Best British Integrated [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

jazzpiano

31-10-2011, 02:10

Hello,

I'm curious what the consensus is among forum members regarding what they feel is the best British integrated amp, not including hyper-expensive models like Lfd, etc.? I don't get the opportunity to hear products by Audiolab, Exposure, Creek, Sugden, etc. in my area and have the opportunity to purchase a second-hand Audiolab 8000S for a decent price for use w/ my Spendor SP 1s.

Best,
Barry:violin:

goraman

31-10-2011, 04:43

NOT EXPENSIVE ? Well that rules out the AN-UK Ongaku.
But it would have to be in the top 10 best.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/amps_integrated/ongaku_01.shtml

jandl100

31-10-2011, 08:27

Audiolab? Be careful - a very distinctive sound. To some ears they are detailed, fast and exciting. To others they are bright, foward and thin.

I've not heard an Audiolab/Spendor combo - but as I generally find Spendies a bit boring, the Audiolab might pep it up a bit! :) ... but if you like your Spendors then you may not agree. What amp do you have at the moment?

Of course, as we know from another thread - all amps sound the same! :eyebrows:

Sugden, Exposure, Rega etc, I think that they would be a safer bet if you can't get a demo with your own speakers.

All imo, ymmv. ;)

DSJR

31-10-2011, 09:17

Where's Alex when you need him, as he is currently enjoying SP1's, has a vintage 8000S and has just bought a Rega Brio R...

The Sugden I heard very recently sounded boring and thick textured - definitely a "contrived" soft sound.

Since you hail from the US, I hopefully can't be accused of shilling, but my current two faves for SP1's would be the Croft integrated (£800 without phono, £1K with - and there's now an "R" version without phono too I understand) and the delightful little Rega brio "R" which has the life of the old UK made 8000S but doesn't have the thin and relentless quality it can sometimes exhibit, as Jerry has attested to.

Since you're in the US, there may be some classic integrateds from Sony for example that may be wonderful, although the original SP1 isn't supported by Spendor if a bass unit fails due to an amp failure, as happened to a trusty and endearing old Sony TA-5650, which was daily used for thirty years. The SP1/2 is apparently, and needs to be because I understand the bass unit surround hardens on this and the SP2/2 onwards and this affects the sound badly.

While I'm banging on about vintage gear, and not knowing how many inputs you have, Crown "D" series amps sound excellent with Spendors. My bridged D-60's are nearly 40 years old, still exceed their spec (an engineer tested them a few years ago), are tough as old boots and with my croft valve preamp have a sense of air and space which is great for me, together with superb control of them underdamped cones... We sold many D150A's with Spendors of various models (wonderful with the difficult BC3 loading). The partnering preamp isn't so bad if it's used the way it was recommended - run hard with power amp gain controls turned down (having the pots there makes no sonic issues as there'd have been a loading resistor there anyway I think), but the later SL2 preamp was apparently better and benefits from new IC's and a re-cap - around $700 I suspect for a clean pairing - just a thought and WAY better than any Audiolab with Spendor "anything..," past or present IMO.....

jandl100

31-10-2011, 09:27

Well, yes, Sugden ... I agree with DJSR there. Not the most exciting sound in the world. But then I wouldn't say that SP1 Spendors are either! (I've owned SP1/2).

I guess if you're looking at the Audiolab then you've got a few $hundred assigned for the task?
I've not heard the new Rega that Dave recommends, but in my experience, the best thing that you can do with Spendors is partner them with a lively sounding valve/tube amp ... Audio Innovations 500, Croft Series 5 ... that sort of thing. I feel sure there are US equivalents ... anyone? I had a Chinese OTL valve amp that did well, too. They did the best job of bringing my SP1/2 to life, although even they couldn't quite do enough for my taste.

DSJR

31-10-2011, 13:17

Well, yes, Sugden ... I agree with DJSR there. Not the most exciting sound in the world. But then I wouldn't say that SP1 Spendors are either! (I've owned SP1/2).

SP1/2's now are pretty useless as the driver surrounds harden and the unit seizes up pretty well. The Spendor Yahoo group goes into it in some depth - and with a temporary cure. My mates ex-editing suite SP2/3's benefitted from this (application of a particulr grade of brake fluid to the rubber compound surrounds).

These days, I don't want an "exciting" sound, just a natural one at the rather low levels I play at. Classic Spendors and especially the current harbeths do this with ease. Everyone else can of course look at Neats, KudoSSSSS and the delightful little Rega's amongst others :)

SP1's do like sounds Croft-style and the series 5 would be the all-valve Croft of choice here. The series 7 hybrid is rather better though and far less hassle...

jandl100

31-10-2011, 13:26

Oh dear - sorry to hear about the SP1/2 problems - mine seemed fine, a Minty pair about 3 years back now, I guess.

These days, I don't want an "exciting" sound

Well, for me, if the excitement is in the music then I want to hear it! That's what I mean by an 'exciting sound' - it lets the music speak for itself. Much kit puts the dampers on such things, which is a no-no in my book. :)

DSJR

31-10-2011, 13:45

Agreed, and I get it in bucketloads here :)

jazzpiano

31-10-2011, 15:52

Thnks all for your comments re: Spendor SP 1s. Dave, I especially appreciate your in-depth comments. As Rega is well-represented in the states I think I could track down the new Brio. Lot of positive comments on this unit. Crown was pretty highly sold around here in the 70s and hasn't been given much respect in these parts, so I may be able to try one out for a relative song. I'll look for the model you mention. I'll check out the surrounds by pushing gently on the surface of the driver and see how much give there is.

Thanks Again,
Barry :cool:

jostber

31-10-2011, 16:15

What about the EAR 834:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/ambackissues/EAR834.htm

hifi_dave

31-10-2011, 16:51

Very good indeed as is their excellent 899 but both very expensive now.

IHP

31-10-2011, 16:59

Very good indeed as is their excellent 899 but both very expensive now.

I've not heard any of the Croft integrated amps, must be a worthy contender. And there's a new Quad solid state integrated would you believe !

Rare Bird

31-10-2011, 18:42

I'm curious what the consensus is among forum members regarding what they feel is the best British integrated amp
HJ Leak 'Stereo 30+'/Ferrograph 'F307.II

:sofa:

Barry

31-10-2011, 18:57

HJ Leak 'Stereo 30+'/Ferrograph 'F307.II

:sofa:

How about the Leak 'Stereo 70' or any of the Cambridge 'P' series? And then there is the little known Lustraphone LP100 and Lowther integrated amp. :rolleyes:

Alex_UK

31-10-2011, 19:17

IMO the Audiolab 8000S was not a great match for the SP1s, at least until I used an interconnect as a "tone control" to tame the brightness/fatigue. To be fair though, it probably worked better than the Creek Evo I recently sold, as that was maybe a bit too smooth. What the SP1s were really crying out for it seems was indeed the Brio R - quite happy using the revealing Mark Grant G1000HD and seems to do everything very well, living up to the reviews/hype, depending on your viewpoint! ;) My only concern was the drop in power - (85 watts for the Creek, 65 for the Audiolab and 50 for the Rega) but seems to make no difference - if anything, there is more slam and oomph with the Brio R. Still too early to go into much detail but I'm very happy so far.

All of the above you can of course disregard if you've been reading the other thread about being unable to distinguish between amps... ;)

Reid Malenfant

31-10-2011, 19:26

Hmmm, it depends on your definition of hyper expensive :scratch:

However I'd like to see the outcome of an ATC SIA-150 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/atcsia150.htm) against all those mentioned :eyebrows: I think i know where my money would go ;)

Rare Bird

31-10-2011, 20:20

How about the Leak 'Stereo 70' or any of the Cambridge 'P' series? And then there is the little known Lustraphone LP100 and Lowther integrated amp. :rolleyes:

Errrrrrrrrrr No :lol:

Its a crazy topic really cos megga expensive with a suitable brand name constitutes the best dont it? :D

jostber

31-10-2011, 20:22

You might get Avondale to make you one:

http://avondaleaudio.com/custom-audiophile-amplifiers/

The Black Adder

31-10-2011, 22:58

I can recommend Croft, Audio Note OTO and Chord SPM 2600 / 2650 / 3300

All very different but if I was to go with one I'd go for the latest Croft integrated.

DSJR

01-11-2011, 09:21

How about the Leak 'Stereo 70' or any of the Cambridge 'P' series? And then there is the little known Lustraphone LP100 and Lowther integrated amp. :rolleyes:

I want a Lustraphone again, but you never see them and the early ones have a habit of frying their output stages with switch-on voltage spikes (wouldn't happen today with newer, higher voltage transistors). The old 1970's Cambridge P series look fantastic, but the designs weren't really "finished" regarding distortions which could be audible IMO and reliability was an issue at the time. The much later "P" models were really nice I remember.

Lowther were still listing their valve amps in the mid 70's, but I doubt they sold many of any at all by then. Supposedly wonderful and they fetch mega-bucks today I believe.

Barry

01-11-2011, 17:48

There seems to be a divide between those British integrated amplifiers that either look good or sound good.

When it comes to integrated amplifiers that sound good but are "pig ugly", there is the Naim NAIT. I happen to think the Leak Stereo 70 was a better sounding amplifier than the Leak Stereo 30.

I cannot find any information on the Lowther solid state integrated amplifier, but I would imagine it was likely to be a good sounding amp even though it had very traditional styling. (Moral: never throw away any manufacturer's literature!)

Anyway another short-lived British integrated amplifier that did sound good, and in my opinion looked good, was the Harrison Chapman S200 amp. I think it used MOSFET ouput devices, it had a number of innovations: touch sensor input selection; a LED 'bargraph' level meter and (I think) a centre 'presence' level control. Unfortunately it was not the best built piece of equipment.

DSJR

01-11-2011, 19:08

... and they used to go wrong I think, as did much UK made gear at that time, except Quad, who were pretty good I remember.

aquapiranha

01-11-2011, 20:28

Creek. 4040?

Myryad are not bad either.

Barry

02-11-2011, 00:25

... and they used to go wrong I think, as did much UK made gear at that time, except Quad, who were pretty good I remember.

With the Harrison S200, it was the shallow profile reed relays used to switch inputs that would often fail. Made a mockery of their 'clever' touch contact input switching.

Add to that the DIN speaker connectors that were pop-riveted in place (as was all the DIN socketry), it was as I stated, not the best built piece of kit. I had frequent experience of one driving Cambridge R50 four-way transmission line loudspeakers in the eighties. They weren't a bad sounding amplifier at all.

Quads were always reliable: the BBC used hundreds of them. The only design flaw was the mounting of the large electrolytic capacitors 'upside down'. When the capacitor can bulged with age and leaked, the electrolyte would leak over the circuit boards lying underneath. Quad revised the design by later fitting the capacitors with their terminals uppermost.

Rare Bird

02-11-2011, 00:31

I happen to think the Leak Stereo 70 was a better sounding amplifier than the Leak Stereo 30.

Leak 'Stereo 30' & 'Stereo 30 Plus' are not the same.. Ive scootinized all three i still prefer the '30 Plus'

goraman

02-11-2011, 02:07

Barry, Those Spender 1's where 88db. 1 watt.
So it would have to be able to drive, getting to 106 db. 64 watts.
So a 100 watt per channel amp would give you some headroom to prevent clipping should some one turn it up a little.
If you don't rock out, this will do nicely : http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-product-type/599
I would not recommend anything under 50 watts RMS at 8 ohms. Or you risk clipping the amp and finding a new pair of SP1 tweeters.

If you like to turn things up a new British integrated my not be your huckleberry. http://www.audioresearch.com/DSi200.html
It dose cost a little more but it will easily drive your SP1's with loads of headroom.
Ever think about getting some newer more efficient speakers? 95 to 98 db.@1 watt. then you can drive them with a less expensive 20 to 40 watt integrated. These are a give away. $649.00 http://www.tektondesign.com/model81t.html

I just got these and they shake the walls with just a couple of watts.
http://www.tektondesign.com/lore.html $999.00

BARRY, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT BEING YOU LIVE IN THE U.S.

DSJR

02-11-2011, 09:01

Hi Jeff,

I don't mean to cr@p all over your post above but I would NEVER drive SP1's in ANY version to anything like these sort of levels, as the whole design is more about truthful timbres at lower levels. Driving them hard tends to make the sound as if the speaker's going to shake apart - ATC-Overkill it certainly ain't :lol:

Having said this, a bit of "life" and control in the amp would be ideal - i.e. good damping factor - slush-boxes look elsewhere ;) The Supernait isn't good enough IMO - good bass but contrived/constrained treble, although it would work. FAR better IMO to get a good CB era 72/HiCap and 250 and have them serviced - far better for SP1's and I've enjoyed many a session with this setup. Despite Naim's low damping, the character in the CB era 250 does work well with SP1's :)

My Crofted Quad II's are fine with approx 86db sensitivity as long as loud rock isn't on the agenda, but a 405-2 would be ideal with a 44 or 66 preamp - IMO. We're going away from integrateds though - apologies..........

Alex_UK

02-11-2011, 09:09

Just been playing Nirvana - Nevermind with volume at 12 o'clock on the Rega Brio R through the SP1's - to be honest, much more and my ears would bleed before the speakers gave up or the amp went into clipping. ;)

jazzpiano

02-11-2011, 17:03

Thank you Jeff, Dave, Alex, and all others. I particularly appreciate your feedback vis-a-vis where I live, sensitivity levels, etc. I have heard from multiple people that a refurbished 405-II is a near perfect match for these AND, that the Rega Brio-R is a stunner. I can't see myself ever giving up on the SP1s, even though I'd like to try something completely different someday (say a vintage full-ranger like Tannoy, Wharfedale Airedale, and if I can't find these around here, maybe Altec or JBL?)

Best,
Barry

bigmoog

02-11-2011, 17:06

my favourite ever british integrated was the kelvin labs (first and second versions). a superb class a, low powered piece of lovelyness, it made recordings sound just so. i used this for a couple of years and stupidly sold it to finance a bout of nutty updgradeitis.:doh:

WAD62

02-11-2011, 17:23

I've owned an Audiolab 8000S for about 15 years now, and as a lot of others have mentioned it is detailed, but can be a little harsh with the wrong components.

It's now relegated to the bedroom, but still going well...:)

I'd be a little careful about buying an old original UK one (although better than the more recent Chinese examples), they're not very resistant to being left on, as the main PCB can overheat & fail (due to the internal layout). I had to have mine repaired about 5 years ago for this very reason.

Barry

02-11-2011, 17:56

No-one seems to have mentioned the Sugden A21 and its successor the A21a, or for that matter its predecessor the Richard Allen A21.

Only 12.5W/channel - but I used one (well the power section of one) with Quad 57s, before moving on to the more powerful design: the A51). If 12W is not enough there was the A48, but I never heard it.

Rare Bird

02-11-2011, 18:00

Come on everyone knows the A&R Cambs 'A60' is the best loved Intergrated, if you can live with the plain jane looks that is.

Barry

02-11-2011, 18:12

Come on everyone knows the A&R Cambs 'A60' is the best loved Integrated, if you can live with the plain jane looks that is.

I'm inclined to agree André - but is best loved, the same as best sounding?

Regards

Rare Bird

02-11-2011, 19:18

I'm inclined to agree André - but is best loved, the same as best sounding?

Regards

There is no best sounding, it's whats best to each individuals ears, i happen to think a fully fettled 'A60' would rips shreads off some mega buck amps..On another note i wouldnt touch a modern intergrated with a barge pole & i certainly would entertain one full of IC's. :)

People live with amps for different reasons, I'll admit if i put up my own amp for others to hear esecially those people tuned into the modern sound they would hate it, they would probably think it's also pig ugly but it ticks all the boxes for me in every way.

Like i said a pretty pointless thread. :)

DSJR

02-11-2011, 19:52

Modern IC's are cheap as chips and capable - how many analogue recordings have we all heard and bought which went through mixing desks and tape machines full of the blighters?????

The A60 is a classic but I suspect most will be extremely tired by now.

DSJR

02-11-2011, 20:03

Modern HiFi amps aren't quite like that and far-eastern manufacture apart, iffy caps can be upgraded and the likes of Rotel, HK, Cambridge et al do seem to make some great stuff still.

Barry

02-11-2011, 20:05

There is no best sounding, it's whats best to each individuals ears, I happen to think a fully fettled 'A60' would rips shreads off some mega buck amps. On another note I wouldnt touch a modern intergrated with a barge pole & I certainly would entertain one full of IC's. :)

People live with amps for different reasons, I'll admit if I put up my own amp for others to hear esecially those people tuned into the modern sound they would hate it, they would probably think it's also pig ugly but it ticks all the boxes for me in every way.

Like I said a pretty pointless thread. :)

I don't think the Ferrograph 307 amp is pig ugly at all. In fact I like the 'scientific instrument' look, and the fact that little used controls are hidden under a flap on the front panel.

Rare Bird

02-11-2011, 22:35

I don't think the Ferrograph 307 amp is pig ugly at all. In fact I like the 'scientific instrument' look, and the fact that little used controls are hidden under a flap on the front panel.

They are no doubt beautiful & you obviusly are a man of great taste, but show this a bloke who thinks a characterless black box is what hi-fi should look like he'll say different :lolsign:

Here's my excuse to post some audio porn :eyebrows:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Picture013-2.jpg

Alex_UK

02-11-2011, 22:43

I'd be a little careful about buying an old original UK one (although better than the more recent Chinese examples), they're not very resistant to being left on, as the main PCB can overheat & fail (due to the internal layout).

All bar one input on mine has literally "crumbled" (the black plastic that hold the RCA inputs together went brittle) - which was due to being left on for virtually 15 years non-stop (I never turned it off except to move house or decorate!) so I would agree - don't leave an 8000S on when your not using it! (Actually, I don't leave any amp on 24/7 now.)

goraman

03-11-2011, 00:32

They are no doubt beautiful & you obviusly are a man of great taste, but show this a bloke who thinks a characterless black box is what hi-fi should look like he'll say different :lolsign:

Here's my excuse to post some audio porn :eyebrows:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Picture013-2.jpg

I saw that amp in a Godzilla movie.

Rare Bird

03-11-2011, 01:59

Um did you really :rolleyes:

Arfa

03-11-2011, 13:28

My vote goes to the Exposure XXV. Don't think I'd ever let go of mine. Decent punchy sound, lots of weight, yet still plenty detailed enough. Listen to anything heavy, fast or both on one, and you too will never let it go.

technobear

03-11-2011, 17:55

Welder

03-11-2011, 18:55

I’m going to have to agree with you Arfa. :)

I’ve tried various amps over the years, not expert level quantities, but enough to decide that in my system I probably couldn’t find an amp that suits my system and my ears better.

Most Exposures will happily push about any sensible driver configuration without going into a sulk if the impedance curve is less than perfect. They’re pretty much indestructible. Exposure doesn’t bother with gimmickry or an excess of functions and to my ears make music sound like music.
I’ve had my 25RC for 10 years or so now and it’s seen off some fairly expensive kit; not necessarily because it sounded any better but because it didn’t sound any worse.

If I have a criticism of the 25RC it’s that 60 Watts may not be enough power at high listening volume in some systems. A bit of enthusiastic bass drumming or deep organ notes can push it into clipping at high sound pressure levels, say 90db plus but it will all depend on the efficiency of your speakers.

As for the criticism that it tends to roll off at the frequency extremes; yep, its absolutely true (it does 20Hz to 20 kHz) but as it happens it is virtually identical to my Volts at the low end and I’m really not concerned about all the psycho acoustic stuff at high frequencies coz I cant hear it.
Add to this that despite all the fuss about frequency extremes not many people have speakers that can reproduce much below 60 Hz and keep a flat response. My Volts will do 20 Hz albeit at approximately a 6 db reduction and the 25RC copes with that.

Highly recommended if you want a sensible amp that does what it says on the box. They don’t do any of this voicing nonsense; bits of Watts in at the blunt end and big Watts come out at the pointy end, just what an amplifier is supposed to do in fact
I’m keeping the 25RC even though I’m using the 21RC and 18 combo atm for the extra watts. If you can find one buy it but you ain’t having mine.

DSJR

03-11-2011, 19:36

Well naturally I can recommend Croft. My Syntegra is an absolute honey.

The ATC SIA2-150 is a great amp too. I had one before the Croft. Plenty of power and finesse but the Croft beats it on boogie factor.

I've also had an Arcam Alpha 8R/8P bi-amped pair and they were very good too.

In fact, when my Croft is sold, an Alpha 8 or Alpha 9 are on the list to replace it.

The Alpha 8 was a ringy bag of nails and so was the 8P that sometimes went with it. GHASTLY thing and since you won't agree, try a clamshell Rega Mira or Luna instead. They knocked the Arcam totally into touch at the time and the original Mira didn't cost much more either.

The Alpha 9 was totally over-shadowed by the 10 and this was bettered by the better FMJ version, which was far better cased.

So there :ner:

selling a Croft anything for an Arcam anything - total madness! MADNESS I say - mumble mumble.....

Audioman

03-11-2011, 19:51

technobear

03-11-2011, 20:00

The Alpha 8 was a ringy bag of nails and so was the 8P that sometimes went with it. GHASTLY thing and since you won't agree, try a clamshell Rega Mira or Luna instead. They knocked the Arcam totally into touch at the time and the original Mira didn't cost much more either.

:lolsign:

I've never liked the sound of Rega amps or their CD players for that matter. I just don't see what all the fuss is about. They sound very rough and ready compared to the Arcams I have owned. The Arcam CD192 totally creamed the Rega Jupiter and for a lot less dosh. The Alpha casing is easily improved with some damping mat.

The Alpha 9 was totally over-shadowed by the 10 and this was bettered by the better FMJ version, which was far better cased.

Not everyone liked the 10. Existing Arcam fans were a bit bemused by it.

selling a Croft anything for an Arcam anything - total madness! MADNESS I say - mumble mumble.....

That's not quite what's happening. The Beyerdynamic T1's have replaced the Zu Druids and the Croft Syntegra.

However I still need some sort of speaker system for the telly and for when people come round so I have a pair of Jamo Cornet 145's and am scouting about for a decent but cheap amp to drive them. An Alpha would be fine but I'm also looking at the Yamaha A-S500, Marantz PM6004 and similar suspects like Rotel, Onkyo and Denon. One major criteria is that the amp must have tone controls (I can feel the howls of dismay from here :ner:) which rules out most British amps.

goraman

03-11-2011, 21:03

Um did you really :rolleyes:

No, not really just a little friendly banter and B.S.
Do you guys do this sort of thing in England? or is that exclusive to the U.S.?:lol:

RobHolt

05-11-2011, 13:14

I'll nominate two for slightly different reasons.

Firstly the Cambridge CA840A. Great sound, powerful, well built, super specs and lots of amp for £800.

Most of the Cyrus amplifiers.
Again great performance and all wrapped in a neat package for reasonable money.
Stand outs from the old models are the C2 and C3. The former is particularly good if you run a MC cartridge as the onboard phono section is excellent.

Rob

DSJR

05-11-2011, 13:47

I think the C3 was better on it's own, as "we've" had the discussion before regarding the Cyrus 2/PSX, my own view being that in later years and with the advent of the Quad 77, Myryad MI-120 and Audiolab 8000S, the Cyrus 2 on its own sounded too lean and sterile (even compared to the 8000S which actually fleshed things out a little more IMO).

I don't think there are any "shops" where you can go and compare many of these old amps as they are now. many of the iffy ones may have sweetened up no end with a decade or more use, whreas others may have gone right off as old thrashed Naims do pre re-furb...