View Full Version : New Tannoys.
Ian Walker
02-11-2008, 21:15
At last the system is complete!.
Here's a few piccies:).
http://tannoy.ath.cx/index.htm
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7538/canterburypairgf2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/618/canterburycloseupro7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2941/tannoycanterburys1ly9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9940/iansamprr6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8638/ianshutterkg6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Ian.
Looking good, mate! I'll ask Rob to do it so that they appear as instant pictures :)
Btw, folks, these sound as good as they look - and then some!!
Marco.
aquapiranha
02-11-2008, 21:44
At last the system is complete!.
Here's a few piccies:).
http://tannoy.ath.cx/index.htm
Ian.
Very nice Ian. they look lovely, I look forward to hearing them soon!
Steve.
They're awesome, Steve, and create a veritable live 'gig' in the room! :fingers:
I look forward to hearing your horns sometime in the coming week :)
Marco.
aquapiranha
02-11-2008, 21:53
No worries Marco, as I mentioned to Ian you are more than welcome anytime (err...except tuesday..)
I have never heard some of the bigger Tannoys, though I have wanted to...
Fact...the word "tannoy" comes from the phrase Tantalum Alloy....more incredible facts to follow...
Steve.
No worries, Steve. Tuesday is out for me too. Friday perhaps? I think this would also be cool with Ian :smoking:
Marco.
aquapiranha
02-11-2008, 22:04
Yes I can do Friday. normally my son stays over on Fridays but not next week...
Cool - I'll arrange things with meesta Walker :cool:
Marco.
aquapiranha
02-11-2008, 22:09
Excellent. See you then.
Ian Walker
02-11-2008, 22:11
Very nice Ian. they look lovely, I look forward to hearing them soon!
Come over now if you like Steve:lol:
If you open your window you should be able to hear them from there:lol::lol::lol:
aquapiranha
02-11-2008, 22:16
Hehe.... I have one neighbour one side with the TV on full blast, and the young chap the other playing some charty tripe, sounds like Pink - that is all I can hear at the mo!! I am getting tempted to give them some Nick Cave at unreasonable and downright anti-social levels... !!
I will try to get over this week, maybe before you two come over?
Steve.
No worries Marco, as I mentioned to Ian you are more than welcome anytime (err...except tuesday..)
I have never heard some of the bigger Tannoys, though I have wanted to...
Fact...the word "tannoy" comes from the phrase Tantalum Alloy....more incredible facts to follow...
Steve.
Don`t be silly...everyone knows that Tannoy is what tells you the 4.30 is going to be an hour late:)
They have improved the cabinets big time over the early stuff.
aquapiranha
05-11-2008, 23:34
I have just returned after listening to the tannoys, and they are bloody fantastic! scale, emotion, detail, realism, headroom...it is all there in spades! thanks again for the opportunity to hear them Ian, see you soon.
:wow:
Ian Walker
06-11-2008, 00:12
Cheers Steve glad you liked them,as you could probably tell i rather like em myself :).
Hehe... Nice one, Steve :)
They are rather special, aren't they?
Don't underestimate though the significance the other components in Ian's system make to the sound you heard. I know his system inside out, and was directly involved in it being assembled, so I know exactly what's responsible for the sound he gets - in fact we own the exact same DAC, preamp and cables.
The Tannoys are absolutely fantastic, but in reality they're only making the most of the quality of the signal they're being given. I know you're not suggesting this, but it's not simply a case of buying a huge pair of Tannoys, plugging in a squeezebox (or whatever) and any old amp, and away you go!
I can tell you from experience that the most significant contribution to overall performance upstream is that of the modified Croft preamp and Ian's AOS/TD valve amp, which combine beautifully and synergise so effectively with his Tannoys. Remove those from the equation, and the sound produced is rather different, as was evidenced at Ian Clarke (the previous owner's) house before we installed the Croft and AOS/TD amp at his place...
Furthermore, IMO, computer audio set-ups only work to audiophile standards (certainly what I could live with) when a top-notch DAC is used (and I mean TOP-NOTCH), and here the Audiocom-modified Sony DAS-R1 fulfils its role admirably, not to mention Ian's meticulous attention to detail in terms of mains set-up (and supports), a process that I also emulate with my system at home. Quite simply, everything in his system pulls together in the one direction and has been very carefully considered.
I just thought that I should point this out for the benefit of everyone reading in case anyone was under the misconception that the outstanding sound Ian's system produces now is solely down to the Canterburys. There are some folks out there you know who are (in a rather blinkered sense) entrenched in the 'speaker first, and bugger the quality of anything else' system-building methodology, which is total nonsense ;)
I look forward to meeting you soon and checking out those wickeeeeeeeeed horns :eyebrows: :cool:
Marco.
aquapiranha
06-11-2008, 09:19
Indeed Marco, I do not disagree - a good system is the sum of it's parts. I particularly liked the Helios, a very flexible and relativly inexpensive device, but as you say, in conjuction with all of the other kit a very life-like sound...
The Helios is great, Steve, and I'm surprised that more people don't use it. IMO, it's a better sounding and overall better solution to computer audio than the squeezebox and other current popular choices out there.
Btw, don't think that my last post was directed in any way at you - I just wanted to (given the thread title and the way the thread has developed) get across that the Tannoys are not the only superb bits of kit in Ian's system :)
You must pop along to mine sometime. Ian and I both have a similar type of sound going on, but since he's got the Tannoys his system now has a good bit more scale and slam - bastid! :eyebrows:
Marco.
anthonyTD
06-11-2008, 18:02
i hear the sound of distant drums!!!:lolsign:
Ali Tait
06-11-2008, 21:30
What's this Helios you're talking about?
tubehunter
06-11-2008, 21:35
I had a Helios X5000 for about 18 months, streamed flac/divx files from my server.(I installed Ians')
The firmware software in the Helios is clunky and crashes now and again.
The onboard Dac is ok allthough thin sounding and vocals can sound pinched.
Better to use a off board Dac.
I now use a Playstation 3 with my homebuilt Dac, 100% improvment. Accessing files is much smoother, I can search for music while playing files even browse the internet and read forums:)
The Playstation brings all my separate boxes into one:
Streams my music, movies and photos from the server.
Has 2 freeview tuners so I can pause/record tv, tv sound through the Dac.
Plays Blu-ray/Dvds
Plays Video games
Web Browser
Best birthday present I've ever had!
Duncan
I had a Helios
Err.... but what is it? ;)
This, ya numpty ;):
http://www.trustedreviews.com/multimedia/review/2007/10/18/Helios-X5000-Network-Media-Player/p1
And it's bloody good streaming Flacs though the Sony DAC, I can tell you! Pisses all over a Naim CDS2, and quite a few other 'high-end' CDPs I've heard...
Marco.
Beechwoods
06-11-2008, 21:53
Those speakers look beautiful. I'm jealous :stalks:
Ali Tait
06-11-2008, 21:56
Didn't know the PS3 did all that.Sounds like just the thing if you're looking at computer audio.
Yes they're 'rather cute', Beechy, in a 76kg (each) kind of way :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ian Walker
07-11-2008, 07:22
Best birthday present I've ever had!
Right thats it i'm getting one on Saturday,fancy poppin over to install it Dunc?:)
tubehunter
07-11-2008, 08:27
ok,
Hehe...boys and their toys, eh? :)
You can give me your Helios then as a birthday present to me ;)
Marco.
Filterlab
07-11-2008, 13:13
Didn't know the PS3 did all that.Sounds like just the thing if you're looking at computer audio.
The PS3 is one amazing bit of kit, it's gone way way beyond a simple games machine now. Mine continually amazes me and I only use it for Blu-rays, DVDs and gaming.
Interesting, Rob. So that suggests then that you don't see it as giving as good (hi-fi) performance as your current computer audio set-up? Otherwise, you'd be using the Sony instead.
Marco.
Filterlab
07-11-2008, 13:39
Interesting, Rob. So that suggests then that you don't see it as giving as good (hi-fi) performance as your current computer audio set-up? Otherwise, you'd be using the Sony instead.
Marco.
I've tried it, but only as a disc spinner which it was very good as, I've yet to give it a blast as an HD player. The internal drive is only 60gb which is a bit limiting, obviously I could add external drives as and when needed but I currently have 2.6 terabytes of drive on the Mac and it would mean moving the drives over and reformatting and reimporting etc etc. The PS3 requires that the TV is switched on in order to use the interface (the TV is a bit huge for simple menu controls) and the PS3 also has no variable output level meaning I would have to use the incredibly sensitive and tiny DAC output control which I normally leave set at 3/4 (4v), that's not as good as controlling Cog's 24bit graduated volume control with the Apple remote.
The PS3 is also very noisy, the cooling fans can be heard clearly in quiet passages of music if I happen to leave it switched on whilst I'm listening to music from the Mac and they get noisier when the PS3 gets busier. Plus, of course, Apple's Core Audio is aimed at professional musicians and producers and now at audiophiles which makes it an ideal source for us digital boys, add the (uh-oh, here we go!) convenience and the beautiful and effortless user interface and the Mac is a much stronger contender.
Some folks of course don't have both a PS3 and a computer in their chosen listening room, one or the other would be a great basis for a digital source. For me though, the Mac takes some beating. That doesn't negate the strengths of the PS3 though, it's a quality machine through and through. :)
The PS3 is also very noisy, the cooling fans can be heard clearly in quiet passages of music...
Interesting, Rob. I'm not sure it sounds like quite my thing. Sadly the above, regardless of anything else, would be enough to put me off.
Ian's Helios media player, for example, is as far as I can tell completely silent - certainly I am not aware of the sound of any cooling fans. The last thing I'd want is a load of 'whirring' going on in the background, especially when listening to quiet passages in Jazz or Classical music.
Marco.
Filterlab
07-11-2008, 15:32
It is a disadvantage to say the least, a shame but that's due mainly to the hot running graphics chips. There's no noise from the Mac or my external drives whatsoever which makes them ideal for music where quiet passages exist.
tubehunter
07-11-2008, 17:34
My ps3 is practically silent. I use it for audio,movies and tv with no distractions from the fan, even with quiet dialogue.
It is the latest model with the 80gb drive, maybe they have modified something.
I found Ians fridge to be noiser:)
My server has 8 1Tb drives installed and that makes so much racket i've had to mount it on the wall in the back bedroom.
Duncan
Filterlab
08-11-2008, 11:07
My ps3 is practically silent. I use it for audio,movies and tv with no distractions from the fan, even with quiet dialogue. It is the latest model with the 80gb drive, maybe they have modified something.
They may have, I got mine the first week of release back in March 2007. Other than the cooling fan noise (which in essence isn't loud enough to distract from movies and games, maybe I'm just over critical :)) I've found the PS3 to be excellent. In over a year and a half with pretty much daily use it's only frozen once and that was sorted from the controller itself, that's good going for a games machine. I've heard some terrible things about the 360, my colleague is on his third in less than a year!
Ian Walker
01-07-2009, 10:24
Here's the latest edition to my system a David Berning ZH270,at last the final piece of the puzzle is in place.........i hope:)
anthonyTD
01-07-2009, 10:28
Here's the latest edition to my system a David Berning ZH270,at last the final piece of the puzzle is in place.........i hope:)
hi ian,
glad to see you have finaly found something that works for you.
A...
Oh it is rather naughty, trust me! ;)
Marco.
Ian Walker
01-07-2009, 10:47
hi ian,
glad to see you have finaly found something that works for you.
A...
Cheers mate,
It was one of those i just had to try after hearing/reading so many good things about it, look forward to your views on the sound when you visit......havnt tried the Soul Mate pre with the amp yet but no doubt it'll get the better of me.......STOP ME STOP ME:lol:
speakers-1989
01-07-2009, 22:12
Nice Tannoy's.
anthonyTD
02-07-2009, 09:32
Cheers mate,
It was one of those i just had to try after hearing/reading so many good things about it, look forward to your views on the sound when you visit......havnt tried the Soul Mate pre with the amp yet but no doubt it'll get the better of me.......STOP ME STOP ME:lol:
yes,
they are a very interesting amp design, although the comparisons they make between their amp and a conventional push-pull amp with an output transformer fitted are not realy fair as they must have picked a real "pup" to do the comparison!. by all means try the pre-amp, either way it will be interesting! and its no good asking anyone to stop you from doing anything, we have tried.:lol:
A...
although the comparisons they make between their amp and a conventional push-pull amp with an output transformer fitted are not realy fair as they must have picked a real "pup" to do the comparison!
Indeed, Anthony, I was thinking the very same thing! The forthcoming comparison with the Copper amp chez-moi (through my Monitor Reds) will be very interesting, which certainly doesn't sound in any way 'broken' when compared to the Berning.
However, that definitely doesn't detract from the Berning being a very special piece of kit. It is unquestionably one of the finest amplifiers I've heard, possessing a tonal 'purity', almost complete absence of grain or 'sonic signature', and quite beguiling way of music making that defies even what I've experienced is possible from the best P/P or SET designs. Solid-state amps of course just aren't at the races!
Quite simply, you can easily hear what the absence of OTs does to the performance of a valve amp, and marvel at the novel solution David Berning has come up with at solving a 'necessary evil'. The provision of variable feedback, via a small toggle switch on the front panel, is a most nifty and valuable feature, which given its intrinsic effectiveness I feel should be considered de rigueur in the design of any valve amplifier.
Could this facility be integrated into the circuit of the Copper amp, for example? :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
02-07-2009, 13:27
Indeed, Anthony, I was thinking the very same thing! The forthcoming comparison with the Copper amp chez-moi (through my Monitor Reds) will be very interesting, which certainly doesn't sound in any way 'broken' when compared to the Berning.
However, that definitely doesn't detract from the Berning being a very special piece of kit. It is unquestionably one of the finest amplifiers I've heard, possessing a tonal 'purity', almost complete absence of grain or 'sonic signature', and quite beguiling way of music making that defies even what I've experienced is possible from the best P/P or SET designs. Solid-state amps of course just aren't at the races!
Quite simply, you can easily hear what the absence of OTs does to the performance of a valve amp, and marvel at the novel solution David Berning has come up with at solving a 'necessary evil'. The provision of variable feedback, via a small toggle switch on the front panel, is a most nifty and valuable feature, which given its intrinsic effectiveness I feel should be considered de rigueur in the design of any valve amplifier.
Could this facility be integrated into the circuit of the Copper amp, for example? :)
Marco.
hi marco,
dont get me wrong, i have already explained to ian that i consider what dave berning has done is indeed very unique in a certain way. i have been looking at the circuit design with great interest, although i am not convinced at the moment that what he has is indeed a true valve output stage!
never the less ian and yourself have heard great things from this design, and thats what its all about.
as for the feedback thing, well, i used to fit half feedback switches to my earlier amp designs and triode switches, but i found that it was best to have the least amount of user/tweaker variables as posible as it detracts from the original ideal of the design.
regards,anthony,TD...
Hi Anthony,
Thanks for that. Very interesting about the valve output stage thing...
Regarding a feedback switch, is it something you could fit to my Copper amp, as I liked the effect it gave with Ian's Berning, and the flexibility of presentation that it offered, or in your opinion would this add something unwanted in the signal path?
Marco.
anthonyTD
02-07-2009, 15:21
Hi Anthony,
Thanks for that. Very interesting about the valve output stage thing...
Regarding a feedback switch, is it something you could fit to my Copper amp, as I liked the effect it gave with Ian's Berning, and the flexibility of presentation that it offered, or in your opinion would this add something unwanted in the signal path?
Marco.
hi marco,
of course it can be done, but when you lower the feedback of an amp you alter at least four important aspects of the design, ie, damping factor, frequency response, input sensitivity, signal to noise ratio.
therefore in my opinion this would not be a good thing to do with your amp as the feedback ratio has already been optomised to gain the best posible performance from the circuit design and components as whole.
regards,anthony,TD...
Ali Tait
02-07-2009, 16:46
My old WAD 300b PSE had switchable feedback,as does the original WAD 300b PP,which I still have.I preferred it switched out in both amps.
It certainly works very well in Ian's Berning, but judging by what Anthony's said I'll probably leave my amp as it is :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
02-07-2009, 17:38
It certainly works very well in Ian's Berning, but judging by what Anthony's said I'll probably leave my amp as it is :)
Marco.
hi marco,
good decision,
unlike a lot of valve amplifiers that use feedback as a "sticking plaster" to fix problems caused by bad circuit design, your amp only uses just enough feedback to further optimise its performance.
if you look on the literature that dave berning supplied with ians amp, you will see how the figures of frequency response etc are affected by the feedback options.
anthony,TD...
Ali Tait
02-07-2009, 18:41
I think WAD did this to allow the amps to be used with as wide a range of speakers as possible.With feedback switched in,the amp's bass response would be better with more difficult to drive speakers,though to my ears it was always at the expense of soundstage width and the sense of air and space.Some preferred the subjectively better bass though.
tubehunter
02-07-2009, 22:44
I found this on another forum, an interesting read.
In Reply to: Re: Why does Dr. Gizmo refer to Berning's amp as an OTL when it's not. posted by DBerning on April 29, 2001 at 00:42:18:
Thanks for responding, hopefully this will clear up any confusion. It seems from the threads on this board that it is easy to get confused by the terminology used. It was clear to me after reading the piece in Glass Audio that this was not an OTL design in the usual sense, but without the benefit of that knowledge, it's easy to see why some might be ledt to thinking that it is from the nomenclature used.
> > As Harvey indicated, the transformers shown in the patent operate at a fixed frequency of 250 kHz. They are not responsive to audio frequencies. This is why they are not called audio-output transformers, and in fact, they do not operate like output transformers even at 250 kHz. Likewise, the MOSFETs indicated in the patent operate as on-off switches at 250 kHz, and do not serve any amplifying or buffering function at audio frequencies. < <
This seems clear enough, but there is some confusion in my mind as to what exactly IS driving the load in the circuit. Hopefully you can clear that up for me. The following passage is taken from your patent:
Toward the fulfillment of these and other objects, the output transformerless amplifier impedance matching apparatus and method has at least one switching power converter bridge having opposite terminals connected between a fixed source of voltage and the load. Two bridges and two power supplies are used for bi-polar or push-pull applications. The returns for the power supplies are connected to the return for the load. The other two terminals of a given bridge are connected across the primary winding of a conversion transformer. The four switching transistors that make up the legs of the bridge are alternately switched on and off at a high rate of speed so that the voltage difference between the fixed voltage and the load voltage is impressed across the primary of the conversion transformer. This voltage difference is a relatively slowly changing voltage, and it is alternately impressed across the converter transformer in one polarity and then the other polarity at a rate determined by the gate drive for the transistors. One gate drive transformer can be used for driving all eight gates of a bi-polar two-bridge system. A gate drive frequency of 250 kHz is practical for desired amplifier bandwidths of 100 kHz assuming simple filtering is used to remove switching noise from the load. The full-wave nature of the circuit and the fact that it uses square wave switching leads to the bulk of the switching noise being high-order harmonics of 500 kHz, which can be effectively filtered with a 2nd order L-C filter.
It seems to me, from my somewhat limited grasp of these things, that the above is describing the use of the conversion transformer to modulate the mosfet bridge using the voltage across the load. Would that not result n pulse-width modulation? In addition, it seems to me that it is the MOSFET bridges themselves that are driving the speaker load drectly and not the output tube? It did strike me reading rhe patent how similar the operation of this circuit seems to a class D amplifier. So I'd be interested to know what the differencesare between your circuit and Class D operation are, and I hope you will forgive my lack of expertise if this is, in fact, a stupid question.
Finally, it sems that you have to filter out the high-frequncy switching noise using an LC filter (as do class D amps). Does this not introduce phase-shift, and, if so, does that not mean that the ampifier does, in fact, invert phase, buy introducing a 180 degree shift via the filter?
Yes it might be "interesting" if someone could translate it into plain English for non-techy dafties like me to understand! :lol:
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-07-2009, 09:25
hi marco,
what the guy is basically saying is what i deduced from my first glimpse of the circuit, it does seem that the output stage is infact MOSFET driven, and uses a filter network to remove the high frequency switching element that is indeed found in class D [switching amps] therefore i can see why people would question the designers explanation of its design in terms of it being a true valve amp signal path and output stage.
hope this helps.
anthony,TD...
Ian Walker
03-07-2009, 21:05
Well all i can say it sounds nowt like any class D amp ive ever heard :)
I would have to agree.
Anthony, having listened to Ian's Berning at length yesterday in my system and comparing it to the Copper amp, it sounds like no MOSFET driven output stage I've ever heard; indeed it sounds every bit as much of a genuine valve amp as the Copper amp does :)
I've got to say that the Berning is VERY, VERY good, and I don't give such compliments lightly. I could easily live with it myself.
I'll be intrigued to know what you think when you come up :cool:
Marco.
Spotted before edit!
I could easily live with myself.
*sigh*... such modesty! :lolsign:
Hahahaha... That's not how I meant it! :ner:
Marco.
No, I'm sure you meant it in some sick perverted way that involves a frock! :lol:
Yesh, caught red-handed :o
Ian undeniably looked rather fetching yesterday in his little shorts :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ian Walker
04-07-2009, 10:49
Yesh, caught red-handed :o
Ian undeniably looked rather fetching yesterday in his little shorts :eyebrows:
Marco.
Thanks, and you did too in your Tangerine T and stretchy womens tights like jogging trews:lol:
Hehehehe... :eyebrows:
Watch out or you'll make Mikey jealous! :lol:
Marco.
bonneville
04-07-2009, 15:58
Well Marco whats the score ? Reds or Golds.
:lolsign:
Vinnie
ps Thanks to Ian for the beers and a superb demo of Tannoys & Berning.
Ian Walker
04-07-2009, 16:16
Hi Vinnie,
I think marco is about to pm you re a visitation:).
Just stay away from that little door between his speakers:lol:.
Glad you enjoyed the other night your welcome anytime.
Ian.
Indeed - PM sent! :cool:
Marco.
anthonyTD
04-07-2009, 18:50
I would have to agree.
Anthony, having listened to Ian's Berning at length yesterday in my system and comparing it to the Copper amp, it sounds like no MOSFET driven output stage I've ever heard; indeed it sounds every bit as much of a genuine valve amp as the Copper amp does :)
I've got to say that the Berning is VERY, VERY good, and I don't give such compliments lightly. I could easily live with it myself.
I'll be intrigued to know what you think when you come up :cool:
Marco.
hi marco/ian,
you dont have to convince me, i trust both your findings, i was just giving my view on the circuit, my intentions were all good !!!
as for class D amps, done well they can be very very good too!
anthony,TD...
MosFets aren't the be all and end all either though, are they? Fine into higher impedance loads, I understand they don't much care for lower impedances below, say, 6 Ohms. That was my understanding. Interesting that Glenn Croft now uses a valve driver stage feeding MosFets on the output. From what I gather, it's a great compromise and doesn't cost a bomb either for impoverished fools like me who cannot afford many thousands of quid for beautiful all valve concoctions like Marco owns.......
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