View Full Version : Got the Rega RS3's in place last night..great BUT..
Finally upgraded my speakers, got a set of minty Rega RS3, like new less than a couple of years old.
Fantastic sound, now I know what PraT is and a proper soundstage!
Still to play about with positioning etc will do that as the weekend.
I dont think my speaker cable (Sterling Black mamba) is suited really, as the sound is a bit more shiney and bass light than I would have expected.
I remember installing the Mamba gave my previous AE109's a kick up the arse as they were sounding quite dull and laid back at low volumes with the likes of Van Damme Black and Gotham cable..
Maybe a bit much with the Rega's..the top end is in a different league but quite excitable..and maybe I have a cable that heightens that?
The chap that sold me them advised me of this and he recommends Mogami cable for the RS3's.
He describes the Mogami as "meaty" sounding cable ideally suited for the Rega's.
Could be a room thing as well I suppose, my room is quite bright sounding.
Any thoughts / recommendations?
freefallrob
02-11-2011, 13:45
Have you still got the Vandamme Black? Maybe worth a try if you have.
Otherwise I like Supra Rondo 2x2.5 or 4x2.5, or Kimber 4PR.
Rob.
wee tee cee
02-11-2011, 13:50
Ive got 2x4m runs of van damme blue 2.5 mm stuff I bought from Mark Grant.
In addition I have some atlas and belkin flat stuff.
Im starting a run of lates but could put them aside in a bag If you fancy giving them a try.
Should have some banana plugs kicking about as well..
Regards Tony.
Thanks for the Offer Tony, would be helpful mate, cheers.
As luck would have it I'm actually working now in Thornlibank (In the Ind. Estate) so handy for nipping over and picking them up?
Just whenever it suites you mate with shifts n stuff.
Thanks,
Gary.
bennyboyph
02-11-2011, 18:11
Rega have their own cable, which is worth a try. Cable talk 3.1, Naim NACA5, and Mogami are all worthwhile options too.
NOT Cable talk 3.1, but 4.1 or Excel4 as well as the Concert "green pipes" would be far better for Rega speakers of any generation - been there, read several libraries, demo'd and sold many km of wire to prove it and worn out a wardrobe full of tee shirts ;)
You don't want a "character/tone control" cable with Rega's current speakers. Welcome to the road to recovery from those godawful 109's :lolsign:
What cable would you recommend then Dave as a "Fit n forget" for the Rega's...would like to source some Mogami as its STRONGLY recommended by the chap who sold me the Rega's, but dont know which is the best one to try.
Something fat n coppery I'd reckon?
(which I thought the Mamba was...but ah well..)
Have to say,
the Rega's make the 109's sound like they had a duvet over them...but the bass was better! (with my current cable anyway)
Look at the 109 crossovers to see the value of resistor is in series with the tweeter. I seem to remember one of several ohms I think. Taking this value down to 1.5 ohms or so may sort the 109's out - and you now have the RS3's as reference - nowt wrong with the RS3 bass and mid IMO...
Don't go wild on calbe gauge. 2.5mm should be fine and if Van Damme blue is too 'orrible to look at, the Fisual 2.5 in white should make for an excellent and sensible alternative.
Which Cambridge amp do you use?
Look at the 109 crossovers to see the value of resistor is in series with the tweeter. I seem to remember one of several ohms I think. Taking this value down to 1.5 ohms or so may sort the 109's out - and you now have the RS3's as reference - nowt wrong with the RS3 bass and mid IMO...
Don't go wild on calbe gauge. 2.5mm should be fine and if Van Damme blue is too 'orrible to look at, the Fisual 2.5 in white should make for an excellent and sensible alternative.
Which Cambridge amp do you use?
Cheers Dave,
will have a play with the 109's as a project when time permits.
Need to update my signature actually, I was using a Cambridge 540R AV amp as a stand in (sold the 640A), but now I'm using a Temple Audio Bantam Gold.
Sounded fabby with the 109's - could this be a cause for lack of low end?
Would the mono-blocks be better, maybe using my Caiman as a Pre?
First up cable though...used to have Van Damme black tour grade which would have been ideal to try with the Rega's.
The Mamba aint exactly lacking in the copper department and I'm surprised they dont work as well as with the AE's.
Or are the Rega's quite fussy in which kit they are partnered with?
Confused as the Mamba cable is highly thought of as are the speakers and amp...
help!
As I've been told, Alex's T amp isn't the last word for this technology, but my take on the RS3's is that a ballsy amp really would be better, whatever technology you use and the speaker cables won't be such an issue IMO once this is sorted :)
something like Rega's new Brio....?
Better get saving (gawd does this never end! ;))
I'll be accused of shilling yet again................
PM then Dave?
..actually,
I'm applying the latest SB Touch Mods and the first step is to disable any current changes and reset to Factory Default...
updated firmware, reset to factory default...the sound is different. Better. :scratch:
Perhaps the Rega's are a more transparent speaker to the changes...?
bass is better...
Now to apply the rest of the mods.
I think youre just gonna get used to the regas presentation. Imo AE109 lack treble and have boomy bass so the difference is not subtle.
Butuz
Gary, this may not be the answer, but all I can do is relate my own experience...
When I got shot of my AE Aegis Evo 3 floorstanders for the Spendor SP1's (which are not a million miles away in tone from the RS3's, even if the technology/implementation is) the first thing I realised is that the AE's were very much emphasising bass - I pretty much thought the Spendors were broken to start with, because on some tracks it seemed very recessed. What I came to realise though, was that the Spendors are just being more truthful than the AE's were, which after 6 years was a bit of a shock - they really did have "one note bass." It took me a good few weeks to get "used" to it, and the only way I was able to satisfy myself that everything was ok was to find some really bassy tracks, which I then realised I could follow the bass, rather than just hear the boom. (Got any Deadmau5?) What I found with the change was that the quality of the bass had improved, and I was able to hear subtle differences in the lower frequencies which gave the impression of less bass, when in fact it was better bass.
Of course, may not be relevant to you, but just thought I'd share. (And I just use a cheap-ish copper multistrand cable from Mark Grant - the Van Damme Blue replaced it, which I am sure would be more than adequate.)
Finally, though, I have to say that my new Brio R is in a different league altogether compared to my Mini-T... Seriously, get yourself along to a Rega dealer and hear the RS3's with the Brio R up 'em - I don't think you'll be complaining about lack of bass... ;)
jandl100
03-11-2011, 06:49
Hi Gaz - I've a spare pair of forum-fave Belkin speaker cables that I'd be happy to loan/sell if you fancy trying them. :)
LittleTone
03-11-2011, 09:59
Gary;
I had to buy some speaker Cable recently as I needed longer runs. I have no regrets purchasing Rega's own cable which is very reasonably priced compared to the Chord Odyssey 2 it replaced. I guessed it should be a good match for their Rega Brio R and it didn't disappoint.
Regards
Tony
I think youre just gonna get used to the regas presentation. Imo AE109 lack treble and have boomy bass so the difference is not subtle.
Butuz
Did a comparison last night between the Rega's and the AE's...
The AE's are quite "boom n tizz" compared to the RS3's, just not as refined or subtle.
They DO pack a whallop that the Rega's cant seem to match, but I'm getting some Mogami cable in (on firm recommendation for the Rega's) so will see how I get on with that in comparison to the Black mamba.
thanks for the offer to try some cables guys, will see how I get on with the Mogami first.
G.
Gary;
I had to buy some speaker Cable recently as I needed longer runs. I have no regrets purchasing Rega's own cable which is very reasonably priced compared to the Chord Odyssey 2 it replaced. I guessed it should be a good match for their Rega Brio R and it didn't disappoint.
Regards
Tony
What cables that Tony, might go the all rega route at some point...love the speakers.
Hi Gaz - I've a spare pair of forum-fave Belkin speaker cables that I'd be happy to loan/sell if you fancy trying them. :)
Thanks Jerry - have a set of those in the bedroom system!
Never thought to try them actually....:scratch:
Gary, this may not be the answer, but all I can do is relate my own experience...
When I got shot of my AE Aegis Evo 3 floorstanders for the Spendor SP1's (which are not a million miles away in tone from the RS3's, even if the technology/implementation is) the first thing I realised is that the AE's were very much emphasising bass - I pretty much thought the Spendors were broken to start with, because on some tracks it seemed very recessed. What I came to realise though, was that the Spendors are just being more truthful than the AE's were, which after 6 years was a bit of a shock - they really did have "one note bass." It took me a good few weeks to get "used" to it, and the only way I was able to satisfy myself that everything was ok was to find some really bassy tracks, which I then realised I could follow the bass, rather than just hear the boom. (Got any Deadmau5?) What I found with the change was that the quality of the bass had improved, and I was able to hear subtle differences in the lower frequencies which gave the impression of less bass, when in fact it was better bass.
Of course, may not be relevant to you, but just thought I'd share. (And I just use a cheap-ish copper multistrand cable from Mark Grant - the Van Damme Blue replaced it, which I am sure would be more than adequate.)
Finally, though, I have to say that my new Brio R is in a different league altogether compared to my Mini-T... Seriously, get yourself along to a Rega dealer and hear the RS3's with the Brio R up 'em - I don't think you'll be complaining about lack of bass... ;)
Alex,
Did a comparison between the AE's anf teh Rega's and your right...very different presentation but the rega's just do it far better.
A bit bass light...not so bad when I tweaked my SB Touch with the new mods but theres room to experiment with cables.
The Bantam will be replaced with the Rega Brio-R when the funds are there. :)
I dont think my speaker cable (Sterling Black mamba) is suited really, as the sound is a bit more shiney and bass light than I would have expected.
.........
Any thoughts / recommendations?
That's the the Rega loudspeaker house sound and nothing to do with the cable.
Rob.
wee tee cee
04-11-2011, 11:11
Gary,
I demoed the rs3/rs5 at glasgow audio and found the same conclusions as yourself.You can swap sides with them,firing the bass port outwards or inwards to alter the bass.
Before you go swapping the bantum gold your welcome to hear the mono blocks at my place if you feel its a lack of oomph .
I found the Rega DAC to emphasize the areas your lacking so maybe its a Rega house sound designed to work with theyre kit.
Just a thought but you could have a go with my Naim nait5i to see if that works.
I cant help but think the Mogami cable would be acting as a tone control.
Regards Tony.
LittleTone
04-11-2011, 11:47
Hi Gary
I bought Rega's own FSC Quattro. Sort of under the impression that this cable would a good choice to use with their own equipment. Try and listen to some music with a double bass playing and see how well the Rega speakers folllow that. I suspect you,ve lost the boom; not the bass. I've just gone thru the same; swapping Mission 753 Freedoms for Royd Doublets.
Regards
Tony
I dont know the AE109s but see that they have two mid-bass units which is likely to add more bass weight than the Rega's (good or bad bass).
I bought a load of Rega cabs from a guy at an Audiojumble who picked up seconds from Rega. I had some RS7, RS5 and RS3. The design is that the top mid/bass unit is in a small sealed chamber at the top of the cab. In the RS3 the side firing unit is the same size as the front unit. A bit of an ask to get a lot of bass out of a 4.5" (or is it 5") unit. The RS5 and RS7 use a 7" side driver. I got reasonable bass out of them using the side firer actively. However that is not something you would want to do as that means dismantling the speaker crossover.
Ali Tait
04-11-2011, 13:20
What's the Rega load like?
Gazjam,
Have you tried physically swapping over the left and right loudspeakers? There is a big difference in sound between the two arrangements.
Andrew
Not tried swapping the speakers over Andrew, general opinion seems to be they sound better with teh bass drivers firing outwards?
Will try this weekend though, have a bit more time.
On teh subject of speaker cable, I've been looking at Mogami which seems to be well thought of.
From the website here:
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/conventional_configuration/
theres the 2921 Quad and the 2972 Quad which are similar but have slightly different specs.
Wondering which one is the "best cable" according to specs.
2921 4 core 2.5mm wire
Same inductance but SLIGHTLY higher capcitance
2972 4 core 2mm wire
same inductance but SLIGHTLY lower capacitance
Is it worth getting the 2972 (which was the type the chap who had the Regas had and strongly recommends - though he says any good Mogami cable is good with teh Regas in terms of being "voiced" to bring out the best in them if my system sounds bass light..)
or the 2921 as I can get them pre terminated in 2.5m runs all ready and good to go?
I'd be buying the 2972 unterminated for about £50 so there would be extra cost getting z-plugs soldered on etc.
Cost wise the 2972 would be more expensive but if theres a big difference between the cable quality (due to tech specs) then Id go for that.
Or are both cables much of a muchness? :scratch:
Like I've said countless times, the AE109's have a thumpy bass and little to no treble, the transition being a sharp step down to the tweeter right where the ear is most sensitive :(
All Rega speakers have a crisply balanced treble, mainly to make the best of their vinyl sources. given a decent neutral analogue or digital source though, they should be easily able to rise to the challenge..
Dave,
I know thats the case :)
and having compared them directly its obvious.
Im asking about ways to maximise the bass though to get back SOME of that slam which was one of the good points about the AE's.
If a cable change can do it then cool.
:)
thanks,
G.
GET A PROPER AMP!!!!!!!!!!
I poo-poohed the comments that there's bass, and also boom masquerading as bass until I heard this for myself and, imo, it's very true indeed. REAL bass from smaller boxes just doesn't have the impact of, say, a pair of huge Tannoys like Marco's, so the ports in modern squeakers tend to thump things up a bit instead, which is so easy to get used to.
The RS3's have far more of a "proper" bass. This means that there's no boomy-thumpy sludge, but to get "projection," you'll need a proper amp with a nice large transformer. There are plenty of good used possibilities and for me, a nice "clamshell" Mira or Luna integrated or Mia? power amp would be a great place to start.
Sometimes, we have to unlearn some things to move on to the next level - and this is from personal experience......
noted Dave...and i agree.
New Rega Brio-R sounds like a good move, lots of praise and it looks like the best in the price range.
good match for the RS3s too no doubt.
Will be passing on my Sterling Black mamba as its too thick and too short for my revised layout with the Regas..
anyone any thoughts on the two types of Mogami cable I mentoned?
Slightly lower capacitance, 2 x 2mm vs 2 x 2.5mm worth shelling out extra for?
I know long term amp change etc is better, just a specific question about this cable.
thanks.
been a long time since I posted here, and may well be as long before I do again. If you want to really here what the 3's can really do listen to a Brio-r by all means, its a fabouls amp for the money, try and listen to them with a Cursa maia as well. Neither will be the Hi-Fi experience that some may be looking for, but they do, do music which is what I want.
If the spate of 2.5mm speaker wires from eBay/Van Damme don't push the button, then the Talk Electronics cable at £4 per metre may be the compromise you're looking for. A mate bought some on the advice of Deco Audio in Aylesbury (old mates of mine from years ago and trustworthy IMO) and rates it very highly.
If the spate of 2.5mm speaker wires from eBay/Van Damme don't push the button, then the Talk Electronics cable at £4 per metre may be the compromise you're looking for. A mate bought some on the advice of Deco Audio in Aylesbury (old mates of mine from years ago and trustworthy IMO) and rates it very highly.
Had some Cable talk 3 and 4 years ago, very good cable.
The New version looks good and at £4/m maybe worth a punt.
Can always use it in the bedroom system.
Any thoughts Dave about which mogami is the "better" cable?
Or is there actually any real world difference between cables, one with a slightly lower capacitance?
Dont really want to faff about with cables too much, want to fit n forget and I have an option to buy some Mogami 2921 pre-terminated.
I'll go for the other stuff if its obviously better - cant really tell from the specs (but how could you?) :)
I don't know the Mogami stuff so cannot really comment TBH - sorry.
I don't know the impedance curve of the RS3's, so cannot say objectively whether you'd hear masses of differences in cable types and gauge. The thing is, once you have an amp with the relevant "muscle" for them - I second the Cursa/Maia combo if you can find one cheap enough - the Brio R is all new apparently and not based on earlier designs - many of the issues should evaporate, leaving a lively sparkle which isn't at all unpleasant and that will put some life back into mid-level vinyl (it's ok with a Decca as well to be fair).
Just get a reasonably priced speaker cable made with decent materials and no "foo" and start from there. The Talk stuff is based on the old Theatre 2 I think and this was fine. The old 4.1 DID sound better than 3.1 (same copper though.....) and this was put down to the insulation used. The "Excel" versions were fig-8 type, since many people didn't want the dumbell construction and many southern Sevenoaks dealers couldn't be a*sed to explain and sell it to their AV and WTF-reading clients, doing themselves out of a better sound (returning to the bad old bell-wire days) and more profit than QED Micro, which was all the rage back then and sold in huge numbers :(
Why do I know all this? It's two years out of my life I'd rather forget in all honesty......... :scratch:
Cheers dave. :)
Im at the point where I'm all for "fit n forget" with this stuff but as you say, maybe need to unlearn stuff to move on.
Thanks. :cool:
Apologies if I appear patronising :mental: - I do try not to be, but life and career events lately have left me a little more unhinged than usual and I need to reset the "balance."
You'll get there in the end, I promise you and will genuinely have a better sound at home for it...
Hi Colin,
been a long time since I posted here, and may well be as long before I do again.
Welcome back! Please stay and contribute your thoughts. We value your opinion :)
Marco.
Not at all Dave :)
We'll all get there mate...and as you kept saying ;) changing the AE109's has made a big improvement to the sound I'm getting at home.
Definately liking the Rega sound, had a Planar Turntable way back when and Im hearing some of what i liked about that with the Rega speakers.
Going to hear the RS3's with the Rega amp and maybe the Dac too, to see how it all gels in comparison to my Caiman/bantam setup.
wee tee cee
06-11-2011, 12:50
Gary,
Why not take your dac/amp along to glasgow audio in great western road and demo the Rega kit in one sitting.Your contemplating changing your whole set up to suit the RS3s. I found the RS5s offered far more of what you seem to hanker after but still didnt do it for me.
Your a long way down the road to getting the sound you like,maybe you've turned a corner but you dont have to continue down that road.
I know how you feel about fit and forget but it just doesnae pan out like that....
Gonnae no dae that... Why? Just gonnae no...
getting a dem booked to compare what I have with the all rega setup.
Sorting out the cable as well when I'm there.
should be...interesting :)
brian2957
07-11-2011, 13:30
Hi Gary ,I use and can thoroughly recommend NVA LS3 speaker cable .I have used many speaker cables over the years and this one has been in my system now for 5 years or so . I ve tried a few others during this time but the LS3 has always gone back into my system.
Regards
Brian.
getting a dem booked to compare what I have with the all rega setup.
Sorting out the cable as well when I'm there.
should be...interesting :)
Will be interesting to see what you think of the Brio R. Had mine a couple of weeks, and still early but a little corker, IMO.
PS - you need to update your signature Gary mate! ;)
Will be interesting to see what you think of the Brio R. Had mine a couple of weeks, and still early but a little corker, IMO.
PS - you need to update your signature Gary mate! ;)
Hi Alex,
read nothing but good news about the Brio-R, what did you compare against before you bought it?
The main stuff Im looking for is more bass weight, scale and grunt, but not too edgy at teh top end.
Sound like the Rega?
*siggy changed* :)
Hi Alex,
read nothing but good news about the Brio-R, what did you compare against before you bought it?
The main stuff Im looking for is more bass weight, scale and grunt, but not too edgy at teh top end.
Sound like the Rega?
:)
Yep :lol:
To get anything "tighter," you'll need to spend far more on a heavyweight classic such as a Krell KSA80 and whatever preamp you could put with it - so around £2K minimum then :) and this for used gear.
Alex and I did have a comparison with the Albarry mono's and they're lovely. sadly, the inflated UK price means that the few that are made tend to go abroad I think - what a shame, 'cos they're wonderful.....
Hi Gary,
I took along my own Creek Evo amp, which I had got used to and thought to be very good. I still think it is, but it is more laid-back and smooth than the Brio R which has a real punch to it, whilst being open and just lets the music breath better, if that makes any sense, and is much more dynamic. Since acquiring it, I have directly compared to my Audiolab 8000S - a much brittler sound compared to the Brio, though the Brio manages to maintain the crispness I always liked with the 8000S whilst giving the whole sound a kick up the backside. (There have been times when I have literally jumped when a drum has kicked in, for instance - when that big floor tom kicks in on Tori Amos's Crucify - which just hasn't happened with any amp I've had before, and I'm not playing the music any louder than before...)
Would be unfair to expect the Brio to beat some of the more expensive amps hifi_dave has, but the differences aren't as great as you might expect - I really do think the little Brio is going to become a bit of a hifi legend in years to come... That's not to say that if I had a dedicated listening room and no restrictions on budget I would have a Brio over a Croft Pre-Power combo, or the Albarry's DSJR mentioned - but for real-world systems where space is limited, reliability (hopefully!) and convenience of remote control are required, it comes up trumps.
I certainly recommend you get that demo as soon as - in my personal opinion the T-Amps are good for what they are, but my own Mini-T is comprehensively murdered by the Brio (although in fairness the Brio is 10 times the price!) and it certainly sounds like some of the improvements I've found with the Brio are what you're looking for. :)
wee tee cee
09-11-2011, 14:18
Gary,
Im pretty sure Glasgow audio was using Atlas wires with the Rega kit when I demoed It.I have a couple of lengths your welcome try.If memory serves they were quite bass laden but a bit bright at the top end for my taste.
Thought I'd try the Belkin speaker cable against the Mamba whilst I'm waiting on the Mogami coming..
not good with the rega's, next to no bass, washed out one dimensional sound - very different from the mamba.
Makes me think the Regas can sound quite different with different cable.
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Read up more on the Mogami, loads of good press and if its good enough for a lot of studios its good enough for me :)
Just want to fit n forget and not worry about cable.
The change of speakers sorted that - I guess you have to think of the speakers and cable as one? :scratch:
Don't know if this helps Gaz but my experience has been that if there is a big difference when swapping speaker cable it indicates a fundemental mis-match between amp and speakers. I think the Bantam does not like something about the load the Regas are presenting it with.
Ali Tait
13-11-2011, 10:32
I did try to ask this earlier! :)
jandl100
13-11-2011, 10:51
Hmmm .... Gaz, are you sure you know what you're a doin' of?!?
I've been watching your adventures on this thread and I'm a bit concerned for you.
You buy a pair of speakers which you like but aren't quite right - so you're looking to change everything else to try and make those speakers sing. Errr ... is it just me, or are you not perhaps heading down totally the wrong road? :scratch:
I get the feeling you're getting suck(er)ed in to spending more & more money to make the Rega speakers work for you. :(
You need to be prepared to ditch those speakers, imho.
I used to run Rega Ela on the end of a Naim 62/140 with excellent results.
Maybe a used Naim Nait 5,5i,XS would be a good match.
wee tee cee
13-11-2011, 15:41
Gary,
I've got a Naim 5i 2 sitting in the box,just not got round to selling it yet.Your welcome to take it away and give it a go with any wires I have.Cant help but agree with Jerry maybe the Regas are the problem and not everything else....
If you need a hand gies a bell.
Tony.
hifi_dave
13-11-2011, 15:50
The Rega speakers aren't 'the problem' IMO. They aren't the warmest sounding speakers you can get but they have more than enough body and weight when partnered with any half decent amp. That old Nait 5i, a Brio, Creek etc, etc will do the job nicely and make the RS3's sing.
Gary,
I've got a Naim 5i 2 sitting in the box,just not got round to selling it yet.Your welcome to take it away and give it a go with any wires I have.Cant help but agree with Jerry maybe the Regas are the problem and not everything else....
If you need a hand gies a bell.
Tony.
Cheers Tony,
Trying a different amp will let me get a feel for what the speakers are actually like.
Need to get to the bottom of this, trying a "proper" amp will help get me there.
Cheers for the offer, I'll give you a PM mate.
Cheers,
Gaz
The Black Adder
13-11-2011, 16:47
i heard some harbeth shl5's (originally from DaveR) with to most ends was a very nice amplifier and the speakers didn't sound right but I could recognise that they were not being driven properly at the source so I bought them... A foolish thing to do you may ask but I just knew my source gear sounded much more rounded and wholesome so when I got the Harbs back and plugged in they sounded totally different...
Maybe this was just luck on my part but I'd have to agree with Jerry in some respects here as if you know the sound of your source kit and you like it then ditch the speakers and find something that matches instead of opening a can of worms in finding new amps etc.
Thanks for that...good advice.
As Jerry said and I agree, it's the interaction between my wee amp and the Rega's.
An amps on the cards anyway...
The source (Sb Touch/caiman) is fine..but the amp is a bit "particular" I guess with not a lot of grunt and bass depth.
Was fine with the Acoustic Energy's though...but that was probably bass boom I was hearing?
jandl100
13-11-2011, 19:32
Was fine with the Acoustic Energy's though...but that was probably bass boom I was hearing?
Hmmm ... probably not, Gaz.
You've been in this game long enough to be able to trust your ears. :)
I've seen a lot of reports, and have a fair bit of experience myself which backs them up - the wee T-amps are very speaker dependent. Some they work superbly with - and in those cases you will have to spend SERIOUS money to better the sound. At Scalford this year my little Mini-T TA2020 amp did a stunning job of driving a pair of Tannoy 12 inch Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabs. The sound was pretty much indistinguishable from my lovely Unison Research Unico £2k+ amp. It really was.
But on other speakers they sound drab and wimpy and really can't get it up at all. And it's nothing to do with efficiency, my MBLs are 83dB were fine, and Rob / Hoops-on-Toast reports very good results with his 80dB ATCs although he did feel it was running out of power above moderate SPLs.
So - one approach is to ditch the T-amp and hope that you can get the sound you want with the Rega RS3's with another amp. Another approach is to try and match a speaker with the T-amp, perhaps with a beefed up PSU.
I've not heard the new Brio amp, but from other Rega amps I have heard it will be hard pressed to match a "happy" TA2020 T-amp in terms of midrange transparency, speed and openness - and taut controlled bass.
... well, you know how good the T-amps can sound as the match with your speakers seems to have been a good one!
No disrespect to anyone here is intended, but I'd not be surprised if hifi dealers have a bit of a hard time getting their heads round the idea that a £50 t-amp can sound as good as or better than the multiple-£100/£k wonders they have for sale! ;)
Ali Tait
13-11-2011, 20:17
Aye, have to agree Jerry, my experience with these amps is the same.
Whether this applies to T Class amps in general or just this implementation and chip I’ll leave you to decide but its something to think about.
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=13&blogId=1
Reid Malenfant
13-11-2011, 20:48
Hmmm ... probably not, Gaz.
You've been in this game long enough to be able to trust your ears. :)
I've seen a lot of reports, and have a fair bit of experience myself which backs them up - the wee T-amps are very speaker dependent. Some they work superbly with - and in those cases you will have to spend SERIOUS money to better the sound. At Scalford this year my little Mini-T TA2020 amp did a stunning job of driving a pair of Tannoy 12 inch Monitor Golds in Lancaster cabs. The sound was pretty much indistinguishable from my lovely Unison Research Unico £2k+ amp. It really was.
But on other speakers they sound drab and wimpy and really can't get it up at all. And it's nothing to do with efficiency, my MBLs are 83dB were fine, and Rob / Hoops-on-Toast reports very good results with his 80dB ATCs although he did feel it was running out of power above moderate SPLs.
So - one approach is to ditch the T-amp and hope that you can get the sound you want with the Rega RS3's with another amp. Another approach is to try and match a speaker with the T-amp, perhaps with a beefed up PSU.
I've not heard the new Brio amp, but from other Rega amps I have heard it will be hard pressed to match a "happy" TA2020 T-amp in terms of midrange transparency, speed and openness - and taut controlled bass.
... well, you know how good the T-amps can sound as the match with your speakers seems to have been a good one!
No disrespect to anyone here is intended, but I'd not be surprised if hifi dealers have a bit of a hard time getting their heads round the idea that a £50 t-amp can sound as good as or better than the multiple-£100/£k wonders they have for sale! ;)
You may well have hit the nail on the head here Jerry :) What most people don't realise about the T amps & indeed any other switching amp such as class D is that they rely on a filter to reconstruct the AC waveform at the amps output. The filter is designed for a specific impedance (usually 4 ohms) & if the speaker impedance differs wildly from this there is a distinct possibility of it not being "accurate"..
You mentioned small ATCs, these generally have highish Qts bass drivers in sealed boxes which will result in a low impedance peak at resonance, it would be interesting to know the parameters of the tweeter. Your Tannoys which I heard via a T amp did sound superb at Scalford, it'd be interesting to know the impedance curve of the speaker.
Like you say, it's not the efficiency that is important here, I reckon it's the impedance.
In theory a T amp should sound superb with a Kef 105 III if I'm right as these are deliberately engineered to have as close as possible impedance to 4 ohms over the entire bandwidth.
Still after some Mogami?
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=109005
jandl100
14-11-2011, 07:26
You may well have hit the nail on the head here Jerry :) What most people don't realise about the T amps & indeed any other switching amp such as class D is that they rely on a filter to reconstruct the AC waveform at the amps output. The filter is designed for a specific impedance (usually 4 ohms) & if the speaker impedance differs wildly from this there is a distinct possibility of it not being "accurate"..
You mentioned small ATCs, these generally have highish Qts bass drivers in sealed boxes which will result in a low impedance peak at resonance, it would be interesting to know the parameters of the tweeter. Your Tannoys which I heard via a T amp did sound superb at Scalford, it'd be interesting to know the impedance curve of the speaker.
Like you say, it's not the efficiency that is important here, I reckon it's the impedance.
In theory a T amp should sound superb with a Kef 105 III if I'm right as these are deliberately engineered to have as close as possible impedance to 4 ohms over the entire bandwidth.
Aha - interesting, Mark!
It could well be impedance rather than sensitivity that is important.
My MBLs are a pretty flat and easy impedance, varying gently between 6 and 10 ohms - so not close to 4 ohms - but the little TA2020 T-amp drove them remarkably well, imo, and that of others, provided you didn't try to drive these 83dB/W speakers with too heavy a type of music too loudly. The combo was just fine for 85% of my listening.
Perhaps it's a fairly gently changing impedance load that is important?
I know that several folks have tried the Mini-T TA2020 amp with Living Voice speakers and have reported dire results. I wonder what the impedance curve of LV speakers looks like?
jandl100
14-11-2011, 07:28
Whether this applies to T Class amps in general or just this implementation and chip I’ll leave you to decide but its something to think about.
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=13&blogId=1
Yeah, but he says this at the start of the Sound Quality section .. "As I have pointed out innumerable times, a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own".
The techie results are interesting, but the fact that he blew it up with a turn-on surge may indicate that something was wrong with the unit? And overall there seems little point in me reading the rest, we are listening in different ways!
jandl100
14-11-2011, 07:32
In theory a T amp should sound superb with a Kef 105 III if I'm right as these are deliberately engineered to have as close as possible impedance to 4 ohms over the entire bandwidth.
I've not heard of that combo being tried, but my experience of the KEF 105/3 is that it is a real bar-steward to drive, requiring a seriously hefty amplifier power supply.
I had a dem once of 105/3 with the Denon 6600 mono amps I had at the time. The amps having high power but low current - the chassis were ridiculously light, the PSU/transformer must have been tiny for the wattage being delivered! They didn't even get close to controlling the bass end with the power and authority that the KEFs can deliver. :doh:
hoopsontoast
14-11-2011, 12:23
I was indeed using Jerrys T-Amp with the 80dB SCM10's. Was actually getting better results with it over a Sony TA-F448E 50w mosfet amp.
Although I think its very dependent on the speaker, I am using both amps and a Bantam Gold with the ATCs and some little Keesonic Kolts, and with the Kolts, the Sony seems a lot closer than with the SCM10's.
I am using the T-Amp in near-field in a small room though, there is a limit with an 8w amp and 80dB speakers :)
I have been finding that the mid-bass in the Kolts (Seas 11f-GX) with a very low Qts-0.24, low Mms-5.7g, High BL-7.0 and a large magnet-0.42g brings a lot faster and quicker bass transients than the ATCs. Seems to confirm the theory that low mass, large, powerful magnet and low QTS do indeed provide faster, tighter bass.
And the ATCs are not exactly lacking in that area, they just need a big amp to get decent volume out of them.
Reid Malenfant
14-11-2011, 17:57
I've not heard of that combo being tried, but my experience of the KEF 105/3 is that it is a real bar-steward to drive, requiring a seriously hefty amplifier power supply.
I had a dem once of 105/3 with the Denon 6600 mono amps I had at the time. The amps having high power but low current - the chassis were ridiculously light, the PSU/transformer must have been tiny for the wattage being delivered! They didn't even get close to controlling the bass end with the power and authority that the KEFs can deliver. :doh:
All the T Amps appear to be able to drive 4 ohms & also have the output reconstruction filters designed for 4 ohm speakers. Now I don't know about those Denons you mention Jerry, but by the sound of it they would have had a fair drop in power between say 8 & 4 ohms & you mention low current :eyebrows: Current is exactly what the 105/3 need as they have a so called conjugate load matching circuit which gives them a nearly ruler flat 4 ohm impedance..
No wonder the Denons didn't like them ;)
Another thing I ought to mention is that when these T Amps are feeding 8 ohm speakers there will be a slight but possibly noticeable peak in the amps output in the high treble region, say above 10KHz. This is due to the output reconstruction filter being designed for 4 ohms & having a different response with 8 ohms which will cause this peaking.
Well...
heres something different :)
I'll be hooking up a Naim Nait 5i 2 amp to the Rega's.
I get the feeling I'll hear a lot more of what the Rega's can do..
(i.e. prepare to get my tits blown off by a very muscular amp...)
I'll have a listen tommorow night and report back.
bloody hell...
take back what I said about the Rega's. They sound great.
Just swapped out the speaker cable...connected them up with some Van Damme Blue Studio Grade - changed the character of the speaker completely.
Solid tight bass, very musical....addictive even.
Piano has WEIGHT and sounds more realistic.
Good improvement with Atlas Equator 2 as well, but the VD sounds better to me sounding less smoothed off and a bit more raw.
Not got the Mogami cable yet, tommorow or Wednesday.
Might be even better than Jean Claude's blue stuff.
Not even plugged the Naim in, thats next.
jandl100
15-11-2011, 08:43
Lookslike Gaz is getting good results with cables. :)
I've lost the plot a bit, Gaz :scratch: - what cables have you gone from that didn't suit?
And you're still using the Bantam Gold amp?
It will be mighty interesting to hear what the Naim does/doesn't bring to the party. :cool:
Another thing I ought to mention is that when these T Amps are feeding 8 ohm speakers there will be a slight but possibly noticeable peak in the amps output in the high treble region, say above 10KHz. This is due to the output reconstruction filter being designed for 4 ohms & having a different response with 8 ohms which will cause this peaking.
Hmm. A few folks have reported a bit of a tizzy top end with the TA2020 amps. The TA2022 and 2024 amps I have heard are increasingly smoother - but also appear slower / lower rez / less open to my ears. Maybe I just like a bit of tizz to liven things up! :eyebrows:
hoopsontoast
15-11-2011, 13:38
The TA2020 certainly sounds a little livelier and little more open than the Bantam Gold, and the Bantam has a little added weight in vocals, and the bass. (as a quick summary)
Lookslike Gaz is getting good results with cables. :)
I've lost the plot a bit, Gaz :scratch: - what cables have you gone from that didn't suit?
And you're still using the Bantam Gold amp?
It will be mighty interesting to hear what the Naim does/doesn't bring to the party. :cool:
Hi Jerry,
I was previously using Sterling Black mamba with the Bantam/Rega's which (surprisingly) I found to be a bit bass light and flat sounding.
It really made the most of the AE109's though.
Sold the mamba and bought some Mogami 2972 from a guy over on the 'Wam.
Not received it yet (bloody couriers!) so fitted the £20 Jerry-tastic(tm) Belkin from the bedroom system (now with AE109's and sounding fab:))
This cable wasn't great with the Rega's. More of the same flat washed out sound - but even more so than the Mamba.
Last night fitted some Van Damme Blue Studio stuff I have a chance to try and wow -this is more like it. :)
Changed the character of the speakers - more depth, drama, clarity bass thump, scale, drama...everything.
Nowt wrong with the speakers, just seems you need to cable them properly?
This was with the Bantam Gold.
Plugged the Naim in last night - you know what?
It goes lounder than the bantam..waay lounder and the timing is SLIGHTLY better...but the top end isn't as clear or open?
Theres not much in it honestly, both have advantages - the Naim is a BEAST but would maybe be better for a bigger room as I cant get the volume past 10 o'clock.
With the Van Damme feeding the Rega's the sound from the Bantam is really good. I dont feel I'm missing much to be honest.
Eyes closed music on I think I prefer the Bantam...if I was buying new I would not get the Naim. Not enough in it to justify the cost. Looks great in my rack though! :)
The Naim sounds more dynamic at volume I guess...but the mid/top end transparency that the Bantam has isn't there and this detracts from getting into the music the way I seem to do with the Bantam.
Funny old game this innit? :scratch:
More listening tonight when i get more time and I'll be directly comparing again with the Bantam.
Crackin wee amp this...
jandl100
15-11-2011, 14:21
Plugged the Naim in last night - you know what?
It goes lounder than the bantam..waay lounder and the timing is SLIGHTLY better...but the top end isn't as clear or open?
I'm not at all surprised, Gaz.
Those T-amps are seriously good amps. :) Easy to underrate them because of their cost.
Is the Bantam Gold a T class amplifier?
I thought it was a D Class hybrid :scratch:
I would have thought having the extra Watts the Naim provides is exactly what 89db speakers could do with particularly given the Rega’s could provide a fairly complex impedance curve given they’re a ported design.
Oh well.
Is the Bantam Gold a T class amplifier?
I thought it was a D Class hybrid :scratch:
I would have thought having the extra Watts the Naim provides is exactly what 89db speakers could do with particularly given the Rega’s could provide a fairly complex impedance curve given they’re a ported design.
Oh well.
Not sure what kind of amp the Bantam is honestly...
Dont get me wrong the Naim has bags of grunt with the Rega's, what I'm saying is that with the proper cabling (and Im sure its an impedance/amp/cable match and not a "tone control") the Bantam goes a long way too.
Maybe not quite as much as the Nait, but its enough and it has a better top end to my ears.
My problem was down to cabling I guess.
I had thought I needed a "proper" amp to drive the Rega's but the Bantam does well.
Happy camper here now. :)
Well you’re the one listening to it so I’m just guessing.
I find it a bit hard to accept that speaker cables can make that much difference but hey………..
Moar Watts, well that can make a big difference and having plenty of headroom always seems a good idea.
I tried a T Class in my system, not particularly difficult to drive (90db+ speakers) and the T class amp I tried (it’s in the T Class thread somewhere) just didn’t hack it; just not enough grunt for those enthusiast bass passages ;) and while channel separation sounded great and distortion was minimal within the amps capability it went into clipping mode rather easily and I don’t listen at silly decibels.
I understand that the Bantams are rather different in their clipping characteristics but 25Watts is still not an awful lot of power :scratch:
Well you’re the one listening to it so I’m just guessing.
I find it a bit hard to accept that speaker cables can make that much difference but hey………..
Moar Watts, well that can make a big difference and having plenty of headroom always seems a good idea.
I tried a T Class in my system, not particularly difficult to drive (90db+ speakers) and the T class amp I tried (it’s in the T Class thread somewhere) just didn’t hack it; just not enough grunt for those enthusiast bass passages ;) and while channel separation sounded great and distortion was minimal within the amps capability it went into clipping mode rather easily and I don’t listen at silly decibels.
I understand that the Bantams are rather different in their clipping characteristics but 25Watts is still not an awful lot of power :scratch:
I hear what your sayin' mate, but at sensible(ish) volume levels there's not a lot in it between the two amps.
More a case of preference than absolute better I think.
just going by my ears! :scratch: :)
jandl100
15-11-2011, 15:59
Moar watts seems like a good idea, but all you really need is sufficient watts, and that's down to a whole load of factors - speaker sensitivity, preferred listening level, musical taste, room size, personal preference in sound quality etcetera! :)
wee tee cee
15-11-2011, 23:49
Gary,
You came to exactly the same conclusions as myself.The bantum is pretty hard to beat...ye the Naim does some things better power wise but the Bantum is far more enjoyable to listen to.I find the sound staging far more 3D.Give the Naim a couple of days left on and try again....bet it still wont come close.
If your happy just now what about trying a pair of the mono blocks,they just build on what you have.Bring the Regas and gold across and have a listen albeit in my room.If you fancy you can have a listen to the tellurium blue and black but its fraught with danger...you have been warned.
Regards Tony.
Hi Tony,
Had another close listen with the Naim and its the same conclusion, I prefer the final result of what the Bantam does.
Soundstage is more open and defined, more back to front stuff going on too.
The Naim perhaps sounds a tad more solid at the low end but honestly there's not so much in it that you would care.
Ideally I would like a wee bit more heft in the bass but I can live with it especially as there's just something that sounds "right" with the Bantam that isn't there with the Naim.
Acid test for me is that my attention drifts when listening through the Naim, it doesn't with the Bantam.Its just more involving.
Have to say I didn't expect to prefer a T-Amp over an £800 Naim...
So the Bantam does stuff I like, would be ideal with a little more grunt and power behind them though...thinking monoblocks....hmnn.
update.
FINALLY got the Mogami 2972 cable in today from a 'Wammer... :)
Quad cable 4x 2mm doubled up for single wire use, so 4mm per side.
Dealer pre-terminated/heatshrinked with quality Z-Plugs.
2 metre lengths which is perfect for my setup.
Used in a lot of (most?) Recording Studios apparently.
Not bad for £45 :)
The guy who sold me the RS3's went out of his way to strongly advise me to get this stuff if I found the Rega's a bit lightweight in my system.
He replaced some pretty expensive Chord cable with the Mogami, which (in his words) made the speakers sound twice as good.
He wasn't wrong. :)
These speakers need this cable.
The weight I was missing at the low end is there, in fact a bit TOO much.
I ended up moving the speakers another 6" or so from the back wall and spacing them out by a couple of feet more.
Before if the speakers were that far out and apart the soundstage would just collapse, now its a solid, very open natural sound.
Big dynamic swings too, drum crashes are felt rather than just heard...
Perfect.
Plugged the Naim back in with the Mogami and it sounded better too - but the bantam still pipped it.
Just more fun to listen to and with the Mogami in place theres bass weight aplenty.
Result, I got there in the end.
Seriously tempted to go for the monoblocks now, need to have a chat with Santa (the bank manageress...) :)
wee tee cee
16-11-2011, 17:08
What about just getting another gold....The Mogami is doubled up,just use one amp to drive each side...Mark Grant does some great bi-amp cables.Your half way there just now.You dont need the monos.Glad you're not getting caught in the maelstrom.
Tony.
Tony,
you need to try some of this cable...seriously.
Thinking to use the Caiman as a Pre fed by two mono's.....
one each side.
more power I think and only one volume control to worry about :)
wee tee cee
16-11-2011, 18:58
Why not use the bantum golds/monos wide open and utilise your touch as a volume control...I found using the caiman as a pre/volume control robbed the system of a degree of dynamisism (if that's a word...it had lost its sparkle).The best pre-amp you can get is the one that's not there.
Tony.
I hear what your sayin' and your right, but I've locked my Touch at 100% Volume as the Touch doesn't output bit perfect via its spdif if the digital volume is used (i.e less than 100%)
To simplify, it drops bits and the sound is resampled and I'd prefer to output what goes in rather than a cut down version.
Can you actually hear the degredation of using the digital volume control?
Thats a different story ;)
Good shout though.
Not compared the fixed vs variable Caiman output. think a few guys use their's as a preamp?
Another option is the fixed Caiman output fed into a Lightspeed Attenuator to control volume...any thoughts on that one?
Anyone?
p.s the Naim is boxed up mate, lemme know when it suits to bring it over.
Friday onwards good for me.
Hi Gary!
What do you think of the Van Damme Blue compared to the Mogami? What was the thickness of the Van Damme?
Also, where did you get the Mogami, is very hard to find in Europe?
Sorry, just noticed I forgot I asked the same question somewhere and you already answered.
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