplifiers! :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
10-11-2011, 17:20
What baffles me is which audiophoolery people choose to believe in and which gets dismissed. For example, the whole notion of voicing amplifiers leaves me head scratching from personal experience and what little I understand about how a correctly designed amp functions. I could say for example an amp either does or doesn’t produce a Watt which is all the speaker is interested in particularly bearing in mind a passive crossover will make mincemeat of any fine tuning if it is indeed possible.
Audio is a very broad church. One person's audiophoolery is another's incontrovertible truth. There are those who would be able to hear differences in amplifiers who would never be able to process the difference between linear and switch mode supplies as they relate to a USB converter.
In part, it's how close someone gets to a particular aspect of audio. You have patently spent time listening to the difference between linear and switch mode supplies and less listening to amplifiers. A power amp designer might spend a great deal of time listening to power amps and hear the differences right down to the component level.
This also changes with time and interest. So what you might dismiss as audiophool tweakery today you might end up being perfectly able to hear if and when that aspect of audio falls within your purview of interest.
The lookout here is you can become so focused on the minutiae that you get a too-narrow view that runs contrary to baseline reality - if you've spent half a year listening to equipment tables that you can repeatedly and consistently spot the different between two otherwise very similar equipment platforms, have you become highly 'precise' or too 'narrow'? If, after this assessment phase you can no longer hear this kind of difference, does it still count?
In part, it's how close someone gets to a particular aspect of audio. You have patently spent time listening to the difference between linear and switch mode supplies and less listening to amplifiers. A power amp designer might spend a great deal of time listening to power amps and hear the differences right down to the component level.
Nicely put, Alan. That's exactly what I was trying to convey to John. Quite simply, there is NO substitute for experience :)
I've experimented at length, like you wouldn't believe, (albeit at a subjective level) with the sonic effect the mains supply (and components associated with such) has on the performance of audio equipment, so I'm very "close" indeed to that aspect of audio, as I am indeed to the audible effect and sonic advantages of specialist equipment supports and cables.
Marco.
Lodgesound
10-11-2011, 17:55
I think it is very easy to forget just how recently home computers have become as powerful, capacious and affordable as they are today.
Even 8 or 9 years ago I would never have considered putting even large volumes of audio data on a home PC and keeping it there for general use purely on the grounds of cost-per-gigabyte of hard disk space.
It was only around 2003 that hard disks became so much more affordable and at the same time more capacious - back then a 250 gb hard drive cost around £300 and was a massive leap from the previous year where a 120 gb hard drive cost around the same.
The point of the above is this - I have to agree entirely with Marco in that good design of machinery applies throughout. Digital tape machines when I first used them in the industry cost tens of thousands of pounds and that money was NOT only spent in the A/D D/A stages I can assure you. The multi track open reels we used cost 60 grand and had power supplies you would'nt believe and why.....because all those digital circuits drew one hell of a lot of current and needed to be very very stable to prevent errors (the equivalent of tape hiss and dropouts in the analogue world of recording that preceeded it).
It is very very easy to take PC technology for granted but in reality we are getting one hell of a machine for almost throw away money. Couple that with software and you can build an entire Audio / Video post production facility for less than 2 grand now.
The problems come as always when one wishes to get the signal out of the box and into your ears and here, as most have found on this forum, most computers on their own are WOEFULLY inadequate on the quality stakes. This is simply because they are not designed with really high quality output in mind.
This is where high quality interfaces come in such as the Caiman (which can be considered as such) and much higher end units such as those made by MOTU and Prism which sort out the extraction and conversion of data from computers into the outside world for monitoring, mixing, quality evaluation and delivery to other formats. Such professional interfaces start at around 800 - 1000 pounds and can go much higher when used in facilities such as film dubbing studios.
They are the modern equivalent of ultra high end tape recording machines and are critically designed throughout - the great thing is that they will link to almost any standard computer platform turning it into the audio device that you would wish it to be.
The point of the above is this - I have to agree entirely with Marco in that good design of machinery applies throughout.
The problems come as always when one wishes to get the signal out of the box and into your ears and here, as most have found on this forum, most computers on their own are WOEFULLY inadequate on the quality stakes. This is simply because they are not designed with really high quality output in mind.
I completely agree, Stewart, and you have the relevant experience in the professional industry to back it up!
On another note, the problem is, it's all too easy to dismiss as "foo" that which doesn't conform to the principles of one's ingrained belief system, scientific or otherwise, even if it often appears to make sound engineering (as well as common) sense... ;)
Marco.
There seems to be a lot more room for development with regard to streaming from computers. Although I've never heard one, async USB converters have taken it up a notch or two in recent times. Many people have reported an audible difference for example with jkeny's hiface devices.
Marco
You never know Marco, one day I may just give you that opportunity. It is indeed a shame you live so far. It’s a bit of a journey; not so much in miles but in time to get up your way from Bristol. Thank you for not just this offer but all the offers of hospitality you’ve extended in the past. I’m beginning to feel churlish for not taking you up on your offer but it would make for a very long day :)
Alan
Well Alan it’s all your fault now I come to recall your review of one of the HRT offerings.
I accept what both you and Marco write about the area of concentration and what this may do to ones ability to discern subtle differences.
Okay, I’ll fex up, I’m slightly obsessed with the two extreme ends of audio reproduction and do tend to view a Watt as a Watt when it comes to the stuff in the middle. I can only think of two amplifiers I have immediately thought, yep, that’s different, the NuForce 9 series which I’ve heard in my system and the NAD M2 which I’ve heard a few times now but not in my system unfortunately.
Clive.
I’m going to reply to your question elsewhere when I can find the bloody thread I’m looking for. It is an interesting point and one which I’ve been messing about with for a while now.
WOStantonCS100
11-11-2011, 02:13
What I don't see with CD, that is plainly evident with vinyl (even tape), is fanaticism. The t-shirts. The audiophile clubs. The forums. The specialty labels and manufacturers. The DIY'ers. Record Store Day. Fanaticism can keep almost anything going far beyond it's proclaimed passing, as has been proven already in the case of vinyl. If CD had that kind of fanatical following, then I would hold out more hope for it as a medium.
Canetoad
11-11-2011, 08:15
What I don't see with CD, that is plainly evident with vinyl (even tape), is fanaticism. The t-shirts. The audiophile clubs. The forums. The specialty labels and manufacturers. The DIY'ers. Record Store Day. Fanaticism can keep almost anything going far beyond it's proclaimed passing, as has been proven already in the case of vinyl. If CD had that kind of fanatical following, then I would hold out more hope for it as a medium.
A lot of that fanaticism probably happened after CD took over from vinyl. I would expect it to happen if CD was abolished as well.
I'm not sure, Bernie.
A plastic disc in a (more often than not) plastic jewel case, just doesn't cut it in the same way as a lovely slab of vinyl with a cool record label, often accompanied by beautifully colourful and artistic gatefold and record sleeves.
People don't love physical CDs as much as they do records. There's a whole level of tactility and 'coolness' about vinyl that CD never had, and never will have.
Therefore, there's no chance of there being the fanaticism attached to CD, Biff refers to, which vinyl has enjoyed not only when it existed as the main music format, but since it has been supposedly phased out.
Testament to this fact is the way that today's kids see vinyl (and turntables) as being cool. I doubt they would ever feel that way about CD or CD players. No, when CD eventually dies, it will die a permanent death. So when that happens, goodbye CD, long live vinyl! :cool:
Marco.
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 08:54
What fanaticism? As it stands, you cannot get the same level of detail out of digital music as you can out of vinyl. You can get close to it even in musicality, but at a hefty price.
Similarly, you cannot get the same level of signal to noise ratio, and even musicality, out of music downloads as you can get from a CD. I have compared many downloads against their CD equivalent, and noticed how much flatter the downloads sound.
Granted, a couple of earbuds plugged at one end into a portable player and at the other end into your ears does not require that kind of level of musicality and quietness. Few new music lovers would have heard how good music used to sound on even basic audio equipment. So for them the convenience is the key issue. The real connoisseurs of audio equipment abilities can be compared to connoisseurs of vintage wine and oil paintings. The modern folks are into mp3, digital photography, and Australian or Californian wine.
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 09:03
What fanaticism? As it stands, you cannot get the same level of detail out of digital music as you can out of vinyl. You can get close to it even in musicality, but at a hefty price.
Similarly, you cannot get the same level of signal to noise ratio, and even musicality, out of music downloads as you can get from a CD. I have compared many downloads against their CD equivalent, and noticed how much flatter the downloads sound.
Granted, a couple of earbuds plugged at one end into a portable player and at the other end into your ears does not require that kind of level of musicality and quietness. Few new music lovers would have heard how good music used to sound on even basic audio equipment. So for them the convenience is the key issue. The real connoisseurs of audio equipment abilities can be compared to connoisseurs of vintage wine and oil paintings. The modern folks are into mp3, digital photography, and Australian or Californian wine.
I've not seen many downloads actually at CD bit depths and sample rates.
Which ones are you referring to Stan?
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 09:18
I've not seen many downloads actually at CD bit depths and sample rates.
Which ones are you referring to Stan?
I got the whole collection of Hotel California in vinyl, CD, 44.1, 96, 192, etc format. I have most of the Sade stuff in various formats. I have many more that are too numerous to mention. Not every download came via UK accessible sites however. I do have generous customers in even some dark corners of the world who would want me to hear a certain nuance or odd playback outcome in a particular musical track in their possession. Many take their time to furnish me with the ability to listen to the track in question ;).
As part of my design work I compare formats against each other in real time, using the same tune. That's what allows me to pick up the obvious differences. There could be more that don't register with me, but that's a new topic in its own right.
Hi Stan,
Similarly, you cannot get the same level of signal to noise ratio, and even musicality, out of music downloads as you can get from a CD. I have compared many downloads against their CD equivalent, and noticed how much flatter the downloads sound.
With hi-res downloads, too? Aside from the latter, I concur with your findings. However, I'm not sure how much of that is attributable to the quality of the downloads themselves, or the limitations of the partnering computer hardware and its associated 'noisy infrastructure'.......
Few new music lovers would have heard how good music used to sound on even basic audio equipment. So for them the convenience is the key issue.
That's a very good point, and one I entirely agree with. It's back to the old benchmark thing. Quite simply, it depends on what you're used to.
There's a whole generation of audio enthusiasts and music lovers out there who likely haven't exprienced the standards of sound quality from their systems that you and I take for granted, particularly from vinyl.
People may think that Heinz Spaghetti Hoops represent Italian cuisine, if that's all they've had, but only upon tasting the real thing do they realise what they've been missing!
The real connoisseurs of audio equipment abilities can be compared to connoisseurs of vintage wine and oil paintings. The modern folks are into mp3, digital photography, and Australian or Californian wine.
That's an astute, although some may say rather elitist, observation. It is, however, based on a not inconsiderate amount of truth ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 09:57
Marco, granted the high res audio files are limited in their ability to achieve the same level of performance as CD due to hardware limitation. But at the end of the day both hardware and software go hand in hand. My/your amp and speakers don't care what method is used to feed the music into the audio reproduction chain. What our amp and speakers do ask from us however is that we use the best possible method within the options available to us, if we really want the best from our audio system.
Canetoad
11-11-2011, 09:58
I'm not sure, Bernie.
A plastic disc in a (more often than not) plastic jewel case, just doesn't cut it in the same way as a lovely slab of vinyl with a cool record label, often accompanied by beautifully colourful and artistic gatefold and record sleeves.
People don't love physical CDs as much as they do records. There's a whole level of tactility and 'coolness' about vinyl that CD never had, and never will have.
Therefore, there's no chance of there being the fanaticism attached to CD, Biff refers to, which vinyl has enjoyed not only when it existed as the main music format, but since it has been supposedly phased out.
Testament to this fact is the way that today's kids see vinyl (and turntables) as being cool. I doubt they would ever feel that way about CD or CD players. No, when CD eventually dies, it will die a permanent death. So when that happens, goodbye CD, long live vinyl! :cool:
Marco.
Marco, You're assuming that the reason vinyl is "cool" is due to quality of reproduction. I'm sure that is true for a percentage of the younger generation getting into vinyl but I think for a lot it is the novelty value of owning and using vintage reproduction equipment.
I'm just extrapulating this idea to cover CD if and when it becomes "cool" to have a retro setup in your pad and a library of albums to play. After all, given the quality of some of the 2nd hand vinyl out there these days, CD is probably more durable and so less of a gamble on condition.
Just my opinion. :)
Marco, You're assuming that the reason vinyl is "cool" is due to quality of reproduction...
Not only that, mate, but the superior quality and tactility of the whole physical package one gets to own, as I have mentioned.
However, you've raised a different, and also interesting point, and one which I also agree with :)
Marco.
Marco, granted the high res audio files are limited in their ability to achieve the same level of performance as CD due to hardware limitation. But at the end of the day both hardware and software go hand in hand. My/your amp and speakers don't care what method is used to feed the music into the audio reproduction chain. What our amp and speakers do ask from us however is that we use the best possible method within the options available to us, if we really want the best from our audio system.
I agree, but TBH, I don't think that either of us has yet heard computer audio at its best. I certainly haven't, and therefore I'd hesitate to so quickly dismiss it when my experience to date doesn't warrant that way of thinking :)
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
11-11-2011, 10:17
Marco, You're assuming that the reason vinyl is "cool" is due to quality of reproduction. I'm sure that is true for a percentage of the younger generation getting into vinyl but I think for a lot it is the novelty value of owning and using vintage reproduction equipment.
I'm just extrapulating this idea to cover CD if and when it becomes "cool" to have a retro setup in your pad and a library of albums to play. After all, given the quality of some of the 2nd hand vinyl out there these days, CD is probably more durable and so less of a gamble on condition.
Just my opinion. :)
I still have very good luck with 2nd hand vinyl; but, I also just purchased a shite-ton of brand new vinyl, both new releases and re-issues. With vinyl still in production, the pool of possibly good 2nd hand vinyl grows as well.
If I may regress to an early post... The fanaticism has to be driven by something more than just a format's impending disappearance from vogue. It must have intrinsic value that can't easily be duplicated physically, audibly and visually. This is where the CD has an enormous hurtle.
Even in the "dark days" of vinyl, the DJ community and the Hip Hop culture kept vinyl (and the 1200!) profitable. I don't see any group of any financial consequence championing CD as it has now entered it's "dark days". That may spell the difference.
Sound-wise CD's have another serious problem previously eluded to. They fall in no man's land. They aren't good enough for those who want hi-def nor are they convenient enough for those that want to shove a bazillion "tunes" in their pocket. What that sounds like is a recipe for disaster.
Don't get me wrong, I don't "hate" CD's. If it's the only way I can get the music then so be it. I am after all a music junkie. But, I just got Peter Gabriel Us on vinyl and the CD is on it's way out the door. ;)
Mark Grant
11-11-2011, 10:17
If you don't own a pc or i phone etc, how will you be able to buy music if it's only downloadable?
Just what I was thinking.
My Dad who is in his 70's buys CD's occasionally while doing his weekly shopping at Morrisons and also any bargain CD's he sees in any charity shop.
At home he does not have a computer or any internet access at all, he has no interest in it.
He's getting old, is very unwell and all he has to pass the time are his music CD's and films on DVD.
Father in law is just the same, no computer or Internet access and he buys CD's to listen to on his Bose all in one thing that he is perfectly happy with.
What would I buy them for Christmas if there where no CD's in the shops, a download voucher would hardly be the same :rolleyes:
Excellent points, Biff and Mark!
Hi Griffo,
Having used my PS3 for Lovefilm, why bother even going to the hassle of walking to your nearest post box or buying the film when you can have streamed direct to your TV as and when you want it.
Dear oh dear, oh dear...... :rolleyes:
Another reason to yet further 'zombify' our current sedentary, generally lazy and obese society, who already find themselves, through their lifestyle choices, dehumanised by and subservient to technology. And often also, through physical inactivity (and a junk-food diet), with a backside as big as a bus....!
No-one wants to move off of their arses to do anything anymore. Everything has to land on their bloody laps!! :doh:
Let's hope that when what you describe happens, streaming keep-fit videos becomes as popular as obtaining the latest movie 'blockbusters'!! ;)
Marco.
Canetoad
11-11-2011, 11:22
Understanding of the technology won't be required. Buy a decoder (including license fee), plug it into your broadband and play whatever you like from a "cloud" online. For portability you'll be able to do the same thing from your mobile phone. The app will do all the hard work and no need for local storage other than RAM for playpack buffer.
StanleyB
11-11-2011, 11:47
I blame Ann Summers for giving us the idea that convenience and instant gratification do not require a more complicated method of approach to solve the problem.
:lolsign: :lolsign:
Marco.
I have read some of the previous comments and agree to some extent. However having tried a few experiments using my lap top with a couple of different dacs compared to playing the same CD in the stand alone player I have preferred the CD player.
The CDs were ripped to the hard drive using exact audio copy and played back using a demo version of pure music, better than iTunes.
I would be very dismayed to see the demise of CDs as they offer a huge range of music unavailable in any other format and can often be bought for a really good price.
Sure vinyl does sound more real has greater spatial information etc; but some stuff just does not exist in vinyl format.
I agree some modern CDs are of dubious recording quality but some are excellent. Eg. jazz on ECM and a lot of classical releases. I have bought quite a few blue note be bop albums "re-mastered" CDs for around £4, which sound excellent. I posses a few re-mastered vinyl examples, from the 80's and 90's, of the same CDs - they compare very favorably.
I guess if all this music becomes available on hi-res download then possibly CD will be come defunct - but are we all going to buy everything again at premium cost? A lot of the muzak Linn offers at inflated prices is pretty unappealing.
I have compared dvd audio ripped to HD, long thought to be the best source, (until blue ray) to CD and have struggled to hear the difference. Cloth ears you say, but it was not just me.
Not sure where this is all going - only to say I hope CDs don't disappear. I will always (almost) prefer to listen to my vinyl set up. But at risk of repeating myself newer music releases whether classical, world, jazz, tend to be on CD only.
I know new music does come out on vinyl and some bands of late such as; Wilco, bad plus, alison krauss, miriam & amanduo have released music on vinyl, with a complementary CD or CD download, which has been welcome.
The way I see it hi-res downloads will have to expand massively to get a decent range of titles and will require a huge investment for collectors plus a very high quality dac to better a good CD player. Also ripping a CD collection to hard drive is quite a palaver - but it would be nice to be able to play back on shuffle from a lap top. I remain to be convinced that CDs ripped to a HD will better a (good) CD player.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 18:31
Testament to this fact is the way that today's kids see vinyl (and turntables) as being cool. I doubt they would ever feel that way about CD or CD players. No, when CD eventually dies, it will die a permanent death. So when that happens, goodbye CD, long live vinyl! :cool:
Marco.
I have to disagree with this ;) While mainstream pop may well (though I still can't see it in all honesty) disappear, there are a heck of a lot of small record labels knocking out limited edition CDs which a good few people find collectable as well as damn good music.
One company I could name would never produce another vinyl recording & while there have been a few digital downloads made available the bulk of sales is CD based.
The idea of going over to downloads is patently flawed as they can be copied without any media that would give the game away at all such as a CDR. Is a person that has built up a huge download collection meant to keep all their bank statements back to I don't know when, so they can prove that they actually bought the download?
A CD in a case is proof positive that nothing has been stolen.
Like I say, I can't see CDs dieing :)
If record companies can agree on the ownership problems of digital media then CD might pass away. For example a few years ago i traded my PS3 in for PS3 slim for a number of reasons. I had a couple of games I had downloaded from the Playstation store and was able to just re download the onto my new machine from the Playstation Network (okay it all went south when it was hacked but thats another story. So for example if my original PS3 had died on me I would always have been able to get the stuff I paid for back.
I cant see record companies agreeing on a similar type of thing for a number of copy right issues.
As mentioned earlier the download quality is sub standard for mainstream stuff. When full res downloads are made readily available then I might download albums . I would be inclined to made a CD or DVD copy though just in case.
I have to disagree with this... While mainstream pop may well (though I still can't see it in all honesty) disappear, there are a heck of a lot of small record labels knocking out limited edition CDs which a good few people find collectable as well as damn good music.
Lol - ok, mate....
Me earlier:
No, when CD eventually dies, it will die a permanent death. So when that happens, goodbye CD, long live vinyl!
Change the "when" (above) instead to "if", and the point I was making still stands :)
However, I still believe that CD will eventually become defunct, simply because when the companies involved in the disc manufacturing process pull out through lack of demand for the product there will be no other choice! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 20:28
There are still a hell of a lot of other things other than music that go onto CD ROMs Marco ;) I can't think of a single thing other than music that gets pressed onto vinyl? :scratch: Yet vinyl is still with us....
Nope, CD won't die for a hell of a long time :eyebrows: There will always be pressing plants for DVDs, Blu Rays etc & these can quite easily knock up CDs to.
I just purchased two CDs today, both of them are limited editions of only 300 units ;) Now how much do you think it'd cost to tool up just for two runs of 300 CDs in each? The CDs cost me 15 & 25 Euro respectively, the more expensive one has a DTS disc in 5.1 surround & a standard 2 channel CD.
If manufacturers can afford to press runs of 300 at a normal price then CDs are far from dead :)
There are still a hell of a lot of other things other than music that go onto CD ROMs Marco...
Nope, CD won't die for a hell of a long time. There will always be pressing plants for DVDs, Blu Rays etc & these can quite easily knock up CDs to.
Yes, Mark, but you're presuming that new technology won't be invented (if indeed it hasn't been already) that results in the DVDs, Blu Rays, etc, you mention no longer requiring to be viewed via physical media...
What happens, then? ;)
I'm no expert on movies, but Griffo mentioned earlier about stuff being 'streamed' directly into your home, so if that were to become the norm, how do you think that would impact on the point you're making about disc production?
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 21:09
Marco, until 100Mb broadband comes about then blu rays will still look better than streamed films...
Your arguement about CDs being eradicated seems illogical seing as vinyl is still here :lol:
Yet you can't see this? :scratch: Odd indeed as I'd expect vinyl to die because of downloads & the fact you can't record to it.
So you see I can't see how it'll die out, after all logic dictates that vinyl should before CD does :cool:
As I mentioned in the previous post, if the pressing plant can knock out two runs of only 300 CDs, & the guy that makes the music makes a profit then there will still be people & pressing plants willing to do it.
E2A:- I'm sure that a lot of music that is available on records is also available by streamed media! Doesn't stop people making records though now does it!
Marco, until 100Mb broadband comes about then blu rays will still look better than streamed films...
And you know for sure how long that process will take?
And anyway, that's not the point. It's got nothing to do with what looks better - it's about what viewing method and/or device for films will become the norm in people's homes in future, and that will be determined by what the major industry players and Joe Public wants, not you or I. Picture quality won't necessarily come into it.
In the old days, VHS didn't triumph over Betamax because the picture it produced looked better ;)
Your arguement about CDs being eradicated seems illogical seing as vinyl is still here
No it's not because, as Biff correctly said earlier (you really should read his excellent post thoroughly), vinyl largely still exists because of the fanaticism of its most ardent fans. CD, in that respect, has no such fan base. Therefore, it is largely because of this fanaticism that vinyl is still here, and that fanaticism isn't likely to go away anytime soon.
And without a similar fan base (or fanaticism) to keep CD alive, once there is no longer the need to manufacture discs for either music or movies (and technology dictates that this will happen, and likely sooner, rather than later), then CD, my friend, will be :deceased:
Marco.
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 21:18
Your arguement about CDs being eradicated seems illogical seing as vinyl is still here :lol:
Vinyl playback equipment can be made by any competent machining engineer.
CD mechanisms are not exactly build it yourself affairs.
Because of this optical disc playback will last and be supported for as long as there are big players manufacturing mechanisms.
As soon as they stop making 'em then the nails will start to be driven into the coffin lid.....
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 21:21
Chris, I kind of notice that all my blu ray players will play CDs & DVDs... It's called reverse compatablity ;)
CD mechanisms are not exactly build it yourself affairs.
Because of this optical disc playback will last and be supported for as long as there are big players manufacturing mechanisms.
As soon as they stop making 'em then the nails will start to be driven into the coffin lid.....
Another very valid point, Chris. At the moment, my argument is concentrated on the future of the discs themselves, however it could just as easily be focussed on the very uncertain future of CD mechanisms ;)
Chris, I kind of notice that all my blu ray players will play CDs & DVDs... It's called reverse compatablity...
Mark, how long do you think that the cheap plastic mechs on Blu Ray (or DVD) players are manufactured to last?
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 21:34
Marco, where did this cheap plastic thing come from?
Have you looked inside one of my players while I wasn't looking? I mean come on man, I can see you don't like digital media but I could say how long do you expect that expensive diamond to last :lol:
Put it like this, my so called cheap plastic mech will outlast your expensive diamond :cool:
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 21:36
Chris, I kind of notice that all my blu ray players will play CDs & DVDs... It's called reverse compatablity ;)
My comments covered all manufacturers of optical disc playback mechanisms.
Mechanisms will only be made for as long as there is sufficient demand.
And I predict that there will not be a next format to emerge that is optical disc based.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 21:40
And I predict that there will not be a next format to emerge that is optical disc based.
So you are Nostrodamus now eh? :eyebrows:
There is already research & has been for a while now of optical discs that will store more than 1Tb of data & this is using present day laser technology, not some UV laser or somesuch thing.
You are of course entitled to you own opinion, or should I say prediction :)
Vinyl playback equipment can be made by any competent machining engineer.
CD mechanisms are not exactly build it yourself affairs.
Because of this optical disc playback will last and be supported for as long as there are big players manufacturing mechanisms.
As soon as they stop making 'em then the nails will start to be driven into the coffin lid.....
Would that include the cartridge?
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 21:46
So you are Nostrodamus now eh? :eyebrows:
There is already research & has been for a while now of optical discs that will store more than 1Tb of data & this is using present day laser technology, not some UV laser or somesuch thing.
You are of course entitled to you own opinion, or should I say prediction :)
I'd be surprised to see any optical disc system like that landing on the consumer market.
You can live in hope ( just don't hold your breath waiting:eyebrows: ) :)
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 21:56
I'd be surprised to see any optical disc system like that landing on the consumer market.
You can live in hope ( just don't hold your breath waiting:eyebrows: ) :)
I notice that a CD sized 1Tb disc is a heck of a lot smaller than any 1Tb HDD out there.. Wouldn't be corrupted by magnetic fields or probably by dropping it etc & there isn't anything mechanical to wear out. Ok so we must assume that the disc layers are nicely sealed to prevent oxidisation... But HDDs are only good for about 5 years :eyebrows: I have CDs from the 80s which are 100% fine....
But maybe you are right ;)
Anyway, I'm not worried as it'll be a heck of a lot easier to transfer any CD I have to a HDD than any record would ever be if that goes down the pan ;)
Meanwhile I keep on enjoying my CDs thankyou... I'm off back to the music, I'll let what happens happens, I can't be bothered to carry on with this discussion in all honesty - lets just wait & see eh!
Marco, where did this cheap plastic thing come from?
Have you looked inside one of my players while I wasn't looking?
What else is the transport mech made of then? :)
Excuse my ignorance, but no Blu Ray player I've seen uses the type of massively over-engineered, all metal, transport mechanism that the likes of my Sony CDP has, or other players of its ilk.
Can you link to any pictures showing the quality of the mech on your Blu Ray player? I'm not saying you're wrong - I just need to see the evidence for myself, in order to be suitably educated.
I mean come on man, I can see you don't like digital media but I could say how long do you expect that expensive diamond to last :lol:
Au contraire, mon ami. I have nothing against digital media, done well. I listen to and enjoy CDs nearly as much as I do vinyl.
Put it like this, my so called cheap plastic mech will outlast your expensive diamond
But that's not the point. My argument is that 'expensive diamonds', and their associated MC cartridges, have a far rosier future than your Blu Ray or CD player, or the discs they use! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 22:04
Sorry Marco, I really can't be bothered to discuss this any more :eyebrows: It's a discussion that could go on until I'm sitting here as a virtual skeleton..
As below, lets just see what happens in the future shall we?
As this is a simple discussion please lets not get into thinking that there are winners or losers of the conversation :eyebrows: That will only be proven over time due to the nature of what is being discussed. It won't be about people either, just ideas ;)
Meanwhile I keep on enjoying my CDs thankyou... I'm off back to the music, I'll let what happens happens, I can't be bothered to carry on with this discussion in all honesty - lets just wait & see eh!
Thank you...
Lol, Mark, you're a character when you've had a shnifter or three!! :lol: ;)
Anyway, buddy, you enjoy the rest of your evening :cool:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
11-11-2011, 22:15
Cheers Marco :cool: I could just see one of those circular arguements/discussions arising once again & as no-one actually knows what the hell is actually going to happen, it seemed a tad pointless carrying in in all honesty :)
We are all mushrooms at the end of the day :lol:
Ok, in the dark at the least....
barrynoggins
11-11-2011, 23:05
The problem is, Joe Public who is fostering this environment doesn't care...
And therein lies the problem. I've been involved with print and graphics for years and this happened with images and photography a long time ago. If people are spoon fed *** for long enough they get used to it. I'm amazed the artists aren't more concerned. Must be a generation thing! I must admit though, you could put Coldplay in person in my living room - I still wouldn't listen to 'em!:)
Stratmangler
11-11-2011, 23:15
you could put Coldplay in person in my living room - I still wouldn't listen to 'em!:)
Me neither :cool:
I reckon CD will be about at least until I drop dead and that is all I give a f*ck about tbh. :)
bobbasrah
12-11-2011, 12:26
Beyond some of the more amusing comments and heated entrenchment, a good vinyl setup will IMHO always out-do a CD setup irrespective of the materials used in the player, how good the DAC implementation is, or whether it utilises better PSU's or special wotsits. I am happy that my computer gives as good audio as my DVD player with the ability to leaf through my musical collection with ease.
The gap has certainly closed with better DAC+audio stages and implementations on CDPs, but IMHO red-book sampling has always been the constraint, irrespective of whether we are theoretically incapable of hearing it.
The opportunity for the industry to up it's game was lost as greed and obsession over total control of the artist to machine chain ignored IT advances. From trying to criminalise LP to cassette copying, and throttling CD copy programs, their history has been one of media monopoly and yet they failed to exploit it where they could.
e.g. The industry royally screwed up SACD by overpricing it unnecessarily from the mainstream, to secure even higher profits than they obtained already from CD.
Artistes have realised that modern technology allows them to bypass the media empires, which would have 90+% of them financially survive on live gigs. Distribution was the only aspect they could not obtain, until the internet grew into the monster it is today.
These guys will still sell albums by DVD/CD, LP, RAM or download, well into the future, while the media industry drowns in a sea of legal bills trying to combat piracy, and a dwindling client base.
In an age where a pen-drive can carry 10+ Hi-Res albums, CD is already way past it's sell by date, and CDP's will become an inevitable curiosity alongside the Compact Cassette and VHS video player. I have all the above and boxes of cassettes I still cannot quite yet throw out....
Bob
Canetoad
12-11-2011, 13:07
No it's not because, as Biff correctly said earlier (you really should read his excellent post thoroughly), vinyl largely still exists because of the fanaticism of its most ardent fans. CD, in that respect, has no such fan base. Therefore, it is largely because of this fanaticism that vinyl is still here, and that fanaticism isn't likely to go away anytime soon.
And without a similar fan base (or fanaticism) to keep CD alive, once there is no longer the need to manufacture discs for either music or movies (and technology dictates that this will happen, and likely sooner, rather than later), then CD, my friend, will be :deceased:
Marco.
This I agree with, but I think a lot of the fanaticism happened AFTER vinyl was made obsolete by the CD. If and when CD goes, I am sure that there will still be a loyal fanbase out there to support it.
A case in point. MiniDisc is obsolete but there are still plenty of fans out there still supporting it. Blank MDs are still easy to get hold of, yet it's effectively a dinosaur.
morris_minor
18-11-2011, 16:24
This I agree with, but I think a lot of the fanaticism happened AFTER vinyl was made obsolete by the CD. If and when CD goes, I am sure that there will still be a loyal fanbase out there to support it.
A case in point. MiniDisc is obsolete but there are still plenty of fans out there still supporting it. Blank MDs are still easy to get hold of, yet it's effectively a dinosaur.
There are probably millions of people still playing cassettes. CD won't go away for decades, and it'll probably become a niche market in the same way vinyl has.
For all our views here, the sound quality aspect of music delivery is the very last thing on the mind of the major labels, as it has no bearing on how they make a profit.
For the record I have a foot both download/streaming and vinyl camps. For me CD is already dead: mine are all stored. I worried about the lack of a physical product when downloading, but having three copies of my music folder allays the backup fear, and I can get notes and information on the web when I want on the iPad - which also runs the controller (iPeng) for my Squeezeserver/Transporter etc.
I remember reading a review of the Transporter which said it was like the audio equivalent of polishing a turd - but added it really did work. It certainly does work for me. The only silver discs I spin are DVD (V and A) and SACD, and I don't buy any new ones any more .. ..
bobbasrah
19-11-2011, 10:18
For all our views here, the sound quality aspect of music delivery is the very last thing on the mind of the major labels, as it has no bearing on how they make a profit... ..
And this in a nutshell is what history will reflect, irrespective of what now follows. Not only will this period exemplify a lost opportunity in terms of advancing quality and the medium itself, but how far progress may be constrained by an industry obsessed over restricting hardware capabilities to monopolise the marketplace.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/business/media/10audio.html?ref=todayspaper
For all our views here, the sound quality aspect of music delivery is the very last thing on the mind of the major labels, as it has no bearing on how they make a profit.
Absolutely, I think we often forget that audiophiles make up a fraction of the music buying public. I work with hundreds of people and I think I am in a class of one when it comes to the amount of music I buy, or the type of equipment I play it on.... and I don't do vinyl either, that group is even smaller! (but growing, which is good to see).
Anyway, music's free isn't it?
Absolutely, I think we often forget that audiophiles make up a fraction of the music buying public. I work with hundreds of people and I think I am in a class of one when it comes to the amount of music I buy, or the type of equipment I play it on.... and I don't do vinyl either, that group is even smaller! (but growing, which is good to see).
A friend of mine manages a couple of young rock bands, 'The Subways' & 'The Duke Spirit', it's quite apparent from conversations I have with him that as far as most record companies are concerned we 'audiophiles' might as well not exist, as we represent such a small section of their consumer base. When I start talking about the relative qualities of FLAC vs Mp3 he looks at me as if I'm from the planet Zog ;)
It's also apparent that the record companies themselves are desperately trying to maximise their revenue from live gigs, and merchandise, for example 'The Subways' have been touring for nearly 2 years non stop. Their latest CD is up for sale for £8.99, and a poster of the album cover is £16.99 :eek:
Oh and you can get them to play in your house for £1,500, the poor kids must be knackered, they barely have time for songwriting etc...
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