filling speaker stands

[hermit]

I just bought a pair of Atacama SE6 stands s/h and intend to fill them. I have 6 kg of lead shot lying around but to fill the fairly massive columns I figure I'll need a fair amount of kiln dried sand as well. Please excuse my ignorance but I have some (possibly silly) questions:

Should I be filling the whole column or half or two-thirds? Should I mix the lead and sand throughout or have the shot at the bottom and the sand on top or vice-versa? Does any of this matter?

How many kg of sand might I need approximately? 3kg per column?

the last two pics in this gallery show the atacamas:here (http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/25849675/1/public?h=d4589f)

thanks in advance
paul

[Stratmangler]

Not being funny here, but methinks you're worrying about how to do it more than doing it.

Just stick something massy and lossy inside and have done with it.
I don't think that anyone has experimented hugely with this, and they most certainly will not have copious notes written about the methodology or the results :)

[hifi_dave]

It's a matter of taste. Different fillings sound slightly different but don't lose any sleep.

Try a mix of lead shot and DRY sand. Start with a 1/4 fill and add more until you get the desired result. Over filling might sound worse than partial fill.

[tommy6206]

Play sand from Argos cheap as chips

[bobbasrah]

Never used lead shot so cannot comment on acoustic difference. I can however understand lead shot adding greater mass to the bottom of a lightweight or tall stand for greater stability, but my Clydebuilt DIY's had no such issues.

To dampen ringing in tubular stands, fill with plain sand (washed or unwashed, but dry) compacted as much as possible to the top of the tube. It will settle/compact over time anyway. Bung the hole with a scrunch of paper or cover with tape to prevent dust/spillage. Job done.

[worthingpagan]

you can also use polystyrene, like the cavity wall insulation balls. I used sand once in a pair of Apollo stands and within 3 years they had rusted away! Whether that was due to the type of sand used or the metal stands just being poorly made I don't know, but it put me off using sand again forever

[hifi_dave]

Likely, the sand wasn't completely dry. Over the years I have supplied hundreds of sand filled stands and none have rusted. The sand has to be bone dry and then some.

[prestonchipfryer]

If using sand then to make sure it is bone dry, pop in an oven at 100C until it feels hot throughout. I have done this. WAF very low so wait til the coast is clear. :lol:

[webby]

I bought my atacamas 2nd hand and they were already filled with lots of small bags of sand. I'd never have thought of using the bags. I guess that makes it easier? Thought I'd pass that on.

[DSJR]

All been done before :lol:

Have you considered cat litter - clean of course????? :D No problems with rusting and it might just keep the innards dry...

[Welder]

If you just want to prevent the stand resonating then expanding foam seems to do the trick. You do need to be a bit inventive with the nozzle to reach far corners, or access from more than one point.

I don't know the stands in question, but it works well with frame stands.

[DSJR]

I never was inventive with the nozzle :(

[goraman]

I have done this with great results ,both my rack and ultimate platform stands.
I talked with the folks at Sanus and this is the trick pre mix #9 or smaller shot(I used number 12) with kiln dried white sand 50/50 mine came from white sands New Mexico. Fill them all the way up,tamp them a few times and fill again till there is no air gap then install the top plate.
This is the most dense and will add weight and leave no room for ringing or resonance.
The thing I noticed was much tighter bass and a little more of it.
They will be very heavy so watch your back when tamping them.
Big Tip. (mate your speakers to the stands with Blue Tac , it looks like putty but it holds them securely, it doesn't hurt your speakers finish and it is as tight a screwing them down.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think we are all missing a trick here. I have atacama stands and have them filled with kiln dried sand from B&Q costs about £3 for several kilo's. BUT, the idea of the stands is to add mass and more importantly stiffness. Concrete is incredibly stiff as a material and should deaden vibration far more efficiently than lead or sand. When I get time at some point next year the sand in my stands will be removed and filled in with concrete as well. Just a thought.....

[Reid Malenfant]

I think we are all missing a trick here. I have atacama stands and have them filled with kiln dried sand from B&Q costs about £3 for several kilo's. BUT, the idea of the stands is to add mass and more importantly stiffness. Concrete is incredibly stiff as a material and should deaden vibration far more efficiently than lead or sand.
Wrong ;) Concrete has incredible stiffness & as a consequence has vitually no damping properties at all ;) Just go to your nearest indoor swimming pool & see what solid surfaces do to deaden sound... Not a lot..

Sand on the other hand has incredible damping properties as the individual grains find it difficult to push against each other, over a few grains in one direction there would be a heck of a lot of vibration dampening. This is why it was used on the old Wharfedale SFB (sand filled baffle).

Lead is fairly good at damping as it is resonably flexible as opposed to rigid. It's great at adding mass though which is another way of damping things.

Probably the best combination would be dry sand & lead shot :cool:

[goraman]

I think we are all missing a trick here. I have atacama stands and have them filled with kiln dried sand from B&Q costs about £3 for several kilo's. BUT, the idea of the stands is to add mass and more importantly stiffness. Concrete is incredibly stiff as a material and should deaden vibration far more efficiently than lead or sand. When I get time at some point next year the sand in my stands will be removed and filled in with concrete as well. Just a thought.....

Not true,concrete resonates lead shot and sand dose not.

[bobbasrah]

There are some odd things turning up here, so....
Andrew - please reconsider before doing as you propose -
If your speaker stands are not stiff enough, I'd be very surprised indeed... If so get different stands or concrete blocks to compare.
Concrete adds mass yes, but inside a tube the concrete shrinks away from the tube wall as it cures. This will create a small gap to develop defeating the objective of contact, possibly worse, leaving the concrete to rattle inside the tube. It will probably prove impossible to remove afterward.
If concrete were on the outside of the tube it would shrink, gripping it tightly, but it would look hideous, scratch the tubes, and again, how to remove it later? Adding mass to the bottom plate to lower the CofG would be a better solution IMHO, lead shot in bags, paviors, a sheet of lead, a slab? All removeable.

Resonance - Solid concrete and sand particles BOTH vibrate, but sand grains in a large grouping "bump" into each other causing rotation interference reduction and cancellation which absorb resonance, totally different behaviour to a monolithic concrete block containing the same sand particles in a matrix.
I have tried special graded quartz filter sand, washed and unwashed plain sand and noted no difference, but I may not have such acute hearing to detect it. Similar results with buckshot and sand mix, which had to be re-sifted afterward for safe disposal.
Ultimately, cheap sand can be emptied from the tube and dumped if moving house or selling them, saving backache. Replacement is easy to source at the other end unless moving to the Arctic.

Lead - Aside from adding high mass to the bottom of an overly lightweight stand (so why buy it?), I am still unconvinced by some sonic claims.
Plain lead shot is high density but because of the resultant voids achieve only partially dampening of metal tubes due to limited contact surfaces.
Lead shot/sand mix resolves this problem with sand filling the voids, but since lead has greater density than sand, the lead will fall faster than the sand to the bottom of the tube when filling it. Try it with a glass tumbler to prove the point.
Any remaining shot caught in the upper dry sand will eventually migrate under vibration to the lowest point (albeit over a long period). ie No matter how carefully you mix shot with sand, they can and do separate, so the shot ends up in the bottom.

ie -If you need mass and dampening, and need to hide it, drop sand and lead into the tube, topping up with sand. If you only need dampening just use sand.

[hermit]

Thanks for all your replies. I decided last night to fill lots of plastic bags - 2 with lead and 8 with cat litter - might as well use what's to hand. That done I set about taking off the top plate to fill the columns. No joy. One screw seems welded into place. The whole thing is now on hold till I can scrounge a power screwdriver :steam: - not so easy when you are a hermit!

[colinB]

Might be worth a soak in WD40. You never know its surprised me a few times with seized rusty bolts.

[Macca]

I talked with the folks at Sanus and this is the trick pre mix #9 or smaller shot(I used number 12) with kiln dried white sand 50/50 mine came from white sands New Mexico. .

Mmmm, radioactive sand :eyebrows:

[colinB]

By the way i think the litter and shot should be mixed together for best results.
Maybe Mark can confirm this.

[synsei]

You are going to have the same problem with lead shot migrating to the base of the upright with a kitty litter/lead shot mix. As has already been mentioned, Argos Play Sand comes in 15kg sacks and only costs £2.99 per sack. Argos will deliver it to your door for £5.50 regardless of quantity or you can go pick it up yourself and save a bit of wonga :cool:

[Reid Malenfant]

By the way i think the litter and shot should be mixed together for best results.
Maybe Mark can confirm this.
Yes, but see Daves post below... The cat litter is too lightweight to prevent the lead shot migrating - i tend to agree. Sand is quite dense, well far more dense than kitty litter for sure & as well as that the grains are much finer so everything will get filled up with sand. The kitty litter usually tends to be quite porous & large, in no way ideal..

You are going to have the same problem with lead shot migrating to the base of the upright with a kitty litter/lead shot mix. As has already been mentioned, Argos Play Sand comes in 15kg sacks and only costs £2.99 per sack. Argos will deliver it to your door for £5.50 regardless of quantity or you can go pick it up yourself and save a bit of wonga :cool:
In full agreement :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

i've just read the replies from my last post, I must admit that i'd had a bit of single malt before checking my posting, and i got a royal roasting :mad: There is probably a good reason why lead shot and dry sand contiunally make in innards of speaker stands :doh: Sorry guys, I'll try not posting such stupid responses :rolleyes::lol::lol:

[synsei]

Aaw Andrew, it wasn't a roasting mate, t'was just physics ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Aaw Andrew, it wasn't a roasting mate, t'was just physics ;)

Thing is mate I should feel even more ashamed as I use Physics everyday to make a living :eek:

[Reid Malenfant]

Thing is mate I should feel even more ashamed as I use Physics everyday to make a living :eek:
No need to Andrew, in all honesty it might not be too obvious what is actually required in the first place. Having built quite a few speakers etc I can tell you that things are not always as they seem & often the opposite of what you'd think you need in the way of damping is needed to do the trick..

Don't beat yourself up over it fella ;)

[synsei]

I guess it was a good single malt then Andrew ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I guess it was a good single malt then Andrew ;)

Dalwhinnie 15yr old, very recommended after a hard days graft, especially whilst listening to a slab of vinyl and hanging out in AOS:)

[synsei]

Oh lurvely!!! I do like a wee snifter of single malt as often as I am able :lol:

[goraman]

Mmmm, radioactive sand :eyebrows:

White sands is a missile base but some of it is mined for it's very dry fine white sand,I'll have to turn out the lights and see if it glows in the dark.

[goraman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5rBKrRNH4s WATCH IN FULL SCREEN.

[bobbasrah]

Wow Jeff that is one magnificent area. Must look eerie at night....The UK has it's own....Sellafield...
Andrew - That's a good malt of many. Get some brands over here, your own choice at an outrageous price unfortunately...
Corrosion in stands - Damp sand is a no-no. Same for beach sand, due to salt.

I did not look at the actual stands in question until now, so my apologies for being overly generalistic.
These stands are huge, and I'd guess the column is folded thin steel plate that can be deflected under finger pressure? Probably a screwed lap on the column rather than welded joint?
It will probably vibrate with a large void within rather than ring as a tube would.
Comment was made that the top plate was screwed onto the column. If it does not come off you could always drill a small hole through into the column to funnel in the infill and fit a bung afterward.
If the top plate is bolted, chances are that the baseplate is similar, allowing you to fill it upside down through a bigger hole (into a bin bag perhaps) before rebolting the baseplate and turning it over again.
It will be a lot of sand, and will be very heavy to tip back over.
If you do this upside down, you will want it to land exactly on the right spot as it will be a sod to move afterward.
Hope this helps...

[Jac Hawk]

I'm surprised that no on has mentioned the stuff that Atacama make themselves for filling stands, Atabites I think they're called, when i got my Atacama's i got 2 or 3 tubs of the Atabites for free, not really tried anything else, but the Atabites do add a lot of weight and sonically make the stands as dead as a post.

[synsei]

I'm surprised that no on has mentioned the stuff that Atacama make themselves for filling stands, Atabites I think they're called, when i got my Atacama's i got 2 or 3 tubs of the Atabites for free, not really tried anything else, but the Atabites do add a lot of weight and sonically make the stands as dead as a post.

...and at nearly 30 quid for a 9kg tub, best avoided IMO... :stalks:

[Rare Bird]

You'll be telling me you lot use spikes next :) castors rock

[Dingdong]

You'll be telling me you lot use spikes next :) castors rock

I thought they rolled;)

[synsei]

I thought they rolled;)

Give 'em enough bass and they'll rock and roll... :lolsign:

[Wakefield Turntables]

...and at nearly 30 quid for a 9kg tub, best avoided IMO... :stalks:

Seconded!

[Rare Bird]

Give 'em enough bass and they'll rock and roll... :lolsign:

The doppler effect is the best part :eyebrows:

[Jac Hawk]

...and at nearly 30 quid for a 9kg tub, best avoided IMO... :stalks:

True it's not cheap, but then i didn't have to pay for mine, like i said i haven't tried sand or lead, so i can't really comment on how good it is in comparison, and if you haven't tried atabites yourself how can you comment on it's performance or value? i have noticed people that use lead tend to mix it with sand, extra volume maybe?

[Wakefield Turntables]

True it's not cheap, but then i didn't have to pay for mine, like i said i haven't tried sand or lead, so i can't really comment on how good it is in comparison, and if you haven't tried atabites yourself how can you comment on it's performance or value? i have noticed people that use lead tend to mix it with sand, extra volume maybe?

your comments are interesting! I have atacama stands, could you elaborate the differences the atabites generated??

[synsei]

My comment was based on the experience gleaned from friends and acquaintances who've tried Atabites and have derived little or no benefit from using the product over sand. I bow to their experience.

[Reid Malenfant]

Aren't Atabites made of steel? If so i'd say lead & sand should be superior, as frankly steel has virtually no damping what so ever except by mass. Unlike lead or sand which will damp sounds by both mass & damping...

Hit a steel bar & it'll ring, hit a lead bar & you get a thud that stops dead... Whack sand & see how long the sound lasts after hitting it ;)

[Jac Hawk]

Not sure what they are made of i was told it was volcanic rock particles, but i could be wrong, it's meant to be about 3 times denser than sand though, all i can say is it does the job very well, but would i use it if i had to pay for it? Dunno, as has already been said it's not cheap.

[Jac Hawk]

your comments are interesting! I have atacama stands, could you elaborate the differences the atabites generated??

I've never used anything else, so it would be hard for me to do a comparison, all i can say is that it does what it says on the tin, my stands weigh a tonne and are dead as posts, which is all i'm bothered about,

[goraman]

You'll be telling me you lot use spikes next :) castors rock

Carefully balanced on the heads of sewing needles.:lolsign:

[Dingdong]

I'm still using Blu-tak. Spikes and posh feet too be installed tomorrow, though.

[Rare Bird]

For Christ sake please grab a copy of say any audio magazine from the late 60's all this bollox you lot are accustomed to doesnt exist

[Dingdong]

I didn't exist until the late sixties. Do your speakers roll away when you turn the volume up?

[bobbasrah]

Had to google atabites, as never heard of it until now. An intriguing "product", zinc plated high density flat discs. BUT.... Volcanic rock fashioned into flat discs and zinc plated?? Marketing hype?
These discs look very much like the punchings from a perforated steel sheet production line, skiploads of which would which would normally be collected to go back into the steel production mill. Clever marketing but pretty expensive repackaging if it is.

In this application it will prove effective however, as the density and small particle size interaction will make it pretty dead. eg - Steel filings do not ring when you hit them with a hammer, bar and sheet do.
Ultimately cost and availability issues will prevail. Sand is inert, high mass, cheap, readily available and easily disposable.

[The Grand Wazoo]

From the product description:


The Zinc coating reduces any oxidisation and degradation and enhances the visual aesthetics.

Because what it looks like is soooooooooo important!

[bobbasrah]

Yep.....
AV with a new twist....
And clear speaker stands was I recall another reference where such such aesthetics could be enhanced.... didn't mention the sound from the stands as transparent though....Possibly refined snake oil could fill any remaining voids further adding to aesthetic performance, eliminating corrosion completely....

I forgot about the "reduces any oxidisation and degradation" bit of the spiel, which is wonderful spin if it is indeed steel plate punchouts, as only the raw edge has no coating, but is implied as "enhanced" by post coating.....

All sales blurb/marketing hype aside, a usable "by"-product

[maxrob200]

I have used sand mixed with no.10 lead shot. Then small bolbs of Blu-Tack on each corner of top plate to isolate speaker and hold firm to stand. And beleive it or not small coins on the top corners of the enclosures can also tighten up the sound

[bobbasrah]

If you are using the same stands (Atacama?), very surprised you needed lead with that volume of sand..... It no doubt will work just fine.
Blutack is brilliant for limiting cabinet movement, but in some cases such decoupling can also introduce problems due to the gap between surfaces. Trial and error...
You intrigue me with last comment re the coins however....
Where exactly are these positioned and for what purpose????

[The Grand Wazoo]

And beleive it or not small coins on the top corners of the enclosures can also tighten up the sound

If you put fivers on the corners, does that make it even better, then?

[bobbasrah]

God almighty Chris, NO.... that would add 20 pounds to each speaker......

[Reid Malenfant]

:lolsign:

[worthingpagan]

i found adding toilet roll to the stands helped clean the shit out of the sound reproduction :glug: