Graphics on Electronic Kit - How's it Done?

[Big Vern]

Was wondering if anyone could help me out, please? I have a couple of restoration projects on the go, included in which is the aspect of cosmetics. I have been pondering how manufacturers get the lettering/logos printed onto their kit - is it silk screen printing?

Is anyone able to point me in the right direction, please? Any details of companies offering this facility would be a real boon, but just understanding how it is achieved would be a real start. At the end of the day, I can try to work 'round the lettering, but colour matching becomes a major headache, so if the lettering can be re-done, that would be a massive help...:)

In anticipation and with thanks in advance for any assistance...

Best Wishes,

Paul.

[Rare Bird]

I've asked numerous screen printers for quotes, they will only entertain multiple jobs, i have a few items thats been packed away waiting for the day..Let me know if you find someone who will do one offs please Paul.

[Big Vern]

I've asked numerous screen printers for quotes, they will only entertain multiple jobs, i have a few items thats been packed away waiting for the day..Let me know if you find someone who will do one offs please Paul.

Hi Andre,

Will do - this is the big issue for folks like us - people are only interested in big numbers (I stress, I can see their point). I had considered investing in a screen printing kit, but I'm saying this having done no research on cost (probably a lot higher than I'd want) and on the basis that the process looks simple enough (YouTube), but when experts do it, it always does look simple enough! :lol:

Cheers, Andre,

Paul.

[bogle111]

Hi Paul and Andre

A friend of mine does very high quality work that is sent worldwide. "Dry transfer" which is different than silk screening and is not to be confused with "decals", but may be the way out at an economical cost. The killer is the artwork. If it can be supplied in Illustrator to the required sizes, then something can be done at maybe an acceptable price. I was thinking of having some Technics Quartz logos done.

What were the logos you were looking at and I'll see the artwork involved - we do design at work.

[Rare Bird]

Thats intresting Peter, i'm lucky i suppose as i only require standard higher case bold TIMES NEW ROMAN & High/Low case bold Ariel text
Is the transfers hard wearing do you know as i wouldnt want any sealer over the top as the metal work is matt silver anodize?

[Big Vern]

Hi Paul and Andre

A friend of mine does very high quality work that is sent worldwide. "Dry transfer" which is different than silk screening and is not to be confused with "decals", but may be the way out at an economical cost. The killer is the artwork. If it can be supplied in Illustrator to the required sizes, then something can be done at maybe an acceptable price. I was thinking of having some Technics Quartz logos done.

What were the logos you were looking at and I'll see the artwork involved - we do design at work.

Hi Peter,

Many thanks - this sounds very interesting. Whilst my request is not quite as simple as Andre's, neither is it particularly complex and it may fall within a recognised type setting...I'll send you a PM, we can exchange e-mails and I can take some pictures for you to assess, if that would be in order?

Very Best Wishes,

Paul.

[bogle111]

Thats intresting Peter, i'm lucky i suppose as i only require standard higher case bold TIMES NEW ROMAN & High/Low case bold Ariel text
Is the transfers hard wearing do you know as i wouldnt want any sealer over the top as the metal work is matt silver anodize?

Hi Andre,

My apologies for no reply as I never went back to this thread so didn't know you had posted. I managed in the end to speak with Paul and got the artwork done for him. If you speak with Paul, he can tell you the results and any limitations and no, you do not need any lacquer over the top.

Regards
Pete

[BTH K10A]

I thought most face plates started out with an anodised panel and were photo etched to produce th finished product. Depending on whether a negative or positive was used determined the finished effect. Thats why most companies only offered balck on silver or silver on black.

This link might help

http://www.chempix.com/

[MartinT]

Hi Paul

When I helped a mate respray a NAD front panel many years ago, we obtained some Letraset transfers in the closest font we could match to the original and applied them one letter at a time to the removed & sprayed front panel. Then we finished it off with a clear lacquer spray. It took some patience but the end result was convincing to all who saw it.

http://www.letraset.com/products/91-Lettering/

[bogle111]

I thought most face plates started out with an anodised panel and were photo etched to produce th finished product. Depending on whether a negative or positive was used determined the finished effect. Thats why most companies only offered balck on silver or silver on black.

This link might help

http://www.chempix.com/

I have seen some photo-etched on some of the later Japanese products, though a lot of the earlier ones were silk screened, and they did it well, though they were doing it in large numbers. No computer power then like we have now. The ones made were "Dry Transfers". They were done in black, white and red as close as possible to the originals, with the red being from a CMYK colour chart.

Logos were vectorised whilst the font was chosen separately. Getting the artwork right is the hardest part as far as I know - it took some while to do as we have as comprehensive list of fonts as any design studio. Some fonts are free, but at between £10 to £35 per font set for the specialist ones, it can be an expensive business! Font catalogues can run into tens of thousands as we have, though with the help of "Font Detective" it can be narrowed down a bit. Then you also need a suitable design package software that can export as an .ai file the finished design ready to be made.

Big Vern can fill you in on the application and the measurement side of things and I think he will have some pictures as well of the finished article.

[BTH K10A]

I have seen some photo-etched on some of the later Japanese products, though a lot of the earlier ones were silk screened, and they did it well, though they were doing it in large numbers. No computer power then like we have now. The ones made were "Dry Transfers". They were done in black, white and red as close as possible to the originals, with the red being from a CMYK colour chart.

Logos were vectorised whilst the font was chosen separately. Getting the artwork right is the hardest part as far as I know - it took some while to do as we have as comprehensive list of fonts as any design studio. Some fonts are free, but at between £10 to £35 per font set for the specialist ones, it can be an expensive business! Font catalogues can run into tens of thousands as we have, though with the help of "Font Detective" it can be narrowed down a bit. Then you also need a suitable design package software that can export as an .ai file the finished design ready to be made.

Big Vern can fill you in on the application and the measurement side of things and I think he will have some pictures as well of the finished article.

In the electronics industry, photo etching had largely replaced silk screening by the the early 70's. There may have been some of the smaller companies who were not using it but it was much cheaper option for the big producers.

[The Black Adder]

A place like this will be able to do what your after.

http://www.beaumont-ltd.co.uk/control%20panel.htm

I have worked with places in the past that screen print and (even better) anodise lettering but for the latter your base material needs to be very good quality indeed so that rules out any kind of hifi gear as although facia materials may look and feel quality 99% of the time they aren't, well not good enough for anodising on to anyway. Screen printing, fine.

Screen print or machine engraved/etched are your best bet.

[bogle111]

A place like this will be able to do what your after.

http://www.beaumont-ltd.co.uk/control%20panel.htm

I have worked with places in the past that screen print and (even better) anodise lettering but for the latter your base material needs to be very good quality indeed so that rules out any kind of hifi gear as although facia materials may look and feel quality 99% of the time they aren't, well not good enough for anodising on to anyway. Screen printing, fine.

Screen print or machine engraved/etched are your best bet.

"Screen print or machine engraved/etched are your best bet." Yes, I agree.

Not all the requirements for the "named" area are on metal though. Some is on wood and painted, where you would have to strip the item down in order to get to.

I should have stated that this was for Restoration work and not Production runs. We have a small £16k engraver we bought in '97 that does excellent engraving, the results are pin sharp. As you say though, the base material has to be top rate.

The other problem is, the cost of doing a "one off" would be exorbitant, surely, whichever other method was used apart from Dry Transfers? Shipping wise, they are about 50p to post UK.

For restoration work, I reckoned it was the most cost efficient. The guy that made them has also done work for Aardman Productions and Starbucks in Seattle recently and his work first rate.

Regards
Pete

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Speaking as F8 Creates
If anyone needs logos redrawing we do that ... Files can be supplied in EPS PDF JPEG PSD what ever is needed at what ever size what ever res etc we would just need somthing to work from that can be effectively traced ...
Not sure of the legality of such things mind, when we have done it it's for clients who have lost or never had original "master" versions of logos or were never supplied brand guidelines etc
If someone wants something doing and can convince me that in doing it we wouldn't be doing anything we shouldn't be then we would be happy to help I'm sure ... And I doubt it would be much £££ as these sorts of things wouldn't be very complicated I'd guess...?

[bogle111]

Speaking as F8 Creates
Not sure of the legality of such things mind, when we have done it it's for clients who have lost or never had original "master" versions of logos or were never supplied brand guidelines etc
If someone wants something doing and can convince me that in doing it we wouldn't be doing anything we shouldn't be then we would be happy to help I'm sure ...

You have no problem with the legalities. Whilst the owner of the Logo etc. owns the artwork, the user still has fair usage rights. Renovation comes under fair usage. As the manufacturer doesn't offer them, then the user is entitled to have one made. If you were to advertise them ready made on Fleabay, that could be seen as profiteering from a manufacturer's Copyrighted logo.

Anyway, you are not selling the logo, you are selling a service or a label or sign. It is when it is used illegally that you have complications. It is the same with fonts. The owner of the font would be within his rights to proceed against someone who was reselling the font - his work. If, however that font is used during the execution toward the goal of say, making a sign, or designing a logo or a catalogue, then the font is not being resold. The sign or end product is being sold.

We checked all this out legally when we set up the company, including the use of fonts. Some freeware fonts stipulate that the font cannot be used for commercial use, otherwise a fee is payable. This why Adobe and other software providers include fonts with the package.

As it was, I did the artwork for free helping people out. If I, however, copied a logo (artwork) that I knew was going to be used to deceive or trading off and sold the logo (artwork), then that is another matter.

Perhaps you can tell me where a photographer stands if he takes a picture of a very interesting house in a landscape, does the photographer need to seek permission to use that house picture for profitable purposes, such as widespread publication?

Regards
Peter

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Cheers for that!

As for the photography ... As far as I know, as long as you are on public land you can take a photo of what ever you like and use it however you like provided it isn't or could be concidered an invasion of privacy!
So no telephoto shots into peoples bedroom windows ;)

It may of course be the polite thing to do to ask the owner of the building though...
But then google didn't ask everyone one in the uk before they went around in thier special cars with cameras in the top taking photos of everyone's houses ...

A lot of this sort of thing comes down to grey area and personal ethics

For eg, not so long ago I took a photo of a house on an island in Worcester, it is a private house but it is also somewhat of a landmark ... Because of this I felt a lot more comfortable taking a photo of it than I would taking a photo of a randomly chosen house on a street of terraced properties!

I know a chap who does almost solely technical architectural photography ... He contacts owners of houses that are of architectural significance and asks them if he can photograph thier houses!

I'd probably suggest that double checking that info would be wise ... But that is how I know it, I am no lawyer though ;)

[Big Vern]

Just come across this updated thread wot I started a few months back. Peter (bogle111) contacted me and offered to help; a double restoration on two Onkyo turntables and an L-07D (I don't believe in an easy life...clearly:doh:). I'm going to spare you the details of the Onkyo restoration for now, 'cause I'm planning a 'with photos' thread on it when everything is done...standby your beds! :)

Finding a company/individual to help with such a limited production run was proving extremely difficult, and the project would just not have looked right with the logo/lettering missing. However, this is where Peter came to my rescue. I took a series of detailed images of the lettering, with a suitably located metal ruler to assist with correct sizes. Peter then went away, designed the lettering with the relevant skill and software and had the decals produced for me...the results have been stunning :cool: I am yet to add them to the Onkyo as the plinth is being renovated at present, but I have attached a picture of the L-07D with the replacement lettering applied...the turntable in question is with Richard at Vantage Audio for serious restoration, having been damaged last year; the original lettering could not be saved, so the whole plinth was restored.

Here's the restored L-07D plinth:

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x471/vermontdankin/NewKenwoodLettering.jpg

I'll be posting a monster PX-100M restoration story soon(ish), but I felt I simply had to acknowledge Peter's fantastic help and support and thank him publicly...lovely guy and very skilled:)

Best Wishes,