Speaker Itch To Scratch

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Guys

I have a bit of an itch to scratch here ( no strange medical condition jokes please ).

So let me explain my predicament which is regarding speakers;

I am pretty happy with my gear and I am currently using Dali Skyline 2000 speakers which I have owned for nearly 11 Years now. The Dali’s are a ribbon Di-Pole with a 38” Ribbon for the HF, 2 of 6” midrange drivers and a 15” bass driver, will drop some images below when I get the camera sorted. I am just having thoughts of something new, the only ones I think I would realistically go for are the VMPS RM30m.

Now my question is taking into account I like ribbon drivers but don’t wish to go down the Quad route and not too sure regarding the Martin Logan route etc, what other alternatives would it be worth my while checking out that I may have overlooked before I do anything too serious. Floor standers are my obvious choice and stand mounts would be fine too.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/VMPSRM30m.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/Dali2000.jpg


Cheers for any input guys,

Andy - SDDW

[Filterlab]

Well, being an ex-MartinLogan owner I'd advise not to go down that route. They're amazing speakers but unless you're going to buy some supertweeters as well I think you'd find them quite rolled off in the upper frequencies, particularly in view of your current speakers.

Personally I would get in touch with Robson Acoustics (they're web link is in the Links Box), Rob makes some amazing speakers all with positively staggeringly good ribbon tweeters. He's a friendly chap and very knowledgeable and I think his stuff may be right down your alley, particularly the Burlingtons.

[John]

The VMPS RM30m are really nice you could always speak to Howard at Stereonow about the Frobisher & Gleeson have not heard them but Howard rates them high and he knows his stuff.
I listen to them both if I could before purschase

[Mike]

Well, being an ex-MartinLogan owner I'd advise not to go down that route. They're amazing speakers but unless you're going to buy some supertweeters as well I think you'd find them quite rolled off in the upper frequencies, particularly in view of your current speakers.

See those things on top of Andy's Dali's?.... Guess wot they are! :lolsign:

[Filterlab]

LOL! Oh yeah, never noticed them! :) in that case Andy, give some MLs a whirl.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Guys

Cheers for the replies, you have both Filterlab and John suggested a speaker that I have not considered because I don't know anything about them at all. I will have to do some research on them and see where that takes me. This is what I love about the forum, someone will always have come across a product that you have never heard of before, this is going to turn out to be fun :)

Thanks again guys

Andy - SDDW

[Filterlab]

Nay problem.

The Martin Logan hybrids have imaging and midrange that belies belief! I found the treble to be a little limited but with super tweeters that area is covered. One thing they can do (and contrary to popular belief) is really rock very hard indeed. I had the Aeons which had a maximum input limit of 200wrms and a peak input limit of 500wrms! Plus they look amazing! :)

Pictured at various times:
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/001small.jpg

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/4r.jpg

...and with a pair of Townsend's finest. :)

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/DSC03636r.jpg

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Filterlab

Nice pics of the Logans, they seem to be fairly close to the rear wall, do they work well in that position or is it an optical illusion I am seeing, I seem to have the impression they need space all round them to work well. Part of my thoughts for the VMPS were they are designed to work close to the rear wall, which is where I would prefer them to be. I need to recover some of my louge space, which would be a nice.

Thinking about it though I have heard Logans in the past I have never listened to them and sensed they can rock, if memory serves me right they have been geerally played with either Classical or Jazz type styles. If they rock as you say they could be a very real contender.

Cheers for that, my little brain cell ( singular ) is now on overload.

Andy - SDDW

[Spectral Morn]

Try to have a listen to Anthony Gallo Ref3.1.

I use a pair so I am a bit biased. The lack of any traditional cabinet means there is no distortion/resonance to muddy the sound(box colorations). So they are a bit like Electro-statics in that respect. The treble is handled by a cdt film tweeter, extension is very good. Bass for the size of cabinet is amazingly good.

The usual hi-fi things are also very good,imaging etc. They are fairly easy to drive but I would suggest about 50 watts if valves and same if solid state. However they do respond to more power and a good tight/damping. So an amp with slow or loose bass would not be ideal.

Worth a listen. Let me know what you think.

Regards D S D L

[aquapiranha]

I remember Infinity did a nice range of reference series speakers, some (all?) using a kappa series ribbon. If memory serves they were very well recieved, and could be had for a nice price these days.

[Filterlab]

Hi Filterlab

Nice pics of the Logans, they seem to be fairly close to the rear wall, do they work well in that position or is it an optical illusion I am seeing, I seem to have the impression they need space all round them to work well. Part of my thoughts for the VMPS were they are designed to work close to the rear wall, which is where I would prefer them to be. I need to recover some of my louge space, which would be a nice.

Thinking about it though I have heard Logans in the past I have never listened to them and sensed they can rock, if memory serves me right they have been geerally played with either Classical or Jazz type styles. If they rock as you say they could be a very real contender.

Cheers for that, my little brain cell ( singular ) is now on overload.

Andy - SDDW

It's a bit of an optical illusion to a degree, they were about 1 metre from the rear and 75cm from the side, they performed amazingly well in that position actually and of course to sound can be brightened or warmed by tilting the panels vertically or leaning them back respectively. The MLs can do most musical styles without compromise - I say most as the compromising factor is the treble, the super tweeters address this but I must say that it's at the expense of some of that remarkable imaging (and I mean remarkable!). Rock they certainly can though, and they're mind blowing for cinema too if that's your thing.

They work better in free spaces apparently but I just followed ML's instructions and 75cm rear and side was the minimum recommended space. Also despite the curved stators they still beam although nowhere near as tightly as the Quad electrostats, the 'sweet spot' is definitely there though. I moved away from them as I wanted seriously crisp treble, ok I had the Townsend's but the combination never gave that edgy treble that a well designed metal dome tweeter does. All in all though the MLs were a serious cut above many enclosed speakers, the air and space around the sounds had to be heard to be believed, one could almost walk through the band so to speak.

Audition them, they may be to your liking or they may not, but they WILL surprise you. :)

[John]

Here are some other Ribbons no idea where you could here them but should some great
http://www.salksound.com/ht3.shtml


Also try out these; maybe they should be your first base of call ARTHUR SALVATORE really rates there speakers and think they have a UK dealer Price might rule them out
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/whatsnew.html#supervictory

[jandl100]

Supertweeters and stats? In my limited experience of 1 combo (!) they didn't work at all.

I had some Townshend supertweets to use with my Avantgarde Unos, but when I sold the Unos on (as one does ;)) and bought some Audiostatic DCI Wing full-range stats, something was very wrong indeed with the supertweets plumbed in. No matter what I tried the sound just didn't seem to gel. The Townshends were sold on pretty pronto and I lived (fairly) happily with the DCIs for getting on for a year.

I never could put my finger on exactly what was wrong with the combo - but it really didn't work at all.
___

As for sddw's speaker hunting odyssey .... I am surprised and pleased with my current Audio Physic Virgo II speakers .... looking ahead to my next speaker change, I can def see some larger/newer APs in my future, which is quite unusual for me - I normally like more of a change. Very fast and stat/ribbon-like - soundstaging to amaze, too - but without a pronounced sweet-spot, which is nice. I'd only heard APs at Shows previously and not been impressed at all - lean & tonally thin - but that is not the case at all at home. They do like a bit of power up the jacksie though - the valve jobbies I have tried didn't really do it. You need a ss muscle amp, I think, to give them the required grip.

[Filterlab]

Supertweeters and stats? In my limited experience of 1 combo (!) they didn't work at all.

I had some Townshend supertweets to use with my Avantgarde Unos, but when I sold the Unos on (as one does ;)) and bought some Audiostatic DCI Wing full-range stats, something was very wrong indeed with the supertweets plumbed in. No matter what I tried the sound just didn't seem to gel. The Townshends were sold on pretty pronto and I lived (fairly) happily with the DCIs for getting on for a year.

I never could put my finger on exactly what was wrong with the combo - but it really didn't work at all.

Exactly what I found Jerry. There was something just not 'right' with the sound, perfectly good quality with much of the imaging intact, but just not right. I can only equate it to sounding like listening to a pair of speakers with one having a replacement tweeter - the frequencies are there but it's just not coherent. Does that make sense? :scratch:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi All

I won't post too much now, and spoil the surprise. But I have started to scratch my itch.
Bought a pair of speakers a couple of weeks ago at a most very reasonable price with obvious problems, but the purpose is to use them as a project, which has started.

Will post details and photo's later. It is turning out to be most interesting :).

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Ooh!... you tease, you! :ner:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Just to tease you a touch more, you should be able to guess what the manufacturer of the speakers are from these clues;

1/ A house may have one or more of these.
2/ A link to a 1976 film with Jenny Agutter

A coupe of easy clues I would expect the correct reply within 10 minutes :).

Andy -SDDW

[Ali Tait]

Martin Logan?

[purite audio]

Logans chimney pots?

[Mike]

Just to tease you a touch more, you should be able to guess what the manufacturer of the speakers are from these clues;

1/ A house may have one or more of these.
2/ A link to a 1976 film with Jenny Agutter

A coupe of easy clues I would expect the correct reply within 10 minutes :).

Andy -SDDW

Logans Run!...

You have some ML's then! ;)

The first clue was a bit of a puzzle to me at first, but working backwards I came up with 'House Martin' ? :)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Well done Mike, the clues were a bit too easy.

As a sequel two the above question you now need to guess the model, it'll take you 10 seconds at best.

But what have or am I doing to them, no comments about fire wood please.

When I'm done you'll have get over to get a listen to them.

Andy - SDDW

[Ali Tait]

Oi,what about a well done to me,I guessed first! :lolsign:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Most sorry Ali and Mr PA, did my usual daft trick spotted the last post (not the Army trumpet thing) and didn't check further up for other posts :doh:, most deepest sincere apologies. When I get round to it, soon I hope I'll have a Bake Off and you're specially invited. Will buy you a couple of drinks as a prize.

With a bit of luck should get round to trying out the first of the mods I am doing to the ML's later in the week. Will let you know what the results are.

Andy - SDDW

[Ali Tait]

Sounds great thanks.I'll bring the 813 amp amongst other things.look forward to it.

[Mike]

What's happening with the Dali's Andy?

Are the ML's replacements or additional? :)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Mike

At the moment the ML's are in addition too and not a replacement for the Skyline's. Though that could change if the ML's work well enough, which I can see the potential of them. Ultimately the Skyline's could go, it would be a shame but I've had them a long time now about 10 years or so.

As I noted at the start of the thread, it's an itch I need to scratch. We'll see how it pans out. Even with the issues I've had with the ML's they show some considerable good points that I would like to bring out of them.

One thing they do is bass rather well, at the listening position it nice and controlled but in other parts of the room as you move around the bass becomes over blown somewhat, and rattles the room fittings about.

Need to play about with room position, though that can wait until the initial mods are complete and I know where I am going with them.

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Well be sure to let me know if they do get let out of the donkey stable...

I'd be happy to let them graze in my pasture! :eyebrows:

[Mike]

So lets have some piccys of the Sequel II's then! ;)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Mike

The first of the mods to the ML's are complete, will take the photo's tomorow and post them up. lets see if you can spot the difference. Should be quite obvious.

The results were quite a surprise, but very pleasing.

More later.

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Good news Andy.

You really should sell me those lovely skylines, you see! ;) :eyebrows:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

When the ML's first arrived home I was very pleased with them. First time I have lived with any of the ML range at all.

Whilst playing them and having a good look around them noticed a quacking noise from one of the sub drivers, stripped it out but found nothing, though on replaying the sound was there again. You couldn't hear it from the listening position only up close to the driver.

On further inspection found that the ML's had 2 different sub drivers in them, looks like someone’s been p*****g about. After a few phone calls to friend in far away places, it my not be that strange to find odd drivers as ML had used different sources over the product life ??. Anyway decided to replace both drive units. The prices charged by AS were a bit high and I didn't really want to spend that much purely on a project that didn't matter too much if it failed.

The upshot was I have been informed by a well placed person which driver to put in, new drivers at about only a 25% of the AS price. New drivers arrived and are now in place, what a difference. They work really well, they integrate with the panel better than the originals and are getting better by the day, bass is cleaner and tight and the loading up of the room which I noted in an earlier post has gone, to be replaced with nice tuneful sound that is much more even around the room and very enjoyable in the listening position.

Overall a great improvement, the Mids and High end are very nice not forced just 'there'. Earlier in the thread someone noted that the top end could be a touch rolled off, you were right of course. I do have some Super tweeters to play with, but will save that 'til later, though I do have an unusual thought about them. Will explain in a while.
My goodness what a waffler I am, Will drop the photo’s in tomorrow and further divulge what has been going on.

At this point I must make a confession, Most or all of the work is being done by a mate of mine who is far better and takes more care doing it than I would. Unfortunately I want things finished before they have even started - so cheers to Mart :)


Andy - SDDW

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Well here are the photo's of the second stage of the mods.
When I have been checking them over and giving them a good clean it was noticed that the crossover caps looked very stained as if they have been leaking from the inside, so if I went ahead with this I would need more space, so the crossover panels have been removed from the back of the ML's and placed in their own enclosures. A false cover has been made for the rear of the ML's and foam damped so it dows not thump like a drum on top of the sub enclosure.

When they were fired up after the work, what a difference just removing the crossover units from the speaker makes. Instant deeper tighter and tuneful bass, more integrated than before, bass not forced just there and just right.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/ML2.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll246/HyCoignitor/Audio%20Art%20of%20Sound/ML1.jpg

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Blimey, tall fella's arn't they!

Is that stood where your telly used to be?

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Mike

The TV is still there, just to the right. Had a bit of a move around, speakers either side of the TV and amp just behind the RHS speaker. The speakers work better firing down the length of the room. It all seems to be coming together quite nicely now.

Will get a better chance to give it a really good listen to over the next 4 days. Looking forward to that very much, will have the chance to play with speaker position too. Get your self over if you get the chance.

Andy - SDDW

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Well then, not too far off the final instalment.

I have been more than satisfied with the removal of the Crossover/Electronics unit from the rear of the ML's, as seen in the photo's posted earlier.

So now on to the final (nearly) mod that was initially planned for the speakers. The capacitors in the Crossover have been exchanged for some bought from Wilmslow Audio and badged as their own brand (don't know of their origin). All but 1 have been replaced. Even from first power up there was far better clarity and detail without being forward at all. The easy way to describe the result is that it all just gels together very nicely indeed. Over the last few days the changes have been subtle but certainly in the 'Getting Better' direction, or is it just me getting use to and enjoying the new sound??.

Any way that's it for now, as an afterthought does anyone have 2 nice quality 270uf capacitors, the physical size is not too important (no shoe box sized monsters please) as I now have a reasonable amount of space to mount them in the Xover boxes

Only 1 more thing to do now, then I can really sit, relax and truely enjoy these speakers.

Andy - SDDW

[alb]

The capacitors in the Crossover have been exchanged for some bought from Wilmslow Audio and badged as their own brand (don't know of their origin)

Most likely Solen. The ones i have are.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Cheers for that Alb, it's good to find out what they could really be, so not a bad choice after all. It's been playing most of the afternoon and thoroughly enjoying ever minute.

Andy - SDDW

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Well what can I say - 'AoS I think we have a problem'

Speakers Martin Logan Sequel II

There is a slight bias of the panels to one speaker, that is to say the mids and high frequencies now appear to be a touch more open and focused form one speaker. I have swapped the speakers around leaving the electronics the same and the bias moves with the speaker.

When listened to closely across the good panel the sounds is even across the whole panel area, on the biased panel the sound is less focused and prominent at the lower end of the panel than the middle or top areas.

Have tried cleaning the panel and no improvement, so looks like I have a goosed panel in need of replacement.

Any suggestions for the forum as the best way forward. The distributor for ML is asking £700 + for panels, considering what I paid, if I bought new panels I would have spent way above what they are worth. Under the present personal situation I don't really wish to (rather than can't afford to) spend that sort of money.

So options are - sell as is. Try and find someone in the USA to get a price for local sourced panels and ship to the UK, or ?? Not too sure what next.

I have my trusty standby speakers pressed in to action, a very nice pair of stand mounts made by a mate of mine in Honk Kong where he was a manufacturer a few years ago. So I still have music to listen to, so not all bad news.

Just a touch pee'd off now and not too sure which direction to go.

Any thoughts from you all would be gratefully received and considered.

Looking forward to your replies, cheers in advance

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Oh bugger! :(

I hesitate to ask, but how much are they worth in their current condition compared to if you had spanking new panels fitted?

Can you get the Skyline's back? :confused:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Mike

The Dali's are gone, whatever the case with the ML's, I realise it was an error of my judgment to sell the Skyline's - ho well you live and learn.

If the ML's were currently ok after what I have put into them, they would stand me about £900. So if I then put new panels at £700+ I think you can do the maths.

I would have thought working in good condition they could sell at 6-800 ish. Currently worth a trip into the wood burner I think.

Needs some careful though but basically I'm stuffed. Do I;

Sell them as is. Recoup some of my outlay.
Buy the panels and have a working pair of speakers still only worth a set value and a loss of say £800ish or more.
Remove the panel section and convert them into a DIY Di-Pole project. Still worth nothing at the end.
I wonder if there are any AoS members in the USA who would be able to get a price for the panels in the USA. If the costs are less it could be worth looking down that route. Any takes from USA based members. If so drop me a line and we can see where it goes.

Any other suggestions.

Andy - SDDW

[jandl100]

Damn - sorry to hear of your problem with the ML stats, Andy. :(

ML stat panels don't last for ever (although 15-20 years is not unheard of, I believe) and a pair very rarely 'ages' the same so a good way to test for panel quality is a solid centre mono image, as you say.
First thing I did when I got my ML CLSiiz full-range stats a couple of months back was to check this - dead centre, t'ank de Lawd. They would have gone back to KJ elseways.

TBH, £700 for new stat panels is actually quite good vfm given the RRP of the speakers (I understand my ML panels would be about a Grand). But not so good if you paid much less in the first place, I guess.

How have you gone about cleaning them?

Have you asked for advice on the ML forum? http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=71

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Andy


I am PMing you with some info you may find helpful.


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Jerry

Martin Logan agree that the best course of action is the replacement option. I have done some research and given the panels a clean using the vacuum cleaner,which made no difference, the next option if you are brave is to remove the panels and wash them in the shower. Do I use 'Head and Shoulders' or PH balanced :)

You are correct that given the original cost, the panels might be reasonable, but currently even working in good order they are only worth £700ish, which is why I am considering other options. Seems daft I know, but I that's me.

Keep the comment coming

Andy - SDDW


Jerry the problem has only just developed and both panels were fine when first bought.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

DSDL

Comments noted and you are spot on with your assessment of the panel situation.

Cheers

Andy

[jandl100]

[COLOR=navy]Jerry the problem has only just developed and both panels were fine when first bought.

Hmm - that seems very strange. I suspect a component failure in the electronics - do you have a friendly DIYer who could give it a go-over with a multimeter? You have an A1 speaker to compare the problem one with, after all. Maybe just a simple component change (capacitor or whatever) will do the trick.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hmm - that seems very strange. I suspect a component failure in the electronics - do you have a friendly DIYer who could give it a go-over with a multimeter? You have an A1 speaker to compare the problem one with, after all. Maybe just a simple component change (capacitor or whatever) will do the trick.

Hi Jerry

Thanks for your reply, if you go back a page or so there are a couple of photo's of my ML's, they show external crossover units. What I have done is remove the electronics from the speakers and done the capacitor upgrade. So when the problem appeared I was able to exchange the speakers and leave the electronics in place. The effect went with the speaker, so I am certain it's a panel problem.

Keep the suggestions coming, I may have missed something obvious.

Andy - SDDW

[jandl100]

Corroded or loose connecting wire or socket in the panel?

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Ha Ha

Good suggestion there, I know the external wiring is ok, but the panel connections themselfs are worth a look at, will check those later. Will have to figure out how to remove the panels - can't be that hard, can it!!

Andy - SDDW

[Ali Tait]

I'd tend to agree with Jerry's suggestion there.Can't see ageing panels happening all of a sudden! Hope you get them sorted.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Ali Tait

Just read my previous posts and I didn't write things down too clearly, the drop in level or bias to one speaker happened over a period of time, but only a couple of weeks or so.

It was one of those things that you mentally note as something different but don't delve too far into, until it has changed enough to be more obvious.

I've checked the voltages out of the Crossover unit and both read the same, though will have to contact ML to get the correct values.

Andy - SDDW

[jandl100]

I must admit that i'd expect ML stat panels to slowly fade over a period of months when they 'go'. With significant fade over a period of a couple of weeks I'd look more closely at electrical component issues before I wrote the panel off.



If all else fails, why not stick the panel in the shower? - nowt to lose!
You have cats? I once lost a stat panel, I am sure, to a spraying cat. :steam:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Hi Jerry

Checked out the electronics and both are identical to each other, no cats in the house so looks like I will have to try the shower route. Should be fun.

Note to self - Disconnect panel from mains before giving them a shower :)

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

looks like I will have to try the shower route. Should be fun.

:uhho::sofa:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Well then,

I've decided that at this time I am going to put the speakers totally back to original, and see where I go from there. Don't have the bottle to do the shower wash just yet. Will let you know the results.

Andy - SDDW

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Latest Update

Well I've been a touch pre-occupied of late, with the job thing (update on the other thread shortly).

The ML's are now totally back to original, the result is the same. A slight bias to one speaker, with that I mean on one speaker the panel level is a touch down. Done the clean thing etc and no improvement.

I have a couple of options. One is to buy replacement panels at £700+ or cut my losses and buy another speaker I have my eye on.

I am tending to go for option 2. So with that in mind I will be offering the ML's as sold as seen and heard for offers.

As good as they are I have just now lost interest with them and just want them gone. Maybe not the correct attitude but the one I'm going with just now.

Anyone want a punt at them ??

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Anyone want a punt at them ??

Fancy some Castle Inversion 100's ??? :eyebrows:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Mike, may give that one some thought.

I have a pair of speakers due to arrive, I hope tomorrow to get a listen to. If they are as good as I am lead to believe they are (I trust my mates thoughts on the sound quality) of these things, I may go for their bigger brother version. Which will give Deeper bass. Will see how they sound and decide from there. Nearly forgot to mention the speakers are the Ascendo C5.

Andy - SDDW