TA2022 and ATC

[hoopsontoast]

Hi all, following a recommendation from Jerry, and trying a TA2020 T-Amp on loan, i would like to look at the more powerful TA2022 amps.

My room is small around 8ft square-

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6157/6178367834_baa119bb29_b.jpg

And this was my initial impression of the TA2020 with the SCM10's-

Well been giving it a good go today, and mixed results. Does the T-Amp play music with the SCM10's? In a word yes, it does, but this is a small 8ft square room and not exactly playing loud.
Up to a point, i have tight and very punchy bass, which is one of the T-Amps most impressive points, its the transients in the treble that it portrays really well.

But we get to the point with more complex music I am hearing the limitation of the T-Amps dynamic ability, when you get a lot of instruments, they layers get a little blurred and the bass softens a little.
Now for about 90% of my listening i think it would be fine, but when i like to put something on a little louder, it feels me wanting. Now for £60 (although still borrowed off Jerry) it really is not that bad, hey i dont think my old Teac 50wpc integrated would have done any better.

I have found the best volume level, seems to be from 9:00 to 9:30, just as the ATC's come alive and the T-Amp keeps its trousers up.

I will still pursue a better suited amplifier, i would like to get some similar character monoblocks, possibly the Temple Audio ones or similar. From experience with the Audiolab 8200MB Mono's, the sound-stage and imaging was top notch, this might be a trend of monoblock amps, not sure.

Now to compare the SCM10's to the modern SCM7's, i think the older 10's with the different tweeter, are a little easier on the ears, the main failing of the 7's was the slightly strident treble at times, the 10's seem a bit smoother, a better compromise IMO. They feel slightly better built (less cabinet vibrations) but do seem a little closed in, but the room, CDP and Amp are completely different. They look nicer in the Rosewood versus the Cherry on the 7's as well.
They certainly sound more focused (soundstage definition) when the grilles are on, the opposite of the 7's from memory.

From several reviews on the web, the TA2022 versions are a lot more controlled in the bass, but seem to have a 'darker' presentation, is this correct?

The two on ebay look good, the Pop Pulse T150 and Topping TP60.

Any views? As for the same amount (under £200) I could get a Audiolab 8000A, having heard the 8200A, I think this would do a good job as well.

[DSJR]

With passive ATC's of any model, in my experience the more old fashioned Watts the better, irrespective of volume level. Since the loading of passive two-way ATC's is usually quite benign, I reckon you'd get some really decent mileage out of summat like one of the Alesis power amps (500?). back in the day, there was a 100WPC Sony integrated that sold for around a ton (it was black coloured, and that's all I can remember!). It sounded very good indeed with 10's and 20's, it's rawness suiting them well.

I did use a freshly restored Quad 405-2 with my 20's at the time, but the poor thing almost suffered thermal melt-down after a few hours use. Sounded better the hotter it got though, but that could be the incresing soft clipping coming in - the max power reduces I seem to remember as the case heats up.......

An 8000A isn't powerful enough and neither is the 8000S, although it's much cleaner on sound, but an 8000P will be, if you can find or make a cheap passive volume control for it.

The bigger integrated NAD's may be a bit too "plump" sounding for the 10's, although they all feature huge dynamic power.

Hope this helps a bit... :scratch:

[hoopsontoast]

I have tried the Behringer A500 with the SCM7s previously and did not get on with it, but i was using it as an integrated, and apparently it sounds better with a pre amp and run wide open.

The Sony 770ES beast i used with some Kord Tornado's previously as well was very good, excellent bass control while being nice and smooth.

With the SCM7s i tried the new Audiolab 8200A and also Audiolab 8200Q/8200MB's and was supprised how well the standard integrated did, nice punchy and controlled bass, defined soundstage and good detail. The Q/MB setup was very very impressive, bass depth and attack was (personally) the best i had heard, even with the 7's in a small/medium room. Sounded very very good at loud volumes as well!

[ikaruga]

Now for £60 (although still borrowed off Jerry) it really is not that bad, hey i dont think my old Teac 50wpc integrated would have done any better.

My Teac ADH500 was leagues ahead of the mini-t I tried (Topping) in terms of overall power. Sound quality wise, subjective but I'm happily living with the Teac after years of Rotel and Arcam amps with absolutely zero complaints. In fact, at high volumes the Teac holds the sound together so well someone I know with a Tag Mclaren amp was rather pleasantly shocked at it's ability.

[DSJR]

Was that the one as part of the mini-midi system TEAC did in the mid nineties? Good little amp I thought, along with many others in the trade, and well up to Arcam's offerings of the period (they hadn't yet reclothed everything in the Diva boxes at this point). The bits that went with it were pretty good too and the whole system (£800 IIRC) gave Denon a few headaches I remember :)

[Reid Malenfant]

All the smaller ATC speakers including the SCM20 (all models) down are pretty inefficient & will need a decent amount of power to get to levels that more normal speakers will on 30W or so. The smaller they are the less efficient they are, you can't get away from the laws of physics ;)

I'd suggest you look at some kind of integrated with at least 100W RMS per channel & up to 200W RMS. If you think i'm kidding then look at it like this, a 50W amp with 90Db 1W/1m sensitive speaker will make the same kind of volume in the same room as 200W with an 84Db sensitive speaker...

A big NAD integrated might be the order of the day? :scratch:

[DSJR]

The 10's are less than 84db IIRC and the whole thing about high powered amps is that ATC's compromises consist of a heavy cone which is very heavily damped. This is NOT a criticism at all, just the way they do things. The up-shot is that the load os quite easy, so huge current monsters aren't needed so much.

£300 can usually buy you an AVI S2000 integrated amp. Basically a 100WPC power amp with volume control, it's good overall performance suits the 10's well and it should still be reliable. Until the mid 90's, ATC's sales manager was a director of AVI (and still is ;)). Should you buy an AVI amp and need service, there is now a service guy who is an "approved" engineer for them...

[ikaruga]

Was that the one as part of the mini-midi system TEAC did in the mid nineties? Good little amp I thought, along with many others in the trade, and well up to Arcam's offerings of the period (they hadn't yet reclothed everything in the Diva boxes at this point). The bits that went with it were pretty good too and the whole system (£800 IIRC) gave Denon a few headaches I remember :)

Got the model wrong, AH500 reference series.

It's this one here : http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=159486&postcount=16 & http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=159474&postcount=15

From memory I believe it's from about 2004 - a later iteration. I'm absolutely over the moon with it.

[jandl100]

Hmmm ... there's a certain "magic" - OK, call it good synergy - between the TA2020 chip amps and some speakers. A sense of transparency and full-spectrum control that can't often be found for sensible money in non-class-D 'conventional' tranny amps. It seems that up to a certain loudness/dynamic level that Rob is hearing that with his ATCs.

My own feeling is that Rob will get what he wants from a more powerful T-amp. But many (most!) of them don't have the TA2020's transparency. I recall that Ali has been eulogising over such a beast, and that he said it has better sq than the TA2020 chips - but I can't recall the chip type or make. Can anyone advise? ... Ali? :)

[hoopsontoast]

Thanks, from what I have read is that the ta2022 based amps is that they lack the tranparency and detail in the treble of the ta2020 ones.
I am thinking active may well be a good way to go, with the hypex AS2.100 modules coming down in price.

The scm10s are 80dB/1w/1m btw

[Ali Tait]

Hmmm ... there's a certain "magic" - OK, call it good synergy - between the TA2020 chip amps and some speakers. A sense of transparency and full-spectrum control that can't often be found for sensible money in non-class-D 'conventional' tranny amps. It seems that up to a certain loudness/dynamic level that Rob is hearing that with his ATCs.

My own feeling is that Rob will get what he wants from a more powerful T-amp. But many (most!) of them don't have the TA2020's transparency. I recall that Ali has been eulogising over such a beast, and that he said it has better sq than the TA2020 chips - but I can't recall the chip type or make. Can anyone advise? ... Ali? :)

Were you thinking of the Hlly t amp 90 Jerry?

[jandl100]

Were you thinking of the Hlly t amp 90 Jerry?

NO! - def not! :nono: :zzz: :)

For some reason I remembered you posting that you had a chip amp that could outperform a TA2020 amp's sq but with added power as well - imho a TAMP-90 wouldn't do that - I must be cracking up or summat! :scratch:

[Reid Malenfant]

The scm10s are 80dB/1w/1m btw
:eek: You'll need 100W RMS per channel just to get 100Db in your room :(

I'd start looking for something powerful ;) Or Active & powerful even better :)

[wee tee cee]

The temple audio monoblocks are excellent,though a little out of your budget.A few members rate the temple gold with or without volume pot.
I run four monos, bi-amping utilising the lap top volume control....serious performance for the outlay...the temple guys are excellent to deal with/british built...the monos are less valve sounding,far more solid state attack and speed.
I have a standard bantum which to be honest sounds lovely,valve/ss combo,,,you could try bi-amping a pair if the speakers permit.
Regards Tony.

[DSJR]

:eek: You'll need 100W RMS per channel just to get 100Db in your room :(

I'd start looking for something powerful ;) Or Active & powerful even better :)

Mark, they're not listening :scratch:

[Reid Malenfant]

Mark, they're not listening :scratch:
It's not my setup, so i shouldn't get upset should I ;)

So i'm not going to :)

A Krell KSA250 would wake them up a tad :eyebrows:

[hoopsontoast]

Cheers chaps, spl is not an issue, 100dB is more than enough! Active is calling though, temping.

[Reid Malenfant]

Cheers chaps, spl is not an issue, 100dB is more than enough! Active is calling though, temping.
I think you are wrong here. You are neglecting to think about peak levels, unless you listen to all this modern loudness wars stuff that is :rolleyes:

Now i know i generally listen to about 90Db early on in the evening, which would be about 1W per channel, but there are peaks in there that require a good 10W+. Now 90Db is a reasonable volume, i'd hardly call it loud. You'll need to stuff 10W into your speakers to reach 90Db & then how much are you going to have left over for peaks without clipping if you don't employ a beefy amp?

Just as an example my 90Db speakers are actively driven & each driver can sup up 120W RMS if needs be & i have seen over 300W RMS being stuffed into each bass driver when things get a bit noisier :eyebrows:

Seriously you need to think about an amp of at least 100W RMS with speakers of your sensitivity ;)

That's the last i'll say on the subject, i just hope i don't see you swapping out for something more powerful in the future as i feel sure you will if you don't go there in the first place :cool:

[DSJR]

The active 10's were interesting I think, but by the time the domestic active 20's came along (not the towers, the bigger active 10 with slanty top), the audio market was in free-fall and ATC amongst others were contracting fast, sadly. Their studio work was contracting too as the big studios either shut down (too many bedroom DJ's) or went over to squiddly little desktop "monitors" with bumped up bass and treble...

I must admit that the 20SL Pro's I had were not my favourite speakers, looking back. The bass, despite the very heavy cast cabinet and optional lift adjustment, always had a "stunt-bass" kind of quality, with no "expression" at all. Difficult to put into words, but a sort of flat, thumpy "tuneless" quality best sums it up. The Vifa tweeter didn't like being "activated" in this model either, the refined smoothness of the passive version (and in the 10's you have as well) being substituted for a spiteful, often gritty SSSting at times. maybe my tweeters were duff, I don't know, but when I sold them, the comparison with Croft driven Harbeth P3ESR's (newly launched at the time) was an absolute revelation, the passive model giving nothing away at all IMO..

So, after the blurb above, stick with your 10's, get an amp you like, whatever it is, and enjoy the things, as you're going to have to spend far more to improve on them all round. Even some of the used alternatives a little bit bigger, such as Spendor SP2/2's, will have tightened driver surrounds now, removing bass and "air" from the sound..

By the way, T amps didn't exist back when I owned passive 20's (nearly twenty years ago - yikes!!!! :eek:), but I did try a pair with a Croft OTL amp (30 weedy but crystalline Watts per channel) and it actually worked rather well at low to medium volumes...

[hoopsontoast]

I suppose I could try something more power full.

[DSJR]

Sorry if Mark and I are lecturing you too much, but I SOLD these things and used them with all sorts, as well as visiting the factory regularly at the time (early to late 90's). ATC bass-mid drivers are over-damped, "high inertia" drivers and really need a kick in the pants to get them going at all, hence the suggestion for loads of power. One of the better PA type amps (Alesis 500?) would be fine, along with a properly fettled Quad 405-2. As I think I said earlier, there was an early 90's £100 Sony integrated that worked well and the later Denon PMA450 had enough juice too, since the 10's and 20's offer easy loading despite the lack of sensitivity.

Don't turn your nose up at a Nakamich "Amp 1" either, if ever you see one come up - may be cheap 'cos few in the UK know about these :)

[jandl100]

Mark, they're not listening :scratch:

Not everyone is a brain-dead headbasher, you know - perhaps Rob has more subtle tastes in music. :eyebrows:

Imho - he'll be very hard pressed to match the transparency of the Mini-T amp for the sort of ££ he wishes to spend. It's just a matter of choosing your own priorities.

I used a Mini-T with my 83dB/W MBLs for a month or so. Luvverly-jubbly, I really enjoyed the sound. :) No, it was far from the last word in wall-flexing dynamics and bass slam, but for 90% of my listening that's irrelevant.
Mayhap Rob is similar. :cool:

[Reid Malenfant]

Agreed Jerry, but it's that other 10% that eventually gets you moving on to something else :eyebrows:

If you are going to do a job, do it right first time... I don't like compromises & i find very few other people do after a bit of time either ;)

Imho of course.

[jandl100]

So, it has to be perfect, eh!?

Haha - I've never heard a perfect component or system yet, and I never expect to! ;)

It's all about personal priorities and your own exploratory journey in the end. :)

[Reid Malenfant]

I didn't mention the word "perfect"... I just suggested enough power to drive the speakers for any conceivable volume level ;)

[jandl100]

;)


If you are going to do a job, do it right first time... I don't like compromises

... sounds like only perfick will do to me!

[Reid Malenfant]

;)



... sounds like only perfick will do to me!
Not at all, or maybe i could have picked your 12" Tannoys to bits at Scalford earlier this year?

I think you are picking at little bits Jerry... All I'm suggesting is the OP has the power to drive his speakers to a reasonable level, I haven't suggested just because he may buy an amp that could do it that it'd be perfect. You came up with that suggestion :rolleyes:

As it is i was impressed with the sound you produced, but it wasn't perfect now was it :eyebrows:

[jandl100]

I've never heard a perfect component or system yet, and I never expect to! ;)


What more can I say?

Your requirement for "No compromises" strongly implies perfection to me.

[jandl100]

Oh, and btw - they weren't my Tannoys.

I bet I could have picked more holes in them than you could! :lol:

[Reid Malenfant]

Jerry, i'm sorry but i fail to understand why you are quoting yourself & then giving yourself a big pat on the back? :scratch:

Unless you are under the influence i ask you to look again at what i have said...

I never mentioned perfect, i just said the OP might want an amp that will serve him better more than 90% of the time :eyebrows:

[jandl100]

Jerry, i'm sorry but i fail to understand why you are quoting yourself & then giving yourself a big pat on the back? :scratch:

Are you really this thick? Why don't you look at what I said?


I never mentioned perfect, i just said the OP might want an amp that will serve him better more than 90% of the time :eyebrows:

You're getting as bad as DSJR. :rolleyes: Telling folks what they must have.

Personally I'd rather have 90% of my music at a 8/10 sound quality than 100% at 6/10.

It's down to personal choice.

[Reid Malenfant]

Are you really this thick? Why don't you look at what I said?
:rolleyes: I think you need to look at what i said! I simply suggested that the OP supplied himself with an amp that would cover both low & high volume levels...



You're getting as bad as DSJR. :rolleyes: Telling folks what they must have.

Personally I'd rather have 90% of my music at a 8/10 sound quality than 100% at 6/10.

It's down to personal choice.
Ah, are you getting at Dave because he has posted in this thread & happens to be of the same opinion, IE the OP might need a bit more power if he turns things up a bit?

While I support what you say (other than calling me thick! You know feck all about me so do not go insulting me!) there still remains the question of peak power levels & clipped waveforms due to inadequate amplifier power when dealing with 80DB/1W/1M speakers...

We are not talking Tannoys here, so use your head ;)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Come on now guys - this is a bit of a misunderstanding, surely?

Mark, Jerry has explained twice now where you gave him the impression that you expect perfection.
To be honest, that's exactly how I read the following words too. "If you are going to do a job, do it right first time... I don't like compromises & i find very few other people do after a bit of time either"

....time to accept it, then kiss & make up, I reckon, mate.

[DSJR]

Jerry, in your myriad of gear swaps, have you ever had ATC 10's or 20's at home for any length of time? I only ask this respectfully because of all the speakers I've ever known, they are notoriously inefficient, the moving parts are heavy and EXTREMELY over-damped. I think I can be assertive on this one because of my past dealings with ATC when these speakers were current models, that's all. Hopefully, you've noticed that I tend to keep away from products I don't know, not always, but usually :)

I'm sure a Mini-T amp will work with highly efficient speakers (I just found it sounded like a cheap early 70's Japanese amp with shedloads of crossover distortion, but as Alex said, I was being too unkind to it in his opinion). Into the 10's, which are several db less efficient that other speakers of the same size, I honestly think it's going to struggle - HARD. But hey, the OP can do what he darned well likes - and obviously will.

To end on a positive note, I have only had the good fortune to hear the Parasound amps on a couple of occasions and I also thought them excellent. the trouble is, the sheep-like mentality of those (me included) who go for "established fashionable "names," prevented them getting the exposure they deserve - their popularity? in the AV market possibly not helping at the time I think... Now if we were talking about a Parasound power amp to drive the 10's.....:lolsign:

[Reid Malenfant]

Come on now guys - this is a bit of a misunderstanding, surely?

Mark, Jerry has explained twice now where you gave him the impression that you expect perfection.
To be honest, that's exactly how I read the following words too. "If you are going to do a job, do it right first time... I don't like compromises & i find very few other people do after a bit of time either"

....time to accept it, then kiss & make up, I reckon, mate.
Yes it is entirely a misunderstanding Chris...

I think you are slightly misunderstanding as well. A compromise would be an amplifier that couldn't drive the speaker properly, where as an amplifier that would be able to drive it fully would be ideal, or if you like non compromising. There was no mention of "perfection", which is plain for all to see, so that was simply the way Jerry interpreted things :(

& then he started getting personal...

Apparently you appear to think the same :scratch: As i say, there is no mention of perfection in any of my posts, just optimisation or if you like "matching" of an inefficient speaker to an amp that will make it produce more than 93Db (which is the max that you'd get out off the speaker with 20W).

Please remember we are talking about a speaker with 80Db/1W/1M hear & not some 93Db Tannoy.

The thing i accept is i never mentioned the word perfection. This is other peoples imagination..

[jandl100]

....time to ... kiss & make up, I reckon, mate.

Kiss Mark? :kiss: ... Me? ... have you seen the guy?! :wowzer:

[Reid Malenfant]

Alright Jerry, lifes too short to be silly about things..

Looks like we are both as stuborn as mules :eyebrows:

:grouphug:

[jandl100]

Alright Jerry, lifes too short to be silly about things..

Looks like we are both as stuborn as mules :eyebrows:

:grouphug:

So ... I'm "silly" now am I? :steam:

And stubborn? Me? :scratch:

Aw shucks - that's the nicest thing you've said in ages. :ner:

:peace:

:)

[DSJR]

Looks like ATC passive speakers are going to end up the bad smell here that Harbeths are on HDD :(

Ah well, who's next I wonder :lolsign:

[jandl100]

Jerry, in your myriad of gear swaps, have you ever had ATC 10's or 20's at home for any length of time?

Hi Dave

No, I've not owned either of those speakers, I've only had (very briefly) some active SCM10.

ATCs are generally not to my tastes - I find them tonally thin and bright as a rule. But that's fine - some folks really do love them, I'm cool with that.

My point really was that the OP has said he likes the sound with the Mini-T in his room with 90% of his listening. And like most of us here, Rob's been into this hobby long enough to make his own mind up about these things.
Sending him down the route of a Big Power amp just doesn't seem appropriate in the circumstances .. although I am sure my Parasound would be fab!

Rob, as I think he has said, would like a bit more of what he has already now got with the Mini-T.

[DSJR]

You certainly wouldn't like the AVI Pro-Nines either then Jerry, as, despite a 9db sensitivity advantage over the ATC's (89db/W is claimed), the forward upper mid and lean-tuned bass does take some getting used to (I'm being sensitive here) - the "Plus" version does have a slightly bigger box, so may flesh the bass out a tad more. I must admit to returning to the Spendors downstairs with a huge sigh of relief :)

[hoopsontoast]

Blimey, been a bit of activity, been away for a few days. Just got the stands home, and they are indeed Target R1's for the tiny sum of £31! I paid £130 for my last ones!
Had a particularly big couple of days in Brighton so any new hifi is of for the month!

[hoopsontoast]

Well, had a late night listening session, and I was not expecting it but the stands did make a subtle but big overall improvement.
When I had the SCM7's and added the Target R1's, they improved the Bass and soundstage, this is what happened this time, but it all fell together.
Some test CD's-
http://www.classiclps.co.uk/images/shopcovers/P00028.jpg
Lau - Lightweights and Gentlemen
http://www.postrockxchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/iliketrains-progress-reform-2006.jpg
iliketrains - Progress Reform
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jXcIdC0TPic/S2B4R5QoyMI/AAAAAAAAFa8/2o1FImLxk20/s400/Fleetwood+Mac+-+Live+At+The+Boston+Tea+Party+-+Part+One+(Front).jpg
Fleetwood Mac - Boston Tea Party Live

And the focus has really sharpened, very defined soundstage and now no hint of misplaced bass at all! This was at very low level and apart from the vocals being a little recessed (the drawback of the 10's slightly darker character) its something i think i can live with for the moment!

As i mentioned, I appreciate your concern over the power needed, and agree, if it was a larger room (having heard what the SCM7's with 250w of Audiolab 8200MB Power up them does) but my room is very small, and i dont listen at all loud. I am quite happy atm. Looking forward to discovering some of the CD's that have not been played in a good while! :)