SME M2-12R vs Ortofon RS-309D for Denon DL-103PRO

[Pani]

Hello Artists,
I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I have been visiting this forum just as a reader in the past two weeks.

Actually, I am on the verge of buying my first ever Turntable. I have shortlisted the Platine Verdier and the Nouvelle Verdier. The Platine is 60% more expensive than Nouvell so I am still evaluating whether it is worth spending the extra money on the Platine.

In the meantime, I am identifying the tonearm and cartridge combination to go with either of these TTs. After listening to a DL-103 and visiting this forum few times over I am sure my first cartridge will be a 103 variant. I was thinking of 103R but looks like you guys are very impressed with 103PRO. So, I will be placing an order for the 103PRO within 1-2 days.

Coming over to tonearm, here it is not easy. The classic combination with Verdier is SME 3012 + DL103 and I can buy a 3012 for about USD 1000.
But I have some other options, I am being offered a slightly used Ortofon RS-309D for about USD 1500. Then there is the SME M2-12R which can be bought for USD 2k. Since you guys are lot more experienced with DL-103, could you please guide me with which tonearm will suit best the DL-103PRO ?

1. SME 3012
2. SME M2-12R
3. Ortofon RS-309D

Since Ortofon RS-309D is the top of the line Ortofon tonearm, I am wondering if the SME M2 can be as good :rolleyes:

Thanks everyone. I am an Indian living in Singapore.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Pani,
I know that what you posted above serves as a kind of introduction to yourself, but would you mind going over to the Welcome section to tell us a bit about yourself, system & musical taste - this is the best way of getting a warm welcome from the community.
Thanks

[DSJR]

Welcome...

Both SME and especially Ortofon want their pound of flesh from their punters IMO, but at least with SME, you have a wonderfully finished product which will hold its value for decades to come. The "M" series lacks the "cachet" of the 312 for example and the antique-collector value of the 3012, but it may just be that the M2-12 is the best performing of all of them..

I wonder just how much better (apart from styling and the Ortofon logo on it) the Ortofon arm is over the sibling Jelco 750 in 12" form? I bet it ain't much, although the Jelco lacks extreme distributer and dealer profit margins. get my drift???????

I'm a penny-pincher these days, and these things matter to me. You may not be stifled that way, in which case, go with your heart :)

[Barry]

I don't think I could have put it any better than Dave.

I have a couple of Denon DL-103 cartridges. One of which is mounted in an SME S2-R heavy duty headshell with additional lead weight and this is used in either an SME 3009/II or 3012 arm. I have not tried it, as yet, in an SME 3009/II (improved) arm I also own.

The second is mounted in an EMT-G headshell, and used in an EMT 929 arm on an EMT 930 turntable.

I cannot say if I have noticed much difference between the two configurations. If it was me, I would go for the SME M2-12.

Regards

[alfie2902]

What about a Jelco SA-750L-12" tonearm with an Ortofon SPU Classic GM or GME on the Platine Verdier?

The SPU will give you more than the DL-103 even on the slightly cheaper arm.

[Pani]

What about a Jelco SA-750L-12" tonearm with an Ortofon SPU Classic GM or GME on the Platine Verdier?

The SPU will give you more than the DL-103 even on the slightly cheaper arm.

I have never heard an Ortofon SPU so I am not confident. I have heard the DL103 so it feels like a safe buy especially the PRO version.

[Yiangos]

Hello Pani

IMHO,the 3012 is a much better arm than the M model although it doeasn't have that "retro" look that goes hand-to-hand with the Verdier turntables.On the other hand,
you could go for the less expensive verdier model and get a v-12 arm which is MUCH better than everything you quoted.Then again,the Ortofon arm may lack the bass weight and the analytic properties of the sme arms but it is "warmer" and much "sweeter"
sounding than the smes.You choose :)

[DSJR]

Hello Pani

IMHO,the 3012 is a much better arm than the M model )

Please may I ask how you came to that decision? In layman's opinion, the pre "R" 3012 has an inferior headshell coupling (even if "everyone" uses it), the arm tube isn't as substantial? and the knife edge vertical bearings are controversial, even if they're well gravity loaded on the 12" version - I'm not having a dig, but these things are what the m2 series purports to improve on I think. It seems that there is some resistance to the M2 series, yet people who actually own them seem to like them very much :scratch:

[Yiangos]

Oops,sorry DSJR.Confused the 3012 with the 312.

[DSJR]

Ah, now yer talkin' :lol: Big price jump though.....

[Pani]

Now I am confused. I think the comparison was between the older 3012, newer M and latest Ortofon RS-309D. Why are we bringing in the 312 and V12 in the equation ? Even though they might be good, first of all they are expensive and secondly Platine is very suited with the long 12" arms.

[DSJR]

Then I would say either the M-12 or the Jelco 750 in 12" version :)

[Pani]

Thanks Dave.

[alfie2902]

Hi Pani,

You're in a nice position in buying a Platine Verdier for your first TT! I would love to live with one for a while!

The DL-103 is a great cartridge, I lived with one for a couple of years, it ended up nuded & spooned into a rosewood head shell. The SPU is is though quite a bit better IMO & the Platine Verdier deserves a good cartridge!

My thoughts on TTs are that TT/arm/cart should be thought of as one, & as you are doing, find componants that work well together. For me though, & others will disagree, the transducers in Hifi are what makes the biggest differences & improvements i.e. speakers & cartridges.

The Platine Verdier is a great deck & sound foundation & all the arms you talk about fitting would work pretty well IMO, but the 103, as good as it is, will be the weak link & an SPU I think would work far better with a 12" arm & the Platine Verdier!

What are your thoughts on where you want to go with cartridges in the future? This should perhaps be a consideration, as 12" arms can be very heavy & there effective mass will dictate what to some extent what cartridges you can use later i.e. Low compliance.

The Platine Verdier is now an old design & I think perhaps works best with older arms/carts! I'd have a 3012R over most of the modern 12" SMEs, but suspect the SME M2-12R would also be a good match to. That is if you are thinking 103s & SPU's. The M2 perhaps if you're thinking more modern carts.

If though you are thinking in the long run of higher compliance modern carts then make sure the Tonearm you buy will not have to much effective mass for the modern carts to work, unless you are going to add tonearms as well as cartridges in the future.

Not sure what your budget is for arm/cart but I'd spend a bit more on the cart than the arm if need be! Hence, why i said Jelco SA-750L-12" tonearm with an Ortofon SPU Classic GM or GME. With the Verdier I'd be thinking SPUs, AN Io, Koetsu, Shelter & the 103 oh & perhaps London Decca's.

Also I think there's a special relationship between carts, SUTs & phono stages aside from the TT/Arm/Cart something else to perhaps think about.

Enjoy the journey!

[Pani]

Hi Pani,

You're in a nice position in buying a Platine Verdier for your first TT! I would love to live with one for a while!

The DL-103 is a great cartridge, I lived with one for a couple of years, it ended up nuded & spooned into a rosewood head shell. The SPU is is though quite a bit better IMO & the Platine Verdier deserves a good cartridge!

My thoughts on TTs are that TT/arm/cart should be thought of as one, & as you are doing, find componants that work well together. For me though, & others will disagree, the transducers in Hifi are what makes the biggest differences & improvements i.e. speakers & cartridges.

The Platine Verdier is a great deck & sound foundation & all the arms you talk about fitting would work pretty well IMO, but the 103, as good as it is, will be the weak link & an SPU I think would work far better with a 12" arm & the Platine Verdier!

What are your thoughts on where you want to go with cartridges in the future? This should perhaps be a consideration, as 12" arms can be very heavy & there effective mass will dictate what to some extent what cartridges you can use later i.e. Low compliance.

The Platine Verdier is now an old design & I think perhaps works best with older arms/carts! I'd have a 3012R over most of the modern 12" SMEs, but suspect the SME M2-12R would also be a good match to. That is if you are thinking 103s & SPU's. The M2 perhaps if you're thinking more modern carts.

If though you are thinking in the long run of higher compliance modern carts then make sure the Tonearm you buy will not have to much effective mass for the modern carts to work, unless you are going to add tonearms as well as cartridges in the future.

Not sure what your budget is for arm/cart but I'd spend a bit more on the cart than the arm if need be! Hence, why i said Jelco SA-750L-12" tonearm with an Ortofon SPU Classic GM or GME. With the Verdier I'd be thinking SPUs, AN Io, Koetsu, Shelter & the 103 oh & perhaps London Decca's.

Also I think there's a special relationship between carts, SUTs & phono stages aside from the TT/Arm/Cart something else to perhaps think about.

Enjoy the journey!

I totally agree with most of what you say. Thanks for being elaborate.
I would love to listen to an SPU but at this point I dont see an opportunity.
Coming over to the cost of the tonearm vs the cost of cartridge, I have myself been wondering about all the while. What I understood after listening to various cartridges from $200 to $5000 is, unless I spend about $2000 and above I do not get a cartridge which is as musical as a 103PRO with additional benefits like more detail, transparency etc.
In fact the cartridge that I really have in mind is either a ZYX 4D or Dynavector XV1s. Lots of higher end cartridges end up being too much of hifi.
A good musical setup is such a peace of mind compared to a setup which is super but always asking for a tweak here or there to make music convincing.
Getting into TT for the first time in life I would love to enjoy the experience and buy lots of Vinyls than spending money on tweaks. That is the reason I am playing safe.

Moreover I know what I will gain when I spend more on carts so I can plan it. Another thing is, cartridge is a consumable. I may not be able to afford a $4k cartridge every two years and God forbid if I accidentally mishandle an expensive cartridge I dont know where I will bang my head :). It is so difficult to downgrade once you have lived with some top tier product, isnt it ?
I am happy that I have a TT that can support any level of tonearm and carts. As I progress in this domain, I will definitely go higher up the chain.

In future I plan to go with cartridges like Miyabi, ZYX or Dynavector. I dont have an idea if my 12" SME tonearm will support them or not.

[Audioman]

I totally agree with most of what you say. Thanks for being elaborate.

In future I plan to go with cartridges like Miyabi, ZYX or Dynavector. I dont have an idea if my 12" SME tonearm will support them or not.

If you are going in this direction I suggest SME 312S. You could use a cheaper Dynavector 20XL or AT33EV as a starter.

[Pani]

If you are going in this direction I suggest SME 312S. You could use a cheaper Dynavector 20XL or AT33EV as a starter.

Audioman, I have heard both these cartridges. I dont like AT, while I like the DV I could not appreciate any of their offerings below the XX2. Even XX2 I will not put my money on unless I get a very good deal. But the XV1s was outstanding even for the money they charge.

ZYX however is a different story. The R100 onwards they are lovely, though a bit incisive which needs some careful partnering downstream.

I can see that going in the DL-103PRO direction has some serious tight-coupling like the tonearm has to be heavy, the SUT has to be matched and so on but the only reason I am doing it is because it guarantees outstanding musicality and when I am ready for the next upgrade I should be ready with some serious cash I guess. By the way my phonostage is a Leben RS30EQ.

[DSJR]

I must admit that I didn't find the ZYX R100 "incisive," but then I do like my treble on records if it's reproduced cleanly and use a Decca Microscanner to great effect :lol: if the treble is then too incisive, I'd look at the speakers - there are some shocking tweeters and crossovers still out there in audio-land...:)

[Pani]

I have heard the R100 and 4D. Both are very good for the price. Heard them on a Avid TT.