Phono Essentials [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

WOStantonCS100

29-09-2011, 20:14

I finally broke down and purchased a Shure stylus force gauge and a ProTractor Cartridge Alignment Tool with Zero Level from LPGear.com after 30+ years of engaging in this vinyl thing. As far as the stylus gauge, I never felt I needed it before; all previous tonearms have the (sometimes accurate) dial guide. The Trans-Fi T3 Pro is a more precise animal and begs a more precise method of gauging VTF. I still didn't want to spend a ton of money on a VTF gauge so I got the Shure. The ProTractor is probably not necessary is dialing in the T3 almost makes cartridge alignment a no brainer; but, I do still have TT's with pivoted arms. It somehow escaped me that the Zero level was included. It'll make me look all official when I set it atop the TT. ;)

What I'm really curious about is to see how close I got by eyeballing VTF. We'll see.

There should be "a point" to a thread, right? Or, at least a question posed... Well, I don't know what the point is :lol: ;but, a question might be, "Anybody else take as long as me to acquire the "phono essentials?"

WOStantonCS100

08-10-2011, 00:54

Turns out I was a little less than .5 grams away from where I wanted to be (VTF); but, still well within the specified range by just eyeballing the deflection of the cantilever when set down on the reflective side of a CD. Pretty cool.

Cartridge alignment was less than 1 mm off tracking a perfect diameter, essentially inconsequential. What's really interesting is taking that same alignment tool to one of my tables with a pivoted arm. :eek: I don't think I will ever use anything other than a spherical stylus on a pivoted arm again.

YNWaN

08-10-2011, 08:01

I don't know what cartridge you are using, but in the world of low output MC's I would say that a change of 0.5g of tracking force is quite a significant amount. Try adjusting the tracking force a tiny amount either side of this setting and note what differences you hear.

I'm afraid I don't understand your last comment regarding spherical styli. A spherical stylus has pretty obvious tracking and tracing limitations, I wouldn't personally choose to use one.

DSJR

08-10-2011, 08:11

Sorry to put a dampener on things, but I never found my Shure gauge that accurate either and worse than the dials on many Japanese sourced tonearms (MUCH worse than an Ittok for example).

A bit fiddly, but the little "Ortofon" balance is consistent and my favourite cheap one (I must get one at some point) is the old plastic-moulded Acoustic Research balance supplied with the old XA turntable and now marketed by Rec-O-Kut -

http://www.esotericsound.com/AccessPhotos/ROKbalMANUAL.pdf

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/9e96dd87.jpg

YNWaN

08-10-2011, 10:11

The Ortofon is also my favourite.

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/resources/products/image1/ortofontforce.jpg

shane

08-10-2011, 10:44

I always fancied the Transcriptors one; a bit fiddly, but very accurate and dead cool. Just seen what they go for on ebay, so maybe I'll do without...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRANSCRIPTOR-STYLUS-SCALES-GOOD-WORKING-ORDER-/250858391256

MartinT

08-10-2011, 11:00

The Ortofon one is nice although I now use a Chinese digital one that is spot-on (it comes with a calibration weight that you can check against other scales).

You really should fine tune VTF by ear anyway. My rule of thumb is to take a point just below the max in the tracking force range stated by the manufacturer as a starting point.

prestonchipfryer

08-10-2011, 11:49

Used to have a Shure gauge but found it was not accurate enough. Now I use a Technics SH-50P1, bought on the bay, which is much better. Also have a digital gauge bought from the bay for around £25 which is even more accurate.

John

:)

YNWaN

08-10-2011, 12:39

hifi_dave

08-10-2011, 14:54

I've got a couple of the Transcriptor/Michell scales and agree that they are extremely fiddly to use. Nice to see them going up in value though.

My favourite is the Garrard SFG3, which is perfectly accurate and extremely easy to use. I've been using the same one since the 60's.

WOStantonCS100

08-10-2011, 17:46

:( Consider my bubble burst. Now, I'm going to have to spend a lot more quid on a digital scale. I was trying to avoid spending more money than was really necessary. How off is the Shure gauge typically??

The cart in question (and used most often) is a MM. The difference in sound was slight; nothing life changing.

hifi_dave

08-10-2011, 19:29

There is a very similar thread to this, earlier this week.

You don't need to splash out on a digital scale as the Garrad SFG3 is every bit as accurate but a lot less expensive and dead easy to use.

I have 20 or more different gauges including a couple of the Transcriptor/Michell balance, the Shure, Ortofon, Teac and a Technics digital but the one I always use is the cheapo Garrard. They appear regularly on E-Bay and often sell for £10-20.

DSJR

08-10-2011, 19:34

The Shure isn't dire by any means and there's no reason to burst a bubble over it - mine was 5% on one scale and 10% on the other, using a Transcriptors/Michell balance as reference (these were calibrated to within VERY tight tolerances. I would suggest however, that the scales on most of the better arms "these days" are accurate enough to 5% or better...

My Transcriptors scales is in a box somewhere, althoug hI did admire it in recent months. I also have a Garrard scale, but mine needs calibrating every use. My recommendation of the old AR/Rek-o-Kut one are sound, as the old ones I tried were utterly accurate (precision plastic mouldings) and gave the same results every time, as does the little ortofon one.

Reid Malenfant

08-10-2011, 19:40

Me, i'd go for one of these ;) Is it accurate enough? :eyebrows: You can't argue at the price after all...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Electronic-Digital-Balance-Weight-Scale-0-1-100g-/320755013497?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_JewelleryBoxe s_Supplies_CA&hash=item4aae7d1779

Alex_UK

08-10-2011, 21:57

Almost the same as I use, Mark - I use a 2p piece to check accuracy once in a while (should weigh 7.12g - it always has) but otherwise, these "jewellery" scales are as good as the "proper" hifi ones, IMO. Some concern expressed previously that they may use magnetism in some way, which you wouldn't really want to stick under your cartridge - easy test (I believe suggested by Dave K a couple of years ago) is to stick a fridge magnet on it and see - the one I bought must be entirely aluminium/plastic as no attraction at all.

Reid Malenfant

08-10-2011, 22:01

They use an radio frequency field that alters due to the mass that is applied to them, much like a tuning capacitor... From the ones i have taken a look inside of at any rate ;)

Magnetism will not affect them as the mech is stainless steel :)

WOStantonCS100

09-10-2011, 04:25

A spherical stylus has pretty obvious tracking and tracing limitations, I wouldn't personally choose to use one.

Perhaps.

I hear far less distortion and worry much less about accelerated groove wear (both of which I observed using line contact/microline styli on 9" arms) using spherical styli on 9" pivoted arms. All I can say is that my line contact/microline styli do not come close to their full potential if not used in a linear tracking arm. They absolutely sing in these arms. Whereas, the spherical styli are much more forgiving of misalignment, regardless of application. I can handle a slight glossing over of detail more than I can obvious distortion. I would imagine the line contact might sound ok in a 12" arm. Seems like a geometry thing to me. If the point of a line contact/microline styli is to closely match the cutter, it would make sense that they would perform best tracing the groove the way the cutter cut it. Just my experiences and observations. YMMV.

MartinT

09-10-2011, 05:53

WOStantonCS100

09-10-2011, 06:34

I can't say I've used a line contact stylus in recent cartridges, Biff, but I have no problems at all with elliptical stylii in the Dynavector arm. Its tracking is very secure and I never hear even end of side distortion.

:lol: Martin, you've got a Dynavector!! :respect: That automatically excludes you from the conversation. ;) It would be a crime to passively dismiss it as "a pivoted arm". The arc may be the same; but.............................

I can always tell I'm "at the inner grooves" with an elliptical stylus; but, it's no where near as severe as with the line contacts. I have line contacts sound bad all over the record and then just sublime once fitted to a linear tracking arm, even the motor driven Techy linear tracking decks, which aren't really true linear trackers... ...more like a tight wave.

shane

09-10-2011, 12:56

I have one of those Ebay electronic scales and although the weighing surface is stainless, there are components underneath that will attract the magnet of a MC cartridge, so ruining the measurement. I use a little plastic bottle-top on top of the scale to rest the stylus on so that it's far enough above the scales not to be attracted.

Audioman

09-10-2011, 14:24

:lol: Martin, you've got a Dynavector!! :respect: That automatically excludes you from the conversation. ;) It would be a crime to passively dismiss it as "a pivoted arm". The arc may be the same; but.............................

I can always tell I'm "at the inner grooves" with an elliptical stylus; but, it's no where near as severe as with the line contacts. I have line contacts sound bad all over the record and then just sublime once fitted to a linear tracking arm, even the motor driven Techy linear tracking decks, which aren't really true linear trackers... ...more like a tight wave.

My experience with line contacts is exactly the opposite. No IGD. Even kinder to distortion caused by previous mistracking or poor mastering. There are quite a few members on the Hoffman forum who swear by AT ML cartridges to eliminate IGD. Just get an alignment protractor and take care in proper set up. Conical stylii are dinasoars and haven't used one since mid 70's. The Denon probably is an exception because of it's small size and quality but if you want extended frequencies you need an eliptical or fine line.

DSJR

09-10-2011, 16:14

It's easily measurable too, not that many of any here take any notice of such things.... Decent line tips need proper setting up, but the added clarity and lower subjective distortion at hf at side end is very much appreciated, especially when one listens a lot to non vinyl sources :)

I have no issues at all with tangential tonearms, except for their appearance as a breed ;)

WOStantonCS100

09-10-2011, 18:15

My experience with line contacts is exactly the opposite. No IGD. Even kinder to distortion caused by previous mistracking or poor mastering. There are quite a few members on the Hoffman forum who swear by AT ML cartridges to eliminate IGD. Just get an alignment protractor and take care in proper set up. Conical stylii are dinasoars and haven't used one since mid 70's. The Denon probably is an exception because of it's small size and quality but if you want extended frequencies you need an eliptical or fine line.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say they are dinosaurs. ;) Some are far better than others (like the Denon you mentioned); but, the same can be said of any type of styli. I certainly agree that fine lines excel in the area of frequency extremes (raison d'etre, n'est ce pas) and as such remain my preference. However, the AT ML's were the ones I disliked the most (on 9" arms).

...Decent line tips need proper setting up...

Understatement, perhaps? ;) :) I have certainly found that to be true; though the rewards be many. Realistically, the best it can be aligned (on a 9" arm) is a compromise and quite far away from the ideal of tangency across the record from the start to the finish; major improvement in the SL-M3 and when used with the T3. On new vinyl or good condition vinyl, with eyes closed, I'd be hard pressed to tell you if the last song on the side was playing.

MartinT

09-10-2011, 18:26

Using Lofgren 'A' alignment and my arm's effective length of 241mm, there is only a maximum 1 degree tracking angle error at innermost and outmost grooves if the double null points are accurately set.

To be honest, you'd be lucky if your diamond stylus was that accurately set in the cartridge in the first place, not to mention getting cartridge alignment pricesely set in the headshell.

WOStantonCS100

09-10-2011, 21:39

If the diamond set is buggered... best toss it regardless of arm. :lol: I've had a few of those. They went in the bin. All the more reason to reign in as many variables as possible.

http://www.airtangent.net/images/17.gif

I don't own an Airtagnent anything; and, this illustration is probably not a good representation of the various protractors available; however, I don't know of any protractors that enable one to set up a pivoted arm to track the straight line of the cutter. That gap (error) between a straight line and an arc, now that I've had many hours to critically listen to the difference, is quite audibly apparent to my ears (9" vs linear). I don't have any hard set rules for what folks should use in their systems, that'd be silly. We all have our preferences/ideals. It's just that I can hear the difference; making it very hard for me to go back to a pivoted arm, especially considering my styli preference.

I hope to test out a 12" arm in the near future as my recent Frankentable project will accommodate one quite easily.

YNWaN

09-10-2011, 22:34

Linear tacking arms certainly solve some problems, but they are not without their own set of problems and compromises. Careful design can minimise the negative issues and accentuate the positive, but I've not seen anything yet that entirely resolves all problems (not that I have seen any pivoted arms that resolve all their problems either).