DAC advice

[macca63]

Hi all

Hoping for some advice on the best way to improve the sound of my digitally stored music.

Firstly. I play a lot of vinyl (and this will always be my preferred format!) but I have put much of it onto iTunes (I dread to think how many hours I've spent over the last few years doing this!) and, for convenience sake, plug my Macbook / iPhone 4 / iPad (has DJ app on it) into my hi-fi via the headphone socket straight into the AUX phono inputs on the back of the amp (Sony TA-FB940R - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/53)

I also have a lot of ripped CD's and a few downloaded tracks stored.

T'internet tells me I can expect a marked improvement in sound quality if I add a DAC to the mix, but I'm a complete novice here - guessing the unit just slots in between the source and the amp, improving the signal as it passes through?

Next questions are which DAC - and is there a loss in sound quality if it's wireless?

The Cambridge Audio DACMagic has a wireless option and is £200 at Richer Sounds - http://www.richersounds.com/product/cd-players-recorders-dacs-cassette-decks/cambridge-audio/dacmagic/camb-dacmagic-08-sil

Lastly, I also wanted to upgrade my CD player (Philips CDR796 CD Recorder) and if I have a DAC then guessing I could just get a decent transport deck?

Suggestions welcomed on all fronts!

TIA

Tony

[lurcher]

If you have a better DAC, you can just plug your existing CD player into that (assuming it has dig out) and use it as a transport.

If I was you I would get a Caiman

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/products.html

There are loads of other options, but the above will be simple, sounds good, and just work.

BTW Stanley, your "Buy It Now" links seem to be broken.

[worrasf]

The choice is seemingly huge but in actual fact IMHO it is actually limited if you are looking for maximum bang for your buck. Clearly I have not heard all available but from what I have heard I make the following comments.

Beresford Caiman with Gator board - USB/Optical/SPDIF (2) inputs, built in headphone amp - at the price this is very very hard to beat and can be further upgraded with an external PSU.

REGA DAC - USB/Optical/SPDIF inputs - stunning resolution and presence - superb on SPDIF/Optical inputs (CD etc)

Young DAC - USB/Optical/SPDIF - best DAC I have heard with USB input - superb

The above DAC are presented in increasing price tag order NOT necessarily in increasing "quality" - you pays your money and takes your choice but if you push me then if you are new to DACS (and even if you are not) then go for the Caiman+Gator - you will not be disappointed.

Now choice of CD player is a whole different ball park. Personally, I use a Cyrus CD XT se (transport only) and think it a truly wonderful piece of kit but others will have different recommendations.

Steve

[StanleyB]

If you have a better DAC, you can just plug your existing CD player into that (assuming it has dig out) and use it as a transport.

If I was you I would get a Caiman

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/products.html

There are loads of other options, but the above will be simple, sounds good, and just work.

BTW Stanley, your "Buy It Now" links seem to be broken.
The Home HIFI site is being revamped. Use www.beresford.me

The Caiman is shipped from London, so picking it up if you are in London would save you delivery cost and time as well.

[macca63]

Thanks for the info guys - much appreciated

[Ali Tait]

Depending on what you want to spend, Nick who posted on this thread can build you a valve output dac that sounds better than anything else I've heard so far.

[DSJR]

Just remember that the "DAC" bit is the easy and cheap bit (probably around a fiver or two for the chipset itself when bought in quantity). It's the rest of the stuff around it and the case which adds to the costs...

[Ali Tait]

Indeed.

[Reid Malenfant]

Next questions are which DAC - and is there a loss in sound quality if it's wireless?
I'd say yes, i would never use anything that is wireless as there is a very good chance of interference from other items working locally :(

Even my internet is wired, it's not difficult to lose a lock between sender & receiver :rolleyes:

As others have mentioned, if you don't do too much digital work there doesn't appear to be too much point in splashing out on a DAC. You won't do much better than the Beresford Caiman at the money. Having had the chance to listen to one it definately compares very favourably with DACs costing a good deal more ;)

[Ali Tait]

Can't argue with that.

[Welder]

Oh well, lets do this then :eyebrows:

Mindlessly follow the majority of advice above and your preferred choice of music playback will stay as dragging a vibrating needle around a groove pressed into a bit of vinyl.
However, you show some interest in digital sound reproduction but you got stuck at a point many get stuck at and that’s the idea that you need a CD player :doh:
I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are going to spend an awful lot of money (and I mean an awful lot) on a CD player a file/computer based source will piss all over any CD based system. It’s exactly the same digital info but without the spinning bits lasers and the usual crap inbuilt Dac

There are lots of good Dacs out there. The choosing can be made a bit easier by deciding a few basic things about how you want your digital audio system to develop.
If you insist on CD anything then you’re on your own mate and you may as well get whatever Dac the lads choose to flog you :ner:

But, if you’ve seen the light, or at least got an optical drive and want to rip, then the first thing you need to do is decide SPDIF or USB or even firewire.
Course, you’ve prolly noticed yer CD player doesn’t have a USB port and that explains why lots here have the Dacs they do :lol::eek:
But, you’re not doing that clunky silver disc hot laser spinny bit are you? You’ve got files man!
Oh mega choices. :)
Non Over Sampling (NOS) or an Up-sampling Dac. You need to hear both coz they do sound different.
Then you need to decide between asynchronous and adaptive mode data transfer. Sorry, but they can sound different too.
Now you should have some idea of the range of Dacs and converters that float your boat.
You will also understand why many of the contributors here didn’t get past the CD player and do a do it all Dac and think file audio stinks. You would think the same about record players if all you got to hear was yer dad’s Bush Stereogram.

Course, you’re bound to be concerned that the truly awesome sound you’re getting to hear through all these different Dacs fed by a computer is going to put you right off all that vinyl you’ve collected over the years. Don’t panic, pretty much all that music is available for download somewhere or on CD which you may or may not have noticed are going very cheap these days. (Well, not a lot of call for dinosaur food if there ain’t no dinosaurs) and the sad truth is yer LP’s ain’t worth shit unless you’re one of those weird collector types with a bad case of nostalgia

[Ali Tait]

Can't argue with that either! :lol:

[Marco]

Hi John,

No problem with anything else you've written, but this is patently untrue:


and the sad truth is yer LP’s ain’t worth shit unless you’re one of those weird collector types with a bad case of nostalgia

My record collection is worth £1000s of pounds, particularly the rare stuff I have. If I ever sold it, that's what I would get. File-based systems can indeed sound good (no arguments there) but the files themselves are worth shit, unlike the record collections belonging to those of us who value what vinyl is capable of on a top-notch T/T and system.

That's one of the main reasons why I have so far resisted adding a computer streaming source to my system: because I like to own a physical music collection which has both sentimental and monetary value. With files, you get neither. And I'm lucky that I'm one of the few people who own a CDP and DAC which truly does the old silver disc justice...! ;)

Marco.

[Welder]

Hmmm, okay Marco, there may indeed be a market for vinyl but it’s for collector’s mate, not primarily for people who just want to listen to the music.

This imo is one of the great things about file audio; so much of the music that was collectable and owned by people is now available in file format. Sure, you don’t get the pleasure of ownership of anything physical and you are absolutely correct that the medium "file" is worthless
However, i suggest it’s the music that interests those other than the collectors and the medium doesn’t really matter. Maybe I’m wrong here but don’t most buy records and CD’s because they want to be able to play the music and the medium is of little importance provided the quality is maintained?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Maybe I’m wrong here but don’t most buy records and CD’s because they want to be able to play the music and the medium is of little importance provided the quality is maintained?

You're wrong here.

[Welder]

You're wrong here.

Oh Rly?

Are you saying people buy music because of the medium?

[Marco]

Hi John,


Hmmm, okay Marco, there may indeed be a market for vinyl but it’s for collector’s mate, not primarily for people who just want to listen to the music.


Not just for collector's, mate, but also for music lovers. That's who small independent record shops cater mainly for. Did you read the thread Snapper posted in the Abstract Gallery, detailing our recent record shop tour in North Wales and Cheshire?

I can assure you that we weren't buying records to top up our pension funds, and neither do most of the other customers who frequent those establishments! ;)

The fun time and unique experiences we had doing that is what buying music is (should be) all about, and it could not be replicated by sitting at home on your backside alone downloading 'faceless' files on a bloody computer...


However, i suggest it’s the music that interests those other than the collectors and the medium doesn’t really matter.


I'm interested in both - the music, of course more so, but I do get an element of satisfaction from owning a first or early pressing of a rare album, which not only has musical merit, but also monetary value. It's nice to know that something you paid good money for today is, if kept in the same condition, unlikely to depreciate in value, and in fact could well increase in value!

You can't do that with files.


Maybe I’m wrong here but don’t most buy records and CD’s because they want to be able to play the music and the medium is of little importance provided the quality is maintained?

I think that's true to an extent, but I think you'll find that people who love vinyl are attached to it for many reasons other than it simply being a music carrier. Its tactility, sentimental value, and the whole ritual of playing records, not to mention its superior sound (to some), when done well, are major factors why many people love vinyl and consider their turntable as their primary audio source component (count me in!) :cool:

Marco.

[Welder]

Oh, don’t get me wrong Marco, show me a record collection and I’ll be there for hours pulling out various sleeves and admiring the artwork, something that despite fairly intensive efforts around the net I still find I’m missing bits of and yep a pixilated display just doesn’t hack it compared to a full print sleeve :(

But, I’m not interested in collecting anything more than the music and if my music storage preference leaves a bit to be desired with regard to tactile sensation it more than makes up for it in replay quality and accessibility both for replay and acquisition :)

Personally I can think of so many other things I would rather do than shop, even for music but I realize some people enjoy it. I cant count the number of times I’ve bought second hand vinyl at some shop or other only to find that despite the most careful examination when played there was imperfection in a the groove.
CD’s were/are better in this respect.

I’m not the slightest bit concerned with whether the music has any monetary worth and if it did I would want to be ripping the rare stuff and chucking it up on some download site for others to access and have use of for nothing. It wasn’t mine to start with.

The whole faceless nightmare of the computer age just doesn’t bother me mate. At my age my identity is well and truly established and I like to think I can put my face on the medium rather than worry that the medium will rob me of my humanity in some way.

So, back to the worthless records unless selling to a collector. I think I’m right and I’ve not read anything yet to make me want to reconsider.
I get the same music as the vinyl and CD collectors at a greatly reduced cost and my collecting opportunities are expanding while the other two common options are not.
Vinyl is going to get increasingly expensive and as the good copies get damaged the overall quality available is going to reduce. CD is more robust but it’s a dying format particularly with regard to innovations in replay equipment. Its as good as it gets now.

[Marco]

That's cool, mate - we just have different priorities :)

Please understand though that any used records I buy must be minty-mint and/or cleanable on my RCM. Very rarely am I unlucky enough to come home with records that sound like 'snap crackle and pop', after a thorough cleaning on the VPI. Furthermore, I will often ask for the records I'm intending on buying to be played on the shop system, so I can detect any irreparable groove damage. I'm MEGA fussy and so extremely selective!

And the fact is, any used records that I buy still retain an intrinsic value, and not just to collectors. If I returned all the vinyl I bought recently to the respective shops, I'd still get something back for it - it isn't "not worth shit", as you said. In fact, people's private sales of vinyl on AoS, of nothing particularly collectable, have always sold for decent money to music lovers here, not record collectors, so the assertion you made, I'm afraid, is wrong.

I hate shopping, and so will avoid it like the plague, but for music, I make an exception, especially when flicking through piles of old vinyl, not knowing what treasures you might find, and sharing that social experience with close and like-minded friends. Downloading files isn't anything like as fun or exciting!

It's that kind of tactile experience that makes me feel in control and like a human being, out in the fresh air and in touch with the real world, not in many ways divorced from it, sat inside the house clicking on a mouse. *That* is something which I value and treasure very much and wouldn't ever want to lose... It keeps me human, and most importantly, not reliant on bloody computers!

Hey, dude, we're all different... :cool:

Marco.

[Welder]

I must admit, there are some pretty horrendous aspects to the computer age but so far in my experience music replay hasn’t been one of them ;)

I’m with you on the better outside and doing stuff than inside in front of a monitor pushing a rat around a mat though. That’s one of the reasons I quit engineering and went and put up fences; the closest to you would be on the A5 I imagine and you know the weather is horizontal there :eek::lol:
Anyway Marco, sleep time for me. Laterez:)

[bobbasrah]

Turning back to the original question rather than rattle any PC (either way) cages, most of what Welder says is true in relation to file based music, albeit that it is hard to relate to the format in the same way as Marco enjoys. Having been raised on LP, flicking through a CD booklet just doesn't feel quite the same. On a PC the relationship is virtual, not physical. However...
First, I would be more concerned with the quality of conversion to lossless or wav rather than mp3 et al. Apple and iTunes do not suit my requirements as such.
There is plenty of choice of DAC otherwise ranging from DIY to big bucks, but like all things audio in the commercial world, once you get past a certain price/performance point, the law of dimishing returns applies. You can always upgrade the DAC, but the improvement will depend on the quality of the stored file.

[John]

I enjoy both mediums My preference is still vinyl and not just because i am romantic but most of my music is file based as most of the albums I want I cannot get on vinyl
I enjoy both as I just love listening to music

[StanleyB]

Had it not been for vinyl, many of my DAC mods would probably never have been developed.

[lurcher]

Good point that Stanley, I hadn't thought of it before, but I think its possibly true for DAC's in general.

[Batty]

My main listening is done with a vinyl rig, but I do have CDs and Files, I use an old Pioneer DVD player a 676A as a transport and stream files from my NAS to SB Touch, I bought an Audio-GD NFB2 DAC for $450US plus post from china (another $50). I plug the DVDP in via the RCA and the SBT via the optical i/p using the selector on the DAC to switch sources. The DAC also has a USB input which I have not used. There is a choice of receiver chips but for an extra $22.50 you can have both, the DIR9001 only does 96K while the WM88xx allows 192.

The differences I have found are that the soundstage is much improve and I can hear more detail in the music than without the DAC. It takes about 30 mins from switch on to come on song, but it's worth the wait.

I still believe that my Viny rig sounds better but the digital is getting there.

Steve