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Covenant
03-11-2011, 17:29
Can we have a little information please Stan?

CanDAC
03-11-2011, 18:16
Yes Stan, more info please! I'm on the verge of trying the Audiolab MDAC and don't want to experience buyer's remorse. Thanks.

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 18:48
It's not in the feature and price range of the MDAC.
Basic specs are:
Two TOSLINK inputs
Two Coax inputs
One fixed Line output
One headphone output
Audio frequency range 0Hz to 20KHz.
Sampling freq. up to 192Khz

Other technical details:
No audio caps in the signal path between DAC chip and RCA/phono sockets.
No opamp output stage.
i.e. it is a fully passive output DAC.

Main mode of operation:
Manual Select
Auto Select
Stealth Mode
Hunt Mode

Power options:
External psu that is used like a battery charger.
Inbuilt battery low level warning in case anyone wishes to use it with a 12V battery.
Uses an enhanced version of the low noise VirtualDC circuit from the TC-7510, which means that there are no muting relays or muting transistors required in the DAC.

Low power consumption. Typically 70mA under most conditions.
Self levelling feet. Less than 170mm wide, and 220mm deep.

Price is not yet certain until I have an actual idea of the cost of production. But £125 excluding VAT and shipping is the aiming point.
Meant to replace the TC-7510 and Caiman+.
Not expected to be shipping till January due to some miscalculation in the delivery schedule. Was supposed to be ready in October...

Gazjam
03-11-2011, 19:32
Good luck with it Stan, sounds like a cracker :)

Reid Malenfant
03-11-2011, 19:47
Audio frequency range 0Hz to 20KHz.
Sampling freq. up to 192Khz
:scratch: Surely you mean nearly 0Hz to 90KHz+? I could understand it if you only had a maximum of 44.1KHz sampling frequency, but if it'll take sampling rates of 192KHz it should have an audio bandwidth of approximately half that no?

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 20:08
Most of the features are the ones that many people have requested, including the price point. Some features are unique to the Bushmaster, and might even be unique enough to have been patented since they were invented by me. I expect other designers to try to copy them however.
I'll go into more details about those features in due course, when the DAC is closer to launch date.

As for the question regarding the audio range: 20KHz is the upper frequency of the audio range. Anything above that has a different name ;).

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2011, 20:18
Good luck with it Stan man... Although I'm sure you don't need it! :)
What news of te headphone amp (or have I missed that else where :/)

Reid Malenfant
03-11-2011, 20:19
:lol: Ok, you got me there Stan ;) Bang to rights come to think of it :eyebrows:

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 20:33
What news of the headphone amp (or have I missed that else where :/)
As one visitor has already mentioned on AoS some weeks ago, he could hardly tell the difference between the Bushmaster's headphone output and a Graham Slee headamp. Of course, the visitor did not know he was playing with the Bushmaster since he had not seen any of my DACs in person before ;).

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2011, 21:21
I thought the 7520 was as good as the Nva job I once had, so that doesn't supprise me really ...
The caiman is excellent, although I don't have much to compare it too...

I thought you were making a dedicated headphone amp based on the gator ... Or summat??
There was a point you mentioned something about it when I said I thought my grados and caiman were a little to revealing of digitalness (for want of a much better description) when listening to spotify... You mentioned you had something in the pipeline that might help when I asked about using a different opamp, and that it was connected to a headphone amp you were building? Or did I miss understand??

I've been holding fire on getting any sort of dedicated headphone amp for work you see ... In case you bought something out and I experience, to quote, buyers remorse ;)

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 21:37
Oh THAT one. It is still on the card. I have the first prototype PCB in my office waiting for me to mount the components on it and then try it out for any final amendments.
But to be honest with you, I have a pile of designs lying about half or completely abandoned. The Caiman II has undergone two redesigns, but I was not happy with the projected bill of material cost, so I am back to the drawing board with that one. I might post some pics of the two rejected prototypes.
Due to the current and expected economic downturn I am trying to finish off the most urgent requests for new products. But wait till you hear the headamp on the Bushmaster. It is better than the Caiman version. The dedicated headamp is a couple of steps up from that.

Ant
03-11-2011, 22:21
Stanley, how dare you tease us?

I have only three words to say - pre and order

Me please :)



Ta,
Ant

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 22:34
I am being cautious for many reasons.
The Bushmaster is a minor statement DAC with some specs that knowledgeable DAC designers will want to have a peak at. But specs are one thing. Price has to be sensible and near impossible for anyone else to try to compete against.

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2011, 22:36
Projects on the back burner ... I know that feeling!
Well maybe I buy somthing cheap whilst I wait for you to get your arse in gear ;) hehe

Any thoughts on my minor digitalness issue...?
An opamp I might try? Etc?
Sorry to thread high jack?
It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't going to be in a system that the only digital source is spotify ...

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 22:39
Any thoughts on my minor digitalness issue...?
An opamp I might try? Etc?
Sorry to thread high jack?
It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't going to be in a system that the only digital source is spotify ...
You'll have to refresh my memory on that, or execute a reboot :).

The Vinyl Adventure
03-11-2011, 23:05
What, you can't remember every issue every customer has ever had?? I'm disappointed ;)
Yeah, sorry ...
Basically, when listening to spotify and some less well recorded music even from higher res stuff, with my grado sr325's I get a bit to much detail in the highs that emphasises the "digitalness"
I know the grados are supper detailed in this area ... But tey sound fine with most good well recorded cd quality stuff ... I just feel if I could take an edge off I would gain more than I would loose ... Ya with me?

StanleyB
03-11-2011, 23:20
If you are a handy soldering iron operator, change the two yellow 4.7nF caps on the Gator for say 3.3nF or even 2.2nF. Also use an AD826 opamp if yo aren't already.

Butuz
04-11-2011, 00:18
Keeping an eye on this thread :)

Butuz

The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2011, 08:21
That sounds like somthing I could do ...
I don't suppose you have a couple of appropriate caps I could p'chase p'chance :)
These things don't easily come to hand in my household :)

StanleyB
04-11-2011, 09:27
I shall have a look, but don't hold your breath. They are not values that I have fitted to anything.

The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2011, 11:28
The other option i suppose would be to sell the grados and get something smoother ... Its a hard one when i like everything else about them ... they just dont fit a very specific purpose that just so happens to be the main thing i want to use them for :doh:

... and cheers, that would be great, nbut dont worry to much

StanleyB
04-11-2011, 11:37
I have loads of headphones, and some of them are only used for specific functions. Last week I even bought two more to try out on the Bushmaster. One is the Audio Technika ATH-AD700, and the other is the Panasonic RP-HTF890.
So why sell your headphone instead of getting a complementary pair?

The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2011, 11:46
So why sell your headphone instead of getting a complementary pair?

£££ ;)

But yes, i take your point very well...
I am in fact discussing on another forum the merits of having multiple cameras for multiple jobs and differing circumstances

Any thoughts on a pair of headphones with possibly very slightly rolled off highs, warmish middles and a nice tight bass with a gatored caiman, with tirna mods and ad826 op amp running off a 16v psu... ?
on a budget? ;)

Ali Tait
04-11-2011, 11:53
That sounds like somthing I could do ...
I don't suppose you have a couple of appropriate caps I could p'chase p'chance :)
These things don't easily come to hand in my household :)

Here Hamish-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-X-Wima-2200pF-5-63V-PR2-R5-Capacitor-2-2nF-/280649054949?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&hash=item4157fcbae5#ht_500wt_1180

StanleyB
04-11-2011, 14:17
Any thoughts on a pair of headphones with possibly very slightly rolled off highs, warmish middles and a nice tight bass with a gatored caiman, with tirna mods and ad826 op amp running off a 16v psu... ?
on a budget? ;)
The Panasonic RP-HTF890. If you shop around you can get one for less than £60.

Mark Grant
04-11-2011, 21:35
The Bushmaster name is excellent, will do well with forum searches once google finds it.:)

Is this the DAC with the circuit board layout that could be described as 'minimalist' ?

The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2011, 22:05
Nice one Stan, I shall look into them! ... One more spec if poss ... Closed back?

synsei
04-11-2011, 23:01
You could try a pair of Superlux 668B's (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPERLUX-HD668B-SEMI-CLOSED-PROFESSIONAL-HEADPHONES-/180742074576?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item2a151130d0) Hamish, they should give you what you are looking for at nearly half the cost of the Panasonics. They really are excellent 'phones and are pretty close in performance to the Grado's without the analytical top end ;)

The Vinyl Adventure
04-11-2011, 23:27
Ah ... Now there is an idea!
I have the 681's but find hey are a bit leaky of sound for office use ... Not as much as the grados mind...
I wonder if the 669's would be much cop?

synsei
04-11-2011, 23:46
Ah ... Now there is an idea!
I have the 681's but find hey are a bit leaky of sound for office use ... Not as much as the grados mind...
I wonder if the 669's would be much cop?

I don't know as I've not heard a pair myself, I hear tell they are better than the 668's though ;)

StanleyB
05-11-2011, 06:25
Is this the DAC with the circuit board layout that could be described as 'minimalist' ?
That's the one. The same one you saw when you passed by not so long ago. The absence of the muting circuit a la TC-7510 and the use of a minimalist audio output circuit gained from experience with the TC-7520 passive mod has been very rewarding. It has saved on quite a lot of components, which in turn has reduced bill of material cost. Mind you, it will come as a shock to many that the Bushmaster has a larger surface area compared to the Caiman. The low noise PCB track layout demanded the spreading out of the individual circuit elements.

MartinT
05-11-2011, 09:44
Very interested in this, Stan. I have now taken the Caiman pretty much to its limit and it sounds bloody superb.

By the way, I'm thinking of taking my Caiman to Scalford next year, along with most of the rest of my system. Will you be there?

michaelhigh
06-11-2011, 14:47
I am being cautious for many reasons.
The Bushmaster is a minor statement DAC with some specs that knowledgeable DAC designers will want to have a peak at. But specs are one thing. Price has to be sensible and near impossible for anyone else to try to compete against.

This is what you referred to recently in an exchange with me...I'm looking forward to this as are many, I'm sure. Looking forward to future business.

laughingbuddha
07-11-2011, 20:35
Any one know the difference between a Wolfson WM8740 and a WM8716 ? Are the sampling rates the same ? Better in one rather than the other ?

Reid Malenfant
07-11-2011, 20:40
Hi laughingbuddha, could you please pop into the welcome area of the forum & introduce yourself properly :) While you are about it please add your real name, we like to keep things more personal on here than other forums. Thanks in advance ;)

Marco
07-11-2011, 20:40
Hi 'laughingbuddha',

Welcome to AoS :)

What's your real first name? Please add it to your profile.

Also, in your registration email, you were instructed to pop into the Welcome area and say hello, telling us what system you use and what music you like.

Please also attend to that on your next visit - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

StanleyB
18-11-2011, 19:23
Just a quick update to let you guys know that the final PCB has passed testing. So it's off to the test house soon to make sure it conforms to EU regulations.

Pics to come over the weekend once I can figure out where my camera is.

jostber
19-11-2011, 09:16
Looking forward to check out this! :thumbsup:

StanleyB
20-11-2011, 22:19
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/bm.jpg

A picture of me testing the Bushmaster against the Caiman. DAC audio technology and knowledge has definitely improved in the last couple of years.

Reid Malenfant
20-11-2011, 22:24
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/bm.jpg

A picture of me testing the Bushmaster against the Caiman. DAC audio technology and knowledge has definitely improved in the last couple of years.
No kidding, there looks to be bu**er all to the Bushmaster, that is unless there are surface mount components :eyebrows:

It does look a bit spartan in comparison to what I remember inside the Caiman :scratch:

MartinT
20-11-2011, 23:19
Looking good, Stan. What is the DAC chip used?

StanleyB
20-11-2011, 23:28
As mentioned in an earlier post, the Bushmster is based on all the good ideas and mods of the previous designs, plus some new ones:). There are no muting relays and their driver circuits. There is also no line output output stage. So no line output opamps and associated caps. It's a DC line output after all so no caps in the signal path to the output RCA sockets. There is also no variable output. The input selector circuit has also been simplified from a multi transistor, latching circuit, and selector diodes, to a microcontroller ;). And yes, I have used SMD where possible. They proved to be far less noisy in the TC-7510. The power supply is also far more compact due to the use of the latest generation LDO regulators. Those things are a mere fraction in size to the 78XX regulators that they replace.
The receiver and DAC chips are also far smaller in footprint. The board has also been laid out so that each section is as far away as possible from any other section. This helps to reduce the possibility of noise bleeding into adjacent circuitry.

StanleyB
20-11-2011, 23:33
Looking good, Stan. What is the DAC chip used?
I settled on the WM8524 after experimenting with a bunch of other ones. The manufacturer's specs looked less than spectacular, but the prototype DAC I built with it to try out the chip performed better than the Gatorized Caiman. And then I discovered that the SNR of the Rega DAC is the same as the Bushmaster :eyebrows:.

MartinT
20-11-2011, 23:34
So +ve and -ve rails for output capacitor-less operation? Nice.

StanleyB
20-11-2011, 23:44
So +ve and -ve rails for output capacitor-less operation? Nice.
Nope. As I mentioned in an early post, some of the techniques I used in the design of the Bushmaster are likely to be of great interest to other designers;).

MartinT
20-11-2011, 23:50
Intriguing!

jostber
21-11-2011, 13:01
That looks great. Do you have some specs for the headamp part of it too?

Gazjam
21-11-2011, 13:14
bit early...?
I'm sure Stan wont want to give away design info for a product not brought to market yet! ;)

Still, no harm asking!

Puffin
21-11-2011, 13:43
I see the "wire mod" is a keeper! :lol::lol:

StanleyB
21-11-2011, 13:54
That looks great. Do you have some specs for the headamp part of it too?
Maximum output swing is 8V peak to peak at the headphone socket. Output current is dependent on the opamp used, which also means that the bass level is dependent on the opamp used. I'll ship with the LM4562 in order to satisfy those who don't want too much bass. ( Yes there are loads of them...). But for proper bass drive, I use the THS4032 in my own setup with its 350mA capability. You should hear those K701 shift some air without any hint of distortion.
As for musicality: well if you liked the Caiman headamp section then you are going to be smitten by the Bushmaster. But don't just take my word for it. Feel free to drop by with your expensive dedicated headamp and compare it to the Bushmaster.

StanleyB
21-11-2011, 13:58
I see the "wire mod" is a keeper! :lol::lol:
I added some tweaking points for those who are not worried about their hearing, or want to bypass the Line out/headphone out switching point for a possible extra bit of detail. Of course, I do need to make sure that those mods would work ;).

jostber
21-11-2011, 19:44
Maximum output swing is 8V peak to peak at the headphone socket. Output current is dependent on the opamp used, which also means that the bass level is dependent on the opamp used. I'll ship with the LM4562 in order to satisfy those who don't want too much bass. ( Yes there are loads of them...). But for proper bass drive, I use the THS4032 in my own setup with its 350mA capability. You should hear those K701 shift some air without any hint of distortion.
As for musicality: well if you liked the Caiman headamp section then you are going to be smitten by the Bushmaster. But don't just take my word for it. Feel free to drop by with your expensive dedicated headamp and compare it to the Bushmaster.

Thanks for the info! This could end up at my order list. :thumbsup:

wee tee cee
25-11-2011, 17:39
Let me get this straight,
Its a dac that has an external psu but can run off a battery.(or is it powered by battery with external charger ie making it portable)
It has a headphone output (is this passive and requires an additional headphone amp or can I control the volume with my lap top)
No frills or extras...just a high quality dac not silly money..
Is that right.
Regards Tony.

StanleyB
26-11-2011, 15:22
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/bp.jpg
The Bushmaster running off a 12V rechargeable battery pack that I bought off eBay.

Reid Malenfant
26-11-2011, 17:15
Nice tidy design Stan :) Nice load of ground plane & neat track routing.

Why can't everyone do stuff like that? :rolleyes:

AndrewR
26-11-2011, 20:40
Looks superb! SMDs certainly have their advantages with regards to less in the way of stray reactances.

Intriguing, looks full of essential juiciness.

Andrew

chrism
28-11-2011, 14:32
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/aos/bp.jpg
The Bushmaster running off a 12V rechargeable battery pack that I bought off eBay.

Hi Stan,

Which battery pack is it? I would like to try one on a Lepai Lp-2020A+ tripath amp. It needs 12v and about 2A min.

Keeping an eye on the new DAC for a stereo setup on my TV. Your new DAC a chipamp and a small pair of speakers looks just the job.

Regards

Chris

StanleyB
28-11-2011, 15:00
It is THIS (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-DC-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Battery-CCTV-Cam-6800mAh-/120645075335?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item1c1701c187) one. Works very well with the TC-7520 and TC-7510 as well, but don't tell anyone ;). The main reason I don't recommend that as a power supply for those DACs is because they don't have a low power indicator facility built in.

Val33
29-11-2011, 15:18
Hi Stan

Will there be any opportunity to purchase the Bushmaster without a case or power supply? I am thinking that there must be others like me who would be quite happy to just have the board and incorporate it into our own case etc. and already have high quality power supplies.

thanks,

Val

seoirse2002
02-12-2011, 10:43
I would be happy to find a dac that has no headphone input as I never use them and I would rather have the money spent on it used else where,like maybe upgrading the components.

seoirse2002
04-12-2011, 13:24
Sorry,New here,so Im on a steep learning curve.Is it possible to have the bushmaster without a headphone input/board when its released?I would prefer maybe better other components instead.What do you think Stan?

StanleyB
05-12-2011, 05:22
Sure George. But a personalized DAC like that would cost you between £500 to £1000. We would design and build a different PCB and front panel for you and solder each individual component by hand. The bulk of the extra cost will be purely labour.
PM me a list of the components that you would like to be better and I'll PM you a more accurate cost. I'll need a non-refundable deposit as well :).

seoirse2002
06-12-2011, 12:30
Ouch.....my middle name is obviously naive...never thought of all that.
I think Ill just wait for the bushmaster..
thanks for the reply though.

chrism
06-12-2011, 14:25
Ouch.....my middle name is obviously naive...never thought of all that.
I think Ill just wait for the bushmaster..
thanks for the reply though.

Don't let it worry you George, you will soon get used to the "Customer" not always being right!

Regards

Chris

StanleyB
07-12-2011, 11:38
I have had a lot of email correspondence on this whole headphone output thing. Part of the problem is tied to a different thread where a couple of people imply that DACs with inbuilt headphone circuits are inferior in some ways. Some readers of AoS put two and two together and concluded that a DAC without a headphone output is superior. It just goes to show how personal opinions can be seen as established technical facts.
Another point raised on those emails to me is whether the Bushmaster will be sold without a headphone output. The answer to that is NO. I shall be designing a DAC without headphone output however, but it will cost more than the Bushmaster since many of the parts are high end and expensive.

Val33
07-12-2011, 12:22
I shall be designing a DAC without headphone output however, but it will cost more than the Bushmaster since many of the parts are high end and expensive.

This sounds very interesting, more information needed :stalks:

Val

MartinT
07-12-2011, 13:08
I shall be designing a DAC without headphone output however, but it will cost more than the Bushmaster since many of the parts are high end and expensive.

Now that is of interest, although my souped up Caiman sounds so good there is no hurry :)

Werner Berghofer
07-12-2011, 19:34
Stanley,


Part of the problem is tied to a different thread where a couple of people imply that DACs with inbuilt headphone circuits are inferior in some ways.

guess I’m part of the “couple of people” you mention, so I would like to put some facts straight here. I always wrote explicitly that I’m not a hardware engineer, and I never claimed to describe facts about the quality of components used in DACs and headphone amplifiers.

I expressed that according to my own personal listening experience the stand-alone DAC plus the stand-alone headphone amplifier I use now sound a lot better and pleasing than your DAC/headphone combinations known as (gatorized) Caiman and TC-7520. The headphones used for my A/B tests were the AKG K271, AKG K701, Beyerdynamic DT 990 and Beyerdynamic T1 (both models with an impedance of 600 Ω).

I encourage anyone who considers using high-end, high impedance headphones with any of your DAC/headphone combinations to compare its performance to the playback quality of an audio chain with a stand-alone, bare bones DAC and a stand-alone headphone amplifier and to develop an own opinion afterwards.

Nothing more I stated, but also nothing less.

Werner.

Reid Malenfant
07-12-2011, 19:45
Part of the problem is tied to a different thread where a couple of people imply that DACs with inbuilt headphone circuits are inferior in some ways. Some readers of AoS put two and two together and concluded that a DAC without a headphone output is superior.


Stanley,

guess I’m part of the “couple of people” you mention, so I would like to put some facts straight here. I always wrote explicitly that I’m not a hardware engineer, and I never claimed to describe facts about the quality of components used in DACs and headphone amplifiers.
Yes I think I might be a guilty party to ;)

If you read what I posted though you'll see that at no point did I say that a DAC will be inferior with a built in headphone amp, though obviously it could be, it depends on the quality of build & components etc.

What I did say is that the headphone amplifiers built into DACs are generally a compromise ;) A DIL IC is not going to be happy to drive low impedance headphones, where as it may drive higher impedances fairly easily. However if the voltage supply is low then it may well not even do that very well.

Hense unless some purpose built headphone amp that doesn't involve the use of a DIL IC (or maybe just as a driver) is built then the headphone output will be a compromise & an external headphone amp would be a wholly better proposition :)

If people can't read properly it is hardly my fault...

As a perfect example of a no-compromise headphone amp take a look at this PDF file (http://hansvt.home.xs4all.nl/pdf/brochures/ksa5.pdf) :) Low impedance, high impedance it just wouldn't matter... It'll sound the same & drive them all to full level ;)

Welder
07-12-2011, 19:52
Definitely guilty along with Mark and Werner :)
It’s not so much a question of the Dac being inferior because of it having a headphone output, it’s that its likely that the headphone output is likely to be inferior to a stand alone dedicated headphone amp.

Cant see why anyone should have a problem with this. :scratch:

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 07:10
What I did say is that the headphone amplifiers built into DACs are generally a compromise ;) A DIL IC is not going to be happy to drive low impedance headphones, where as it may drive higher impedances fairly easily. However if the voltage supply is low then it may well not even do that very well.

Hense unless some purpose built headphone amp that doesn't involve the use of a DIL IC (or maybe just as a driver) is built then the headphone output will be a compromise & an external headphone amp would be a wholly better proposition :)
You haven't been keeping up to date with headphone amp design technology ;). The TI TPA6120 IC has been used in headphone circuits for many years now by companies like Benchmark in their DAC, and by many others in stand alone headphone amps. Other ICs are also available that can be used for headphone output circuits.

As for your point on voltage output: can you expand on this for the benefit of all the readers of AoS? Maybe you can make a simple list of what current and voltage is required from a headmp in order to produce the maximum permitted power output to drive headphones at various impedances?

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 07:13
Definitely guilty along with Mark and Werner :)
It’s not so much a question of the Dac being inferior because of it having a headphone output, it’s that its likely that the headphone output is likely to be inferior to a stand alone dedicated headphone amp.
Can you expand a bit on that in technical terms? How does the separate case and power supply contribute towards making a stand alone headamp sound better compared to a headamp that shares its casing and power supply with a DAC circuit?

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 14:50
You haven't been keeping up to date with headphone amp design technology ;). The TI TPA6120 IC has been used in headphone circuits for many years now by companies like Benchmark in their DAC, and by many others in stand alone headphone amps. Other ICs are also available that can be used for headphone output circuits.

As for your point on voltage output: can you expand on this for the benefit of all the readers of AoS? Maybe you can make a simple list of what current and voltage is required from a headmp in order to produce the maximum permitted power output to drive headphones at various impedances?
I'm not really interested in ICs :eyebrows: A headphone amplifier is going to supply low enough power to make it worthwhile using a discrete circuit in Class A. I don't see many ICs in tube headphone amps so why incorporate one into a solid state version if you want the best quality? :scratch:

As for expanding on things, sure!

Beyer Dynamic manufacture a 600 ohm version of the DT990. This has a sensitivity of 96Db/mW & a power handling capacity of 100mW or 0.1W. This means it can reach peak levels of 116Db.

Now if you look as this little screen grab you'll notice the extraordinary sound levels possible with symphonic music...

5695

Taken from http://www.soundadvice.info/thewholestory/san12.htm

So lets assume you are sitting 12m away from the orchestra ;) The sound will be approximately 12Db down on those figures as it drops by 6Db when the distance is doubled. That still gives peaks of over 120Db.

Now we aren't going to ask the headphones to do what they can't do so we'll take the peak value of 116Db which they can do...

0.1W x 600 ohms = 60. square root of 60 = 7.7459V RMS neaded to produce this. Peak voltage = 7.7459 x 1.414 = 10.95V PK. So the supply will need to be approximately +/- 15V DC allowing for component losses.

Now type 4 ohm headphone into google, you'll find there are quite a few ;)

As I mentioned previously I'd like a no compromise headphone amp that could drive any headphone to full volume... So lets just assume that these hypothetical 4 ohm headphones have the same 96Db sensitivity & the same maximum power handling. Ok I know it's not likely to be exactly the same but there is no point in sucking eggs...

0.1W x 4 = 0.4. square root of 0.4 = 0.6324V RMS needed to produce peak output. Now comes the interesting bit as I want a class A amp :eyebrows:

0.6324V RMS x 1.414 = 0.8943V Pk. current needed in a push pull class A amp is 0.8943 divided by 4 ohms = 0.223A. Divided by two again as it's push pull = 0.1118A.

Now as we want to drive any headphone from 4 to 600 ohm to full volume we need that +/- 15V supply & the 0.1118A current which works out at 3.353W dissipation per channel or a total of just under 7W both channels.

I don't see any IC being happy with that kind of power dissipation myself :D


Hope that's good enough for you Stan ;)


Now I know you may well come back & say the the EU has restricted the maximum sound level that is allowed to be produced by a set of headphones & thus you have your hands tied, but I'm not interested in what the EU says in all honesty :ner:

chrism
08-12-2011, 15:45
Thanks Mark, very thorough and informative. Just need to remember to turn the vol down on one of yours before switch on!

Regards

Chris

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 15:47
:lolsign:

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 16:21
I'm not really interested in ICs :eyebrows: A headphone amplifier is going to supply low enough power to make it worthwhile using a discrete circuit in Class A. I don't see many ICs in tube headphone amps so why incorporate one into a solid state version if you want the best quality? :scratch:

So it is your prejudice against the use of an IC, rather than its current handling ability that you hold;). In a different topic you mentioned that the IC would run out of steam if asked to produce more than 40 or 50mA of current.
However, the 600 Ohms DT990 at 120dB only consumes about 18.5mA :scratch:.

I don't really care about using a 4 Ohms headphones on a headamp. That sort of low impedance is for speakers. It would also produce an SPL of 140dB from a 11Vpk line, which would of course wipe out one's eardrums in seconds.

If you take the far more popular and common 300 Ohms cans, then a 9Vpk signal will still be able to produce a 120dB SPL output, and a 32 Ohms can would be able to produce a 130dB SPL output. High enough to make you permanently deaf.
And at the end of the day the majority of headamps cater for the most common headphone impedances :),

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 17:01
So it is your prejudice against the use of an IC, rather than its current handling ability that you hold;).
If I want to live in a prefab then I'll use prefabricated parts yes.

While I'm sure that they measure very well due to having loads of feedback to lower distortion, I'd rather build a discrete circuit that only requires a small amount of feedback to control things.

A triple emitter follower circuit biased into class A on it's own is likely to have about 0.1% distortion (-60Db) driving it's respective load. That's with no front end or voltage amplifier.

In the case of a headphone amp & the worst case 4 ohm load only a two stage output would be needed. That would produce less distortion than a triple. A few transistors making a circuit that gives say 25Db gain open loop & 15db gain closed loop would reduce that output stage distortion to miniscule levels. Yes more than the IC would give, but then it would be a heck of a lot more musical :)


Now while I can fully understand why people use ICs for DACs is pretty obvious & I'd do the same thing, but for something as simple as an amplifier I think there are better ways of going about things.

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 17:14
Sorry, I had to attend to the postman for a minute and today's dispatches.

Coming back to your point about the 120dB dynamic range of the orchestra: where are you going to get that extra 24dB out of the CD format :scratch:?

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 17:25
There are res formats Stan as I'm sure you are aware.

I don't think any orchestral music has that kind of dynamic range anyway, not whilst playing, so I fail to see what dynamic range has to do with anything?

If you'd have said peak to average ratio of volume of sound I think it would have made more sense. If you look back at that screen shot it shows about 25db peaks (not being silly & giving the 137Db peak figure) over the average content.

Werner Berghofer
08-12-2011, 17:26
Stanley,


a 9Vpk signal will still be able to produce a 120dB SPL output, and a 32 Ohms can would be able to produce a 130dB SPL output.

I don’t think that SPL (= sound pressure level, so that other non-techies may be able to fully understand what you’re talking about) is the most important criteria to evaluate the playback quality of a headphone amplifier. While of course a bicycle with an auxiliary engine may reach similar speeds (when driving downhill), there is no doubt that riding a fully equipped motorbike with enough horsepower reserve is much more fun – and more safe, in case the extra power needs to be available unexpectedly and immediately.

When talking about low impedance headphones like the AKG K701 (62 Ω) or the AKG K271 (55 Ω) both you and I know that I’m not the only one who considers their sound rather thin, anemic and weak when they are used on the headphone socket of your Caiman or TC-7520. The moment these headphones are connected to a real headphone amplifier, they really start to shine and bloom, even if one of your DACs is used to feed the head amp.

Werner.

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 17:32
Stanley,
I don’t think that SPL (= sound pressure level, so that other readers may be able to fully understand what you’re talking about) is the most important criteria to evaluate the playback quality of a headphone amplifier. While of course a bicycle with an auxiliary engine may reach similar speeds (when driving downhill), there is no doubt that riding a fully equipped motorbike with enough horsepower reserve is much more fun.
You should have addressed that to Mark. I didn't want to pull him up on the use of SPL as a measurement of a headamp, but replied nonetheless to his calculations.

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 17:39
You should have addressed that to Mark. I didn't want to pull him up on the use of SPL as a measurement of a headamp, but replied nonetheless to his calculations.
Where did I do this? I simply said about driving the headphones to realistic levels on peaks when listening to symphonic music at a fairly realistic level most of the time.

I can't see at any point I mentioned that a headphone amp has to produce X amount of SPL, that's down to the headphones & nothing to do with headphone amp other than being able to cleanly supply enough voltage & current to achieve it :)

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 17:49
So what were all those calculations of the headamp calculations all about? Was that not to drive the headphone to a certain sound pressure level in order to cover the dynamic range of an orchestra at 12m?

Werner Berghofer
08-12-2011, 17:54
Stanley,


You should have addressed that to Mark.

sorry for this, I stand corrected, but I see that Mark already has replied. However, I still miss an explanation from you why even headphones with far more popular and common impedances of 300 Ω or less sound better when driven by a stand-alone headphone amplifier.

Now, I fully understand that your DACs are budget products which are targeted for different buyers, and I’m pretty aware of marketing speech, but I wouldn’t dare to claim:

“The new generations of high-end headphones have up to now only been able to operate properly on expensive stand-alone headphone amplifiers. The Caiman inbuilt headphone amplifier is designed to drive even the latest range of high-end headphones and reproduce musical detail that these new headphones are capable of.” (quoted from your website)

You see, last year I really tried hard to believe this was true. Then I found out that at least for me and my demands your statement is slightly exaggerated.

Werner.

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 17:58
If you go back & take a look you'll notice it was to supply the headphones with there full power capabilty. IE 600 ohms at 100mW in the case of the Beyer Dynamic DT990 (600 ohm version).

The calculations were about the voltage needed to fulfil that & the current needed to run a full class A push pull output stage into lower impedance headphones (in this case 4 ohms).

In other words a headphone amplifier that will drive any standard moving coil headphones without compromise in either current or voltage.


I'm surprised you'd need me to explain this to you Stan? I thought it was plainly obvious to an electronics engineer :confused:

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 18:07
However, I still miss an explanation from you why even headphones with far more popular and common impedances of 300 Ω or less sound better when driven by a stand-alone headphone amplifier.

Now, I fully understand that your DACs are budget products which are targeted for different buyers, and I’m pretty aware of marketing speech, but I wouldn’t dare to claim:

The above two paragraphs are an example of what I was originally referring to when mentioning the fact that customers were asking for the removal of the headphone section on the Bushmaster. You are mixing a discussion about headphone circuit design and my DACs. This is what is giving many readers the impression that the headphone amp section on my DACs must be crap.
However, quite a few people have tried the headphone output of my DACs against stand alone headamps and were pleasantly surprised how good they were on most circumstances when stacked against the standalone headamps. Of course, using the K701 as a yard stick of performance is in itself questionable. The K701 is notoriously poor in its ability to reproduce bass properly. The cone tends to exhibit sound break up quite easily when driven with bass heavy audio. That observation has been made many times over by numerous K701 owners using a variety of DACs and headamps.

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 18:09
In other words a headphone amplifier that will drive any standard moving coil headphones without compromise in either current or voltage.

You consider 4 and 600 Ohms headphones standard?

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 18:16
You consider 4 and 600 Ohms headphones standard?
I don't think you are quite getting my point Stan. I mentioned that If I built a headphone amplifier I'd design it to drive just about anything.

I find it a bit silly to make something that will only work on more generally available stuff & then find you can't drive something properly just because it's non standard ;)

I'm talking about myself, what anyone else does is entirely up to themselves.

StanleyB
08-12-2011, 18:38
I don't think you are quite getting my point Stan. I mentioned that If I built a headphone amplifier I'd design it to drive just about anything.
Nobody is condemning you for designing a headphone amp that can drive just about anything. But for the general commercial market it is not a practical option. Like everything else, products are designed for a particular level of use and options, not an all encompassing one. To wish otherwise only goes to show your total lack of knowledge on a commercial scale. The more options a product offer, the more expensive it is, and the more customers look for a product that does cover their needs without crippling them financially.

Reid Malenfant
08-12-2011, 18:46
Thank you :) I also agree with your last sentence, though it does depend on what market you are aiming for of course. As I pointed out with the KSA5 though, some manufacturers do go the whole hog (though that thing is simply OTT).

Peter Galbavy
08-12-2011, 20:48
Stan,

Please continue to design, build and sell products for normal people and as previously please do not take too much notice of those who seem to appear to just trying to make it harder to get *products* to market by constantly asking for an extra wibble or wobble widget.

Peter

seoirse2002
08-12-2011, 21:15
And all I was asking was if it was possible to have the bushmaster without a headphone board,as,
A: I never,ever,use headphones and
B: Having limited funds I thought it would be cheaper,without the board and extra work involved,and if not cheaper,maybe using better other components instead. Sorry for my ignorance,but if Im buying my first DAC,and never use headphones,I see it as a waste of money to have a headphone board and would rather see the money spent elsewhere,where I would benefit from it.
All the facts and figures and graphs and tests etc. are all meaningless to me.
Ive been constantly told that a dac will make a great difference to what I like to do....listen to music...and having spent over 30years wearing headphones(I was a radio presenter) The last thing I want to do is wear them at home as well....so Im truly sorry Stan for opening this can of worms,but you see I didnt read any posts about headphone amps or the like as I couldent care less about them....
Based on what I can afford now to put my toe in the water with the DAC(S)
Stans DAC seems to be what I need and after a certain age there are frequencies that the human ear can no longer hear,so Im hoping the dac will make my music sound better.
Im not too much into wearing the emperors new clothes,but if it makes the improvement that everyones talking about Ill be very happy.Im already enjoying my music as I write this,so STAN,please hurry with the Bushmaster.
I cant wait to try it.

Werner Berghofer
08-12-2011, 21:20
George,


Im hoping the dac will make my music sound better

be assured: it will make your music sound better, even much better. Be prepared to discover fine details, layers and textures of sound you might have never heard before.

Kind regards,

Werner.

chrism
09-12-2011, 11:44
So can I have a Bushie without a headphone but with a preamp bit?

:stalks: = :steam: = :lolsign:

Only joking Stan as it is Christmas.

Regards

Chris

wee tee cee
09-12-2011, 14:00
From what I can gather the Bushmaster will suit me very well.
A head phone output that exceeds the ability of the caiman.....
A straight forward co-ax/optical input dac with no filters/displays/pre-amp.
Priced very reasonably.
I have on order a FIIO E10 that can be utilised as a spdif convertor, I dare say when the bushmaster becomes available I will treat myself to one.
It strikes me that Stan is very generous with help and information to the less technically minded like myself.
I look forward to trying one in my set up and posting my findings.
Tony.

Labarum
12-12-2011, 22:00
I have not been paying attention recently, and have just tried to catch up.

Fascinating but for me disappointing. The lack of a variable output is for me a deal-breaker. I have no pre-amp I use my Caiman as a Dac-Pre, and it drives my Quad power amp very well.

I will continue to watch.

AndrewR
13-12-2011, 18:42
Where's my USB!

;)

Andrew

Labarum
13-12-2011, 18:48
Where's my USB!

No USB either?

Mind you, what will the price be?

Mark Grant
13-12-2011, 18:59
Price is not yet certain until I have an actual idea of the cost of production. But £125 excluding VAT and shipping is the aiming point.


looks a good price :)

Val33
13-12-2011, 19:17
I have not been paying attention recently, and have just tried to catch up.

Fascinating but for me disappointing. The lack of a variable output is for me a deal-breaker. I have no pre-amp I use my Caiman as a Dac-Pre, and it drives my Quad power amp very well.

I will continue to watch.

You can build a passive pre using an Alps Blue and top quality resistors, in a nice box, for £20-£40 depending on choice of parts. If the Bushmaster is that good, the lack of a variable output isn't really a problem.

I too use a Caiman as a pre for my Leaks.

Val

Labarum
13-12-2011, 19:33
You can build a passive pre

The DAC has no buffering, if the "Pre amp" has no buffering it might sound great, and it might not.

I think I might be waiting for a Bushmaster+

But in fairness to Stan, I guess most of his customers will be using integrated amps.

bostod
13-01-2012, 18:42
Any updates on the Bushmaster. How near is it to being ready for sale?

Bonky
13-01-2012, 18:50
Any updates on the Bushmaster. How near is it to being ready for sale?

Stan quoted me March.

BW

Bonky

Mr.Ian
16-01-2012, 17:20
I I shall be designing a DAC without headphone output however, but it will cost more than the Bushmaster since many of the parts are high end and expensive.

Hi Stan

how do you expect the Bushmaster to stack up against the Silmic Gator on line out? and secondly how far behind time wise and in front sound wise are you targeting the non named, higher spec product mentioned above.

As you know I sold my Audiolab Mdac to buy another Caiman so if these move performance up a level without sacrificing the musicality of the SEG I just need to know where to go next, hell maybe I should just buy both and decide from there

StanleyB
16-01-2012, 17:40
Time is one thing that I haven't managed to keep under control. But I want to have things wrapped up on the next DAC after the Bushmaster by October.

Mr.Ian
16-01-2012, 17:48
put me down for a Bushmaster then and I'll run it in parallel with the SEG and take it from there.

StanleyB
16-01-2012, 17:52
put me down for a Bushmaster then. A very wise choice. Everyone who has heard the pre-production board has left my place with a grin from one side of their ear to the other;).

bobbasrah
17-01-2012, 07:23
...a grin from one side of their ear to the other;).

:scratch:

StanleyB
17-01-2012, 08:07
:scratch: :eyebrows:

Labarum
17-01-2012, 08:10
A binaural grin?

I look forward to your new product, Stan.

bobbasrah
17-01-2012, 08:17
A binaural grin?

from one side of the ear to the other would be the other side of the ear therefor a monaural grin....;)
What I believe in old navy parlance was a mixed semaphore...:lol:

DSJR
17-01-2012, 08:49
A binaural grin?

I look forward to your new product, Stan.

+1 :)

StanleyB
17-01-2012, 09:33
Thanks guys :). Sorry about the lack of 'purchase decision making' information. I am putting the finishing touches to a hot item that could set a new benchmark in terms of what customers would expect from the performance of a DAC even when playing (properly ripped) mp3 files. My skin is hurting from all that pinching of myself that I have been doing.

DaveK
17-01-2012, 11:10
Thanks guys :). Sorry about the lack of 'purchase decision making' information. I am putting the finishing touches to a hot item that could set a new benchmark in terms of what customers would expect from the performance of a DAC even when playing (properly ripped) mp3 files. My skin is hurting from all that pinching of myself that I have been doing.

Stan, you are a bugger (in the nicest possible way ;) ) at whetting the appetite and leaving us with all sorts of questions hanging in the air. Please don't keep us in suspenders for too long :) .
Dave.

selfaddict
17-01-2012, 17:11
I look forward to your new product, Stan.

+1 :cool:

jonnyd
22-01-2012, 09:05
Hi stan and all,

Really looking forward to this. I've been waiting to upgrade my system for a while, and think that getting the Bushmaster may be the most cost effective upgrade, as really I'm quite happy with it overall.
What differences do you think I'll hear coming from the 7510 given that most of my listening is done from Spotify premium? It's the standard 6/4 as I'm not a tweaker like many here seem to be! I was/still am happy with it as is, so left it like that.

Can't wait for more news,

Cheers

Jon

StanleyB
22-01-2012, 12:00
What differences do you think I'll hear coming from the 7510 given that most of my listening is done from Spotify premium?
Sorry to be a bit vague about the audio performance of the Bushmaster, but rest assured that I have spent an awful long time on making sure that it will be another value for money purchase. Having had a chance to try it out against some of the heavy hitters below £1000, you can rest assured that people will soon be telling me that I am selling it far too cheap. If the Caiman was about detail, then the Bushmaster is about added definition. There is so much more venom in the way the Bushmaster takes care of each digital bit. I almost felt sorry for some of the speakers that I tested it on.

jonnyd
22-01-2012, 13:03
Thanks for the message Stanley, looking forward to hearing about availability. I'll be keeping an eye on here as ever.

Cheers,

Colin151
23-01-2012, 00:29
Just dropping in here (I registered on this forum a few years ago but never got around to posting more than one message!).

I bought a used Caiman DAC (with Gator and Caiman boards) earlier in the year. I was always blown away with the sound from the moment I heard it, - from both the headphone out and the line out into my Hifi system.
Stan kindly helped supply me with some opamps over the past few months (when I inserted a few the wrong way!) and we kept in touch. On Saturday he kindly dropped by place and brought his latest DAC invention (the Bushmaster) along with him so we could try it in my Hifi system. This was his uncased pre production version of the Bushmaster (that is exactly the same technical spec as the one coming out). We played it through my rather transparent Magnepan 3.3R planar speakers and compared it to my Caiman.

I was blown away, - seriously, - I've never heard a sound so detailed and transparent. The Bushmaster is just amazing. I thought the Caiman with Gator was good but this is something else, - the jump in performance in terms of the clarity and transparency is not small. After Stan left I felt my system sounded totally inadequate without the Bushmaster in place. I 'll be buying one as soon as it comes out!

Stan tells me the sound improvement is down to the simplicity of the design, - there is so much less is in the output stage than the Caiman, - no relays, no coupling caps etc.

I modified my Gator board a while back with all film and foil coupling caps, but it still does not come anywhere near to the performance of the Bushmaster. One of the albums we put on was the 1980s original Tracey Chapman album. It was amazing, - I could hear instruments and other details in the background that I had never ever heard before and just simply never knew were there.

The bass is more punchy and solid than even the Caiman, the treble more extended, and there is loads of pace and rhythm. Somehow Stan has managed to achieve all this without the sound being cold and unmusical. There is also no hint of digital hardness/harshness whatsoever (which is very important to me).
The biggest thing that got me though (and which was obvious from the very first second of listening) was the incredible transparency and sheer resolving power of this device. It is simply jaw dropping. The release date will not come soon enough for me. It's incredible to think this DAC will be priced lower than the Caiman was! Just wait till you hear this one guys and you will see what I mean!

I can tend to be critical of hifi components, but I have to say that I simply can't pick any holes in Stan's products!

aBe
23-01-2012, 02:11
Isn't it too early for Christmas and Boxing Day this time of the year?
Put me in the Q too please :D

MartinT
23-01-2012, 07:23
Stan - you can put me down for one as soon as you're ready!

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 07:58
Consider it done :).

Sorry about the delay with the launch. We are having to make some adjustments to the case. The weight of the DAC plus packaging exceeded the 2Kg Royal Mail SD and ISF weight limit. So the case is being put on a diet to reduce the weight, and then it's off to the test house for CE etc. approval.

RoboCopper
23-01-2012, 08:15
Stan,

I will probably take not only one, but two. One for me, and another for my m8 Zvonimir in Donji Miholjac, Croatia who thinks that Musical Fidelity M1 is very good.
Anyone compared M1 to Bushmaster?

Thanks

jandl100
23-01-2012, 09:08
Hmm ... sounds like Our Stan has done it again!

Put me down for one as well, please, Stan. :)

Canetoad
23-01-2012, 09:13
+1 :eyebrows:

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 09:15
Put me down for one as well, please, Stan. :)
I have already put you at the top of the list ;).

seoirse2002
23-01-2012, 10:35
Just what Ive been waiting for!...Yes Please!

Gazjam
23-01-2012, 11:48
Any idea of the cost yet Stan?
(understand if its too early to say...)

DaveK
23-01-2012, 12:16
Any idea of the cost yet Stan?

Less than the Caiman, if I recall an eaarlier post correctly.

Colin151
23-01-2012, 13:49
If i remember right its around £40 or so cheaper than the Caiman. Stan might be able to confirm.

I have to say that in some ways I wish Stan had not dropped by with the Bushmaster, - simply because I will have to wait until April!. Now I've been spoilt, my system sounds completely inadequate to me. I've never heard anything quite like it before if I'm being honest. The transparency and definition (in particular) really were something else. I didn't think that type of sound was possible from digital sources that still sound musical. Now I've heard it once, nothing else will do..... I honestly have no idea how he's done it for the price.


Less than the Caiman, if I recall an eaarlier post correctly.

Mr.Ian
23-01-2012, 14:00
selling direct with no distributors or retailers in the chain must help a lot. I can well imagine each looking for a margin of 40-50% which could quadruple the price to the end user.

Looks to me as if the money is going into sound quality rather than displays etc so I imagine it being rather good - which is what I am keen to buy one asap.

Labarum
23-01-2012, 15:00
Basic specs are:
Two TOSLINK inputs
Two Coax inputs
One fixed Line output
One headphone output
Audio frequency range 0Hz to 20KHz.
Sampling freq. up to 192Khz

Other technical details:
No audio caps in the signal path between DAC chip and RCA/phono sockets.
No opamp output stage.
i.e. it is a fully passive output DAC.



My Caiman-Gator drives my Quad 520f Power Amp direct, straight into the sensitivity pots at the input. How will the Bushman cope with that, Stan? The input pots are 100k.

If it will I can replace the two single channel pots wit a ganged stereo pot and just carry on. Is the lack of a buffer amp likely to be an issue?

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 17:54
My Caiman-Gator drives my Quad 520f Power Amp direct, straight into the sensitivity pots at the input. How will the Bushman cope with that, Stan? The input pots are 100k.

If it will I can replace the two single channel pots wit a ganged stereo pot and just carry on. Is the lack of a buffer amp likely to be an issue?
The Bushmaster goes down to DC, which means that there could be a DC component in the audio signal path. It's not more thyan 1mV, but pots and volume controls can produce a scratching kind of noise when they have a DC voltage going through them. So you would have to put a capacitor in series with the signal in order to block the DC component.

Alternatively, you'll have to sit it out till I have completed the variable volume version of the DAC. No release date yet penned in for that one though.

Labarum
23-01-2012, 17:56
Alternatively, you'll have to sit it out till I have completed the variable volume version of the DAC. No release date yet penned in for that one though.

I can be patient.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2012, 18:48
So what's the price?
Sorry of we have been over this ...
I don't even need another dac, in fact my caiman has gone into the work hifi today ...
Funny actually both my colleagues laughed saying they probably would be able to hear a difference compared to the old Cambridge audio dac ... Until I plugged it in ... Both of them looked a bit wide eyed and took back the preconceptions!
Anyway... I'm wittering ...
Is there a price yet?

Mr.Ian
23-01-2012, 19:36
Funny actually both my colleagues laughed saying they probably would be able to hear a difference compared to the old Cambridge audio dac ... Until I plugged it in ... Both of them looked a bit wide eyed and took back the preconceptions!.
Is there a price yet?

you mean they couldn't and they were surprised at how little things have moved on since 1989

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 19:48
As things stand, best estimate is less than £170 delivered to the UK, or £175 to anywhere else. I know that's beer money for some people, so you'll have to make a decision whether it's the beer or a Bushmaster :lol:.

Gazjam
23-01-2012, 20:05
a lot of us Caiman owners Stan (Im sure) are looking at the best of the current £500/£600 dacs and thinking "upgrade path"?

the Caiman sound great, if the new one is better I guess the likes of the Rega and Audiolab Dac is what you'll be up against.

90% of what a £600 Dac can do would get my £170
(not beer money to me so better be good!)

Labarum
23-01-2012, 20:08
a lot of us Caiman owners Stan (Im sure) are looking at the best of the current £500/£600 dacs and thinking "upgrade path"?


http://emotiva.com/xda1.shtm

Gazjam
23-01-2012, 20:12
...and that :)

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 20:24
90% of what a £600 Dac can do would get my £170
(not beer money to me so better be good!)
That's part of the idea. Not everyone can afford to squander £170, let alone £600. But as you know, each of my DACS were regarded as "a lot of bangs for your bucks" on their launch. But 90% might be far too conservative. Be prepared to go higher ;).

pumpkineater23
23-01-2012, 20:43
How would the the new one compare with the 7520? Is it much better?

Gazjam
23-01-2012, 20:44
your reputation proceeds you Stan...
lot to live up to!

(no pressure) :)

jonnyd
23-01-2012, 20:48
How would the the new one compare with the 7520? Is it much better?

That was my question as well but compared to the 7510 6/4. The answer was all about definition, but as not many people have heard the bushmaster, there's not much to go on. Definitely high hopes, if it's going for around £170 you can put me down on the waiting list please!

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 21:06
your reputation proceeds you Stan...
lot to live up to!

(no pressure) :)
Remember when I first mentioned the performance gains of the Gator and how much it was going to cost? Lot's of raised eyebrows then as to what such a cheap upgrade could realistically accomplish.

As for comparison with the TC-7510/TC-7520: I prefer to leave those answers to someone impartial :). Colin has however done a small write up on his findings when he compared his Caiman and Gatorized Caiman against the Bushmaster. It's in this thread a page or two prior to this page.

Mark Grant
23-01-2012, 21:28
Can you add me to the list please Stanley :)

magiccarpetride
23-01-2012, 21:39
Remember when I first mentioned the performance gains of the Gator and how much it was going to cost? Lot's of raised eyebrows then as to what such a cheap upgrade could realistically accomplish.

As for comparison with the TC-7510/TC-7520: I prefer to leave those answers to someone impartial :). Colin has however done a small write up on his findings when he compared his Caiman and Gatorized Caiman against the Bushmaster. It's in this thread a page or two prior to this page.

Add me at the very top of the list for the Bushmaster, Stan. The reason I'm being this uncivilized is that I live on the other side of the planet, so I would need a fair head start if I am to be among the first to fully review it.

Is it the 'first come, first served' list, or the 'first served, first come'?

A hypothetically controversial question: will Bushmaster require as long a burn in time as Caiman did? I remember it took ages for me before Caiman reached the point of showing all its formidable strengths. I would assume, by looking at a streamlined and quite spartan design of the new Master, that it shouldn't require that much burn in, because of the fewer pathways of execution yadda, yadda, yadda. But then again, what do I know?

If it takes ample time for it to burn in, I'll make arrangements to leave it on in the office for a constant weekend burn in before deflowering it at home:)

To be honestly perfect, I've been itching to see if there is a reasonable upgrade path from Caiman, and so far have been only a bit impressed by the Naim's DAC; however, at $4,000.00 a piece, and sounding only marginally 'wetter' than Gatorized Caiman, I didn't feel it was worth the trouble (even if it was four times cheaper).

Here is hoping that Bushmaster will bring me that coveted 'wetness' in sound that I've been only hearing on some of the insanely expensive systems.

Colin151
23-01-2012, 21:41
How would the the new one compare with the 7520? Is it much better?

I've not actually heard the 7520 or 7510. I went straight to the Caiman as I wanted the best in this price range.

All I can say about the Bushmaster is that it actually completely blows the Caiman away. The difference is not at all subtle in my opinion. There is more than just a few layers of much hash removed from the sound, - its like having an open window to the performance that I've not heard before in my system. Like I mentioned earlier today, I kind of wish Stan had not brought the Bushmaster by for a listen as I now have a three month wait knowing what is going to be possible for £170.


Lord know how much I'd have to spend on a DAC to get anything that sounded close in the meantime.:scratch:

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 21:52
Here is hoping that Bushmaster will bring me that coveted 'wetness' in sound that I've been only hearing on some of the insanely expensive systems.
I'll leave you to explain in due course what you mean :).

Colin151
23-01-2012, 22:03
Here is hoping that Bushmaster will bring me that coveted 'wetness' in sound that I've been only hearing on some of the insanely expensive systems.

I'll leave you to explain in due course what you mean :).

I might be wrong, but I think he means the realism/that elusive open window to the performance that's like actually being there with the musicians live in front of you. That's what the Bushmaster does best above anything else in my opinion.

StanleyB
23-01-2012, 22:12
I was most impressed how the Bushmaster turned the fused together bass tones on that Tracey Chapman album into individual bass notes. What's the title on that CD by the way?

Alex_UK
23-01-2012, 22:33
Add me at the very top of the list for the Bushmaster, Stan.

Crikey, Alex - you're still with us. :) 5 months since we've heard from you, but then I guess the announcement of Stan's new product is fairly momentous. Hope you are well. :)

magiccarpetride
23-01-2012, 22:52
Crikey, Alex - you're still with us. :) 5 months since we've heard from you, but then I guess the announcement of Stan's new product is fairly momentous. Hope you are well. :)

Yes, and I hope you're well too. Man, I can't wait to get my dirty, slimy, greedy hands on the Bushmaster. I hope I won't get bushwacked:eyebrows:

And then, to top it all off, is it true what they say that an even better DAC is in the pipe from Stan, the one scheduled for this fall? The one without headphones out? That would be a dream come true!

Colin151
23-01-2012, 23:14
I was most impressed how the Bushmaster turned the fused together bass tones on that Tracey Chapman album into individual bass notes. What's the title on that CD by the way?

The Album title is "Tracey Chapman", - self titled debut album (and still her best one to date). The first song ("Talkin' 'bout a revolution") blew me away through the Bushmaster. There were so many noises I've never heard before and with this DAC you could actually hear what instruments they were. Such great definition. I totally agree with you on the Bass notes too, - not the usual mush in the bass I've always heard before with this CD.

I wish there had been time to go through most of my collection with this DAC!

The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2012, 23:37
I might be wrong, but I think he means the realism/that elusive open window to the performance that's like actually being there with the musicians live in front of you. That's what the Bushmaster does best above anything else in my opinion.

Now I like to think that I like music as much as any man, and I've seen a fair few musicians live in front of me, but I haven't yet experienced any sensation of 'wetness' from such an experience.
Either I'm doing something very, very wrong, or you guys have been smokin' them funny pills again.



Hi Alex - nice to see you back here again. Are your laurels away being dry cleaned & pressed?

magiccarpetride
23-01-2012, 23:47
Now I like to think that I like music as much as any man, and I've seen a fair few musicians live in front of me, but I haven't yet experienced any sensation of 'wetness' from such an experience.
Either I'm doing something very, very wrong, or you guys have been smokin' them funny pills again.

Have you listened to the Naim DAC? One thing that hits you on the first listen is how the sound feels as if it's been washed down with a hose. Sort of like a gorgeous car that's finally been washed, and is now sitting in the driveway, all wet and sparkling. It's not that you see more details on the car, it's just that the familiar details and shapes now appear more gorgeous, more brilliant, now that all the dust and dirt has been removed.


Hi Alex - nice to see you back here again. Are your laurels away being dry cleaned & pressed?

Good to find myself back in your fine and esteemed company, Grazoo. My laurels are all wrinkled now, so my semi-retirement is not as comfy as it used to be...

The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2012, 23:53
It's not that you see more details on the car, it's just that the familiar details and shapes now appear more gorgeous, more brilliant, now that all the dust and dirt has been removed.


Ahhhhh, I get it now! ....................so you don't have to change your panties then?

Colin151
23-01-2012, 23:54
Have you listened to the Naim DAC? One thing that hits you on the first listen is how the sound feels as if it's been washed down with a hose. Sort of like a gorgeous car that's finally been washed, and is now sitting in the driveway, all wet and sparkling. It's not that you see more details on the car, it's just that the familiar details and shapes now appear more gorgeous, more brilliant, now that all the dust and dirt has been removed.


OK I got the "wetness" thing wrong then!:scratch:

Sounds like the Naim DAC makes things clearer, more defined. The Bushmaster does that too but goes further, - really revealing stuff you simply never knew was there. I've not heard a component before that does this is such an outstanding way without sounding clinical.

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 00:22
OK I got the "wetness" thing wrong then!:scratch:

Sounds like the Naim DAC makes things clearer, more defined. The Bushmaster does that too but goes further, - really revealing stuff you simply never knew was there. I've not heard a component before that does this is such an outstanding way without sounding clinical.

I have a slight suspicion that Naim DAC is doing a bit of editorializing, interjecting some coloration that may not necessarily exist in the recording. While playing, that DAC may sacrifice some of the reckless precision you're talking about in order to favour a more sugar coated presentation. Not my cup of tea, I prefer what Caiman is doing to the signal, it's only that I got smitten by that 'freshly washed and waxed car' imagery. I'd love to have it on my system, and who knows, maybe Bushmaster will fit the bill?

I've also noticed some other ultra high end systems offering that 'wet' sound...

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 00:23
Ahhhhh, I get it now! ....................so you don't have to change your panties then?

It would depend on how much of a car aficionado you are...

Colin151
24-01-2012, 12:48
I have a slight suspicion that Naim DAC is doing a bit of editorializing, interjecting some coloration that may not necessarily exist in the recording. While playing, that DAC may sacrifice some of the reckless precision you're talking about in order to favour a more sugar coated presentation. Not my cup of tea, I prefer what Caiman is doing to the signal, it's only that I got smitten by that 'freshly washed and waxed car' imagery. I'd love to have it on my system, and who knows, maybe Bushmaster will fit the bill?

I've also noticed some other ultra high end systems offering that 'wet' sound...

Seem like I misunderstood your meaning of a "wet" sound twice!, just as Wazoo did once.:eyebrows:

Hmmmm from what you are saying it sounds like the Naim injects some colouration into the sound. That's what a lot of Naim products do, - the amps do that too (paritucalrlly the older olive/chrome bumper ones), - they use EQ and bandwidth limitation to overemphaise dynamics, increase PRAT and overemphasise the excitement level. It can sound very exciting and addictive to listen to, but after a long period you can tend to realise that proper music does not really sound like that. Perhpas some of your newly washed car feeling is some of the Naim colouration (which you tend to suggest it could be)

Its certainly possible some of this is going on with the Naim DAC. Many years ago I had a Naim CDI CD player and a similar thing went on there as was the case as with the amps. I have to say, I'm not up to date with the latest Naim gear though, its too pricey for me and whilst initially exciting, the colorations/sound quirks of the Naim sound tend to annoy annoysme in the longer term so I shelved their products a long time ago. From what I've have read though, the latest stuff (whilst still having the Naim signature sound) is less extreme sounding than the older gear.

The Bushmaster is not short of excitement and the pace etc is actually much improved from the Caiman in my opinion, - that's quite obvious from first listen. But there is no coloration of the details already there in terms of making it sound artificially exciting, - on the contrary, - its so transparent it just like an open window. Like I say, the added bonus is you also hear so many more details that you ever heard before (this is in comparison with the CAIMAN (which is no slouch already)). It must be the simplicity of Stan's design and the way he has somehow managed to make this new DAC still sound musical at same time. Less is most certainly more in this case.

northwest
24-01-2012, 12:53
I have had a bit of back and forth with Stan over the Bushmaster v Caiman scenario and my conclusion is that the Caiman better suits what i need. I have no DAC at all right now and whatever I buy it will be my first so I have no reference.
I just need the versatility of the Caiman - I will be able to use it as a passive amplifier and this is a big plus for me.
I will be very interested to see what else Stan is working on.

Labarum
24-01-2012, 12:58
Much as all this chatter about the merits of various DACs interests me, I can't help thinking that much bigger differences would be noticed by changing the loudspeakers.

What loudspeakers have you used in the design process, Stan, and where do your personal preferences lie?

Colin151
24-01-2012, 14:03
I guess Stan omitted the variable out on the Bushmaster in order to cut down the costs. I suppose its a reasonable area to cut as not that many people use the variable out, - usually only the fixed RCA outputs (into a preamp or integrated amp), or use the device as an all in one Class A headphone amp. Though I think he is planning an add on for the variable out with remote volume for the Bushmaster.

I am not sure the Caiman variable outs should be considered the same as using a passive preamp, - I think there is some useful gain from the variable outs as the output level is 2V so its more like an active preamp. Though I think someone mentioned before there is no buffering from the Caiman variable outs (active preamps usually use buffering), - I'm not sure exactly on that one.

Using the fixed output of the Caiman into an actual passive preamp (or simple attenuator) gives more transparency than the variable output, but at the cost of dynamics. I have compared the Caiman variable output to the Caiman fixed out into either of my two passive preamps and this is indeed the case. I have been pretty much given up on Passive preamps for this very reason though - the lack of dynamics really gets to me despite the transparency gains. Its OK with some simple material but too bothersome with most other material, - the sound is just too weak and it does not sound like real music. I currently use a valve preamp with loads of voltage gain and love the dynamics.

The lack of variable out on the Bushmaster is obviously not big issue for me as I use a separate active preamp (and I also use the DAC as a headphone amp), but I'll still be interested in buying the add on variable output and remote volume option in the future as I like having extra options to try (and like changes in my preamp scenario from time to time). If the Bushmaster variable output is similar to the Caiman variable out (which sounds very good) I'd be very happy.



I have had a bit of back and forth with Stan over the Bushmaster v Caiman scenario and my conclusion is that the Caiman better suits what i need. I have no DAC at all right now and whatever I buy it will be my first so I have no reference.
I just need the versatility of the Caiman - I will be able to use it as a passive amplifier and this is a big plus for me.
I will be very interested to see what else Stan is working on.

jonnyd
24-01-2012, 17:47
Much as all this chatter about the merits of various DACs interests me, I can't help thinking that much bigger differences would be noticed by changing the loudspeakers.


I have been thinking about this as well, but came to the conclusion that it's about bang for your buck. As my system stands at the moment, I think I'd have to spend in the region of £6-800 to upgrade my amp or speakers to have a noticeable change. I can't justify that at the moment. An upgrade of around £170 is much more palatable, and given what Colin has said, it's quite likely to make a difference. I've read on here the Stan's very good about returns if your not satisfied though, as I suppose not everyone might see the changes as improvements, personal taste and all that. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what a DAC upgrade can do.




What loudspeakers have you used in the design process, Stan, and where do your personal preferences lie?


Yeah it would be interesting to know what equipment you test with Stan. Sorry if this has been mentioned before, i couldn't spot any info on your profile.

realysm42
24-01-2012, 18:12
I'm going to have to ignore this product completely as I've had an M-dac on order since December.

Has anyone got any comparisons of the two?

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 18:13
Much as all this chatter about the merits of various DACs interests me, I can't help thinking that much bigger differences would be noticed by changing the loudspeakers.

What loudspeakers have you used in the design process, Stan, and where do your personal preferences lie?

Even more importantly, what room have you used in the design process, Stan?

pumpkineater23
24-01-2012, 18:24
I'm surprised that not many people use the variable outs, I would have thought, that for most people, hiding away the large clunky stuff (amps p.amps etc) and the DAC doubling up as a preamp would be half the point. I wonder what percentage of people like the bits on display, especially when it comes to computer based audio?

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 18:37
I'm surprised that not many people use the variable outs, I would have thought, that for most people, hiding away the large clunky stuff (amps p.amps etc) and the DAC doubling up as a preamp would be half the point. I wonder what percentage of people like the bits on display, especially when it comes to computer based audio?

I've tried the variable outs on Caiman, but was not happy with the output volume it was giving me. Basically, I would have to crank the volume control on the Caiman all the way up to get the same loudness I get from my pre-amp at around 10:00 (which is some 20 - 30% of the max volume possible). That just doesn't cut the mustard for me, as I often enjoy my music very loud!

So I'm perfectly happy to learn that Bushmaster had cut the charade and is going fixed only -- less stuff to worry about inside the DAC, way to go!

StanleyB
24-01-2012, 18:42
I don't use speaker makes or models, or room sizes as a measurement guide in my DAC designs. My view is that a DAC should sound excellent at all times, no matter which speakers you own or room size you use it in.

Labarum
24-01-2012, 18:52
I'm surprised that not many people use the variable outs, I would have thought, that for most people, hiding away the large clunky stuff (amps p.amps etc) and the DAC doubling up as a preamp would be half the point. I wonder what percentage of people like the bits on display, especially when it comes to computer based audio?

My solution

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aBO6gvuzPXg/TsTLmhQUhwI/AAAAAAAABs4/M0ioWcLllP8/s512/IMG_1561.JPG


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mvA52IYKlt4/TrlPEAETWaI/AAAAAAAABiQ/Ef_Ta-4JEhs/s640/IMG_1534.JPG

Simples!

The Vinyl Adventure
24-01-2012, 19:21
Even more importantly, what room have you used in the design process, Stan?

Blimey ... What a bloody question
Any idea of the room that naim use for testing?

The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2012, 19:28
My solution

Simples!

Very neat Brian. Just out of interest, do you use the pot on the DAC or the ones on the Quad to control the volume, & have you compared the two for sound quality?

Labarum
24-01-2012, 19:40
do you use the pot on the DAC or the ones on the Quad to control the volume, & have you compared the two for sound quality?

I use the Caiman's volume control - it's a ganged stereo pot. The sensitivity pots on the power amp are single channel. I have not tried the Caiman fixed out into the power amp.

pumpkineater23
24-01-2012, 20:31
I use the Caiman's volume control - it's a ganged stereo pot. The sensitivity pots on the power amp are single channel. I have not tried the Caiman fixed out into the power amp.

I also have a Quad power amp and have not tried it with the Beresford fixed outs. I worry that without any preamp the volume would be at the highest at default and I might damage my speakers. (I use J.River/PC remote to adjust volume).

Hey that's a nice tidy setup you have there.

pumpkineater23
24-01-2012, 20:45
I've tried the variable outs on Caiman, but was not happy with the output volume it was giving me. Basically, I would have to crank the volume control on the Caiman all the way up to get the same loudness I get from my pre-amp at around 10:00 (which is some 20 - 30% of the max volume possible). That just doesn't cut the mustard for me, as I often enjoy my music very loud!

So I'm perfectly happy to learn that Bushmaster had cut the charade and is going fixed only -- less stuff to worry about inside the DAC, way to go!

Strange, I find the opposite. My Beresford volume control is very sensitive with variable outs and Quad power amp - I never go past half way even at my most drunkest. It's usually set at about a quarter past and I adjust with J.River/PC remote and seem to have plenty of volume.

The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2012, 20:56
I had great fun for a short period playing my Accuphase CD player directly into a Quad 520. I was sorry to see it go - a very capable amp.

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 21:20
Strange, I find the opposite. My Beresford volume control is very sensitive with variable outs and Quad power amp - I never go past half way even at my most drunkest. It's usually set at about a quarter past and I adjust with J.River/PC remote and seem to have plenty of volume.

How many watts into 8 ohm are we talking?

magiccarpetride
24-01-2012, 21:22
I don't use speaker makes or models, or room sizes as a measurement guide in my DAC designs. My view is that a DAC should sound excellent at all times, no matter which speakers you own or room size you use it in.

This is the so-called 'Beatles syndrome' in hi fi. Basically, it don't matter if you're listening to a Beatles song on a shitty Japanese transistor from the early '60s or on an amazing ultra high-end hi fi system, the song always sounds amazing!

DSJR
24-01-2012, 21:41
I had great fun for a short period playing my Accuphase CD player directly into a Quad ***. I was sorry to see it go - a very capable amp.

SSSHHHHH! Don't wake them up ;)

pumpkineater23
24-01-2012, 22:27
How many watts into 8 ohm are we talking?

140 watts I believe. It's a Quad 606.

northwest
24-01-2012, 22:46
The lack of variable out on the Bushmaster is obviously not big issue for me as I use a separate active preamp (and I also use the DAC as a headphone amp), but I'll still be interested in buying the add on variable output and remote volume option in the future as I like having extra options to try (and like changes in my preamp scenario from time to time). If the Bushmaster variable output is similar to the Caiman variable out (which sounds very good) I'd be very happy.

Why did you do this to me? <sigh> Do we have a date for the emergence of the Bushmaster? (apologies in advance if this has been answered already).

Marco
24-01-2012, 23:22
Hi Graham,

Just a quickie... Did you go and get the P2 from Convoy Records? :)

Marco.

Colin151
24-01-2012, 23:22
140 watts I believe. It's a Quad 606.

Part of the mystery here is that the Quad 606 has a very high input sensitivity compared to other power amps around. It's nothing whatsoever to do with power output levels. Even a 3 watt per channel 2A3 valve amp can have very high input sensitivity. The Quad 606 input sensitivity is a very high 0.5V for full output rather than the usual 1.6V or so. Its due the the current dumping circuit and its also a deliberate part of the design. Quad preamps such as the 66 or 99 etc have very little gain, because they lack gain stages that can potentially degrade the sound.

I actually sold my 606 because a mate of mine in the USA told me that configuring the output transistors for such high output puts them past their linear point and the sound suffers to some extent. After carefully comparing to some other power amps of normal input sensitivity I did indeed find this was the case with the 606 (I did find the sound was a little crude and rough in comparison). The Quad pre/power amp philosophy seems to be that the preamp is low gain but high quality in terms of SQ and the power amp is high gain but less good sound quality, - the two kind of balance each other out. I used my Quad 606 with a 99 preamp for a while and the sound was very good. I did still run out of volume level though which is why I sold both. The 99 preamp has insanely low max output levels, - you even get far less max output than the unity gain available from a passive preamp (for example). If I had not run out of volume level, I would have likely kept the Quad 99/606 combo. My insensitive Magnepan speakers were part of the issue (the Quad 606 drives them great from a "drive" point of view as it can whack 240 watts into 4 ohms), - its just a shame I ran out of volume (which was 100% due to the 99 preamp). The sound of the 606 with preamps with more gain is not as good as it is with the lower gain Quad preamps.

Anyway (sorry to ramble on a diversion) the reason your Caiman volume control is not used very high up with the Quad 606 is because of the latters high input sensitivity. Even a passive preamp can be used with a Quad 606 and you can get deafening levels. With the Caiman variable out you potentially have even more max volume than with a passive.

I use my Caiman sometimes with its variable out into my NAD and Aragon power amps and it works well. I have to put the pot level pretty high, - around 12 to 3 o clock depending on the material, but the max volume level on the pot is quite a lot more on mine, - around 5 o' clock. Its not an issue in my opinion as I've never run out of volume.

The Caiman variable output has loads more output level than the Quad 99 preamp. The 99 outputs only 0.775 mv. The Caiman does 2V.

Colin151
24-01-2012, 23:27
Whether the Caiman variable output has enough vol level would depend on the size of your room, input sensitivity of your power amp, the sensitivity of your speakers, and how loud you listen.......

I have average input sensitivity power amps, insensitive Magnepan speakers, medium sized room, and listen at medium to high levels. I find the Caiman variable output has plenty of output level for me, - I've never needed to turn it up full.



I've tried the variable outs on Caiman, but was not happy with the output volume it was giving me. Basically, I would have to crank the volume control on the Caiman all the way up to get the same loudness I get from my pre-amp at around 10:00 (which is some 20 - 30% of the max volume possible). That just doesn't cut the mustard for me, as I often enjoy my music very loud!

So I'm perfectly happy to learn that Bushmaster had cut the charade and is going fixed only -- less stuff to worry about inside the DAC, way to go!

Colin151
24-01-2012, 23:33
As your Quad 520F power amp has pots on it you could try the Caiman fixed output into it and potentially get better sound (as you are omitting the attenuation circuit on the Caiman so getting a purer signal path). Make sure the pots are at minimum on the amp though before doing so. For everyone else with a power amp without pots (which is usually the case), never use the Caiman fixed output into the power amp unattenuated unless you want a nice shock and potentially damage your speakers. :eyebrows: The Quad 520F is unusual on a forum like this as its a pro amp that has pots. Most hifi power amps have no pots on them.



I use the Caiman's volume control - it's a ganged stereo pot. The sensitivity pots on the power amp are single channel. I have not tried the Caiman fixed out into the power amp.

Colin151
24-01-2012, 23:34
I also have a Quad power amp and have not tried it with the Beresford fixed outs. I worry that without any preamp the volume would be at the highest at default and I might damage my speakers. (I use J.River/PC remote to adjust volume).

Hey that's a nice tidy setup you have there.

NEVER try the Caiman fixed outs into your Quad 606 power amp with any attenuator or preamp in between. There is no way to attenuate the signal and as the 606s has such high input sensitivity damage would v likely to be done to your ears and speakers!. :D

Colin151
24-01-2012, 23:45
I asked Stan about people using the variable outs and he reckons it's the least used part of the DAC. I think a lot of people buy these DACs to use them as an all on one, good quality class A headphone amp. I had a Graham Slee Solo on loan for a friend a while back and did not like the sound at all, - it was far too clinical and a bit lean. I far prefer the Gatorised Caiman which sounds so much more natural and musical, and its so much cheaper.....

I did not have time to listen to the Bushmaster headphone out when Stan stepped by at the weekend (We only used my main system with the Magnepan speakers). I would have loved to try it with my Sennhesiver HD250II and Yamaha YH100 orthdynamic headphones, but perhpas it would not have been a good idea as I would likely now be even more unsatisfied with my Caiman (which still sound great, but in comparison to the Bushmaster......:doh: roll on April!)


I'm surprised that not many people use the variable outs, I would have thought, that for most people, hiding away the large clunky stuff (amps p.amps etc) and the DAC doubling up as a preamp would be half the point. I wonder what percentage of people like the bits on display, especially when it comes to computer based audio?

northwest
24-01-2012, 23:56
Hi Graham,

Just a quickie... Did you go and get the P2 from Convoy Records? :)

Marco.

No, I was snowed in in New York so I have to hang about here for a few days browsing the record stores:-(
Emailed Rupert and I am picking it up Friday:cool:

Marco
25-01-2012, 00:06
Nice one, dude. Hope you enjoy it :)

Marco.

pumpkineater23
25-01-2012, 00:07
Part of the mystery here is that the Quad 606 has a very high input sensitivity compared to other power amps around. It's nothing whatsoever to do with power output levels. Even a 3 watt per channel 2A3 valve amp can have very high input sensitivity. The Quad 606 input sensitivity is a very high 0.5V for full output rather than the usual 1.6V or so. Its due the the current dumping circuit and its also a deliberate part of the design. Quad preamps such as the 66 or 99 etc have very little gain, because they lack gain stages that can potentially degrade the sound.

I actually sold my 606 because a mate of mine in the USA told me that configuring the output transistors for such high output puts them past their linear point and the sound suffers to some extent. After carefully comparing to some other power amps of normal input sensitivity I did indeed find this was the case with the 606 (I did find the sound was a little crude and rough in comparison). The Quad pre/power amp philosophy seems to be that the preamp is low gain but high quality in terms of SQ and the power amp is high gain but less good sound quality, - the two kind of balance each other out. I used my Quad 606 with a 99 preamp for a while and the sound was very good. I did still run out of volume level though which is why I sold both. The 99 preamp has insanely low max output levels, - you even get far less max output than the unity gain available from a passive preamp (for example)

Anyway (sorry to ramble on a diversion) the reason your Caiman volume control is not used very high up with the Quad 606 is because of its high input sensitivity. Even a passive preamp can be used with a Quad 606 (despite the low input impedance of the 606).

I use my Caiman sometimes with its variable out into my NAD and Aragon power amps and it works well. I have to put the pot level pretty high, - around 12 to 3 o clock depending on the material, but the max volume level on the pot is Quite a lot more on mine, - around 5 o' clock. Its not an issue in my opinion as I've never run out of volume.

I had a Quad 99 preamp for a while. The Caiman variable output has loads more output level than that. The 99 outputs only 0.75 mv. The Caiman does 2V.


Thanks for answering that one, I was wondering if it was power related or something else. Bearing in mind what you have said I don't suppose you could recommend a DAC to be used as a preamp with my Quad 606? I will be seeking an upgrade this summer.

slate
25-01-2012, 00:14
Just want to add that I use the variable output in my main setup... as seen in my signature

Colin151
25-01-2012, 00:32
Thanks for answering that one, I was wondering if it was power related or something else. Bearing in mind what you have said I don't suppose you could recommend a DAC to be used as a preamp with my Quad 606? I will be seeking an upgrade this summer.

Well, as we know, there is nothing that's very cheap on the DAC front that has a variable output,- apart from the Caiman (and the Bushmaster when the variable option on that comes out). So you could potentially sell your 7520 and get a used Caiman for example. I have not compared the two but I hear the Caiman is quite a lot better than the 7520. When I get the Bushmaster you are welcome to borrow my Caiman to hear how much difference there is.

You have other options too. The Quad 606 power amp does work quite well with a passive preamp. You would get a more transparent sound in some regards if you tried that. The dynamics with that combo would still not bad as the 606 has so much gain. The Quad 606 does have a low input impedance though so there might be some roll off in the bass and treble. A passive preamp and buffer is an even better option (you don't get the roll off), - something like a DIY Pass B1 clone buffer or the DCB1. When used with the 7520 fixed outputs either of these options (passive pre, or passive pre with buffer) will definitely give you a more transparent sound than using the 7520 variable outputs, as would using a low gain Quad active preamp. I've had both the 66 and 99 preamps before and both sound great with the 606, - particularly the 99. A Quad pre/power setup would likely again outperform the 7520 variable out but it all depends on your budget (a Quad preamp would not be too cheap, - around £250-350) and you would have to take into account the limited max volume level. What speakers do you use? Their sensitivity is v important with regards to this as the Quad preamps have so little gain. This is the reason the Quad preamps sound better than the Caiman/7520 variable output ( I compared at length when I had the 99 preamp), - it would be near to be impossible for the Caiman/7520 varable output to sound better as it has so much higher output.

For me (with the Quad pre/power combo), it was just a dealbreaker on the max vol issue when used with my insensitive speakers.

The Quad preamp option is pretty expensive though it could be worth trying is you have the funds, - you could always sell the preamp on if you did not think the change was worth the expense. For a v cheap change to try out, I would say to use the 7520 fixed output with a passive preamp into your Quad 606 and see how you like the sound. You could even build a passive pre for a tenner or so. It will certainly be more transparent that using the variable output of the 7520. The dynamics with a passive pre were the dealbreaker for me, but some people don't find it so much of a problem, and (like I say) it is likely to be less of a problem with the Quad 606. I also have a passive pre you could borrow if you are interested in trying it out.

Another option could be to get a cheap valve preamp (and again use the 7520 fixed output), though that's more likely to be a sideways step (in general) compared to the variable output and a subjective one, - some people like what valves add to the sound. If you wanted to try that I would suggest getting a valve preamp with an cathode follower, - such as a Yaqin MS12B (this is the one I use, - it's pretty cheap at around £200.) The Cathode follower is really needed with solid state amps such as the Quad 606 (due to their low input impedance.)

If you want a more certain improvement to some areas of the sound (such as pureness and transparency) I would look at a passive preamp, or Quad preamp. With the passive pre dynamics and roll off at the frequency extremes could be an issue. Those are not issues with a Quad preamp, - the problem with the latter is really just the cost of the preamp. Or (like I mentioned at the start), upgrading from the 7520 to the Caiman (and also using its variable outs) is a likely good option and not too pricey at all once you've resold the 7520.

So three immediate options I can see for you. Waiting for the Bushmaster variable out option is another of course.... I am betting that will sound even much better than the Caiman variable out.

Colin151
25-01-2012, 00:47
Just want to add that I use the variable output in my main setup... as seen in my signature
hmmm.......:scratch:

So it seems some people do rely on the variable output. I guess it's more likely people that use the variable out on this forum than in general though. I am guessing the the majority of people buy Stan's DACs for the good quality headphone amp built in and cheap all in one solution for headphones. The headphone ability was the main reason I bought my Caiman in the first place (to mainly use it with a PC), - then I tried the Caiman on my Cd player/Hifi with speakers.... and didn't look back. So it doubles up for me, it's such a flexible little device.

It is a bit of a shame the Bushmaster does not have variable output right off the bat but I know Stan wanted to price the Bushmaster lower than the Caiman, and something had to give to achieve this. I am glad he choose the variable out rather than the headphone amp ability (for example), and at least there is going to be the add on variable output to come in the future.

Those who rely on the variable output might be a bit stuck on the upgrade path for a while until the add on comes out. I would have suggested a passive preamp or simple attenuator in between DAC and power amp as a potential way around this, but Stan said yesterday that's a no no due to the Bushmasters DC output, - apparently a scratchy sound will result. I am intrigued with his mention of using caps though to sort this out. Where would you put the caps Stan? In between Bushmaster and attenuator?, or in between attenuator and power amp?:scratch: (I am not that technical!)

The Grand Wazoo
25-01-2012, 01:08
Quite a few folks here on AoS do that Colin - it was quite a revelation to some.

Colin151
25-01-2012, 01:14
Quite a few folks here on AoS do that Colin - it was quite a revelation to some.

You mean using the fixed output of the DAC and a passive preamp?

I really like the transparency of that option. I have one of those LDR passive preamps and its really transparent (far more so even than a passive pre with a normal contact pot).
With a passive preamp the lack of dynamics just bothered me after a while. It's much less of an issue with some material than others of course, and a somewhat subjective thing. I know many people swear by passive preamps. A passive pre and a buffer is a pretty good compromise IMO (I have a clone Pass B1 I use sometime with my LDR preamp). That's like a half way house (half way between a totally passive preamp and an active preamp), - you get some dynamics back and you get greater extension at frequency extremes (especially when running into a solid state power amp) whilst still getting the passive type transparency.

The Grand Wazoo
25-01-2012, 01:24
No, I was affirming what you had surmised when you said this:


hmmm.......

So it seems some people do rely on the variable output. I guess it's more likely people that use the variable out on this forum than in general though.

Colin151
25-01-2012, 02:16
No, I was affirming what you had surmised when you said this:

Ahh I see. Yeah, The variable output is a v useful option for some people (with the Caiman etc) and it does sound very good. The other preamps I use are not better sounding, just different. Variable output is a money saver for sure.

I suppose something had to give for Stan to price the Bushmaster so competitive. Like I just mentioned, I am guessing the headphone amp section of this DAC is what more people use in general and would consider to be more important than variable out.

Perhaps the attenuator/cap option when using the fixed output could be a way around this for some potential Bushmaster buyers, until the variable output option comes out....

jandl100
25-01-2012, 07:47
Hmm ... sounds like Our Stan has done it again!

Put me down for one as well, please, Stan. :)


I have already put you at the top of the list ;).

Hey, Stan. You're the Man! :cool:

I fondly recall - many years ago! - when I did an ebay impulse buy on the old mk2 Beresford 7510 DAC. Intended as a bit of a laugh to use with my minidisc player (tbh, at it's £100 price point I was expecting it to sound shite and return it for a refund!) I tried it on my main rig ... and the dang thing blew me away. :doh:

I think that the Beresford DAC was the very first of my now infamous "Jerry Hype Forum Fad" threads to appear on the Wigwam. Boy, did that cause a stir! :lol:

jandl100
25-01-2012, 07:50
... I've also just invested in the Tracy (no 'e') Chapman CD that folks have been on about - £1.69 delivered from good ol' Amazon Market Place. :)

StanleyB
25-01-2012, 08:20
I think that the Beresford DAC was the very first of my now infamous "Jerry Hype Forum Fad" threads to appear on the Wigwam. Boy, did that cause a stir! :lol:
Those were the days. I remember them well :).

I intended to put a simple variable volume control on the Bushmaster, but I soon realized that a simple volume control circuit was out of the question. So that is still under development. Even fitting a volume control to the headphone circuit was not an easy job. The main reason is the DC offset of 1mV. Variable resistors don't like DC. So I am having to use a volume control method that reduces the volume towards infinity, instead of shorting out the signal towards ground. Part of the reason that I use such an arrangement as well is that the headphone output dynamic range is not affected by low volume control settings. This is not always the case with most headphone designs, which then makes the sound so lifeless on lower volume settings in many headamps. I would of course like to use the same principle on the variable output.

Colin151
25-01-2012, 14:10
Those were the days. I remember them well :).

I intended to put a simple variable volume control on the Bushmaster, but I soon realized that a simple volume control circuit was out of the question. So that is still under development. Even fitting a volume control to the headphone circuit was not an easy job. The main reason is the DC offset of 1mV. Variable resistors don't like DC. So I am having to use a volume control method that reduces the volume towards infinity, instead of shorting out the signal towards ground. Part of the reason that I use such an arrangement as well is that the headphone output dynamic range is not affected by low volume control settings. This is not always the case with most headphone designs, which then makes the sound so lifeless on lower volume settings in many headamps. I would of course like to use the same principle on the variable output.


Cheers for the exaplanation Stan. :scratch: I kind of understand a little but not fully! My electronics knowledge is not that good! My speciality is to just isten and play with different kit (and do the odd bit of modding if I know pretty much exactly what to do!)

Sounds like you worked very hard to get the headphone section of the Bushmaster with variable volume to work well. I am sure you'll be able to do it with the variable out too. I (for one) would buy that add on as soon as it came as, as I'm sure would many others would on this forum and elsewhere. Remote control with the volume add on would be icing on the cake and also very welcome. :D

Ali Tait
25-01-2012, 18:15
hmmm.......:scratch:

So it seems some people do rely on the variable output. I guess it's more likely people that use the variable out on this forum than in general though. I am guessing the the majority of people buy Stan's DACs for the good quality headphone amp built in and cheap all in one solution for headphones. The headphone ability was the main reason I bought my Caiman in the first place (to mainly use it with a PC), - then I tried the Caiman on my Cd player/Hifi with speakers.... and didn't look back. So it doubles up for me, it's such a flexible little device.

It is a bit of a shame the Bushmaster does not have variable output right off the bat but I know Stan wanted to price the Bushmaster lower than the Caiman, and something had to give to achieve this. I am glad he choose the variable out rather than the headphone amp ability (for example), and at least there is going to be the add on variable output to come in the future.

Those who rely on the variable output might be a bit stuck on the upgrade path for a while until the add on comes out. I would have suggested a passive preamp or simple attenuator in between DAC and power amp as a potential way around this, but Stan said yesterday that's a no no due to the Bushmasters DC output, - apparently a scratchy sound will result. I am intrigued with his mention of using caps though to sort this out. Where would you put the caps Stan? In between Bushmaster and attenuator?, or in between attenuator and power amp?:scratch: (I am not that technical!)

A lot of amps/ pres (most?) have caps on their inputs for this very reason.

Colin151
25-01-2012, 19:32
A lot of amps/ pres (most?) have caps on their inputs for this very reason.

Yes of course, which is why its therefore a problem with a passive preamp/simple attenuator as there are no caps present. Was just wondering what sort of value cap you would put in series with the DAC and the attenuator in a passive preamp type setup. I would assume the cap value should ideally be quite high, to avoid roll off in the bass.

Mr.Ian
25-01-2012, 21:51
Just looked at the circuit diagram of my tube pre and the input goes through a selector switch to a stepped attenuator and then on to an "isolation" transformer (Jensen). Not sure if this will give problems or not but .........

it got me thinking -

would an in line transformer between Bushmaster and pre block the DC and provide a solution ??

Colin151
26-01-2012, 16:41
would an in line transformer between Bushmaster and pre block the DC and provide a solution ??

:scratch:!!

I'm not technical enough to answer for sure, but I know transformers can isolate well so it might be just fine..

Labarum
26-01-2012, 16:44
I am having to use a volume control method that reduces the volume towards infinity, instead of shorting out the signal towards ground. Part of the reason that I use such an arrangement as well is that the headphone output dynamic range is not affected by low volume control settings. This is not always the case with most headphone designs, which then makes the sound so lifeless on lower volume settings in many headamps. I would of course like to use the same principle on the variable output.

Confused I am, Stan.

If you have a suitable volume control in the box to control the output for the headphones, can't a variable line out be taken off after that volume control, even if there are some losses? The customer then has more options.

StanleyB
26-01-2012, 18:21
Confused I am, Stan.

If you have a suitable volume control in the box to control the output for the headphones, can't a variable line out be taken off after that volume control, even if there are some losses? The customer then has more options.
That would most likely have been the eventual solution that many would have adopted. But the Bushmaster is not a conventional design. You are going to have to trust me on that.

jandl100
27-01-2012, 07:12
Stan, you are a tease! :lol:

.... I can hardly wait for the Bushmaster to arrive :drool: - that's in April, is it?

MartinT
27-01-2012, 07:19
Indeed, I think I will then put my Caiman on PC duty, feeding the Mini-T amp.

Colin151
27-01-2012, 11:48
... I've also just invested in the Tracy (no 'e') Chapman CD that folks have been on about - £1.69 delivered from good ol' Amazon Market Place. :)

Great Album. Still sounds as good to me now as when I first heard it in 1988. It's one of those simple but unusually effective albums that you don't get tired of listening to and always come back to. The first 5 songs and the last song are all classics in my opinion.

The LP sounds really good too if you can source one. I would recommend doing that do, as I know you love your vinyl. I have several copies on LP myself.

Colin151
27-01-2012, 11:53
Stan, you are a tease! :lol:

.... I can hardly wait for the Bushmaster to arrive :drool: - that's in April, is it?

Believe me, having heard the Bushmaster, I can safety say its a very special DAC, - particularly for the low money.

I still kind of wish I had not heard it as my Caiman (very good though it is) currently sounds inadequate to me now I know what's actually possible from a DAC. It's just that the wait till April is going to kill me! :doh:

I'm glad Stan is looking into doing the variable output in the best way possible. Though I don't necessarily need it myself (as I have 4 active preamps) I will be so intrigued I'll likely have to buy it when the add on is released.

Mr.Ian
27-01-2012, 12:19
April !! :steam:

magiccarpetride
27-01-2012, 17:39
April !! :steam:

Oh no, April 1st? Stan is indeed a giant tease!

magiccarpetride
27-01-2012, 17:40
Believe me, having heard the Bushmaster, I can safety say its a very special DAC, - particularly for the low money.

I still kind of wish I had not heard it as my Caiman (very good though it is) currently sounds inadequate to me now I know what's actually possible from a DAC. It's just that the wait till April is going to kill me! :doh:

I'm glad Stan is looking into doing the variable output in the best way possible. Though I don't necessarily need it myself (as I have 4 active preamps) I will be so intrigued I'll likely have to buy it when the add on is released.

But don't you kind of wish you haven't heard the Bushmaster prototype?

Mr.Ian
27-01-2012, 18:59
it would be great if some were available before Scalford, it would make a great launch platform

Colin151
27-01-2012, 20:21
But don't you kind of wish you haven't heard the Bushmaster prototype?

Yes in some ways I wish I hadn't! :doh:

At least I know its B...... good though!. Just got to wait.

jandl100
27-01-2012, 22:30
it would be great if some were available before Scalford, it would make a great launch platform

Good thought!

... I'd be happy to take one round to different rooms .... "have a try of this in your system, then!" :) I bet Stan would get enough orders to take him thru to the end of the year! :eyebrows:

Mr.Ian
27-01-2012, 23:20
just what I had in mind......... great minds.......

cycler2
29-01-2012, 00:35
Stan,
Will the Bushmaster be available in the USA? I am one of those folks who use a variable output to drive an amp and my speakers (bypassing my preamp). I gather that the variable output will be useful for that purpose. Will that option be available in the US when the Bushmaster is released?

Best of luck with your new product.

Rich

John
29-01-2012, 08:04
Hi Rich
Can you please introduce yourself in the welcome section
Many thanks

Krisbee
29-01-2012, 16:07
I use my 7250 variable out straight to my Quad 306. As an electronics numpty, does Stan's comment about the DC fixed out of his new Bushmaster DAC being a no no with passive preamps inlcude LDR designs?

I guess it probably does, so it looks like I'll still be waiting for the next best Beresford DAC.

StanleyB
29-01-2012, 16:29
I use my 7250 variable out straight to my Quad 306. As an electronics numpty, does Stan's comment about the DC fixed out of his new Bushmaster DAC being a no no with passive preamps inlcude LDR designs?
The DC offset component is only 1mV. But carbon tracks on a variable resistor will sound crackly/noisy when a DC level is adjusted with the pot.
LDR etc would be OK, or a cap in the signal path before a variable volume control. I am working on an optical encoder type of volume control circuit in order to add a variable output.

Krisbee
29-01-2012, 20:02
Thanks for the clarification Stan. At least a LDR is cheaper than a s/hand Quad 34, which you'd be lucky to get for £200. But I'd rather have your Bushmaster plus.

Let's hope it's not too many months away.

jonnyd
29-01-2012, 20:55
I just wish the first Bushmaster wasn't months away! April (if thats when it's due to be released) seems like years at the moment, sorry if that's being impatient, but I'm excited!

cycler2
29-01-2012, 21:22
Hi Rich
Can you please introduce yourself in the welcome section
Many thanks

Thanks for the reminder. I've posted in the welcome section.
Rich

Audioflair
31-01-2012, 18:34
I have just auditioned the Bushmaster Dac and am really impressed by it`s transparency and focus. The top to bottom coherence is of the highest order. The battery PSU gives a silent backdrop from which the music flows with naturalness and clarity. Some products strip the meat off the bone to give an impression of etched detail. The Bushmaster avoids this because it is emotionally convincing. I just love deceptively simple designs that deliver the goods like this Dac does.

cycler2
31-01-2012, 22:15
I have just auditioned the Bushmaster Dac and am really impressed by it`s transparency and focus. The top to bottom coherence is of the highest order. The battery PSU gives a silent backdrop from which the music flows with naturalness and clarity. Some products strip the meat off the bone to give an impression of etched detail. The Bushmaster avoids this because it is emotionally convincing. I just love deceptively simple designs that deliver the goods like this Dac does.

Thanks for your report. Are you in a position to compare what you heard to other, specific DACs at the realistic end of the price spectrum...or some at higher prices?

Rich

Audioflair
01-02-2012, 09:25
Please bear in mind that this reply is an opinion based on my sonic tastes, so here goes. It clearly outperforms Arcam rDac, Dacmagic and Rega Saturn and Rega Dac. At the higher end, its timing is spot on, so better-timing than two Accuphase models I have heard (now obsolete), more natural than the earliest Audio Synthesis Dac and P.S. Audio Ultralink both of which achieved detail by what I call negative colouration i.e. too etched.

Gazjam
01-02-2012, 10:08
Some esteemed company there...
Better than the Saturn...that got my attention :)

Can see the Caiman going in the bedroom soon....

Alex_UK
01-02-2012, 11:38
Wow - could be a true giant killer, then! I was thinking my Caiman could be used as a standalone headphone amp/USB DAC for when I'm working in the dining room... :)

StanleyB
01-02-2012, 12:06
I was thinking my Caiman could be used as a standalone headphone amp/USB DAC for when I'm working in the dining room... :)
Wait till you hear the Bushmaster headphone output and you'll soon change your mind;).

The Vinyl Adventure
01-02-2012, 14:01
gonna be a few caimans on ebay then ...

StanleyB
01-02-2012, 14:17
Like the TC-7510 and TC-7520 before the Caiman, I intend to continue working on mods so that even the older DACs can benefit from improvements. Even at this moment in time I am playing with the TC-7520SEG Silmic mod. A few people have had that mod done to their TC-7520SEG, and they are very pleased.
So no need to panic and think that the older DACs will be left behind unwanted and unloved. Far from it.

cycler2
01-02-2012, 16:33
Please bear in mind that this reply is an opinion based on my sonic tastes, so here goes. It clearly outperforms Arcam rDac, Dacmagic and Rega Saturn and Rega Dac. At the higher end, its timing is spot on, so better-timing than two Accuphase models I have heard (now obsolete), more natural than the earliest Audio Synthesis Dac and P.S. Audio Ultralink both of which achieved detail by what I call negative colouration i.e. too etched.

Thanks for your assessment. I know the sound of the Audio Synthesis DAC and the Rega Saturn, so your report speaks volumes.
Rich

Gazjam
02-02-2012, 09:59
Like the TC-7510 and TC-7520 before the Caiman, I intend to continue working on mods so that even the older DACs can benefit from improvements. Even at this moment in time I am playing with the TC-7520SEG Silmic mod. A few people have had that mod done to their TC-7520SEG, and they are very pleased.
So no need to panic and think that the older DACs will be left behind unwanted and unloved. Far from it.

Crackin' :)

mikeb
04-02-2012, 21:45
Like the TC-7510 and TC-7520 before the Caiman, I intend to continue working on mods so that even the older DACs can benefit from improvements. Even at this moment in time I am playing with the TC-7520SEG Silmic mod. A few people have had that mod done to their TC-7520SEG, and they are very pleased.
So no need to panic and think that the older DACs will be left behind unwanted and unloved. Far from it.

Hi Stan, I think you may be referring to me! You recently sent me the Silmic mod and as you say I'm very pleased with the results.:)
This is my first post on this (or any forum) and I'm making it to say a big "thank you" and to give something back. My decision to buy the Caiman and later to upgraded with the Gator board was based on the positive reviews provided by members on thgis forum. I have not been disappointed with my purchase so thanks to all those members who took the time to express their views.:) To explain further, I recently emailed Stan to ask if my Gator board was at the latest mod state or if there were upgrades available. Stan offered me the Silmic mod, which I accepted. In return I offered to provide my views on the mod based on compatibility with my system (I use the Caiman as a pre=amp as well as a DAC and use active monitor speakers). Well, as a 'thank you' to Stan and all the members who posted comments, this is what I thought: (NB:I'm using the AD826 op amp). So far I've done about 15-20 hours listening, all CDs, covering diverse stuff from Alison Krauss, Leanard Cohen, David Bowie, Eric Clapton, Peter Gabrial, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Rumor, Elbow, etc to Rachmaninoff & Chopin.
I approach mods/upgrades in a pretty sober way and tend to listen in sessions of about 1.5 hours and see how my views change between sessions.
From the first track the mod had the 'Wow' factor - which I didn't expect. After all, I was happy and impressed with the Gator, a mod was almost risking disapointment. Definitely not a disappointment with the improvements in sound quality covering the whole audio spectrum.
I would sum up the improvements (to my ears) and my experience as:
1. The music is more 'weighty' there's more well defined 'muscle' to the sound which makes every component of the composition more solid, defined and natural - I tend to shut my eyes when listening to help imagine the scene in front of me but I find I don't need to do that now
2. The tonal quality is more 'natural' - voices and instruments can sound scarily real, drums are very well presented and defined, symbols properly 'brassy' and I think the mid and lower bass presentation is great (I also think the bass goes deeper now than before)
3. The dynamic range 'feels' greater - I hear dymanic passages of music at slightly lower volume and still get the peaks
4. Transient attack is better - which is saying something when I use active monitors with ribbon tweeters and the transient response is already excellent
5. There is nothing I don't like about this mod
I've gone back for a second, third and fourth helpings and each time expected to moderate my opions. So far that hasn't happened. I'm not sure if the board needs to 'burn-in' or not. I could hear the difference from the outset but the sound may get better with time. The more I listen and enjoy the music the less I think about the upgrade. I just enjoy playing piece after piece of my CD collection - and I haven't even tried Spotify!
To sum up my views if the Caiman + Gator added P-R-A-T then the Silmic upgrade adds P-A-D (Presence And Definition). Good luck with this one Stan, it works for me.:cool:

The Grand Wazoo
05-02-2012, 00:24
Hi Michael,
Would you mind going over to the Welcome section (http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=15) and starting a new thread telling us a little about yourself, your system & your musical tastes. This is a surefire way of receiving a truly warm welcome from the natives.
As you're new to AoS and all fora in general, perhaps this list of 'How To Do It's' (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7549) might help. If you need any more help just shout & someone will come running.
Thanks in advance.

AmpCity
05-02-2012, 17:22
Bushmaster looks to be the default choice at that price range when it finally comes out!



Thanks for answering that one, I was wondering if it was power related or something else. Bearing in mind what you have said I don't suppose you could recommend a DAC to be used as a preamp with my Quad 606? I will be seeking an upgrade this summer.

If you're looking for a DAC/preamp check out the Matrix Mini-i, or the Audiolab MDAC if the budget stretches further. Emotiva XDA-1 is also a good option, but wasn't amazing in my setup. All have remotes which is a godsend!

StanleyB
05-02-2012, 17:32
The XDA-1 turned out to be a massive disappointment. The software error with the variable output level control was shocking to say the least. Nice remote though.

AmpCity
05-02-2012, 17:47
The XDA-1 turned out to be a massive disappointment. The software error with the variable output level control was shocking to say the least. Nice remote though.

Exactly! Seems to be pretty popular across the pond though.

Any word on getting a listen to the Bushmaster, Stan? ;)

StanleyB
05-02-2012, 17:54
As soon as I got some units available that are in a case I can certainly let you have a listen to one :). At the moment I am limited to just a PCB stuck onto a protective foam base, which has been doing the rounds amongst a couple of London based listeners. I am waiting for the main semiconductors to arrive from their respective manufacturers. 6 to 8 weeks is the quote for production quantities of some parts, which is the main cause of all the delays:(.

AmpCity
05-02-2012, 18:19
As soon as I got some units available that are in a case I can certainly let you have a listen to one :). At the moment I am limited to just a PCB stuck onto a protective foam base, which has been doing the rounds amongst a couple of London based listeners. I am waiting for the main semiconductors to arrive from their respective manufacturers. 6 to 8 weeks is the quote for production quantities of some parts, which is the main cause of all the delays:(.

Sounds good! And I can certainly sympathise with the parts delays, we've had no shortage of the same.

hebda
06-02-2012, 21:54
I also have the Silmic mod with a different setup to Michael, i haven't yet ventured into the active world. I am using Kenwood Amp/CDP with Kef Q35.2 speakers and the Beresford DAC Gator+Silmic mod.

I have to say i was pleasantly surprised by the mod as i wasn't expecting much of an improvement over the excellent Gator, the difference hit my ears straight away.The vocals natural and the instruments wider i could pick out each instrument easily. I was listening to some acoustic sets and it seemed so real you could be mistaken for being there, i really like how this mod has improved the realism of the instruments.

I have a newborn so haven't really had as much time to test as i would like, but the time i have had i was very pleased. I have a varied taste in music from rock, classical to hip hop and i just wanted to play more and more. I had time to test Spotify for a while and even on compressed material there was more definition and a sense of realism to the music...i love it!

Glad Stan is still looking into improving the Caiman, my listening experience is just getting better and better! :)

brian2957
06-02-2012, 22:05
Hi Marc , how did you get your hands on the Silmilc Mod and what does it cost . I don't know whether to go for this or wait for the Bushmaster .
Brian.

StanleyB
06-02-2012, 22:29
I'll start a thread on the Silmic mod in a couple of days. So keep this frequency clear :).

MartinT
06-02-2012, 23:16
Are you specifically referring to Silmic replacements for the caps on the Gator board, Stan? I replaced all the caps on the Caiman's main board with Silmics a long time ago, and it was a very good improvement in SQ.

StanleyB
06-02-2012, 23:46
Now you tell us :doh:.
The mod I devised is primarily aimed at those who have a SEG Caiman. The SEG case was made 2mm higher in order to accommodate the bigger silmic ;). But more about that later in the week.

MartinT
07-02-2012, 00:04
LOL - it was a while ago, Stan:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=118229&postcount=365

StanleyB
07-02-2012, 00:12
I suppose 22 months ago is indeed a long while back :D.
But you tried it on the standard board. You should try that mod on the Gatorized board instead ;).