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Saul too much
01-10-2011, 09:42
Hello all,I just picked up a set of these for around 100 with the intention of using them in a new living room set up.I try not to be a hifi buff but I know plenty of people here are very knowledgable . Can anyone suggest amps that would be worth trialling with these.I listen to everything from classical/jazz to rock so I'm hoping to get something versatile with decent soundstaging/depth,rhythm , a touch of warmth reasonable dynamics. I'm not loaded so I'll be looking at used gear under 250 and using an oldish slightly analogue cdp such as Rotel 965 or Cambridge cd4se as a source.
So far I'm thinking Pioneer A400 or Cyrus 2 may be worth a listen but I'd really value further suggestions.
thanks in advance
Steve

MartinT
01-10-2011, 10:37
You could try anything from the warm-ish NAD 3020 (you'll get one for under 100) to one of the better class T amps - bright-ish but highly detailed sound. These you could buy new with your budget. The A400 is also a good amp. Also look at one of the Fatmans if you want a valve amp.

What kind of music do you listen to and how loud do you need it to go?

Saul too much
01-10-2011, 10:49
Thanks for the reply Martin,a lad on another forum has them running happily on a Nad pre power set up so may be worth considering.
The room is fairly small. Bog standard 80s terraced living room, slightly lively acoustics that I may need to address with some wall hanging.Essentially not going to need massive volume.My old 30watt amp never went past 12 oclock with a pair of reasonably efficient cyrus 780s(8ohm 90dbw I think).
I have a Trends T amp but it's pretty low output,certainly not enough for the Tangents. It is detailed but seems to lack dynamics and depth tho that could be the speakers of course.I'd consider another T amp but I thought they all had to be lower powered due to the nature of the tripath chip. Not investigated them for a while.Do you know of one with a decent output I should look into?

The Grand Wazoo
01-10-2011, 10:57
Hi Steven,
I know you sort of introduced yourself in the user name thread but would you mind starting a new thread in the Welcome section? To do things properly, you should tell us a little about yourself, your system & musical taste.

It's important that you do this because then you'll have enough posts under your belt so that I can send you a private message with a tip for a brilliant amp at a great price that I've spotted for you (I have no connection with the seller other than being a previous customer).

Cheers

Saul too much
01-10-2011, 10:58
As for music I really do listen to a wide range from classical especially piano/guitar,singer songwriters and jazz through to punk,prog,indie and folk. I'm no fan of banging stuff or metal tho . I'm trying to square the circle to some degree and get a genuine allrounder set up. Previously I've tried Naim (Nait 3,too harsh) and Exposure 20(better but noisy),audiolab 8000a(too cold) with epos es11s, then a valve kit that was too muddy which led to some high sensitivity speakers and then a sonic impact followed by trends t amp.Which ultimately led to a system with a NAD cdp at the head which I just didnt listen to.

MartinT
01-10-2011, 11:45
I think you're talking yourself into acquiring an A400, then.

DSJR
01-10-2011, 13:33
If the RS2's are the "classic" original ones (almost certainly they are), then you'll have a highly characterful and often magical little box there, BUT with reservations on partnering equipment (I sold these enough at the time).

These do have a tweaked response which favours "musicality" and an "enhanced" soundstage over clinical flat response etc and in the Tangents of the period (TM3 and 1/RS2 and 4) it worked really well as long as very high volumes were avoided. They did need a little more power though as sensitivity wasn't their strong point. HiFi Choice "recommended" them too, which is no mean achievement (yes, I do have a copyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz)

Regarding amps, a properly fettled A&R A60 would be the minimum I think. One of the sweeter Japanese integrates being re-discovered (some of the Luxmans, Sansuis and Denons from the mid 70's - the NAD 3020 may be too bloated possibly) would work I think. A mate's Sony TA5650 V-FET amp was lovely with his RS4's, but all of these amps will need preventative service to certain caps and diodes, if a fatal (to amp and speakers) blow-up is to be avoided, as happened to his sample (check on the vintage-knob site as there's some info there).

Ideally, a bolt-up Naim would be PERFECT for these Tangents. very rare now, as they're collectors items but a re-built 120 power amp (or bolt-up 250) with suitable preamp (not so critical) will be a true marriage in heaven. A top notch source (vinyl or CD, it doesn't matter - if it's a good one) will be needed as well. The LP12/Grace 707/Supex 900E being ideally "adequate" then, or possibly a VERY well fettled Rega 3 with original R200 arm and one of their cartridges I think, or possibly a Grado or Stanton 681EEE at a pinch (for sweetness sake).

The Grand Wazoo
01-10-2011, 14:58
Steven,
You've a PM now

Saul too much
02-10-2011, 08:43
If the RS2's are the "classic" original ones (almost certainly they are), then you'll have a highly characterful and often magical little box there, BUT with reservations on partnering equipment (I sold these enough at the time).

These do have a tweaked response which favours "musicality" and an "enhanced" soundstage over clinical flat response etc and in the Tangents of the period (TM3 and 1/RS2 and 4) it worked really well as long as very high volumes were avoided. They did need a little more power though as sensitivity wasn't their strong point. HiFi Choice "recommended" them too, which is no mean achievement (yes, I do have a copyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzz)

Regarding amps, a properly fettled A&R A60 would be the minimum I think. One of the sweeter Japanese integrates being re-discovered (some of the Luxmans, Sansuis and Denons from the mid 70's - the NAD 3020 may be too bloated possibly) would work I think. A mate's Sony TA5650 V-FET amp was lovely with his RS4's, but all of these amps will need preventative service to certain caps and diodes, if a fatal (to amp and speakers) blow-up is to be avoided, as happened to his sample (check on the vintage-knob site as there's some info there).

Ideally, a bolt-up Naim would be PERFECT for these Tangents. very rare now, as they're collectors items but a re-built 120 power amp (or bolt-up 250) with suitable preamp (not so critical) will be a true marriage in heaven. A top notch source (vinyl or CD, it doesn't matter - if it's a good one) will be needed as well. The LP12/Grace 707/Supex 900E being ideally "adequate" then, or possibly a VERY well fettled Rega 3 with original R200 arm and one of their cartridges I think, or possibly a Grado or Stanton 681EEE at a pinch (for sweetness sake).

I had noticed on Audio Karma a big love of 70s Japanese gear,solid warm and powerful seems to be the identity. I'd have though the Naim would be quite different in approach and hard/expensive to aquire.Elsewhere Exposure,Rega,Rotel,NAD have all been suggested.At present I'm thinking the route to take is to go MOR and match the speakers with a 90s rotel just to trial cdps then once the source is established look further at amp options.
What is it about the 70s Japanese stuff and the old Naim unit you mention that particularly work with these speakers?
The other advantage to going rotel is that I can pick up a familiar speaker Mission/cyrus 780 and assess cdps in the context of an amp/speaker combination I am familiar with that balanced well.I'd forgotten how complicated this whole separates business gets!

Saul too much
02-10-2011, 08:45
I think you're talking yourself into acquiring an A400, then.

Perhaps at the right price,along with a rotel

hifi_dave
02-10-2011, 09:29
What is it about the 70s Japanese stuff and the old Naim unit you mention that particularly work with these speakers?


Because they were designed and voiced with Naim.

DSJR
02-10-2011, 09:58
I'd have though the Naim would be quite different in approach and hard/expensive to aquire.



This is the trouble with posting the same question all over the place, as you'll no doubt get a different answer from dozens of people who don't even know what RS2's are and how they were "voiced" at the time....

I really don't wish to sound patronising and apologies if I do, but Naim have changed quite dramatically in tonal presentation over the decades, even if the overall standard hasn't always moved on that much (in my opinion). The original "Bolt-Up" stuff had a FAR looser and more "valvey" kind of presentation, even if they ate their original power supply caps and drifted all over the place as seems common for many Naim "era's." It's the CB and Olive naim era's you have to be careful of, although most of these now will be on their second and even third service now, since they're quite old now (especially the circa thirty year old CB range).

I should also mention that CURRENT Naim gear seems to sound rather opposite to the often astringent CB era, the sometimes harsh-hitting quality traded for a beefy, if slightly now "shut-in" quality IMO. Tests in HFW seem to back this up, the higher order distortion (which isn't very low) being traded for more low-order, which may not be as "irritating on the ears" as the amps drift off spec. Just my views, but I think these opinions can be backed up with some sort of evidence, and not just an opinion based on listening tests.....


Maybe I've over-stressed the matching issue with the RS2's, but to fully appreciate what they're all about, it really is well worth the effort to match them with sympathetic gear - good valves too should be considered - Apollon? for not much money????? Get this right and I promise you the results will be worth it :)

Saul too much
02-10-2011, 10:01
I hadnt seen mention of that. So would a suitably powered Exposure or rega be likely to work well with them? I didnt take to the Nait 3 but I realise it's not the best example.The problem with Naim of course is that it is pricy even used.I suppose the upside is that you can get your cash back if it daesnt suit.I noticed an AR A60 on flea bay for 40

DSJR
02-10-2011, 10:14
Old amps from any manufacturer may need a re-cap and re-set up, so the budget should be there to acommodate this. The A60 is a case in point, depending on it's long history in use. Not many manufacturers allowed a large margin in their supply capacitor choice and many amps (but I appreciate not all) do seem to need these replaced after thirty years or so

The old Exposure stuff will also work, with the service proviso above, Rotel's from the late 80's (preferable the "9" series in this case I think) will make inexpensive partners I think. The Naim Nait 3 wasn't at all bad when new, but could possibly be a bit limp-wristed driving the RS2's and the sample you heard may by now need a service to fine-tune the internal settings. The original Myryad integrated (MI-120) is lovely if you can find one and even the much underrated but not very versatile Quad 77 integrated will surprise I think. back to Arcam, the Delta 90, Alpha 9 and 10 and the larger FMJ series should also be ok. The Alpha 8 amp was too harsh and "ringy" IMO..

I think the trend coming through is for a big-hearted and large-supplied amp, rather than the "turn-on-a-sixpence" style of screamer so often favoured by the likes of WHF in their over-damped listening room(s)

Saul too much
02-10-2011, 10:46
No need to worry about patronising me Dave.I have good ears I think but limited knowledge so I'm happy to be the good fool who cannot feel patronised.
The NAIM you mention I assume is the NAp250 that goes for around 800 plus. No sign of any 120s! I appreciate your time/effort in giving me a full considered reply.
I posted my question on two sites where I had seen Tangents discussed. Course you're right about the risk that entails in the kind of answers likely but it's worth sifting through.Ultimately it just allows me to make more informed choices of what to try.
Course at the end of the day it becomes subjective either way!
Having previously like Exposure gear I'm certainly tempted by one of their pre/power combinations which can be had for better prices than NAIM but share some of their properties.I'm not sure I'd be keen on something that drifts(assume you mean the image/soundstage).
Valve gear is also interesting and I'd look into it.I moved from an exposure 20 to a kit valve set up that was just too murky.I'm sure other stuff will be better.Mind you that's two ends of a spectrum to some extent.I'll look into some more of those suggestions. I suspect there will be a fair bit of buying trying and selling over the next few months but the beauty of freely available used gear is that you can try things out without losing much on resale.

Rare Bird
02-10-2011, 11:18
A&R Cambs 'SA150'/'200' were a good power amp.

DSJR
02-10-2011, 11:47
By "drifting," I meant the internal setup-voltages, which are known to go off after a few months/years in older Naim gear and affects case temperature as well as sonics. When a vintage Naim is serviced properly, it should be completely re-set up internally - and usually is in fairness. Quite often, CB era amps come back sounding far better than they ever did when new.

Yep, the NAP120 is very rare indeed, but was a real giant killer, helping more than you'd think to establish the brand originally. a MUCH better sound than the scraggy old NAP110 IMO.

Saul too much
02-10-2011, 11:52
Right I'm with you.Expensive stuff though! I should try to find a solution that works for less really inspite of the temptation to give one a try.

Saul too much
03-10-2011, 21:00
They arrived and I'm impressed.They do most things very well.Certainly image nicely and seem to disappear as a point source to some degree.Good bass response for something this size and not the irritating bouncy bass you get with something like BR2s. They seem very nimble and have a very real tone especially with acoustic instruments.Couple of times things in the upper mid area seemed to be lower in the mix than I've been used to but nothing to disturbing.
Trialling a few cdps, the NAD C541i which I previously found to bright /hard sounded good with Floyd and acoustic stuff but when it came to Miles Davis quartet the hardness of the leading edge of notes began to grate.The Rotel 965 seems to handle that better although it is less detailed and crisp and possibly less rhythmic.The Cambridge did seem brighter and more rhythmic than the Rotel and less detailed than the NAD.
Could certainly take some time to work out hich cdp is most suitable all round.Currently only have my bedside stereo(a newish Marantz CR502) to use with the speakers.Rated 40wpc into 8 ohms.Doing ok with the quartet stuff at lowish levels but RogerWaters bass got at a bit boomy at times earlier.
I'm thinking something voiced on the slightly warm side with good PRaT would be ideal with these.Would need a fair output though to control the bass I guess.

The Grand Wazoo
09-10-2011, 12:39
Steven,
This might be to your advantage - take a wee peeky over here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=256940#post256940)

Cheers

DSJR
09-10-2011, 16:29
I dare not say anything about the amp for fear of shilling accusations from elsewhere -

:sofa:

However, regarding CD players. The Rotel you have (965BX?) could sound a bit bright and scraggy - a bit like the CD65KI I seem to remember, but it should make a wonderful transport I think to go with some of the new inexpensive DACs out there. The tangents are wonderful at reproducing reverb and depth, even if they "tailor it" slightly, as you've noticed. Like I said, play to their strengths and they're wonderful.

Saul too much
09-10-2011, 22:13
Thanks chaps,the creek may fit the bill although I've also found a Myryad MI 120 for a similar price and of course there is the temptation to work through a few older classic amps aswell to satisfy my curiosity although clearly the older the gear the greater the risk especially as I'm no electrician and am acutely aware that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
The old Rotel cdp if anything doesnt seem excessively bright .Certainly less so than the cambridge and NAD units I've tried it alongside.Having looked into older cdps a little further I also tracked down an equally ancient Rotel 855 which uses the classic philips TDA1541a DAC and can be modified reasonably easily(at least it appears so!)
I have scored an old Rotel 820ax amp simply as a starting point so I can get my Bedside stereo back where it belongs.
I'm also acutely aware that I need to address the acoustics of my living room which are at present rather bouncy.The smart thing to do would be to sort the room out a bit first and do the mods on the cdp and decide if that will be the primary source then try a few amps out.
It's curious how little there is online about the creek evo 1 and the Myryad MI120.No doubt in 4 years time I'll be trying to pick up a Brio R !

DSJR
10-10-2011, 12:12
I sold the MI 120 and loved it dearly. Designed by the same chap who did the A&R A60 (Chris Evans - no not that one :)), it takes over where the old A60 tails off, improves it, and gives the sound a kick up the rear. There was a good phono stage for it too and a matching power amp for bi-amping (recommended at the time for those who could do this with these). Only weakness for me was a 10K input impedance on the line inputs, a bit low for some cheaper stuff, but pretty commonplace I think for some ss gear...

I don't know what Myryad are doing now, as they're practically a Sevenoaks exclusive (they lost many independant dealers when they went this way :(), but I think they're alright.

Saul too much
10-10-2011, 19:14
Sounds like a good option at the price its at.Have started to cure the room dynamics a little by repositioning the speakers.Cleared up some resonant bass notes.Still a little on the bright side which seems to make the rotel cdp appear the better of the 3 I have here at present.Curiously it doesnt have the best resolution or separation but it does seem to make music sound coherent. The cambridge seems too bright and the NAD if anything is too accurate and detailed,which might seem an odd thing to say but I find when separation and detail is too rigid I end up hearing the bits rather than the whole. The only down with the rotel seems to be a bit of grainy raspiness on some instruments,not harsh or sharp just grainy.Will be interesting to see how they sound with the rotel amp which should be here tomorrow.
What bit I've been able to dig up on the myryad does sound positive,PRaT ambience and a decent soundstage apparently.How does it stack up against the current Brio R?

Saul too much
13-10-2011, 11:39
The rotel sounds a little thin still with the 855 out front.I'm going to mod that anyway and picked the rotel up primarily for my son as he's at the age where he will appreciate a decent bit of kit.
Have taken Alex's creek and intend taking the myryad too given the ringing endorsements. One will eventually stay.Getting the cd source right may be trickier.As for the tangents I still find the vocal a little too far back at times tho admittedly this has not been with ideal gear upstream. They do strings and percussive stuff very well(almost too well on some tracks) and even with the rotel pair there is some depth to the soundstage.
Hoping to pick up a cheap set of 780 speakers too as a referenece point to see if its just my imagination that is making me think the vocals are too far back or whether its a symptom of the upper mid suck out.
All very interesting but I'm looking forward to the day when everything is in place and I can forget about the gear I'm using.

DSJR
13-10-2011, 12:01
MISSION 780'sssssssssssssssss? A step backward methinks. The 751's were far better and looked better too.

In one of the pro mags, the long disconinued B&W 303 came out really well as long as deafening listening levels weren't required - and fared better than a couple of cheaper "pro" speakers (Dynaudio and KRK IRC) if not thrashed. See if you can find some :)

Saul too much
14-10-2011, 16:27
MISSION 780'sssssssssssssssss? A step backward methinks. The 751's were far better and looked better too.

In one of the pro mags, the long disconinued B&W 303 came out really well as long as deafening listening levels weren't required - and fared better than a couple of cheaper "pro" speakers (Dynaudio and KRK IRC) if not thrashed. See if you can find some :)

I had cyrus 780s for a while admittedly with a basic rotel amp but I dont remember an issue with sibilance. Nice midrange and and nothing too harsh in the treble.They're cheap and familiar as a reference point.I think the 780se was essentially the cyrus model under a different name.I will keep an eye out for the other bits.
Running the cambridge cdp through the rotel it no longer seems excessively bright.I have noted ,with further research,that a lot of people are dispensing with cdps altogether and using squeezeboxes and dacs like beresford and Rega.Makes sense i guess as cdps will always pack up eventually.Suppose you'd still keep cds or a back up hard drive at least.Things have certainly moved on apace.
Makes me want to get my vinyl and the old technics deck out of the loft.

spendorman
14-10-2011, 17:40
Two pairs of Tangent RS2's here, quite nice speakers, they have a nice bass for a smallish speaker. The T27 can reveal any slight hardness in an amp. Not that efficient, and will not take a lot of power, so not for disco use!

Some might say that the RS2 sounds like an LS3/5a with bass.

Alex_UK
14-10-2011, 19:59
Makes me want to get my vinyl and the old technics deck out of the loft.

There's a very nice phono board installed in the Creek ;)

Joking aside, you should - even if just for the nostalgia!

Saul too much
14-10-2011, 21:54
I wasnt joking really Alex.There's something special about the whole vinyl thing for me.Digital solutions are comparitively soulless.I'm tempted to pick up some of my all time favourite albums on vinyl and pick up a planar 3 or thorens TD60 or some such if the technics isnt anything special.Having decent sized artwork and a tangible visible thing magically producing music out of plastic grooves is very appealing.Funnily enough my kids have been keen on the idea for a while too.
I need to wise up on the digital source side of things too though.I hadnt even heard of Beresford before today.

Saul too much
14-10-2011, 22:00
Two pairs of Tangent RS2's here, quite nice speakers, they have a nice bass for a smallish speaker. The T27 can reveal any slight hardness in an amp. Not that efficient, and will not take a lot of power, so not for disco use!

Some might say that the RS2 sounds like an LS3/5a with bass.

Spendorman,you're the fella with the extraordinary speaker collection aren't you? I think it is a case of getting the source and amp right.Bass response is a bit lumpy with the rotel amp.The creek and Myryad amps I'm trialling are 60wpc.The rotel was 30wpc but I doubt I'd ever get past midday on the volume control in my living room.Have you found yourself missing some mids with the Rs2s? Most things they do seem to do very well.

DSJR
14-10-2011, 22:42
PLEASE don't EVER equate volume control position with power output. the control is just a level matcher and many amps I've tried tend to give full output with a CD source at 10 to 11 o'clock on the volume control. Oh alright, I know, you can't make generalisations, but most of the general commercial amps I've used and sold tend to do this - the MI-120 certainly does from memory, the Creek has a multi-turn volume control with a digital display I think..

Saul too much
14-10-2011, 23:25
To be honest dave I dont think ive ever got beyond midday on an amp because I tend to think it will damage speakers and sound crap.Just shy of halfway sounds about as far as I'm happy pushing the rotel with the Tangents and this is using old preremaster madness discs with sane mastering levels. I think I subconsciously assume halfway is about as far as any amp should be driven which begs the question why not attenuate in a manner where the available maximum is actually the maximum without distortion into 8 ohms.An oversimplification I'm sure.
I've had a knack of owning easily damaged speakers in the past,780s had temperamental drivers as did the high sensitivity set I've had for a while so I am reasonably cautious.

spendorman
15-10-2011, 07:50
Spendorman,you're the fella with the extraordinary speaker collection aren't you? I think it is a case of getting the source and amp right.Bass response is a bit lumpy with the rotel amp.The creek and Myryad amps I'm trialling are 60wpc.The rotel was 30wpc but I doubt I'd ever get past midday on the volume control in my living room.Have you found yourself missing some mids with the Rs2s? Most things they do seem to do very well.


Yes, a large collection of old speakers, just added a pair of Tannoy HPD315's.

And yes, there does seem to be a slight dip in the mid frequency of the RS2, similar to some other speakers at the time.

It might be worth checking the foam damping material inside the RS2 cabinets, not many screws to remove the front baffle. On one pair of mine the foam had almost completely disintegrated. If yours are like this, best to replace it. That would affect the bass, and mid.

Also, the reversible electrolytic capacitors in the crossover are well past their best by now. Renew them.

DSJR
15-10-2011, 09:04
All Tangents of this period had a slightly "doctored" response. We thoight it clever at the time, since the slight mid suckout was right where typical "box" colourations could be and the crossover dip removed harshness here. The T27 tweeter wiry, sparkle wasn't an issue with vinyl sources of the period, so not really an issue. The RS4 took it further and the deep-tuned port added a bottom octave to the proceedings. Utterly charming in a "loudness switch" sense, but not for loud rock freaks. Give them some acoustic, choral and orchestral works set in a huge space and the atmosphere and reverb reproduction was incredible..

Once the bubble burst and the first re-financing occured, I remember John Greenbank bringing round some modified ones, with a much brighter and more immediate balance. i found that the unlined boxes then became audible and the hardness in the upper-mid and crossover region were rather unpleasant at the time. Since KJ was a huge buyer of tangent speakers at the time, we specified the original spec and bought in large numbers to justify this for around six months. By this time (very late 80's), the market was starting to move on and tangent in their original form folded soon after. John Greenbank went back to teaching I understand...

Be careful with the RS2's though. The main driver was the Audax "version" of the KEF B200 (which was used in the TM3 and TM1 models). The bass unit is long discontinued (and I don't believe it features in the revitalised new-old Audax range) and my friends Rs4's suffer from weak/failing adhesives, causing a nasty resonance on soprano voice which wasn't there originally.

Are vintage Tangents worthy of all this faff? In my opinion, yes indeed. I had some TM1's for a while and "lent" them to a mate. As with a lot of stuff that's passed through my hands, they disappeared from view after a while, never to be seen again :(

hifi_dave
15-10-2011, 09:24
The early Tangents had the tweeter connected out of phase. This was a deliberate 'design feature' for some reason. I took a couple of pairs to the GEC anechoic chamber to measure and they had a huge suckout at the crossover point.

This would explain any lack of sparkle and prescence.

spendorman
15-10-2011, 09:45
The early Tangents had the tweeter connected out of phase. This was a deliberate 'design feature' for some reason. I took a couple of pairs to the GEC anechoic chamber to measure and they had a huge suckout at the crossover point.

This would explain any lack of sparkle and prescence.

Many speakers have the tweeter connected electrically out of phase, including models by B&W and Spendor.

Saul too much
15-10-2011, 09:53
I will check them over Spendorman although they do seem generally in decent nick.The only higher end resonance I noted was on a duet from the whicker man,two female soprano singers . I assumed it was room or recording related but I'll check it over and I'll have a look at the state of the foam interiors.So far they've been on an old pair of atacama high mass single pillar stands but I may dig out some open framed epos ones and see if they suit better. Anyone remember what type of stands these were recommended to be used with?
A further question is that old one of damping/coupling/decoupling which seemingly has many answers all of which are correct and wrong!.The stands are on top of laminate over flooring grade mdf on beams with a gap to concrete.Any suggestions? Spikes and coins? or foam damping.
At present blue tac at speaker corners is as far as I've got!

spendorman
15-10-2011, 10:20
I will check them over Spendorman although they do seem generally in decent nick.The only higher end resonance I noted was on a duet from the whicker man,two female soprano singers . I assumed it was room or recording related but I'll check it over and I'll have a look at the state of the foam interiors.So far they've been on an old pair of atacama high mass single pillar stands but I may dig out some open framed epos ones and see if they suit better. Anyone remember what type of stands these were recommended to be used with?
A further question is that old one of damping/coupling/decoupling which seemingly has many answers all of which are correct and wrong!.The stands are on top of laminate over flooring grade mdf on beams with a gap to concrete.Any suggestions? Spikes and coins? or foam damping.
At present blue tac at speaker corners is as far as I've got!

Both my pairs drive unit wise and external cabinet condition are nearly mint. However, the foam inside one pair had almost completely rotted away to powder. I used a suction cleaner to remove it.

On positioning, all I will say is that tweeters should be near ear level, and just try them in different positions in the room. Do check that foam out first.

Alex_UK
15-10-2011, 10:22
Steve - the Creek is 85 wpc. As Dave says, there is a multi-turn volume control, with a digital display that goes up to 80. The first 20 (from memory) are half-decibel increases, to allow you to fine tune low level listening (something I will miss very much, I think, as I always knew that 15 was about right for not waking up the family late at night!) I never went beyond 50 as far as I remember.

DSJR
15-10-2011, 11:06
I think what Dave W may have wished to say is that the tweeters were wired opposite phase to what they should have been. The original RS6 was a total disaster, both sonically and measurements too. Later exampled tamed the issues (tweeter phasing was one of these) but the TM and RS2 and 4 were rather better. The RS6 all but disappeared very shortly after I remember.

I think (without checking) the 'Choice interview is posted here. The "W" shaped response isn't too severe - I've seen Pro-Ac's measure FAR worse, all in the aims of creating an artificially deep soundfield.

Saul too much
16-10-2011, 12:07
Should be able to give them a go with the creek tomorrow. Good news ,I found the TT I bought for a tenner a few years back.It's a technics sl 1700,looks like original arm and has an ortofon vms 20e cartridge in it.Needs a clean up and the counter balance weight appears to be missing so at present it is only good for skating across my ex wifes old vinyl(just kidding!)

Saul too much
16-10-2011, 12:51
Can you get replacement counterbalances? I noticed one for an sl1200,would that fit? Sorry for all the questions but I havent really used vinyl since an old thorens deck I bought new and didnt need to do much setting up

Saul too much
16-10-2011, 20:41
Found the counterbalance and got the deck set up and running.Shame I lent my vinyl to people with bad needles. I'd forgotten about that!

Alex_UK
16-10-2011, 21:38
Well done Steve - glad you found the weight as I expect finding a spare would be a time consuming challenge... I have a similar SL-150 with a SL-1500 Arm (so basically a SL-1500) and they are very good decks for the money. You don't have the options of the tweaks of the 1200/1210 which will avoid temptation! Number 1 is to make sure you always remove the dust cover when playing records - number 2 I would suggest is some better feet.

I personally didn't think changing the mat to a Herbies made a great deal of difference on mine, but could be worth a try. If the stylus on the Ortofon is of unknown age and mileage then might be worth upgrading the cartridge - I don't know the vms 20e at all, so no idea how much it could be improved upon these days without spending a fortune - no doubt others will have an idea (DSJR? ;))

Enjoy the vinyl resurgence. :)

DSJR
17-10-2011, 06:57
A Herbies mat AND a cork one one top of it works PERFECTLY for me, the former adding damping to the unlined platter (doesn't ring at all with it in situ) and the cork mat suppporting the record better - IMO. Lovely sounds from mine and the Lab 80 is taking a well earned sabatical....

Saul too much
17-10-2011, 19:34
The creek arrived safe and sound,and we're all gettin g on very well.The phono section certainly seems impressive and its light years ahead of that old rotel especially when theres a lot going on and a bit of a crescendo.To be honest I can feel myself being drawn towards vinyl not so much for the warmth but more the depth and balance.I was a little surprised to be honest.
The head is a good alrounder.I found the appropriate pressure 1.5g online and its sounding pretty sweet.The mark 2 version is still available for around 100 but I think it's in decent nick.It's a 70s/80s cart but its certainly had no use for the last decade and probably not much before that.Great fun setting up the deck,adjusting weights and tuning the table with the strobe.Feels a bit like joining the masons!
The only cloud is still some excessive bass resonance on certain tracks.Has improved a bit with positioning and putting speakers on open frames but still takes over at times.Pulled speakers out from back wall but may still be playing it.Only a partition job but I'm short on alternatives beyond buying a new house.Perhaps I could do something about the ceiling corners and maybe putting stands on spikes and cups to get them off the laminate floor may help?

Saul too much
17-10-2011, 20:08
A Herbies mat AND a cork one one top of it works PERFECTLY for me, the former adding damping to the unlined platter (doesn't ring at all with it in situ) and the cork mat suppporting the record better - IMO. Lovely sounds from mine and the Lab 80 is taking a well earned sabatical....

Herbie's way expesnsive mats ? Interesting range of cork mats from a tenner to 24 on flea bay. As upgrades go I guess not mad prices .
Alex no worries re dust cover.Havent found it yet! As for feet is there some brand or type I should be looking for. I think your TT is pretty similar to mine. Both poor man's 1200s.This is a mark one without the quartz thingummy.I know it's a heathens question but how much do deck and arm influence sound(ie why are LS12s so pricey.Surely they just need to be consistent speeds and correctly balanced.As a novice I'd assume the cart has more influence and surely direct drive would be better than belt drives cos there's less mechanical plau available?

Saul too much
17-10-2011, 20:10
Oh and what's the best way to get rid of the snap crackle and pop? I saw a bath type device for around 20 quid.Surely distilled water and immersion plus a little brushing is the way to go?

Alex_UK
17-10-2011, 21:24
The creek arrived safe and sound,and we're all gettin g on very well.The phono section certainly seems impressive and its light years ahead of that old rotel especially when theres a lot going on and a bit of a crescendo.

Glad to here all of that, Steve (especially the "safe & sound" bit!) To be honest, the phono "module" is a bit of a bargain, IMO - not a surprise really I guess, when just the "gubbins" (without any casework or PSU) costs around seventy quid, all the money has gone into the electronics.

Alex_UK
17-10-2011, 21:30
I'm not 100% sure if the isonoe feet fit the SL-1700 - but to be honest, probably a bit of overkill for the cost. I used Sorbothane foculpods and was pleased with the results (eBay search (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=foculpods&_sacat=See-All-Categories)) but I believe DSJR had some success with Morrison's coasters on the "lip" surrounding the foot hole? (Help, Dave!)

DSJR
17-10-2011, 21:31
A standard SL1700 has a very "dark" tone to it and this should be borne in mind when siting, tuning or cartridge matching...

Ortofon VMS20e? Not perfect for the SL1700 but it'll do at 1.25g and bias set to under 1. the arm prefers 1.5 to 2g trackers (for accurate bias correction) and a Dynavector 10XV is ideal for this arm if you can afford one. The later light-weight techie shell may suit the VMS better. A CAP210 (still available on ebay sometimes) should tame the sting on VMS models, but this may just emphasise the plump bass these have. A mat change will definitely help but a cork one on its own won't damp the platter enough I think, hence the Herbies plus cork.

Isonoes? nah, not on this one - the 1600, 1700 and 1800 in mk1 form have a spring-suspended lower "tray" upon which is mounted the motor/platter and tonearm. A granite type chopping board the right size sitting on spikes, sorbothane or even isonoes may help hugely.

If you can get an Ortofon M20FL Super at a good price (well under a ton), then this should be brilliant with the SL1700 and I doubt it's far away from a top 2m model either. tracks at 1.5 to 1.7g - perfect for these massy Techie tonearms - a VMS30 with similar stylus profile sounds a bit stodgy in comparison, in my SL1500 in any case. The 500mk2 series Ortofons (now "Vinyl Master" series?) will also be good.

I sold many SL1700's and know it really well. Make sure the suspension is working, if a little creaky by Linn and Thorens standards. These old Jap direct drives are VERY sensitive to where they're placed.

Good luck...

Saul too much
17-10-2011, 21:59
Thanks for that dave.I tried adjusting the weight /bias(anti skate?) but any lighter than 1.5 g and it's not getting into the grooves properly. At present it's on anisolates(well spike based) glass tiered tower between the speakers.he suspension appears to be oK but i intend running thru the service manual properly when I have time. You reckon additional spikes on a granite board(dense heavy wood ok?) Unfortunately the only place it can go is between the speakerson top of the stand. I guess if I pick up spikes and cups forthe speaker stands it should reduce some resonance and take some vibrations out of the flooring

Saul too much
17-10-2011, 23:06
Hm,that cartridge is 105 unless you know a seller with a better price Dave.Reckon by the time I get the cart do a baseand put platter covers on I'll have spent about 160 which is roughly what a planar 3 with a good arm and cart seems to go for.Is it worth the exoense on the 1700 or are you better off with a planar ?

DSJR
18-10-2011, 07:57
You have the SL1700 - it's got auto return FFS and for me that's priceless :ner:

These arms are quite capable of tracking a Shure v15 III at 1g (done it!) but the bias correction is all over the shop at this downforce - none at beginning of the disc and too much at the end. Get up to 1.5g and more and everything falls into place and in the right proportion I find.. make sure the auto trip linkage is free at side end (it should be on these) and that the cueing platform doesn't foul the arm when playing.

For a giggle, these arms are fine for the likes of Goldring G800's (:)), the 10** series should sound good too and less "one-note" than they can in other arms, the Denon 110/160 is great here and with the current lightweight shell, the AT120E, 440MLa will also be fine.

Hope this helps..

MartinT
18-10-2011, 09:08
A heavier tracking weight will also reduce the effect of surface noise, although this is no substitute for clean records.

Saul too much
18-10-2011, 22:23
Yes I was looking at some of the options.Machines are expensive.I'm coming to the conclusion that the manual jobby where you essentially give the disc a bath seems a good option so long as you dont use their cleaning solution. Knosti anti stat I think it was called.Any opinions?

Saul too much
18-10-2011, 22:33
Yes, a large collection of old speakers, just added a pair of Tannoy HPD315's.

And yes, there does seem to be a slight dip in the mid frequency of the RS2, similar to some other speakers at the time.

It might be worth checking the foam damping material inside the RS2 cabinets, not many screws to remove the front baffle. On one pair of mine the foam had almost completely disintegrated. If yours are like this, best to replace it. That would affect the bass, and mid.

Also, the reversible electrolytic capacitors in the crossover are well past their best by now. Renew them.

Checked the foam,good as new,they seem to prefer open frame stands.The bass balance is improving,I put a little thin sponge where the spikes should be on the stands and secured the speakers with some fresh blue tac.Still overdoes the bass on certain tracks but overall the balance is getting better.They really can disappear as a source especially when you get them about 7/8 fet apart.The recessed mid seems less troublesome with the creek amp and the smoothness of the treble makes the NAD cdp favourite for use with the creek.
You could say I'm learning a lot about synergy and placement!The Myryad should arrive tomorrow but so do my kids which limits listening opportunities a little

Saul too much
21-10-2011, 08:32
Good call on the myryad Dave. I'm liking this a lot. Only problem is there's no phono stage.Wonder if I can put the phono stage from the Creek in place of the aux input of the myryad.

DSJR
21-10-2011, 11:51
Phone Myriad and ask them... The other thing may be to find the survivng independant dealers that sold them and see of there may be a phono stage in a box somewhere - you never know ;)

Saul too much
21-10-2011, 21:16
I've mailed them Dave but the office wont be open till monday.I assume its a decent module if I can track one down.Alex's creek is certainly a nice amp and the phono stage sounds good but somehow the Myryad sounds right with the kind of music I've put through it.Hard to define quite what that is.Seems to be detailed without pulling your ear toward the detail all the time if that makes sense.Seems to be an excellent alrounder for all types of music.

DSJR
22-10-2011, 09:53
Ask at the HiFi Trading Station in Peterborough as they took all of Listen Inn's stock several years ago. I can't remember if we had a phono module in a drawer somewhere - loads of odds and sods in filing cabinets...

Good luck with Myryad. Even if they don't have complete boards, they may have blanks that you could make up with components possibly, although this is a huge long shot - can't believe this amp came out on 1995 or so, and how long ago that is now - I was married in 1996 and it seems a lifetime ago now ;)

Saul too much
22-10-2011, 11:54
The shop in Peterborough appears to have become TJ West One.I tried phoning today but they only communicate on week days apparently. Sevenoaks havent stocked myryad for a long time even though they're listed on the myryad site as the core sales outlet.I'll just have to wait and see I guess.I should tke the time to listen to thhe creek more fully aswell.My son reckons its rockier so he likes it but I dont think my core listening is going to e particularly rocky.
Granite chopping boards arent exceptionally easy to find either.I'm not sure what the best approach is for the turntable. I could keep it on the stand and put granite and sorbothone under it though I'm wary of the plate glass stand struggling with the weight.I guess it's a midfi stand. It's medium weight and has spikes.The floor is fairly solid.An alternative would be to mount a shelf on the back wall but its only a plasterboard partition and I think it vibrates a fair bit. Any opinions? Unfortunately given the nature of the room and furnishings it's not really feasible to place things against a solid wall.

DSJR
22-10-2011, 13:46
The shop in Peterborough appears to have become TJ West One.

Curiouser and curiouser... :scratch:

Saul too much
23-10-2011, 08:52
Came home to find the myryad dead last night having been left on standby. Turns out the 6 amp fuse had blown at the power cord input.Having had one of these yourself Dave is this an occasional occurance or does it imply trouble ahead? I found a 5 amp fuse to replace it and will get some 6 amp ones asap. Am I right in thinking the amp will run safely with the 5 amp fuse in the short term as it just means it's more likely to blow than the 6 amp one should there be a surge of some sort?

I won't use the amp until one of you more knowledgeable chaps has confirmed it's ok so if anyone can confirm it's safe please answer as soon as you can.
thanks

hifi_dave
23-10-2011, 10:06
It should run OK with the 5 amp fuse, so long as it is the same type as you removed - fast or timed etc. If it doesn't hold, it won't do any harm when it blows and if there is a fault, it will blow anyway.

DSJR
23-10-2011, 10:30
When I worked in the home counties, we left everything on overnight and very rarely had a failure - I got to hear how a Naim 250 could deterioate after six months of running 24/7 from new, getting better and then going "off" as the circuit drifted away from nominal. In fact the last failure I remember was a brand new Alpha 8 CD player in Northampton, which was left on repeat in the dem room to run-in the transport etc. We arrived the next morning to find all manner of horrid noises emanating from it.. Arcam replaced it FOC of course...

Saul too much
23-10-2011, 13:30
Thanks for the swift reply dave. The fuse I found was the spare from the creek amp so it should be fit for purpose at least in the short term. There wasnt a spare in the myryad which suggests it's blown before and of course there's no guarantee the one that blew is the correct spec if the owner has picked it up themselves.It reads BUSS GMA 1.6A 250V. The creek fuse is T.5 A and the spec on the back of the myryad states T1.6A. I assume T means timed so I wonder if the one I removed isnt timed.Anyway it seems to work and I'll pick up some spares tomorrow.

Saul too much
23-10-2011, 13:39
Just checked on tinterweb.The blown fuse is fast acting whereas the specified fuse is slow blow,hence the T stated on the spec on the back of the amp. The creek fuse being a slow blow is nearer to the right type than the one removed and the previous owner has mistakenly put in a fast glass fuse.Hopefully that's all there is too it.The MYryad manual states return for service if 2nd fuse blows.Lets hope it doesnt come to that!

MartinT
23-10-2011, 14:32
Fuses have an 'F' for fast blow and 'T' for slow-blow in their rating. If they have a little coiled spring in them they are anti-surge.

Saul too much
24-10-2011, 09:48
Thanks again, working fine with the temporary fuse.Was a bit heart in the mouth coming back from the pub and finding the amp apparently dead.
I've ordered a Knosti cleaning machine to degrime my vinyl.Sounds like the fluid provided is rubbish though so will mix my own.Also ordered some vinyl covers.There is a milty roller available for dry cleaning before playing.Has anyone tried these? Would it be better than a carbon brush.I'd value any useful suggestions from experienced vinyl users.As always the web is choc full of contrary opinions.

hifi_dave
24-10-2011, 18:50
Never liked the Milty and other similar rollers. I feel that they collect dust and grit, which is then wiped over the record.

I'd rather use a carbon fibre brush or, better still, the Discwasher type with a velvet pad. Best of all IMO, is the vintage Watts Disc Preener.

Saul too much
25-10-2011, 08:06
Thanks Dave,I'll pick one of those up.
I'm still struggling with the acoustics of the room at the moment.In particular there's a run of 3 bass notes that really over power things on a few tracks.I think it's aggravated by the rear wall being partition although the speakers are a good 75cm out from it and the bare walls.Ideally I dont want to be building bass traps but it may come to that.At the moment I'm trying to resolve it by looking at the stands and their link to the floor which is laminate.I have heavy single pillar atacamas and Epos ES11 type open frames.The problem is further compounded by me needing to slide the speakers out into listening positions due to one being close to a doorway.If I dont do this the speakers are too close together and the stereo image is cramped.
If I can't get it right then I may have to look for a different set of speakers with less bass.Not really a good scenario given how many things these speakers do well.Any suggestions would be welcome.

Saul too much
25-10-2011, 21:49
Turns out ensuring the stands are more rigid/stable,lower volume and nearer field listening makes a big difference.

Saul too much
26-10-2011, 09:32
Massive thanks to all of you chaps on here. I'm beginning to get the most out of these speakers now.I have a rega fono mini and AT120E cartridge on their way.I was getting a real wide deep soundstage and good solid balanced bass from the set up last night.A carpet and one soundtrap should tame the worst elements created in the room.There is still a little treble hardness in the system.The Myryad seems to be a good allrounder.With this set up it does everything pretty well although I can see why tubes are often used with this type of speaker.
I'm curious though,I probably already know the answer to this but if you really want the most from all forms of music is it possible to do this without ending up with two systems.It strikes me that these speakers with a good tube amp would be incredible for everything on the classical/jazz acoustic side of things but for more driving music forms you'd need a more flat earth type of rig.Believe me I'm not complaining ! This is certainly the best hifi I've had to date in terms of an all rounder set up but when you get to higher end listening is there no such thing as a one system solution?
At present I'll try looking at finding two different sources to try to achieve something close to nirvana.I've already found from listening to different cdps that they do have quite different strengths and weaknesses.It may even be that my old PS1 will provide the best source for the softer side of things and I have a Rotel 855 which I will modify which I'm hoping may solve the rockier side. At present the CambridgeCD4SE works best for this but the treble does get fatiguing.It may be worth trying a used Marantz cd63(the one invariably raved about as a classic)
An alternative would be to look into the recent spate of well priced DACs.Any suggestions would be welcome though I realise the likelhood of finding one source that perfects everything is unlikely.
Thanks again for helping me get this far.

DSJR
26-10-2011, 09:54
Just a quickie..

Speakers and their drive units have moved forward in the last thirty years and these days, the Rs2 would be a little too "characterful" to be truly successful. My take is that speakers like B&W 805's set high rather than low, Jamo Concert 8's and similar 20L speakers (ATC 20's but they need shedloads of power!) would take the RS2 concept forward I reckon, but even used they cost dearly......

Enjoy the RS2's in the mid to nearfield as the endearing classics they are. The RS4 allowed the bass to "breathe" a bit more, but the heavy porting and low power handling could be an issue possibly.

Alex Nikitin (ANT Audio) had summat to do with the phono stage design in the Creek and suggested an FET upgrade to Alex I believe. i don't know if he had anything to do with the rest of the amp, but instead of bodging around with an old but good Rotel, I'd be inclined to see if the Creek could be free'd off a bit and opened up in sonics.

Saul too much
26-10-2011, 11:03
Yes lovely looking speakers but at around a grand for a set I think my 100 quid tangents will be staying:) I'm coming round to the idea that one system may not solve all needs.One possibility is to pick up some Epos 12.2s and try them with the creek for rock music,they'd be happy on the opon frame stands I'm using and as they are voiced for creek could be a good solution at around 200 used.

Macca
26-10-2011, 12:14
A valve pre-amp with a solid state power amp can sometimes give the best of both worlds - something to consider going forward perhaps?

DSJR
26-10-2011, 18:18
The best classic Epos' seem to be thge ES14's, which, if used carefully, are so capable. A far better bet than the current ones, which are too "safe" to be a serious threat IMO. Es11's aren't bad either, but I found them a touch "dull" for me ;)

Saul too much
27-10-2011, 09:35
I had ES11s before and they mated well with the exposure xv I had. Sold that kit when I tried valves but I chose poorly and have since regretted the switch.The ES11s I felt were solid and not overly bright,sound good with rock and jazz.ES11s seem to be goiing for silly prices at the moment. Mine were around 100 but they seem to be going for around 400 now.The 14s may be big for the room and possibly too big for my current stands. Which speakers did you pair up with the myryad Dave when you had it?I should really settle and enjoy what I've got but if I could pick up something around 100-200 that could hook up with the myryad for rock and more beaty stuff it may be worth one last outlay.The tangent do depth and all that round earth stuff really well but a more forward sounding faster speaker may work better for rockier styles.

Saul too much
01-12-2011, 23:31
Just an update and a thank for all the helpful advice.Having got the speakers positioned right and found what seems to be an ideal cdp(Kenwood 8020) I am now a very happy bunny and can't see me wanting to change anything until something breaks(which seems unlikely).
The offshoot of my search for hifi has led to my son having a very enjoyable rig of a Cambridge cd4se/Rotel 820/MS20i pearls which play his current marshall amp driven tunes very nicely.
Thanks again
Steve