Turntable suggestions please! [Archive]

View Full Version : Turntable suggestions please!

doodoos

12-09-2011, 18:43

Although my system is CD based I do have a Rega 3 which was repaired 6 years ago and has had about 10 hours use since then.
However, I've kept my old vinyl in the loft and recently had a session. BUGGER ME I forgot how good vinyl can sound. I've got the bug!!. But, whilst it's very dynamic with tight bass the sound would eventually be tiring - it's bright, a bit thin in the mid, gets congested and emphasises pre echo nicely.
What to do?
I know Regas can be modded but I'm looking for a fit and forget T/T that's more up to the rest of my kit. Doubt if I'll be buying new vinyl but want to get the best of what I've got which includes some Sheffield Labs direct cuts from my younger days.
I'm well out of touch with vinyl but I need to retain the dynamic, tight bass character of the Rega/RB300/ Corus blue that I'm using whilst building on it.
This is a jungle so need some help.
My online plodding so far has come up with say, Michell Orbe, SME 10. That sort of thing.
Any suggestions chaps. Nothing flashy and a small footprint would be best.
Not much space you see.

MartinT

12-09-2011, 19:00

For your level of kit, Robin, you need a deck at a much higher level of performance than a Rega 3. if you really want fit-and-forget then I'm not going to recommend a Technics SL-1210 with mods. An Orbe would certainly get you there (but not the Rega arm unless you want a grey sound). I was very impressed by the VPI Scout series, the deck and arm are both good performers and it's a nice looking, compact turntable. Couple it with a good MC and you would be rid of the brightness and be luxuriating in the detail, spaciousness and frankly amazing dynamics of vinyl.

MCRU

12-09-2011, 19:16

Hi,
If you embark on the Technic's route be prepared to sell your wife and kids (only joking) but I mean it will cost you dearly as it is extremely addictive, you will however be rewarded with some of the best sound ever heard from vinyl.

Start IMO of course with an e-bay SL1200/1210 and go from there, each month add a bit here and there as funds allow, new feet, new arm, etc, etc.

Or you can be really boring and just buy something else....:)

doodoos

12-09-2011, 19:35

Thanks Martin - I'll look at VPI. No I'm not going down the Technics route, whatever it is .

Wakefield Turntables

12-09-2011, 19:39

Orbe + SME arm would be very nice and have a small footprint. Avoid the 1210 unless you want to spend thousands!!

BTH K10A

12-09-2011, 20:07

The Brinkman direct drive turntable is a very neat package. I think it retails around £3.5k with tonearm.

http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php?prod=oasis&lang=en

Gromit

12-09-2011, 20:19

The SL12 Technics would be fun as a long-term project but of course there would be lots of other, very fine choices. If it were my money, I would look at something like a NAS Hyperspace. I owned a Spacedeck/Spacearm/Lyra Dorian for a few years and it kept me very happy, in fact I moved onto it from a Gyro/QC psu.

The Hyper is a piece of cake to set up (ie it's just a case of plonking it on the shelf and leaving it there), small footprint and build quality that will last a lifetime. You could of course go for one of the NAS arms - AceSpacearm would be the logical choice paired with a lively cartridge such as a Lyra. The NAS also works very well with Rega-based arms such as the Tecnoarm.

Just another suggestion anyway. :)

DSJR

12-09-2011, 20:34

While you're pondering, give the Rega a good service - check everything for tightness - carefully! I'd be inclined to sell that cartridge and replace it now, as the RB300 will safely take anything within reason out there - in a mechanical sense if nothing else. A belt left in one place for a few months, let alone years, will take a "set" and in Rega's case, may cause some wow. Lastly, and for me the most important for ANY Rega deck owner, the isolation of these decks pays dividends in bass reproduction.

Now for alternatives. The Techie option has been well covered here, so - throwing caution (and snide comments towards me elsewhere) to the winds, the Orbe is a superb deck and quite widely available too over the country. Rega arms work well on this (the Michell Technoarm is probably best suited here) and of course the SME's have always found a sympathetic home on this turntable :) I have a personal love of NAS turntables too, having owned one for a few years (and deeply regretting ever selling it in a moment of madness). A Hyerspace also works a treat, sounding a little "calmer" than the bright and breezy AceSpace models, which so readily out-performed the LP12 back in the late 80's. Depending on budget, if the Hyperspace is too costly, then an AceSpace with Heavy Kit (and a Wave-Mechanic supply later on) will come darned close. Tonearm? I've never heard a Rega arm sound so good, the NAS tonearms are clever and always work well, the jelco should also be an excellent match if a collet is available to fit the pillar and for some unkown reason, HFW tested theirs with an SME IV I think (and liked it). I should cover myself by saying that NAS decks are available from a small but very enthusiastic number of dealers across the country, although the four dealers I know well are in the south-east of England including one in London.

If you're careful and prepared to invest in decengt isolation/re-plinthing etc., then some of the top model 1970's direct drives can be great fun. The better older Techies such as the 110/1100, 120/1200mk1, SL150/1500 and the early quartz models (SL150mk2), the Pioneer PL71, my favourite (looking) Yamaha YP800 (rare but beautiful, especially with original headshell) may actually be real sonic-sleepers if properly sited, matted, footed and given an electrical overhaul and an isolated power supply perhaps?

Hope these ramblings help a bit ;)

P.S. Sorry Mr Gromit sir, you posted while I was typing the above. Glad that another shares my enthusiasm for NAS round here :lolsign:

tim_bissell

12-09-2011, 20:52

I'd recommend a nice, well set up Pink Triangle, or failing that a Funk Firm Vector or Saffire.

-- Tim

topoxforddoc

12-09-2011, 21:15

Robin,

I posted some suggestions on the Wam. So, it's a modern fit and forget system that you want.

Starting with transducers - I've heard lots of carts, MCs, MMs and Moving Irons over the last 30 years. I still come back to my Deccas. I have a rebuilt 1968 vintage Decca C4E that blows my £2.5k Allaerts MC1B into the water. The Allaerts is a very fine truly high end MC. So my suggestion starts with finding a C4E or SC4E for say £200, a rebuild with John Wright at £165 (taking only a week).

Arm to match the Decca - traditionally damped unipivots, but that doesn't really fit the 'fit and forget' plan. So I would go for a Trans-fi Terminator T3 Parallel Tracking arm- cracking match for Decca.

Now finally for the deck. If you want a fit and forget match for the Terminator, then just buy the Trans-fi Salvation TT which comes with T3 arm -
http://www.trans-fi.com/salvation.htm

OK, if that doesn't float your boat, then I would go for a TW Acustic Raven One TT. There's one for sale here at £2750

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?59675-FS-TW-Raven-One

Match that with a decent MC cart, such as a ZYX, Lyra, Dynavector, Ortofon SPU GM Classic etc, and you will have a magnificently built TT, which sounds excellent and which you can tweak later if you so wish. However, it is a truly 'fit and forget' TT. The supplied Jelco arm ain't bad at all and will match most MC carts. It also has a detachable headshell, which allows you a bit of cart swapping, if that takes your fancy. If you buy that one, you'll bypass the long waiting list (always a good sign of quality kit - also you very rarely see Ravens up for sale on the second hand market).

Good luck,

Charlie

DSJR

13-09-2011, 07:47

I'd recommend a nice, well set up Pink Triangle, or failing that a Funk Firm Vector or Saffire.

-- Tim

Sonically I readily agree, but make sure that spares and/or service are available as they're very frail in my experience and reliability not always a strong point in my past experiences with PT at any rate...

DSJR

13-09-2011, 07:55

Robin,

OK, if that doesn't float your boat, then I would go for a TW Acustic Raven One TT. There's one for sale here at £2750

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?59675-FS-TW-Raven-One

Good luck,

Charlie

I don't know the Trans-Fi decks/arms so cannot comment on them, but I do know the Raven and love the finish and overall "feel" of the thing. The ONLY thing that upset me a little is the rapidly rising price in the last three years or so. Maybe it's just me being sensitive to this sort of thing (I strongly suspect it is :() but I agree that it is a good deck. I believe one of the matching tonearms is a Jelco in disguise ;)

Audioman

13-09-2011, 08:33

That Raven looks a bargain but not having heard one cannot say if better than an Orbe. No budget given but even a Gyro SE would be a massive upgrade on Rega 3. If budget tight try with Technoarm or the new Origin Live Silver which is no longer a Rega clone. You could also audition the Rega P9 which is a true fit and forget package. Orbe is still probably the best high end bargain if you like the sound and do not want to spend 4-5K. Also the Notts Analogue and Fletcher Audio decks are worth investigating.

griffo104

13-09-2011, 09:43

The Raven really is an amazing deck, a lot of fuss and hype a couple of years back, especially over of PFM and The Wam but it's all gone very quiet over the last 18 months or so.

It's an exceptional deck though and one I would seriously contemplate.

I'm an owner of an Orbe SE with Technoarm and I've also owned a P3 at the same time in a 2nd system. the difference really is night and day and while the P3 is excellent for the money the Orbe is in a completely different league.

you can use pretty much any arm with the Orbe, the technoarm is a good match but the SME arms sound fantastic on them and a natural match - SME and Michell are both engineering companies whose paths have crossed professionally apparently.

Other decks to check out are the baby Kuzma, The Stabi S/Stogi S combo. fit and forget, supremely musical and detailed, it just needs careful placement.

I've alo quite enjoyed the Acoustic Solid decks when I've heard them at shows as well.

When I chose my Orbe I did listen to an SME 10 and slightly preferred the Orbe, it helped that the Orbe was slightly cheaper as well, but it's another excellent deck.

also check out Avid, the Acutus may be a little too pricey brand new but it's an exceptional deck and another that just loves the SME arms. The cheaper Avid decks are also very good.

Another shout for the VPI decks, especially the Classic which is very keenly priced for the performance coming out of it, imo. Only problem with the VPI decks is that you'll end up having a VPI arm, which although sounding very good and very well built, can be very tricky to initially setup.

doodoos

13-09-2011, 11:11

griffo104

13-09-2011, 11:28

Thanks for the advice chaps. This is a difficult area for me as I've been out of touch with vinyl for so long. Also dealers obviously tend to push what they can demo at any one time. My thoughts are towards Michell Orbe/SME + whatever cartridge or SME 10 with one of their arms. Both have a small footprint which would help. Also need to look at the phono stage - not sure the Creek OBH 15 is good enough.
Some say SMEs' are boring? Any truth there? or is it just a matter of setup?

Just noticed your kit - superb stuff, get the best setup you can, and yes, the Creek will also have to go I'm afraid.

SME doesn't sound grey at all, they are very neutral and detailed and will show the carts out.

I've heard the Nagra cdc in my system and I lurved it big time, it's a great source.

Get yourself a cart like the Lyra Skala, at least and something like the whest phono and you'll find a superb vinyl bound source.

The guy whose Nagra I had a play with has an Oracle V5 (I think) with SME V and a Lyra Titan i and although I haven't heard it a friend who has says it's very special. For Oracle read Michell Orbe (Oracle just seems quite expensive compared to English deck at the moment). And he has to good sense of woning the Nagra cd.

However I would seriously contemplate an Avid as well.

As for the Raven - I think the Raven is actually better than the SME 20, imo, and a lot cheaper.

doodoos

13-09-2011, 11:37

griffo104

13-09-2011, 13:37

Cheers Simon I'll check out the Lyra/Whest route. As for tables about time I bought something British!
I've just seen the price of the Skala - holy shit!! No way - I'm only playing my old vinyl - I'd be frightened to place the thing in the groove.

Yeah but once you hear it you'll end up buying so much more new vinyl.

A friend over on the Wam was NEVER going to get back in to vinyl. He had a Wadia CDP so top rank digital replay but he ended up getting an Avid Acutus, SME, Whest combo (can't remember his cart but it costs more than the Skala) and he never buys cds anymore :lol:

If not the Skala then look at the Lyra Dorian, which I have, as it's superb at the price.

The Orbe is a fantastic deck and I love it pieces. One of the very best bits of kit I've been fortunate to buy. the company themselves are simply superb to deal with and they will make you an armboard for pretty much any arm you fancy - and not at a silly cost either.

Also it is great to buy something designed and built in England with such wonderful support.

MartinT

13-09-2011, 15:00

If you're looking at that sort of outlay then see if you can hear a Shelter cartridge, too.

Another vote for Whest phono preamps, here :)

griffo104

13-09-2011, 15:44

If you're looking at that sort of outlay then see if you can hear a Shelter cartridge, too.

Another vote for Whest phono preamps, here :)

I've heard a Shelter 901 a few times and always been impressed by it. A good shout.

lewis

13-09-2011, 17:21

Origin Live. Check out their website, and while you're there, read what they have to say about phono stages.

MartinT

13-09-2011, 17:27

Origin Live. Check out their website, and while you're there, read what they have to say about phono stages.

Hmm, they're only saying what many of us have said already, that the phono stage contributes hugely to the end result. They also denigrate "budget integrated circuits" but show on the same page the Graham Slee phono amps which use op-amps (which sound fine, but nowhere near as good as the Whest). The thing is, you cannot give rules like "no op-amps" because some preamps use them and sound superb. You just have to borrow and listen to a few with your real-world cartridge, (step-up) and preamp.

Bonky

13-09-2011, 18:17

I am very pleased with my new Inspire Apollo deck. (see sig ).

See: http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/inspirehifi/v2products.html

More expensive versions are available. The Rega arm is a unipivot.

BW

Richard

DSJR

13-09-2011, 18:22

I dunno, "those that know" are going back to Stantons, Goldrings and vintage Shures of all descriptions, some with decent SAS tips on, and you lot are talking thousand pound bits of jewellery and multi thousand tank-like platforms to mount them on :rolleyes:

Now, where's my Garrard AT6?.......... :gig:

MartinT

13-09-2011, 18:54

tank-like platforms to mount them on

Best description of a good arm I've seen today ;)

DSJR

13-09-2011, 19:23

Yours is more like a bloody oil rig! :D

MartinT

13-09-2011, 20:54

:lolsign:

sq225917

13-09-2011, 22:33

As a SME 10 owner, and previous Kuzma stabi/s owner I'm a big fan of small and massy decks. The Kuzma was a touch more 'lyrical' if that makes sense. The SME is more evenly balanced and with better speed control. I could be tempted back to the Kuzma if there was a 12" goin 2nd hand, but I'd need to sort out the poor AC controller.

hifi_dave

14-09-2011, 00:51

chelsea

14-09-2011, 20:00

Pioneer pl 71.

doodoos

14-09-2011, 20:24

Best bet at the moment is an SME 10 with iv arm silver litzed wired with same for phono cable + ESC modded denon 103. Told the silver wiring gives it some vavavoom. Thoughts?

WOStantonCS100

14-09-2011, 22:50

Best description of a good arm I've seen today ;)

Yours is more like a bloody oil rig! :D

:lolsign:

:lol: "oil rig"

Now that's funny!

(...and yes, Martin, I admit, the Dyna is still one of the coolest arms out there, full stop)

griffo104

15-09-2011, 08:10

Best bet at the moment is an SME 10 with iv arm silver litzed wired with same for phono cable + ESC modded denon 103. Told the silver wiring gives it some vavavoom. Thoughts?

I'm on my own on this forum but I once described the standard DL103 as the worst hifi component I ever bought - and I stand by that. In my opinion the only thing capable of getting vavavoom from it is a hammer :ner:

ESC do bloody good work though, they retipped a mate's Lyra Argo so they do decent work. It depends what they are doing to it. the problem with the standard DL103 is the compliance, it needs a pretty heavy arm so you need to check it's compatibility with the IV arm.

Also due to it's 0.3mV output the DL103 really needs a good step up transformer, and I mean a good one, so you probably need to cost this in to the price as well. Unless ESC are doing something with the output. The DL103 was made for step ups and it does sound better with one. Check out the Audiotorium A23 which was made specifically for the cart.

I've used 3 Denon carts, the DL103, DL304 and DL301ii and both the 300 carts are far better than the 103 but that's my opinion.

By the time you've had it retipped, setp up tranny bought you could get far better carts from the likes of Lyra, Benz Micro, Ortofon, Shelter. Of course this depends on your tastes.

I prefer a much more modern sound and carts like the Lyras and Benz Micros take modern construction, stylus profiles and produce arms that track very well and bring out a lot more detail - some would say CD like but that's because they are so quiet and track so well.

If you want a cart with more personality than the DL103 maybe more suited to you, the fact that ESC will probabaly retip it to get rid of the conical stylus shows where the problems in the DL103 lie.

doodoos

15-09-2011, 09:51

Cheers Simon. Will investigate what ESC do + look at the phono stage. Trouble is, with cartridges you take a punt really. Difficult to try and return if not happy, especially if it comes pre fitted with the deck.

griffo104

15-09-2011, 10:11

Sadly Robin that's true.

I was fortunate, the DL103 I had came with my deck/arm when I bought but the seller himself wasn't keen on the cart so I tried it out told him I didn't like and he happily took the cart back off me and knocked £50 off the package price, whcih I was more than happy about. I already had the Lyra Dorian, which I had just bought and was using it on my then LP12.

Carts are a pain as you just can't really try out beforehand.

Certainly the SME 10/IV is a superb combination but I would want to put a better cart on it - especially seeing the rest of your system.

I currently have 3 carts in rotation - I like to change - The Denon DL301ii, Goldring Elite and the Lyra Dorian. All have their own strengths and weaknesses and sometimes I just feel the need for a change and I'll be listening mainly to rock so the Elite maybe my choice which for small chamber music I tend to prefer the Denon. The Lyra is my most complete cart but some times I just prefer one of the other two.

If you do keep the DL103 then you will need to invest in step-tranny to get the best out of it, that could then mean that the phono you also go for could be a simpler MM only one to save on the costs.

whatever path you take I hope you enjoy it. Analogue replay is just so rewarding.

MartinT

15-09-2011, 11:23

From my findings, the mc step-up transformer is even more important than the cartridge, so don't skimp on budgeting for a good one.

kidhoward

15-09-2011, 12:43

Fletcher Audio Omega .3 or .5. Decca cartridge and Croft amplifier. The best I have ever listen to so far. Pure pleasure.

gx502

15-09-2011, 13:19

Avid Volvere SP, or indeed other Avid decks....

http://www.avidhifi.co.uk/turntable_volvere.htm

DSJR

15-09-2011, 13:29

Fletcher Audio Omega .3 or .5. Decca cartridge and Croft amplifier. The best I have ever listen to so far. Pure pleasure.

These late Tom Fletcher designs are very rare in the UK, but I agree. Tom had an instinct where good sonics from LP's were concerned, even if he did use a silicone-rubber band to drive his rather heavy platters round ;)

griffo104

15-09-2011, 14:25

These late Tom Fletcher designs are very rare in the UK, but I agree. Tom had an instinct where good sonics from LP's were concerned, even if he did use a silicone-rubber band to drive his rather heavy platters round ;)

Very heavy platters at that. I remember many years ago at a hifi show having one of them in my hands, heavy and superbly made and chatting to the man himself who was amused at my reaction. Really nice bloke and a very sad loss. Made some pretty damn fine kit as well.

fiddlemaker

16-09-2011, 10:56

The less fashionable Nottingham Analogue decks, eg horizon, interspace, old model spacedeck, can be exceptionally good value on ebay.

doodoos

16-09-2011, 21:40

Have the chance to acquire a Clearaudio Innovation wood + Graham Phantom II + Clearaudio Concerto cartridge at ex demo price. Any thoughts?

MartinT

16-09-2011, 22:23

I don't know the specific model but virtually everything Clearaudio I've heard has impressed.

griffo104

17-09-2011, 00:05

clearaudio make some nice decks and carts. The graham arm is amazing, one of the best out there, better than an sme v, imo of course.

A friend has the entry level clearaudio deck and arm. Very nice and very well made