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Filterlab
22-01-2008, 11:25
Something to tell us? Suggestions on how we may improve the site? Ideas for threads?

Let us know here!

jimdgoulding
30-01-2008, 00:25
Dear Moderator (Hi Rob)- I opened a topic in Musical Compositions called Recordings To Die For. It's had only a few looks and absolutely no replies. So, I start to think . . wa's up with that? Then it occurred to me that there is no such as a recording to die for. So, how's about softening the title to Desert Island Discs. And remove my explanation, too, please. Add something of your own if you would like. Maybe that won't be so intimidating. Thanks. Jim

Marco
30-01-2008, 09:30
Hi Jim

I'll nip in as Rob isn't on line yet. I'm sure he'll give his own thoughts when he arrives.

We can change the title if you wish (I like 'Desert island discs') but I don't think that's the problem because the thread was called 'Albums to die for', or whatever, on Hi-fi Corner, and it took off big time.

No, the problem I think is that unlike on Hi-fi Corner you haven't gone on to qualify the title by naming what your 'Recordings to die for' are. On HFC you named some interesting albums and described them in such a way that it stimulated interest in people to reply. You haven't done that this time that's why the thread has died.

The solution? Get writing what your desert island discs, or whatever you want to call them, are and hopefully the rush will follow! :)

Marco.

Filterlab
30-01-2008, 09:43
I agree with Marco.

I can change the title no problem and I'll add my faves, hopefully others will follow. :)

Mike
20-03-2008, 19:40
Oops, missed this section.

I kind of made a small suggestion here:

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=340 :lolsign:

Cheers,
Mike.

Darrenw
15-04-2009, 09:08
Hi Guys,

cool to ask for feedback - constructive hopefully but here goes....

I like your site but there seems to be way too many rooms for the casual reader - add in the names being a little "creative" and thus mildly counter intuitive it makes it hard work to be here - not I am presuming your intention

anyway I have persevered and am starting to get the hang of things but to be frank until the site grows in number of posters its a bit too thinly spread I suspect

rgds
darren

Marco
15-04-2009, 09:45
Hi Darren,

Thanks for your feedback. I take your point, but the reason the rooms are laid out the way they are is to divide discussions into separate categories for ease of reference later.

This means, for example, that if you read a discussion about a certain moving coil cartridge six weeks ago and want to find it again to seek some further information then you simply go to 'Analogue Art' where it will be archived for your reference and easily found, rather than it being lumped together with everything else in a general hi-fi discussion area and lost amongst a multitude of other discussions. Every room on the forum is also actively used on a regular basis, which shows that the procedure is successful.

Also, although the titles of the rooms are indeed worded in a "creative" way, there is we think a pretty clear and accurate description underneath in 'plain English' of what types of discussion should be posted there. It's just a matter of reading the room description and seeing whether your thread topic applies to the theme of that room or is best posted somewhere else. It's a little different from other forums but I'm sure you'll soon get used to it :)

AOS is different from some other audio forums because we're not just simply a 'hi-fi and music chat room' but also a resource for useful information, some of it quite technical. There is a massive amount of experience and information here on hand for people to tap into, and we want our members to be able to access it at any time as quickly and as easily as possible, hence why we're currently compiling an 'AOS library'.

If you have any other suggestions then please let us know. We will always listen to the needs of our members :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
15-04-2009, 11:43
Hi Guys,

cool to ask for feedback - constructive hopefully but here goes....

I like your site but there seems to be way too many rooms for the casual reader - add in the names being a little "creative" and thus mildly counter intuitive it makes it hard work to be here - not I am presuming your intention

anyway I have persevered and am starting to get the hang of things but to be frank until the site grows in number of posters its a bit too thinly spread I suspect

rgds
darren


Hi Darren

Have a look at AudioKarma for an example of veryyyyyyyyyy complicated and massive. Its like going for a row in the Atlantic, when you have been only used to a small boating lake.

Compared to other forums that have been around for years we are small but growing. AOS isn't for everyone but we both cherish and want to encourage all the members both new and old. AOS is an Oasis compared to the storm swept shores of many other places ;)

Thanks for the feedback.



Regards D S D L

Darrenw
15-04-2009, 17:50
Hi Marco and DSDL,

Thanks for the explination - I suspected it would be by design rather than oversight but wondered if it is putting off users - you say you want to grow the membership and I was simply offering my experience as a casual user of the site - if your target audience is dedicated users who are looking at it as a resource and thus willing to "learn" their way around then perhaps you are right to keep it as it is.

BTW I wasn't suggesting you only had one room but rather you reduced and categorised into areas that were more frequently used.

I think it will put off some users but you seem to believe it is part of what defines the AOS forum so no worries

I find it distracting and difficult to find my way around so will either get the hang of it or drift back to PFM, Wigwam WAD etc.

thought it was worth a mention but it seems you have fairly fixed views of how this place should look so no worries

final point (for me) is the LOGO is quite big which I suspect also contributes to difficulty in navigating round the site (for me at least) - perhaps its just me though....

rgds
darren

Beechwoods
15-04-2009, 17:57
A couple of things that might help understand how many of us use the site...

- Clicking the logo takes you back to the front page, though I know what you mean about the size - especially when I'm surfing the forum on my mobile!

- A lot of us use the 'New Posts' link at the top, under the banner... this brings up a list of all threads updated since your last visit, ordered by when it was updated.

Hope this helps :)

Spectral Morn
15-04-2009, 17:59
Hi Darren

I must confess to having no real problems myself navigating the forum. I am more experienced in these maters now but not that long ago I was very much the PC, internet and Forum virgin so I don't myself understand what navigation issues you might have.

Anyway I for one hope you stick around.:) Once you get to know us all I think/hope you will value AOS as much as I do.


Regards D S D L

Darrenw
15-04-2009, 19:07
Nick

that was useful thanks - seeing all new posts was something I looked for and use on other fora so its handy to know there is on on AOS

I understand how those of you who have grown up with the forum find ways of making it easier to use - will shut up now as its pretty obvious that you guys are happy with things the way they are - will hopefully adjust and stick around - will certainly give it a try

Dalek - its not that I can't get around it is that I noticed how hard it is to adjust - like moving from PC to apple apple is different for the sake of it in some areas and different cos its better in others - I guess I was just wondering if the counter intuitive navigation on this site was done "on purpose" or that you guys hadn;t noticed how it felt to a new user - as you imply its probably just me but I am no internet virgin either so would be surprised if its only me that feels this way

rgds
darren

Beechwoods
15-04-2009, 19:18
We'll keep an eye on things, Darren, and if there's a common theme in people's feedback we'll take it on board :) It's great that people like you care enough to raise these points. I'm sure that your experience isn't unique. Suggestions and constructive comments are always welcome.

Steve Toy
16-04-2009, 00:42
Suggestions and constructive comments are always welcome.

Indeed they are. I did once express concern myself at there being too many rooms. Initially this was to stimulate discussions on specific topics that we hold dear and to focus readers' minds on certain aspects of the audio reproduction chain (i.e. ancilliaries) other than the obvious source-amps-speakers. As time has passed some of the rooms have been hugely successful, others less so and our AV room disappeared altogether.

The Strokes of Genius room is another requiring attention and rather than let it die, Neil has taken on the task of developing it.

The main - or rather default discussion area is the Blank Canvass, although if the topic of discussion lends itself to being in another room it will likely be moved.

I will re-visit the idea of consolidating rooms in the near future subject to agreement by the rest of the admin/mod team.

The Grand Wazoo
16-04-2009, 07:17
Indeed they are. I did once express concern myself at there being too many rooms. Initially this was to stimulate discussions on specific topics that we hold dear and to focus readers' minds on certain aspects of the audio reproduction chain (i.e. ancilliaries) other than the obvious source-amps-speakers. As time has passed some of the rooms have been hugely successful, others less so and our AV room disappeared altogether.

The Strokes of Genius room is another requiring attention and rather than let it die, Neil has taken on the task of developing it.

The main - or rather default discussion area is the Blank Canvass, although if the topic of discussion lends itself to being in another room it will likely be moved.

I will re-visit the idea of consolidating rooms in the near future subject to agreement by the rest of the admin/mod team.


With the number of posts that build up on any forum, you're always going to find a point where it gets bewildering when you're navigating through it. Personally, I find the AoS approach preferable, because early on I saw things that caught my interest & I knew where to go to find them - back to the start. With the opposite approach, the panic sets in when you know you saw a thread of interest but you can't find it amongst the morass of other stuff. Maybe my brain is left handed & Darren's is right handed, I don't know, but I vote that you leave it as it is.

Spectral Morn
16-04-2009, 13:36
The Strokes of Genius room is another requiring attention and rather than let it die, Neil has taken on the task of developing it.



Where else can you get a chance to submit and read for free reviews (well written please with nice photos), that are both informative and educational...such as Barry D Hunts recent item on Ortofon, this is a fantastic well written item IMHO. However all submissions are very welcome, and please don't be put of because you think your not up to it. If you can hear.....get typing.


Regards D S D L

DaveK
24-04-2009, 22:22
Hi All,
Visitors to this forum over the past few days will already know that I am an audiphile virgin (but losing my innocence rapidly thanks to you guys :)). However these same visitors will also have noted that it does not stop me from holding firm (and usually wrong) opinions, so here I go again. I have just stumbled on this thread and I have to say that my initial reaction was EXACTLY the same as darrenw's - too many rooms and with counter -intuitive names. (That's why I have only just stumbled on this thread - too busy and confused navigating my way (not always successfully) through the other threads on which I have posted). darrenw said what I thought but put it much better than I could have done.
It is only thanks to the very warm, friendly, prompt and helpful response that made me stay around long enough to get hooked (you'll all be glad to hear !!):)
In short, I cannot speak highly enough of the atmosphere here but it is, at least initially, a little confusing - no offence to the hard working individuals who put, and keep, it together - you're doing a brilliant job !
Cheers, :cool:
Dave.

Barry
25-04-2009, 01:39
To add my tuppence worth, like Dave&Sue, I have only joined recently and it took me a while to get used to the site and navigate my way around.

The great majority of contributions seem to be responses to various threads and 'New Posts' is where I start. Typing various key words into 'Search' is very efficient and useful to me.

For members wishing to be proactive and not knowing where to place their new threads, the 'Forums Home' page lists the various pages and gives a short description of the appropriate content. If in doubt one can always ask one of the moderators.

One popular thread, maintained as a 'sticky', is the one where members list what they are listening to at the time of posting. Since this is so popular, could it be made permanent and not disappear from 'New Posts' after being read?

Barry

Delighted to read that Dave&Sue are starting to get the best out of their system - it's that sort of news that makes this forum so worthwhile, great fun to read and be part of.

Marco
30-04-2009, 09:43
To add my tuppence worth, like Dave&Sue, I have only joined recently and it took me a while to get used to the site and navigate my way around.


Guys,

I must admit to being somewhat perplexed that people are finding the forum difficult to navigate or confusing. However, quite obviously this is an issue for some new members and so deserves to be looked at.

For us it seems very straight forward...

When joining, the first thing you should notice is the 'Welcome' area; therefore one click here should reveal that the done thing is to pop in and say a quick 'hello' by introducing yourself, your system, and your taste in music. After that, there is 'The Gallery' area where you post pictures of your system (if possible). Then there is 'Our Ethos', which you read and digest before posting, and after that you reach the main area of the forum and 'Blank Canvas', under which is (we think) a clear explanation of what topics belong in there. The same applies with the 'Digital Impression' and all the other rooms.

Yes, I agree the names of the rooms are 'arty' and somewhat non-specific, however, the description underneath each room should provide all the information that is necessary as to what topics are contained within. Therefore I'm struggling to understand where the confusion is... :scratch:

Could I ask that those who initially struggled with the layout inform us of exactly what the problems were so that we can try to rectify them? I should point out that reducing the number of rooms right now is not an option, so suggestions as to tweaking the layout only will be entertained.

Just to underline the procedure we would like all new members to follow when first joining the forum is:

1) On completing registration go to the 'Welcome' area and introduce yourself, as outlined above, making sure that you include your proper first name in your signature and basic location details (town and country) in your profile.

2) Read and digest 'Our Ethos'.

3)When time permits, post pictures of your system in 'The Gallery' area.

4) Participate at your leisure in the main discussion areas of the forum.

5) No PMs should be sent until at least steps 1) and 2) have been completed.

I look forward to hearing any further suggestions :)

Marco.

symon
30-04-2009, 09:54
Marco,

your explanation is very clear. But, I don't think forums can read as linearly as you suggest. I came in through a link to a specific thread and it took me a while before I got round to reading the Welcome sections.
If you want people to carry out specific actions as part of their joining the site perhaps you could include those actions in the welcoming e-mail that gets sent out? Or, make it very clear right at the point of registration that specific things are 'required' as part of being a member of the site.

Hope that makes sense.:idea:

Peter

Marco
30-04-2009, 14:47
Hi Peter,


Marco,

your explanation is very clear. But, I don't think forums can read as linearly as you suggest.


Obviously not! ;)

I read things (anything - books, forums, whatever) from the top (beginning) and then work my way down. Regarding the forum, this is presuming of course that I arrived initially at the homepage. If not, I would always start from that point with any forum and proceed from there.

Presuming one adopts this (rather sensible) procedure when joining AOS, would you agree that everything is pretty much self-explanatory?

I'm just trying to get a handle on where exactly the confusion lies :)

Marco.

symon
30-04-2009, 14:50
Yes, actually. I find the forum quite easy to navigate around. I can't remember exactly what e-mails I received when I joined (I'll have to dig around and find them), but I know that the 'requirement' to sign in and say hello first was easy to pick up once in if not specifically stated at the door (so to speak).
I read books from beginning to end too, and could never understand why you would want to read them any other way. Forums, on the other hand, are a different beast altogether!

Marco
30-04-2009, 15:02
Hi Peter,

Indeed, however I don't think it's too much to ask to start at the beginning of the homepage and work your way down through the rooms and topics, where everything should become clear. This seems normal and eminently sensible to me...

If you adopt some other policy when joining then we can hardly be held responsible in that respect for the ensuing confusion! :eyebrows: ;)

Glad you're enjoying it here, btw :)

Marco.

symon
30-04-2009, 15:13
Yes, I do enjoy it here a lot. I really should participate more. I know I certainly have a lot of questions that I want to ask!

The question is: Where does the homepage begin? This site has the member/hello type section at the top, Lenco Heaven has a similar section in a different place. So, there isn't an obvious starting point (like the first page of a book). Logic does lead you to the Entrance Hall, but forums in general don't follow a consistent logic.

I realise I am talking slightly askew to the main comments here. I think the different sections are fairly explanatory. But, I'm happy that this probably because my weird logic follows the logic of this site ;)

Marco
30-04-2009, 15:44
The question is: Where does the homepage begin?


Here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/index.php

If the above is not showing on your address bar then you're not at the homepage, and also unlikely to be able to follow the 'correct procedure' when joining as a new member ;)

If everyone joins on the homepage then 'logic' should dictate that you start at the 'Welcome' room (at the top) and then work your way down, observing (and acting on) the contents of the rooms in the 'Entrance Hall' in the process, before reaching the main areas of the forum...

It ain't that difficult, I don't think! :)

Let's hear all about those questions you'd like to ask...

Marco.

P.S Can you do me a favour and add "Peter" to your signature, so that it appears underneath all your posts? Ta!

symon
30-04-2009, 15:51
Tis done (I think) - I was wondering how long it would be until someone asked.

I'm quite happy with the forum, so I'm only talking to help, I hope you know that. The point I'm trying to get across is that forums in general don't necessarily read from the top down. Or, I suppose more correctly, people don't approach forums as a thing that starts at the top. It's a bit more look at the picture and dive in to the appropriate bit. At least, that's how I think people approach forums. The thing that I was trying to say might be useful was a more specific hint (instruction) in the welcome e-mail everyone gets specifically pointing them to the Entrance Hall section first.

I suppose another point is that people won't necessarily read what is in each section, even if they go through them in the order you would like them to. It was some time before I got round to reading about the Ethos.

Marco
30-04-2009, 16:07
I'm quite happy with the forum, so I'm only talking to help, I hope you know that.


Of course, and I appreciate your input, Peter :)


The point I'm trying to get across is that forums in general don't necessarily read from the top down. Or, I suppose more correctly, people don't approach forums as a thing that starts at the top. It's a bit more look at the picture and dive in to the appropriate bit. At least, that's how I think people approach forums.


I think you're absolutely right. However, much time was spent organising the layout of the forum so that when presented with the homepage above new users are then 'guided' through the rooms from the 'Entrance Hall' (there's a clue in there!) into the main areas of the forum where the posting procedure should then become self-explanatory. AOS is a bit different from other forums and for good reason. Obviously if you skip bits and 'dive in' somewhere else then confusion is a distinct possibility... It's like reading a story in a book: if you start in the middle then you'll probably miss the plot! ;)


The thing that I was trying to say might be useful was a more specific hint (instruction) in the welcome e-mail everyone gets specifically pointing them to the Entrance Hall section first.


Good idea - however, we don't like too many 'rules and regulations' appearing in the welcome email as it can put people off. We'd rather that new members discovered details of the required procedure from the information contained in the 'Entrance Hall' and throughout the forum in general, even if it takes a little while for it to sink in :smoking:

Marco.

symon
30-04-2009, 17:08
Good idea - however, we don't like too many 'rules and regulations' appearing in the welcome email as it can put people off. We'd rather that new members discovered details of the required procedure from the information contained in the 'Entrance Hall' and throughout the forum in general, even if it takes a little while for it to sink in :smoking:

Marco.

Indeed - which is why I thought a strong hint was more in keeping.:)

The Grand Wazoo
30-04-2009, 17:11
Good idea - however, we don't like too many 'rules and regulations' appearing in the welcome email as it can put people off. We'd rather that new members discovered details of the required procedure from the information contained in the 'Entrance Hall' and throughout the forum in general, even if it takes a little while for it to sink in

Is it possible to have a system where the first post of a new member generates a second welcome type email? This could be congratulating them on losing their 'Art of Sound Cherry' and it could have a few pointers in it........

Just an idea.

Marco
30-04-2009, 19:26
I'll have a poke around and see, Chris :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
30-04-2009, 19:39
Sounds like a nice and friendly way to help guide new members down the path of enlightenment, if it can be done...

The Grand Wazoo
30-04-2009, 19:47
See me? I'm full o' good ideas..................well that's what I think they said!!

symon
01-05-2009, 13:09
By the way, I think the Entrance Hall is a great name for that part of the forum.

Iain Sinclair
05-05-2009, 19:20
By the way, I think the Entrance Hall is a great name for that part of the forum.

http://www.entrances2hell.co.uk/

Darrenw
09-05-2009, 09:48
well its a few weeks since I joined and I am not finding it much easier to be honest - pleased to see Marco that you are asking for views - perhaps we can discuss when I come to you

think hard about the number of rooms - I know you dont want to change it at the mo but its a big issue - some of them could be joined with no loss

will have a think as I surf but the big point here seems to be guys are willing to work through it cos everyone is friendly and supportive - as it gets bigger it will be hard to spread the love so my guess is you will lose members who surf in, lurk and bugger off cos its too hard work

PS that banner is a PITA when surfing on my phone!

rgds
darren

Marco
09-05-2009, 10:08
well its a few weeks since I joined and I am not finding it much easier to be honest - pleased to see Marco that you are asking for views - perhaps we can discuss when I come to you


No worries, Darren. I think we'll need to because I just don't get what the 'difficulty' is :confused:

:)

The banner stays as it is, though.

Marco.

Spectral Morn
09-05-2009, 10:28
Hi DarrenW

I must be honest in that I just don't get what the difficulty is either. Trust me there are places that are awkward to navigate around but IMHO AOS is not one of them and as to the number of rooms look at AudioKarma (sorry to go back to them all the time...great forum, but MASSIVE.) It does not seem to cause them any issues...massive active membership too.

Maybe you could tell us/describe how, in a step by step way, as to how you find AOS awkward to use...this might help us understand where you are coming from.



Regards D S D L

Marco
09-05-2009, 14:09
I should add that one of the most important reasons why there is a good (and we think relevant) selection of rooms is that in some ways AOS acts as a 'forum within forums'.

For example, someone who is only interested in computer audio and has no interest whatsoever in anything analogue, can simply 'live' in the 'Digital Impression' without having 'alien' discussions getting in the way of what interests them, and vice versa for someone only into T/Ts, etc. It's the same for people who are mainly into D.I.Y - they have a section all of their own to 'play in'.

In effect, one can simply ignore the areas of non-interest on AOS (or conversely find areas of interest) quickly and easily. This is quite difficult to do, IME, on other forums which simply have an 'audio' section, as one often has to sift through pages of stuff of no interest to find something worth reading...

It also keeps infamous and often controversial stand and cable discussions at 'arms length' in its own separate section without 'infecting' the main part of the forum ;)

Lumping rooms together would be counterproductive to achieving the above, hence why we're reluctant to do it :)

Marco.

Darrenw
22-06-2009, 20:48
earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

if you are serious about making this place a bigger force on the hifi scene then you do perhaps need to engage in some honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding - you may end up with crooked green teeth!

take a look at any thread on here and you will see the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts and usually end up directing the direction of the thread in some way

not looking to criticis but as you asked I thought it only fair to respond - having been here a month or so now I am sure its got too many rooms and the titles are difficult - what are the social clubs about for instance - why have em if they are not working?

just seen a note from someone about having more rooms than members and other new members have commented about complexity, one asking of there was a classifieds section and suggesting it as a good idea

I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

rgds
darren

Marco
22-06-2009, 21:33
Hi Darren,

How's it going? I hope all is well :)


earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora


I honestly don't have a clue what you mean, mate, and why you feel like this... It really is a massive mystery to me :confused:

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by "rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship". This is especially perplexing! :scratch:

Darren, we'd like to do what we can to help but when you appear to be on a completely different page from the rest of us it is very difficult.


if you are serious about making this place a bigger force on the hifi scene then you do perhaps need to engage in some honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding - you may end up with crooked green teeth!


Can you be more specific please and less cryptic? What do you mean by "honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting"?

New members are posting - and regularly. Do you want some examples? :)

Not everyone will always post often. The forum is constantly evolving. Some people pop in and out, some stay longer, some are here everyday, and some drift away - that's life. I don't think it's something you can accurately analyse.


take a look at any thread on here and you will see the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts and usually end up directing the direction of the thread in some way


I take your point, but why is that necessarily a bad thing? The thing is, "the management team" have lots of combined experience to share, hopefully to help people with less experience get more from their systems and music and/or assist with any enquires. In fact, this is indeed the case.

As you know, I’ve been more than helpful with your cartridge conundrums, as have others. What should we do, sit back and ignore people? I have to deal with numerous queries everyday both from people asking me for advice on the forum and by PM. I can't help knowing stuff, Darren.

You suggest to me what I should do (and others in the management team) and we'll listen :cool:


not looking to criticis but as you asked I thought it only fair to respond - having been here a month or so now I am sure its got too many rooms and the titles are difficult - what are the social clubs about for instance - why have em if they are not working?


The social clubs were a mistake and not my idea. It was a new facility offered by the lastest VBulletin software upgrades, which didn't work out. Beechy will answer this one for you. I think they should go.

As for "too many rooms/titles are difficult", we've already been there, mate.


just seen a note from someone about having more rooms than members...


Well, that's obviously nonsense. We have 1229 members... I don't see 1229 rooms! ;)



and other new members have commented about complexity, one asking of there was a classifieds section and suggesting it as a good idea


Are these old posts you're referring to? We've got a classifieds section, and very busy it is, too - it's called 'Private Exhibitions'...


I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.


Nothing is ever "rationalised away", I can assure you. The trouble we have is understanding exactly what the problems you've got are, simply because we just don't 'get' them. It's almost as if you're watching a different 'programme' from the rest of us.

I'm sympathetic, Darren, and want to help, but I'm honestly at a loss a) to understand much of what your issues are, and b) what exactly you'd like us to do about it :confused:

Marco.

Marco
23-06-2009, 06:55
To further compound how you appear to be out 'on a limb' with your view of things, Darren, here is a typical comment from new members joining AOS, from Bubba45, who just joined today:


Basically I joined this site after browsing the web for info for a restoration of an old TT2 that I have just finished. I had a look at a few different threads and was basically enticed to join because most of the threads were from like minded genial folk who love hifi.


If things were genuinely as you see them, would we be likely to recieve comments such as this on a regular basis? :scratch:

Marco.

DaveK
23-06-2009, 10:31
Nothing personal Marco, (hopefully you know me better than that ;)), but why not let the Abstract Gallery die a natural death - why the constant appeals and apparent determination to keep it open? - if it was serving any useful purpose it would flourish - let it go.
Like I said above, nothing personal :) - you ask for opinions and that is mine - reducing the number of rooms is no bad thing anyway, IMHO.
Cheers,

Marco
23-06-2009, 11:13
Yep, point taken Dave. I see that as being a potentially interesting part of the form and was just trying to keep it 'ticking over' :)

Out of interest, what do you make of Darren's remarks above, from the view of a relative 'newbie'? :smoking:

Marco.

symon
23-06-2009, 12:30
I think I can still classify myself as a relative newbie ;) and I do understand some of Darren's points. But, I need to think out how to express it. I want to make comments which, without care, could be seen as especially negative and whining - which is not my intention. I'll be back...

Marco
23-06-2009, 12:39
Hi Peter,

Cheers. It's important we get to the bottom of this, so we can try to help. Remember, please also make alternative suggestions to what you perceive as a problem - don't just highlight the 'problems'... Offer possible solutions, as you see it :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
23-06-2009, 13:33
Symon,

I like your style.

This place is quirky. We like it that way. It is an oasis of eccentricity in an otherwise over-regulated and charmless world.

DaveK
23-06-2009, 14:07
At Marco's request and without thinking too long about it, I offer my off-the cuff comments on Darren's post..

earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship). Some sympathy with this viewpoint but I'm not sure how you avoid it. As I understand the situation (forgive me if I understand it wrongly), this forum was started by a few very knowledgeabe audiophiles, and perhaps a few others, deciding that they weren't happy with other audio fora available and agreeing to get together, combine their various talents and forming their own forum which gave them what they perceived was missing from previous fora. Whatever the motivation for getting together, what resulted is a forum in which these same people occupy the senior positions, that is the ability to change things is resident in the relatively few hands of the 'parents' of the forum. No parent likes to be told that the 'child' they produced in their own image should be changed - witness the earlier 'spat' when one senior founder (I believe) left in a bit of a huff. It's a bit like the English language - once you let others use it changes will inevitably occur - look what the Sots (sorry Marco ;)) and others have done to it!! It, again like the English language,is better being used by a wider and wider population who bring new ideas, and renewed vigour, thus conributing to it's long term survival. The price to be paid is that your child is no longer yours alone, it belongs to the world at large, and all the better for it - no offence to the founders who have done a brilliant job. I wouldn't have joined, or stayed so long, if I didn't like what I see, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that it could be improved. Nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

if you are serious about making this place a bigger force on the hifi scene then you do perhaps need to engage in some honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding - you may end up with crooked green teeth! Not sure about the "inbreeding" reference but honest self appraisal is never a bad idea - the difficulty is making it honest and giving credence to ideas which are different to your own.

take a look at any thread on here and you will see the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts and usually end up directing the direction of the thread in some way. There is a lot of truth in this, IMHO, but, given the way the forum originated and the truly wonderful way in which these knowledgeable audiophiles make their hard earned knowledge and experience freely available to all who ask for it, (and are actively pestered time and time again so to do by members new and old), avoiding this perception is going to be difficult. Passing on advice when you are asked for it, whilst avoiding passing on your advice when a fellow member appears to be going down the wrong, and possibly expensive path, is a very difficult line to draw. As is a third party's perception that the management team are directing the thread in some way when this line is being crossed. in the third party's opinion. (Bit clumsy, that sentence but hopefully you 'get' what I am trying to say).
not looking to criticise but as you asked I thought it only fair to respond - having been here a month or so now I am sure its got too many rooms and the titles are difficult - what are the social clubs about for instance - why have em if they are not working? - agreed - see my previous comments regarding the Abstract Gallery
just seen a note from someone about having more rooms than members and other new members have commented about complexity, one asking of there was a classifieds section and suggesting it as a good idea - no comment necessary.

I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away (apparently you were wrong, Darren) as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

rgds
darren

Please bear in mind when reading this that no offence is intended to anyone - crticism and opinions were invited and that's what you have got. Unless I am kicked out for posting this :lolsign: - unlikely unless the Management Team are not the people that I believe them to be - I expect to remain an enthusiastic member of the forum for the foreseeable future. Even with it's perceived imperfections it is still a valuable source of information and humour and also a nice place to feel that you belong.
Cheers,

Steve Toy
23-06-2009, 14:36
A fair post Dave. You obviously get what we are about. :) Unfortunately, I don't think Darren does. His criticisms are fair but along with them comes a distinct impression to me that he doesn't really get what AOS is about.

I've said this umpteen times already but the admin team here play dual roles of running the site/moderating and contributing. The two roles are not played out simultaneously.

Just a small point in the face of accusations that we run this place as dictators, how many forums have an area where members can be openly critical of how the place is run?

Marco
23-06-2009, 15:09
I can't think of any, but we mad-boy masochists can handle it 'cos we're thick-skinned and tough as a Rhino's botty! :lolsign:

Dave - all fair points. Nothing is perfect, including this place, but I think you essentially 'get' what we're about :cool:

One thing Steve touched on, which is core to our ethos, is quirkiness and eccentricity in terms of the forum's content; this is very much the case here, but it's coupled with genuine knowledge and experience in many areas, which makes AOS a first-class resource for a multitude of information on all aspects of audio. We think outside of the box, and so encourage our members to do likewise.

AOS will always have a strongly defined 'flavour' because it's full of colourful characters. We don't do bland. So those who are after 'safe' or 'run-of-the-mill', in terms of an audio/music forum, or think in shades of grey instead of multicoloured rainbows, then perhaps here isn't for you ;)

Marco.

DaveK
23-06-2009, 17:21
I can't think of any, but we mad-boy masochists can handle it 'cos we're thick-skinned and tough as a Rhino's botty! :lolsign:I sincerely hope so - if you can't 'take it', you shouldn't ask for it!!

Dave - all fair points. Nothing is perfect, including this place, but I think you essentially 'get' what we're about :cool: I'd like to think so!

One thing Steve touched on, which is core to our ethos, is quirkiness and eccentricity in terms of the forum's content; this is very much the case here, but it's coupled with genuine knowledge and experience in many areas, which makes AOS a first-class resource for a multitude of information on all aspects of audio. Couldn't agree more. We think outside of the box, and so encourage our members to do likewise.

AOS will always have a strongly defined 'flavour' because it's full of colourful characters. I have heard the word "weird" used by long standing members. We don't do bland. So those who are after 'safe' or 'run-of-the-mill', in terms of an audio/music forum, or think in shades of grey instead of multicoloured rainbows, then perhaps here isn't for you ;)

Marco.

Dave.

Puffin
23-06-2009, 19:32
I'm completely bonkers and I love it. No not being bonkers, well actually I do like being as mad as a brush, but I meant to say I love AOS!!!

Marco
23-06-2009, 20:15
You're off yer nut, boy, but you fit in just nicely :eyebrows:

Our latest new member seems to like it, too:


I have been enjoying reading the threads here at TAOS for quite a while, and I think it would be only proper to say hello and introduce myself. My name is Dag and I live in a small town a few miles north of Oslo, Norway.

I wish to thank you for a great forum, and thanks to everybody who has been contributing to the highly interresing "Mod your Beresford 7520" Thread.


What I'm noticing a lot is people lurking for a while, checking us out thoroughly, and then joining and taking part. If we didn't pass the 'test' they wouldn't join. That for me, despite all its 'faults', is the sign of a successful, and growing, forum :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
23-06-2009, 20:17
earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

Hi Darren. I thought I'd post my thoughts. I now have the role of 'Administrator' but I wasn't here at the start. I'm actually member #320. AOS is, with the exception of occasional posts on the Vintage Radio Restoration forum, the only audio forum I've really spent any time in. I joined back in May last year because I liked the vibe here. I was made to feel immediately welcome, despite having no hi-fi credentials, just a mad passion for tape, reels and cassette. I've seen that immediate welcome gievn to many other new members time and again here. I have no agenda when I say I really don't get the characterisation of AOS being something from The Whicker Man.

There are regulars here. I think you'll find that in most communities and forums. The membership and active users are self-selecting - just like on the first few weeks of school, though, members have to make an effort to get involved - to post - but AOS really is the kind of place where you will be given the space to settle. No-ones going to rip into you for liking the wrong kind of music, or listening to it on the wrong kind of kit. I feel that there is a real culture of doing right by others here. The only time that hackles get raised is when there's a whiff of trolling (argumentative behaviour designed to wind someone up)...


if you are serious about making this place a bigger force on the hifi scene then you do perhaps need to engage in some honest appraisal of how it all works and how to get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding - you may end up with crooked green teeth!

We'd love this place to be a bigger force on the hi-fi scene, but none of us on the team would consider selling out to a suburban homogeneity to do so. AOS is a great community. It rejects a lot of the bullshit posturing, willy waving and confrontational rhetoric that seems common elsewhere on hi-fi forums. AOS wouldn't be AOS without being different, and part of that difference is it's more village-type atomosphere. We use our own names, we have the courtesy of remembering to use them whenever we can. It's less like a web forum and more like an old-school club. So be it.

We're getting loads of new members through the door, internationally and locally, and they're posting, so I hardly think our village is the village of the damned.


take a look at any thread on here and you will see the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts and usually end up directing the direction of the thread in some way

I don't help run this forum for a living. I do it because I think it's a great place to talk about music and hi-fi. The same goes for Steve, Marco and the rest of the Mods. No-one's trying to 'direct' the discussion; any more than Chris Grand Wazoo, Dave DSJR, Barry.d.Hunt, Steve Aquapiranha, MartinT, Brian Labarum, Dave&Sue - or any of our other regular posters - do.


not looking to criticis but as you asked I thought it only fair to respond - having been here a month or so now I am sure its got too many rooms and the titles are difficult - what are the social clubs about for instance - why have em if they are not working?

The Social Clubs thing just didn't work out. The software upgrade in Feb made them so difficult to find and check that they've never been used since. When I get the chance I'll be shutting them down cleanly. I think it's far better that we - the members - make the main forum as interesting as possible, and diverting energy into the Social Groups detracts from that. The reason why they've not been closed down earlier, is because they're the bit of the forum that is user controlled. I felt reticent for a long while about closing down something that allowed members to set up their own groups. If future versions of the v-Bulletin software make it easier to make Social Groups work we might try it again but for now I agree; best left.


I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

So what would you suggest in terms of tweaks?

I see your points above, but the keys points seem to be:

regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute
get new members to start posting - think deep south inbreeding
the management team take up a goodly percentage of the posts
too many rooms, and the titles are difficult


I'm not rationalising them away but the first two points make no sense given the number of new members through the doors and the way new members are getting involved and treated. The third assumes that the admin team shouldn't enjoy contributing to the forum, like other members.

Your fourth has been made before. I'm personally not sure it would change the forum significantly to rationalise a couple of the lesser used rooms, but the subtitles of the forums (ie. Private Exhibitions Advertise equipment and accessories for sale. Non-trade ads only) does help clarify their contents.

This has been a longer note than I had intended. I sure don't want you to think that we don't give the comments raised here due consideration...

The Grand Wazoo
23-06-2009, 21:49
Darren,
Don't be discouraged by not being a regular - we all started like that! I remember when Beechy first appeared & now he's management! You only become a regular (if that's what you want from a forum) by getting stuck in & posting.

I actually hate fora, but this one is different & it's the only one I ever pay any attention to. I just can't stand the problems caused by the point scoring crap spouted on so many other examples of the type. As far as I know, I've been involved in perhaps the two biggest bust ups on here but I'm still here posting almost every day.

The answer to the perception of there being too many rooms is to read the sub-title which explains exactly whats in each room.

If you post, you will be treated as a real human being and an equal, no matter what your taste in music or hi-fi, who you are, or the value or type of your gear.

Cheers

symon
23-06-2009, 22:04
earlier in the thread you asked if I could put things a bit clearer and I think I now can - AOS feels like a pub in oulton I went into when I was young - not quite the village of the dammed but a definite sense that the regulars crowded round the dartboard had a say in most things and didnt encourage others to contribute (not by direct action but more by accident due to complexity of structure, rigidness of mindset and an overall feeling of dictatorship) nothing wrong with this but it does end up with me visiting here less often and going back to other fora

This is the hardest bit to explain, but I'll give it a go. AOS does have a mindset, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is a mindset developed from huge enthusiasm and passion. It is also a mindset being established by forceful presenters. It is easy to be swept along and opposing arguments are challenged very forcefully, as is any opposition to the basis of the mindset.
The problem is one of perception because the force of the argument can make people think that there is a form of dictatorship going on. Actually, I just think it is strongly held and strongly defended beliefs and opinions which reflect the current state of play for key members here. For example, someone saying that Tannoy speakers are rubbish, flat, grey bits of cardboard would be in for a very rough ride! The interesting thing is that the discussions would probably make more sense and be less dramatic/threatening in real life.
So, I suppose I am saying that the limitations of the internet are causing problems of perception.
I'm not trying to speak for Darren here. I am speaking for myself and the understanding I have of issues Darren has raised.
Would I change anything? I'm not sure. Maybe I'll come back to this at the end.


I think I have been here long enough now to know this post will be rationalised away as the others seem to have but I chuck it in as a last ditch effort to get you guys to relook at the AOS and think about a change or at least tweak of direction.

rgds
darren
This is interesting because it touches on a bugbear of mine that I do not feel strongly enough about yet to act upon, but now is a good time to raise it.
I think there is a strong element of... I was going to say defenciveness, but it's not that, it's more an occassional blindness to other points of view/experience (I can hear the indrawn breaths already! :eyebrows: ) What I mean is that when someone raises a 'criticism' of the site, it can result in quite a heavy barrage of return criticism and occasionally descends into a rare argument of truly ugly proportions (for here, that is). There have been comments made in this part of the forum which have met with blank incomprehension, a bit of rudeness followed by a huge dollop of over-reaction. I agree with the decision to edit the thread to remove the whole sorry spectacle, but it did leave me wondering why this thread is here. Views are asked for, but then poo-poohed and destroyed very quickly. It is possible to get the impression that views might be requested but they won't be listened to.
I'm trying to hedge what I am saying and probably failing. It can be very difficult to explain what a problem might be. If the 'owners' of the site don't agree with the raised problem there is a tendancy to dismiss the issue and discredit it - turning the issue around and making it a problem with the user and not the site. This is unfortunate because it can prevent people putting forward ideas and issues. It certainly makes me think twice. I think what is happening is the same force of enthusiasm and passion that forms part of the discussion of hi fi components is also applied here. It can come across as being dismissive.
So, what to suggest? Learn some diplomacy for this particular part of the forum? Maybe. I think it is worth reflecting on the fact that just because 'you' don't see/understand/have the same problem with the site that someone else, doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else. It's fine if you don't want to do anything about it, but don't be so brutal in saying this.

I suspect this will raise some interesting discussion. It is not meant as an attack. I hope it comes across as the reflections of someone who does come to the site regularly, even if I don't contribute as much as others yet. I'm the quiet one sitting the corner of the pub watching people over his pint of Spitfire.
There aren't a lot of suggested improvements because I think some of the problems are just perception, and a moment's thought will make that clear. But, there is a need to be aware that forceful argument and constant promotion of a particular mindset is not always perceived in a benign way.

I would welcome responses to this rather long post as I'm not too sure I have explained myself well enough to be understand in a positive way.
I do like it here. There have been moments when I have been put off by some attitudes. But, that is the nature of this place and I am learning to understand it more. I don't mean to be discouraging. I want to be helpful, to help this rather odd but welcoming and friendly place get along and thrive.

Erm, yeah. :cool:

symon
23-06-2009, 22:07
Bah - I can see that I'm going to become a regular just through clarifying and explaining my last post. meh!
I'm quite happy here really! I am a member of one or two other hi-fi fora. I don't post there. I post here, and like the 'village' community.

I'll hush now. I've written enough already!

Beechwoods
23-06-2009, 22:20
There have been comments made in this part of the forum which have met with blank incomprehension, a bit of rudeness followed by a huge dollop of over-reaction. I agree with the decision to edit the thread to remove the whole sorry spectacle, but it did leave me wondering why this thread is here. Views are asked for, but then poo-poohed and destroyed very quickly. It is possible to get the impression that views might be requested but they won't be listened to.

Hi Peter - thanks for your comments. There's lots there and I'll read them more thoroughly tomorrow, but on this one key point... you shouldn't judge the team on the basis of that one incident - this area is for open and constructive discussion, and members should always feel free to post their ideas and suggestions, as long as it's not rude things about me!

symon
23-06-2009, 22:25
I appreciate that Nick. I know that was a one off. But, it was a bad end to something that wasn't going particularly well before then.
Besides, I have no rude things to say about you (well, not until I get the Lenco back! ;):lolsign: )

Spectral Morn
23-06-2009, 22:27
Hi Darren

I am very new only having joined in Nov last year. I like the vibe here and the fact that very substantial thinking on a wide range of audio topics dwells here, both among the management team (including Admin, super mods and mods [like me]) and the regular and less regular membership.

The Art of Sound is a forum with depth unlike many/most others, and one in which those behind the scenes try to be active daily to help create discussion, diseminate information and encourage the members in their audio journeys and encourage them in their postings here. My particular title is Genius Facilitator mod.... I concentrate mainly on the Strokes of Genius section and since being promoted to full mod (recently)the main audio sections of the forum are areas of responsibility too (however SOG is my first love). The main reason I picked the name/title I have, is that I wanted to involve members in writing more in depth items for Strokes of Genius( to facilitate its growth) and other sections of the forum. If I spot anything interesting I will ask the member who interests me (it could be a product or an expertise in a subject I feel should be shared) to write a review. I commission items and encourage members to do the best they can. I could post examples here but to be honest I am just back from a trip to Scotland and I am a bit tired but Barry D Hunt and Grand Wazoo have both been asked recently by me to write items (both brilliantly)....I have also asked many others too, but in their own time their work will be forth coming. I will ask by PM or in the post that takes my interest.

I didn't want SOG to be my sole vehicle for writing reviews (no hogging or dictatorship) so I ask others to take part regularly(and I have noticed other members taking on that role too recently). However its up to them if they do or not (I am not a bully)..so far most have...Thank you those who have.

So Darren I struggle to see that AOS is a dictatorship:confused:...I don't think it is.


Regards D S D L

symon
23-06-2009, 22:27
- this area is for open and constructive discussion, and members should always feel free to post their ideas and suggestions,
I will stick my neck out here and question this. This is probably the biggest area I would like to see done better. Views are requested but they are not always received well. The impression I have is that they are dealt with in a bad way. I would hope that ideas could be received in a more positive way, even if they will not be acted on. I'm finding this difficult to explain and it's coming across as much more confrontational than I had hoped.

this is a good place and I want it to be as good as it can be.

DaveK
23-06-2009, 22:40
I would just like to add my two penn'orth again. Peter's post says very elegantly what I also think but could not express. Reading Peter's posting helped to crystalise my thoughts and I found myself agreeing with him more and more, the more I read. There is, I feel, an unintentional feeling of "this is our forum and it's not up for change - if you don't like it, move on somewhere else". Many of the regular guys on here could be described as MILDLY weird, eccentric and dogmatic in their perception of the 'true light' as they see it. I feel that SOMETIMES passionately held beliefs come across as the only 'true light' and, in turn, this may make anyone with differing views, particularly newbies or lurkers, feel in a minority and therefore unwelcome.
It's a difficult line to draw between passing on beliefs (aka knowledge) to people with no knowledge of the subject but eager to learn and over-emphasising your beliefs to people who legitimately hold different beliefs. In short maybe we need to make it more obvious that contrary opinions are very welcome - remember that we are discussing an art here, not a science, there is no one right answer. All that really matters is that people with contrary opinions can justify those opinions to themselves and be given the opportunity to persuade other people to come round to, or at least seriously consider, their point of view. Debate is good, argument is bad.
Here endeth today's lesson.:)
Cheers,

Marco
23-06-2009, 22:43
I will stick my neck out here and question this. This is probably the biggest area I would like to see done better. Views are requested but they are not always received well. The impression I have is that they are dealt with in a bad way.


Hi Peter,

I'll get to your main post later (probably tomorrow), but regarding the above, aside from the Rob/Waz incident, could you highlight another time when constructive criticism offered has in your opinion been dealt with in a bad way?

This is a learning curve for us all, so I'm just trying to get a better handle on your thoughts so we can do something to improve the situation :)

Cheers!

Marco.

Beechwoods
23-06-2009, 22:48
Don't worry! You're not coming over as confrontational, I know the spirit in which you're posting :) Sometimes the effect of posts here aren't immediate... sometimes they set balls rolling, and changes come later; but the one thing you can guarantee is that the response will be honest. This area doesn't just get ignored!

symon
23-06-2009, 22:55
Don't worry! You're not coming over as confrontational, I know the spirit in which you're posting :) Sometimes the effect of posts here aren't immediate... sometimes they set balls rolling, and changes come later; but the one thing you can guarantee is that the response will be honest. This area doesn't just get ignored!

Thanks Nick. The highlighted bit is very important and I think underscores the great thing about this forum. Sadly, it is probably also the thing that causes dissent and discomfort as well. Such is life.

symon
23-06-2009, 22:56
Hi Peter,

I'll get to your main post later (probably tomorrow), but regarding the above, aside from the Rob/Waz incident, could you highlight another time when constructive criticism offered has in your opinion been dealt with in a bad way?

This is a learning curve for us all, so I'm just trying to get a better handle on your thoughts so we can do something to improve the situation :)

Cheers!

Marco.

Hehe - I knew someone would ask that. I wwill dig through and see if I can find the posts that led me to think this.
I have a pleasant fear that my impression will be dismissed through doing so. But, I'll try and find the things that can be seen in different lights.

The Grand Wazoo
23-06-2009, 23:03
I think a lot of what you perceive stems from 2 things.
1) Some regulars getting on well with each other & being able to judge what they can & what they can't say to each other.
2) The main problem with any internet forum - many things are typed in haste & not thoroughly thought through or explained adequately enough to get the point across. Sometimes, a late, but well judged response is worth 10 snappy off-the-cuff posts.

Some folks have a forceful way of putting things, others are more subtle - if you disagree with something that's said, or how it's said, then say so.

However, your opinion will always be valued and treated as valid.

Marco
23-06-2009, 23:16
Hi Peter,

Thanks. One quick thing I would like to pick up on is this notion that things are ever "dismissed", "rationalised", "pooh-poohed", or anything else suggesting that admin inconsiderately 'bin' people's comments, just because they don't agree with them.

Or as Dave implied:


this is our forum and it's not up for change - if you don't like it, move on somewhere else.


Where you got that from, mate, I've no idea :confused:

Rest assured that every point raised here is carefully considered and acted upon if necessary. The "if necessary" part is the hardest bit to judge, because people's natural reaction to suggestions they've made not being implemented, or rejected, is that they've been superficially or rudely "dismissed" - that is not the case. I understand though it's hard not to feel a little aggrieved when your suggestions have seemingly been ignored.

However, the reality is simply that, after due consideration, what's been suggested was not thought to have been for the greater good of the forum as a whole, that's all. Someone has to be in charge of making the final decision, and that's admin. The fact is it's impossible to please all the people all of the time. Remember also that we have not only to consider the feelings of those expressing their opinions here, but also those of the members who are perfectly happy with things as they are :)

Marco.

symon
23-06-2009, 23:24
Indeed. I tried to link the phrases with the word "impression". It will be interesting to revisit this thread to find what gave me that impression. It will be hard to explain because it will probably hinge on words and comments that can be viewed from different viewpoints - with each viewpoint shading and colouring the perceived intent of the comment.

I'll come back tomorrow with a more researched and reasoned response. But, it is important to note that I am talking about impressions rather. I will be honestly surprised if I find real examples of rudeness.

Marco
23-06-2009, 23:46
Sounds like a question of semantics then, Peter, which is a problem whenever the written word is the sole method of communication - forums are a prime example, and thus a potential hotbed of misinterpretation.

However, I'm intrigued, so see what you can come up with. Something must have triggered that reaction in you. I would be very surprised if it was genuine rudeness, as we simply don't allow that here.

One thing's for sure though, I'll be very curious to see what Darren makes of all this when he comes back... :)

Marco.

DaveK
24-06-2009, 10:04
Na then Marco, if tha gunna quote me, quote the whole bit not just the bit that suits your point of view - naughty ! The full phrase or sentence was, " There is, I feel, an unintentional feeling of "this is our forum and it's not up for change - if you don't like it, move on somewhere else". . Note the words "untintional feeling" - on reflection perhaps my thoughts would have been better expressed as "unintended feeling". The feeling I was referring to is the perception that newbies and lurkers may get from reading some of Admins' responses. I know that that is not what is intended by Admin but to someone with little or no fore knowledge of this forum that is how it sometimes can be perceived, so there !! :ner:
Cheers, (and don't take it out on my cartridge and headshell please :lolsign:).

Marco
24-06-2009, 10:31
LOL! That's a perfectly fair comment, Dave; point noted :)

I just wanted to 'zap' any notions whatsoever that admin ever thought like that!

Your cartridge and headshell are quite safe, unless of course the cat gets them... :eyebrows:

ONLY KIDDING! :lolsign:

Marco.

Darrenw
24-06-2009, 13:30
Hi

not quite back in circulation but had a quick read whilst working in manchester and it looks like there are a couple at least that feel some common ground with my perspective - equally the mod team seem to have their heckles up and in rationalisation mode - in a fairly discreet area of the forum we have found 3 or 4 suggesting changes but still you tell us why we are wrong, how we don;t get it or how we don;t understand - its classic stuff!

I don't agree that I don;t get AOS - I think I just saw, and was confused by, a gap between your stated aim (I recall Marco you said you wanna grow up past 1000 members and get on a par with the likes of PFM and wigwam who had the advantage of an early start) and your actions

your actions to me are one of "join us if you are like us and happy with the way things are" - nothing wrong with this (indeed if I had a forum I would be exactly the same) but its not likely to result in a large forum cos it intimidates and restricts potential membership

my latest thoughts are its a bit like new labour on here - controlling and nanny state cos it thinks it knows best, most of the time not realising its doing it and the impact of its actions is totally at odds with its intended outcomes

my day job is advising people on how to improve their business and I offered what I thought was a constructive observation based on (what I understood to be) the desire to get grow the forum being at odds with the way you guys are conducting yourselves

if now you are clearly stating "we are what we are - like it or lump it" then I withdraw all my comments as they are wholly based on an incorrect assumption that you wanted a diverse, thriving community as opposed to a discreet gentlemans club with tightly defined rules and a very strong culture

I agree its unintentional - on the surface you are all very helpful and knowledgeable and encourage folks to post and get involved

Rgds
darren

Steve Toy
24-06-2009, 13:59
Darren,

I think there is an element of us wanting both to expand and to retain a certain distinctive and subjectivist flavour.

I'd like these two aims to be in conflict as little as possible :eek:. By the same token I really don't want this place to become just like any other (hi-fi/music) forum. Inter as wells as intra-forum diversity is of utmost importance so some of the strong cultural element needs to remain.

Where there are conflicts of interests arising then balance and compromise will prevail to ensure progress.


my latest thoughts are its a bit like new labour on here - controlling and nanny state cos it thinks it knows best, most of the time not realising its doing it and the impact of its actions is totally at odds with its intended outcomes


I hate what New Labour does more than most and I'd hate to think we were anything like them. I do believe that this misconception is borne out of a number of visitors and contributors failing to grasp the fact that the mod/admin team play dual roles of contributors and moderators. The two roles are not played out simultaneously and no viewpoint made by any member of the team is the editorial line of AOS unless this is expressly stated.

You are free to disagree with the mod/admin team and say so. There is a big difference between offering an alternative view based on differing experience on the one hand and trolling on the other, the definition of which is playing devil's advocacy just to get a rise out of people.

Until everyone grasps this point (and even tests it) some will always see us as part of the Nulab Fascist dictatorship.

Marco
24-06-2009, 15:18
Hi

not quite back in circulation but had a quick read whilst working in manchester and it looks like there are a couple at least that feel some common ground with my perspective - equally the mod team seem to have their heckles up and in rationalisation mode - in a fairly discreet area of the forum we have found 3 or 4 suggesting changes but still you tell us why we are wrong, how we don;t get it or how we don;t understand - its classic stuff!

...if now you are clearly stating "we are what we are - like it or lump it" then I withdraw all my comments as they are wholly based on an incorrect assumption that you wanted a diverse, thriving community as opposed to a discreet gentlemans club with tightly defined rules and a very strong culture

I agree its unintentional - on the surface you are all very helpful and knowledgeable and encourage folks to post and get involved

Rgds
darren

Hi Darren,

I'm bowing out of this now because it's banging my head against a brick wall time. I'm sorry, but you are completely at odds with reality. The above in bold is nothing other than your peculiar way of looking at things. Dave and Peter are, despite a few minor issues, to my knowledge perfectly happy here, so I wouldn't include them as necessarily supporting your viewpoint.

How you arrive at this stuff goodness knows. In fact, rather than just the results of your imagination, I'd like to see some actual evidence from the main forum, in the form of direct quotes, to support your accusations above of how we are "conducting ourselves", so please provide some.

However, I'll leave other members of the team to deal with your queries on this thread mainly from now on, as we seem to be at complete odds with each other.

Marco.

DaveK
24-06-2009, 18:21
Hi guys,
I hate doing this as I suspect that it will upset, but the following is a classic example of what (I believe) Darren was referring to when he said management are not open and choose to direct posts according to their viewpoint: -

"I'd like these two aims to be in conflict as little as possible . By the same token I really don't want this place to become just like any other (hi-fi/music) forum." :steam:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement if it was from a ordinary member but as it comes from 'Admin' it is seen as confirming the status quo and not really being open. All I can add to this is to remind you of my earlier posting re: -
if you really want this forum (child) to grow, let it go it's own way. It is no longer your child but belongs to the world at large. If you want to keep it as your 'baby', close it to new members and those who want it to develop naturally.
Sorry if this offends as I have absolutely no wish to upset anyone, particularly anyone who has had any part in creating this forum but, unless we can be open with each other rather than dance around the subject, we will continue to argue.
I shall be very sorry if this gets me excommunicated but that is how I see the situation. :(
Cheers,

Beechwoods
24-06-2009, 19:28
I think you misunderstand what Steve was saying, Dave: that Art Of Sound should have it's own distinctive style and approach. New people are joining all the time - because they like what they see - we don't need to close the doors to maintain some cliquey museum piece.

Think about it like this. People develop an affinity with a brand because they like what it stands for. They know what it stands for and it's consistent in giving them what they have come to like. If a brand moves too far from it's roots it becomes just like it's competition - the people who liked it for what it was move away. It becomes percieved as a 'me too' brand - undifferentiated.

There's a balance to be struck between pleasing the silent majority - reflected in the number of posts we get, new members signing up, and the length of time people are active for - and those who speak up and suggest changes.

If we changed the format of the forum in response to every comment made I don't think the result would please everyone any more than the more considered approach we're taking.

Changes will happen, sure as eggs is eggs. They have before and they will again. And comments here will be taken into account.

And no-one gets 'excommunicated' for speaking their mind in Critics Corner :)

Marco
24-06-2009, 19:43
Spot on, Nick.

I can't really add to that, save to affirm to Dave that Steve's post wasn't intended in the way he interpreted it - and that there's no way would he ever be "excommunicated" over something like that :)

I do find it amazing sometimes what people think they'll get banned for here... Allow me just to reiterate:

NO-ONE WILL EVER BE BANNED FROM THIS FORUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH MEMBERS OF ADMIN IN CRITICS CORNER OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

Hopefully, that should do it :smoking:

Marco.

DaveK
24-06-2009, 19:53
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the response. In my view the balance that needs to be struck is that between "we are happy with the forum as is" and "it's a lovely forum but it could be improved". I have a foot in both camps (me, sit on the fence?, never!! :) ). I was trying to 'put words in Darren's mouth' and that job is best left to Darren - he's proved perfectly capable of expressing himself in the past so I will leave him to it.
At the end of the day I guess that what matters is that the forum continues to grow and flourish. Monitoring the growth in new members each month will confirm or otherwise the 'growth' aspect - the 'flourish' aspect may be a little harder to montor, as joining the forum needs a positive input from the joiner whilst leaving the forum needs no action. By the time Admin realises that more are leaving (or just not posting or visiting ) than joining it may be too late.
As expressed earlier, I am happy with the forum but I cannot get away from the feeling that the 'parents' are determined to keep control of their 'child' whilst permitting others to benefit from being part of it. To repeat myself somewhat, excommunication not withstanding, I expect to be an active and independent minded member for the foreseeable future - I greatly enjoy my time here and while ever my 'maverick' opinions are welcome I expect to continue to do so. :)
Here endeth my final contribution to this thread (unless........)
Cheers,

DaveK
24-06-2009, 20:09
Hi Nick and Marco,
Marco's posting came in whilst I was responding to Nick, so I didn't see it until I had pressed the 'Post' button.
Right, you guys, Lighten up !! My 'excommunication' comment was not a serious one - perhaps I should have put a more humourous smiley after it - sorry. If I had seriously thought that excommunication was a real possibility I would not be here now - I would have resigned rather than give you guys the pleasure of firing me !!
My sense of humour may be a little 'left of centre' and thus not all my 'humourous' comments may be seen as such. Im a dry, (some would say sarcastic), thick skinned Yorkshireman who has had a lifetime of keeping a very straight face when making the most (humourously) outrageous statement. As such I felt that I would be right at home in this forum !! :lolsign: Believe me you'll be in no doubt when I have something serious and controversial to say - in the meantime treat it as humour please - for better or for worse I plan to be around being provocative (with a slight smile on my face) for some time yet

Beechwoods
24-06-2009, 20:22
I very nearly posted this, Dave, in response to your last post - all this talk about excommunication!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI

;)

TerryB
24-06-2009, 21:03
As a newbie, in general, to posting on any forum, I completely agree with Dave's perception of AOS.
However, as someone who has been a past contenteous forum lurker, I can honestly say I do not have any problems with the admin staff or the way in which this forum is handled by the admin personnel, the moderators, or the members.
If I do not agree with the input of anyone, I have no problem dismissing their views as egotistical crap and I move on.
This does not mean I have a fear of inciting a combative discussion, it just is not why I am a member.
I am here to learn and I shall particpate as I see fit. There are entities at this site I will never communicate with directly and others I feel are people better than myself and whom deserve my attention.
I have no issues with getting around the forum, I seem to be able to move directly to the sections which interest me the most and I can review the posts of the members whom I enjoy hearing from.

I want to thank all the members for either pissing me off or placating my advanced humor.

Cheers,

Terry

The Grand Wazoo
24-06-2009, 21:09
There are entities at this site I will never communicate with directly...........

This sounds a bit ominous Terry - are there people (or things) we should know about?

Marco
24-06-2009, 21:33
There is a big difference between offering an alternative view based on differing experience on the one hand and trolling on the other, the definition of which is playing devil's advocacy just to get a rise out of people.


Any candidates in mind for the latter? ;)

Incidentally, that was a rhetorical question!

Marco.

DaveK
24-06-2009, 22:10
"There is a big difference between offering an alternative view based on differing experience on the one hand and trolling on the other, the definition of which is playing devil's advocacy just to get a rise out of people."


Any candidates in mind for the latter? ;)

Incidentally, that was a rhetorical question!

Marco.

Hi guys,
I hope that the above quote (in blue) is not aimed at me. :( I am quite happy to be provocative to elicit a response, even ocassionally to overstate the case to make a point ;) , but I am not in the business of expressing any view on any subject on this forum that I do not genuinely hold to be true. I can play Devil's Advocate if I believe the need arises but never without making it clear that that is what I am doing. I enjoy discussion and debate but I do not believe in misleading anybody just to start an argument - as I posted earlier, debate is good, argument is bad. Others may have difficulty differentiating between the two.
If the above quote is not aimed at me please feel free to ignore this post. :)
Cheers,

Marco
24-06-2009, 22:20
<Ignored> ;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
24-06-2009, 22:27
Dave, it wasn't aimed at you. At least I don't think so. ;)

Steve Toy
24-06-2009, 22:28
Thanks Terry. :)

Marco
24-06-2009, 22:49
Dave, it wasn't aimed at you. At least I don't think so. ;)

Just to make it abundantly clear: NO IT MOST CERTAINLY WASN'T.

:)

Marco.

Darrenw
25-06-2009, 14:50
must have been me then - bowing out of this thread now.

cheers guys - apologies if I caused any upset - certainly not my intention, best of luck with the development of AOS


Darren

TerryB
25-06-2009, 15:14
must have been me then - bowing out of this thread now.

cheers guys - apologies if I caused any upset - certainly not my intention, best of luck with the development of AOS


Darren

Darren,

I, for one, am not upset by any of your posts. You had some valid concerns and freely communicated them. That is what I perceive as the nature of this particular thread.
Besides, your posts offered an interesting distraction (got me into the "Critics Corner" for the first time).

Thanks for that Darren,

Terry

Steve Toy
25-06-2009, 17:57
On the contrary Terry - no upset.

DaveK
25-06-2009, 18:11
Darren,

I, for one, am not upset by any of your posts. You had some valid concerns and freely communicated them. That is what I perceive as the nature of this particular thread.

Thanks for that Darren,

Terry

Hi Darren,
I for one would like to be associated with the above sentiments. :) Hope you are still monitoring, even if you have bowed out from contributing.
Cheers,
Dave.

Marco
25-06-2009, 18:57
Ok guys, now that the dust appears to have settled, I'd like to spell out a few 'home truths' as far as Critics Corner is concerned...

We're considerate enough to provide our members with a facility to air their views, so people should be grateful they've got that opportunity in the first place and that we genuinely care what our members think. The fact is, most other forums don't offer this luxury!

However, once we've listened to what people have to say, there's been reasonable discussion on the matter, and admin have made a decision, then members must have the courtesy to respect that decision and leave it at that. These endless circular arguments have to stop.

It's simply not on being downright rude, along with continually arguing, insisting on having the last word, with those in charge who pay for this site (it is not free!), and who thus provide people with the opportunity to be part of this community. In doing so, it is both discourteous and disrespectful, as it is abusing our generosity as well as our hospitality.

Quite frankly, if some people here wish to have the level of influence that they seem to think they're entitled to, then we'll gladly invoice them for a share of the running costs!!! ;)

I do hope the message hits home and that people can learn to respect the facility we're providing and use it constructively. We will always listen, but at the same time, we're under no obligation to effect change when it is considered to be detrimental to the interests of the forum as a whole. Any changes that are made must be in step with our vision for AOS and what we are working hard to achieve.

In that respect, the Social Groups area has been removed, as suggested by Darren, as it clearly wasn't working. When we feel that ideas put forward by members are of genuine benefit to the forum, they will always be implemented.

Now, on a more positive note, let's all get back to making AOS the friendly and special place that it is! :cool:

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-06-2009, 02:03
None of us are perfect as no hi-fi system is perfect. There are always trade-offs and compromises. If the system is 99% perfect the pursuit of that last one percent could knock the whole system out of balance or throw too much detail at you at the expense of a hitherto enjoyable and involving sense of timing and coherence.

So it is with the forum. In pursuit of that last 1 percent we end up losing our identity and what brought you here in the first place. Ultimately we end up dropping to 70% of perfection as a result.

Spod
27-06-2009, 22:07
Just read through this entire thread and can't believe no-one's mentioned it.... am I really the only one who doesn't like being called a "member" ?

Other forums I'm on either let you choose your own or a have a context-related label. Admittedly, it doesn't always work, I spent quite a while as "Just a Little Girl" on one forum, but still, prefer that to being identified as the part of male anatomy most likely to cause distraction from listening to the system...

Could be interesting thinking up replacements after all... "Binatone twin cassette player" for newbies (£20, chewed the first tape I tried to play in it), for example?

Slowly make your way up to ... hmmm, I think that's where the arguments begin!

Marco
27-06-2009, 23:06
LOL! :)

Ok, two things:

1) What's your proper first name? (You should add it to your sig).

2) What would you like your title to be under 'Spod', and I'll arrange it :cool:

Marco.

Spod
28-06-2009, 00:23
LOL! :)

Ok, two things:

1) What's your proper first name? (You should add it to your sig).

As I said in my introduction thread, I really am known as "Spod". Have been since I was six. When I argue with myself I address myself as Spod. When I'm falling over drunk and trying to order myself to bed I issue orders to Spod. When I've cocked up, I ask Spod what on earth he's done. It might not be on my birth certificate, but it is my identity. I am Spod. (a name that really, really seems to annoy people that want to be unnecessarily formal .... by which I mean women!)

That's Spod. Not "Spud", which was the name on my table placing at my brother's wedding. To a woman who refuses to call me Spod. Coincidence?

And what's the point of having a forum name, then a different name in your sig? Barmy as far as I'm concerned.


2) What would you like your title to be under 'Spod', and I'll arrange it :cool:
Marco.
As I started it, I suspect "Deaf Drunkard" would be suitable!

Marco
28-06-2009, 00:39
And what's the point of having a forum name, then a different name in your sig? Barmy as far as I'm concerned.


Because if your username is 'zlleptoil204', or somesuch, we want to feel that we're addressing a human being, not an android ;)

Spod will do though!

"Deaf Drunkard" has now been added as requested :)

Marco.

Spod
28-06-2009, 02:09
"Deaf Drunkard" has now been added as requestedPardon?


Hic.

;)

Steve Toy
28-06-2009, 10:43
I tell ya what Marco, we bend over backwards for some of these people...

That's Spod happy now anyway.

Marco
28-06-2009, 11:48
Aye. We always go the extra mile, us; so we do :)

Marco.

PRYML
01-07-2010, 09:07
Hail, O Mighty Forum Overlords! :king:

To date, I've been relatively content with the excellent work you've been dispensing :mex:

However, having said that, there are times when I wish to bring up a particular subject but stopped myself; for "fear" that the subject might've been broached before and I'd (by implication) be labelled as being too lazy (which in fact I am :lol:) to scour the forum for the relevant thread.

So for convenience sake (subject to the limitations of whatever software you're running) and to assuage my fragile ego, would it be at all possible to implement a search feature in the forum to accommodate lazy people such as myself? :eyebrows:

Regards,

Malek

Marco
01-07-2010, 09:13
Yo baby, iz yoo blynd? :eyebrows:

The search button is up at the top of the page between "New Posts" and "Quick Links".............

Betta get yaself a new pair of bi-focals!! :lol:

Marco.

PRYML
01-07-2010, 09:23
See the extent of my Sloth??? :lol: I couldn't even take the effort to properly scan the entire page for that all-"elusive" Search feature :-P

Regards,

Malek

p.s. Got 20/20 vision (and beyond); so not quite ready yet to subject myself to having anything (aside from the rest of my face) perched on the bridge of my nose :)

Marco
01-07-2010, 09:53
See the extent of my Sloth???


Hehehe.... Indeed! Anyway, Malek, as long as you're happy now me old chum :cool:

Marco.

Steve Toy
02-07-2010, 00:28
Upon bending over backwards we fail to see what we've already done to accommodate folks.

Such is life eh? ;);););)

Reid Malenfant
01-09-2010, 19:41
Hmmm, i guess everyone is different. Just had a basic look at this thread from the beginning & kind of skipped through it ;)

Tbh i don't think there are too many 'rooms' as some like to call them :)

I have been on quite a few forums & in all honesty it did take me a while to work out where to post stuff as imo there aren't that many at all :eyebrows: Once you get round the rather obscure (but aptly named) sections it all begins to make some sense.

I was a mod on a couple of forums (nothing to do with hifi or music) & these all had far more sections & subsections on the sections :lol: Strangely this made some sense, it took me a good week or two to find the right areas here to go about my business without fear of getting stuff moved.

All good things come to those who have a little patience :eyebrows: Speaking from someone who is or used to be used to about 50 sections on a forum or more.

One thing i have noticed is that there are a good quantity of extremely nice people on here. I have been & still am involved with certain people that i have met elsewhere on other forums, though i have never gotten to the stage of actually trading with any other forum members except on here. It appears to be a given thing that no-one is going to mess anyone else about. Though it's the butt end of 'forum police' jokes i actually think that getting members to provide a basic location & first name is a damn good thing, it gets it on a more personal level & this is where trust is gained.

It appears to be a rather good place to be :pub:

Me, i just want to say well done to Marco, the admin & mod team :respect: A big thumbs up to all the members that make this place what it is to, no members = no forum ;)

Not that the mods have much work to do imo :eyebrows: Take it from me, you have a very nice life here as a mod, unless i'm missing something? 2536

If i can think of anything that might improve things here i'll speak up rather than just praising the place :lol:

Spectral Morn
01-09-2010, 20:10
Cheers Mark we all do our collective best :cool:


Regards D S D L

John
01-09-2010, 21:28
It can get messy sometimes Mark but its a great place

Alex_UK
01-09-2010, 22:33
I can hear Elton's dulcet tones in the distance - Can you Feel the Love Tonight... Heck, I'm even playing George Michael (really!) so a manly group hug with plenty of back patting (and nothing else!) is in order! :)
:grouphug:

Marco
02-09-2010, 09:14
Speak for yourself, dahling - you know what that scent of the Paco Rabanne on your frillies does to me.... :eyebrows:

Thanks for your kind remarks, Mark - we aim to please!

Marco.