Croft Micro 25 with Quad 909?

[Bluedroog]

Morning gents,

Wanted to get your opinions on this pre-amp please. Or indeed views on either of the models above or below, the R and the basic but it's primarily the middle model I'm interested in. I'm looking to revamp my whole system over the next year of so and have considered pairing the Croft with a Quad 909, any thoughts on this particular combination? I heard the Quad a while back and was impressed in the context I heard it for the price. I've never heard a Croft before but find something quite charming about it and really want to like them.

I had previously discounted the Croft on account of no remote and the dual volume pots but think that by using the volume / remote on my primary source a Squeezebox Touch / Beresford Caiman I can bypass this worry - even if it would really annoy Glenn Croft!

So thoughts on the Croft as a stand alone unit and also thoughts on it paired with the Quad 909 please? I'm a little concerned the sound could be a bit 'soft' considering the Quad is known for it's full mid-range and the tubes of the pre-amp, or is that fear unfounded?

Many thanks for your thoughts.

[DSJR]

TOTALLY UNFOUNDED!!!!!!!!!

Just 'cos a product has tubes doesn't make for a soft-n-soggy sound you know. ALL the current Croft products I've had the extreme pleasure of listening to music through have been lively, engaging and basically NEUTRAL, but with that certain "something" that Glenn's designs have that makes for a classic product which the vast majority of owners revere for many MANY years...

As to the 909, there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with the design concept of this product. Unlike earlier Quads pre the 606, it shows a very healthy increase in power into 4 ohm loads (around 220WPC I believe) so will happily drive most things out there. It DOESN'T sound all nice-n-easy as you might think, but there's certainly no harshness or grain either in properly fettled ones, which brings me to the comments below...

The 909 has been made in China for some years now and there was concern on the Yahoo Quad group over the last couple of years that the manufacturers were downgrading the quality of the fitted capacitors in more current production, which increased distortion and noise and affected the sonics too. I can only point you there to do some research and to also look at the dada "Quad" blogspot. I believe evidence was submitted to back these claims and a cost effective update kit was also mooted - dada don't go in for boutique parts per se, so I don't think this was a case of imagining a problem and then marketing a "cure..."

A proper working and restored 606/707 and 909 is a classic amp of far greater ability and stature of an amp that you might think, but because they're plentiful and have been largely ignored by the audiophool fraternity, they don't cost a huge amount to buy. the mk1 606 did undergo some retro-fittable and beneficial tweaks to mk2 status I believe, but I understand the amp wasn't changed overmuch in future generations (I could be wrong, but I think that's basically it). The main thing after cap checking being bypassing or removal of the Quadlink circuit-board, which adds distortion apparently if it's not needed.

Sorry for the essay, but if you wish to use both items together, PLEASE DO SO and enjoy the results :lol:

[hifi_dave]

You can't go wrong with a Croft.

Why not go the whole hog and have a Croft pre and power ?

[Bluedroog]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Dave DSJR I did read something regarding the Chinese made later versions and the inferior capacitors, I'll certainly read up on the sites you suggested.

HiFi Dave - I'm certainly not against the Croft power amp (7?) but it doesn't excite me as much as the pre. I've quite fancied the 909 for a while. Also while I appreciate power is far from everything having lived with 50wpc for the past decade (Arcam Alpha 8) I've just had an urge (albeit rather childish) to try something with a bit more welly. I also like the idea of mixing brands and finding good results.

[julesd68]

A proper working and restored 606/707 and 909 is a classic amp of far greater ability and stature of an amp that you might think

Dave - what would be the "hierachy" of Quad power-amps? I am using a 405-2 and would be interested to know how that would fit into the scheme of things.

cheers.

[IHP]

If it helps I enjoy to box swap and the Croft Micro 25 is the one component I regret letting go. I've recently gone down the Croft power amp. route via a Series 7 and was so impressed I've ordered the 7R. The 7 was a bit of a show stopper for me.

I'll be demming. the 25 or 25R soon enough. Fortunately I have surplus gear to shift if I decide to go down this route. I may need another hobby !

[Macca]

I've had my Micro basic pre just over 2 years now. It has never failed to delight indeed sometimes I think it is unrealistically good. It is hard to imagine how anything could better it. Buy with confidence.

[Bluedroog]

I've had my Micro basic pre just over 2 years now. It has never failed to delight indeed sometimes I think it is unrealistically good. It is hard to imagine how anything could better it. Buy with confidence.


That speakers volumes, especially given the price of the basic version. It's hard to find pre-amps in that price range at all let alone with such high praise.

I think I'll go for the standard, I think in Croft Acoustics own words they consider it the 'sweet spot of the range' and offers the best value for money. I had considered the basic and I'm sure I'd be happy but I think I'll be making this pre-amp last for many years.

[julesd68]

I think I'll go for the standard, I think in Croft Acoustics own words they consider it the 'sweet spot of the range' and offers the best value for money. I had considered the basic and I'm sure I'd be happy but I think I'll be making this pre-amp last for many years.

Since you are in NW London I would just nip across to demo the Croft pre-amps at Audioflair near Brent Cross ... You might be able to get hold of one ex-demo.

[DSJR]

The Croft preamps all basically "sound" similar, the sonics growing in stature and overall ability as you) go up the range. The "R" version is more like my "PP" Series 4, so should have more "grunt" I think in extreme circumstances. Thing is, if you buy the middle version and would like it breathed on in the power supplies later, Glenn will do this for you - a good halfway house ans a win-win situation in my book :)

In regards to a Quad "hierarchy," any real and major difference in sonics are as much to do with the amp and speaker matching as anything else. The II's in fine fettle and the 303 can sound surprisingly similar in broad terms, the 303 being slightly more able IMO. The mk1 405 was strangled by its limiters, even into the ESL57's, but the mk2 went a long way towards dealing with this, the limiting only really coming in severely with 4 ohm loads IMO. I'm very fond of the 405-2 and remember the great times I had with mine. I could never get on with the 306 though, finding it just too "limp wristed" with any form of percussive music.

The thing is, ALL Quad's amps can be breathed on with modern components. Physically smaller supply caps for the 405 now mean that a dual-mono reservoir can be fitted into the 405 case, along with better op-amps and possibly tighter components for the dumping "bridge." The 606 design does have refinements over the 405, but in turn, these tweaks can be backwards fitted to further improve the 405-2 I think.

520F? never heard of it :D :gig: :cool:

[Bluedroog]

Since you are in NW London I would just nip across to demo the Croft pre-amps at Audioflair near Brent Cross ... You might be able to get hold of one ex-demo.



I actually just found myself on their website in the last hour or so, I noticed on the Croft website there wasn't a postcode so thought sods law it's down in Lewisham of something, clicked the 'where we are' and thought that group of roads looks rather distinctive and familiar, turns out it's not far from me at all, might even cycle up there when I've a bit of spare time as I'm only in Kensal Rise.

[julesd68]

The thing is, ALL Quad's amps can be breathed on with modern components. Physically smaller supply caps for the 405 now mean that a dual-mono reservoir can be fitted into the 405 case, along with better op-amps and possibly tighter components for the dumping "bridge." The 606 design does have refinements over the 405, but in turn, these tweaks can be backwards fitted to further improve the 405-2 I think.

Hope the OP doesn't mind me briefly hi-jacking the thread!

Dave - I am aware of an "upgrade kit" for the 405-2 and have been told that the dealer does a good job with it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Upgrade-your-Quad-405-405-2-405-II-Power-Amplifier-/170623756707?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item27b9f7e9a3

I didn't bother as I thought it would essentially change the character of the amp and make it something that it was not designed to be, even though they say of course that it retains the Quad character ... What do you think? Should I reconsider?

Cheers.

[julesd68]

I actually just found myself on their website in the last hour or so, I noticed on the Croft website there wasn't a postcode so thought sods law it's down in Lewisham of something, clicked the 'where we are' and thought that group of roads looks rather distinctive and familiar, turns out it's not far from me at all, might even cycle up there when I've a bit of spare time as I'm only in Kensal Rise.

Go for it - no hard-sell there, only good advice. Just give a Adrian a call first to book a demo.

[Bluedroog]

Go for it - no hard-sell there, only good advice. Just give a Adrian a call first to book a demo.



I couldn't quite work out the set-up from his website, sounds like it's just him. Is there actually a store of does he run a business from his home or something? I think I'll wait till I've got the Quad in place first and the cash for the Croft ready to spend A.) because I don't want to mess around, if I like what I hear I can buy it B.) I can take the Quad along and see how they sound together and C.) if it sounds too good it could be a long wait till I've funds in place!

I was listening to my setup last night and to be fair it's served me very well but just sounded a bit crude. I should probably be looking to changed my speakers first but the ones I'm interested in are out of reach for the moment, I can get the Quad and Croft one at a time with less impact on my pocket but I've got an idea of where I want my system to go. Also I'm at that age where first kids look to be on the horizon and really want to get a few upgrades out of my system before there's no chance!

[julesd68]

Adrian runs the business from home.

I must admit I had to wait till my son was 5 or 6 before I did some serious upgrading, so there is no time like the present!

[bennyboyph]

There seems to be quite the Quad following on here!

I'm currently building a B4 buffer amp, so would be interested to hear how it sounds with a Quad 909.

What can I expect in terms of sonic signature when compared to my Naim system?

[hifi_dave]

The Naim will be a lot more exciting and involving.

[DSJR]

The Naim will be a lot more exciting and involving.


I daren't argue, as I have a long term important friendship to consider :lol:

Much of Naim's output is UK made still, rather than being in the far east, and that counts for something, especially to their employees in Salisbury, at least for now...

[Bluedroog]

There seems to be quite the Quad following on here!

I'm currently building a B4 buffer amp, so would be interested to hear how it sounds with a Quad 909.

What can I expect in terms of sonic signature when compared to my Naim system?

And what about the Naim to the Croft 7 power amp? And indeed the Croft to the Quad? Am I being foolish to look to the Quad for the power side of things and disregarding the Croft?

[DSJR]

Naim pre's, will happily drive any reasonable power amp out there with no oscillation or other nasties. Of course, old ones with mother-daughter boards can be substantially breathed on to great effect and I suspect it's this, as much as anything else, which is keeping residuals high.

Naim power amps really shouldn't be used with wide-band modern preamps, although I'm sure it's been safely done. Not recommended for long-term reliability though methinks..

Croft preamps work with any modern power amp and, despite using valves, have a bang up to date spec to go with their fine sound. The Series 7 ain't no slouch either if the speaker load isn't stupidly low - HFN did a favourable review last year.

To conclude with little to no egg on my face, a Series 7 with 25 preamp would be a truly excellent amp "system" and is UK made by the man himslef as well - and easy to service in decades to come too. A Quad 909 will not now be UK made qalthough very early ones were I believe.

[Reid Malenfant]

Naim power amps really shouldn't be used with wide-band modern preamps, although I'm sure it's been safely done. Not recommended for long-term reliability though methinks..
Hi Dave, are you saying that there is no low pass filter on the input of Naim power amps, or even certain models of Naim power amps?

If so that's bloody stupid :rolleyes:

[DSJR]

The basic circuit is there on the Avondale site in the NCC200 board, which has updated output devices and a carefully chosen Zobel network to maintain stability - I don't think the input is very different. I think the raw circuit as used by Naim could be on the Acoustica site too.

[Reid Malenfant]

Should be fine having looked, it does have a low pass filter on the input? :scratch: But if as you say there is no zobel network on the output stage of some models then yes, I can see things getting a bit unpredictable with above audio frequency input..

[DSJR]

So why do the preamps have the filtering then - to stop slew-rate limiting on the power amps according to old literature.

[Reid Malenfant]

Every component should have in reality :) It'd also be great if it was well above the limit of our hearing to ;)

There is little point in just having a low pass filter on a pre amp when the power amp it may well naturally be partnered with has a different pre amp connected to it :doh:

We do mix & match after all... Some manufacturers need a good kick up the proverbials for being so naive :eyebrows:

[Bluedroog]

So the Quad 909 has been ordered, got a pretty good deal so look forward to that. I'll use my Caiman as a pre-amp for the time being and hopefully add the Croft Micro 25 in around March. I'll let you all know how I get on with the combo, although I don't think my speakers will reveal everything, my B&W 602's will let the side down a little but that upgrade is for another time.

[DSJR]

602's are GOOD, funky boxes of the old-school beefy-bass. Nowt wrong with them at all and they should happily tell you what's going on. Have you looked at the Quad Revision Blogspot site for suggestions on future fettling of the 909 once the warranty has expired. that should be the last product you'll ever need to change IMO - uodate certainly, but not replace :)

[Macca]

602's are GOOD, funky boxes of the old-school beefy-bass. Nowt wrong with them at all and they should happily tell you what's going on. )

+1 bloody good 'speakers better than the next model up IIRC

[Bluedroog]

Don't get me wrong, I really do like the 602's but they are still a legacy of my 'old system' which I'm in the process of upgrading all round. The good points for them remain good; they have good bass and a 'nice' warm sound. They've served me well for a decade and although I'm sure the amp upgrade will show them at close to their best there are areas where I now find myself wanting more. Specifically I'm looking for that bit more detail and sparkle, better separation of instruments and generally a more refined sound, not to mention a better finish. The vinyl wrap looked ok when they were new, it was also the 90's and I was a lot younger but now a more sophisticated real wood or high gloss finish is what I'm after. Really looking at the new PMC Twenty 22's or TB2is at the end of next year.

I want to get the rest of my system up to scratch first, the Quad and Croft will replace an Arcam Alpha 8 integrated.

[Bluedroog]

+1 bloody good 'speakers better than the next model up IIRC



Perhaps there is an issue elsewhere in my system in that case. I've assumed I'd almost got 'too used' to them and they no longer did it for me. I've found them sounding a little crude recently, a slight hiss and not quite the detail. Maybe my speaker cables have oxidized, a connection is not quite flush or something else. My source is a Squeezebox Touch playing FLAC files via a Caiman. Worth looking into having read your comments on the speakers. After all when I bought them I didn't buy based on reviews like many do, I purely listened over and over against about 15 others speakers, slowly narrowed it down to two (against a pair of Kefs if memory serves me) and the B&W's came out on top in a A/B on account of sounding 'less boxed in'.

Still regardless I think some PMC's will there at some point as I really enjoy the detail, the larger stand mounts also match the B&W's scale but with everything else I'm looking for.

[Macca]

Don't get me wrong they are a beer-budget speaker at the end of the day and PMC are a lot more upmarket and a different ballgame alltogether but as Dave says the 602 is good enough that you should still clearly hear the benefits of any upgrades you make upstream of the speakers. I had the originals with the much criticised tweeters, they were too small for my new listening room when I moved houses that's why I got rid of them.

[Audioman]

Quad are shortly upgrading the 909 to a new model. I have seen pictures which suggest there are major component changes especialy a bigger power supply. However a little research has put me off touching late output 909's. It appears the factory have messed up the sound by changing components.

http://quadrevisionspot.blogspot.com/2010/08/improving-new-quad-909.html

Stan Curtis who designed it confirms that changing any component in his designs will alter the intended sound which he claims was originaly far superior to earlier incarnations. From this it looks as if any of these late 909's will benefit from a number of component changes but I would have thought Stan's design or an early UK sample to compare is needed to replicate the intended presentation.

[hifi_dave]

Crying shame.

Peter Walker must be laughing his socks off, somehwere up there.

[Bluedroog]

However a little research has put me off touching late output 909's. It appears the factory have messed up the sound by changing components........From this it looks as if any of these late 909's will benefit from a number of component changes but I would have thought Stan's design or an early UK sample to compare is needed to replicate the intended presentation.

When you say 'late outputs' are you refering to the latest current incarnation of 909's currently selling their last few in stores now, the one I have ordered?

I have read several times that some with Chinese capacitors are not as good as the older ones but it's not been enough to put me off, especially at the £600 I managed to find a new one for.

[esperowl]

I too recently purchased a new 909 for £600. Only later did I realise that there was an issue regarding the later units. I checked my serial no. and it seems to be an earlier unit (serial no. is below 0700). Apparently the earlier units used BHC Aerovox capacitors and later units used chinese-made CapXon capacitors. I can't find a serial no. 'cut-off' point to indicate when the CapXon replaced the BHC - I'll check with Quad.
BTW - I'd be grateful if anyone could recommend a fettler for the 909? I'm in the Northwest.

[Audioman]

When you say 'late outputs' are you refering to the latest current incarnation of 909's currently selling their last few in stores now, the one I have ordered?

I have read several times that some with Chinese capacitors are not as good as the older ones but it's not been enough to put me off, especially at the £600 I managed to find a new one for.

Follow the link in my previous post. It appears these moders in Antwerp modded one of the new ones about a year ago. It appears it may be a lot more than the BHC Aerovox that have changed. Stan Curtis's reply to the blog suggests that a few changes would be necessary to optimise performance. At £600 it is worth investing in the suggested mods. Bear in mind the amp as it is has had good reviews. Just it appears it could be a lot better and likely does not sound as Stan Curtis designed it.

I think it might be less hassle to get the new model depending on the new pricing from IAG. It has been totaly revised by a British designer as I think IAG are trying to up their game. However I understand rising costs in China and better components are likely to result in big price hikes as is the case with the new Audiolab models.

[Bluedroog]

Thought I would resurrect this thread now I’ve got the Quad 909 in place, first impressions are good; a slightly more forward sound to that of my Arcam which I like and I can really feel the extra power is there, although I’ve barley called upon it as yet. It does though have an extra sense of authority over my previous amp.

Given I’ve only every used integrated amps in the past I would like the opinions of those with more box swapping experience with pre / power set ups on what they think next introducing the Croft Micro 25 will bring to the party?

I am using a Caiman as a pre-amp at the moment and don’t really have much to compare to, I’ve no idea how much this is holding the set up back given it’s not primarily a pre-amp. Perhaps ‘holding back’ is unfair and I should phrase that ‘how much further forward good a dedicated pre-amp such as the croft take things forward’? Would it be subtle or night and day?

In what areas am I going to feel the benefits of introducing the Croft and how much I guess is the short version of my question?

As always thanks for your valued time and views.

[jon1]

Thought I would resurrect this thread now I’ve got the Quad 909 in place, first impressions are good; a slightly more forward sound to that of my Arcam which I like and I can really feel the extra power is there, although I’ve barley called upon it as yet. It does though have an extra sense of authority over my previous amp.

Given I’ve only every used integrated amps in the past I would like the opinions of those with more box swapping experience with pre / power set ups on what they think next introducing the Croft Micro 25 will bring to the party?

I am using a Caiman as a pre-amp at the moment and don’t really have much to compare to, I’ve no idea how much this is holding the set up back given it’s not primarily a pre-amp. Perhaps ‘holding back’ is unfair and I should phrase that ‘how much further forward good a dedicated pre-amp such as the croft take things forward’? Would it be subtle or night and day?

In what areas am I going to feel the benefits of introducing the Croft and how much I guess is the short version of my question?

As always thanks for your valued time and views.






You should fell the benefits in all areas..after all it is a dedicated pre amp as you say..built by glenn 27 years in the business so i think he knows a thing or two about pre amps;)


jon

[DSJR]

It's not just how long Glenn's been in the business, just that on the one occasion I tried it, a Caiman sounded better with a Series 25 between it and the power amp. Hopefully, Alex_UK can back me up, as it was his Caiman.

[Val33]

I have both a Caiman and a Croft Basic.

My Caiman has the 'passive mod' fitted.

I find that the Croft is pretty transparent but on balance I prefer the Caiman direct in to my Leaks. I now only use the Croft for the phono stage.

HTH

Val

[DSJR]

As I understand it, the passive mod needs different cap values depending on the load it sees?

The Micro basic is a fine value preamp, but it's not really a micro 25 on the cheap. I've compared the two and despite obvious similarities, the Micro 25 IS better.

[jon1]

It's not just how long Glenn's been in the business, just that on the one occasion I tried it, a Caiman sounded better with a Series 25 between it and the power amp. Hopefully, Alex_UK can back me up, as it was his Caiman.


dave are we talking about the basic 25 here?



jon

[DSJR]

I'm talking about the "proper" Micro 25 at £750 or so, not the Micro Basic, which is £400. Glenn would advise on what is different between the two and if the Basic can be upgraded to the 25 spec economically.

[Bluedroog]

I have both a Caiman and a Croft Basic.

My Caiman has the 'passive mod' fitted.

I find that the Croft is pretty transparent but on balance I prefer the Caiman direct in to my Leaks. I now only use the Croft for the phono stage.

HTH

Val



I'm very surprised to hear that Val but given you've first hand experience of both I do take your findings seriously. Although I do note you say 'prefer' as apposed to 'better'. Even so this has left me a little confused, I had expected the improvement to be obvious but clearly that isn't the case for everyone. I suppose the context of different systems has to be taken in to account.

It's clear most people think it will be an improvement but Val is an owner of both and has thrown at cat among the pigeons! I only really use a Squeezebox Touch these days so have been left wondering. Of course I'll listen for myself before choosing but given budget wise I'm in no position to buy until Feb / March I like to play these things out in my mind to keep me happy. Maybe I should go for the basic? Decisions, decisions.

[wee tee cee]

Christian,
Why dont you try the fixed line output of the caiman and control the volume with the touch and see if it sounds better taking the pre amp section out of the equation. I run power amps without a pre just using the lap top volume control to great effect.Strikes me you are adding a pre and interconnect you dont need if you're only using the touch.
Regards Tony

[Bluedroog]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for that, not a bad idea and makes perfect sense. I'm not running the Touch at 100% anyway since I like to use the volume control on it's remote so I've nothing to lose and it's a two 2 minute job.

I'm not sure what to do in the long run though in terms of having the convenience of a remote but with the best sound. I plan to get a high quality DAC with remote at some point but that will be my last upgrade of the current crop. Getting up to fiddle with the Crofts dual volume pot doesn't appeal so I'll leave them be and use volume else where. I have heard it's best to by-pass the Touches volume and set to 100% to get a bit perfect signal, with that in mind and not wanting to sue the Croft volume would then using a DAC with remote volume give me the best compromise?

[Val33]

I'm very surprised to hear that Val but given you've first hand experience of both I do take your findings seriously. Although I do note you say 'prefer' as apposed to 'better'. Even so this has left me a little confused, I had expected the improvement to be obvious but clearly that isn't the case for everyone. I suppose the context of different systems has to be taken in to account.

It's clear most people think it will be an improvement but Val is an owner of both and has thrown at cat among the pigeons! I only really use a Squeezebox Touch these days so have been left wondering. Of course I'll listen for myself before choosing but given budget wise I'm in no position to buy until Feb / March I like to play these things out in my mind to keep me happy. Maybe I should go for the basic? Decisions, decisions.

Yeah, sorry for that :)

I have to say in defence of the croft, the Leaks have a very sensitive input. I did try reducing the gain of the Leaks, but it did not help. My Croft is the basic, however, I understand that this is essentially the same circuit as the std, just with lower spec parts and cheaper power supply. I have tried it with both the standard 4x gain and also with unity gain (just the feedback resistor to change).

I do like the Croft when used with my turntable, just not with the Caiman.

I would suggest that you really need to audition it before buying.

Val

[DSJR]

At least you've tried it and many thanks for the comments :)

If Stan is using a croft to bench/home-test his products now, the DAC future may be different?

[Bluedroog]

I've noticed a slight ambient hiss with my new set-up, any ideas? It's cleary 'there', too much to ignore, could this be lack of a pre-amp? Cable / mains wise nothing has changed, all I did was swap my new Quad for my old Arcam.

[kininigin]

In what areas am I going to feel the benefits of introducing the Croft and how much I guess is the short version of my question?

As always thanks for your valued time and views.

Hi Christian,

I have used a Beresford TC-75020,Micro 25 Basic and a Micro 25,which im currently using to drive my actives.

I started using the beresford as a pre,and was perfectly happy with the sound,but never hearing a valve amp and wanting to get a turntable,i decided to get a micro 25 basic.

In my system there was a big difference,there was a greater sense of a 3d soundstage (the beresford was rather flat in comparison) greater coherance from bass-mids-highs.Solid and transparent with a valvey fluidity and warmth to it,but not pipe and slippers type sound(as i've heard valves being called,you can not put this amp in that box).

As soon as i heard this amp i thought,this is a keeper.After a slight mix up with my order (there was no phono stage) i was offered a micro 25,at a price i couldn't say no to.

Now when i put the micro 25 in,it was clear that it was different,but not immediatly clear it was better.The ''valvey fluidty and warmth'' in the basic was not as 'obvious' so in my limited experience thought i took a step backwards(valves are meant to be warm liquidy things ,right?)After a few days getting used to it,it dawned on me that the croft didn't really get in the way of the music,you just listened to the music without 'analyzing' it.

This is what makes the micro 25 such a great amp,to me anyway,it's just musical,as is the basic,but the latter,imo 'advertises' itself more,if you know what i mean (am i talking bollocks now :scratch:?)

Anyway that's my experience,and can reccommend the basic 25 or 25,over the beresford,good as it is,imo doesn't compare with the crofts.

[TBL]

It DOESN'T sound all nice-n-easy as you might think, but there's certainly no harshness or grain either in properly fettled ones



I often see this phrase and have never quite understood what it means. So for me and maybe other less knowledgeable people can you please explain what you mean by "a properly fettled quad 909"

I've usually seen this phrase in conjunction with TT/arm/cart and I've assumed this to mean a properly set up unit VTA etc. But an amplifier, surely all there is to do is plug it in or am I missing something.

[DSJR]

You're quite right, but having been a member of the Yahoo Quad user group and having read of the 909 capacitor-quality issues, which affect distortion and noise, making it sound worse too, I feel I'm ok with saying "fettled 909" as meaning a 909 with properly rated components inside and performing to spec, which I understand some recent examples definitely weren't. It's all in the forum there and you'll see a bleed over into the Dada blogspot (Dada don't make a fortune out of supplying components and if you register, all their schematics, update docs and manuals are available for free) which goes into the tests they carried out.

A 606/707/909 performing to spec is a lovely and not pricey power amplifier with a lot of the positive things people love about good valves IMO - very little to no grain, a bass that "breathes" yet power enough for 4 ohm loads (220WPC) without it getting breathless as the 405 series and 303 can and still do... AND NO HARSHNESS either :)

P.S.

http://quadrevisionspot.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to August 8th 2010 and you may get some useful info as to what I'm going on about...

[Elephantears]

I can't comment on the Quad issue but I've heard most of the current Croft Pre-amps recently. I bought a Micro 25, then I heard the 25R and the new 2-box pre at Adrian Parsons's place (AudioFlair). He also kindly leant me a prototype of the 2-box. I found this quite stunning; the way it resolved tonal colour was beyond most things I've heard before. The Micro 25 is really good, the 25R is more controlled, cleaner, even more revealing of tone colour, then the 2 box is just extraordinary. They really are true steps up which just reveal more of the same character - a totally organic and convincing progression. I also really like the fact that Glenn offers modular upgrades, so you can just simply pay the difference to get upgraded to the higher model.

However I never quite found the ideal power-amp. I really like the Series 5, but its not quite powerful for my Harbeths. The 7 was a little full on for me, but I never tried it with the regulated pre, which might have controlled it better.

Regarding the capacity to mix with other power amps, I've tried mix and matching with Naim (202/200) and with Unison Research (Pre/DM), in all sorts of combinations. None of these really worked. I could expand further another time, but I'm very interested to hear any more opinions about power amps that work well with Croft pre's. I need a bit of juice for 86db speakers. Can the Croft pre's work well with SS power?

[IHP]

I can't comment on the Quad issue but I've heard most of the current Croft Pre-amps recently. I bought a Micro 25, then I heard the 25R and the new 2-box pre at Adrian Parsons's place (AudioFlair). He also kindly leant me a prototype of the 2-box. I found this quite stunning; the way it resolved tonal colour was beyond most things I've heard before. The Micro 25 is really good, the 25R is more controlled, cleaner, even more revealing of tone colour, then the 2 box is just extraordinary. They really are true steps up which just reveal more of the same character - a totally organic and convincing progression. I also really like the fact that Glenn offers modular upgrades, so you can just simply pay the difference to get upgraded to the higher model.

However I never quite found the ideal power-amp. I really like the Series 5, but its not quite powerful for my Harbeths. The 7 was a little full on for me, but I never tried it with the regulated pre, which might have controlled it better.


Regarding the capacity to mix with other power amps, I've tried mix and matching with Naim (202/200) and with Unison Research (Pre/DM), in all sorts of combinations. None of these really worked. I could expand further another time, but I'm very interested to hear any more opinions about power amps that work well with Croft pre's. I need a bit of juice for 86db speakers. Can the Croft pre's work well with SS power?

For what it's worth Andrew I find the Micro 25 works wonderfully well with a Leak 20 and Radford STA15. I know what you mean in 'full on' to describe the Series 7, I owned one for a while and loved it's presentation. I would love to try the 25R but this won't be happening for a while. I'm yet to try the Micro 25 with ss amplification. Soon enough.....

[Elephantears]

For what it's worth Andrew I find the Micro 25 works wonderfully well with a Leak 20 and Radford STA15. I know what you mean in 'full on' to describe the Series 7, I owned one for a while and loved it's presentation. I would love to try the 25R but this won't be happening for a while. I'm yet to try the Micro 25 with ss amplification. Soon enough.....

I guess you're holding on to that Micro 25 then Ian. I know I'm going to regret selling it back to you! With the Series 7 I just found it got a bit congested sometimes, since it was so dynamic and full bodied at the same time, like a valve amp Naim might have designed.

[IHP]

I guess you're holding on to that Micro 25 then Ian. I know I'm going to regret selling it back to you! With the Series 7 I just found it got a bit congested sometimes, since it was so dynamic and full bodied at the same time, like a valve amp Naim might have designed.

If it makes you feel any better Andrew, I'm very grateful you let me have it back, it was one box I let go that I regretted. I'd very much like to try it with a 7 when funds permit.

[Bluedroog]

Interesting you don't see Crofts come up that often on the used market and when they do there seems to be a universal sense of regret. Really can't wait to try the 25 out with my Quad, the combination of a valve pre and plenty of SS power is one I'm hoping will be the kind of sound I'm looking for.

[DSJR]

Controlling and driving harbeths isn't just about Watts Per Channel, but damping factor as well I feel... I heard an old classic Pro SS amp driving 40.1's and SHL5's last week and, although not the last word in subtlely, my Gawd it grabbed those bass cones and pumped it out in a most un-harbeth like way :)

For new gear, one pair of power amps I heard recently (at HiFi dave's admittedly, but there are dealers up-north selling them) were the rather lovely Albarry's. They're really rather excellent with a current Croft preamp driving them (still don't "get" the matching preamp I'm afraid...), offering control, "power" despite being rated quite low, and a sense of finesse that the excellent-value Croft hybrids don't quite have in comparison

By the way, eBay has some once rather lovely and naughty Krell power amps for not much money in these circles. There's a KSA80B for £1300 or so (80WPC and will drive anything, even 1 ohm Apogees) and an even more wonderful and naughty FPB300 for just over £3K, which is a huge saving over the £10K it cost new...

[Elephantears]

For new gear, one pair of power amps I heard recently (at HiFi dave's admittedly, but there are dealers up-north selling them) were the rather lovely Albarry's. They're really rather excellent with a current Croft preamp driving them (still don't "get" the matching preamp I'm afraid...), offering control, "power" despite being rated quite low, and a sense of finesse that the excellent-value Croft hybrids don't quite have in comparison



Very intriguing, these new Albarry's, to a Harbethian, but are you saying that they work better with a Croft pre? I spoke to one dealer who was sincerely raving about the Albarry pre.

What you're saying does whet my appetite more, Dave, because it was precisely a bit more finesse and control I wanted with the new Croft power amps (and I agree they are great value).

[jon1]

I can't comment on the Quad issue but I've heard most of the current Croft Pre-amps recently. I bought a Micro 25, then I heard the 25R and the new 2-box pre at Adrian Parsons's place (AudioFlair). He also kindly leant me a prototype of the 2-box. I found this quite stunning; the way it resolved tonal colour was beyond most things I've heard before. The Micro 25 is really good, the 25R is more controlled, cleaner, even more revealing of tone colour, then the 2 box is just extraordinary. They really are true steps up which just reveal more of the same character - a totally organic and convincing progression. I also really like the fact that Glenn offers modular upgrades, so you can just simply pay the difference to get upgraded to the higher model.

However I never quite found the ideal power-amp. I really like the Series 5, but its not quite powerful for my Harbeths. The 7 was a little full on for me, but I never tried it with the regulated pre, which might have controlled it better.

Regarding the capacity to mix with other power amps, I've tried mix and matching with Naim (202/200) and with Unison Research (Pre/DM), in all sorts of combinations. None of these really worked. I could expand further another time, but I'm very interested to hear any more opinions about power amps that work well with Croft pre's. I need a bit of juice for 86db speakers. Can the Croft pre's work well with SS power?

Andrew i have the 7r monoblocs they are only 30 watts per ch and my speakers are 86db so their is plenty of grunt:eyebrows:



jon

[DSJR]

Very intriguing, these new Albarry's, to a Harbethian, but are you saying that they work better with a Croft pre? I spoke to one dealer who was sincerely raving about the Albarry pre.

What you're saying does whet my appetite more, Dave, because it was precisely a bit more finesse and control I wanted with the new Croft power amps (and I agree they are great value).

This is purely my opinion, although I think Alex_UK will back me up as we were both at the same session, but the Albarry preamp just sounded too restrained and tightly damped for me. I cannot for the life of me explain why this should be so in a "high fidelity" line amp stage, but using the Albarry mono's and switching to a Series 25R just seemed to let the music "swing" more, the whole sort-of being greater than the sum of the parts. Due to a banned member constantly looking over my shoulder and carping about me on his own site for shilling my mates, I don't feel minded to speak of my escapades with some of this gear any more, but, using SHL5's, I guarantee that the Albarry's with a 25R preamp will bring a grateful smile to your face, it's that good IMO. As for me these days, I'll just use a Crown DC300A instead and pretend I still have hair :D

[Alex_UK]

This is purely my opinion, although I think Alex_UK will back me up as we were both at the same session, but the Albarry preamp just sounded too restrained and tightly damped for me.

Sorry Dave, I genuinely can't remember how the Albarry Pre sounded - I do know the Albarry Monos sounded great with the Croft, but your audio memory is far better than mine! (Not to mention ears, and I'm usually like a rabbit in headlights once all the boxes start flying and the combinations swapped!) Won't argue with you on the hair though! ;)

[Elephantears]

Andrew i have the 7r monoblocs they are only 30 watts per ch and my speakers are 86db so their is plenty of grunt:eyebrows:



jon

Monoblocks? Croft? I'm confused.

With the Croft 7 I felt it certainly had lots of grunt but was overwhelming in my room, and too thickly textured when there were multiple layers. It might not have been agreeing with my sources though.

ADDENDUM: ok, I just saw the 'A few new Croft bits' thread - I'd no idea about the monoblocks. Out of my price range unfortunately, but if they are as good as the two box pre that would be incredible.

[jon1]

Monoblocks? Croft? I'm confused.

With the Croft 7 I felt it certainly had lots of grunt but was overwhelming in my room, and too thickly textured when their were multiple layers. It might not have been agreeing with my sources though.

ADDENDUM: ok, I just saw the 'A few new Croft bits' thread - I'd no idea about the monoblocks. Out of my price range unfortunately, but if they are as good as the two box pre that would be incredible.






Yes they are:eyebrows: as for the two box pre say no more;)


jon

[basnas]

Hi Jon
Any picture of the Croft series 7 mono's. From indside.
Do yours use a 12bh7a valve?

best jan

[jon1]

Hi Jon
Any picture of the Croft series 7 mono's. From indside.
Do yours use a 12bh7a valve?

best jan





Jan best email glenn;)



jon