View Full Version : What's comparable to LS3/5a?
jazzpiano
01-11-2011, 16:30
Hello All,
Suppose you love the sound of LS3/5as, but missed the boat on getting a pair while they were still reasonable or, like me, sold your pair when they were going for $500. I've heard lots of folks talking about speakers they thought superceded the LS3/5as (Audio Physic Step, Harbeths, etc.) but what if you wanted a reasonably-priced speaker that excelled at what the
LS3/5as excelled at? Any possibilities in your eyes?
Best,
Barry :cool:
What about those small PMCs l cannot remember the model number- they are around £500ish new l believe, hope this helps:)
You can still by the LS3/5a new for £1000
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?product=stirling+broadcast+ls3%2F5a+v2+monitor+lo udspeaker
http://www.stirlingbroadcast.net/
The Harbeth P3ESR is rather more
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=p3esr&model=P3ESR
What price are Spendor in USA?
http://www.spendoraudio.com/
But are you looking for something half that price?
AVI Neutron 5 for £450 mail order to USA
http://www.avihifi.co.uk/neutron.html
But its not a BBC "thin wall" speaker.
You would get a lot more for your money if you could live with the look and sound of an Active Studio Monitor
Amongst the best looking
http://www.mackie.com/products/mrmk2series/splash/
£260 a pair in UK.
I've heard the 8" version - extremely good - that's LS5/9 size.
The Harbeth P3ESR is so far ahead of the 3/5A in every respect (they handle more power, go much louder without distorting, have a much nicer midrange and the treble is in a totally different league - active speakers be damned!) they can barely be compared now and many LS3/5A's themselves will be way outside their spec now in any case. Later KEF B110's and B200's went right off the boil and the infamous "Bextrene Quack" got worse and worse, annihilating Linn's speakers too - as if they needed much help, but that's another story :lol:
I believe Spendor had a go or two at doing a sort-of version of the 3/5A, but I never heard good reports of them and we never bothered when we sold the S and SE series. Their SA1 (series 2) is available from many Sevenoaks stores I believe, so you might be able to get a listen to these, which are far better (I haven't compared them to the Harbeths though)
hoopsontoast
02-11-2011, 10:18
ATC SCM7
Harbeth P3ESR
Spendor S3/5R
Spendor SA1
Stirling Broadcast V2
Keesonic Kolt
Kef Q100
Kef R100
southall-1998
03-11-2011, 20:04
Have the Spendor S3/5R ever been compared to the 15 ohm LS3/5a?
Regards.
I still can't work out what the current fascination is with the LS3/5a and even less so why they appear to attract silly money on the secondhand market :scratch:
As memory serves me, they were I believe designed for monitoring in mobile broadcasting studios where space is at a premium, so unless you intend to listen to your system in a broom cupboard or wardrobe there is not much chance of them sounding sweet in an average 10' by 14' lounge.
As Dave R also rightly says, they are getting to the point now where the Bextrene has seen better days and will be performing way off their original specs.
And they were designed principally for monitoring speech.
The extreme HF was topped up to emphasise distortion and tape hiss as well.
A novelty in their day...
The Harbeth Monitor 20 was designed as a "drop in" replacement and many were sold to the BBC in addition to the original P3. The BBC buy a lot of Dynaudio BM5A actives now for these duties.
hifi_dave
04-11-2011, 10:15
The Beeb still use many Monitor 20, P3ESR and Monitor 30. All three are drop-in replacements for original BBC designs. They have just bought in Monitor 30's for surround sound monitoring duties.
Do you know, either Dave, how many thin wall trad monitors are still in use by the BBC, what proportion of their purchases are modern Harbeths (or similar), and what proportion off the production line active monitors?
hifi_dave
04-11-2011, 17:14
No idea on the quantity but they use all manner of speakers including active ATC and many Harbeths, old and new.
It was something like these...
http://www.guildfordaudio.co.uk/store/used.php?category=Standmount%20Speakers§ion=Categories&cattitle=Used%20Items&page=used
(They may have been Stirlings)
That put the idea of the Harbeth P3ESR into my head. I have to say that IME the baby Harbs. are better in every way.
Haselsh1
05-11-2011, 17:34
I remember back in 1993/1997 owning a pair of nicely rosewood veneered Rogers LS3/5a's. I remember the truly dreadful fizzy/tizzy treble and the awfully false low frequencies. The midrange was truly beautiful though especially on acoustic guitar and saxophone, but that treble... ouch...!!!
At the moment I am using Dali Ikon 1's but as soon as I have the funds I am hoping to replace these with Audio Note AZ-2's. I love their midrange also and they so suit my taste in chillout music.
southall-1998
05-11-2011, 18:07
People say the highs and lows from the LS3/5a are very bad. But the midrange is very hard to beat.
Regards.
You obviously haven't heard the current harbeths Shane. A TOTALLY different ball-game i PROMISE you and well up to active models in accuracy and subtlety, so good is that new-fangled cone material they use :)
I don't mind shilling for Harbeth, 'cos they deserve it, the hours of listening, blood, sweat and tears that went into producing them. THAT's one main reason why owners keep them for decades, after often many "HiFi alternatives have passed through their hands on the journey :)
Do you know, either Dave, how many thin wall trad monitors are still in use by the BBC, what proportion of their purchases are modern Harbeths (or similar), and what proportion off the production line active monitors?
Don't know Brian, but I suspect the Dynaudio actives have the same duties as the BC1 "noise-boxes" had back in the day.. BC1's went out of service in the late 80's I understand... It would seem that the BBC's new studios sound rather different to those of old - good or bad I'm not qualified to say..
southall-1998
05-11-2011, 20:16
You obviously haven't heard the current harbeths Shane. A TOTALLY different ball-game i PROMISE you and well up to active models in accuracy and subtlety, so good is that new-fangled cone material they use :)
I don't mind shilling for Harbeth, 'cos they deserve it, the hours of listening, blood, sweat and tears that went into producing them. THAT's one main reason why owners keep them for decades, after often many "HiFi alternatives have passed through their hands on the journey :)
Those little Harbeths may be good. But I'm guessing they can never beat the LS3/5a's midrange :ner:
hifi_dave
05-11-2011, 20:43
They do - hands down.:trust:
southall-1998
05-11-2011, 20:58
One day I'll have to hear some Harbeths.
Those little Harbeths may be good. But I'm guessing they can never beat the LS3/5a's midrange :ner:
Oh Shane, I was selling LS3/5A's LONG before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye :D
Things moved on a very long time ago, and honestly, in some markets, a piece of poo wrapped in foil with a BBC monika on it would sell for bucket-loads - the LS5/12a is a typical example :eyebrows:
The LS3/5A has a nice midrange, but Harbeth bettered that twenty years ago with the original P3. The current model is far better again, despite seeming to be too expensive for the far-eastern made brigade, using UK made active amp packs.
southall-1998
05-11-2011, 21:12
Oh Shane, I was selling LS3/5A's LONG before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye :D
Things moved on a very long time ago, and honestly, in some markets, a piece of poo wrapped in foil with a BBC monika on it would sell for bucket-loads - the LS5/12a is a typical example :eyebrows:
The LS3/5A has a nice midrange, but Harbeth bettered that twenty years ago with the original P3. The current model is far better again, despite seeming to be too expensive for the far-eastern made brigade, using UK made active amp packs.
Good God! I don't even want to know your age;)
There are people that still say the LS3/5a's midrange is still one of the best in the world. And a loudspeaker costing 5k will not beat it.
I've never heard an LS3/5a, so I don't know.
Anyway I better shut up now :lol:
No, just take my opinion with a healthy dose of salt - everybody else does :)
hifi_dave
05-11-2011, 21:33
No, just take my opinion with a healthy dose of salt - everybody else does :)
Salt - not good for the blood pressure..:rolleyes:
Oh Shane, I was selling LS3/5A's LONG before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye :D
Things moved on a very long time ago, and honestly, in some markets, a piece of poo wrapped in foil with a BBC monika on it would sell for bucket-loads - the LS5/12a is a typical example :eyebrows:
The LS3/5A has a nice midrange, but Harbeth bettered that twenty years ago with the original P3. The current model is far better again, despite seeming to be too expensive for the far-eastern made brigade, using UK made active amp packs.
This (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?597-BBC-LS5-12a) makes interesting reading, especially Dudley Harwood's self imposed 'handicap'! :scratch:
I don't get the fascination with little piss ant speakers ( unless you are very strapped for space).
A pair of floor standers will usually take up no more space and have a far wider bandwidth and be more dynamically able IMO.
One day I'll have to hear some Harbeths.
If you ever find yourself travelling to Nottingham.........
Or Saffron Walden (shill shill shill :D)
Oh FFS, the Spendor SA1 should be widely available to hear from a Sevenoaks/Audio T (whatever, they're all the bloody same these days I believe) near you and should give you an excellent idea where modern "piss-ant" squeakers are these days (wonderful, I love it :lol:)
Shane, since you're fast becoming Jerry's box-swapping apprentice :lol: and if you'd like to try a classy little box (and influenced by Darren's gear), try to get hold of some Sonus Faber Concertino or better, Concerto speakers on their adjustable stands. Set the height so that the bass unit is at ear level (tweeter set slightly above) and keep 'em a foot or so from a back wall. You can look at the beautifully crafted boxes while grinning smugly at all those 3/5A luvverz who need a reality check IMO - the Concerto's were bloody good speakers and very good at letting the music through - doesn't matter which model, although they became easier to drive and integrate into the room as time went on, due to better drivers needing simpler, more phase-coherent crossovers..
This (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?597-BBC-LS5-12a) makes interesting reading, especially Dudley Harwood's self imposed 'handicap'! :scratch:
We at KJ were one of the very first dealers to sell Harbeth back in 1977 and all I can say is that the HL1 and especially the more consistent HL2 and 3 (not so different from each other I remember) became extremely popular and showed how far behind the BC1 was becoming on mixed musical content, especially "AOR" style of powerful rock music, which the HL1 handled very well in comparison. Maybe the tonal balance "irregularities" had something to do with this, I don't know, but an early HL1 would still hit the spot for many of us I think. Again, the current SHL5, although more refined, still has that certain "magic" to it and once infected with this, it's very difficult to take many other products seriously. And yet, some rega RS3's in direct comparison sound utterly charming with the basic ingredients so "right," despite a not unpleasant sparkle in the treble regions.
southall-1998
06-11-2011, 16:15
Or Saffron Walden (shill shill shill :D)
Oh FFS, the Spendor SA1 should be widely available to hear from a Sevenoaks/Audio T (whatever, they're all the bloody same these days I believe) near you and should give you an excellent idea where modern "piss-ant" squeakers are these days (wonderful, I love it :lol:)
Shane, since you're fast becoming Jerry's box-swapping apprentice :lol: and if you'd like to try a classy little box (and influenced by Darren's gear), try to get hold of some Sonus Faber Concertino or better, Concerto speakers on their adjustable stands. Set the height so that the bass unit is at ear level (tweeter set slightly above) and keep 'em a foot or so from a back wall. You can look at the beautifully crafted boxes while grinning smugly at all those 3/5A luvverz who need a reality check IMO - the Concerto's were bloody good speakers and very good at letting the music through - doesn't matter which model, although they became easier to drive and integrate into the room as time went on, due to better drivers needing simpler, more phase-coherent crossovers..
How dare you:lol:
Good God! I don't even want to know your age;)
There are people that still say the LS3/5a's midrange is still one of the best in the world. And a loudspeaker costing 5k will not beat it.
I've never heard an LS3/5a, so I don't know.
Anyway I better shut up now :lol:
Shane, by your own admission you have never heard a Harbeth now you say you have never heard the LS3/5A's either. Yet you entered a debate suggesting one was better than the other.:lolsign:
I have heard and owned a number of Rogers speakers and for my money if the OP likes the tone of the LS3's (which is good but not brilliant) and wants something similar at a more realistic price then IMHO the Rogers JR150 beats the original LS3 hand down. I've owned and got rid of countless dozens of speakers over the years but will always keep my 150's as a backup.
spendorman
06-11-2011, 21:16
Tangent RS2, same tweeter, a good Bextrene cone bass/ mid unit and a cabinet a bit bigger. I have both LS3/5a (Chartwell 15 Ohm) and RS2's
Rare Bird
06-11-2011, 21:29
'JR149' are great speakers i much prefered them to my old Audiomaster 'LS3/5a's
spendorman
06-11-2011, 21:38
'JR149' are great speakers i much prefered them to my old Audiomaster 'LS3/5a's
Agreed, unfortunately, they are also going up in cost. I have a couple of pairs. One cabinet is missing its wooden top plate, must made a new one!
To my ears, bass is better than LS3/5a, mid not quite as detailed.
I compared the 149 with the Audiomasters on many occasions and found the former to be even more "squeaky..." mainly because the b110 wasn't calibrated so was allowed it's wayward batch quality..
The thing is, LS3/5A's were a nightmare to manufacture, not profitable once all the faff in calibrating them was taken into the equation - I remember the much respected Robin Marshall spending hours pouring over speaker plots and working out which caps to change to bring the wayward drivers into the spec. Every capacitor was measured, labelled and sorted too (Harbeth "used" to do this with the HL5's I had, I don't know if they still need to though).
It's highly likely that modern 3/5A descendants would be far easier to make consistent I think, due to better manufacturing techniques...
By the way, the XLR equipped samples that went to the BBC HAD to be exactly centre-line spec and batches that Audiomaster sent went through further testing and calibration. In the 3/5A roundup, the Audiomasters did really well I remember and rather better than some others I think.. Mind you, a certain K Kessler does seem to play rather well to his particular audience/meal ticket......
julesd68
07-11-2011, 10:32
Shane, since you're fast becoming Jerry's box-swapping apprentice :lol:
That's a great idea for a TV show!
Six ruthless junior box swappers compete to gain grace and favour from the master himself.
And the prize - a year's box swapping with Jerry!
:clap:
That's a great idea for a TV show!
Six ruthless junior box swappers compete to gain grace and favour from the master himself.
And the prize - a year's box swapping with Jerry!
:clap:
:lolsign:
maxrob200
08-11-2011, 02:25
Heard LS3/5A twenty years ago with Linn LP12/ Ittok/Koetsu Red Signature, Stax CAX pre and DA-100M Class A monoblocks and the mid range was IMHO absolutely stunning. But that was 20 years ago
I have LS3/5a speakers, I used to use them in my office system when working late in the evening. They sound pretty good, but I've never been bowled over by them. For speech they are fine, but for the larger dynamic and frequency range of the sort of music I enjoy most they are a bit limited. I also have Harbeth P3ES, which are 2 generations old, I prefer these on music. FWIW.
hifi_dave
08-11-2011, 11:50
Yes, the Harbeth P3ES is a step up on the LS3/5A, especially on music where it sounds beefier and more realistic. The newer P3ESR is a further improvement.
The ESR is a VERY different and FAR superior animal to all that went before - louder, deeper, clearer and sweeter too. Not knocking the previous P3ES at all, but the Radial cone and other refinements have lifted way beyond the maximum capabilities of the 3/5A and it's inferior copies - IMO...
Martyn Miles
01-10-2014, 20:31
Oh, should I add to this ( ever ) ongoing debate ?
We have opinions/experiences from those who have experienced LS3/5as, Harbeths, etc. ( No names mentioned...)
The same from those who have heard neither. ( Again, no names mentioned...)
I have owned various ( and built ) LS3/5as, taken in, I suspect, by one K. Kessler. Yes, they are good, but the original Harbeth HL-P3s I owned were superior to my ears.
The P3ESRs are 'something else.' They are instantly superior to the LS3/5a. I have run them together on my own system.
I sold the LS3/5as I built ( with all the correct components ) and the buyer said they were the best he had ever heard .
If I had to, I could live with '3/5as, but I choose to live with 'ESRs...
I used to have some Ls3/5a's on my office pc system,then i got a pair of JPW ML310's for £2.20 on ebay.They were so much more enjoyable so i gave the LS3/5a's to a chum of mine who seems to like them,similar mid range,but i couldn't live with the lack of bass..To quantify my findings with LS3/5a's i must add that i made mine from a Wilmslow Audio kit using mdf and not birch ply,but apart from that they were an accurate clone,but they did need a sub to work.
southall-1998
02-10-2014, 02:36
I used to have some Ls3/5a's on my office pc system,then i got a pair of JPW ML310's for £2.20 on ebay.They were so much more enjoyable so i gave the LS3/5a's to a chum of mine who seems to like them,similar mid range,but i couldn't live with the lack of bass..
:D
S.
Gordon Steadman
02-10-2014, 06:27
I had Rogers LS35As at one time. I then found a pair of KEF101s at a boot sale for £10 with a non working B110. Soldered the lead back on and tried them side by side. Sold the Rogers.
The Rogers were great but the KEFs played music and bopped rather more. I still have them in one of the bedroom systems. It seems daft that people are prepared to pay more for a pair of LS35As than some Quads 57s - ignoring the size differential of course.
Just a suggestion, but one's soul/grandmother/car should be sold to buy some P3ESRs. I've owned lots of speakers, including the Rogers, and the Harbs are worth every penny. The overall system cost can be offset by using comparatively low priced amplification. If you must ;-).
One of the best lower cost small speakers I'd recommend are the little Quad 11L. Not perfect but for the money on the s/h market you can't really go wrong. At the cheap as chips end virtually any small older Castle speaker punches well.
I too don't really get the price of the original LS3/5a in terms of sonics per pound, but collectability and is what it is, I do understand that.
Martyn Miles
05-10-2014, 18:42
Now we have the new ( yes, new ) Falcon Acoustics LS3/5as at £1450, pretty close to the price of Harbeth's P3ESR.
No doubt some will prefer the new '3/5a, others the 'ESR.
I am not selling my little Harbeths, and I can imagine owners of the new LS3/5a will be keeping theirs. Nearly £1500 is a lot of money...
Just a suggestion, but one's soul/grandmother/car should be sold to buy some P3ESRs. I've owned lots of speakers, including the Rogers, and the Harbs are worth every penny. The overall system cost can be offset by using comparatively low priced amplification. If you must ;-).
One of the best lower cost small speakers I'd recommend are the little Quad 11L. Not perfect but for the money on the s/h market you can't really go wrong. At the cheap as chips end virtually any small older Castle speaker punches well.
I too don't really get the price of the original LS3/5a in terms of sonics per pound, but collectability and is what it is, I do understand that.
As an SHL5+ owner (every minute is a joy), looking to get some P3ESR for office with a streamer/preamp and amplifier on a budget, as it is an office after all. Any suggestions?
Hi Barry,
I have heard the LS3/5A many times and although it is good at what it does for a small speaker it does have some limitations I certainly could not live with. However I have heard a speaker that is not a great deal larger than the LS3/5a but sounds better in almost every way.
KEF LS50
You need to try these.
Martyn Miles
06-10-2014, 16:07
Hi Barry,
I have heard the LS3/5A many times and although it is good at what it does for a small speaker it does have some limitations I certainly could not live with. However I have heard a speaker that is not a great deal larger than the LS3/5a but sounds better in almost every way.
KEF LS50
You need to try these.
Good, but they look 'bling' to me.
KEF LS50
+1
when in synergy with the rest they really sing... and bass is unbelievable for the size.. the other day, a guy who came to buy some kit from me asked where the subwoofer was... :eek:
and yes, they do look bling but the sound is really very refined IMHO
Good, but they look 'bling' to me.
I agree they do look a bit bling and i must say I do not like their appearance but they sound superb!
What about those Klaft BC30 that were a rave at Whittlebury 2014- cheap as chips too.....:)
jandl100
08-10-2014, 13:12
What about those Klaft BC30 that were a rave at Whittlebury 2014- cheap as chips too.....:)
Well, I was about to post that! - except that I would have got the name right. :lol:
http://www.kralkaudio.com/BC-30.html
They've even quoted one of my forum comments on their website! :D
They sounded just like LS3/5a to me (I have owned a pair) except with decent bass and dynamics.
£350. Stupidly good vfm, imho. :thumbsup:
Martyn Miles
08-10-2014, 14:39
Well, I was about to post that! - except that I would have got the name right. :lol:
http://www.kralkaudio.com/BC-30.html
They've even quoted one of my forum comments on their website! :D
They sounded just like LS3/5a to me (I have owned a pair) except with decent bass and dynamics.
£350. Stupidly good vfm, imho. :thumbsup:
Looks like an interesting speaker...
Well, I was about to post that! - except that I would have got the name right. :lol:
http://www.kralkaudio.com/BC-30.html
They've even quoted one of my forum comments on their website! :D
They sounded just like LS3/5a to me (I have owned a pair) except with decent bass and dynamics.
£350. Stupidly good vfm, imho. :thumbsup:
That is we need more Grammer Nazis on the forum:ner: Where is my PSU?:ner::)
jandl100
08-10-2014, 14:57
That is we need more Grammer Nazis on the forum:ner: Where is my PSU?:ner::)
I think Klaft and Kralk is a bit more than a grammar snafu ;) - someone interested in a super-LS3/5a on the cheap Googles "Klaft" .... :scratch: :lol:
PSU? ... What PSU? :whistle:
... all boxed up and ready to be posted tomorrow, with BIG thanks, Andy! :)
Martyn Miles
09-10-2014, 18:33
I think Klaft and Kralk is a bit more than a grammar snafu ;) - someone interested in a super-LS3/5a on the cheap Googles "Klaft" .... :scratch: :lol:
PSU? ... What PSU? :whistle:
... all boxed up and ready to be posted tomorrow, with BIG thanks, Andy! :)
How about a Kraft speaker? OK, it's associated with cheese and it's a copyrighted name but a nicely crafted ( krafted...) speaker is what we are all looking for...
I think Klaft and Kralk is a bit more than a grammar snafu ;) - someone interested in a super-LS3/5a on the cheap Googles "Klaft" .... :scratch: :lol:
PSU? ... What PSU? :whistle:
... all boxed up and ready to be posted tomorrow, with BIG thanks, Andy! :)
Glad to be of service Jerry.:)
spendorman
09-10-2014, 19:02
Hello All,
Suppose you love the sound of LS3/5as, but missed the boat on getting a pair while they were still reasonable or, like me, sold your pair when they were going for $500. I've heard lots of folks talking about speakers they thought superceded the LS3/5as (Audio Physic Step, Harbeths, etc.) but what if you wanted a reasonably-priced speaker that excelled at what the
LS3/5as excelled at? Any possibilities in your eyes?
Best,
Barry :cool:
How about KEF Corelli, Tangent RS2? I have both of these and 15 Ohm Chartwell LS3/5A, and reckon that there is a similarity in sound. Not owned the Tangent TM3, but they might sound similar. All the speakers use the KEF T27 tweeter and Bextrene bass units.
I've a pair of JR 149s and was thinking of changing them for a pair of Harbeth's (P3 ESR) or ATC SMC11s or even those BC-30s which look excellent, can anyone tell me if the JR 149s sound similar to the Harbeths and or the other speakers?
I'm looking for something a bit more musical and something that is good for late night listening at low volume levels which is why I'm drawn to the Harbeths.
My amp is an XTZ Class A100D3
Thanks
Tony
BTW, I was thinking along the lines of a sub with the JR 149s as the amp has sub outs but I'm not sure I want to go down that road as i would much rather spend the money on speakers.
southall-1998
09-10-2014, 22:24
I've a pair of JR 149s and was thinking of changing them for a pair of Harbeth's (P3 ESR) or ATC SMC11s or even those BC-30s which look excellent, can anyone tell me if the JR 149s sound similar to the Harbeths and or the other speakers?
I'm looking for something a bit more musical and something that is good for late night listening at low volume levels which is why I'm drawn to the Harbeths.
My amp is an XTZ Class A100D3
Thanks
Tony
BTW, I was thinking along the lines of a sub with the JR 149s as the amp has sub outs but I'm not sure I want to go down that road as i would much rather spend the money on speakers.
Best keep away from ATC then!
S.
Best keep away from ATC then!
S.
Why Shane, not musical or suitable for low volume listening or both?
Thanks
Tony
jandl100
10-10-2014, 07:56
I've a pair of JR 149s and was thinking of changing them for a pair of Harbeth's (P3 ESR) or ATC SMC11s or even those BC-30s which look excellent, can anyone tell me if the JR 149s sound similar to the Harbeths and or the other speakers?
I'm looking for something a bit more musical and something that is good for late night listening at low volume levels which is why I'm drawn to the Harbeths.
My amp is an XTZ Class A100D3
Thanks
Tony
BTW, I was thinking along the lines of a sub with the JR 149s as the amp has sub outs but I'm not sure I want to go down that road as i would much rather spend the money on speakers.
I've owned and enjoyed JR149 and also the bigger JR150.
Both excellent speakers.
I've not compared them directly, so a pinch of salt required on the following, but my view is that the Kralk BC30 is the better speaker, with more rez and transparency, and a more 'open', faster and more dynamic sound. Room placement is a big factor in bass, but I suspect the BC30 bass won't really need a sub for most folks if you are happy with the sound of a smallish speaker and can get them quite near the rear wall. I was impressed with what I heard at the National Show recently.
I'd love to dem a pair of those BC30 at home!
-- nice amp you have there, btw! Should be good for whatever speakers you choose.
hifi_dave
10-10-2014, 08:54
Harbeth speakers are an easy load and work well at low volume levels where the majority of speakers don't. They also do loud when required.
Harbeth speakers are an easy load and work well at low volume levels where the majority of speakers don't. They also do loud when required.
Thanks Dave, would you say that the JR149s sound 'similar' to the Harbeth P3 ERS's?
Tony
I've owned and enjoyed JR149 and also the bigger JR150.
Both excellent speakers.
I've not compared them directly, so a pinch of salt required on the following, but my view is that the Kralk BC30 is the better speaker, with more rez and transparency, and a more 'open', faster and more dynamic sound. Room placement is a big factor in bass, but I suspect the BC30 bass won't really need a sub for most folks if you are happy with the sound of a smallish speaker and can get them quite near the rear wall. I was impressed with what I heard at the National Show recently.
I'd love to dem a pair of those BC30 at home!
-- nice amp you have there, btw! Should be good for whatever speakers you choose.
Thanks Jerry, the JR149s are currently mounted on the wall, quite high up, with the round JR stands so no problem getting speakers close to the wall although the wall (s) in question is either side of a bay window which obviously doesn't help:doh:
What I don't want to do though is to change the JR149s to a speaker that sounds exactly the same and by that I mean the BBC monitor thing, does all speakers like the JR 149s and Rogers LS, Harbeth HL or whatever all sound essentially the same as each other or are there differences to them that makes them sound different from each other, cause if they all do sound alike then what is the point in changing from one speaker manufacturer to another is probably what I'm getting at?
Yep the amp is a cracker, picked it up for a really good price but, unfortuantely it doesn't seem to gel with my phono amp (Firebottle MK 1 MM) so that's off being upgraded to the plus version which should hopefully make them work with each other better.
One thing though with the XTZ amp volume cranked up the JR 149s sound as good as I've ever heard them.
Regards
Tony
hifi_dave
10-10-2014, 10:46
Thanks Dave, would you say that the JR149s sound 'similar' to the Harbeth P3 ERS's?
Tony
Not really. They do the wonderful, solid 'BBC' midband but cleaner and more accurate. Bass is deeper, cleaner and they are overall more refined. They also provide higher volume levels without distress.
jandl100
10-10-2014, 12:40
What I don't want to do though is to change the JR149s to a speaker that sounds exactly the same and by that I mean the BBC monitor thing, does all speakers like the JR 149s and Rogers LS, Harbeth HL or whatever all sound essentially the same as each other or are there differences to them that makes them sound different from each other, cause if they all do sound alike then what is the point in changing from one speaker manufacturer to another is probably what I'm getting at?
I know what you mean about the "BBC sound". There is a similarity of sonic presentation, they do some things extraordinarily well - like timbre, tonal neutrality. To my ears, though, they also do some things very badly - which rules them out, as far as I am concerned, as a long term listening proposition. They fail to do the small scale dynamic tracking thing - there's a blandness to the presentation which turns music into sonic soup, the equivalent of watching paint dry, which drives me crazy after a while. Dave / dsjr has said that Harbeth, for one, are hauling themselves out of this particular trap, but I have to say that I haven't yet heard evidence of this, and I have heard quite a few Harbies over recent years.
From my fairly brief listen to those Kralk BC30, they don't do this - there was an immediate "wow" factor walking into their dem room at Whittlebury - after way too many overpriced, underperforming systems here was something that sounded interesting and involving!
All the above just my own opinion, doubtless others hear it differently and/or have different audio priorities to me. :)
The JR149 and 150 (especially the 150 as I recall) are excellent and the styling didn't do them any harm either;)
If I could butt in regarding the Harbeth P3 - ALL versions of them...
I've directly compared (at the Harbeth factory) their incarnation of the 11 Ohm LS3/5A and the original P3, which is comfortably bettered in loudness and 'scale' by the current ESR's. The Harbeth 3/5A, admittedly driven by a Quad 34/306 and a Marantz budget CD source, sounded vague and slightly 'tizzy' (a known characteristic of the T27 tweeter, deliberately made worse by the HF2000 'grille' fitted on top of it). In comparison, the P3 generated a 'proper' wide and deep soundstage with superb focus - people running around in one recording were easy to 'place' whereas the 3/5A made it vague. Lots of this I feel, is due to very careful blending at the crossover point, which the ESR model takes much further IMO.
Now, how does this equate to the JR149? It's my view that the 149, free of the fetters of the BBC requirements and having a cylindrical box with VERY sturdy end caps, lacks the mid-bass 'bump' of the 3/5A (and the lovely 'warmth of tone' of the P3 series), but should make up for this with a very seamless kind of sound from bass to treble, ESPECIALLY with modern sources, amps and cabling. I believe at least one of 'us' here uses 149's and worrasf used them with a restored Quad 303 IIRC, which should have been a great match for them (a good working 303 is still a capable and sweet toned little amp and well worth its status as a well loved vintage amp).
Stratmangler
10-10-2014, 15:43
That is we need more Grammer Nazis on the forum:ner: Where is my PSU?:ner::)
Grammar Nazis my arse!
Try doing a Google search on klaft :)
I know what you mean about the "BBC sound". There is a similarity of sonic presentation, they do some things extraordinarily well - like timbre, tonal neutrality. To my ears, though, they also do some things very badly - which rules them out, as far as I am concerned, as a long term listening proposition. They fail to do the small scale dynamic tracking thing - there's a blandness to the presentation which turns music into sonic soup, the equivalent of watching paint dry, which drives me crazy after a while. Dave / dsjr has said that Harbeth, for one, are hauling themselves out of this particular trap, but I have to say that I haven't yet heard evidence of this, and I have heard quite a few Harbies over recent years.
From my fairly brief listen to those Kralk BC30, they don't do this - there was an immediate "wow" factor walking into their dem room at Whittlebury - after way too many overpriced, underperforming systems here was something that sounded interesting and involving!
All the above just my own opinion, doubtless others hear it differently and/or have different audio priorities to me. :)
Thanks Jerry, I'm seriously considering ordering a pair of those BC-30s, can they be wall mounted, do you know?
I see from the website that there are stands for them which are a reasonable £49.99.
Tony
Martyn Miles
10-10-2014, 17:24
I would fully agree with DJSR re. the Harbeth P3 series, having owned an original pair and now the 'ESRs. Also, much experience with LS3/5as.
The JR149 I have never heard ( or seen...) but it does have its fans. Jim Rogers 'knew his stuff.' I once owned a unique pair he made for the Wilson Stereo Library. Superb little speakers. I wish I'd kept them.
As for this new BC30, it has obviously caught some people's attention. I think I'll reserve judgement until I hear them.
Having P3ESRs rather spoils you...
I would fully agree with DJSR re. the Harbeth P3 series, having owned an original pair and now the 'ESRs. Also, much experience with LS3/5as.
The JR149 I have never heard ( or seen...) but it does have its fans. Jim Rogers 'knew his stuff.' I once owned a unique pair he made for the Wilson Stereo Library. Superb little speakers. I wish I'd kept them.
As for this new BC30, it has obviously caught some people's attention. I think I'll reserve judgement until I hear them.
Having P3ESRs rather spoils you...
l heard the earlier version of the P3ESRs a few years ago and it was one of wow moments in Audio- incredible sound that put on my Harbeth journey.:)
I would fully agree with DJSR re. the Harbeth P3 series, having owned an original pair and now the 'ESRs. Also, much experience with LS3/5as.
The JR149 I have never heard ( or seen...) but it does have its fans. Jim Rogers 'knew his stuff.' I once owned a unique pair he made for the Wilson Stereo Library. Superb little speakers. I wish I'd kept them.
As for this new BC30, it has obviously caught some people's attention. I think I'll reserve judgement until I hear them.
Having P3ESRs rather spoils you...
Thanks Martin, I know I could sell the JR 149s for about the price of the Kralk BC-30s so just a swap really but I am looking for something a bit special and the Harbeths certainly fit that bill as does the ATC SMC11's or even the 19s although I've never heard any of these speakers.
I've had a pair of MA GS10s standmounts, I think, Proac Studio 140s and Kef q something or other floorstanders.
The MA speakers were fantastic and so too were the Proacs but the Proacs were too big for the room, the Kefs were probably fine but they were the first speakers I bought for stereo so didn't really know what I was looking for at the time.
Really need to get a home demo I think.
Thanks David, very interesting indeed.
Tony
The JR149 and 150 (especially the 150 as I recall) are excellent and the styling didn't do them any harm either;)
If I could butt in regarding the Harbeth P3 - ALL versions of them...
I've directly compared (at the Harbeth factory) their incarnation of the 11 Ohm LS3/5A and the original P3, which is comfortably bettered in loudness and 'scale' by the current ESR's. The Harbeth 3/5A, admittedly driven by a Quad 34/306 and a Marantz budget CD source, sounded vague and slightly 'tizzy' (a known characteristic of the T27 tweeter, deliberately made worse by the HF2000 'grille' fitted on top of it). In comparison, the P3 generated a 'proper' wide and deep soundstage with superb focus - people running around in one recording were easy to 'place' whereas the 3/5A made it vague. Lots of this I feel, is due to very careful blending at the crossover point, which the ESR model takes much further IMO.
Now, how does this equate to the JR149? It's my view that the 149, free of the fetters of the BBC requirements and having a cylindrical box with VERY sturdy end caps, lacks the mid-bass 'bump' of the 3/5A (and the lovely 'warmth of tone' of the P3 series), but should make up for this with a very seamless kind of sound from bass to treble, ESPECIALLY with modern sources, amps and cabling. I believe at least one of 'us' here uses 149's and worrasf used them with a restored Quad 303 IIRC, which should have been a great match for them (a good working 303 is still a capable and sweet toned little amp and well worth its status as a well loved vintage amp).
Not really. They do the wonderful, solid 'BBC' midband but cleaner and more accurate. Bass is deeper, cleaner and they are overall more refined. They also provide higher volume levels without distress.
Thanks David, don't suppose you have a demo pair you 'lend out'?
Tony
spendorman
10-10-2014, 18:39
If we are still discussing: "What's comparable to LS3/5a?" I believe that no one has mentioned the KEF constructor designs CS1 and CS1a, they both use the KEF B110 (different version in each), the KEF T27 and a slightly simplified crossover similar to the LS3/5a. I built a pair of CS1a's using the B110 SP1003 and the T27 SP1032. Very good they were, could hardly tell them from my Chartwell LS3/5a's.
Martyn Miles
10-10-2014, 21:31
Falcon Acoustics are selling their new LS3/5as for £1450, and that is competition ( in price at least ) to the Harbeth P3ESRs. They are also now selling an LS3/5a kit for about £800.
That could be interesting and I would enjoy building a pair for somebody....
Just been reading a very good review of the Kralk Audio BC-30s and the reviewer likens them to Linn Kans, no idea if that is a good or bad thing cause those are really marmite speakers from what I've read of them anyway here's the review lifted from Kralk's facebook page below.
Interestingly the reviewer's listening room has remarkably similar dimensions to my own listening room and the sort of material he was listening to is what I listen to on a daily basis but I have to say that from the sound of the review my own speakers, JR149s, sound as though they perform much better than the Kralk's with music and high volume levels, my speakers certainly don't 'shout' at high volume levels and in fact sound fantastic when driven hard by the XTZ amp.
I'm still looking at the Harbeth's as a replacement for the JR 149s but I really need to hear them,I think, before buying.
Based on this review I won't be buying the Kralk's.
Tony
https://www.facebook.com/KralkAudioSpeakers/timeline
Here is the review in full of our little BC-30 Bookshelf speaker featured in the March 2014 edition of Hi-Fi + magazine, written by the well respected critic Paul Messenger,it is a fair review
I feel, and it shows I achieved what I set out to do with the design by making a small speaker that would work well close to the rear wall or on a Bookshelf.....
Kralk Audio will be a new name to most readers. I first encountered the company (and its principal, Alan Clark) at the National Audio Show in Whittlebury Hall last September. The name ‘Kralk’ is derived from inverting Clark’s name, and this newcomer from Stanley, near Wakefield in West Yorkshire brought a handful of different models to the show.
Although all its more upmarket stablemates incorporate a form of transmission line loading (known as a DTLPS or ‘Dual Transmission Line Port System’), this tiny BC-30 is a simple sealed box. It’s also remarkably inexpensive for something that looks similar to a BBC LS3/5a, as the base price is just £349 per pair for the standard versions. These are offered in the buyer’s choice of four real wood veneered finishes (Light Oak, Black Ash, Sapele and Walnut). Personal alternative finishes may be specified for £50 more, and the intention is to offer bi-wire terminals at £50 extra during 2014.
However, the BC-30 is not an LS3/5a, nor does it pretend to be an LS3/5a. In fact, I would characterise the Kralk Audio BC-30 as an ‘un-3/5a’, since the BC-30’s design goals are very different to the LS3/5a, and Alan Clark quite deliberately avoids the complex network and considerable equalisation used in that veteran BBC design.
Put simply, the Kralk Audio ethos is to design a loudspeaker ‘ears first’, rather than create a loudspeaker that satisfies the demands of measurement over listeners. To this end, Kralk Audio tailors the BC-30 away from the commonly-held goal of a flat frequency response, delivering instead a tonal balance designed to reproduce the live event within the confines of the domestic listening environment.
If we are attempting to discover the Kralk Audio BC-30’s spiritual ancestor in the small, sealed box world, then look instead at the superficially identical Linn Kan from around 30 years ago. Like the Kan, the BC-30 deliberately relinquishes many of the traditional concepts of high-fidelity loudspeaker design, preferring instead to march to a different beat. And, given the Linn Kan still has something of a cult following to this day, marching to a different beat can be a successful way to compete in an extremely contended market.
Kralk Audio calls the BC-30 a mini-monitor, and it’s certainly small: the bass/mid and treble drivers virtually fill the whole of the inset front panel. The grille is recessed within a ‘picture frame’ formed by the sides, top, and base, once more recalling the design cues of the aforementioned BBC and Linn models. Unlike these designs, though, the main mid-bass driver of the BC-30 is rear-mounted, and has a doped paper cone roughly 90mm in diameter, while the flush-mounted tweeter has a 25mm soft fabric dome, and sits in a substantial and solid aluminium faceplate some 6mm thick.
Under the real wood veneer, the enclosure is mainly built from 9mm birch ply. This is damped by a felt lining with additional Sonarflex acoustic foam padding. The ‘knuckle rap test’, however, did reveal that the box sounded quite lively.
A single pair of terminals feed a crossover that allegedly uses 100% matched components for each pair, with hand-wound inductors and 3% metallised plastic propylene capacitors from MKP in Germany. Internally, all is hard-wired with the studio engineering and low-cost audiophile cable of choice, Van Damme. The cabinet sits on rubber stud feet that should not be removed, according to the instruction leaflet supplied with the BC-30.
That instruction leaflet also recommends mounting the Kralk Audio BC-30 on 70-100cm stands, but it also suggests that the speakers may be placed close to a wall on bookshelves. It only took a minute or two to realise that the word ‘may’ should be replaced with ‘must’: once again reminiscent of the Linn Kan, the Kralk Audio BC-30 is not best served by free-space siting, as there is simply not enough bass and lower midband on offer without boundary reinforcement.
The Kralk loudspeakers were driven by my regular system, which largely consists of Naim components: NAC552 pre-amp, NAP500 power amp, a CDS3/555PS CD player, and a modified Linn LP12 with Rega RB1000 arm and Soundsmith strain gauge cartridge. Cables and supports are a mixture of Vertex AQ, Vertere and Naim. At 5.5m long, 4.3m wide and 2.6m tall, my listening room is relatively large for a loudspeaker as small as the BC-30.
My reference system could be considered overkill for this loudspeaker, because its impedance plot shows the Kralk Audio BC-30 to be a comfortable ride for an amplifier to drive, because its load stays above eight ohms throughout. The solitary sealed-box resonance looks quite well damped and is tuned very close to a sensible 100Hz. There was a modest variation between the two loudspeakers.
The slopes of the impedance either side of the BC-30’s crossover are gentle, as might be expected from a simple capacitor and coil network, and no equalisation has been applied to flatten the overall frequency response.
Even with close-to-wall reinforcement, the BC-30’s output falls away below 350Hz and is typically around 5dB below the generous 89dB/W sensitivity datum. Paradoxically, though, bass extension is decent for so small a cabinet. A significant peak is formed between 900Hz and 1.6kHz, rising to a maximum of +5dB at 1.3kHz, beyond which is a characteristically restrained presence band. The treble itself is generally well-balanced, but with peaks at 6-8kHz and 14-16kHz. These measurements tend to support Kralk Audio’s claimed design ethos, and our suggestion that the company is “marching to a different beat”.
The strong character of the BC-30 results in a loudspeaker that tends to emphasise the vocal reproduction – both singing and spoken – in any recording or transmission. This ability to make human voices unusually intelligible, even when the volume is turned down low, is arguably the
BC-30’s biggest strength. Although the reflections created by close-to-wall siting normally introduce a measure of coloration, this didn’t seem to be a significant problem on this occasion, and any colorations introduced by the tiny, rigid and sealed enclosure used here are certainly vanishingly low.
The notably dry bass and fine control of enclosure effects help ensure a splendid freedom from the chestiness that often plagues other loudspeakers, while the restrained presence band helps avoid any aggressive tendencies, always provided the volume is kept fairly low. Indeed, the BC-30s did a very good job during an extended period spent listening to speech radio and television sources, so much so that one was hardly aware that it had taken the place of the much larger speakers that are normally in use
However, the Kralk’s limitations do become more evident with further exploration. Turn the volume to high levels and the BC-30 will shout, rather than sing. Also, while any aggressive tendencies remained well controlled, the treble unevenness was probably responsible for a modest but evident degree of ‘lispiness’. Furthermore, while the decidedly dry bass end is arguably beneficial when listening to speech at realistic levels, it does tend to become almost too dry with music programme.
Stereo imaging is generally fine, though there is a tendency to project the image forward. This can mask the subtler perspectives and depth found in appropriate recordings.
Small loudspeakers usually have inherently modest dynamic expression, and the BC-30’s tonal balance provides a degree of compensation. To some extent this does work, adding a vigour and excitement one is unlikely to find in a smoother and flatter loudspeaker of similar size.
Ultimately, I keep coming back to the Linn Kan. Many of the strengths and weaknesses of the Linn apply to the Kralk. This may mean the BC-30 ends up the 21st Century Kan, which is no bad thing.
While it would be easy to criticise the BC-30’s design for not being more balanced, that was not the goal. Instead, the idea behind the Kralk Audio BC-30 can best be summed up as a very peaky midband loudspeaker that can be used up against a wall without sounding ‘muddy’. And it achieves that goal very well indeed.
Hi Tony
I use the same amp you have and just wondered if you had given any consideration to using a separate pre-amp? I've tried several, both active and passive and am of the opinion that the XTZ pre amp stage can be improved on. It might be a better use of funds, given that you have quality speakers that work in your room already.
Otherwise the only thing I would add is that the XTZ does not have warm and bouncy bass like some power amps. It will reproduce even 'club' type-bass in quite a scary fashion when fed with it but with no exaggeration or bloom to it so you might want to avoid partnering with a speaker that has a 'dry' bass response.
Hi Tony
I use the same amp you have and just wondered if you had given any consideration to using a separate pre-amp? I've tried several, both active and passive and am of the opinion that the XTZ pre amp stage can be improved on. It might be a better use of funds, given that you have quality speakers that work in your room already.
Otherwise the only thing I would add is that the XTZ does not have warm and bouncy bass like some power amps. It will reproduce even 'club' type-bass in quite a scary fashion when fed with it but with no exaggeration or bloom to it so you might want to avoid partnering with a speaker that has a 'dry' bass response.
Hi Martin, no not used a pre-amp yet, when I first bought the amp I wasn't to enamoured by it but since listening to it every day for the past fortnight I have to say it is a complete bargain and sounds excellent with what I use it for such as internet radio, iphone music, TV and FM radio too, I've not listened to a CD yet but will.
I listen to mainly jazz and seventies soul with some eighties stuff and the likes of Radio 2, 3 & 4 and some voice radio and of course TV at low volume levels so I'm looking for a clearer more precise sound at the low volume level I listen at, bass doesn't bother me too much but I do want to hear the music properly at the level I listen at so do you think that the speakers can be improve in this regard with a better pre-amp?
That's an interesting suggestion BTW.
My Firebottle phono didn't sound anywhere near as good with the XTZ as it did with my Rega Brio-R though so I've sent the firebottle back Alan to have it upgraded as Alan thought there might be an impedance mismatch with both amps and that the upgrade might sort that out (it's a relatively cheap upgrade) hopefully however I've been listening to the XTZ's phono amp this week and I really like the sound of it now but didn't on first listen and so stopped listening to vinyl.
I now think that the XTZ amp It really is a suberb amp and I doubt I will be parting with it anytime soon, I intially bought it, ironically enough, to try the speakers with a more powerful amp to see what they sounded like and they certainly sound great with the XTZ amp at higher volume levels than I usually listen to.
BTW, Alan (Firebottle) suggested getting in touch with you re what phono amp you use, if any, with the XTZ amp?
Thanks
Tony
I'm using one of Alan's Firebottle phono stages, although I have not tried it into the XTZ pre-amp. I'm using it because the passive pre I use does not have a phono stage. I have used the XTZ phono stage a fair bit. According to HFW review it measures 'perfectly' on MM and MC. Firebottle through the passive pre is a fair step up from it, though. The thing with the XTZ is that whilst new it is a bargain and used it is a ridiculous bargain the integrated version is only a £70 premium over the power amp and for that you get MM and MC phono stages and a DAC so let's face it that is a cheap as chips all IC pre-amp so unlikely that it cannot be easily improved on.
Re your issue with the Firebottle, could be an electrical mis-match (impedance or whatever) but my thought is that the pre-amp section of the Rega amp is considerably better than that of the XTZ and that is why you are not getting the same results.
I'm using one of Alan's Firebottle phono stages, although I have not tried it into the XTZ pre-amp. I'm using it because the passive pre I use does not have a phono stage. I have used the XTZ phono stage a fair bit. According to HFW review it measures 'perfectly' on MM and MC. Firebottle through the passive pre is a fair step up from it, though. The thing with the XTZ is that whilst new it is a bargain and used it is a ridiculous bargain the integrated version is only a £70 premium over the power amp and for that you get MM and MC phono stages and a DAC so let's face it that is a cheap as chips all IC pre-amp so unlikely that it cannot be easily improved on.
Re your issue with the Firebottle, could be an electrical mis-match (impedance or whatever) but my thought is that the pre-amp section of the Rega amp is considerably better than that of the XTZ and that is why you are not getting the same results.
Thanks Martin, never even considered that the Brio-s pre-amp section was better than the XTZ's :doh:
I see that you've an NVA passive pre-amp, I've only ever used one pre-amp before, a Parasound Halo 3, any other suggestions for a pre?
I'm not sure about a passive one though however I'm open to all suggestions.
Tony
PS, would love to hear that cart of yours:cool:
I find the passive gives that 'high end' transparency without paying a high end price ;) I guess you can get active preamps that will do the same disappearing act but you are talking thousands of pounds.
I've tried the following pre-amps with the XTZ - Linn LK1, Croft Micro-Basic, Tisbury passive, NVA P90SA passive. They all improved on the XTZ pre in some areas, only the NVA improves on it in pretty much every area. Gain was an issue with the Croft, just too much of it with CD source, otherwise that was a good sound too.
I've compared the XTZ power amp section with other power amps (Sony 55ES, Linn LK100, Harmon Kardon 930, NVA A90) and it has a noticeably lower noise floor (inky blacks and all that) plus the ability to do massive dynamic swings at high SPL without even breaking a sweat. Consequently it just gets out of the way of the sound. I bought it as I needed the current delivery to drive difficult speakers, now I've changed the speakers I don't really need that much power but I've no intention of swapping it for anything else. I really cannot, even when really trying, hear it doing anything wrong.
That's about the limit of my experience so I wouldn't blindly recommend a particular pre-amp other than to say at least try a passive or two on home trial and see if it works for you. Otherwise you could start a new thread for suggestions in that area.
Passive pre's are fine as long as you have good gain in the power amp I reckon (I'll leave impedance matching to the experts). I admit that many modern amps NEED a line buffer to drive them though.
Difficult to respond to Jerry's general opinion of modern Harbeths. When I used to attend shows, the Harbeth dems always sounded 'nice,' but NEVER what I'd call involving or powerful. Thankfully, I've heard all the current ones in hifi dave's environment and with a fairly good range of gear now and they're rather more 'dangerous' here, the meekness heard at shows totally absent. In fact I could go one step further and say that the new SHL5+ is so far, the most 'dangerous' of all Harbeths and probably BBC derived designs of all and balanced more like the 40.1 in the bass/mid (even more neutral than before). Maybe not as 'dynamic' as a good active can be, but tons more 'seamless' instead :) Current slim Spendors sound ragged in comparison (the D7 had a 'glare' in it I didn't care for).
I find the passive gives that 'high end' transparency without paying a high end price ;) I guess you can get active preamps that will do the same disappearing act but you are talking thousands of pounds.
I've tried the following pre-amps with the XTZ - Linn LK1, Croft Micro-Basic, Tisbury passive, NVA P90SA passive. They all improved on the XTZ pre in some areas, only the NVA improves on it in pretty much every area. Gain was an issue with the Croft, just too much of it with CD source, otherwise that was a good sound too.
I've compared the XTZ power amp section with other power amps (Sony 55ES, Linn LK100, Harmon Kardon 930, NVA A90) and it has a noticeably lower noise floor (inky blacks and all that) plus the ability to do massive dynamic swings at high SPL without even breaking a sweat. Consequently it just gets out of the way of the sound. I bought it as I needed the current delivery to drive difficult speakers, now I've changed the speakers I don't really need that much power but I've no intention of swapping it for anything else. I really cannot, even when really trying, hear it doing anything wrong.
That's about the limit of my experience so I wouldn't blindly recommend a particular pre-amp other than to say at least try a passive or two on home trial and see if it works for you. Otherwise you could start a new thread for suggestions in that area.
Thanks Martin, just remembered I had a Croft Micro Basic pre with phono stage, I couldn't get on with it, hated the dual volume pots and the gain was murder to control.
I ended up selling it on for very little loss of dosh.
Yep might start a new thread, apologies to the OP for hi-jacking this one.
Passive pre's are fine as long as you have good gain in the power amp I reckon (I'll leave impedance matching to the experts). I admit that many modern amps NEED a line buffer to drive them though.
Difficult to respond to Jerry's general opinion of modern Harbeths. When I used to attend shows, the Harbeth dems always sounded 'nice,' but NEVER what I'd call involving or powerful. Thankfully, I've heard all the current ones in hifi dave's environment and with a fairly good range of gear now and they're rather more 'dangerous' here, the meekness heard at shows totally absent. In fact I could go one step further and say that the new SHL5+ is so far, the most 'dangerous' of all Harbeths and probably BBC derived designs of all and balanced more like the 40.1 in the bass/mid (even more neutral than before). Maybe not as 'dynamic' as a good active can be, but tons more 'seamless' instead :) Current slim Spendors sound ragged in comparison (the D7 had a 'glare' in it I didn't care for).
Thanks again David, the Harbeths certainly attract stunning reviews but if I do decide to buy a pair I'm going to have to get a demo somewhere as it's way too much money to take a chance on, obviously they'll be easy to move on but I don't really want the hassel of selling.
Tony
southall-1998
12-10-2014, 17:11
Why Shane, not musical or suitable for low volume listening or both?
Thanks
Tony
ATC's are 'typical' monitors. All they give out is good technique and upfront detail. There is no soul, if that makes any sense?
But as always, each to their own.
S.
Shane, take it from me... Passive ATC's now push the upper midrange it seems, just like many small pro monitors do. You can tame the effects of this aggressive balance with POWER and LOTS of it, even if you don't play too loud. I'd suggest that Quad's current dumpers would be a good smooth and velvety choice, as long as older 405-2's and 606's are checked and serviced!
Shane, take it from me... Passive ATC's now push the upper midrange it seems, just like many small pro monitors do. You can tame the effects of this aggressive balance with POWER and LOTS of it, even if you don't play too loud. I'd suggest that Quad's current dumpers would be a good smooth and velvety choice, as long as older 405-2's and 606's are checked and serviced!
Does that mean then David that the ATCs do sound musical and are good at low level listening volumes?
The amp I have now has loads of current and power.
BTW, as an aside I demoed a pair of Spendor mini monitors a few years ago, they were about £1200 plus another £300 for the stands, I remember the colour of them was Zebrano (think they might have been A1s or something) and for the money I certainy wasn't impressed.
Thanks.
ATC's are 'typical' monitors. All they give out is good technique and upfront detail. There is no soul, if that makes any sense?
But as always, each to their own.
S.
Thanks Shane.
The re-imagined Spendor SA1's were a bit fruity in balance I remember and the main issue I think modern Spendors have is the fact they're still using a form of polypropylene for the main driver. Doesn't matter what is done with the tonal balance, it's either thick and a bit bland or brightly lit and slightly rough.. Just my view, but you can do what you like with the crossover and cabinet, but if the driver material is showing its age........................
ATC's have changed a lot from twenty years ago. The factory has scaled right down and as I said, the upper mid has been pushed forwards a good bit on many or most of the range. The one main compromise in their speakers is that they need good old fashioned VOLTS to swing them along and most 'nimble' amps as used by the likes of 'us' just don't do it. The tonal balance now makes program distortion, compression, amp clipping and amp stress even more audible, hence the un-musical vibes from many people. This is why I love the baby Harbeths so much, as the 'radial' cone material really does maintain a tactile quality despite the complex crossover (they are getting simpler and less intrusive as time goes on though).
walpurgis
12-10-2014, 19:34
they're still using a form of polypropylene for the main driver. Doesn't matter what is done with the tonal balance, it's either thick and a bit bland or brightly lit and slightly rough
I'd go along with that. I've not heard many Polypropylene coned speakers that sounded quite right. There's often a slight 'quack' colouration in the mid.
Thanks guys, well the Harbeth's are right at the top of my list now, just need to hear them or take a chance and buy blind:eyebrows:
Martyn Miles
12-10-2014, 19:46
Thanks guys, well the Harbeths are right at the top of my list now, just need to hear them or take a chance and buy blind:eyebrows:
I bought my P3ESRs without hearing them. As the original HL-P3s I had were, to my ears, audibly superior to the LS3/5a I bought a pair of used 'ESRs when they became available.
The best move I ever made with a pair of loudspeakers
hifi_dave
13-10-2014, 08:42
Thanks guys, well the Harbeth's are right at the top of my list now, just need to hear them or take a chance and buy blind:eyebrows:
You won't be disappointed.:thumbsup:
You won't be disappointed.:thumbsup:
Thanks Dave, just a pity your so far away mate.
Probably be a while before I do buy a pair but if I go down the dealer road then you are at the top of the list.
Cheers
Tony
Thanks guys, well the Harbeth's are right at the top of my list now, just need to hear them or take a chance and buy blind:eyebrows:
Patience can be your friend here Tony. If you wait for a pair to turn up 'pre loved', and they do from time to time, pay around £900 and if you wish to move them on you'll do so at little or no loss.
Martyn Miles
14-10-2014, 14:06
Patience can be your friend here Tony. If you wait for a pair to turn up 'pre loved', and they do from time to time, pay around £900 and if you wish to move them on you'll do so at little or no loss.
There are some P3ESRs on eBay at £879, in Newton Abbot. If I wanted a pair these are well priced, as another pair just went for £900.
There are some P3ESRs on eBay at £879, in Newton Abbot. If I wanted a pair these are well priced, as another pair just went for £900.
Seen those two pairs Martin, the ones in Newton Abbot were on Gumtree last week for £799 pick up only.
I was going to phone the guy or text him until I spotted the pick up only thing but on ebay he is prepared to post to I'll keep an eye on the advert, pity it's not on a BIN but they are about four years old I think.
The ones that went for £900 were only months old but had a scratch on the bottom of one speaker, not that that would bother me unduly.
Patience can be your friend here Tony. If you wait for a pair to turn up 'pre loved', and they do from time to time, pay around £900 and if you wish to move them on you'll do so at little or no loss.
Thanks Ian that sounds like a plan, I did see a nice pair of Dynaudio SE52s for sale on the wam and those are in Glasgow but I don't want ported speakers now so I'm going to hang about waiting on a pair of Harbeths.
Interestingly there is a pair of Harbeth HL-P3 ES complete with bass extenders for sale on e-bay along with Cyrus amps for a very reasonable £750 pick up only from Bournmouth (guy said he might post).
Anyone have any info on these Harbeths with the bass extenders, are the P3 Es speakers on their own comparable to the P3 ERS speakers?
Tony
Martyn Miles
14-10-2014, 22:32
Interestingly there is a pair of Harbeth HL-P3 ES complete with bass extenders for sale on e-bay along with Cyrus amps for a very reasonable £750 pick up only from Bournmouth (guy said he might post).
Anyone have any info on these Harbeths with the bass extenders, are the P3 Es speakers on their own comparable to the P3 ERS speakers?
Tony
I was rather intrigued by those bass extenders.
By the way, if I had seen those 'ESRs on Gumtree for £799 I would have driven down and bought them. They must have gone by now, as that is a very good price.
Surely when the market picks up I could have made something on them...
Devon is too far for me Martin, that's an eleven hour drive plus petrol both ways.
The Esrs are still on gumtree it's the same ones that are currently on e-bay that failled to sell on Sunday however it's cash on collection on gumtree with postage on ebay at about another £100+.
http://www.gumtree.com/p/other-household-goods/harbeth-p3esr-speakers-excellent-unmarked-condition-light-use/1081395639
Must say I'm interested in these.
Tony
Martyn Miles
15-10-2014, 09:58
Devon is too far for me Martin, that's an eleven hour drive plus petrol both ways.
The Esrs are still on gumtree it's the same ones that are currently on e-bay that failled to sell on Sunday however it's cash on collection on gumtree with postage on ebay at about another £100+.
http://www.gumtree.com/p/other-household-goods/harbeth-p3esr-speakers-excellent-unmarked-condition-light-use/1081395639
Must say I'm interested in these.
Tony
I texted him and they are still available for £799 collected.
Where do you live, Tony ? I could, perhaps, travel and get them for you and we could work out fuel costs. We have friends down near Exeter we are planning a visit sometime during school half-term.
Martyn.
I texted him and they are still available for £799 collected.
Where do you live, Tony ? I could, perhaps, travel and get them for you and we could work out fuel costs. We have friends down near Exeter we are planning a visit sometime during school half-term.
Martyn.
Hi Martin, that's very kind of you, I'm in Glasgow Martin:(
Martyn Miles
15-10-2014, 21:23
Hi Martin, that's very kind of you, I'm in Glasgow Martin:(
Yes, that is a long way away! I am in Oxfordshire, so only 2 & 1/2 hrs. to the speakers and a LONG way to Glasgow...
Yes, that is a long way away! I am in Oxfordshire, so only 2 & 1/2 hrs. to the speakers and a LONG way to Glasgow...
Hi Martin, I've sent the seller a decent offer to inc post to Glasgow, least I think it's a decent offer, I'll let you know the outcome.
Tony
Martyn Miles
16-10-2014, 14:18
Hi Martin, I've sent the seller a decent offer to inc post to Glasgow, least I think it's a decent offer, I'll let you know the outcome.
Tony
I hope you get them. They are superb little speakers.
Martyn.
I hope you get them. They are superb little speakers.
Martyn.
Hi Martyn, the guy never replied to my text, he's obviously hedging his bets but I'll not be buying his speakers.
I'll get a pair from someone else who has the decency to respond to a text.
Tony
southall-1998
16-10-2014, 17:26
Hi Martyn, the guy never replied to my text, he's obviously hedging his bets but I'll not be buying his speakers.
I'll get a pair from someone else who has the decency to respond to a text.
Tony
Good move, Tony.
I can't stand poor communication!
S.
Good move, Tony.
I can't stand poor communication!
S.
Me too Shane, I mean to reply to a text takes like, seconds!
Having said that the guy did reply tonight, about ten mins ago in fact, he wants the speakers picked up cash on collection, I totally understand that but I can't so bit of a deadlock which is a shame considering he's got a score of over 400 feedback on ebay so he must be used to sending stuff out.
Anyway upwards and onwards as they say...
Martyn Miles
16-10-2014, 19:39
Hi Martyn, the guy never replied to my text, he's obviously hedging his bets but I'll not be buying his speakers.
I'll get a pair from someone else who has the decency to respond to a text.
Tony
Oh. I texted him out of interest and offered him £760, collected. ( I was thinking about getting them for you and shipping to Glasgow) He replied, £799 collected.
It will be interesting to see, if he doesn't sell, if he accepts my offer...
Oh. I texted him out of interest and offered him £760, collected. ( I was thinking about getting them for you and shipping to Glasgow) He replied, £799 collected.
It will be interesting to see, if he doesn't sell, if he accepts my offer...
Hi Martyn, I offered him £825 delivered to Glasgow and he refused, insisted on pick up only.
BTW Martyn that is incredibly generous of you which I would be absolutely delighted with if it comes off.
Thanks
Tony
Martyn Miles
16-10-2014, 21:41
Hi Martyn, I offered him £825 delivered to Glasgow and he refused, insisted on pick up only.
BTW Marytn that is incredibly generous of you which I would be absolutely delighted with if it comes off.
Thanks
Tony
Plans are still tenuous re. a visit, as I haven't checked yet if the friends are around the week after next.
Will keep you updated.
Plans are still tenuous re. a visit, as I haven't checked yet if the friends are around the week after next.
Will keep you updated.
Thanks Martyn.
Interestingly there is a pair of Harbeth HL-P3 ES complete with bass extenders for sale on e-bay along with Cyrus amps for a very reasonable £750 pick up only from Bournmouth (guy said he might post).
Anyone have any info on these Harbeths with the bass extenders, are the P3 Es speakers on their own comparable to the P3 ERS speakers?
Tony
I have a pair of HL-P3 ES with "Xtenders". I am not using them at the moment but some people prefer them without the Xtenders connected. I have not done a compare with the latest model, but the 2 main differences are radiused cabinet edges to reduce diffraction effects (since the HL-P3 ES2) and the radial main driver cone. I have no idea what the overall difference is but there is (or used to be) a video on the Harbeth site where Alan Shaw is discussing the difference in sound between the the cone materials and synthesising a compare. The difference is noticeable but perhaps less marked than I was expecting.
Anyway, he must think it worthwhile since he paid for the tooling to make it, though I suppose that expense may be worthwhile for marketing if a unique drive unit sells more speakers.
Jersey Roge
19-10-2014, 21:04
Hi All I'm using a pair of 1979 vintage Kef cantata's, they use a B110 as a midrange and the T52 dome tweeter, similar driver's to the LS3/5a but with a larger infinite baffle box using the B139 bass driver,. The midrange & treble is sweet on these but driven by my John Wood 100w channel valve amp they are truly thunderous, a delight to listen to
Martyn Miles
19-10-2014, 21:39
Hi All I'm using a pair of 1979 vintage Kef cantata's, they use a B110 as a midrange and the T52 dome tweeter, similar driver's to the LS3/5a but with a larger infinite baffle box using the B139 bass driver,. The midrange & treble is sweet on these but driven by my John Wood 100w channel valve amp they are truly thunderous, a delight to listen to
Thanks, but rather off the subject...
Thanks, but rather off the subject...
No, he was on topic .:)
Martyn Miles
20-10-2014, 16:14
No, he was on topic .:)
Point taken, but 'comparable with' not an alternative.
Well my Harbeth P3 ESR speakers arrived today, they're Rosewood and in mint as new condition, I bought them from a wammer who was fantastic during the deal, I won't name him for fear of embaressing him but it really was the perfect deal and he made it so easy with loads of communication.
Anyway I've just put them into my system and oh my! These things sound just bleeding amazing, a big huge soundstage and wonderful piano, you can actually hear a pin drop between the quiet passages of records, it's eerily quiet at times, I'm currently listening to a 1963 CBS Stereo copy of Kind Of Blue which is a UK pressing, I've owned this record since I got into vinyl about five years ago and it is one of my absolute favourite records that I own and obviously I know it very well but let me tell you I have never heard this record sounding so good, it's almost like a different record, astonishing.
I've no idea how theses speakers produce the sound that they do given how small they are, amazing, doubt I've ever heard my system sound as good as this.
Regarding the original subject of this thread then I would say that the Jr 149s and the P3s sound very much simliar in presentation and,for speakers 35 years old, the JRs are wonderful speakers but there's just something 'else' going on with the Harbeths, my jaw is literally on the floor at the moment, Miles Davis is in the house guys:eek:
Spooky really spooky, pretty apt given what day it is.
I'll get some more listening in over the weekend and update this thread when I've had more time with the speakers.
Tony
PS I've got a bit of a problem with my stylus/phono amp but at the moment they are working fine.
Really pleased for you Tony, I had a similar experience when I installed the MA's. I put music on for background listening when I'm working or doing other stuff (like browsing AoS), these days it is impossible to do that as I find myself being drawn into the music, as a consequence I invariably stop whatever it is I am doing :)
Really pleased for you Tony, I had a similar experience when I installed the MA's. I put music on for background listening when I'm working or doing other stuff (like browsing AoS), these days it is impossible to do that as I find myself being drawn into the music, as a consequence I invariably stop whatever it is I am doing :)
Thanks Dave, I finally get the whole being drawn into the music thing, I've never experienced that ever.
I was listening to a track on KOB and I was actually in the room with the musicians, lost it for a minute my concentration just went, wonderful.
Thanks Dave, I finally get the whole being drawn into the music thing, I've never experienced that ever.
I was listening to a track on KOB and I was actually in the room with the musicians, lost it for a minute my concentration just went, wonderful.
Isn't it though :D I had Geoff (Walpurgis) here today, amongst other things he brought over a Meridian 206 CDP he is selling for me to try in the system. It's mine now for it completes the jigsaw and has brought me front row seats to every performance. Words cannot describe how grateful I am to all those who have helped bump me up the ladder, the system... No: The music sounds exquisite now... :wow:
Isn't it though :D I had Geoff (Walpurgis) here today, amongst other things he brought over a Meridian 206 CDP he is selling for me to try in the system. It's mine now for it completes the jigsaw and has brought me front row seats to every performance. Words cannot describe how grateful I am to all those who have helped bump me up the ladder, the system... No: The music sounds exquisite now... :wow:
The Harbies are defo keepers Dave, they do everything the JRs do but even better, I've had the JR 149s for about two years and love them but a man has to move on:cool:
wiicrackpot
31-10-2014, 20:10
Glad it's worked out for you, i suspect it would, :cool: speaking as a ex SHL5 owner,
Harbs are among the top 3 speakers ever to pass my hands, try some vocals and come back to tell us about it....
.
.
.
.
......if you can pick yourself off the floor. :)
Martyn Miles
01-11-2014, 11:24
Well my Harbeth P3 ESR speakers arrived today, they're Rosewood and in mint as new condition, I bought them from a wammer who was fantastic during the deal, I won't name him for fear of embaressing him but it really was the perfect deal and he made it so easy with loads of communication.
Anyway I've just put them into my system and oh my! These things sound just bleeding amazing, a big huge soundstage and wonderful piano, you can actually hear a pin drop between the quiet passages of records, it's eerily quiet at times, I'm currently listening to a 1963 CBS Stereo copy of Kind Of Blue which is a UK pressing, I've owned this record since I got into vinyl about five years ago and it is one of my absolute favourite records that I own and obviously I know it very well but let me tell you I have never heard this record sounding so good, it's almost like a different record, astonishing.
I've no idea how theses speakers produce the sound that they do given how small they are, amazing, doubt I've ever heard my system sound as good as this.
Regarding the original subject of this thread then I would say that the Jr 149s and the P3s sound very much simliar in presentation and,for speakers 35 years old, the JRs are wonderful speakers but there's just something 'else' going on with the Harbeths, my jaw is literally on the floor at the moment, Miles Davis is in the house guys:eek:
Spooky really spooky, pretty apt given what day it is.
I'll get some more listening in over the weekend and update this thread when I've had more time with the speakers.
Tony
PS I've got a bit of a problem with my stylus/phono amp but at the moment they are working fine.
I knew you'd be pleased. ( Perhaps 'pleased' is somewhat of an understatement...)
The are just THE BEST speakers I have ever owned.
M Miles.
I knew you'd be pleased. ( Perhaps 'pleased' is somewhat of an understatement...)
The are just THE BEST speakers I have ever owned.
M Miles.
Thanks for all your help Martyn, I'm over the moon and btw so is my wife which is a complete result, think it's the size she likes and the sound of course:cool:
Glad it's worked out for you, i suspect it would, :cool: speaking as a ex SHL5 owner,
Harbs are among the top 3 speakers ever to pass my hands, try some vocals and come back to tell us about it....
.
.
.
.
......if you can pick yourself off the floor. :)
Hi Andy I'm going to do some serious listening this afternoon, I'll get back to you:eek:
Good to hear youve got a big upgrade Tony. Harbeths are out of my league at mo but would like to go down that route one day myself
Good to hear youve got a big upgrade Tony. Harbeths are out of my league at mo but would like to go down that route one day myself
Don't know if you've seen the P3s Grant but they are tiny and I mean tiny but what a sound, absolutely amazing.
I've had Proac Studio 140s, MA GS 10s, Jr 149s, Kef IQ 30s, I think, and my son has a pair of Focal floorstanders and these Harbeths sound bigger and larger with more volume as in room filing volume, lots of bass and the mid range is to die for and yet they are about the size of a pair of desktop speakers, I've no idea how Harbeth manage to get these wee things sounding like big huge floor standers.
The only speakers out of that lot above that comes anywhere near close to the P3s is the Jr 149s, the other speakers, though decent, are not even remotely as good or sound as good, it's not even funny how much better the Harbeths are it's like speakers should sound I suppose but loads don't sadly.
Sure they're expensive, I mean new they are £750 a speaker:eek: but I'll tell you something they are a complete bargain even at that price but you look at them and think 'feck me that thing costs £750 it's tiny!' but the sound is to die for.
The telling thing for me was the smile on my wife's face when I put them in the system and stuck a record on, she hates speakers but loves music and the P3s are perfect for her cause they sound amazing and they are so small the only problem is getting a stand to suit the room but she's quite happy to maybe spend a bit on a stand that looks like a bit of furniture or will suit both the room and the speakers and that is quite telling cause there is no way she would have even considered stand mounted speakers before so even she is prepared to accomodate the Harbeth's into the lounge where the Hi-Fi is.
I love them.
Tony
Glad it's worked out for you, i suspect it would, :cool: speaking as a ex SHL5 owner,
Harbs are among the top 3 speakers ever to pass my hands, try some vocals and come back to tell us about it....
.
.
.
.
......if you can pick yourself off the floor. :)
If you think the SHL5's were good, the 'Plus' evolution of the design takes it a little further. The bass is still there, but in better? proportion for some UK rooms and the mid is now almost ruthlessly clear, not in an edgy way at all, just that bit more explicit again over previous models. DEFINITELY no longer a 'pipe and slippers' speaker...
By the way, the Falcon site has some fascinating stuff in addition to the Stirling one and you can buy kits from both which will give you little 'precision' two ways.
Gawd, even bloody KANS can now be souped up :eek:
Martyn Miles
01-11-2014, 15:50
If you think the SHL5's were good, the 'Plus' evolution of the design takes it a little further. The bass is still there, but in better? proportion for some UK rooms and the mid is now almost ruthlessly clear, not in an edgy way at all, just that bit more explicit again over previous models. DEFINITELY no longer a 'pipe and slippers' speaker...
By the way, the Falcon site has some fascinating stuff in addition to the Stirling one and you can buy kits from both which will give you little 'precision' two ways.
Gawd, even bloody KANS can now be souped up :eek:
Now 'souped-up Kans' reminds me of a certain Andy Warhol and his art.
I wonder if he would have liked the little Linn speakers ?
wiicrackpot
01-11-2014, 16:12
Tony,
Your wives reaction mirrors my Sister's, while she was over visiting, i was playing Patti Griffin (children running through),
she was captivated by achingly beautiful sound coming through, then i turned DJ mode and played her a lot of female vocals,
selected tracks from Eleanor Mcevoy,Jennifer Warnes,Emmylou Harris,Bonnie Rait,Mary Black,Loreena McKennitt,Eddi Reader,Nanci Grifith....etc,
and she declared ''these are the speakers are beautiful,the best you've ever owned'', and she's not into hifi. ;)
Glad you're enjoying those P3's, keep us updated, always like to hear others views.
wiicrackpot
01-11-2014, 16:22
If you think the SHL5's were good, the 'Plus' evolution of the design takes it a little further. The bass is still there, but in better? proportion for some UK rooms and the mid is now almost ruthlessly clear, not in an edgy way at all, just that bit more explicit again over previous models. DEFINITELY no longer a 'pipe and slippers' speaker...
Dave,
You bad man, don't tempt me anymore, to think the mids have got better is unthinkable, i really loved the mids and didn't find the treble lacking,
or problems with the bass either, i have read criticisms they are a bit 'pipes and slippers' and lacking dynamics,but people prefer different presentations,
if you are looking for a LOUD speaker that throw out everything at you (imagine Amy Winehouse' drug fuelled breath inches from you), look elsewhere,
i just love the utterly beguiling quality and presentation of these Harbs, i just can't find enough words to describe their greatness.
P.S, if you want to hear them fall apart, play some KLF 'the white room', horrible !!!, they're just not that type of speakers.
I wouldn't say it's better midrange, just slightly different bass alignment which allows the mid to shine out more. To me, the weakest one is the C7ES3, the ripe bass of which drowns out a lovely midrange in hifi dave's room. That's why I much preferred the 30.1 and the SHL5+ is more like this now.
ALL you need to do to close the tiny gap is to bring the SHL5 a little further out into the room, that's all. It's evolution, not revolution here, with little tweaks here and there. I still revere the SHL5 and in all honesty, find the balance more 'comfortable' on long sessions. I feel it didn't need to be changed at all. Apparently it was stocks of some parts (radial mk1 cones?) that made it necessary. In all honesty, I've heard other makes be changed FAR more in the course of production and nobody being told (Castle and Rogers did this with the Severn (Castle) and LS6 and 7 (Rogers) at least and didn't even keep serial number records of when these big changes were made!). The LS7 even had crossover changes as well as main driver alterations and nobody knew until service replacements were required.
wiicrackpot
01-11-2014, 18:38
@Dave~As always, your insight into these brilliant British designs past and present is much appreciated. :clap:
@Tony~The first time i listened to my Michael Hedges vinyl through the SHL5's were memorable, if you have any of his stuff, give it a spin. :wowzer:
@Dave~As always, your insight into these brilliant British designs past and present is much appreciated. :clap:
@Tony~The first time i listened to my Michael Hedges vinyl through the SHL5's were memorable, if you have any of his stuff, give it a spin. :wowzer:
Thanks Andy, I've not got any of his stuff but your welcome to come over and bring some with you for a listen:eek:
Well one of the critera I had for these speakers was for low level volume listening and right now they are bloody amazing:eek:
The clarity of sound is astonishing at low volume.
Tony
Martyn Miles
02-11-2014, 09:22
Well one of the critera I had for these speakers was for low level volume listening and right now they are bloody amazing:eek:
The clarity of sound is astonishing at low volume.
Tony
Yes. That is an aspect of the P3ESRs I hadn't known about until I had mine. The LS3/5as are pretty good too, also my old HL Monitors, but the 'ESRs are by far the best for low-level clarity.
Yes. That is an aspect of the P3ESRs I hadn't known about until I had mine. The LS3/5as are pretty good too, also my old HL Monitors, but the 'ESRs are by far the best for low-level clarity.
I was sitting on my own last night Martyn, when I made that post above, and purposely turned the volume right down to listen at low volume levels, the speakers sound fabulous at the time, really quiet in the house and outside it was raining and very dark so quite atmospheric and when I asked my wife if she heard the music (bedroom is right next door) she said she never heard a thing.
Going to try to do an AB comparison today with the JR 149s but I need to get a set of RCA female sockets to be able to switch speaker cable between the two sets of speakers (you wire the speakers on the JRs on the crossover).
Tony
Big thanks to Andy, wiicrackpot, for coming over today and bringing some fantastic choonz which were a superb selection of fine vinyl most of which I'd never heard before, he also brought a pair of 24" stands for the Harbeths which made a huge difference in terms of soundstaging, the music just opened up massively.
I unfortunately managed to feck up my valve phono stage before Andy arrived (lost trhe left channel) so we ended up having to play the vinyl through the amp's phono stage which is nothing to shout about but nevertherless we were able to hear the Harbeth's singing their heads off, suffice to say that both of was were hugely impressed with the music coming from the P3s.
When Andy left I had another look at the Firebottle phono amp and I could see that I had managed to sever one of the delicate thin wires going to the top output binding post and a quick repair with the soldering iron soon sorted the problem out and I've got the records playing through it right now, sounds fantastic I have to say.
Anyway I'll let Andy tell his side of the story wrt the Harbeths:cool:
Thanks
Tony
wiicrackpot
02-11-2014, 22:44
Hi Tony,
Hadn't realise you've posted about my wee jaunt to yours. :D
First thing that struck me was how tiny these baby Harbs are, when the tunes start, one word comes to mind......INCREDIBLE !!!
they just disappear and leave a wide and deep soundstage, pinpoint imaging and breathtaking transparency,
every nuance,instrument timbre and spatial cue was there in a balance soundscape, never lost when the going got busy,
when required, it had a speedy,snappy,punchy manner with toe tapping start/stop transients,
while the bass won't reach seismic proportions,what was there was very good and well proportioned, as i remember it,
my previous SHL5 had more bass but sounded slower and loose in comparison,quite surprised at the amount really for such a small cab,
last but not least the mids, aww...the mids were glorious,Carol Kidd made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end,
her honey coated voice with subtle inflections was to die for, really enjoyed being reacquainted with some Harbeth's,
they really are fabulous speakers with a listen all day quality, so happy for you Tony. :cool:
wii.
Hi Tony,
Hadn't realise you've posted about my wee jaunt to yours. :D
First thing that struck me was how tiny these baby Harbs are, when the tunes start, one word comes to mind......INCREDIBLE !!!
they just disappear and leave a wide and deep soundstage, pinpoint imaging and breathtaking transparency,
every nuance,instrument timbre and spatial cue was there in a balance soundscape, never lost when the going got busy,
when required, it had a speedy,snappy,punchy manner with toe tapping start/stop transients,
while the bass won't reach seismic proportions,what was there was very good and well proportioned, as i remember it,
my previous SHL5 had more bass but sounded slower and loose in comparison,quite surprised at the amount really for such a small cab,
last but not least the mids, aww...the mids were glorious,Carol Kidd made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end,
her honey coated voice with subtle inflections was to die for, really enjoyed being reacquainted with some Harbeth's,
they really are fabulous speakers with a listen all day quality, so happy for you Tony. :cool:
wii.
Hi Andy. thought your record selection was fantastic mate, so much so that I've already bought two of the LPs!
wiicrackpot
02-11-2014, 23:01
Hi Andy. thought your record selection was fantastic mate, so much so that I've already bought two of the LPs!
Tony, glad you like the few records i took with me, what i like is probably a fraction of what some illustrious members on here with greater knowledge and far bigger collection,so i wouldn't like to say what i've got or like is on a par,:o glad you've added to your collection.
interesting insight into the design process of the Harbeth speakers .. interview with Alan Shaw
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tested-harbeth-hlp-3es2-loudspeaker/
wiicrackpot
04-11-2014, 23:20
Thanks for the link Rupert, interesting read indeed, i was a bit animated with my summary of my encounter,
probably not the most balance opinion as i haven't heard any competitors, plus being a casual observer,
i was listening for sonic cues and specific aspects of the little wonder but Tony put me in the spot and i am such a Harbeth fanboy, :D
at the end of the day only Tony can consolidate what he has now to be a big improvement through living with and listening to them play music,
not effects as i seem to have done. :)
Tell you what these speakers are bleeding amazing!
Put shite in ye get shite out but put quality in you get wonderful choonz.
Tonight I put on Miles Davis Round About Midnight on vinyl (DMM) and there was some real weird distortion stuff going on so thought ' oh, here we go dodgy connection, phono stage playing up again, dirty stylus' then I put on KOB, a 1963 CBS stereo copy and it sounded fantastic, piano is to die for on that record then I put on Hugh Masekla's Hope, I'm curretly listening to the track Nomali and oh boy bleeding wonderful, the sound stage has opened right up from the left to the right way beyond the speakers and it is high too, instruments are isolated and on their own.
Obviously the first record is a pretty poor recording but I've never really noticed the weird distortion before.
Something else with these speakers and that is that they are excellent with digital music and specifically with internet radio as I rarely ever listen to CD now.
Tony
Tonight I put on Miles Davis Round About Midnight on vinyl (DMM) and there was some real weird distortion stuff going on so thought ' oh, here we go dodgy connection, phono stage playing up again, dirty stylus' then I put on KOB, a 1963 CBS stereo copy and it sounded fantastic, piano is to die for on that record.
Something else with these speakers and that is that they are excellent with digital music and specifically with internet radio
Hi Tony,
Just wanted to pass comment on these bits. I recently bought the mono recordings Miles Davis box set which inclide Round About Midnight. Ok, I own 7 of the 9 albums but it's only £23 and in a pretty box ! The sound quality is wonderful and worth a point to my mind.
On the internet radio through the Harbs you mention, I recently set up Beeb iplayer from a Tivo box via an optical cable into the DAC of my Quad CD-P2. I've not posted on the results but am stunned by the quality.
Sorry, a bit off topic I appreciate, but sort of in there ! I'll always join in on a P3ESR love in ;-)
Tonight I put on Miles Davis Round About Midnight on vinyl (DMM) and there was some real weird distortion stuff going on so thought ' oh, here we go dodgy connection, phono stage playing up again, dirty stylus' then I put on KOB, a 1963 CBS stereo copy and it sounded fantastic, piano is to die for on that record.
Something else with these speakers and that is that they are excellent with digital music and specifically with internet radio
Hi Tony,
Just wanted to pass comment on these bits. I recently bought the mono recordings Miles Davis box set which inclide Round About Midnight. Ok, I own 7 of the 9 albums but it's only £23 and in a pretty box ! The sound quality is wonderful and worth a point to my mind.
On the internet radio through the Harbs you mention, I recently set up Beeb iplayer from a Tivo box via an optical cable into the DAC of my Quad CD-P2. I've not posted on the results but am stunned by the quality.
Sorry, a bit off topic I appreciate, but sort of in there ! I'll always join in on a P3ESR love in ;-)
Hi Ian, there's nowt wrong with my copy of Round About Midnight, think it's a problem I have with the phono stage:(
I bought a Japan copy (King records) of Song For My Father which arrived today and stuck it on the TT and had the same distortion stuff going on so connected the TT to the integrated amp's phono stage and no distortion.
On a cheerier note the sound stage on that record and the Miles Davis record through both phono stages is way out beyond the speakers, it's a bit spooky at time since my room is quite narrow:eek:
Martyn Miles
24-02-2015, 19:31
Yes. That is an aspect of the P3ESRs I hadn't known about until I had mine. The LS3/5as are pretty good too, also my old HL Monitors, but the 'ESRs are by far the best for low-level clarity.
The HL Monitors have been sold and a pair of Spendor BC1s have returned.
The 'ESRs were sold to finance something else, so my superb LS3/5as are now running on my second system.
I now have expanded my little PA business ( MGM Audio ) and I'm now repairing and selling classic loudspeakers.
It is interesting that some old models have their merits, such as the Dynaco A25s and Acoustic Research AR7s.
Speakers do divide opinions so much...
Hi Tony,
Hadn't realise you've posted about my wee jaunt to yours. :D
First thing that struck me was how tiny these baby Harbs are, when the tunes start, one word comes to mind......INCREDIBLE !!!
they just disappear and leave a wide and deep soundstage, pinpoint imaging and breathtaking transparency,
every nuance,instrument timbre and spatial cue was there in a balance soundscape, never lost when the going got busy,
when required, it had a speedy,snappy,punchy manner with toe tapping start/stop transients,
while the bass won't reach seismic proportions,what was there was very good and well proportioned, as i remember it,
my previous SHL5 had more bass but sounded slower and loose in comparison,quite surprised at the amount really for such a small cab,
last but not least the mids, aww...the mids were glorious,Carol Kidd made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end,
her honey coated voice with subtle inflections was to die for, really enjoyed being reacquainted with some Harbeth's,
they really are fabulous speakers with a listen all day quality, so happy for you Tony. :cool:
wii.
Andy you are spot on regarding the baby Harbs, they can disappear like nothing else.:)
The Barbarian
24-02-2015, 21:07
Can't be reading thru 16 pages but :What's comparable to LS3/5a? well LS3/5a,v2. from Stirling broadcast
Martyn Miles
24-02-2015, 21:26
Can't be reading thru 16 pages but :What's comparable to LS3/5a? Well LS3/5a,v2. from Stirling broadcast
Some say...
The Barbarian
24-02-2015, 21:27
Prices of originals these days they have to be cheaper too.
walpurgis
24-02-2015, 21:47
Why did the LS3/5a and the later clones all have the main drive mounted from behind the baffle?
I always thought that was a 'no no', due to possible cavity colourations.
southall-1998
24-02-2015, 22:24
Stirling V2's are nice.
S.
spendorman
24-02-2015, 22:49
Why did the LS3/5a and the later clones all have the main drive mounted from behind the baffle?
I always thought that was a 'no no', due to possible cavity colourations.
Good question, I thought this when they first came out, but soon accepted that this was how they were done.
There is a PVC U shaped extrusion between the B110 chassis and the front baffle of the LS3/5a. I think this is supposed to damp the chassis.
If the KEF R101, CS1 and JR149 are considered clones, they have the B110 front mounted, but the KEF CS1a is rear mounted like the LS3/5a.
The Spendor BC1, Rogers Export Monitor and the LS3/6 also have the bass unit rear mounted on the baffle. I thought this strange many years ago.
walpurgis
24-02-2015, 23:05
Yes. I doubt it matters so much on speakers with larger baffle openings, but with small drivers on thick baffles there is a significant relative cavity depth. Given the likely opening width, I can picture cross reflections around the 1kHz region or higher.
spendorman
24-02-2015, 23:15
Yes. I doubt it matters so much on speakers with larger baffle openings, but with small drivers on thick baffles there is a significant relative cavity depth. Given the likely opening width, I can picture cross reflections around the 1kHz region or higher.
I have LS3/5a, CS1a and JR149, and I don't really notice any coloration due to the rear mounting used on the LS3/5a compared with the others.
walpurgis
24-02-2015, 23:33
I have LS3/5a, CS1a and JR149, and I don't really notice any coloration due to the rear mounting used on the LS3/5a compared with the others.
I have to admit, neither have I. Theory says it should be there.
Martyn Miles
25-02-2015, 07:27
Yes. I doubt it matters so much on speakers with larger baffle openings, but with small drivers on thick baffles there is a significant relative cavity depth. Given the likely opening width, I can picture cross reflections around the 1kHz region or higher.
Surely the LS3/5a designers knew what they were doing?
After all, they were trained audio engineers with scientific/mathematical backgrounds.
M Miles.
StanleyB
25-02-2015, 07:38
Surely the LS3/5a designers knew what they were doing?
After all, they were trained audio engineers with scientific/mathematical backgrounds.
M Miles.
Even with those qualifications and experience there is no guarantee that they would have been brilliant speakers designers.
Gordon Steadman
25-02-2015, 08:14
I have been listening almost exclusively to the computer system for the last few days. Quad34/306 and KEF R101s. The KEFS have the LS35A grilles and felt added.
Very musical indeed with astonishing bass given the size of cabinet. My aural memory isn't that great but I remember preferring the 101s when I head both speakers together. My organ tutor (now now) was trying to flog me his LS35As and I had just got my KEFs at a boot sale for £20. Sadly for him, he agreed with me when we compared them. They are better now with the two additions.
So it's the KEFs for me.
spendorman
25-02-2015, 12:33
Yes. I doubt it matters so much on speakers with larger baffle openings, but with small drivers on thick baffles there is a significant relative cavity depth. Given the likely opening width, I can picture cross reflections around the 1kHz region or higher.
Looking at the mounting of the B110 in the LS3/5a, the hole is near it's max diameter. The B110 has quite a wide surround, so the actual cone is a fair way from the edge of the hole. This may well reduce the cavity effect.
http://www.g4dcv.co.uk/ls35a/pics/Richard03.jpg
The Barbarian
25-02-2015, 12:43
If the KEF R101, CS1 and JR149 are considered clones, they have the B110 front mounted, but the KEF CS1a is rear mounted like the LS3/5a.
Nice little speaker the Ref 101, i particularly liked the S Stop overload protection..
Gordon Steadman
25-02-2015, 13:27
Nice little speaker the Ref 101, i particularly liked the S Stop overload protection..
I'd be interested to know its limits. Mine take the full output of the 306 without breaking sweat. I've never seen the little red light.
Even with those qualifications and experience there is no guarantee that they would have been brilliant speakers designers.
Good job they were though, wasn't it?
It may not be appreciated, but these engineers spent hours upon hours LISTENING to their designs as they were developed. Not just for nasties, colourations etc., but also to hours of music too. What they've left us with was perfect as best as possible at the time for the tasks they had to do. I bet they'd have given back teeth and other anatomical parts to have the technology and cheap far eastern parts available today, as I reckon it would have made their job so much easier.
Martyn Miles
25-02-2015, 17:19
Good job they were though, wasn't it?
It may not be appreciated, but these engineers spent hours upon hours LISTENING to their designs as they were developed. Not just for nasties, colourations etc., but also to hours of music too. What they've left us with was perfect as best as possible at the time for the tasks they had to do. I bet they'd have given back teeth and other anatomical parts to have the technology and cheap far eastern parts available today, as I reckon it would have made their job so much easier.
Well said...
This might be of interest: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1976-29.pdf
As Dave has said, the BBC team spent hundeds of man hours listening as the design developed. They are lovely little speakers, solely designed for near-field monitoring of music and speech in the BBC OB vans.
Since being spotted by the hi-fi fraternity, prices for used LS3/5As have rocketed and are at such stratospheric levels these days they cannot really be recommended anymore.
What does 'colouration' mean exactly guys?
Thanks
Tony
Firebottle
25-02-2015, 21:06
I'll chip in on this one, it's generally differences, particularly additions, to the signal put into the respective speaker.
Think of a speaker sounding 'boxy', or unwanted vibrations of the cabinet or baffle adding an unnatural sound to the signal coming from the speaker.
It can be resonances of internal components, or reflections from within the cabinet coming back through the cone of the speaker, etc.
One of the least 'coloured' types are electrostatics.
:cool: Alan
Martyn Miles
25-02-2015, 22:29
What does 'colouration' mean exactly guys?
Thanks
Tony
To be pedantic, it's coloration and comes from the world of optics
walpurgis
25-02-2015, 22:34
All speakers have colourations. It's just a question of degree. Alan has pointed out the common ones.
Some colourations are not unpleasant, for instance the 'warm' tone of some paper pulp speaker cones is colouration, but not necessarily offensive. Unlike the 'quacky' overtone you can get with plastic driver cones, which I have found unpleasant.
southall-1998
25-02-2015, 23:41
I really like ''inoffensive'' sounding speakers, If I'm being honest.
Enjoyed hearing a pair of Spendor S8 Speakers. Lovely smooth treble and rich bass....lovely!!
Any other fairly modern speakers with an inoffensive sound? :)
S.
walpurgis
25-02-2015, 23:55
What about 'in yer face' speakers, with an inoffensive amp? :)
Look at Cura speakers. Rare, but smooth and very decent. Not many about, people hang on to them.
A member here, I think it was stairpost, had a pair of those. (he got em on the wam I think)
southall-1998
26-02-2015, 00:14
What about 'in yer face' speakers, with an inoffensive amp? :)
Look at Cura speakers. Rare, but smooth and very decent. Not many about, people hang on to them.
You mean like those Usher's of yours! :)
S.
walpurgis
26-02-2015, 00:16
You mean like those Usher's of yours! :)
S.
Somehow it's a different sort of sound.
southall-1998
26-02-2015, 00:19
Somehow it's a different sort of sound.
They don't have a face :D
Too neutral for me !
S.
Audio Advent
26-02-2015, 03:16
Since being spotted by the hi-fi fraternity, prices for used LS3/5As have rocketed and are at such stratospheric levels these days they cannot really be recommended anymore.
I think it was something other than being spotted by the hifi fraterinty - they have been actively marketed to the hifi fraternity for decades. No-one paid too much attention to them until ebay came about, effectively, and therefore an influx of money from international trade from where they can't be found easily. Sudden globalisation of niche, local markets perhaps - sure there must be some boring economic study on such things.
Martyn Miles
26-02-2015, 08:25
All speakers have colourations. It's just a question of degree. Alan has pointed out the common ones.
Some colourations are not unpleasant, for instance the 'warm' tone of some paper pulp speaker cones is colouration, but not necessarily offensive. Unlike the 'quacky' overtone you can get with plastic driver cones, which I have found unpleasant.
Interestingly, plastic coated paper cones are a very good compromise.
I have an old pair of Goodmans Ministers which have Goodmans built bass/mid. drivers built using this process.
Linked up to soft dome Goodmans tweeters they are surprisingly good.
Like the Dynaco A25, the bass/mid. drivers are direct coupled and the crossover is a simple capacitor/inductor network.
M Miles.
Thanks for the replies guys.
Tony
I think it was something other than being spotted by the hifi fraterinty - they have been actively marketed to the hifi fraternity for decades. No-one paid too much attention to them until ebay came about, effectively, and therefore an influx of money from international trade from where they can't be found easily. Sudden globalisation of niche, local markets perhaps - sure there must be some boring economic study on such things.
Yes I would agree, the LS3/5As were readily available in the late 1970's. Rogers themselves advertised and promoted them for the "Hi-fi market", complete with a sub-woofer.
Would also agree that the coming of eBay has increased the availability and awareness of such niche products, and with it an absurd escalation of prices.
spendorman
26-02-2015, 15:55
It looks like they were destined for the domestic environment from the start:
https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6218/6309156096_623c03a432_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io)LS3-5 Popular Hi Fi June 1974 (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io) by A60man (https://www.flickr.com/people/41679262@N02/), on Flickr
It looks like they were destined for the domestic environment from the start:
https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6218/6309156096_623c03a432_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io)LS3-5 Popular Hi Fi June 1974 (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io) by A60man (https://www.flickr.com/people/41679262@N02/), on Flickr
OK the mid '70s, rather than the late '70s.
Gordon Steadman
26-02-2015, 16:43
It looks like they were destined for the domestic environment from the start:
https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6218/6309156096_623c03a432_s.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io)LS3-5 Popular Hi Fi June 1974 (https://flic.kr/p/aBw5io) by A60man (https://www.flickr.com/people/41679262@N02/), on Flickr
Judging by your pics on Flickr you should be called Quadman:lol:
spendorman
26-02-2015, 16:48
Judging by your pics on Flickr you should be called Quadman:lol:
Didn't you see the Leak's! I could be called Leakman!
Martyn Miles
27-02-2015, 05:34
Judging by your pics on Flickr you should be called Quadman:lol:
The LS3/5a was a BBC design, as we all know.
The audio consumer discovered it ( as I did ) as a very competent small loudspeaker priced somewhat above similar sized loudspeakers available at the time.
I understand the original manufacturers realised that there was a place in the market for a high quality small speaker.
M Miles.
westsounds
07-07-2020, 08:15
I still can't work out what the current fascination is with the LS3/5a and even less so why they appear to attract silly money on the secondhand market :scratch:
The fascination is still there! And so are the silly prices on the second hand market. Collectors value is a thing I understand but that aside they are completely overpriced. A good sounding speaker but nothing anyone else couldn't replicate and sell I'm sure for a fraction of the cost.
ProAc have jumped on the bandwagon again now with the Tablette 10, which is basically an LS3/5A rip off again. Yet ProAc prices are just getting higher and higher as well. Decent sounding speakers but lets not get carried away. ProAcs prices have always been a bit salty but people put up with it for a generally good speaker but things are getting out of hand now. But even their Tab or Signatures make genuine LS3/5A like the Falcon look cheap in comparison. The price of these tiny speakers should be outlawed as far as I'm concerned, people are just getting ripped off I feel.
The price of these tiny speakers should be outlawed as far as I'm concerned, people are just getting ripped off I feel.
I agree with you that these do indeed have a high price tag, though we have choices.
westsounds
07-07-2020, 16:47
I agree with you that these do indeed have a high price tag, though we have choices.
Trouble is there's not much of a choice out there when it comes to this speakers sound or 'comparable' speakers which sound near this good. Lot of small speakers are decent enough but there is something special about the way these do it and say the Harbeth P3ESRs and now the ProAc Tab 10s. But even those are overpriced imo. Just a lot of dosh for not a lot of speaker :(
matt2007
11-07-2020, 11:17
Kralk bc-30 are a good alternative and far cheaper on the used market
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