Jelco SA 750D.

[southall-1998]

Just a little curious about this tonearm.

I'm thinking about getting a Jelco SA 750D & Denon DL-103 and will be used with my Townshend Rock II Turntable & damping trough.

Is the Jelco heavy enough for the Denon?

God knows how this combo will sound:lol:

Regards.

[Ammonite Audio]

Marco's your man to answer this one, but yes a DL103 will work with the SA-750D as long as you use a heavier headshell than the standard Jelco/Sumiko type.

[southall-1998]

Any particular headshell to go for?

Regards.

[MartinT]

AT and Ortofon make some heavy headshells but they are hard to find. I'd recommend the Dynavector headshell but they are impossible to find! You often come across a Fidelity Research or similar shell on eBay. You may need the Jelco heavy counterweight in order to balance it.

Here's an example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-LH-2000-Headshell-/290609264898?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a9a97902

[hifi_dave]

IMO, the best are the original Fidelity Research headshells but they are rare and expensive when they do crop up.

There is not a lot wrong with the Jelco shells and if you feel the need for a more massy shell, just add a shim of brass, lead or a blob of Plasticene.

[DSJR]

The Sumiko shell is the universal one I believe and isn't silly money either, although prices have increased I think in fairly recent times..

Wouldn't one of max's arms be a better deal with one of these decks? Stunningly good sonics if the deck is a well cared for one and the setup is good. The damping trough is a pita though I found...

[MCRU]

I use a Jelco 750 with a Denon 103 and found the oyaide carbon fibre headshell (yes it is expensive but so are rolls royce's) a match made in heaven for me anyway.

The Jelco headshell as a bit weak IMO. So are their headshell leads, don't know if you have bought a Jelco arm yet but I have 1 left from the show pm if interested, new un-used.

[Marco]

Hi Shane,

Headshell-wise, mate, it depends on your budget.... The Sumiko is very good, and has the added bonus of azimuth adjustment, which in my experience is always useful. The stock Jelco headshell (which on the surface looks identical to the Sumiko) is, IMO, and inferior item and not manufactured to the same high standard as the individual Sumikos.

However, like Hugo says, the Sumiko, in stock form, is simply not heavy enough to optimise the sonic performance of your DL-103. The Sumiko is 12g, and you need 16.5/17g of headshell mass for the results to be optimal, therefore you're 4.5-5g short.

If you want to use the Sumiko, and it is a good headshell, and readily available, my advice would be to fit one of the excellent VPI non-magnetic stainless steel headshell weights, which are 3g, shown here:

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/VPI_Stainless_Steel_3g_Headshell_Weight_VPI-SSHW

...and make up the small shortfall in mass, in the mounting hardware, by using heavier than normal screws and bolts - even adding small non-magnetic stainless steel washers between the headshell slots and bolts might be enough.

Since you're on the Analogue Seduction website, you may as well order the Sumiko headshell there, as in my experience, they're excellent to deal with:

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Sumiko_HS-12_Universal_Replacement_Headshell_SUM-HS

If you want to spend more, then I can thoroughly recommend the Ortofon LH-9000, which won't require any additional mass: http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Ortofon_LH-9000_Headshell_ortllh9000

And of course the superb Oyaide HS-TF, which our very own David Brook sells:

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/turntable-products/91-oyaide-hs-cf-headshell-5052408650412.html

The latter two will ultimately offer better performance than the Sumiko, with or without the added headshell weight, (particularly so because of the superior quality headshell leads supplied) but of course they are rather more expensive. Hope this helps! :cool:

Marco.

[southall-1998]

Thanks, guys. And you too Marco.

Regards.

[ninja]

ISOKINTEIK can be cheap solution

http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=111

[Spectral Morn]

Having handled the Oyaide headshells at the recent Whittelbury show they are very light in weight and as such my question would be are they really suitable for a Denon 103a ?

Now feeling the weight of something in your hand is not particularly scientific but I was shocked at how light these felt in comparison to other headshells I have handled recently, particularly a Fidelity Research.

Any opinions on the above? and I read on AOS of someone having issues with the mounting slots being too short for proper alignment with some carts, again any comments on that?

As I lack experience with Oyaides I am curious, as I do have a hankering to try one and would like it to be as broadly compatible with as many carts as it can be, considering the price of it and yes I am aware there are two version of it available.

The poster above suggests ISOKINTEIK's additional stick on weight/mounting system and having bought a S/H Denon 103 recently with such fitted to it, it certainly seems to be doing the job of A giving more weight and B making the cart easier to mount.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Hi Neil,

Yes, with the Oyaide, you'd need to add one of the headshell weights shown, such as the Isokinetik or the VPI, and bulk up on the mounting hardware. Au naturel, the Oyaide is only 10.5g.

However, once that's done, it really flies with a 103, as the carbon-fibre construction controls resonance very well, although a NOS Fidelity Research headshell, such as the one I loaned you, would arguably be just as good. Neither, though, is a cheap purchase!

As for alignment accuracy and short headshell slots, with the Oyaide, much will depend on the cartridge used. I didn't notice a problem with the 103, and any minute discrepancy is instantly cured by popping a thin rubber washer over the bayonet fitting of the headshell.

One thing that doesn't get considered enough is the quality of the headshell leads supplied, which in my experience, sonically, can make a significant difference. The 'silk' ones supplied, for example, with the Sumiko, are no better than average and easily be bettered.

The superb ones supplied with either the Oyaide or Ortofon shells, are a case in point. I've also had really good results with these, from VDH:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAN-DEN-HUL-MCS300-PURE-SILVER-HEADSHELL-LEADS-NEW-/370258347954

Being pure silver, signal integrity is optimised, but for me, the most useful feature is that the tags on the leads which go at the headshell end are slightly bigger, in order to accommodate the larger pins on most headshells, which are generally of a slightly larger diameter than those found on cartridges.

Therefore, one end of the leads has narrower tags, for the cartridge end, and wider tags for the headshell end, which together with the solidly done soldering of the tags (no easy breakages here!) and the flexibility of the wire used on the leads, make life a whole lot easier when fitting cartridges!

The VDH are therefore highly recommended :cool:

Marco.

[southall-1998]

How much did the Denon DL-103 cost back in 1962?

Regards.

[Marco]

Lol... Best ask someone who was born back then! ;)

Marco.

[southall-1998]

Hehehehehe :)

[hifi_dave]

Lol... Best ask someone who was born back then! ;)

Marco.

Where's DSJR when you need him ?

I had three different models of Denon to try out back in the late 70's and I believe the plain 103 was £49 and the elliptical version around £99.

[Marco]

Where's DSJR when you need him ?


Indeed! :lol: And you being just a youngster 'n' all.......

Marco.

[MartinT]

Lol... Best ask someone who was born back then! ;)

<cues myself>
Nope - I don't remember enquiring about the DL-103 when I was four!

[DSJR]

Where's DSJR when you need him ?

I had three different models of Denon to try out back in the late 70's and I believe the plain 103 was £49 and the elliptical version around £99.

CHARMING!!!!!! :eek:

I'm afraid my memories of the 103 start in the late 70's and it cost around £60 back then IIRC, the same as the Dynavector 10X and Denon DL110 (I think).

[southall-1998]

Why has the price of the 103 stayed fairly low over the years.



Regards.

[MartinT]

Possibly like the SL-1210, the manufacturer recouped their investment decades ago.

[MartinT]

These Nerve Audio cartridge leads are good - I can vouch for them:

http://nerveaudio.com/phono-acc/litz-headshell-wires/

http://nerveaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/litz_wire_Copper_01.png

[DSJR]

Not expensive to buy:), but how much is shipping?

[Marco]

Next to bugger all, Dave, I should think...

I've imported plenty of headshell leads from all over the world (to test out various ones) and it's always cost me buttons. Unless you specify otherwise, such items are usually just popped into a small jiffy bag and sent by surface mail.

However, you have to wait a considerable time for them to arrive - sometimes for over a month or more!

Are those the leads you're using now then, Martin? :)

Marco.

[wiicrackpot]

Not expensive to buy:), but how much is shipping?
I can't see any prices,:scratch: am interested in a set or 2 of these to try my new cart acquisitions.:)

[Marco]

First in the list here, Andy: http://nerveaudio.com/pricing-2/

:)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

Yes, with the Oyaide, you'd need to add one of the headshell weights shown, such as the Isokinetik or the VPI, and bulk up on the mounting hardware. Au naturel, the Oyaide is only 10.5g.

However, once that's done, it really flies with a 103, as the carbon-fibre construction controls resonance very well, although a NOS Fidelity Research headshell, such as the one I loaned you, would arguably be just as good. Neither, though, is a cheap purchase!

As for alignment accuracy and short headshell slots, with the Oyaide, much will depend on the cartridge used. I didn't notice a problem with the 103, and any minute discrepancy is instantly cured by popping a thin rubber washer over the bayonet fitting of the headshell.

One thing that doesn't get considered enough is the quality of the headshell leads supplied, which in my experience, sonically, can make a significant difference. The 'silk' ones supplied, for example, with the Sumiko, are no better than average and easily be bettered.

The superb ones supplied with either the Oyaide or Ortofon shells, are a case in point. I've also had really good results with these, from VDH:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAN-DEN-HUL-MCS300-PURE-SILVER-HEADSHELL-LEADS-NEW-/370258347954

Being pure silver, signal integrity is optimised, but for me, the most useful feature is that the tags on the leads which go at the headshell end are slightly bigger, in order to accommodate the larger pins on most headshells, which are generally of a slightly larger diameter than those found on cartridges.

Therefore, one end of the leads has narrower tags, for the cartridge end, and wider tags for the headshell end, which together with the solidly done soldering of the tags (no easy breakages here!) and the flexibility of the wire used on the leads, make life a whole lot easier when fitting cartridges!

The VDH are therefore highly recommended :cool:

Marco.

Interesting answer, though is it not better to have as few interfaces between things as you can, as any non bonded lamination made up of weights and headshells and nuts might add extra degrees of vibration into proceedings; between the various surfaces.Just a thought and not necessarily a fact.

I will have to see if I can obtain an Oyaide headshell to play with sometime, comparing it to others might be a project I will look into in the future, no promises as to when as frankly I am not always able to do things when I might like to (who said FM tuners ;)) :(

I have some SME leads and Ortofon ones kicking around in my audio bits and bobs box, so I might have a go at replacing some of the stock headshell leads on the headshells I have to see what that does for things. Those leads on the FR5 headshell looked pretty poor...


Regards D S D L

[MartinT]

Are those the leads you're using now then, Martin? :)

Yes, and they're good. I'm not even using the silver ones!
I bought them from eBay and they arrived very quickly - about a week.

[Spectral Morn]

Yes, and they're good. I'm not even using the silver ones!
I bought them from eBay and they arrived very quickly - about a week.

Ebay linky Martin, please. Those look interesting.


Regards D S D L

[MartinT]

Copper ones:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nerve-Audio-Litz-wire-phono-cartridge-headshell-leads-/360177202518?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53dc3bf556

Silver ones:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nerve-Audio-Vagus-Silver-Litz-wire-Head-shell-Leads-/160459783732?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255c25fe34

This guy does some good stuff if you look through his shop.

[wiicrackpot]

Cheers Marco + boys, ordered the cheaper one's.:)

[Mr.Nic]

THREAD RESSURECTION:

I'm currently using a Acos GST-1 tonearm with a Lustre headshell on the Lenco in my second system. I was wondering if the 750D would be a noticeable / significant upgrade? Also (forgive my ignorance) but would I be able to retain the Lustre headshell to use with the Jelco?

[CornishPasty]

Would you need a heavier headshell if you're going to use the damping trough?

[walpurgis]

Would you need a heavier headshell if you're going to use the damping trough?

Not necessarily. The opposite could apply. The mass of the headshell, cartridge and arm determine the LF resonance, the cartridge compliance is a factor too. Fluid damping gives the stylus cantilever suspension something to work against and to an extent may reduce the LF resonance, meaning that headshell mass becomes less of a factor. My Mission 774 arm is a low mass arm that works very well with low compliance MC and Deccas when fluid damping is in use.

[Scooby]

The Jelco is a lovely arm but it really does have an obvious design flaw. The arm collar isn't up to the job. Fortunately the Ammonite Acoustics replacement takes care of this perfectly.

[CornishPasty]

Thanks Geoff but I've just realised this thread dates back to 2011 so my question isn't really relevant.

[walpurgis]

Thanks Geoff but I've just realised this thread dates back to 2011 so my question isn't really relevant.

There's no expiry date on the thread or on a sensible question.

[CornishPasty]

Thanks Geoff. My question related to the first post where the OP was going the arm and cart with his Rock TT and the front mounted damping trough. I wondered if having the damping at the front end would have a similar effect to fitting a heavy headshell hence maybe negating the need for one.

[walpurgis]

I wondered if having the damping at the front end would have a similar effect to fitting a heavy headshell hence maybe negating the need for one.

Yes. That's basically what I said in post 34.

[CornishPasty]

Ok then, is there a difference between fluid damping done at the back of the arm and fluid damping done at the front?

[walpurgis]

It will have the same resistive effect.

I can only think of one maker that damps the arm/headshell actually at the front and that's Townshend. SME and Mission arms use a trough & paddle just ahead of the arm pivot point. Decca, Mayware and others have a fluid well within the arm pivot top.

[Temsa]

I am planning on using a Denon 301 mk2 on a Jelco 750D,do I need extra wight on the headshell then?

[CornishPasty]

I don't think the DL301 suspension is as stiff as that of the DL103 so I'd go with the stock headshell for starters and see where it takes you.

[Temsa]

Ok,when I bought the 750D I got the original counterweight but allso a one wich weighs more,wich one to use?

[gx502]

I ran a SA-750D with a DL301-MKII for a short while, simply because that was the only cartridge I had spare on hand. I used both the stock Jelco headshell and also a Audio Tecnica AT-LH13 headshell. The Audio Technica headshell worked much better.

You will not need to use the heavy counterweight. I was suprised that the DL301-MKII worked surprisingly well in the SA-750D.

[Floyddroid]

I used a 103 on my Garrard 401 i a 750D. I used the Sumiko headshell and it tracked no bother. Whether it will suit your Rock though is a different matter.

[Jimbo]

I am planning on using a Denon 301 mk2 on a Jelco 750D,do I need extra wight on the headshell then?

You will not need any extra headshell weight. The 301 mk2 is quite a different beast to a 103.

[Aethelred]

Imho you can run Denon 103 but this cart does not behave great in the Jelco. To me it seems like weight wise all is matching but i think some internal construction is not completely on pair to behave like real heavy arm Like Fidelity Research type ones. I really like Jelco with Denon 207,301 and 304 also Zyx works very good. I think jelco might be very solid performer for all carts that require medium mass to light heavy arm. I used ortofon 9000 shell for weight and ADC magnesium one when i needed to reduce mass. I did not like damping fluid at all and got rid of it quickly. I think this arm is good till Reed /Triplanar/sme level. I have 10.5 version of this arm .

[Temsa]

Today I got my DL301 II,and it came with a overhang dummy shell,for adjustng the overhang.
But how much should the overhang be?

[ludovico]

Imho you can run Denon 103 but this cart does not behave great in the Jelco. To me it seems like weight wise all is matching but i think some internal construction is not completely on pair to behave like real heavy arm Like Fidelity Research type ones. I really like Jelco with Denon 207,301 and 304 also Zyx works very good. I think jelco might be very solid performer for all carts that require medium mass to light heavy arm. I used ortofon 9000 shell for weight and ADC magnesium one when i needed to reduce mass. I did not like damping fluid at all and got rid of it quickly. I think this arm is good till Reed /Triplanar/sme level. I have 10.5 version of this arm .

Do you think the 12" Jelco (750L) could work better with the DL-103 (heavier, effective mass is 26g).

[Aethelred]

I do not know 12" so cannot comment but in general heavy mass arms recommended are from fidelity research, or to find, sme - all vintage. Again low compliance carts will work in jelco you can also add damping fluid to provide even more compatibility (I have never liked the fluid though) but if you check other forums people claim the design of Jelco was not heavy arm from ground up but rather added compatibility. Again I'm running carts that require mid mass so I'm not an expert if you ask about heavy arms. I'm planning to sell my arm as a part of rig reduction so let me know PM if you interested in.