View Full Version : Speaker cable - Bare wire or plugs?
The Black Adder
13-09-2011, 19:34
Hi.
Just thinking here... who uses their speaker cables without plugs or spades?
I was wondering if there is any benefits on using bare wire or tinned with solder in comparison with plugs.
Cheers
Joe
The Grand Wazoo
13-09-2011, 19:52
I've used both methods for long periods - first using plugs, then going over to bare wire for about 10 yrs, then a combination of spades & plugs, now just plugs - I've never detected a difference, but then I just may be deaf!
I have bare wires going into the amp and 4mm Z plugs at tother' end for the speakers. Works for me and I have tried differing combinations, but like Chris have not been able to detect a difference. However, I do make sure the bare ends don't get too oxidised, giving them a clean every so often and I reseat the plugs too.
Rare Bird
13-09-2011, 20:38
Er! well i do not hear a difference in between a bare wire & plug so it's the most tidiest for me which is a banana plug.
Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 21:18
Same here, no difference, though in theory it's one less joint.
electric beach
13-09-2011, 21:29
All bare for me :bum:
No connectors. No plastic.
16 awg solid core, so I've broken a few sockets getting them tight. I think that a good connection by whatever means has more influence than an additional connector, though keeping common material type is worth considering...
WOStantonCS100
13-09-2011, 21:32
I've got banana plugs going into the amp and bare wire to the speakers; but, not because I detect a major sound difference. My amp has very high grade binding posts on it, for an old amp (upgraded by previous owner). The speakers have the crappy spring loaded terminals. The speaker themselves are shite, really. :rolleyes:
Whenever I use bare wire, like on the ground wire into my phono stage, I have adopted the practice of tinning the ends of any stranded wire to keep the strands from breaking off. I find you can tighten down harder with less worry as the tinned lead is more durable and won't oxidize as quickly.
Same here, no difference, though in theory it's one less joint.
I also agree with this.
I have 4mm WBT plugs and sockets both ends, so they can be tightened against each other. They certainly won't come loose. The plugs themselves are very securely connected to the thick Kimber cable with two screws, so I give them little thought.
Audioman
13-09-2011, 22:37
I use Mitchel plugs which involve screw clamping bare wire. So best of both worlds.
I have just replaced my speaker cables and have opted for bare wire at this point.
My preference is for soldered on plugs. Bare wire oxidises and tinned ends are very hard and often don't make a very tight connection with screw down terminals. I wouldn't use screw on plugs, the wire will still oxidise; you may as well just put the bare ends directly to the binding posts.
I use plugs, but only because I am paranoid my ham-fisted stupidity would lead to a stray strand causing a short, and for ease of use when I am faffing about trying different amps or speakers - inclined to agree that the best plug is no plug, but then I don't ever recall being able to detect a difference in sound quality either way.
Well, both my amps and my speakers only take 4mm plugs, so that narrows down the options significantly :).
I have locking WBT plugs at the amp end (cos there is just too much cable for most plugs) - but they are soldered on.
The Black Adder
14-09-2011, 18:31
great thanks chaps... :) - I was always under the impression that the less metal in a connection the better. Plus connections should be as tight as can be.. or soldered but it seems sonic wise there isn't much in it... if anything at all.
Reid Malenfant
14-09-2011, 18:39
Just to throw another type of spanner into the works :eyebrows:
I use crimp terminals (tin plated copper) at my speaker connections, these give a gas tight & very solid connection to the cable which is connected to the speaker via 6mm brass threaded rod, also very tight :)
Amp end is bare wire :eyebrows:
Whatever makes you happy at the end of the day :cool:
Ali Tait
14-09-2011, 18:58
Yes I've used crimps before, works very well.
I'm 'on board' with the idea of crimped connectors, my speaker connectors are crimped and soldered.
The Black Adder
15-09-2011, 07:38
Never used crimped connectors before, are they easy to do? Also, what make is best/most popular?
prestonchipfryer
15-09-2011, 07:59
I use WBT 4mm banana plugs, these can be tightened up and I found there was a definite improvement as they sit really tight in the socket. :)
John
Reid Malenfant
15-09-2011, 17:09
Never used crimped connectors before, are they easy to do? Also, what make is best/most popular?
I'm not entirely sure in all honesty Joe :scratch: I bought them off of fleabay, just typed in "crimp yellow" (as i was using 4mm^2 & 6mm^2 cable) & looked for ones with a 6mm hole to take the brass studding.
They are very much all the same chap - tin plated copper.
As to are they easy the answer is incredibly so as long as you have the correct crimping tool ;) I'm not sure what kind of pressure is applied but i'm stuffed if i'd like my finger in there. I reckon a good tonne per cm^2 is probably near the mark which is how come they end up gas tight :eyebrows:
Just to throw another type of spanner into the works :eyebrows:
I use crimp terminals (tin plated copper) at my speaker connections, these give a gas tight & very solid connection to the cable which is connected to the speaker via 6mm brass threaded rod, also very tight :)
Amp end is bare wire :eyebrows:
Whatever makes you happy at the end of the day :cool:
I will have some silver plated crimps at the national audio show mate, pop along and get some for free.
Why doesn't the author try bare for a few weeks and then banana and see if there is a difference sonically.
Reid Malenfant
16-09-2011, 20:35
Hi David, i'd love to chap but i have a distinct lack of transport :rolleyes:
However, you have just reminded me of something so thanks a load :eyebrows:
:thumbsup:
you cannot be too far away, want picking up, you'll have to be up early though and stay all day?
Reid Malenfant
16-09-2011, 20:42
you cannot be too far away, want picking up, you'll have to be up early though and stay all day?
Hmmm, i'll PM you David. See what this is about & when it is ;)
I guess if you are going south it might not be too bad for you...
Cheers chap, i'll be in touch in a day or so, probably tomorrow if i remember :) Very good of you to suggest such a thing ;) Thank you.
I set off friday morning from huddersfield, get there after lucnh and set my stand up, stop in a travel lodge friday, saturday so could take you say saturday and drop you back home sat after the show. Depending on how far away you live of course.
The Black Adder
16-09-2011, 21:25
Why doesn't the author try bare for a few weeks and then banana and see if there is a difference sonically.
What a great idea... haha.. Ah, I just wanted to know if there was a general consensus about such things as I grew up with the likes of bare wire to speakers. Some plugs seem to be silly money so whats it all about?
One of those questions that probably has no definitive awnser I guess.. Very subjective as the thread has demonstrated.
If they haven't got you one way they've got you another... :)
The Grand Wazoo
16-09-2011, 21:30
Very subjective as the thread has demonstrated.
That's the thing isn't it? - Everyone has their own reasons for their own personal choice, but I don't think anyone actually said they'd found one to be better sounding than the other (even though the thought processes used to arrive at a given method are often based on the theory of what is supposed to sound better).
Conclusion?
Unless there are practical reasons for doing otherwise, save your cash & stick with bare wire!
The Black Adder
17-09-2011, 13:03
Yup! :)
Well, my recommendations are based on consistency of connection quality - so the connection you create today is the same as the one you have in six months.
I'm not a fan of exotic materials for connectors - there's nothing wrong with nickle as far as I am concerned.
The only problem with crimped connectors is that you have to crimp them really, really tight to the cable and the ones I dealt with came with specific levered pliers to get the connection.
Reid Malenfant
17-09-2011, 19:45
The only problem with crimped connectors is that you have to crimp them really, really tight to the cable and the ones I dealt with came with specific levered pliers to get the connection.
Indeed, that's where i mentioned what looks like something over 1 tonne per cm^2 to get a gas tight connection. This is no ordinary looking set of "pliers" though, it's levered so even more pressure is applied.
Probably similar to what you are using or used Mark, these beasties will crimp from 2.5mm^2 to 16mm^2 cables as standard :)
Yes, I probably didn't phrase it very well - bit under the weather at the minute.
Ali Tait
17-09-2011, 21:54
To crimp correctly, a crimping tool specific to the crimp needs to be used.
Rare Bird
17-09-2011, 22:07
I was always under the impression that the less metal in a connection the better.
Don't worry just snip off another inch of you cale to make up for it :lol:
To crimp correctly, a crimping tool specific to the crimp needs to be used.
yes
Reid Malenfant
18-09-2011, 17:19
To crimp correctly, a crimping tool specific to the crimp needs to be used.
Not forgetting of course that the crimp needs to be specified for the cable cross sectional area as well ;)
The Black Adder
18-09-2011, 17:54
Blimey!... lol
I think I'll stick with bare wire.
Guys
A crimp is a small tube a few thousands of an inch wall thickness, get a grip guys, a small pair of pliers will do the job nicely. I am sure you are just winding the author up are you not? Do you detect a difference in sound quality if you have not used a dedicated crimping tool. :lol:
Things of beauty number 1254:-
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_2839.jpg
Bare wire will oxidise, that's why sealed connectors exist.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here are some Furutech gold plated one's for a thing of beauty number 1256, 1255 has just been taken by the wife. :lolsign:
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_2838.jpg
Bare wire will oxidise, that's why sealed connectors exist.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very true boss but oxidized silver is still a good conductor!
"Sent from my private jet"
Reid Malenfant
18-09-2011, 20:16
David, i was in no way winding up Joe...
Crimps need to be selected for the proper cable cross sectional area of cable to be crimped & as Ali pointed out the correct tool needs to be used for the crimp so as the thing is compressed to the right value..
I kid you not, i have a power press regulations certificate so i can strip & rebuild industrial crimping machines ;)
The same applies to hand operated crimping tools, right crimp, right tool to do the job...
Pliers :lolsign: Having a laugh mate :ner:
The Grand Wazoo
18-09-2011, 20:28
This would be a good opportunity to take a squint at the jolly old AoS Library, me old muckers:
Soldered & Crimp Connections: The Pro's & Con's (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9776)
If anyone was going to reply I put money on it being you dude :), let's get this into perspective, we are talking speaker cables right? :)
We are not talking crimping 2 wires together which is a different issue altogether and no pliers anywhere to be seen. I am referring to the ends of speaker wires which was the original posters question. Certainly not this:-
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/0a09743c.jpg
The end of a speaker cable can be crimped using the sleeves in my picture in the previous post, simply slot them over the ends of the bare wires, they help to form a tight contact when the binding post is tightened and if using banana plugs too if they are the screw down type, they can improve performance too if they are silver plated (not tin which is a lousy conductor).
This would be a good opportunity to take a squint at the jolly old AoS Library, me old muckers:
Soldered & Crimp Connections: The Pro's & Con's (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9776)
Yes it would but crimping a speaker cable is totally different to crimping wires carrying 240 volts which is where no shortcuts can be made. Hope that clears it up.
BTW free silver plated audiophile grade cable crimp sleeves available on my stand at the NAS Whittelbury, see what all the fuss is about in person. :lol:
Reid Malenfant
18-09-2011, 20:47
Ah but you see the blue plastic surround? Well there are three colours for small diameter cables, Red, Blue & Yellow & each are designed for different cross sectional areas of cables. In other words they have different sized receptacles for the cables, but they also require a different amount of compression to make sure the things are properly terminated.
If i remember right (long time ago :eyebrows:) Red is from 0.5mm^2 to 1.00mm^2, Blue is from 1.25mm^2 to 2.5mm^2 & Yellow is from 4mm^2 to 6mm^2..
Long time ago & these are small crimps. All of them can be done with one tool, i have the tool (perhaps a couple) to do them. Then you have 10mm^2, 16mm^2, i think the second tool i have does from 6mm^2 to 16mm^2.
Take it from me that the tool is important. It's about creating a connection that is not only trustworthy to carry the current, but is gas tight to prevent corrosion as well as withstanding a shed load of pull to try to pull the whole lot apart ;)
There are BSI pull tests for this kind of stuff... You may not have any idea :eyebrows: It's complex :rolleyes:
yes mark that is all well and good but way off topic cos the thread is about speaker cables not mains wires.
we are not joining 2 speaker cables together boss just terminating the ends so the crimps I am talking about are not colour coded and not surrounded by plastic
off to make the wife a cup of tea now and back to my music, see ya later
Reid Malenfant
18-09-2011, 21:05
yes mark that is all well and good but way off topic cos the thread is about speaker cables not mains wires.
we are not joining 2 speaker cables together boss just terminating the ends so the crimps I am talking about are not colour coded and not surrounded by plastic
:scratch:
David, we are talking current carrying capacity - that's what different cable thickness is about & hense the different crimps & colours , i never mentioned voltage :scratch:
You can purchase the same crimps but without the colour coded layer to indicate what cable CSA (cross sectional area) they are designed for as you mention. It still doesnt get away from the fact you need the right crimp for the cable CSA..
There are allsorts :)
Guys
A crimp is a small tube a few thousands of an inch wall thickness, get a grip guys, a small pair of pliers will do the job nicely.
No, a 'crimp' is a method of connection, not the tubes you describe - it is the act of deforming the metal surfaces under very high pressure so that they essentially become cold welded. If you don't use a pair of crimping pliers you don't have a crimped joint. You can't get anything like enough pressure with a normal pair of pliers. The whole point of a crimped connection is that it has so much pressure applied to it that the connection is gas tight. If pliers is all that one intends to use, then you may as well just use a connector with grub screws; in which case I would rather solder the connection on, or not have one at all.
Everything Mark has written is correct.
(well, I don't know if everything he has ever written is correct - but with regard to this thread it is)
Perhaps the terminology can be adjusted to prove one's point but it's speaker cable not joining 2 wires, crimp sleeve then, is that better?
I will get off to bed now and leave this link for re-iteration of what I was trying to say which was on topic with the original posters question about terminating speaker cable NOT joining 2 pieces of wire together, as you could clearly see in my 2 photos it's a sleeve known as a crimping sleeve widely used in the hi-fi community for terminating the ends of cable like these more well know ones from WBT...
http://www.russandrews.com/product-WBT-Crimp-sleeves-5705.htm
Rare Bird
18-09-2011, 21:55
I asked on here for some tubes for my WBT binding posts a bit back & got no responce :(
Sounds like some confusion over inline crimps and cable end sleeves, both different functions.. The wbt cable end sleeves that David refers to are what the op would require for a connectorless joint. Mark points out correctly that the sleeve must be correct fit, and applied with a tool that produces a cold weld termination, as stated above also, not with small pliers, as per David's suggestion.
I use cable end sleeves on all dry joints, using the wbt tool, Inc speaker ends into spade connectors at both ends, as they provide a tight joint.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (while flying my own private jet:eyebrows:)
while flying my own private jet:eyebrows:
For real? Which model?
Ali Tait
19-09-2011, 10:12
Mark is correct in what he is saying. I have used hand crimping tools pretty much every working day for the last 20+ years (until I hecame a manager), so I think I have a pretty good idea!
David, the crimps Mark is talking about are not necessarily in line crimps, you also get many types for terminating the ends of cables for connection into terminals etc. including rings,pins,blades and hooks. The type you are showing are known as "bootlace" crimps, and you still need the correct crimping tool for termination on the relevant cross sectional cable, otherwise you will not get a gas tight connection that is properly machanically secure.
StanleyB
19-09-2011, 10:49
What I have found to be reliable and easy for me is to strip the cable by about 2cm, then use silver solder to bind the strands together at about 1cm inwards of the 2cm stripped section. This keeps the cable nice and round, all strands are in electrical contact, and it won't collapse when you crimp it. I then cut off 1cm from the cable end so that I am left with a nice soldered end point. Slip spade or whatever over that end and then I use a special pliers with adjustable jaws. I tried a couple of crimping tools, but they tend to have a crimping width of maybe 3 to 5mm wide. The crimping area might however be 10 to 15mm wide. So only a small section of the cable is properly crimped. That's obviously not that good, which is why I use my adjustable pliers. They are about 12mm wide.
But I have seen cables crimped in all sorts of ways, and many of them are quite complicated and would have required tools that are not easily available.
For real? Which model?
No, it was in response to David's sense of humour. Wish i could though, beats sitting in traffic jams on a Monday morning.. :steam:
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