Benz Micro Gold .. OR .. Denon DL103/304

[Vinyleyes]

Opinions wanted please ... I need a spare MC cartridge to replace my Lyra Argo while it is being repaired. I have pretty much decided it is between the Benz Micro Gold or one of the Denons .... HOWEVER .. I am open to having my mind changed before I splash out ... as well as wondering if anyone has any opinions re the Benz versus the Denons ... All comments welcome so thanks for any replies ... fire away chaps with anything on sound characteristics .. or suggest your faves in that price band ..

PS .. my budget is 300 quiddish .. but the DL103 at 120 punds sounds hard to beat ??

:cool:

[griffo104]

I like the Benz Micro a lot and it's a cart I've thought about purchasing myself.

I own a Lyra Dorian AND a Denon DL301ii - I've also owned DL103 and a DL304.
I prefer the DL301ii - friendly output, great tracker and but more ounch than the DL304. However I had to import mine from Japan which may be a pain for you. I like it as a nice alternative to my Lyra.

I do like the Benz cart though...

not much help am I :scratch:

[Vinyleyes]

I like the Benz Micro a lot and it's a cart I've thought about purchasing myself.

I own a Lyra Dorian AND a Denon DL301ii - I've also owned DL103 and a DL304.
I prefer the DL301ii - friendly output, great tracker and but more ounch than the DL304. However I had to import mine from Japan which may be a pain for you. I like it as a nice alternative to my Lyra.

I do like the Benz cart though...

not much help am I :scratch:

No !! ..haha ....... seriously though .. this is just what I'm looking for .. some good alternatives ... which would you say was the warmer sounding cartridge and what would I lose sonically by buying the 103 instead of the Micro Gold .. from your listening experience ..

:cool:

[Darren]

What arm is this cartridge going to be used in?

[Vinyleyes]

What arm is this cartridge going to be used in?

SMEV .. on SME20 deck ... it is just for a spare/occasional use ...

Thanks

[griffo104]

As someone who loves the Lyra sound, the DL103 is as far from that as I think it's possible to get. where as you have that lovely open treble (or toppy as some say) the DL103 sounds almost shut in by comparison and the DL103 has plenty of bass depth the bass sound fat and lazy compared to the Lyra carts. Also the bog standard DL103 has a horrible conical stylus, fine with some records but there's no denying the rise in distortion as it moves to the inner grooves. yuck, horrible thing.

The DL304 is far better, it has much more refined sound, lovely open treble, nice mid band and the bass is well defined. However it is what I would call a nice cart. It'll never offend you but it may not quite excite you all the time either and I found in my setup it can sound a little bit lacking in dynamics.

Both the carts above do benefit from going through a (very) good step ip transformer to get the best out of them, in the case of DL304 it can help the dynamics but it still doesn't do it for me. As mentioned I also own the DL301ii which I prefer to DL304 as it's bit phonostage friendlier but I had to get this from Japan.

The Benz Micro gold is a better all rounder. It's no Glider (which is a wonderful cart) but you can hear the family sound. It's relaxed yet detailed and can draw you in to it's ways. In fact you may end up lusting after the GLider ahead of your Lyra after listening to it - I know I have.

I met someone at a bake off a coule of years ago who had the MC20E2 - the budget one - and in his words he said he never felt the need to spend silly money on a cart again, he loved it.

Audiofreaks are doing the Gold at £220 at the moment.

http://www.audiofreaks.co.uk/boutique/cartridges

To be honest at £120 for MC20E2 I'd take that above the DL103, even if the buiold quality isn't the very best - no doubt the Denon stomps over it in this respect.

[Vinyleyes]

Thanks for those observations Simon .... ... I wish there were some dealers one could go to for auditioning cartridges .... I mean where can a guy go to listen to say the Benz wood against a Lyra Dorian/Delos ... do they exist ? .......... :scratch: ...

[jandl100]

Benz Gold - Denon 103 - Denon 304 ... hmm, I'm not sure you could get a wider bandwidth of sound presentations if you tried!
It seems a very strange short list to me. :)

I've tried all 3 - I didn't like the Benz or the Dn 304 - too lightweight, esp the 304, that was simply without musical foundation in my system. But some folks love the 304 - I guess that must be down to either a) system synergy or b) them being deaf twats. :eyebrows:
Must admit I found the Benz pleasant but a bit dynamically bland.

I like the 103 muchly - and I just don't hear the rise in end of side distortion reported by Griffo.
(Sentence edited as per Marco's post #10 below)

My cart of choice at the mo' is a DV10X5. I keep trying others, as watchers of the AoS classifieds will know :), but always now return to this.
It's got great musical energy and a real bounce to the sound, but also musical subtlety and a nicely focussed soundstage. It can sound a liitle "fragile" compared to the ballsy grunt of a 103, but it out-subtles that fine cartridge and gives a more rewarding overall presentation for me.
_______

NOTE: It is perfectly normal for Griffo and me to disagree about things audio. It's what makes life more interesting. :)

[John]

Also changing the body is worth a go on the 103 takes it a few steps up in performance
I also do not hear the treble issues Simon mentions but arm and TT synergy play a lot in this factor too I no idea what the 103 would sound like in your set up but I guess the Benz might suit it better

[Marco]

I like the 103 muchly - I just don't hear the rise in end of side dirtortion reported by Griffo. But if that bothers you then the elliptical-tipped 103R at circa £200+ should be on a slightly lengthened short list, imo.

I'll add my comments to this thread later, but just a point of correction, Jerry. The 103R doesn't have an elliptical tip, mate, it has a spherical one the same as the stock 103.

The difference with the 103R is that it uses 6N copper-coil wiring, a slightly stiffer body-shell, and the internal impedance is also lower, at 40 Ohms.

You can carry on now! :cool:

Marco.

[jandl100]

Ah - whoops! In the current repulsive lingo of the streets, my bad.

I'll change my original post to save any confusion! :)

[Vinyleyes]

Benz Gold - Denon 103 - Denon 304 ... hmm, I'm not sure you could get a wider bandwidth of sound presentations if you tried!
It seems a very strange short list to me. :)



That could well be so :) .... I really have no idea as to the differences in musical presentation that these cartridges offer. I am working totally in the dark here as I have no dealer that I know of that will let me take my TT there and audition several carts therefore I am going from whatever info I can find off the web.
This thread started with me needing a short term relatively inexpensive cart to use whilst my Lyra Argo is being repaired ... However I do now have the option of trading in the broken Lyra for either a Benz Wood Sl .. OR .. the new Lyra Delos ......... I would love to find a dealer who can present these 2 cartridges for me to audition .... and providing that they could offer me that trade in deal then I would buy one or other of the carts. Notwithstanding the fact they may offer me other alternatives of course.
My personal experience of listening to systems with MC's is practically non existent ..

Thans to you and all for comments so far ........... :cool:

[griffo104]

i wouldn't rule out the distortion i heard from the dl103 being down to incompatibility with the arm.

I heard the cart being used in demo of funk deck at a hifi show a few years ago and heard the same thing. Just thought it was the cart

As to ageeing with jerry, never gonna happen :-), although the dyna he now uses is quite a nice cart for the money

[Marco]

i wouldn't rule out the distortion i heard from the dl103 being down to incompatibility with the arm.

I heard the cart being used in demo of funk deck at a hifi show a few years ago and heard the same thing. Just thought it was the cart


Not enough mass on the arm that was used, dude - simples! :)

One of these days folk will pay attention when I say for the 1017th time that the 103 is not a 'normal' cartridge and needs a high-mass arm (or at least a heavy headshell on a medium-mass arm) to work properly, and so you can only judge it on that basis!! :ner:

Visit my surgery later to have that information chip firmly installed in your brain ;)

Marco.

[Vinyleyes]

Not enough mass on the arm that was used, dude - simples! :)

One of these days folk will pay attention when I say for the 1017th time that the 103 is not a 'normal' cartridge and needs a high-mass arm (or at least a heavy headshell on a medium-mass arm) to work properly, and so you can only judge it on that basis!! :ner:

Visit my surgery later to have that information chip firmly installed in your brain ;)

Marco.

Does the SMEv qualify as a high mass arm ,,, and if not then I guess forget the 103. Do all the Denon carts fall into that category .. I see a new 301 mk 11 on offer at a good price and I am thinking about that.

Still want to demo the Delos against the Benz wood SL though .... :scratch:

Anyone here had experience of them both .. ?

[John]

SME is certainly a high mass arm, but might benefit from something more brighter To my ears the denon 103 is very well balanced once you get it with the right combination.

[Marco]

Sorry to correct you, John, but the SME V isn't a high-mass arm. It's around 10.5/11g, which makes it medium-mass. However, its solidly engineered construction gives the impression that it might be heavier than it actually is :)

Marco.

[Batty]

DL 103 works well on my RB250 on a Rock with all the magic that the Rock adds like extra mass and damping at the headshell.

[Marco]

Hi Brian,


Does the SMEv qualify as a high mass arm ,,, and if not then I guess forget the 103. Do all the Denon carts fall into that category .. I see a new 301 mk 11 on offer at a good price and I am thinking about that.


I've partially answered your question in my response to John. Some people, however, still like the 103 on an SME V, because even although technically it's not 'massy' enough, it provides sufficent damping factor, through its extremely low resonance properties, to 'grip' the 103 and make it 'behave'.

It's still a compromise though, and doesn't give as good results as when the 103 is used on a genuinely high-mass arm. You could add a headshell weight, but I'm not sure how successful that would be, as it may just over-egg the pudding and thicken the sound somewhat.

As for all Denon cartridges falling into the same category, well no... The 304 is a totally different animal, and doesn't need loads of mass. It would work quite happily on your SME V, but it has a very different sound to a 103, majoring instead on filigree detailing and delicacy, but sounding distinctly lightweight in the bass, in comparison. It all depends on what your priorities are.

What sort of sound do you like from a cartridge and what's your maximum budget?

The cartridge that instantly springs to mind is the Audio-Technica AT-33EV, which is stunningly good, and works like a dream on an SME V, as would an OC-9. Others to consider would be the Lyra Dorian or Argo (i), Ortofon Cadenza Blue or Bronze, Dynavector 20XL and Shelter 301 or 501 - all of which would work very well on an SME V, depending on your budget.

Sorry, I have no experience of the Benz cartridges.

Hope this helps, dude :cool:

Marco.

[Vinyleyes]

Thanks for those comments Marco .. and as it turns out I have found a dealer who will allow me to take my TT and audition both the Benz wood AND the Lyra Delos ... and allow me a trade in for my damaged Argo if I choose the Delos. The Delos has now replaced the Argo in the Lyra stable and is said to be quite superior and a little less clinical.
An interesting thing was told me though in my search and it was to do with my Lyra Argo ... I was told that these carts could take as much as 150 hrs to burn in and that the difference would be dramatic once this happened. That got me thinking that the reason I was slightly unhappy with the slightly clinical nature of my broken Argo was that it may not even have broken in yet !
My original query was to help me choose a lesser priced cart simply to use whilst my Argo was away for repair ... I may still do this anyway so I will be keeping an eye out for possibly a slightly used AT-33E ..as having researched this it does as you say seem an extremely good catch for the money.
Anyway .. I am planning to get to Salford and meet you all and no doubt considerably expand my experience of listening to other's systems ... is anyone bringing some Tannoys ... :cool:

[Alex_UK]

Just a word of warning Brian - it's Scalford (near Melton Mowbray) not Salford (near Manchester) - in case of a logistical planning nightmare if you had assumed the latter. :)

[Vinyleyes]

Just a word of warning Brian - it's Scalford (near Melton Mowbray) not Salford (near Manchester) - in case of a logistical planning nightmare if you had assumed the latter. :)

Hi Alex ... thanks for spotting that but it was just my mispelling :doh: .. I have already scoped out my route. Can't understand why folks think it is out of the way .. it's nicely midway between the A1 and the M1 .. avoiding big urban areas .. and reachable by train from Nottingham and Leicester.... don't know about buses though !

The last time though I was in Melton Mowbray was around 1973 hitchiking back from Glastonbury or somewhere .... I slept in a hedge near the roadsign for it .. :cool:

[Hypnotoad]

I have a Benz Micro Ace, well two actually, a medium and high output, I love the sound, it's detailed, smooth and has low surface noise. Did I say smooth, it's not in your face but to me as Goldilocks said: "This one is just right". Your mileage may vary.

Incidentally I could not bring myself to buy the Glider as the thought of that cantilever sitting out in the cold would give me nightmares.

I have wanted to try the DL-103's but don't have the arm for it.

[AlexM]

Hi,

I also have a Benz micro Ace SM, and previously had a Benz MC Silver, which is very similar to the Gold.

The Silver is a good cartridge, tracks well, and well balanced. Not the last word in detail, and. very slightly bass-light in conjunction with the stock Sl-1200 arm. It worked well with the Jelco. SA-750D though.

I.think most of the Benz cartridges share a house sound, which is clean and neutral. you get better detail, better frequency extremes and tracking as you move up the range. I love my Ace, and would thoroughly recommend it.

Cheers

Alex

[MartinT]

Brian - if you want a good all-rounder for the SME V which has a balanced sound, great detail retrieval and some pretty good dynamics, I would go for an AT33PTG or AT33EV.

[Spectral Morn]

As someone who loves the Lyra sound, the DL103 is as far from that as I think it's possible to get. where as you have that lovely open treble (or toppy as some say) the DL103 sounds almost shut in by comparison and the DL103 has plenty of bass depth the bass sound fat and lazy compared to the Lyra carts. Also the bog standard DL103 has a horrible conical stylus, fine with some records but there's no denying the rise in distortion as it moves to the inner grooves. yuck, horrible thing.

The DL304 is far better, it has much more refined sound, lovely open treble, nice mid band and the bass is well defined. However it is what I would call a nice cart. It'll never offend you but it may not quite excite you all the time either and I found in my setup it can sound a little bit lacking in dynamics.

Both the carts above do benefit from going through a (very) good step ip transformer to get the best out of them, in the case of DL304 it can help the dynamics but it still doesn't do it for me. As mentioned I also own the DL301ii which I prefer to DL304 as it's bit phonostage friendlier but I had to get this from Japan.

The Benz Micro gold is a better all rounder. It's no Glider (which is a wonderful cart) but you can hear the family sound. It's relaxed yet detailed and can draw you in to it's ways. In fact you may end up lusting after the GLider ahead of your Lyra after listening to it - I know I have.

I met someone at a bake off a coule of years ago who had the MC20E2 - the budget one - and in his words he said he never felt the need to spend silly money on a cart again, he loved it.

Audiofreaks are doing the Gold at £220 at the moment.

http://www.audiofreaks.co.uk/boutique/cartridges

To be honest at £120 for MC20E2 I'd take that above the DL103, even if the buiold quality isn't the very best - no doubt the Denon stomps over it in this respect.

I have been told by Select Audio (Official UK distributor of Benz. Audio Freaks were) that these carts (ones from Audio Freaks) do not have the new profile stylus and are in fact older stock hence the cheaper prices.

Have a chat with both companies and see what's what + maybe Benz themselves but having heard a couple of Benzs sourced from Select Audio they are very good and the Gold is a lovely cart. I agree about the Glider though beautiful sounding cartridge.

Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

Brian - if you want a good all-rounder for the SME V which has a balanced sound, great detail retrieval and some pretty good dynamics, I would go for an AT33PTG or AT33EV.


Also a very nice cart but much dearer than a Benz Gold.


Regards D S D L

[Vinyleyes]

Thanks for all the comments folks .. here is where I am now. Regarding the broken Lyra Argo .. I am planning to audition the Lyra Delos ( Lyra product line direct replacement for discontinued Argo) and .. the Benz Micro Wood ... if anyone has heard those 2 I would appreciate any comments.

Regarding the cheaper stop gap as it were cart ... I have a chance to get the Denon 301 Mk11 ... or a VDH MC10 at under 200 punds. The AT33 options seem the best from all I have read and the comments here .. but I think it is closer to 400 pounds ,,,, so the choice seems to be between the Denon 301 mk11 ... the VDH MC10 .. or the Benz Gold (of which I have heard good and bad) ... .. so any final ideas between that trio would be appreciated.

Cheers