View Full Version : Headshell weight
I am confused; what difference does this make?
Ortofon for instance makes headshells of weights between 8.5 grams & 16.2 grams.
Now (to me) all this means is that, in order to balance the cartridge, one needs to move the balance weight further forward or back in order to get the VTF right (or buy a heavier weight , if available).
Nevertheless, at the end of the day, the VTF will always be the same. So why the difference (apart from the sonic diffrences for different materials, which might affect the sound)?
Marco, in his thread on the Goldring G800 said that it needed a weight on the headshell of some 3 grams - - WHY? At the end the VTF will be the same so how does it affect anything?
Tried the same argument on his thread 'Marco's
latest Vintage Marvel', but he must have been too busy to reply (understandable).
Can't get it together enough to explain it properly, but it's all to do with INERTIA. Some cartridges love heavy arms (not tracking force) and others, often from the early 1970's, need a very light arm if they're to work at all - some even need a NEGATIVE MASS arm :lol:
Hopefully, someone will come on and explain it properly :)
Marco, in his thread on the Goldring G800 said that it needed a weight on the headshell of some 3 grams - - WHY? At the end the VTF will be the same so how does it affect anything?
Tried the same argument on his thread 'Marco's
latest Vintage Marvel', but he must have been too busy to reply (understandable).
Cos mass and weight are different things, the weight is balanced out but the mass, as seen by the suspension of the cartridge, is still altered; this means that the resonant frequency of the cartridge suspension is altered.
Ah! Got that - makes sense, but how does one know when to add mass and how much? Cartridge specs don't give the 'bendability' (what's the correct word?) of the suspension.
Ali Tait
14-09-2011, 08:31
Compliance.
Ah! Got that - makes sense, but how does one know when to add mass and how much? Cartridge specs don't give the 'bendability' (what's the correct word?) of the suspension.
See this article for a full explanation http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html
There is no doubt it is important. There is a very real science/art of arm/cartridge matching.
My DECCA blue did not really perform well until I added a 5g weight to the Sumiko Headshell on the Jelco 750 but my AKG Super Nova (a very high compliance cartridge) suffers poor tracking unless it's in a very low mass headshell. Ideally the AKG should be in a low mass arm not the medium mass Jelco 750 but you can mitigate the effect by reducing headshell mass to a minimum and (if possible as with the Jelco ) add damping to the arm.
Steve
Ah! Got that - makes sense, but how does one know when to add mass and how much? Cartridge specs don't give the 'bendability' (what's the correct word?) of the suspension.
Join the Vinyl Engine forum. I don't actually like the forum that much, but it does have some excellent resources, including a tonearm database, a cartridge database and the ability to compare tonearm mass to cartridge compliance - very useful indeed.
Thanks for that everybody. YNWaN I am alraedy a member of the Vynil Engine forum but have had another look. I am assuming you mean the 'Cartridge & Tonearm Damping Calculator'?
If I am right I can only put in the VTF & Cartridge Mass figures; the rest is unknown to me and anyway I cannot understand the outcome!!
Any help appreciated.
Postcript to previous post:
The point is Marco in his appreciation of the Goldring G800 said it needed extra mass of about 3 grams at the headshell: Now, I am getting a Jelco 750D for my modified Lenco 75 and I have a G800.
What Marco didn't mention, I think without going back to the thread, is the original mass of his headshell.
I have a headshell of 8.5grams with either a 2 or 4 gram weight which can be added; which weight do I use?
Will I hear the difference by ear?
This is all a bit greek to me!
Hi Julian,
I'll try and get to this in more detail later, as I'm currently recovering from a bad cold, but the headshell I'm using with my G800 is a NOS Audio Technica LT-12, which is 12.5g as standard, to which I have added a VPI 3g headshell weight: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VPI-Stainless-Steel-3-gram-Headshell-Weight-/230665105606?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35b4b630c6 - thus bringing the headshell mass on my Jelco SA-750, to 15.5g, which I consider as necessary in order for the G800 to perform optimally.
Without this level of mass it can sound somewhat 'spitty' and lacking control at the top-end, with bass not having the level of solidity and impact that it should. As Ali correctly said, it's all about cartridge compliance (a subject which is discussed at length, technically, on Vinyl Engine).
The G800 is a low-compliance design (like the Denon DL-103, only MM, and Shure SC35C) and so likes plenty of mass, the likes of which isn't provided as standard on modern tonearms, and certainly from the 'tank-like' designs (such as those from Gray Research) which would've partnered it on Gates T/Ts in BBC radio broadcasting studios, during the 1970s....
A bit like this:
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5539/gatesturntable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/gatesturntable.jpg/)
If you listened to BBC Radio 1, during the 1970s, that's what was likely spinning most of the tunes, with a G800 or (original US) Shure SC35C strapped to that rather chunky (and very non-lightweight) tonearm!
I hope that this helps :cool:
Marco.
Postcript to previous post:
I have a headshell of 8.5grams with either a 2 or 4 gram weight which can be added; which weight do I use?
Will I hear the difference by ear?
You will need to "experiment" ;)
While the collective wisdom on this website is huge and invaluable - it is only a guide as every system is different (even if it has the same components as others) - your experience may be different - but that's half the enjoyment :)
Try the 4g and listen - if it's no better or worse than the stock try the 2g etc.
Your ears will tell you when it's right (or not).
There is no "right" answer grasshopper :wheniwasaboy:
Steve
Hi Marco
Thanks for that very explicit answer. The Jelco headshell weighs 12gm & I have a 3 gm weight from a Stanton 500 floating about, so that ought to do the businesss.
It is however 2.5 mm or so thick so I imagine the VTA will have to be adjusted, or will 2.5mm make little difference?
Yes, Stephen, you are right.
Julian,
Make sure that the headshell weight you use is non-magnetic (such as the stainless steel VPI one I linked to earlier), as otherwise it will interfere with the frequency response of the cartridge, and seriously degrade sound quality, accordingly.
No, you must reset VTA. 2.5mm is a massive amount in the world of sonically accurate vinyl reproduction! Good luck :)
Marco.
Good Point, Marco: I just tested the Stanton weight & it is magnetic so that's a no no! Point taken on VTA.
Many Thanks
No problem, Julian. I'd just order the VPI weight, and be done with it, if I were you. It's talior-made for the job :)
Marco.
Thanks for that everybody. YNWaN I am alraedy a member of the Vynil Engine forum but have had another look. I am assuming you mean the 'Cartridge & Tonearm Damping Calculator'?
If I am right I can only put in the VTF & Cartridge Mass figures; the rest is unknown to me and anyway I cannot understand the outcome!!
Any help appreciated.
I was using it only yesterday - hang on, I will have a look....
Go to the Cartridge Database http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php
This has the compliance specification for lots of cartridges. But even easier, in many cases, when you look in the box marked Dynamic Compliance, the first figure is in a grey box - if you click on this it takes you to a custom chart for that cartridge :). When you look at the cartridge mass (should really be weight), remember to add on for any mounting hardware - the SS screws and nuts add up to just over 2g for my cartridge.
I've just now had a little check to make sure I was telling you correct information, and I happened to look up the Allnic cartridge. Now I was loaned one of these cartridges and found it very strange indeed,with a very obvious resonance in the upper mid/lower treble. Looking at the compliance versus arm mass table, I think I can see why. My arm has an effective mass of 11g, but the allnic has such a low compliance that it really wants (at least)10g more - which is a very high mass arm!
OK, I have looked up the Goldring G800 and this is a high compliance cartridge and so is suited to low to medium mass arms and not high mass arms. Even if you use very low weight screws to fix it to the headshell (but I would use SS ones), the maximum recommended arm mass is 14g.
Now I was loaned one of these cartridges and found it very strange indeed,with a very obvious resonance in the upper mid/lower treble. Looking at the compliance versus arm mass table, I think I can see why. My arm has an effective mass of 11g, but the allnic has such a low compliance that it really wants (at least)10g more - which is a very high mass arm!
Indeed - that's *precisely* the effect you get when using a low-compliance cartridge on only a medium-mass tonearm, and the reason why, as a big fan of vintage low-compliance cartridges, that I own so many high-mass detachable headshells! :)
Marco.
OK, I have looked up the Goldring G800 and this is a high compliance cartridge and so is suited to low to medium mass arms and not high mass arms. Even if you use very low weight screws to fix it to the headshell (but I would use SS ones), the maximum recommended arm mass is 14g.
Not true, in terms of the originals, which were fitted with conical styli, designed to track at 2.5g and above! ;)
The G800, Mark, was available with different stylus types. The one I have, with a sphercial tip, and that which I presume Julian is using, is definitely a low-compliance design, needing a high-mass arm.
Marco.
The G800 is a low-compliance design (like the Denon DL-103, only MM, and Shure SC35C)
Hmm..that's not what the VE Cartridge Database says though. The Denon DL-103 is indeed a very low compliance cartridge, but the Goldring G800 is shown as a very much higher compliance design (which would make more sense given when it was made and being a MM).
The Denon does indeed need a VERY high mass arm though (30g+).
__________________
I'm just looking at the specs that VE give - they only specify the compliance for one of the three G800 cartridges they list.
Not true, in terms of the originals, which were fitted with conical styli, designed to track at 2.5g and above! ;)
Well, it's true if the VE Database is correct (which it may not be). The only specs they give are for the conical tipped G800's and for that model they give 20x10-6cm/Dyne as the Dynamic Compliance - which is not particularly low.
Anyway, I will leave it there as I don't wish to get into an argument over a database I didn't make and a cartridge I don't use.
I can absolutely assure you, mate, that the conical-tipped version of the G800 needs a high-mass arm to perform optimally. I own one, and have spent many hours tuning its performance on my T/T, and so know how the Goldring behaves inside out, sonically.
I'm just looking at the specs that VE give - they only specify the compliance for one of the three G800 cartridges they list.
That'll be why! The specs they're giving will be for the E or Super E. Or if not, they are just plain wrong.
Marco.
I am rescusitating this thread as I have recently taken delivery of a S/H Nagaoka MP-10 and I am considering all this compliance stuff whilst awaiting my super done up Lenco 75 with Jelco 750D from Dom Harper.
Nagaoka don't specify compliance but they helpfully give a headshell weight for each cartridge they make; in the case of the 110 it is 9.5grams. Now a large proportion of headshells weigh in at 8.5grams and would come up to a bit over 9.5 with the mounting hardware.
Question is this about right or should one look for an exactly 9.5gram headshell?
Idon't want to be anal about this - just want to understand.
I used to run a Nag MP11 Boron in my Jelco 750 mounted in a Sumiko HS and it sounded stunning - tracked like a demon as well
Steve
hifi_dave
30-09-2011, 16:21
Don't lose any sleep over it.
Wack it in and enjoy.
kininigin
30-09-2011, 17:18
Don't lose any sleep over it.
Wack it in and enjoy.
That's what i say about the size of my todger ;)
hifi_dave
30-09-2011, 18:22
I kinew it wouldn't take long..:rolleyes:
kininigin
30-09-2011, 19:22
you set them up,and i'll knock them down.
sorry dave,couldn't resist acting like a naughty schoolboy :)
Anyway,glad you got the nag safe and sound julian.Compliance wise,i like stephen used the nag with a jelco (sumiko) headshell and jelco arm and had no issues with it.
Hope it goes well with you restorated Lenco 75.Let us know when it's all up and running :)
The Sumiko (Jelco) is perfect for the Nagaoka - wot Dave said - stuff it in and have fun. :)
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