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Neil McCauley
20-10-2011, 18:30
http://not-boring-honestly.blogspot.com/2011/10/leaving-aos-forum-because-of-perceived.html

The Grand Wazoo
21-10-2011, 14:52
Howard posted the above yesterday in order to signpost his decision to no longer participate in the forum. Marco subsequently deleted it. It went into the Trade Impressions section but, since it is effectively a complaint about The Art of Sound, I’ve moved it here. You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages.

If you follow the link, you might think, like I do, that it’s a bit of a shame that Howard has misinterpreted Marco’s comment in the way he seems to have done – both in intent and in meaning.

I had to do a little reading to discover the meaning and origin of the phrase that Marco used which apparently so offended Howard. I’d never heard it before, but it’s not too hard to find out what ‘Indian Giver’ means. There are several definitions and entries to Wikki’s and the like which explain the phrase, and some of them state that it is considered by some to be an offensive term. However, I couldn’t find a single one that mentioned it could be considered offensive to people from Asia.

What I did find, though, was the website of an Australian fashion business, which is called Indian Giver. The description which is given in their ‘About’ page (http://www.indiangiver.com.au/flash/index.asp) reflects exactly the sentiment which I feel Marco was trying to convey.

QUOTE: The name Indian Giver refers to the form of trading with the intention of returning.
Indian Giver deeply respects the native American culture and it’s traditions. No disrespect or harm is intended or inferred.

This seems a little at odds with the standpoint which Howard seems to be taking – that it is comparable with the term ‘Filthy Yid’.

Just like Howard, I don’t want to be associated with a forum that expresses racist views either, and on several occasions, both as a moderator and as a normal member, I have pointed out others behaviour when it has been truly offensive in this way. The difference in this case is that I don’t consider what was said to be racist. Now, Howard well may continue to think differently, but my view was that his privately published blog comments should not be the only place where this is documented, hence my decision to reinstate Howard’s post.

Maybe other people have an opinion on whether it is offensive? - whether they're Asian, from a First Nations tribe or otherwise.

Darren
21-10-2011, 15:19
I have always known since I was a child that the term Indian Giver refers to an aspect of Original American culture and does not refer to Asian people in any way.
Please Howard, put your Dummy back in.

Darren
21-10-2011, 15:22
Actually I've just read Howard's remarks on his blog. Bet Marco won't sleep at night now......

webby
21-10-2011, 15:34
Pathetic!

Welder
21-10-2011, 15:47
"You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages."

Did Howard ever do anything else?

As for the "Indian giver" bit, I've always understood this to be much as Marco's use of the expression.

Marco
21-10-2011, 15:55
Hi John,


As for the "Indian giver" bit, I've always understood this to be much as Marco's use of the expression.


Could you clarify that please, John? :)

Marco.

Welder
21-10-2011, 16:01
"a present for which an equivalent return is expected."

The Grand Wazoo
21-10-2011, 16:07
"You’ll see that, as has often been Howard’s way of late, all he’s done is to post a link to his own blog pages."

Did Howard ever do anything else?


Well, yes he did actually.
In the past, Howard has written many intelligent, thoughtful and thought provoking posts on AoS (& I have told him that I had admired him for doing so) but that all changed & for some reason his preferred method has been to direct things to his own blog or to other web pages.

Welder
21-10-2011, 16:20
I must have missed those ;)

I don't want to just dig Howard out because he can't reply as i understand it.
But, this is obviously open to comment so here's mine.
I would say though that participation in discussion, no matter how knowledgeable or not, and no matter how contrary to the forums ethos, provided its carried out in a reasonable manner, is what helps to keep the forum alive.
Posting external links is okay i suppose, but then to not put forward a personal opinion leaves the link kind of hanging without much prospect of further dialogue.
So, writing a first post, no matter how well written and tossing it to the keyboard warriors to fight over is in my view a form of arrogance and voyeuristic.
However, its not my forum and what Marco is and isn't prepared to put up with is his business.
Overall though i find Marco pretty tolerant. I would have chucked Howard off the forums i moderate long a ago but I'm just horrid :ner:

MartinT
21-10-2011, 16:35
Howard used to make many good and thought-provoking contributions to AoS. However, his misinterpretation of the well-known phrase "Indian Giver" is ridiculous and would have taken just a few minutes to look up and verify. It relates to American Indians and means "a present for which a return gift is required". To accuse someone of racism should not be taken lightly, and in this case Howard is mistaken and should apologise.

Spur07
21-10-2011, 16:35
"a present for which an equivalent return is expected."

It certainly has nothing to do with Asia. He's lost the plot a bit.

If Howard finds anyone connected to the subcontinent offended by this I'd be amazed.

Marco
21-10-2011, 16:37
"a present for which an equivalent return is expected."

Thanks for the clarification, John,

Unfortunately, that succinctly sums up Howard's attitude recently. Imagine casting up the free gifts he once gave to members here in order to seek some form of selfish recognition? :rolleyes:

We all know why he did it, of course, and that was mainly to bombard people with emails (from the details given upon entering the 'competitions' where these 'gifts' were awarded) updating participants on his website or blog, where he sells his wares, with ultimately financial reward in mind.... "Indian giver", indeed!

I've no idea why his attitude has turned to being so centered on self-promotion, although of course, as discussed above, 'cunningly disguised' otherwise....

We put up with it for a while, in the hope that he would return to being the Howard we once used to know, but in the end he pushed the boundaries of our tolerance and patience way too far.

I shall say no more.

Marco.

Rare Bird
21-10-2011, 17:29
well ive always known the term to be aimed at giving something to someone, to later on ask for it back or even give something to some worth say £20 to ask for something back worth more in value.

sq225917
21-10-2011, 17:37
I've not been a member for long but the balance of visible trade appeared to be in Howard's favour. I love the delicious irony that he's thrown his toys out of the prams due to his misinterpretation of a well known phrase as being racist- so he's prepared to stand up for minorities but at the same tiem started a thread poking fun at the lower end of the social spectrum and those who didn't share his same 'developed' musical tastes.

Double standards ahoy.

goraman
21-10-2011, 17:55
Howard seemed to use this forum to advance his agenda,always posting some thing to keep that link up on the front page.
My wife is Desi from Pakistan once India so same race of people. A good deal of our lives spent in the Indian community as my wife's business is eyebrow threading and Henna body art and selling Indian jewelry and cloths.

I can say honestly that Marcos comments would not upset any Desi Indians.
My wife just laughed.

Playing the race card like this is very small of Howard.
I have always thought of him as sort of a blow hard with an agenda any way so I won't miss him.
It shows Marco is a much bigger man for even leaving this link in place.
Best of luck to Howard, hope he moves on...

Thing Fish
21-10-2011, 18:41
There's no one left in my 'Ignore List' now.

I only had two and now they are both gone...:)

Reid Malenfant
21-10-2011, 18:47
There's no one left in my 'Ignore List' now.

I only had two and now they are both gone...:)
Hopefully you'll not have to use that facility again Dave, well you can live in hope ;)

Thing Fish
21-10-2011, 18:58
Hopefully not.

Friendly bunch here...:ner:

Dingdong
21-10-2011, 19:08
There's no one left in my 'Ignore List' now.

I only had two and now they are both gone...:)


If it helps you out you can ignore me for a bit if you want. Promise I won't get the hump.

Better check what 'getting the hump' means in case I've just offended someone.

Thing Fish
21-10-2011, 19:57
Better check what 'getting the hump' means in case I've just offended someone.

My uncle was a hump back. I'm offended...:lol:

Dingdong
21-10-2011, 20:48
Ah, bugger!!
Sorry about that.

Bugger is safe to say isn't it?

Reid Malenfant
21-10-2011, 20:49
:lolsign:

Stratmangler
21-10-2011, 21:06
My uncle was a hump back. I'm offended...:lol:

Your uncle was a camel? :eek:
What is he now? :eyebrows:

webby
21-10-2011, 21:09
Your uncle was a camel? :eek:
What is he now? :eyebrows:

Maybe a whale?

Ali Tait
21-10-2011, 22:42
Howard seemed to use this forum to advance his agenda,always posting some thing to keep that link up on the front page.
My wife is Desi from Pakistan once India so same race of people. A good deal of our lives spent in the Indian community as my wife's business is eyebrow threading and Henna body art and selling Indian jewelry and cloths.

I can say honestly that Marcos comments would not upset any Desi Indians.
My wife just laughed.

Playing the race card like this is very small of Howard.
I have always thought of him as sort of a blow hard with an agenda any way so I won't miss him.
It shows Marco is a much bigger man for even leaving this link in place.
Best of luck to Howard, hope he moves on...

+1. I thought of him the same way to be honest Jeff, and that was before the last time he parted company with this forum. No agenda on my part, just felt moved to reply to your post as my other half has partial Asian ancestry also. Then again, she can also boast Japanese and Seyshellian blood too. :)

Rare Bird
21-10-2011, 23:40
There's no one left in my 'Ignore List' now.

I only had two and now they are both gone...:)

:lol:

Tarzan
22-10-2011, 00:18
What did we used to do before the M25, The Internet and political correctness- seriously l am not posting anymore in case l offend anyone or anything:wave::lol:

goraman
22-10-2011, 01:21
What did we used to do before the M25, The Internet and political correctness- seriously l am not posting anymore in case l offend anyone or anything:wave::lol:

I am offended by your lack of further posting,no commitment.

Tarzan
22-10-2011, 07:43
You Sir,should take a long hard look at your Avatar text-oh l am so offended:laugh:

DSJR
22-10-2011, 09:33
I've no idea why his attitude has turned to being so centered on self-promotion, although of course, as discussed above, 'cunningly disguised' otherwise....

We put up with it for a while, in the hope that he would return to being the Howard we once used to know, but in the end he pushed the boundaries of our tolerance and patience way too far.

I shall say no more.

Marco.

I can tell you precisely why he was so keen to self-promote. Things is very tough out there in HiFi land, especially for small dealers running their businesses from home (there's quite a few now) with small to zero advertising budgets and a product portfolio hardly in the "mainstream," to be polite about it.

Joe
22-10-2011, 11:16
What I did find, though, was the website of an Australian fashion business, which is called Indian Giver. The description which is given in their ‘About’ page (http://www.indiangiver.com.au/flash/index.asp) reflects exactly the sentiment which I feel Marco was trying to convey.

QUOTE: The name Indian Giver refers to the form of trading with the intention of returning.
Indian Giver deeply respects the native American culture and it’s traditions. No disrespect or harm is intended or inferred.

Maybe other people have an opinion on whether it is offensive? - whether they're Asian, from a First Nations tribe or otherwise.

I find the misplaced apostrophe in the bit you've quoted highly offensive. I demand an apology and substantial damages for hurt feelings.

worthingpagan
22-10-2011, 11:23
Joe, I find it highly offensive that you are offended, please apologise immediately and settle out of court ;)

Joe
22-10-2011, 11:35
Joe, I find it highly offensive that you are offended, please apologise immediately and settle out of court ;)

Have your lawyer contact mine, and I'll see you in court. Political correctness is one thing, this is just taking the piss!

Joe
22-10-2011, 11:36
My uncle was a hump back. I'm offended...:lol:

Does the name Quasimodo ring a bell?

Macca
22-10-2011, 11:37
Does the name Quasimodo ring a bell?

No point talking to him - he's got the hump...

Joe
22-10-2011, 11:40
No point talking to him - he's got the hump...

I'll stick him on me ignore list then.

Thing Fish
22-10-2011, 14:14
I've now decided to put everyone on my ignore list as racism is rife on this site.

Its a bit quite though...:popcorn:

Dingdong
22-10-2011, 15:32
I've now decided to put everyone on my ignore list as racism is rife on this site.

Its a bit quite though...:popcorn:

Sod off then, you berk:)





Might actually be best not to look up the origins of those words.

Alex_UK
22-10-2011, 15:48
Sod off then, you berk:)


Might actually be best not to look up the origins of those words.

:eek: Comes from the Cockney rhyming slang "Berkshire Hunt"

How very dare you use that language on the forum - that's it, you're on my ignore list twice!

:D

Dingdong
22-10-2011, 16:14
Right then. If I'm being doubly ignored I'm off for a powwow with Howard.

goraman
22-10-2011, 18:33
I think it's time to kill this thread, It's not going to help anything or any one and may only make things worse.
Howard has gone, AOS will go on and at some point I suspect Howard will do the same.
Having been Banned for life from a much lesser forum, I can honestly say it's not the end of Howards world.Or one would at least hope not.

Not every forum is right for everyone.
Time to move on,nothing to see here people...

MartinT
22-10-2011, 19:28
I agree with you, Jeff. If there are no other comments, we'll close this soon.

The Grand Wazoo
22-10-2011, 20:58
Yes, I think it's gone rather beyond the question I originally asked.

Only to mention that the following comment has appeared on Howard's blog:


Anonymous said...
As an Indian, I appreciate and respect your sensitivity. I must however in all honesty point out that the phrase "Indian giver" has to do with native americans. As they did not have the concept of private property they would sometimes claim ownership of property that they were deemed to have sold in exchange of some glass beads etc..
21 October 2011 22:06