View Full Version : The Kindle - Why?
The Black Adder
16-10-2011, 21:04
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/Misc/kindle.jpg
Why not . . . ? I love mine, but I still buy books as well. I have the best of both worlds and wouldn't be without it.
Beechwoods
16-10-2011, 21:13
It's lighter than a book especially if you are going on holiday. And it doesn't require loads of shelf-space to store all those paperbacks.
My wife loves her Kindle for all these reasons.
Reid Malenfant
16-10-2011, 21:15
Give me a book... You know the stuff - paper :eyebrows:
It doesn't crash :)
aquapiranha
16-10-2011, 21:28
you can get books for pennies at charity shops, or free from the library as long as you take them back. Books never need charging and don't break when you drop them either.
The Black Adder
16-10-2011, 21:33
Agreed Mark... I just don't get it...Thinner?... Lighter?... Wha!???
There are zillions of books out there, and zillions more this Christmas, you can't even give books away these days so why buy something that costs the earth as well as the environment?
IMO it's like buying a Prius so.. Buy a book, job done.
(my opinions lads... to be taken in a light hearted way. Your home may be at risk if you do not keep up re-payments, 14405% APR Typical)
Rare Bird
16-10-2011, 21:34
Give me a book... You know the stuff - paper :eyebrows:
:thumbsup:
. . . why buy something that costs the earth as well as the environment?
Costs the earth? Can't really agree with that Joe 110 quid is hardly the earth and the new one is only 86 :scratch:
All I can say is that since having a Kindle I am reading 4 or 5 times as many books as I did before and that's a good thing surely? The sizeable font is very good too, people who are challenged with poor eyesight can easily read a Kindle, old folk love them. One handed easy reading is a joy to behold, especially if you have weak wrists. My father is housebound but can get just about whatever book he wants instantly, we aren't all able bodied and able to get to a charity shop or store. Amazon sell more ebooks than the real thing now, so it speaks for itself ;)
It's the future whether you like them or not and ebooks are far kinder to the environment than chopping down trees - but each to their own.
My Mum & Dad are absolute book fanatics, their house is like a library (literally - ho, ho...) - but they have both taken to the kindle - the only problem is trying to get them to put them down and talk! I personally don't read enough to warrant one, but I think they are a fab idea, especially if you travel a lot and as Tim has said, if getting out and about is difficult or you need bigger print.
One handed easy reading is a joy to behold, especially if you have weak wrists.
Fnarr, fnarr
I think a lot depends on what type of books you read? Kindles are perfect for novels, but reference books IMO are better as the real thing. My music books and books with quality pictures in will always be in print too. I would never completely replace books with ebooks, but both together is a real bonus. I'm a convert for sure :)
Kindle; isn't that what you start fires with :eyebrows:
The Black Adder
16-10-2011, 22:15
yeeeah.. I see your point there but on the other foot £110 is the earth for a lot of people especially the elderly so, if this device is good for the elderly then it should be free for them...
It's a device thats being mass manufactured therefore has a bigger impact on the earth as paper sources these days are (mostly) regulated, infact it's an end user selling point.
Independent book shops are vanishing fast, this is bad as if they all vanish the only choice we will have is what Tesco (and others) give us. We can all live without another Jeremy Clarkson book can't we?... oh please agree!
I had a go with a Kindle and to be honest was not impressed at all. It felt tacky to me and (in quids terms) worth about £20 and my favorite book ever cost me that and it's tangibly and visually more exciting let alone a bloody good read.
:o
Vinyleyes
17-10-2011, 03:12
It's horses for courses .. I travel a lot .. spend a lot of time in airports, hanging around .. No way do I want 2 or 3 paperbacks filling up my carry on luggage. Plus I can buy a book if I am in the middle of nowhere and I do not have to carry a bunch of books to get me through a 6 week tour. It just downloads no matter where you are ( almost) at no internet charge in whatever country you are in. No waiting until I get back to "civilisation." For me it's a complete no brainer ... I love it. Plus the application transfers onto your Iphone and computer.
Charity shops, libraries ... environment .. you are joking .. :-)
If you never leave your own back yard then maybe you don't need one. The same argument translates to those who eschew Iphones and their ilk .. for me they are a godsend ... I no longer need to lug a computer round with me and I can stay in instant touch with family and friends wherever I am in the world. And with a son in Uni and elderly frail parents that is indeed a very important plus point.
Whenever people criticise devices like these they tend to look only at how the device relates to their own situation and lifestyle .... perhaps one should consider that for other people living different kinds of lives then they can be very useful indeed .... like I said ... horses for courses .. :)
As soon as the Kindle can do magazines (like the Zino reader) I'll be buying a colour one.
The Black Adder
17-10-2011, 07:22
[Nah, sorry chaps... I can't get my head around this one. The book is there to read and their is lots of choice. Just because it's digital does not mean it's any better than the real thing. I personally don't read 3 books at once (novels) and paperbacks take up minimum space.
The Kindle is a device made for people on the move for sure but so is a book, you can scrunch it, bend it tear it in to a trilogy if you really wanted. There is so much choice out there and I simply don't want Amazon or Tesco to tell me what to read.
It's simply not worth the money or the effort and I love the digital age.
I can completely understand the reasons for owning one of these Kindles, which Brian, amongst others have highlighted. And if it is of major benefit to your family and you, and you can afford one, then why indeed not have one.
However, I do think that we should also look at the bigger picture and examine what impact our seemingly insatiable desire for convenience these days is having on traditional (small) businesses, and those whose livelihoods are reliant on them, and indeed the impact that this is having on society as a whole.
Brian said:
Whenever people criticise devices like these they tend to look only at how the device relates to their own situation and lifestyle .... perhaps one should consider that for other people living different kinds of lives then they can be very useful indeed...
Yes, I agree. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, mate, but have you also considered what cumulative impact one's lifestyle decisions have on others, and whether the (arguably) selfish desire for convenience and looking after what's best for ourselves, is good for society as a whole and the healthy development of our future generations?
Or does no-one care about that now, and it's simply a case of shrugging one's shoulders and shunning any responsibility for our lifestyle decisions, on the premise that we won't be around to witness what happens with our planet once we're no longer alive, and in the meantime going around blindly doing what's best for ourselves, leaving others to worry about what happens with the impact of that in future, perhaps when it's then too late to fix things??
We've already discussed elsewhere the hugely detrimental impact on-line buying has had on independent record stores, with 100s of them being forced to close their doors, not to mention the similar impact out of town supermarkets and retail parks have had on many town centres, turning them into ghost towns.
Is that what people want to happen too with our independent book shops and retail stores?
Do people no longer value living in a proper community, where real people do shopping inside real shops, or are we happy to live in a society where town centres and a retail environment is a thing of the past, and we're all cocooned inside our homes, glued to our computers like zombies, or walking around the place with an iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Kindle, and good knows what else strapped to us, living in our own little virtual world, oblivious to our surroundings and interacting with no-one around us, as a result of being completely dehumanised by technology?
Don't get me wrong, modern technology, when used in the right way, is a marvellous thing, but the key is for US not to be a slave to it, but rather IT be a slave to US. At the moment I believe that, in general, there is a gross imbalance, mostly because of peer pressure and the superficial and selfish desire to own the latest 'must have'.
I'm afraid that I worry about what society as a whole is slowly becoming by allowing technology (and its associated gadgetry) to be an all-encompassing part of people's lives, and fear for the consequences. What sort of world are we building for our future generations?
Marco.
One thing the Kindle is not good for is when you're travelling, have a dodgy tummy and there's no bog paper.....you then speed read before tearing out the pages!
I've said this before but I have visited large shopping malls in the USA with not a single book store in them. You used to be able to find at least a Waldensteins but not everywhere now.
I'm glad that this is not the case in the UK (yet) but could it only be a matter of time? Borders was a great place to sift through books and decide on purchases but they are now gone. Can Waterstones hold up even though Ottakar's have gone? Then there is the question of stock. The reason that HMV are hopeless is that they have no range, and don't even get me started on classical music.
I'm all for support of small book and record stores, but we're fighting a trend against reading and collecting music.
Thing Fish
17-10-2011, 10:36
I love reading books and always have a big pile of them on my bedside table.
I can't quite make up my mind about the kindle. It seems to be convenient but lacks a certain something over a real book. This of course may change over time but at the moment I would still opt for the real thing.
When traveling to work I often listen to audio books on my iPhone. Spike Milligan reads his own books and its chuffing hilarious...:)
Rare Bird
17-10-2011, 11:02
''Daddy what are those strange paper things on you shelf''? Their books son, cum here sit on the sofa & watch this old film called 'Fahrenheit 451' i have i think you'll like it (thats if i can put my finger on it, gimmi ten mins i cant just click on a mouse & find it like you young uns), theirs lots of those funny paper things on fire you know. ''Daddy, don't you have some really funny things, video tapes! Reel To Reels! Vinyl Records! & now Books! what ever next''? Don't worry son their this old sayin' ''What goes around, comes around'' in most cases anywayz
Hopefully this won't happen....but imagine the chaos with nuclear EMP. If we have power those of us with vinyl, valves and books will be ok until the radiation gets us.
The Black Adder
17-10-2011, 11:25
well.. maybe the hardcore bookworm masses will rise and have a mass Kindle burning in the future :o
''Daddy what are those strange paper things on you shelf''? Their books son, cum here sit on the sofa & watch this old film called 'Fahrenheit 451' i have i think you'll like it (thats if i can put my finger on it, gimmi ten mins i cant just click on a mouse & find it like you young uns), theirs lots of those funny paper things on fire you know. ''Daddy, don't you have some really funny things, video tapes! Reel To Reels! Vinyl Records! & now Books! what ever next''? Don't worry son their this old sayin' ''What goes around, comes around'' in most cases anywayz
Lol - I like it :)
Marco.
Would anyone like to have a go at answering the question I posed:
Is our obsession with new technology dehumanising our society?
Dehumanise: to make somebody less human by taking away his or her individuality, the creative and interesting aspects of his or her personality, or his or her compassion and sensitivity towards others.
I'm curious to know what people think - perhaps this deserves a separate thread of its own? :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-10-2011, 13:33
you can get books for pennies at charity shops, or free from the library as long as you take them back. Books never need charging and don't break when you drop them either.
+1
Kindles the spawn of the devil......
Books are tactile, sensual, an experience that both tantalizes the visual and olfactory senses; as well as the mind. What is this madness of paying money to own nothing, both music and now books....a fool and their money are easy parted, at least in the past you got something for your money now its........virtual :doh:
The joy and thrill and delight a customer got earlier in the book shop I work in seeing and handling a Book of Hours from 1390....something a bloody kindle can never do.
For the international traveler who never settles in one place and loves to read great, anyone else......buy a book or two and stop being bloody lazy and easily lead....
I hear some people these days referring to Books as 'Kindle back ups'....:lol:
Regards D S D L
Like Marco, I have reservations about this seemingly endless influx of convenience technology into our lives.
I’m not particularly concerned with the “de-humanising” aspect of it, probably because I’m not sure exactly what this means in this case. But the endless consumption of short life products to bolster an economy whose success and prosperity is based around limitless growth just seems foolhardy to me.
Social participation through electronic media would at first glance seem to have some great benefits. Just as an example, it must be great for those who have mobility or health problems. Yes, its great to have access to “news” and images from around the world but more often than not its information that while interesting doesn’t have a direct bearing on our lives and concerns events we have no control over while local issues which perhaps we could influence seem trivial by comparison and less worthy of our attention.
I personally won’t be mourning the demise of the high street shopping experience mainly because I can think of more worthwhile things to do with my time than spend money on stuff. I’m not big on consumerism.
I’m going to stick with my books of which I have quite a few. The kindle may be great in that it offers easy access to literature but why do I have this sneaking suspicion that it won’t encourage people to read any more than they did.
I’ll get my reactionary old bastards sticker on the way out thank you :eyebrows:
Spectral Morn
17-10-2011, 13:42
I can completely understand the reasons for owning one of these Kindles, which Brian, amongst others have highlighted. And if it is of major benefit to your family and you, and you can afford one, then why indeed not have one.
However, I do think that we should also look at the bigger picture and examine what impact our seemingly insatiable desire for convenience these days is having on traditional (small) businesses, and those whose livelihoods are reliant on them, and indeed the impact that this is having on society as a whole.
Brian said:
Yes, I agree. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, mate, but have you also considered what cumulative impact one's lifestyle decisions have on others, and whether the (arguably) selfish desire for convenience and looking after what's best for ourselves, is good for society as a whole and the healthy development of our future generations?
Or does no-one care about that now, and it's simply a case of shrugging one's shoulders and shunning any responsibility for our lifestyle decisions, on the premise that we won't be around to witness what happens with our planet once we're no longer alive, and in the meantime going around blindly doing what's best for ourselves, leaving others to worry about what happens with the impact of that in future, perhaps when it's then too late to fix things??
We've already discussed elsewhere the hugely detrimental impact on-line buying has had on independent record stores, with 100s of them being forced to close their doors, not to mention the similar impact out of town supermarkets and retail parks have had on many town centres, turning them into ghost towns.
Is that what people want to happen too with our independent book shops and retail stores?
Do people no longer value living in a proper community, where real people do shopping inside real shops, or are we happy to live in a society where town centres and a retail environment is a thing of the past, and we're all cocooned inside our homes, glued to our computers like zombies, or walking around the place with an iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Kindle, and good knows what else strapped to us, living in our own little virtual world, oblivious to our surroundings and interacting with no-one around us, as a result of being completely dehumanised by technology?
Don't get me wrong, modern technology, when used in the right way, is a marvellous thing, but the key is for US not to be a slave to it, but rather IT be a slave to US. At the moment I believe that, in general, there is a gross imbalance, mostly because of peer pressure and the superficial and selfish desire to own the latest 'must have'.
I'm afraid that I worry about what society as a whole is slowly becoming by allowing technology (and its associated gadgetry) to be an all-encompassing part of people's lives, and fear for the consequences. What sort of world are we building for our future generations?
Marco.
Agree 100% with the above.
Regards D S D L
I love reading books and always have a big pile of them on my bedside table.
I can't quite make up my mind about the kindle. It seems to be convenient but lacks a certain something over a real book. This of course may change over time but at the moment I would still opt for the real thing.
When traveling to work I often listen to audio books on my iPhone. Spike Milligan reads his own books and its chuffing hilarious...:)
I felt exactly the same way Dave until I received a Kindle as a gift last Christmas. I own over 3000 science fiction and fantasy books, as well as several hundred from other genres, mainly political thrillers, and it is becoming very difficult to find room for them all. I am a prolific reader and can steam through an average length novel in a couple of days if it's a good 'un which meant I was buying 2 or 3 novels a week.
The Kindle has solved this problem entirely and despite my initial misgivings about it not feeling like a book, I've found I actually prefer reading from the Kindle these days. Ok, so I'm missing some wonderful cover artwork but hey, the Kindle is more than a convenience for me, it is a necessity, especially as my failing health precludes me from browsing in book stores these days.
As for independent book stores, what I'm finding is that the more switched on proprietors are moving their stores onto the web, thus reducing their overheads and allowing them to stay in business. I'm sorry guys but this is the 21st century and people have to move with the times or be left behind... :eyebrows:
Hi John,
I’m not particularly concerned with the “de-humanising” aspect of it, probably because I’m not sure exactly what this means in this case.
It's explained in this paragraph, from my earlier post, particularly by the bits in bold (also see the dictionary definition I quoted earlier):
Do people no longer value living in a proper community, where real people do shopping inside real shops, or are we happy to live in a society where town centres and a retail environment is a thing of the past, and we're all cocooned inside our homes, glued to our computers like zombies, or walking around the place with an iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Kindle, and goodness knows what else strapped to us, living in our own little virtual world, oblivious to our surroundings and interacting with no-one around us, as a result of being dehumanised by new technology?
Basically, is all the 'stuff' we seem to insist on as forming a vital part of our lives these days stopping us from behaving like human beings and using the skills we were born with, in terms of communicating with our fellow human beings, and if so, is this having a detrimental impact on communities and society as a whole?
Your thoughts please (and indeed anyone else's)? :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
17-10-2011, 14:28
As for independent book stores, what I'm finding is that the more switched on proprietors are moving their stores onto the web, thus reducing their overheads and allowing them to stay in business. I'm sorry guys but this is the 21st century and people have to move with the times or be left behind... :eyebrows:
Switched on sure but only because they have to. It's not of choice they have to move online it's simply the big boys taking over. It's a snowball effect and ok it's here to stay but in my books (excuse the pun) it's another part of the fabric of society thats failing the general public once again...
We might as well seal our mouths up with super glue and just rattle on a keyboard.
Unfortunately there's no stopping progress Joe and as nostalgic as we might get about our High Street, and believe me I get as nostalgic as the next man, it is way more convenient to shop online. I wouldn't have the system I have now for instance if it wasn't for ebay and the internet ;)
Do people no longer value living in a proper community, where real people do shopping inside real shops, or are we happy to live in a society where town centres and a retail environment is a thing of the past, and we're all cocooned inside our homes, glued to our computers like zombies, or walking around the place with an iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Kindle, and good knows what else strapped to us, living in our own little virtual world, oblivious to our surroundings and interacting with no-one around us, as a result of being completely dehumanised by technology?
It's a generational difference, I think. I observe the 11-18 year olds in my school behave in the 'electronic zombie' style you describe above quite a lot. Pupils will often send each other text messages when they are across the room from each other. The art of conversation is difficult for them when they lack the skills to concisely tell me in a single sentence what their issue is. Written spelling and grammar are appalling, in this case not just from the pupils but from the young teachers too.
I do not observe this behaviour from my generation. We are all old enough to remember times before the pocket calculator existed and we tend to appreciate technology as an adjunct to our lives, not to replace social skills or interaction.
We do seem to be moving inexorably towards the type of society Ray Bradbury describes in his short story, The Pedestrian... :eyebrows:
The Pedestrian.pdf (http://mikejmoran.typepad.com/files/pedestrian-by-bradbury-1.pdf)
Omg Martin, what would your Lords and Masters, or Mistress in your case, have to say about your comments regarding their lovely debutant wannabe young ladies and in school hours as well :lolsign:
They would likely agree with me! I'm not saying anything I don't say in the staff room, especially when I validate their reports and find them full of errors :)
Vinyleyes
17-10-2011, 15:35
Well this is turning into a far reaching thread indeed... :) ,,,,
I understand everyone's point of view here but I think we are going too far to bring the Kindle into this particular argument below ... I know we all have to start somewhere but I think there are far more important ways we can start cleaning up our lives before we give up our Kindle ... In fact one could argue that the Kindle is a massive resource saver.
Yes, I agree. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, mate, but have you also considered what cumulative impact one's lifestyle decisions have on others, and whether the (arguably) selfish desire for convenience and looking after what's best for ourselves, is good for society as a whole and the healthy development of our future generations?
Or does no-one care about that now, and it's simply a case of shrugging one's shoulders and shunning any responsibility for our lifestyle decisions, on the premise that we won't be around to witness what happens with our planet once we're no longer alive, and in the meantime going around blindly doing what's best for ourselves, leaving others to worry about what happens with the impact of that in future, perhaps when it's then too late to fix things??
I welcome Marco's idea to start a new thread around these topics .. because it is something I do think about a lot .. and one that we could all contribute ideas to lessen our environmental impact. Maybe we could even call it .. AOS .. for the Art of Sustainability ... :lol: ... and we would all contribute ( preferably researched) ideas to help with this. And ..... even more importantly .... view with an open mind the more far reaching ideas that may be thrown up.
Before we start I must say that I do not buy into the politicians crap about lessening our carbon footprint ... This is just a roundabout scheme to find more ways to tax us .. and put the responsibility onto the man in the street whilst totally diverting attention from the Multinational Corporations who are systematically poisoning and destroying the planet that gives us ALL life. And who of course have a greater carbon footprint than all of us put together ... These are the things we need to learn about ..
I agree wholeheartedly with Marco's concerns here ...
Do people no longer value living in a proper community, where real people do shopping inside real shops, or are we happy to live in a society where town centres and a retail environment is a thing of the past, and we're all cocooned inside our homes, glued to our computers like zombies, or walking around the place with an iPod, iPad, iPhone, and Kindle, and good knows what else strapped to us, living in our own little virtual world, oblivious to our surroundings and interacting with no-one around us, as a result of being completely dehumanised by technology?
Don't get me wrong, modern technology, when used in the right way, is a marvellous thing, but the key is for US not to be a slave to it, but rather IT be a slave to US. At the moment I believe that, in general, there is a gross imbalance, mostly because of peer pressure and the superficial and selfish desire to own the latest 'must have'.
I'm afraid that I worry about what society as a whole is slowly becoming by allowing technology (and its associated gadgetry) to be an all-encompassing part of people's lives, and fear for the consequences. What sort of world are we building for our future generations?
So if anyone is up for a sustainability and just generally contributions towards a better way of living thread then let's see what we can all find ... and maybe .. just maybe .. encourage each other to adopt a few of them .. ;) ,, .......... But this would have to be a very OPEN MINDED thread ....... Over to you guys ,,,,
Unfortunately there's no stopping progress Joe and as nostalgic as we might get about our High Street, and believe me I get as nostalgic as the next man, it is way more convenient to shop online.
Yes, Dave, but ask yourself why these days convenience seems to be the bee-all-and-end-all, and what that says about the state of our lives?
I presume you'd also advocate popping some processed crap into a microwave to eat, than actually cook a proper meal yourself from fresh ingredients, simply because the former is more 'convenient'? :rolleyes:
If things are to improve, we have to eradicate such a lazy attitude.
I'll comment more later, particularly in reference to Martin's post, which raises some interesting and key points.
Marco.
twelvebears
17-10-2011, 17:42
I don't get anti-tech threads, especially among those who must have more gadgets than most.
I love books but I'll give you two 'Why?s'
15 year old who's interest in tech and the Kindle got him starting to read for FUN! *shock*
On hols in little village in Spain having a wonderful 2 weeks of sun, peace, great food and reading BUT got there and back via budget airline. Unlimited books without any luggage issues. Also I bought several whilst there over the free 3G connection.
You assume too much Marco :ner: I'm no lover of microwaved food and prefer a proper cooked meal. In fact I used to enjoy creative cooking immensely before my accident. My Mum, God bless her soul, was a professional chef who worked in many of the grand hotels in London, and served her apprenticeship in St Barts hospital in the city, back in the days when hospitals cooked their own food and took pride in doing so, and it was she who taught me the finer points of culinary creativity. I would also state that my darling girlfriend is also an excellent cook ;)
Now that I find it difficult to stand for long periods or walk any distance I've needed to adapt my shopping habits to suit my circumstances. This has meant I can no longer pop into town and browse the sort of shops that I did, but I find browsing online just as pleasurable, sometimes even more so. My laptop is the High Street for me out of necessity. We do our food shopping online as well purely for convenience and I really don't care what anyone thinks on that score.
It's very laudable to promote greener thinking, but for some it is just not possible to adhere to the type of living that militant ecologists would choose for us. I choose to live my own life in as fulfilling a way as my disabilities allow and I get annoyed and disappointed with those who attempt to push their own values on people and who think they are 'holier than thou'.
It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of AoS members such as Mark Grant, David Brook or Stanley Beresford who have developed their wonderful businesses online and whose businesses might not have been as successful as they have without the existence of the internet... :cool:
I don't get anti-tech threads
Neither do I when we're doing it on an online forum :lol:
Neither do I when we're doing it on an online forum :lol:
I was thinking the same thing Martin, it does seem a little silly doesn't it? :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
17-10-2011, 18:16
I don't get anti-tech threads, especially among those who must have more gadgets than most.
Neither do I when we're doing it on an online forum :lol:
There is a difference i think. What Marco is trying to get at is that we are getting lazier in some respects as well as to an extent disconnecting ourselves from our local communities. To quote someone that used to be in charge of this country "there is no such thing as society"... Well it's certainly beginning to look that way :rolleyes:
As to the comment by Steve, well it's not exactly convenient is it? :eyebrows: I mean we have loads of boxes & racks etc which take a good while to all switch on, convenience is a Bose lifestyle system innit :lol:
@ Martin, i agree & we appear to have our own little community here which has been brought together due to modern technology. In a way this is happening all over cyberspace rather than in neighbourhoods.
I may not have made myself clear by seeing the funny side of the tech thing. For me, this community would not have otherwise been possible. I have met and made friends with like-minded people here on AoS who are passionate about music and hi-fi and whom I never would have otherwise come across. We're none of us at the age where tech takes over, we all have homes and most of us have partners and families all forming our very real environments. And yet tech has brought us together.
I simply do not see it as a bad thing.
I don’t think anyone is saying technology as such is a bad thing.
What some may be saying is that the dependency/preference to use technology in some aspects of social interaction rather than get out and meet and talk to people and participate in person in a local community may not be the ideal way forward; or something like that.
Of course, there are advantages (maybe :eyebrows: )such as the interaction here on AoS which wouldn’t be possible without technology.
Something to think about perhaps.
Andre wrote that he had come to detest some of the people here on AoS.
I have some sympathy with his view.
I don’t think this is because any of us are particularly detestable people, rather more in this cyber environment, it is more difficult to get a full picture of the people one communicates with and I suggest that in real life, one wouldn’t end up dealing with such a diverse range of opinions and personalities as one does in a net chat environment.
In real life, you just wouldn’t see these people and concentrate on those you were comfortable with.
So, there is one downside, internet communication in an environment such as AoS forces people to adapt to others when in real life one wouldn’t have this problem, you would just walk away.
So no, its not all wonderful and meeting people on the internet is a pretty poor substitute for real friendships and social interaction.
Very wise words there John +1 ;)
Reid Malenfant
17-10-2011, 19:29
Very wise words there John +1 ;)
I'll go along with that to + another 1 ;)
. . . meeting people on the internet is a pretty poor substitute for real friendships and social interaction.
100% agree there John and are we really 'meeting' people? I'm starting to feel I have a lot more in common with André and also have some sympathy for his views, which has surprised me TBH :scratch:
Reid Malenfant
17-10-2011, 19:50
100% agree there John and are we really 'meeting' people? I'm starting to feel I have a lot more in common with André and also have some sympathy for his views, which has surprised me TBH :scratch:
No you're not "meeting" people unless you actually get together in reality :eyebrows:
I think myself & Dave (synsei) have gotten together now at least 4 or 5 times in the "real" world rather than cyberspace. I know him better than any other member on here simply because i have met him personally & on a good few occasions. There is a big difference, i'm sure i'll meet up with Dave on numerous occasions in the future :)
I think body language has a lot to do with it too, or should I say the lack of it. In a real world environment, when you meet an individual or group of people, and before there is any conversation, one is already reading personalities subconsciously using body language.
Online, this vital attribute is lost to us and under the wrong circumstances perfectly innocent comments can provoke some very tense exchanges. I know I'm not immune to this and I've been quite ashamed of my reaction to a couple of comments on AoS since I've been a member (apologies to all concerned). I am the most non abrasive personality in real life, or at least I hope I am, and I do try to adopt the same attitude when I'm commenting on forums. On rare occasions though, maybe it has been a bad day or whatever, I do find myself getting a little het up. For example, I've stopped visiting the Three Little Words thread due to some very chauvinistic and bigoted comments I've read on there. This belies Johns comments a little because in a real life situation I'd be down on the perpetrator like a ton of bricks if the situation warranted such action. It's made all the worse because I'm pretty sure the regular perpetrators wouldn't behave that way in company. I've noticed Maria (Radio) hasn't posted for a while and she stopped posting at the same time I bowed out of that thread where she had also been contributing, and I'm pretty sure it will have been for similar reasons to why I vowed not to post there again.
I think we all need to step back sometimes and take a long, hard look at how we behave on AoS and maybe other forums too, and ask ourselves: Would I deem my comments to be inappropriate if I was actually with these people?
WOStantonCS100
17-10-2011, 22:53
Andre wrote that he had come to detest some of the people here on AoS.
I have some sympathy with his view.
From time to time we all get peeved by something someone posts (I think I even got miffed at you once, John :o ); ...sorry 'bout that. :) Perhaps the odd man out; but, I'm afraid I've no sympathy for that view. Though I'm sure this post will now firmly plant me in the list of "detestables", if I wasn't already; I've to say that I would hope before I ever get to the point of being that unhappy with people on any forum, I would just quietly slip away from it. Detest people? What for? Seems like a grand waste of time when that energy could be better put towards greater understanding EVEN if not a greater appreciation. I have a lot to learn and I can't do that with a closed mind. The nature of the beast means my feelings may get nicked every now and then and that's okay provided I've learned something. Seems to me like consistently disrespectful persons usually wind up getting booted from forums anyway, just have to bide your time.
Hi Martin,
It's a generational difference, I think. I observe the 11-18 year olds in my school behave in the 'electronic zombie' style you describe above quite a lot. Pupils will often send each other text messages when they are across the room from each other.
I agree. And I've also watched this ridiculous type of behaviour and shook my head in disbelief, as indeed does my wife on a daily basis, in her position as an art and IT lecturer at a local college, where she mainly teaches teenagers. I believe that such behaviour in the majority of the young is now endemic as a result of the dehumanising I'm referring to, and acts as ample proof that what I'm saying is happening is very real!
Therefore, because of the type of behaviour you describe, we're slowly losing the ability to communicate face-to-face with each other, and in many instances, spawning a nation of inarticulate introverts.... And if this situation is as widespread now in our young people as evidence suggests, and they represent the future, what state will our world be in, in 40, 50 or 100 years time??
Something has to be done NOW in order to halt the trend, and indeed try and reverse it; and a major part of that 'something' is proper education in the home by parents, during the early years of a child's emotional and intellectual development - well before teachers are given a near impossible task later in life to turn these kids into educated and confident adults, who will later go on to achieve something genuinely worthwhile in life.
Oh, and also shunning the use of technological gadgetry which significantly hinders the development of a child's face-to-face communication and writing skills. I'm afraid that mobile phones have a lot to answer for in that respect!
The art of conversation is difficult for them when they lack the skills to concisely tell me in a single sentence what their issue is.
Proof positive yet again that what I'm referring to is a very real problem. I'm afraid that the "electronic zombie" syndrome, you referred to earlier, is rife in the majority of today's teenagers!
Written spelling and grammar are appalling, in this case not just from the pupils but from the young teachers too.
Indeed, based on the evidence I've seen, and it is extensive, as I sometimes help my wife mark the English homework of her pupils (bearing in mind that those are people who have left secondary school with supposedly some form of an education), the general standard of grammar and spelling amongst teenagers now is unquestionably appalling. It is symptomatic of the widespread educational malaise in today's society.
And I'm afraid that the 'dumbing-down' of the English language, with the use of 'text lingo', and how poor written communication skills have then proliferated as a result of the popularity amongst teenagers of participating on social networking sites, such as Facebook and Twitter, where grammatically unstructured and orthographically incorrect written communication amongst members is the norm, is a major contributory factor as to why the standard of grammar and spelling amongst teenagers today is so appalling.
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect them to go around spouting the Queen's English all of the time, heaven forbid, but when called upon to write or speak formally, and with some conviction, our young people need to have the necessary skills in order to perform such tasks. And, IMO, that goal is not being best served when today's fashionable 'toys' are stifling them using their brains properly.
I do not observe this behaviour from my generation. We are all old enough to remember times before the pocket calculator existed and we tend to appreciate technology as an adjunct to our lives, not to replace social skills or interaction.
I agree, although when I was in school, the use of pocket calculators was widespread. Your bit in bold carries the same message as I was portraying earlier, but I do think that there are numerous examples of middle-aged people today trying desperately hard to cling onto their long-lost youth, by buying the latest 'must have' gadgets, in order not to appear as old as their age dictates..... ;)
I find this highly amusing!
Marco.
but I do think that there are numerous examples of middle-aged people today trying desperately hard to cling onto their long-lost youth, by buying the latest 'must have' gadgets, in order not to appear as old as their age dictates..... ;)
Oh yes indeed, and sometimes I have to laugh when yet another middle-aged person obtains an iPhone or iPad and starts behaving twenty years younger. I continue to do my bit to resist, especially when it comes to text speak. I simply will not use shortened words or partial sentences and my son and I used to amuse each other by using practically alien languages when sending each other messages.
The interesting thing is: a few years down the line and he now uses correct grammar and complete sentences. So is there hope that it's just an enormous phase?
Hi Dave,
You assume too much Marco :ner: I'm no lover of microwaved food and prefer a proper cooked meal. In fact I used to enjoy creative cooking immensely before my accident. My Mum, God bless her soul, was a professional chef who worked in many of the grand hotels in London, and served her apprenticeship in St Barts hospital in the city, back in the days when hospitals cooked their own food and took pride in doing so, and it was she who taught me the finer points of culinary creativity. I would also state that my darling girlfriend is also an excellent cook ;)
Excellent; and I'm glad to hear it. Not enough people today, IMO, place serious importance on the quality and nutritional value of the food that they eat, even when they can afford to do so, ahead of other things which in reality are nowhere near as vital! Your health should always come first.
Now that I find it difficult to stand for long periods or walk any distance I've needed to adapt my shopping habits to suit my circumstances. This has meant I can no longer pop into town and browse the sort of shops that I did, but I find browsing online just as pleasurable, sometimes even more so. My laptop is the High Street for me out of necessity. We do our food shopping online as well purely for convenience and I really don't care what anyone thinks on that score.
I didn't know that, mate, and I'm sorry to hear it. That of course puts a whole different perspective on the matter.
My comments were aimed at able people, earning good money, who still put convenience before quality, in many aspects of their life, and in many instances to the detriment of what is good for society as a whole.
Convenience, convenience, bloody convenience, is all that seems to matter to folk these days. I hear of precious little desire to strive for quality, individuality and excellence in all things, all of which mean a great deal to me.
Putting effort into carrying out the important things in life unfortunately appears to have taken a back seat in preference for what is quick and easy! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Oh yes indeed, and sometimes I have to laugh when yet another middle-aged person obtains an iPhone or iPad and starts behaving twenty years younger.
Hilarious, isn't it? What they don't seem to realise is that to others their ridiculous behaviour achieves precisely the opposite of what they intended! :doh: :eyebrows:
I could say quite a lot for example, in that respect, about what I read about file-based music reproduction from the resident 'wrinklies' on the HDD forum! ;)
The interesting thing is: a few years down the line and he now uses correct grammar and complete sentences. So is there hope that it's just an enormous phase?
We can indeed hope! For the sake of our future generations, I hope you are right.
Marco.
Neither do I when we're doing it on an online forum :lol:
Indeed. The irony isn't lost on me either, but like I said, it's all about US controlling technology, and not allowing it to be the other way round. We must resist embracing rampant consumerism, and above all, not succumb to materialistic peer pressure.
Contributing to discussions on AoS and managing the site, occasionally shopping on line, Googling sometimes for bits and pieces, and using my laptop to produce invoices for my business, is about the only reason these days for me owning a computer!
And there is precious little of what one could call 'must-have gadgetry' in our house, so we're hardly being adversely controlled by technology. Indeed it is quite the opposite: we use it only when we really need to.
Marco.
Oh really guys, this language snobbery is just so, well snobby :rolleyes:
The purpose of language is to communicate. Our language is dynamic.
Text speak is eminently suitable for the medium. There may be a problem when the abbreviations get used in person to person communication I will grant you, but is there any evidence that this is happening?
Are we really still judging a persons worth on their grasp of English grammar and spelling? It’s a bit like the reluctance of the BBC to employ people with regional accents in the past.
I’ll tell you what, how about an automatic spelling and grammar correction program for mobile phones? Will that appease your delicate sensibilities? :lolsign:
Hi John,
Oh really guys, this language snobbery is just so, well snobby :rolleyes:
The purpose of language is to communicate.
Indeed, but what happens when the language being used fails to communicate, as a result of it being very badly used?
When correcting the English homework of the pupils my wife teaches at college (in order to help ease her ridiculous workload with marking), it is often necessary for me to read what they've written three or four times, in order to get the gist of what it is they are trying to say, such is their inability to use commas to construct sentences correctly, or paragraphs, amongst other things (an unfortunate by-product of communicating mainly by sending short text messages in slang on mobile phones), before I can even attempt to perform the required task of correcting their grammar, punctuation and spelling! :doh:
Teenagers may indeed be able to communicate amongst themselves in their garbled 'text lingo', but what happens when they have to go into the big bad world, amongst adults, to find a job, especially when they have to write a meaningful CV? "Im ded brill at this stuff, m8 innit so gissa job like", may not be enough to impress prospective employers! ;)
This is got bugger all to do with snobbery. It's about trying to address the existence of a very real problem, not helped, IMO, by the overuse of some forms of modern technology.
I’ll tell you what, how about an automatic spelling and grammar correction program for mobile phones? Will that appease your delicate sensibilities?
Lol - I can assure you that my sensibilities are far from being "delicate"! :eyebrows:
It's simply a subject I'm passionate about. Your suggestion might help, but chances are that they would simply bypass the spell-checking and continue regardless in their favoured 'text speak'.
I'd rather fix the problem at source (better education at home by parents, before state or private schooling begins - it's amazing the academic discipline you can instil in children by, for example, giving them decent books to read at the earliest possible age, rather than merely sitting them down in front of the TV or Playstation, whilst you munch Doritos, watching Jeremy Kyle...), than attempt to lock the door later, after the horse has bolted, as it were.
Marco.
I’m going to come back to this Marco but in the meantime, why for example isn’t such a fuss being made of the “average” student being unable to manipulate a partial differential equation, or explain how a light bulb works, or show a working knowledge of Keynesian economics?
Being able to manipulate the English language is indeed a useful tool but having the ability to communicate in a “correct” manner seems a bit pointless if the person talks, or writes, a load of ill informed and badly educated and often irrelevant shite.
I suggest that it’s because of the values our education system was originally built around and for who it was designed to serve.
I’m going to come back to this Marco but in the meantime, why for example isn’t such a fuss being made of the “average” student being unable to manipulate a partial differential equation, or explain how a light bulb works, or show a working knowledge of Keynesian economics?
I guess that because being able to read, write properly, and at least perform basic arithmetic, are fundamentally important human skills in order to facilitate one's successful development and survival in civilised society.
The other stuff you mention, in comparison, in terms of its overall importance for most, pales into insignificance! You do come across sometimes, John, as if you have an enormous chip on your shoulder, and that my friend, really does you no favours ;)
Marco.
Being able to communicate effectively is a necessary condition for other skills, indeed it's a foundation need. Having a broad knowledge of other areas would also be a good thing.
Communication doesn't need to to be perfect but it shouldn't be poor either. Some of the current fads are just plain lazy, which is an insult to the recipient.
I'd rather fix the problem at source (better education at home by parents, before state or private schooling begins - it's amazing the educational discipline you can instil in children by, for example, giving them decent books to read at the earliest possible age, rather than merely sitting them down in front of the TV or Playstation ), than attempt to lock the door later, after the horse has bolted, as it were.
So surely the solution to encouraging kids to read more is better served by meeting them half way. Give them a Kindle or some other e-reader as a gift and you satisfy the educational need as well as the child's interest in gadgets, as has been mentioned previously. Think what you will about tech, but much of it is designed to fulfil a need and there are certain landmark products that fulfil this purpose admirably, the Kindle being one of them.
I remember reading of similar debates when home computers started to become popular, between those who were loyal to the humble typewriter and those who enthused about the functionality and convenience of word processing software. Interestingly, the reticence of some to move to the computerised medium was played out on the commercial market as well known typewriter manufacturers began incorporating microprocessors and word processing functionality into their machines. These machines were bought by typewriter advocates who eventually discovered, after living with them for a while, that the ability to manipulate text and layout electronically was actually very useful, and many were persuaded to move onto computers as a result.
I'd say this is where we are with the Tablet Computer just now. Unfortunately Apple really hasn't helped this format simply because they have a reputation for being quite a shallow company, concentrating more on eye-candy than functionality as they do. This has lead to the Tablet and in particular the iPad becoming something of a fashion item rather than a serious gadget. This is a shame as I can see the enormous potential of the Tablet Computer, particularly over say a netbook. I will wait for a while as the potential form and function of the tablet is thrashed out by the various manufacturers, but at some point I will purchase one, not because I want to appear to be 'Cool & Trendy', but because I can appreciate the formats functional abilities and potential. I believe there are many other people who feel this way :cool:
Hi Dave,
I remember reading of similar debates when home computers started to become popular, between those who were loyal to the humble typewriter and those who enthused about the functionality and convenience of word processing software. Interestingly, the reticence of some to move to the computerised medium was played out on the commercial market as well known typewriter manufacturers began incorporating microprocessors and word processing functionality into their machines. These machines were bought by typewriter advocates who eventually discovered, after living with them for a while, that the ability to manipulate text and layout electronically was actually very useful, and many were persuaded to move onto computers as a result.
Sure, I get that. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter if you use a typewriter or a computer, as long as you can spell, and use grammar and punctuation correctly!
What about handwriting, though - what have typewriters or computers done to help that? How many kids (or even adults these days) can write to a reasonably legible standard with a pen and paper? Yes, and I don't just mean that old-fashioned thing called 'joined-up writing'! ;)
So surely the solution to encouraging kids to read is better served by meeting them half way. Give them a Kindle or some other e-reader as a gift and you satisfy the educational need as well as the child's interest in gadgets, as has been mentioned previously.
I take your point, and there is no doubt some merit in it, however I'd rather that young children of a pre-school age were exposed to seeing and handling real books (and you know what I mean by 'real'), of an educational nature, long before they discovered what a Kindle or "e-reader" was........
When they're older then they can decide themselves whether or not to make use of available technology, but I wouldn't drip-feed it into their heads automatically, as a matter of course. Apart from anything else, it could result in future generations not even knowing what real books are, as alluded to earlier by Andre, and that's not a world I'd like to imagine.
I fully recognise, that when used sensibly, Kindles can be a useful tool. However, for the very reasons Neil gave earlier, I'm ultimately against anything which could impact negatively on the existence of physical paper-based reading media, or plain old-fashioned 'books', for the traditional minded amongst us!
Marco.
Hi Dave,
I take your point, and there is no doubt some merit in it, however I'd rather that young children of a pre-school age were exposed to seeing and handling real books (and you know what I mean by 'real'), of an educational nature, long before they discovered what a Kindle or "e-reader" was........
When they're older then they can decide themselves whether or not to make use of available technology, but I wouldn't drip-feed it into their heads automatically, as a matter of course.
I fully recognise, that when used sensibly, Kindles can be a useful tool. However, for the very reasons Neil gave earlier, I'm ultimately against anything which could impact negatively on the existence of physical paper-based reading media, or plain old-fashioned 'books', for the traditional-minded amongst us! ;)
Marco.
Forgive me Marco but I am playing devils advocate. I own traditional books that give me real pleasure when I handle them (and I don't mean tomes such as "Buxom, Bristol Belles" or "The RAC Guide To Dominatrix's" [?]:lol:). I cherish some of my rarer books simply because they are rare, and I agree, the feel of a book in your hand can be part of the experience, however I'm not blinded by this. I own collectable books and books I like to read regularly, and I am happy to load books from either category up to my Kindle, which is particularly useful to protect my rarer books from damage due to regular handling ;)
Yep, for that purpose, a Kindle would indeed be practical. It would come under the category of using new technology sensibly, and YOU controlling IT, rather than IT controlling YOU, which I'm all in favour of :)
It's the indiscriminate use of technology I'm against, particularly when it's used to perform the superficial role of a fashion item, in order for one to appear as 'current' or 'down with the kids', especially when one's days of being a kid are long gone!! :lol:
Marco.
I’m going to ignore the chip on shoulder comment for a moment Marco and deal with the subject ;)
I would agree that being able to read and write is an important attribute for social integration and economic success. However, in this case we’re talking about people communicating and yours and Martins particular obsession a standard of written and spoken English.
So what standard do you believe is necessary to flourish in this technological age?
I suggest that many of the people you and Martin use as examples will manage adequately with the standard of English they have. I would also expect that many will be able to adapt their English and to various circumstances; not all I grant you.
Yes my examples of other skills were extreme, but I’m trying to make a point about the overall level of education here. I read with horror for example that some contributors here who seem to have a reasonable grasp in the intricacies of English grammar are quite happy to admit their mathematical ability for example extends to being able to count the change in their pocket and they state this with some pride. I find that fairly shocking.
Others, who once again can manage it seems an advanced standard English would seem to have not much more than an 11 year olds grasp of technology and how things work.
I personally don’t accept the argument that a higher standard of English than say Mathematics is required for successful development and nor I would argue does the commercial and industrial interests of this country. In fact, many would argue that if we had a more numerate and technologically educated population we wouldn’t be sliding our way into third world status.
So, the standard of English being a primary bug bear here has more to do with what the various contributors have knowledge of and little to do with the social and economic welfare of our future generations.
In my opinion this has been and is one of the terrible shortcomings of our education system and like it or not, this can be traced back the foundation and development of our education system. However, this is a matter of social history and ones perception will largely depend on your political viewpoint.
Regarding your chip on shoulder remark. While it is generous of you to offer me advice about how I present myself to the world Marco, it would be a shame if you misunderstood fervent political and social convictions and a decent overall level of education that has taught me to combat ignorance, superstition and snobbery when I encounter it, for a piece of fried potato resting on my trapezium :)
What about handwriting, though - what have typewriters or computers done to help that? How many kids (or even adults these days) can write to a reasonably legible standard with a pen and paper? Yes, and I don't just mean that old-fashioned thing called 'joined-up writing'! ;)Marco.
I'm with you on this, there has to be a balance struck and I am increasingly shocked by the low standard of basic written and spoken skills exhibited by young people these days. It's not their fault, the system is failing them. When I was at school back in the 1970's, we were set three spelling tests a week without fail. I take pride in the fact that I was regularly top of the class throughout my school years in these tests, although my standards seem to be slipping the older I get :lol: Maybe that has something to do with my increased usage of computers to communicate in written form these days, or maybe not, but I am aware of it non-the-less.
One thing I miss from the past is the smell of the ink used on the cover when unwrapping a new vinyl album from its cellophane wrapper. It might sound silly, and it's a little thing, but it was something that contributed to the ownership experience for me. I've bought a few new vinyl releases since I got back into analogue hifi and sadly that smell is no longer present :(
Regarding your chip on shoulder remark. While it is generous of you to offer me advice about how I present myself to the world Marco, it would be a shame if you misunderstood fervent political and social convictions and a decent overall level of education that has taught me to combat ignorance, superstition and snobbery when I encounter it, for a piece of fried potato resting on my trapezium :)
That is a beautifully crafted paragraph John and now I'm feeling quite inadequate :eyebrows:
Meanwhile... :lolsign:
Hi John,
So, the standard of English being a primary bug bear here has more to do with what the various contributors have knowledge of and little to do with the social and economic welfare of our future generations.
In my opinion this has been and is one of the terrible shortcomings of our education system and like it or not, this can be traced back the foundation and development of our education system. However, this is a matter of social history and ones perception will largely depend on your political viewpoint.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that, and most of what else you've written in your post, otherwise we'll just be going around in circles! I'm simply commenting on real issues that I have witnessed first-hand.
Regarding your chip on shoulder remark. While it is generous of you to offer me advice about how I present myself to the world Marco, it would be a shame if you misunderstood fervent political and social convictions and a decent overall level of education that has taught me to combat ignorance, superstition and snobbery when I encounter it, for a piece of fried potato resting on my trapezium...
Lol - very good! Did you look that up to see how it was spelled first, before you typed it? :lol: ;)
Anyway, I'm just explaining, mate, how you (sometimes) come across, especially when discussions involve perceived issues of class, where for me, there is often a heady whiff of French fries in your posts :eyebrows:
Marco.
Absolutely fair Marco :respect:
I endured a private school education, university, a very politically active family and I guess even at my ripe old age I’m still kicking. Maybe I’ll grow up one day but given my age prolly not :eyebrows:
I'm with you on this, there has to be a balance struck and I am increasingly shocked by the low standard of basic written and spoken skills exhibited by young people these days. It's not their fault, the system is failing them.
Indeed - and often their parents are, too! I'll get to the rest of your post later :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
18-10-2011, 17:58
Absolutely fair Marco :respect:
Oh the irony of that emote given what is being discussed :lol:
I have to say this thread has been as entertaining as the current book I am reading on my Kindle :eyebrows: Some very well reasoned and thought provoking argument from all.
It's what AoS is all about, Tim :)
Right, din-dins, then I shall return with some more well-meaning waffle! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi John,
I endured a private school education, university, a very politically active family and I guess even at my ripe old age I’m still kicking. Maybe I’ll grow up one day but given my age prolly not
Yup, best to grow old disgracefully, IMO.... :eyebrows:
I also had the benefits of a private education (small class sizes, one-to-one attention from teachers, advanced syllabus, compared to that of state schools - I was learning French and Algebra when I was 10), but I didn't "endure" it. I thoroughly enjoyed every moment (well, apart from the elocution lessons in prep school :rolleyes:), even though I looked like an utter cock in my little cap, blazer and shorts! My mum's still got the pictures - I'll have to scan them in and post them some day here for your collective amusement :doh: :lol:
I didn't do the university thing, though. I thought about it, and nearly went there (as I had the necessary qualifications to study for a degree in translation), but decided against wasting three years of my life sat on my backside behind a desk studying to be an Italian and French translator, and instead to go out and earn some money, and later explore my entrepreneurial side, by starting my own business. The latter is the reason why, through bloody hard work and some smart investments, that I'm now financially secure, mortgage and debt-free, and semi-retired at 46 (although that state of affairs has existed since I was 43).
I'm not sure if I'd have achieved all that as a translator! ;)
Marco.
It is quite interesting; well I think so anyway, the routes we’ve all taken and what the outcome has been.
Some have said, possibly with a certain amount of justification, wtf are you complaining about, many would give their eye teeth for such an opportunity.
Problems arise however if you’re not suited to that sort of environment and parental pressure particularly with regard to career choices doesn’t actually suit your abilities.
My family, which is where I suggest we learn out basic social values, all took arts and languages at university. Naturally enough, parents tend to encourage their offspring into areas they not only feel will help them secure a financially secure passage through life but also what they themselves are comfortable with.
I’m not a natural arts and languages type of student and I certainly didn’t want to follow my sister into law or my father into politics. My father didn’t know shit about mathematics or technology, nor did the other members of my family and it really wasn’t the priority subjects at my school. If I have a talent, its in these areas and for me at least while I benefited in many ways from the advantages a private style education can offer, they weren’t that great at teaching the subjects I had an aptitude for; in short they catered for those students who would eventually become professional people in that strictly British sense. Mention you wanted to make stuff and maybe get your hand dirty from time to time and you got ushered out a bit rapid for some one to one indoctrination ;):lol:
Okay, a bit extreme but basically representative ;)
For me anyway, some of the education took reasonably well, but the indoctrination failed miserably :lolsign: Not a lot of future being a posh kid who wants to mess about with engines and would rather solve equations then the Times crossword when the pressure is to become a clone of your parents.
I would say the system/parenting/education/whatever hasn’t quite achieved its purpose if at the age of 30 you find yourself taking a second degree through the Open University to learn about the theories behind your interests. Maybe I’m wrong :scratch:
Am I complaining? Well no, not really but I hope with the above I’ve shown why when people rant on about the standard of English and the development of an appreciation of “the finer things in life” I get my lefty hat on and have a go at presenting an alternative view. So, maybe I do have a slice of that fried potato sitting on my trapezium but it weighs very little where it lives, just gets thrown at a high velocity.
Of course its important to be able to read and write, but this country in particular has placed far too greater emphasis on what were subjects and values taught at universities for the children of the upper classes who were unlikely to ever have to do a days work in their lives and would gain financial security through inheritance and nepotism :eyebrows:
I honestly believe that not many industrialists certainly and probably many economists would argue about this. Its part of the reason we don’t make stuff in this country any more and are getting ruined by the same professional classes that my parents and my educational establishments belong to.:mental:
So Marco, I would say that perhaps I would now be better off if I had taken a route more akin to yours. Fortunately, I’m far from starving and have learnt that while money and the illusion of social position may seem to be desirable, and when I’ve had them far from unpleasant, there are far more important things in life.
Rant over for now.
( I hope there are enough emicons to keep me in the semi illiterate category)
Frankly I tend to gravitate towards people who have something interesting to impart and I don't judge them by what they may, or may not have achieved in life. I find this approach helps to avoid any concious or implied discrimination ;)
John,
It sounds like the educational route you were sent down didn't suit you but if I'm reading you correctly you feel this is a fault of the private/public school system. There are choices for parents to make. I went to a pretty expensive school but it was one that had 20+ lathes, various milling machines, a foundry, electronics lab etc. Several petrol go karts were produced in the workshops each year, we all had to make a vice, starting with pouring molten aluminium into the mold we have prepared. OK, this school is not typical but the mistake many parents make is to send their child to the "best" school based on their prejudices. What I'm hoping I've done with my kids is to send them to the best schools for them which cater for their learning styles and aptitudes.
Clive
Nice story, John, and thanks for sharing it :)
I suspect that we'll never fully agree on the importance in life we place on the ability to be able to read and write proficiently, so it's probably best to leave that part of the discussion there.
All I will say is that maths and science were never my strongest subjects at school (I was the same as you, although my brain worked the opposite way), but I was at least competent at them, achieving an A-level ('Higher Grade', in Scotland) in both maths and biology, and was certainly more capable in those subjects than I see many of today's students are in basic English language skills.
As an aside, you'll never see me pull anyone up on AoS because they can't spell or have poor grammar, providing that they are able to be understood, and if I saw anyone else do it, unless it was patently obvious that it was just a wind-up, I'd pull them up for being pedantic! Like you say, as long as people are able to communicate easily with each other, that's all that matters.
Contributing to discussions on an Internet forum isn't meant to be grammatically or orthographically taxing; it's simply meant to be fun. However, it's a different matter ensuring that young people receive a proper academic education. That is a much more serious matter.
So Marco, I would say that perhaps I would now be better off if I had taken a route more akin to yours. Fortunately, I’m far from starving and have learnt that while money and the illusion of social position may seem to be desirable, and when I’ve had them far from unpleasant, there are far more important things in life.
I completely agree! As for occupying a particular 'social position', I hate such superficial snobbery, and so refuse to label myself as being a member of any particular social class. I'm already on record here as saying that I'd rather be time rich and money poor, than vice versa, providing that it meant I could spend proper time with my family and friends, and I had the basics to survive. I sincerely mean that, and if ever forced to choose between the two options, I'd select the former without a moment's thought!
I'd never want to saddle myself with the pressure and horror of having to work all the hours God sends, simply to sustain an unmanageable possession-led existence, or the existence one's peers deem as necessary in order for one to be seen as 'successful' in life - f*ck that shit! The work/life balance we have here in the UK is, quite frankly, diabolical.
Therefore, don't get me wrong, I'm not money-driven or materialistically minded in the slightest. I've just been fortunate that my path in life has lead to me being comfortably well off, but it wouldn't mean anything if I didn't have the proper time (governed by me, not someone else) to enjoy it all in the company of my friends and family, now when I'm still young enough and healthy to enjoy life to the full! :cool:
Marco.
...but the mistake many parents make is to send their child to the "best" school based on their prejudices. What I'm hoping I've done with my kids is to send them to the best schools for them which cater for their learning styles and aptitudes.
Nice one, Clive. That makes a lot of sense! :)
Marco.
wee tee cee
19-10-2011, 02:16
My mum and dad are currently on a cruise.Prior to going I popped in with my wife's and my own kindle that I had loaded with a few books they had requested over the phone.Many older books on the kindle dont cost anything or less than a quid.My parents are both avid readers but had chosen not to take books due to weight issues.After about twenty minutes of faffing about they were both taken aback with the kindle and really appreciated the ability to change text size.
My mum had selected some Dickens ghost stories she hadn't read since she was a teenager.My dad had selected some Cicero letters neither of which had cost anything to load.
We purchased them after an unsightly event at the final departure gate were I had to put on most of my clothing in thirty degree heat in order to avoid paying the budget airline bastards 30 euros because our dozen book supply made the carry on cases too fat to fit in a cardboard template.
My wife is a veracious reader,I enjoy reading multiple books in stages.The kindle is a wonderful device that gives free access to books out of print for nothing.
I am a bit of a Luddite when it comes to new technology but the kindle has really surprised me.
Dont knock it till you have tried one (preferably sitting on a sunny balcony with a glass of something nice at arms reach)
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 08:07
Well I guess it's the same as loving vinyl, some people feel it's too clumsy and old fashioned but I love the sound of vinyl and the artwork/presentation.
Some people feel books are too clumsy and old fashioned but I love the feeling of reading a proper book and the artwork/presentation.
I feel I'm much more liberated in knowing that I'm not getting 'filtered' by huge greedy expanding companies and that I can pick up a book from anywhere and anyone and give it a go.. At least I can have some comfort that communication between the seller or giver was made but I fear that this kind of communication will also be made obsolete.
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 08:27
Something extra as I've not had chance to comment much on this thread as I'm really busy at the mo.
My favorite book ever I got signed by the author when I was at the check out because she turned to me and said... 'Hope you like it', after that we got talking about the book and it turned out that she loved my all time favorite film too.
Tell me Kindle owners, can that happen with you? I think not... It's called communication.. lol
It's not a 'black and white' issue Joe (pun intended), as has been amply demonstrated in this thread. There are benefits to be had from both the new and old reading formats, in much the same way that there are for analogue and digital music formats and in a minority of situations, such as my own for instance, an e-reader is almost a necessity ;)
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 10:20
Agreed. But why fall in to the coffers of the companies that have simply too much power that are dictating what people buy. It's an over the counter culture for them but for us wanting freedom of choice it's growing tighter by the year.
Nobody here would like someone to dictate what vinyl they should buy as the majority is deleted and not re-pressed so why should that be the same for books, games and even food.
The situation is nowhere near as dire as you make out Joe, and it really isn't just a market of 'Best Sellers'. For instance, I have picked up Isaac Asimov's entire back catalogue for my Kindle, a task I have yet to achieve in printed format.
I'll keep out of the electronic v physical book debate...
However the biggest issue I have with the Kindle is that it is a dedicated device with limited functionality, for a couple of quid more one could get an Android tablet and the kindle app as it's available for Android...I can run it on my phone, but it's less than satisfactory at that screen size.
That's probably why they've reduced the price recently...;)
You're missing the point of digital paper versus a normal screen, coupled with battery life. The Kindle is properly dedicated to the task.
You're missing the point of digital paper versus a normal screen, coupled with battery life. The Kindle is properly dedicated to the task.
So you carry a dedicated phone, a dedicated music player, a dedicated internet browser, a dedicated book reader, a dedicated alarm clock, a dedicated address book, a dedicated atlas, a dedicated satnav...etc.
You'll need a rather large dedicated bag...;)
So you carry a dedicated phone, a dedicated music player, a dedicated internet browser, a dedicated book reader, a dedicated alarm clock, a dedicated address book, a dedicated atlas, a dedicated satnav...etc.
You'll need a rather large dedicated bag...;)
My smart phone takes care of all that leaving my Kindle, with it's battery life of over a month and a screen that's legible in any light, including darkness as it has a built in reading lamp, for books ;)
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 13:04
:ner:
My books have an equivalent battery life of a potential of 2000 years.
Oh shuddup you ;) Wait a sec, I'll go grab my Toga, I'm curious to hear what Cicero thinks of my Kindle :lolsign:
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 13:08
haha! :cool:
By the way Joe, I'm not denigrating the printed word. As I've already mentioned, I own thousands of books but most of them are sat in my garage packed into boxes because I have no room to store them in the house. My valuable books take up all my shelf space. My entire e-book collection sits on my bedside cabinet... ;)
Hmm, I dunno bout this portable electronica :scratch:
I did have a read of someone’s Kindle a while ago and it’s a neat enough gadget.
Thing is though can you drop it, sit on it, or throw it at the kids without it breaking?
I’ve often found a well directed hardback makes for an excellent attention seeking missile :lol:
My mobile phone had an uncontrollable urge to leap from my pocket not long ago as it and me were traveling on the bike.
Needless to say it died. I haven’t felt the need to replace it despite considerable peer pressure and whinging about being hard to get hold of; great that bit.
Write a feckin letter is my response.
I must admit it does seem a bit strange for someone such as me who is so dismissive about all that tactile pleasure and ritual involved in vinyl to be so totally unimpressed by modern portable gadgetry.
Each to their own John. I'm not trying to become a one man promotional machine for Amazon's Kindle, it's just that it suits my circumstances, it is thoroughly convenient (the back wall of my garage is piled floor to ceiling with boxes of books) and it is reliable. If it ever breaks, for any reason, Amazon will replace it (low cost no quibble Amazon comprehensive insurance is a must) and because mine came with Amazons own padded case complete with reading light, it is very unlikely to break should I get the sudden urge to hurl it at anyone :lolsign:
My mobile phone had an uncontrollable urge to leap from my pocket not long ago as it and me were traveling on the bike.
Needless to say it died. I haven’t felt the need to replace it despite considerable peer pressure and whinging about being hard to get hold of; great that bit.
Write a feckin letter is my response.
Feckin' yee-hah... 1-0 to the Johnny boy! :lolsign:
I must admit it does seem a bit strange for someone such as me who is so dismissive about all that tactile pleasure and ritual involved in vinyl to be so totally unimpressed by modern portable gadgetry.
It's because, like me, you're a free-thinker, not willing to be dictated to by any commercial entity, via the vehicle of marketing and advertising bullshit... We need more people like us to stall the brainwashing bandwagon, because there are too many bloody sheep in the world, blindly following trends to obtain the latest 'must have' gadgets! ;)
Marco.
Bah humbug, bring back the Spinning Jenny!!! :wheniwasaboy: :D
Agreed. But why fall in to the coffers of the companies that have simply too much power that are dictating what people buy.
TBH, you're a gullible fool if you allow anyone or anything to dictate what you should buy, and if you succumb to that brainwashing, you've only got yourself to blame! :rolleyes:
We still use a 10 year-old CRT Sony TV, which is immaculate and works perfectly, when of course in order to be 'current', we *should* own an LCD, Plasma or some such.
F*ck that. We don't watch movies much or have any interest in AV, so the quality of picture we get on our old Sony is plenty good enough for our needs; indeed I find the colours, when watching terrestrial TV, much more natural on CRT sets than LCDs and Plasmas, where to me the colours in comparison look rather 'pumped-up' and artificial.
It might be a different ball game if we had a Blue Ray player, and watched movies regularly, but we don't, so our old Sony TV will be staying put until it goes kaput!
And my message to those companies who are trying to dictate to me what to buy, or to sheep-like followers of fashion..............
:finger::finger:
Marco.
P.S Just so there is no confusion, "sheep-like followers of fashion" are simply those who buy gadgets just to have the latest 'must have' toy, in order to be 'trendy'. I have no beef with those who buy into modern technology for legitimate and justifiable reasons :)
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 14:29
Unfortunately Marco (present company excluded) if lots of money can sell wool to just one sheep then more money can see out a whole flock with puffa jackets with 'I love Gina G' on the backs.
Convincing marketing can sell anti-wrinkle cream (at £250) per 10ml pot to an elephant in drag at Christmas.
Fashion or fad?
I'm being cynical for sure and I'm certainly not taking this seriously but it seems to me that 'if they haven't got you one way they've got you another, know what I mean'
Shadows.. on me lungs?
At the risk of stirring up a Hornets nest here, I think Apple have a lot to answer for, not so much for the products they produce but how they market them. If there were ever to be a commercial Anti-Christ, Apple are prime candidates... :eyebrows:
At the risk of stirring up a Hornets nest here, I think Apple have a lot to answer for, not so much for the products they produce but how they market them. If there were ever to be a commercial Anti-Christ, Apple are prime candidates... :eyebrows:
...particularly their latest ones
"If you haven't got an iPhone...well you haven't got an iPhone" :doh:
As long as the customers are aware that at least 50% of the purchase price goes on advertising, product placement, and bullsh1t marketing.
The more someone advertises the less likely I am to buy their wares...now where's my Meerkat cuddly toy...;)
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 15:57
I've skimmed this a bit ... but I get the gist
Has it occurred to anyone that 30 years ago many people just like your selves would have been saying the same shit about computers ...
Its part of human evolution ... technology advances, some embrace it some don't
Those who it affects adapt or die ...
Same happens with technology its self, stuff comes along, "evolves" if you will from technology available, where there is a market, it survives where there isn't it dies!
these things rarely replace the original medium, just provide an alternative medium for experiencing it ... until of course humans evolve to the point that the original medium no longer appeals or is useless
... and even then ... well i'm sure some people still write with a quill once in a while!
Same goes for shops, etc... I run a forum that supports small business as much as it can, i dont want to see shops closing ... but at the end of the day, the internet, this thing you all spend so much time tapping away on, will push shops to change the way they do things, alter their mind set, push them to provide better and greater levels of service...
The ones who cant do this will die ... adapt or die!
In years to come what shops are left will offer a much greater experience for their customers, thanks to the internet forcing them to do so!
Adapt or die people, it's evolution baby ;)
SvqoF-uhQnQ
It surprises me to read from so many people i would consider more intelligent, or at least more informed than me that they can't see the bigger picture ... with respect, looking at the bigger picture, your views are meaningless, unfortunately for you we will forever move forward until we wipe our selves out ... but that will change nothing, everything we leave behind will continue in the same direction! I don't mean to get all silly and philosophical about all this, but there really is no other way to view it! By all means do your best within your lifetime to support what you believe in, stand by your believes ... but don't be so arrogant to think that in a hundred years time any one will care for your thoughts in any other way than basic interest in what came before ... just as we look back at what was 100 years ago!
This talk of preservation of things like this for the future generations is imo nothing short of naive!! Future generations will have different views that have (here's that word again) evolved from yours ... they will acknowledge the past, just like we do now, but care for its technology no more than we care for much long superseded technology ...
Lets make this simple shall we, if you like the idea of a eReader, for what ever reason, buy one ... if you dont, stick to your books ... all this time you have spent complaining about it all could have been spent reading a novel! or buying books to support your local independent book shop (if you have any left in your area ;))
And anyway, as point of note specific to this convo, according to the current Steven Fry series on the power of the word, more books are being printed than ever before ... so don't panic! ;)
And on this note of blaming apple for everything ... why not blame Andy Warhol ... hes probably indirectly responsible for the likes of apple's success ... fuck it, blame the invent of computers ... Babbage ... that guy has a fuck load to answer for if you ask me ... but then hold on without computers we wouldn't be on a forum ... in fact many of us would have died of some decease that the cure to has been found with help of the use of computers!
All anyone ever seems to do is fucking moan about this or that ... what are you really going to do about it eh?? answer me that?? In fact don't answer ... just shush it and go and do something about it! ... or don't ... see if i care .... HA!
blimey its good get get a rant out once in a while eh ;)
Nail on head, Hamish.
Without technology I certainly would not be here. And as for Babbage - my hero :)
None of it negates the importance of family, friends and relationships.
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 17:56
I think I'll become Wolfy Smith... lol
Hi Hamish,
Interesting post, as usual! Let's try and tackle some of it without simply regurgitating what has already been written.....
Ok, the future can definitely be influenced by what's happening at present, although of course not merely by the actions of one individual, but by a significant majority. If you think that the world we're experiencing today in 2011 was not influenced by the actions of people, even as little as 20 or 30 years ago, then you are sadly mistaken. Or perhaps I've misunderstood where you're coming from?
Therefore, what we do now, if carried out by a significant majority, WILL change what happens in future, which is why I've expressed concerns about the way, for example, literacy amongst teenagers has been adversely affected by the language that they use to communicate with each other in text messages using mobile phones.
If a proper plan was put into place TODAY by the relevant authorities to tackle the problem of falling standards of literacy amongst the young, and others like it, and that plan was to succeed in solving some of the issues, then the results of that would unquestionably affect (and indeed benefit) future generations. Therefore, I'm not sure why you think that this concept is fallacious?
Also, words such as 'progress' often get bandied about willy-nilly, as if they represented a collective fact, and it annoys the shite out of me.
It is total bollocks because 'progress' is a subjective entity: what you may consider as 'progress' may not be so to someone else, with an entirely different set of values and lifestyle choices. Therefore, not all modern technology is viewed by everyone as 'progress', simply because whatever it is that is being touted as representing 'progress', may not impact positively on everyone's lives, and so to those in question, it will not be viewed as 'progress'.....
I could reel off umpteen examples of modern technological gadgetry, which in my world, do not represent genuine 'progress', some of which have been mentioned earlier on this thread, and often elsewhere, on this forum.
And as for your statement of "adapt or die", again that is somewhat misleading and inaccurate, and indeed panders to the notion that we must ALL follow what technology dictates, or suffer the consequences. Well again, that depends on your lifestyle choices and how resilient your personal circumstances are to the effects of unwanted change.
In my position, I certainly don't need to "adapt or die", in the way you imply, for reasons that I outlined earlier, as my financially secure, largely self-sufficient lifestyle is not governed or indeed significantly affected by outside technological influences (or indeed many other influences), so I have the freedom to pick and choose exactly what changes I wish to implement in my life, if indeed any, and not succumb to what mass consumerism or modern technology dictates - and *that* is exactly how I like it!! :cool:
Marco.
Hmm, a shame you didn’t read a bit more carefully Hamish because I don’t think you did get the jist of it.
I don’t think anyone who had reservations about the Kindle, or what can be loosely described as convenience technology is saying that all technology should be cast into the fire. After all, as you point out, here we are banging away on our keyboards in our righteous indignation.
So’ for the Kindle enthusiasts (those with mobility problems may excuse themselves from the forthcoming ridicule) just exactly how many feckin books are you going to read on holiday? May as well have stayed at home. Course, you could always take film the entire holiday and try to relive it when you get home.
It’s a bit like the mp3 player carrying an entire music collection. Sure, if that’s what you use as your primary music source ting and tish away chaps. But, for many it seems it isn’t, it’s a secondary system they listen to on the move or when driving. That in itself is a bit concerning, shouldn’t the drivers be concentrating on the task at hand. I can’t count the number of car drivers I’ve whacked on the side window as I’ve gone by as they wandered around the white line oblivious to the traffic conditions fiddling with either their mobile phone or mp3 player. I mean wtf are these people doing with that stuff plugged into their ears in the first place when they’re in charge, or not, as the case may be of a potentially lethal vehicle! A bikers perspective I must add; wankers.
Ahem, oh arr, so what is the point of having an mp3 player full of music for a trip to the shops? Can’t these people wait until they get home to listen to music?
Hmm, the evolution bit; sadly flawed imo. I seem to be alive and kicking without much of this convenience tech; prolly disgustingly healthy compared to the average sat in can plugged into mp3 commuter I dare argue.
This assumption that technology is going to continue to thrive and evolve; well maybe, but Hamish mate if you’re so sure that this evolution is going to continue into our future then I know some people that will either want to burn you or stick you in a think tank somewhere. Always handy knowing what the future holds. History would suggest that societies have this awful habit of going phutt…I can’t see yer cloud serving convenience being a priority in such circumstances.
So, there is technology that benefits society and technology that benefits sales figures in the roughest terms and what I think is being whinged about here is the technology that is fad and sales driven. No one here is suggesting we turn of kidney dialysis machines or go back to the horse and cart.
Oh Marco got there already.
Lets make this simple shall we, if you like the idea of a eReader, for what ever reason, buy one ... if you dont, stick to your books ... all this time you have spent complaining about it all could have been spent reading a novel! or buying books to support your local independent book shop (if you have any left in your area
That's it right there Hamish, a lot of the rest is interesting, but a lot is just hot air IMO. We have never been able to stop progress and we never will.
Now I'm off to finish The Bourne Identity on my Kindle ;)
So, there is technology that benefits society and technology that benefits sales figures in the roughest terms and what I think is being whinged about here is the technology that is fad and sales driven. No one here is suggesting we turn of kidney dialysis machines or go back to the horse and cart.
Indeed, John - spot on! :)
Marco.
As Hamish says it's evolution, you can't stop it
Sent on my ipad2 :ner:
http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/All-the-latest-news-on-Windows-8.png (http://www.neowin.net/news/tags/windows_8)
Woot! Oxford English Dictionary adds 400 new words (http://www.neowin.net/news/woot-oxford-english-dictionary-adds-400-new-words)
The Oxford English Dictionary has just added 400 new words to their official list. The 400 new words now put the dictionary over 240,000 words, as spotted by Mashable.com (http://mashable.com/2011/08/18/oxford-english-dictionary-retweet-sexting-woot/)
Last year Oxford introduced (http://www.neowin.net/news/omg-oxford-english-dictionary-adds-lol) a number of abbreviated words like "LOL", "FYI", "OMG", and even a non-acronymic ♥. This year, Oxford has added the words "Woot", "Sexting", "Cyberbullying", "Retweet", "Follower", and a lot more. The addition only further proves the affects social networking and media (http://www.neowin.net/news/woot-oxford-english-dictionary-adds-400-new-words#) have on us.
Now that the Oxford English Dictionary has officially added the likes of "woot" and "retweet" -- where someone shares a 'tweet' with their followers -- it raises the question what will they add next? As the Internet (http://www.neowin.net/news/woot-oxford-english-dictionary-adds-400-new-words#) continues to pump out something new each day, such as a meme, viral video or even new abbreviations, we could see this making a big impact on our language. OED defines the word Follower as, 'someone who is tracking a particular person, group, etc. on a social networking site'.
The new words will be added to the 12th edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Next year we might see some new additions like "lulz" or even see OED redefine the word "anon (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/anon)."
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 18:39
Firstly, I think you are mistaken, my point was that regardless of what people said about computers 30years ago, we now all have them!
Secondly, I said evolution, never once did I use the word progress!
Progress is subjective, evolution is inevitable!
Thirdly, if you have nothing adapt to then you don't need to adapt ... That's obvious, Im only speaking in instances where adaption is required! In the context of what I'm saying it can't be misleading or inaccurate, it is the very nature of evolution...
On the point of literacy ... Failing standards etc ... By who's standards ... The standards o our time!
Language is too evolving ...
The Black Adder
19-10-2011, 18:40
:rolleyes:
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 18:48
Oooo this thread progressed a bit whilst I was typing ... Notice the use of the concept progression, not evolution ... I feel my point was missed by some!
I'll come bak to this later :)
Hi Hamish,
Firstly, I think you are mistaken, my point was that regardless of what people said about computers 30years ago, we now all have them!
Yes, the members of this forum obviously have them, but not everyone in the civilised world, who can afford one, owns a computer! And that's the point: free-thinkers in society will always go their own way and not be influenced by fashion or the latest technology, unless they choose to embrace it, and that applies now with the likes of iPods, iPads, iPhones, Kindles or any other modern invention.
Secondly, I said evolution, never once did I use the word progress!
Progress is subjective, evolution is inevitable!
I know you didn't use the word 'progress'. Did I say it was you? I was referring to the numerous instances, here and elsewhere, where I read the word 'progress' being banded about, in relation to technology, as if it automatically meant universal benefit to all, which of course it doesn't.
As for evolution, yes of course that's inevitable, but one doesn't have to evolve in the exact same way as everyone else! I can assure you that no matter how my life evolves, I will still not own an iPod, iPad, iPhone or a Kindle. And nor will I own much of the superfluous gadgetry that forms part of other people's natural evolution.
On the point of literacy ... Failing standards etc ... By who's standards ... The standards o our time!
Which, quite clearly in the area of teenage literacy, are worse than those of, say, 20 or 30 years ago, partly because of the negative aspects of some forms of modern technology! ;)
And I'd like to do anything I can to help improve that sorry situation.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 20:26
John, you dont get the need for it... thats fine... as i said... but what is the point of your opinion in the grand scheme of things when others obviously differ?
Im not trying to argue one way or another for the kindle, im saying argument about it is pointless when it exists and people do want them!
John, you dont get the need for it... thats fine... as i said... but what is the point of your opinion in the grand scheme of things when others obviously differ?
Im not trying to argue one way or another for the kindle, im saying argument about it is pointless when it exists and people do want them!
"People" want the death penalty, does that make it right or good?
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 20:32
Marco
Im not saying everyone does want a computer ... when did i say that?
what i am saying is that 30 years ago general consensus was that there was no use for a computer in the average home!
Sorry, i had assumed that when you address the message to me, the content was specific to my comment ...
teenages are teenagers ... they will always come up with thier own way to communicate ... they will grow out of it!
If you wish to do something about it ... do something about it then!!
Im helping the kids in my community ... are you???
Anyway, look ... i dont want to argue... i was just making a point about the inevitable flow of evolution and the likely hood that the people moaning here would/could do little about it... lets not fall out again eh ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 20:34
"People" want the death penalty, does that make it right or good?
how is that relevant ... the kindle gives people a different way to read a book, its hardly comparable to the death penalty!
how is that relevant ... the kindle gives people a different way to read a book, its hardly comparable to the death penalty!
I'm not suggesting using a Kindle is akin to the death penalty but just because people want something, does that mean it's good and right. You could say the same for any pleasure or pre-dereliction. Could be curry or sex, whatever, too much isn't good, except for sex...
Then there are human and environment aspects. Miners dying working to dig out the rare minerals for the microchips. The effects of not needing softwood forests - could be good, could be bad..... Peoples' livelihoods being changed. Not quite a butterfly causing a hurricane but maybe you get my drift.
All I'm saying is think about the macro effects, not just how it impacts a few people.
"People" want the death penalty, does that make it right or good?
Good grief, how did we go from talking about Kindles to the death penalty.... jeez guys intense or what :scratch:
Good grief, how did we go from talking about Kindles to the death penalty.... jeez guys intense or what :scratch:
See my previous post....maybe there are wider issues we can debate.
Anyway, look ... i dont want to argue... i was just making a point about the inevitable flow of evolution and the likely hood that the people moaning here would/could do little about it... lets not fall out again eh ;)
Lol - we didn't fall out before, dude (as far as I was concerned), and we haven't fallen out now! I love a bloody good argument/debate, so understand that no matter how intense it gets, and how much we disagree on anything, it's NEVER personal! :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 20:55
I know, but I'll get all wound up an I can't be arsed ;)
Honestly Hamish, you have written a load of bollocks here :lolsign:
Just because my opinion, in your opinion, won’t change anything doesn’t mean I, or anyone else for that matter, shouldn’t voice their opinions.
What are you suggesting; we all sit around in silence because you think certain things are inevitable?
Oh well, there goes generations of debate then; all a total waste of time apparently :rolleyes:
This doesn’t seem to prevent you putting your views forward though does it?
As for your comments about doing something about it, well some of us are, by not subscribing to your predeterminist philosophy and by not buying the crap.
I have to ask you Hamish, if its all inevitable what was the point of having the ability to choose?
I feel a fate vs freedom of choice debate coming on... :lolsign:
"Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.
Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.
This planet has – or rather had – a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
And so the problem remained; lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches.
Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans." ~ Douglas Adams
:cool:
Well honestly! :doh:
Evolution, the process may be inevitable but the direction it takes and the possible outcomes aren’t.
Oh cheer up John, I thought it would lighten the mood as well as being eerily apt ;)
Oh cheer up John, I thought it would lighten the mood as well as being eerily apt ;)
Lighten the mood? It's hanging offence! :(
Wot Clive said :eyebrows: :lolsign:
Oh arr, the quote is apt alright Dave ;)
Lighten the mood? It's hanging offence! :(
What is? Quoting Doug Adams? :lolsign:
"The condemned man ate a hearty breakfast, before publishing his last words on Amazon, exclusively for Kindle owners..." :eyebrows:
Very entertaining thread, though I must say some surprising "heat" for such a humble little device to create! I must admit, I can't see many people buying a Kindle just because it is the latest fad - certainly not a fashion accessory like an iPhone might be considered by some. But then, I'm certainly an advocate of useful technology - pretty much my career - so I guess I was never going to be anything other than approving of it!
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 22:07
I'm bowing out John, sorry... I've used up my iq for the day, I'm not even sure what I'm argueing about anymore...
I stand by my original comment though!
Oh and for the record ... I prefer a real book ... But what difference does it make what I think? Kindles exist, and people use them ... That's really the end of it as far as I'm concerned :)
No worries Hamish, no offense intended mate :)
The Vinyl Adventure
19-10-2011, 22:58
Non taken... We all see these things differently eh... :)
Very entertaining thread, though I must say some surprising "heat" for such a humble little device to create!
It's the legendary AoS thread drift in full force, baby! And yes, shweety, we know you're a technology tart, and ripe to be raped by those big, bad marketing men - and you just bare your botty every time and lurve it.....! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
20-10-2011, 07:26
lol... :)
The Grand Wazoo
20-10-2011, 23:59
Having been away for a few days, I'm coming rather late to this thread, but as a voracious reader (for example - 6 novels on this recent 8 day trip) I am wholeheartedly in favour of real books. However, a rather convincing case was made to me a couple of weeks ago in favour of electronic reading devices. It was almost wholly based around financial reasons (with a little of the convenience aspect thrown in for good measure) but that financial argument relied upon the real book reader only buying new books and the Kindle user downloading illegally sourced books. Now whether you go onto a website and get yourself unlicenced data is between you & your conscience, but I can't foresee the day when shelf after shelf of used ebooks will be found lining the walls of charity shops around the country.
One point which I can't allow to go without mention is that of cutting down trees to make paper books being somehow worse for the environment than importing electronic goods from China or wherever. Please don't be fooled into thinking that paper pulp comes from the Amazon rainforest or any other endangered habitat. Trees that make paper are specifically farmed for that purpose.
WOStantonCS100
21-10-2011, 02:23
http://images.oneofakindantiques.com/1640_leather_bound_book_french_revolution_webster_ 1.jpg
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/kindle/whitney/dp/KW-slate-02-lg._V166950133_.jpg
"A", please. :)
One point which I can't allow to go without mention is that of cutting down trees to make paper books being somehow worse for the environment than importing electronic goods from China or wherever. Please don't be fooled into thinking that paper pulp comes from the Amazon rainforest or any other endangered habitat. Trees that make paper are specifically farmed for that purpose.
I think you trod on my landmine, "Then there are human and environment aspects. Miners dying working to dig out the rare minerals for the microchips. The effects of not needing softwood forests - could be good, could be bad..... Peoples' livelihoods being changed. Not quite a butterfly causing a hurricane but maybe you get my drift.".
I did say softwood forests and yes of course these are farmed. Now....most of us would think that "sustainable" softwood farms are a good thing and likely they are. The potential for some people thinking softwood farming can be bad is due to the non-indigenous species of trees being planted. Were you see hundreds of acres of pine forest where pines would never have roamed will offend the eyes of some. Others will worry about the effects on the soil due to pine needles dropping and then the overall impact on habitat, insect life and then the ecology further up the chain. Are pine forests acting as lungs for our planet? I really don't know but if not they aren't then they as useful as other trees?
To many of us this may seem like a pointless aspect but it's little different to audiophiles arguing over CD vs Vinyl but actually more important. Also I think the discussion over the pros and cons of Kindle vs Real Books needs to take into account all aspects, including the impact on the 3rd world nations supplying the parts for them or indeed Chinese banks lending the money for bankrupt countries to buy their goods - ok, now I'm widening the discussion too far......I'll stop!
The Grand Wazoo
21-10-2011, 09:03
I think you trod on my landmine......
This is a massive and very tricky subject and it's littered with far more landmines than the one you planted! I just thought some other lesser appreciated aspects of it should be aired.
Actually Clive, I wrote the above before I read your post. I've been away from the forum for a few days & I was responding to something that was said on the first page of the thread (by Tim, I think).
Actually, I'm mostly in agreement with the principles you describe, though I realise we have to be rather pragmatic in reality. The pulp industry is not by any means a squeaky clean, environmentally perfect sector, but your comments about growing trees for pulp are a little awry in one respect.
I did say softwood forests and yes of course these are farmed.
Actually most paper is produced from hardwood nowadays - except for in the US & northern Europe, but never from pine. Pine does not give the white fibres that are required for paper - spruce is the genus of choice for softwood pulp. The choice of hardwood species is a whole different can of worms though!
Now....most of us would think that "sustainable" softwood farms are a good thing and likely they are.
The current over-use and misuse of the word is one of my own pet hates. I'm not accusing you of misusing it here, by the way, because your statement is correct. But the word is bandied about by all sorts of people and organisations in order to justify their activities in the pursuit of cash.
The potential for some people thinking softwood farming can be bad is due to the non-indigenous species of trees being planted. Were you see hundreds of acres of pine forest where pines would never have roamed will offend the eyes of some.
What's an indigenous species then? This is a bit tricky, really - in many cases and particularly in respect of the planting of spruce in northern temperate zones, it's purely a matter of definition. In the UK, we define native species as being those that remained here after the land bridge with Europe was breached around the time of the last ice age. This means we can state categorically what trees are native to the UK - right? Well, no, not really. If you go back before the ice age, pines and spruces were growing here perfectly happily, just as they do in northern France & Scandinavia today. If you go back far enough, you will find that the UK was also the natural habitat of all sorts of things including Giant Redwoods, which now only live in a tiny part of NW USA. If you zoom forward to this side of the ice age, you will find that without man's intervention, all sorts of trees and plants will have found their way into the UK, by all sorts of means - birds and water both help species migration for example.
So the notion that we have a fixed set of indigenous species is rather flawed to say the least - this isn't conservation, it's taxidermy, which is not the same thing at all.
Others will worry about the effects on the soil due to pine needles dropping and then the overall impact on habitat, insect life and then the ecology further up the chain.
Of course, this is a factor that should be considered and dealt with with great care and sensitivity. However, the majority of land that is newly afforested for pulp has already been devastated by another land use - agriculture. This is the case all over the world, including the UK. An ex-colleague & I once took a burly Lincolnshire farmer to a high level meeting with DEFRA and the Forestry Commission where they were worried about the effects on biodiversity of a new (to the UK) system of forestry management we were trying to get them to support. The idea was that we would plant trees on marginal agricultural land. We asked him to stand up & explain to the attendees of the meeting about the biodiversity present in his barley fields. His response was: "Well, if it's not barley, then I effin' kill it"
I shall contemplate the purchase of a Kindle only when they manufacture them with that musty smell redolent of secondhand bookshops.
Excellent thread btw.
The Black Adder
21-10-2011, 19:00
http://images.oneofakindantiques.com/1640_leather_bound_book_french_revolution_webster_ 1.jpg
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/kindle/whitney/dp/KW-slate-02-lg._V166950133_.jpg
"A", please. :)
+1 - I mean, just look at that book... Makes me instantly want to open it and see what it's about! - The latter on the other hand.. well, what can I say.
Mark Grant
21-10-2011, 20:42
Great thread :)
As soon as the Kindle can do magazines (like the Zino reader) I'll be buying a colour one.
Might not be far off for USA, Kindle Fire
http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Fire-Amazon-Tablet/dp/B0051VVOB2/ref=amb_link_357727582_4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1HWHQ0MZN0V8CGWP40XW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1322986002&pf_rd_i=507846
This will be interesting if it is any good and I will probably buy one as my wife keep asking for the basic kindle but a device without a touch screen would be so old fashioned.
black and white touch screen version is also on the way soon, not for England yet though.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005890G8Y
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005890G8O
Only the basic model with old fashioned navigate by buttons/no touch screen at a low price in UK :(
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kindle-Wi-Fi-6-Ink-Display/dp/B0051QVF7A/ref=amb_link_161274487_2?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=01HXN3F21S0BXNMMBY2R&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=256804307&pf_rd_i=468294
-
The Vinyl Adventure
21-10-2011, 21:05
This is my favorite book!
It's been rebound, but inside it is a wonderful thing
It's aparently a 1773 edition
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/62fcc04e.jpg
It's even got some burn marks ... I like to think from something popping out of an open fire somewhere in its 238 year life!
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/27e56a26.jpg
Stratmangler
21-10-2011, 21:09
This is my favorite book!
It's been rebound, but inside it is a wonderful thing
It's aparently a 1773 edition
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/62fcc04e.jpg
It's even got some burn marks ... I like to think from something popping out of an open fire somewhere in its 238 year life!
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/27e56a26.jpg
It's no bloody wonder you can't spell for toffee :doh::lolsign:
The Vinyl Adventure
21-10-2011, 21:24
Well yes ... It seems our language has evolved somewhat since then!
I've just not evolved with it unfortunately :)
Might not be far off for USA, Kindle Fire
I'll be in Houston in March and intend buying one.
I now get most of my magazine subscriptions (Stereophile, Tone Audio, PC Pro) on Zinio and it works well as I have them on my work and home desktop PCs, work laptop and iPad. This means they are to hand to read wherever I am. When I upgrade my phone to a Windows Phone 7 I'll be able to read them on that, too. Handy for waiting rooms and trains.
This is my favorite book!
I have on my bookshelf a fantastic book on Chemistry from around 1880. It makes fascinating reading, especially as it is missing radium or anything to do with radioactivity.
The Vinyl Adventure
21-10-2011, 22:09
One for this thread
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/b69f5116.jpg
Sounds ace Martin ... I love things like that, they often give you a sence of insignificance I find! If they didnt know those things then ... What don't we know now? You know what I mean?
We have just won a tender to redo the website for the Edward Jenner museum ... I can see it being a facinating project! I'm going there on Monday to look at helping them digitise some documents from the period... It's going to e very exciting I think!
That sounds like a great project, Hamish.
The Black Adder
22-10-2011, 19:03
One for this thread
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/b69f5116.jpg
Now this is a thing of beauty... There is nothing like reading old books with mildew on the pages.. lol I love it.
This is probably the main thing I was trying to get at... here you have a book thats got a history to it, the whole thing is totally encompassing regarding the story behind it, it's past and it's future as these olde books are great to read and you just know that hardly anyone has read it.
Ok, I know I keep refering to Jeremy Clarkson here (and it's in jest of course) but if just one of his books lasts for just 100 years it would be a great thing to pick up to know what mankind thought about 'POWER'!.. lol
It's called nostalgia. I get all mushy when I unpack my first computer from its box (a Sinclair ZX81 complete with wobbly 16k ram pack). :wheniwasaboy:
3D Monster Maze anyone??? :lol:
The Black Adder
22-10-2011, 19:23
lol...the wobbly ram pack was a total pain in the bottom. Hours and hours typing in lists of machine code for it to just ZIP off...grrr!
Ahem... nostalgia? I'm not 300 years old.. how rude!
You wouldn't want to play 3D Monster Maze now matey... it's utter pants. But I too have fond memories of it being a great game.
Ahem... nostalgia? I'm not 300 years old.. how rude!
It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek mi-lord, in reference to your avatar. Shall I go now? :door: :D
The Black Adder
23-10-2011, 18:03
haha... you have womans hands mi lord!
jazzpiano
23-10-2011, 19:24
Hello,
I'm reserving my opinion on e-reading at the moment. My concern is the overall influence of corporations and profit margins and whether my choices get taken away. A few years back I was listening to a conference here on public radio and they had a panel of book trade people discussing the state of affairs. They said that now when a manuscript is handed to a publisher a rejection slip is automatically placed on the cover, and if the reader does not remove it w/in the first page or 2 the book goes... My understanding is the majority of books that get "approved" nowdays are self-help or celebrity tell-alls. Good luck to the poet or short-story writer, no matter how excellent they are. I think when a publisher is considering a book it probably calls the big chains first to see if they'd be interested in selling the book and how many copies they might order. I find this a scary level of control. ( Just like many things creative, we know they may not sell, but that doesn't mean we don't want the choce). One of my favorite authors is the late short-story writer Andre Dubus. I believe in his earlier memoir he states that around the time he was writing 2 of his most highly reviewed books he was making about $25,000/year - and this included work as a college instructor too! So, what does the Kindle mean for our choices? Who makes the decisions vs. who made the decisions in the past? Is there a difference in the values?
Barry
A well reasoned post Barry.
One advantage you do gain with an e-reader, including the Kindle, is the ability to download and read PDF and text files of rare manuscripts from the internet. These can be converted to any e-reader format using software such as Calibre (http://calibre-ebook.com/). :cool:
jazzpiano
24-10-2011, 14:06
Thanks Dave for the info. Maybe I'm too cynical. I know things always change, but some things like education and the arts I prefer it if the accountability police stay away.
Best,
Barry
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.