Audio Research

[julesd68]

I haven't bought a bit of kit for at least a couple of weeks so am starting to get the urge again :eek:

Am considering an Audio Research power amp but have never heard any of their products.

They have the power I need but is there an Audio Research "house sound" as such?

Now to open a nice bottle of Pinot Noir ... :cheers:

[Reid Malenfant]

I can't comment on the power amps, though even the older models still go for decent money ;) The newer models can be extraordinarily expensive depending on the power output.

I have an Audio Research pre amp though & the only way I could describe it is neutral :eyebrows: If that sounds boring then take it from me that it's far from the truth. If something is on the recording & the front end is good then you'll hear what was on the recording, which is far from boring in reality :)

[DSJR]

The front panels are to die for and the casework and basic build quality is solid. They do seem to need the boutique components they often feature though and older power amps weren't always reliable in UK use.

SOME of their lesser loved oldie products actually do sound good (as in un-coloured) and I remember the SP14 and Classic 60 with great affection, despite the SP14 not having the added "warmth" of some of the all-valve models. The Classic 60 showed how "valve watts" go so much further than "solid state watts.."

My view only, but many of their all-valve products are extremely forgettable once the cachet of the brand name is taken away - I'm comparing with the Croft hybrids and E.A.R. here, which to me are rather better, even if Glenn's casework is merely "adequate" in comparison - in my opinion obviously and I am aware of the loyalty towards ARC products which is almost Naim-like. Another preamp, but I remember loving the clarity of an LS25 and Reference 2, but hating the obvious added warmth and "valve-glow" which just wasn't there in any source played through them.....

[Dingdong]

I used to own a VT130se. At the time I auditioned it against a Parasound HCA3500. It made a most pleasant sound, without any of that pipe n slippers nonsense. It started off driving a pair of QLN's and was then tried with some Totem Mani-2's before settling on ML SL3's. Sounded bloody marvelous with them all.
If I had the cash I'd definitley get another one, or maybe the VT150se's. I'll have to save my pennies I think.

[julesd68]

Thanks chaps!

I'm looking at a 120W solid state - a neutral presentation would be just perfect - I get the warmth I like from my valve pre and phono-stage but really need the watts to drive my speakers nicely ...

[hifi_dave]

The older models were frightenly unreliable, especially the power-amps and the sound was/is equalled by far less expensive home grown products.

Modern models are more reliable and if you can get them at knock down prices and you like the sound, then they might be worth a punt.

[Dingdong]

No idea about the ss amps. They aren't really known for them. If you like your 405 would a 909 be a possibility?

[julesd68]

No idea about the ss amps. They aren't really known for them. If you like your 405 would a 909 be a possibility?

Well, I had kind of rejected the idea for two reasons - from what I understand it would not necessarily be an upgrade from the 405-2 and there is a question mark over the Chinese build quality ...

Not that being made in China would put me off per se - after all my Consonance cdp and Puresound P10 are built in China to a very high standard!

[DSJR]

Get a 520F - the best of them all I'm told and easy to restore if necessary...

[julesd68]

Get a 520F - the best of them all I'm told and easy to restore if necessary...

Interesting - not a model I know. Might be difficult to find a nice one that has been looked after by a hi-fi enthusiast, not a pro user ...

[Barry]

Interesting - not a model I know. Might be difficult to find a nice one that has been looked after by a hi-fi enthusiast, not a pro user ...

I have a 520f, an ex-studio model in excellent condition, bought from a fellow member.

Used with a Mark Levinson preamp and emptied into B&W DM2A speakers, it is immensely authoritative as well as being acoustically neutral. If I had the courage, I would use it with my Quad ESLs.

They do appear from time to time on eBay, but condition is variable.

[jandl100]

Must confess that I am very wary of Audio Research kit.

20-odd years ago I bought a SP11/2 pre - you know, one of the legendary ARC bits of kit - it was nothing very special then, and would be promptly shown the door nowdays, imo.


..... I remember loving the clarity of an LS25 and Reference 2, but hating the obvious added warmth and "valve-glow" which just wasn't there in any source played through them.....

Yes - I hate to agree with Dave ;) - but I had a home dem of a LS25ii pre a few months ago. A seriously coloured device - more of a permanently on rose-tinted tone control than a serious pre-amp - and without much in the way of rez that was in-keeping with its price. Floated a good soundstage, though, but that was its only attraction to my ears.

[Dingdong]

I've never tried an AR pre. I ran a Wadia straight into the power amp.
I think the original question was about the AR solid state amps, though.
Is it possible to demo the AR amp before you commit your hard earned?

[julesd68]

I've never tried an AR pre. I ran a Wadia straight into the power amp.
I think the original question was about the AR solid state amps, though.
Is it possible to demo the AR amp before you commit your hard earned?

I don't think so - it's one of those punts in the dark ...

I am not so sure it's a good idea now, as there doesn't seem to be much of a scramble to buy these second-hand, and cannot afford to get stuck with it if it doesn't work out.

[Dingdong]

The ss amps tend to be largely ignored, I think, in favour of the valve amps. If I was having a punt it would have to be a huge bargain or something that I know I could easily sell on. Or both with a bit of luck.

[DSJR]

Back in the day (1990's), "the thing" was to partner an ARC bloat-box with a then harsh-toned Krell, which went right off the boil for a few years in the early 90's IMO. By the time of the FPB Krells (and possibly the range before with the "sliding-bias" lights on the front), the krell greatness had returned, which leads me to this -

If you want what I regard as a true classic amp with great grace, clarity and valve-like POWER and suthority (disregarding the watts-per-channel spec), then a Krell KSA80/80B (£1500 approx) and earlier (KSA50,100, KMA100 etc), FPB 300 (pre c.a.s.t.) at well under £4,000 would be well worth looking at. they're reliable, no doubt expensive to recap :) but IMO they were great designs I think.

Not forgetting Levinson's best too and HiFi Dave, who sold them from 1991 onwards (I think) will come up with some models to look out for - the two power amps around at the same time as the ML28 pre were anonymous looking large black blocks, but somically they were up there with the very best and could drive Maggies properly too... They were all but ignored over here because Absolute Sounds didn't import them (it was Path Premier) and their pet mag never got to review them I think.

[hifi_dave]

Hi-Fi News was not allowed allowed to review Levinson/Madrigal products for political reasons from the mid 90's but despite this, for a few years, Levinson outsold Krell in the UK.

Early Levinson was wonderful - the 28 and 25/26 pre's with the 29, 27.5 and 23 power-amps had all the tube attributes without the foibles.

[Barry]

If it is of interest to you, I have just written a user report of the Levinson No. 28 preamp for Neil's 'Adventures in High Fidelity Audio':

http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/04/11/2011/the-mark-levinson-no28-preamplifier-an-oldie-but-a-goodie/

I also have a Levinson No. 26 preamp used with the No. 25 phono stage, and consider that to be as good as the 28. It is more versatile, and was more expensive than the 28.

The Levinson preamp I use with the Quad 520f, is the ML10A. This is an early design having a limited choice of input/output options, none of which are balanced, but the combination of the Levinson with the Quad is superb. Never let it be said that all professional studio amplifiers are all about robustness and are lacking in finess.

[amsterdam]

Hi-Fi News was never allowed to review Levinson/Madrigal products for political reasons but despite this, for a few years, Levinson outsold Krell in the UK.

Early Levinson was wonderful - the 28 and 25/26 pre's with the 29, 27.5 and 23 power-amps had all the tube attributes without the foibles.

This wasn't the case at all. A number of Levinson/Madrigal products were reviewed in HFN (some quite favourably) during the 80/90s. This retrospective portrayal of Ricardo as some all controlling mafia don, are ridiculous.

[amsterdam]

Back in the day (1990's), "the thing" was to partner an ARC bloat-box with a then harsh-toned Krell, which went right off the boil for a few years in the early 90's IMO. By the time of the FPB Krells (and possibly the range before with the "sliding-bias" lights on the front), the krell greatness had returned, which leads me to this -

If you want what I regard as a true classic amp with great grace, clarity and valve-like POWER and suthority (disregarding the watts-per-channel spec), then a Krell KSA80/80B (£1500 approx) and earlier (KSA50,100, KMA100 etc), FPB 300 (pre c.a.s.t.) at well under £4,000 would be well worth looking at. they're reliable, no doubt expensive to recap :) but IMO they were great designs I think.

Not forgetting Levinson's best too and HiFi Dave, who sold them from 1991 onwards (I think) will come up with some models to look out for - the two power amps around at the same time as the ML28 pre were anonymous looking large black blocks, but somically they were up there with the very best and could drive Maggies properly too... They were all but ignored over here because Absolute Sounds didn't import them (it was Path Premier) and their pet mag never got to review them I think.

A cursory look through some back issues of HFN, quickly reveals a review from March 1991, of the Mark Levinson No29, by the then editor, Steve Harris. Obviously, under threat of advertising withdrawal & worse, Steve summed up his review of this Path Premier import, with:

'The No 29 is a fine product by any standard, and it represents the very best of fuss-free , no-nonsense high-end audio.' and 'this is a superbly-built and well-specified power amplifier which will provide an utterly dependable heart for many fine systems."

It's chilling, the power of commercial intimidation, isn't it.

[hifi_dave]

I can't remember the details but Hi-Fi News were refused all requests to review Madrigal products after they made some very poor judgements in the early 90's, which were technically incorrect. They tried all manner of threats and cajoling but were turned down after that.

Hi-Fi News was the only magazine on the Planet not to be given Madrigal products for review after they fell out with them.

When did I refer to my old pal Ricardo ???

[amsterdam]

I can't remember the details but Hi-Fi News were refused all requests to review Madrigal products after they made some very poor judgements in the early 90's, which were technically incorrect. They tried all manner of threats and cajoling but were turned down after that.

Hi-Fi News was the only magazine on the Planet not to be given Madrigal products for review after they fell out with them.

When did I refer to my old pal Ricardo ???

I don't know in what year this occurred, but certainly in 1993, when you (Radlett Audio) were regularly advertising Levinson, HFN were still reviewing Levinson/Madrigral products.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic Dave, but rather an old fashioned attempt at avoiding sweeping statements, that don't necessarily stand up to closer scrutiny. You didn't refer to Ricardo, but DSJR did directly refer to Absolute Sounds, with a not altogether subtle insinuation to their influence re HFN. Lets face it, this is not a new accusation regarding AS's alleged influence over the press - it's been going on for years.

[hifi_dave]

I repeat : After a fall out with Madrigal Labs in the mid 90's, Hi-Fi News were not allowed to review any of their products. They were the only magazine not to have access to new products. I don't want to get into specifics on this for very good reasons.

Many companies can exert great influence on the magazines - always have, always will. Anyone in the industry will back this up.

[amsterdam]

I repeat : After a fall out with Madrigal Labs in the early 90's, Hi-Fi News were not allowed to review any of their products. They were the only magazine not to have access to new products. I don't want to get into specifics on this for very good reasons.

Many companies can exert great influence on the magazines - always have, always will. Anyone in the industry will back this up.

I don't understand. This must have slipped the embargo...

Hi -Fi News & Record Review August 1996. Mark Levinson 333 review by Martin Colloms.

'The sound quality rating was a good one , but I feel that the 333 hasn't quite made it to the front rank despite the admirable effort which has gone into its extended development. Nonetheless I have no doubt that fine audio systems can be built with a 333 as a foundation, given a good match of supporting components and cables.'

[hifi_dave]

As I said, I don't want to get into specifics and I am vague about dates but it was after that.

[amsterdam]

Ok Dave

I'm quite prepared to believe that there were problems, and I've certainly got no axe to grind over the matter. My original objection was only to the blanket statements

'Hi-Fi News was never allowed to review Levinson/Madrigal products for political reasons' and Dave's 'They were all but ignored over here because Absolute Sounds didn't import them (it was Path Premier) and their pet mag never got to review them I think.'

which is downright misleading (although DSJR did add a proviso), when at least 8 reviews of such products can be found from the early to the late 90s.

No offence intended,

Your resident irritating pedant

[hifi_dave]

Unfortunately, unlike DSJR, I do not have a memory for exact dates and I was vague on such details. I have now corrected my previous posts where necessary.

[DSJR]

Jonathan, I have no doubt that Martin Colloms was ans still is a fine audio engineer - he's had enough bloody practice over the last forty years or so, but many of his revirews have to be read "between the lines," as only then could you begin to get a "true" picture of the product. I can't be specific, but so many of his reviews are coloured like this I remember and sometimes one has to follow trends as they change :)

[Barry]

Gentlemen - all this wranging over whether or not Hi-Fi News did, or did not, review Levinson gear is really beside the point, and of little help to the OP.

Given the vast experience of members here, would it not be best to canvas the opinions of those who actually use Levinson, Krell or Audio Research amplifiers?

Regards

[amsterdam]

Gentlemen - all this wranging over whether or not Hi-Fi News did, or did not, review Levinson gear is really beside the point, and of little help to the OP.

Given the vast experience of members here, would it not be best to canvas the opinions of those who actually use Levinson, Krell or Audio Research amplifiers?

Regards

I feel properly chastened.:(

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well I have experienced a couple of ARC's transistor power amps. The big D400 (200wpc) and the little D130 (130wpc). However, my opinion of them (and indeed all hi-fi) is, no doubt, seriously flawed because I've been the happy owner and user (for about 20 years) of one of the 'bloat-box preamps' that Dave seems to hate so much.

I'll tell you what I thought of the power amps anyway because no-one else seems to actually have any experience with them. The D400, I thought was very good indeed in the sense that it just seemed to get on with things without any fuss. Hearing it wasn't exactly a life changing experience (how many pieces of gear can you truthfully say that about?), but I thought it to be a good amp. I remember thinking that the bass was far, far better than I'd expected it might be and the imaging was on a par with anything I've ever heard. I'd think it would be the equal of any equivalents from Krell or Levinson of that period.

The little D130 had a lovely mid range and detailed treble, but the bass was a bit restrained, I thought.

Build quality of all ARC stuff is exemplary and the folks who work in the service department are not averse to discussing older products over the phone or by email in some detail.

[julesd68]

Thanks very much for all contributions, even the off topic ones were interesting!

General consensus is that a solid state AR amp is a bit of a punt in the dark,
so have turned attentions elsewhere - fingers crossed there is going to be a delivery Saturday morning :drool:

[Darren]

Thanks very much for all contributions, even the off topic ones were interesting!

General consensus is that a solid state AR amp is a bit of a punt in the dark,
so have turned attentions elsewhere - fingers crossed there is going to be a delivery Saturday morning :drool:

Do you have a secret? Tell it.....Spill the beans. Do it now. Do not wait.

[Barry]

Yes, come on Julian - don't be such a tease! ;)

Regards

[julesd68]

Well I have managed to unearth an Italian hybrid beast that was looking for a new home!

:gig:

The deal is not done yet so I don't want to jump the gun!

What am I going to tell the mrs? Yikes!!!

:deceased:

[julesd68]

I've been a bad boy!

:whippin:

A Unison Research Unico DM hybrid power amp has turned up at my home thanks to a very kind gentleman over there on the Wam. Looking forward to pumping its 150 watts into my Charios.

It is rather big - I think it is going to have to be put sideways on my rack!

I will of course post my findings later on in the week once I have had a chance to assess it properly. Will also try to do system pix!