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Rare Bird
12-09-2011, 13:12
Everyone knows there's quite a bit of this expensive Vintage gear that is vastly overrated/over priced imho.There's pretty much always a cheaper vintage alternative that usually sounds better or at least just as good.

Who's gonna go first then? i wouldnt want to be alone in upsetting a few on here, not that i would want to do that :lolsign:

Barry
12-09-2011, 13:31
I would have a go, however any mention of vintage 'bargains' on this august forum will only cause the prices on eBay to escalate! :doh:

Sad to say, there aren't really any vintage components that interest me that have not already been 'spotted' elsewhere and as a result now go for excessive amounts on eBay. I won't say what they are, so as to try to prevent further escalation. :eek:

I suspect the 'two Daves' might have some suggestions.

Regards

Rare Bird
12-09-2011, 13:43
I know a lot of stuff that never gets mentioning, i don't, & have no intensions in attracting attention to on here.

The Danger is people intrested, that are looking in from outside, generally don't have a brain of their own & rely on word of mouth more than anything, this will no doubt always end in dissapointment. I have a friend that was adamant that he was having a couple of items (that i wont mention) that carry heavy price tags, i warned him they were medicore tripe in reality, but o no he wasnt having any of it, lets say they lasted two days & were sold on.

Well obviously i laughed my socks off. :lolsign:

StanleyB
12-09-2011, 13:57
I have seen the price of one of my amps increase 400% in the last 5 years :eek:.

Thing Fish
12-09-2011, 15:45
I have an opinion but won't mention it due to no one else mentioning theirs...:confused:

Jonboy
12-09-2011, 16:00
Leak 12.1 as being a tad on the expensive side

:sofa:

perhaps the cheap as chips challenge will let the cat out of the bag at The next Scalford show

John
12-09-2011, 17:29
Its a interesting question Andre, I guess in some was it is a bit like classic cars
Some of it will go down to branding, the name and make of the model think E-type jag or Mustang, they congure up powerful images. Whilst Hifi does not have the same seduction similar principles are hapeening on a smaller scale. Also the net and magazines like HIFI World and HIfI News in fact when either of these magazines look in depth at a particular classic hifi kit or Manufacturer from the past I find I am more likely to read it.
I been luckly enough to be able to play with some classic 70s bit of kit in the last year. I love big Japanese amps from the 70s they have a certain style and function that is completly lost today
At the moment I have the AU9500 in front of me I also have ka 8004. One quite cheap the other can go for crazy money in Amercia and the far east. I been using the Trio as phonopre and its performance is very good, as an amp its speedy detailed and clean sounding. It does not have the power and options of the Sansui and certainly not the looks. The Sansui has so much flexiabilty you can even control the input level on the AUX, everything feels well built in terms of functionality and art to me it hits the spot, whilst the switches on the Trio can eaisly break or come off. Both have quite valve like qualities and as I said go for different price ranges. Both are good amps.
For me like everything it comes down to what the person wants. I long given up caring what others think about my approach to HIFI I actually like the fact about having a bespoke system
A while back I had the chance of compairing the 907/919 Sansui against an AKAI AM93 Reference. The Sansui sells at 3 times the price as it has the name, it terms of functionality the Akai beats it as it has a built in DAC that works pretty well, in terms of sound they have very similar charteristics and very similar build. But you pay extra for the name and reputation.

DSJR
12-09-2011, 21:01
I'm stunned how much vintage Spendor BC1's are now going for. I mean, practically all the earliest white-surround bass units are shagged due to the material reforming into its flat shape and disallowing full travel. Getting these bass units fixed is now all but impossible unless the non-Spendor restorers can get the correct formulation of "black" surround to use. The foam cushioning around the grilles has often crumbled away and the cabinets aren't always pristine, yet they go for hundreds nowadays. As for the often screaming BC3's (which the BBC never used as far as I'm aware) which sell for around a grand now........ :mental:


...and don't even begin to get me started on the price of grease-bearing 301's and older LS3/5A's, especially Chartwells........ :steam:

John
13-09-2011, 04:49
Some vintage gear does seem to go for silly money Dave

Thing Fish
13-09-2011, 06:59
I once had a notion to try a Garrard 401 but upon seeing the silly money they went for on fleabay. I soon put an end to that idea.

Out of principal I refuse to pay the overinflated prices people think they are worth.

DSJR
13-09-2011, 07:37
One reason why the Techie is such a bodger's delight - in the traditional and proper sense of the word... The 1200mk2-5 series is plentiful, cheap to buy in often excellent condition and offers so much long term.

I do love the 301, 401 (especially) and Lenco idler decks, but they're naturally NOT quiet, the latter make can show signs of top plate corrosion and wear in the bearing now (maybe through neglect because they were all but worthless until a very few years ago) and the huge cost of Garrard plinths and "official" spares is scary, let alone a proposed range of bearings startint at several hundred and going up to over £3K. I know there is a top tier of "enthusiast" who will happily pay this for the status as much as anything else, but still.......

Trouble is, price stuff too cheap and it's all but ignored. Can anyone categorically tell me that the SME IV and V is genuinely hugely better *performing* than a Rega RB300? I know the SME finish is beyond compare and the feel of their products is amazing (I've finally got my 3009 Improved and can vouch for the "swiss watch" finish and approach to details) but all this aside, does the Series V really sound ten times the cost?

But to answer Andr'e's question - what price status and being with the "in" crowd of audiophoolery?

Beobloke
13-09-2011, 09:05
Can anyone categorically tell me that the SME IV and V is genuinely hugely better *performing* than a Rega RB300?

They're not just "better performing", but in a completely different class, IMHO.

As to the price of 301s and 401s, people get up in arms that a good condition one, serviced and mounted in a decent plinth might set them back £3,000. Clearly this is ridiculous and preposterous and people are mad, aren't they? Well, maybe they are but, speaking as a long time 301 owner, I can't think of any £3,000 turntable I'd swap mine for. In fact I once sat down and worked out the cost of a turntable I had recently heard that I felt did better my 301 in a few areas - total price £6,500 or thereabouts and the bass still wasn't as good!

As to over-rated vintage gear, I noticed that a Connoisseur BD1 recently sold on fleabay for £64. This is approximately £63.97 more than it is worth.

Dingdong
13-09-2011, 09:13
Was the BD1 ever rated? I remember buying one about 15 years ago for the princely sum of £40. It fell to bits a year or so later. I sold the SME 3009 it came with a year or so ago for £220, so did quite alright.
I think the 3009's go for a bit more money than their sonic ability is worth. They do look pretty on the right turntable. Got myself a Hadcock for £160 which is a bit of a billy bargain in comparison.

John
13-09-2011, 11:01
They're not just "better performing", but in a completely different class, IMHO.

As to the price of 301s and 401s, people get up in arms that a good condition one, serviced and mounted in a decent plinth might set them back £3,000. Clearly this is ridiculous and preposterous and people are mad, aren't they? Well, maybe they are but, speaking as a long time 301 owner, I can't think of any £3,000 turntable I'd swap mine for. In fact I once sat down and worked out the cost of a turntable I had recently heard that I felt did better my 301 in a few areas - total price £6,500 or thereabouts and the bass still wasn't as good!

As to over-rated vintage gear, I noticed that a Connoisseur BD1 recently sold on fleabay for £64. This is approximately £63.97 more than it is worth.

There is a TT that costs £2500 that out performs the 301 fully modified and comes with arm Just imho and Clive who has the 301 would agree

Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 11:11
Vic's by any chance?:)

John
13-09-2011, 12:03
Yep pretty awesome TT

AlexM
13-09-2011, 13:09
there is much early digital gear being hawked at vastly inflated prices. As an example of this, I would mention the Sony CDP-101, which seems to be undergoing something of a renaissance/revisionist reappraisal.

I think that this is mainly on the basis of a supposedly cost-no-object build and material content, because it surely isn't based on it's sound quality, performance or reliability.

Having owned one from new I can attest to the fact that it was built like a tank, and is stuffed full of components but I think that this is because they simply didn't have the means to build it any other way.

The reliability of the player was beyond a joke, disc tracking performance was totally apalling by modern standards, and the sound was cold and steely. What do you expect with a single mono DAC shared between channels?. Those hyping this device would contend that it has all been downhill since then, and that it's performance rivals or betters modern equipment... utter, utter tosh I say!.

There is one on ebay at the moment for $799... complete madness!. I think that audiophiles are elitest in nature, and that obscurity/rarity or unavailability quickly leads to building of a cult with it's own mythology. It is lack of supply rather than merit that drives prices up in many cases, combined by word of mouth hype being accepted without first-hand experience.

Cheers,
Alex

Rare Bird
13-09-2011, 13:30
Out of principal I refuse to pay the overinflated prices people think they are worth.

+1 absolutly i would rather cut my nose off than pay it.

Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 16:24
Yep pretty awesome TT

Yes, got a listen to one at the last Owston.

John
13-09-2011, 17:22
and your thoughts

Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 17:46
Very good from what I heard, but there was a problem with the cart, so we only got to listen for a couple of minutes. hopefully next time we'll get a better listen. Lovely looking deck too.

John
13-09-2011, 17:58
Ahh thats a real shame Its a really fantastic deck
It really loves Decca cartridges but a Denon 103 with a decent headshell will sound pretty good too

Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 18:17
Yes, love the thick slate chassis.

DSJR
13-09-2011, 18:24
They're (SME) not just "better performing", but in a completely different class, IMHO.



Is that in the way they look, or do they actually sound better? If the latter, WHY??????? ;) Is it the wiring (easily changed on the Rega). It can't be the resonances, as both are pretty benign and the bearings are world class on both the SME's AND the RB300 series - the 250 not being as good in absolute terms (sloppy - in comparison - brass loc-tited shafts etc...)

Rare Bird
13-09-2011, 18:30
Since whens this topic been about modern TTs??

John
13-09-2011, 18:57
Thread drift lol Sorry

Ali Tait
13-09-2011, 21:17
Have a listen Andre, it may surprise you.

Rare Bird
13-09-2011, 22:01
Nay fanks

Beobloke
14-09-2011, 09:36
Is that in the way they look, or do they actually sound better? If the latter, WHY??????? ;) Is it the wiring (easily changed on the Rega). It can't be the resonances, as both are pretty benign and the bearings are world class on both the SME's AND the RB300 series - the 250 not being as good in absolute terms (sloppy - in comparison - brass loc-tited shafts etc...)

With all due respect, anyone who says an SME V sounds the same as an RB300 needs a new cartridge, more revealing speakers, a box of cotton buds or a visit to a naughty nurse with an ear syringe!

Another thought - I had a long chat with a certain gentleman who knows more about tonearms than the rest of us have forgotten about them a few years back and he does some spectacular things with Regas. However, the only thing he's ever done to an SME V is to change the wiring - his observation was that he would struggle to improve on the rest of it.

Marco
14-09-2011, 10:12
The SME V is a great tonearm, providing:

A) The cartridge and T/T you're using suits its somewhat dark and 'over-damped' sonic signature (or vice versa). 'Toppy' sounding MC cartridges, such as OC-9s and Lyras, work a treat!

B) You're willing to pay for the 'prestige value' that comes with owning anything which has an SME badge on it. The 'sound-per-pound value', sought by most, therefore, is considerably diminished.

It is, however, an unquestionably superbly engineered tonearm.

I am not a fan of most stock Rega tonearms, for reasons that I have documented here on many occasions. I'd have a Pro-Ject 9CC, Roksan Nima, any of the Jelcos, or a Hadcock, before I'd have any Rega tonearm, short of an RB1000.


Marco.

P.S Got your PM. Soz for not replying yet - will do later. I've been loaded with the cold the last few days, so all I've been doing is sleeping and drinking hot toddies!

griffo104
14-09-2011, 16:03
The rega arms have become ubiquitious with modern vinyl replay. Can't afford the arm you really want ? Get an RB250 or RB300 instead for the time being.

Great compatibility, loads of mods out there and OEM par extraordinaire.

what they have done for allowing a wide range of carts to be played on pretty much any deck is to be repected but better than SME V ? I don't think so.

I bought a Leak Lenco 75 a few years ago for a pretty decent £75 but never had a chance to do what I wanted and ended up letting someone on the Wam have it for £20 so he could strip it of parts for his own Lenco.

what I wish to have time , and knowledge, on my hands though.

Rather annoyingly a few years ago I really wanted a Hadcock, but was seriously put off the prices they were going on ebay for - both the 228 and 242, in fact for little more you could buy a brand spanking new one. Never understood why these prices just seem to go up for a period of time.

Marco
14-09-2011, 16:32
The rega arms have become ubiquitious with modern vinyl replay.

Indeed, but not just for good reasons!

Try listening, for example, to a Rega P2 fitted with an Acos Lustre (or as Rega used to call it, an 'R200') and one fitted with the supposedly 'improved' RB250, and come back and tell me which one you think sounds the most musical...... ;)

Marco.

prestonchipfryer
15-09-2011, 08:04
It is, however, an unquestionably superbly engineered tonearm.



It most certainly is and in mine I use a Lyra Dorian which works extremely well at 1.9 grams. And even early examples beat the Regas, they do for me anyway. :)

John

Marco
15-09-2011, 09:19
Yup. Like I said earlier, John, Lyras (and Audio Technicas) form a sonically symbiotic partnership with modern SMEs. Any cartridge with a spot-lit top-end will marry nicely with the SME's overall rather 'dark' tonality. There are various ways of achieving one's desired sonic synergy :)

Marco.

prestonchipfryer
15-09-2011, 13:23
Any cartridge with a spot-lit top-end will marry nicely with the SME's overall rather 'dark' tonality.

Marco.



'Dark', oh yes, like dark velvety chocolate. Mmmmmmmmm, lovely. :eyebrows:

DSJR
15-09-2011, 13:44
With all due respect, anyone who says an SME V sounds the same as an RB300 needs a new cartridge, more revealing speakers, a box of cotton buds or a visit to a naughty nurse with an ear syringe!

Another thought - I had a long chat with a certain gentleman who knows more about tonearms than the rest of us have forgotten about them a few years back and he does some spectacular things with Regas. However, the only thing he's ever done to an SME V is to change the wiring - his observation was that he would struggle to improve on the rest of it.

My question was largely tongue-in-cheek, but as long as this gentleman referred to isn't the one who makes the arm buzz in the midrange to make it sound "better - more exciting," and offers iffy finish too, then fair enough...

I have it in for SME in ONE area only, and that's the cost of the products, including spares, some of the more universal of which (headshell wires, cartridge fixings etc) seem to be twice or more what they should be ;)

Now owning a 3009 II fixed-shell and a collection of highly compliant cartridges to use in it I can't wait to get it going again..

DSJR
15-09-2011, 13:48
I bought a Leak Lenco 75 a few years ago for a pretty decent £75 but never had a chance to do what I wanted and ended up letting someone on the Wam have it for £20 so he could strip it of parts for his own Lenco.

what I wish to have time , and knowledge, on my hands though.

Rather annoyingly a few years ago I really wanted a Hadcock, but was seriously put off the prices they were going on ebay for - both the 228 and 242, in fact for little more you could buy a brand spanking new one. Never understood why these prices just seem to go up for a period of time.

The Hadcock design was basically very good, but the execution of the early ones was atrocious - the memories stick unfortunately - "You've been 'ad-cock.!"

I know a chap with a collection of 20 or more Lencos in various states. If you want another at a fair price, give me a PM and I'll put you in touch ;)

Barry
15-09-2011, 20:26
To return to André’s OP, at the risk of causing eBay escalation and contrary to my original sentiments I will mention a few, as yet, ‘sleepers’.


The first is the Cambridge Audio electronics, such as the P-series amplifiers and the matching tuner:

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/003-5.jpg
(For some reason I had great difficulty in transferring this image. :scratch:)

I bought the pair, shown above, off eBay for less than £30 each.


There is also the Meridian100 series electronics, which seem to occasionally appear on eBay and go for reasonable prices.

http://www.meridian-audio.info/public/103%5b1064%5d.jpg
(Image: Duncan Rolfe)


Another Bob Stewart design is the Lecson. Of striking and imaginative styling, these amplifiers received very good reviews at the time, though they were not the last word in reliability.

http://www.lothar-kissinger.de/lecson-audio/pdf/Lecson-History%20by%20Stan%20Curtis.pdf

http://groups.google.com/group/lecson-audio/web/the-lecson-story


Another UK manufacturer whose designs appear to attract little interest is that of Armstrong. Their 600 series of electronics were very capable designs, so too the 700 series amplifier designed by Jim Lesurf.

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/history/history.html

Beobloke
16-09-2011, 11:59
Lovely items, but surely this thread is about over-rated stuff, not the bargains?! ;)

Rare Bird
16-09-2011, 12:21
+1

Barry
16-09-2011, 13:00
Lovely items, but surely this thread is about over-rated stuff, not the bargains?! ;)

Really?


Everyone knows there's quite a bit of this expensive Vintage gear that is vastly overrated/over priced imho. There's pretty much always a cheaper vintage alternative that usually sounds better or at least just as good.

I was mearly responding to André's statement that there are cheaper vintage alternatives that usually sound better or at least just as good, and gave a few examples.

Simply handwringing about those items of vintage gear that are now overpriced due to popularity, doesn't get us anywhere and is a somewhat futile activity.

We all know what those items are: anything by Quad; all Leak, Radford, Lowther, Beam-Echo, Kerr McCosh, Marantz and McIntosh valve amplifiers and tuners; all vintage Tannoy and BBC LS3/5a speakers; most Garrard, Goldring and Thorens turntables; most SME arms, and a whole host of cartridges: Ortofon SPU; most B&O; AKG; EMT and Koetsu. This list is endless.

What I was trying to do was suggest a few vintage 'sleepers' that can still be picked up relatively cheaply. I thought that was what the thread was about.

Rare Bird
16-09-2011, 13:15
No Barry it's not about plastering cheap examples on here because that is doing the exact same damage to public cash wise as these overrated items already have done.

Some people actually want to use this equipment & pay a genuine price for it & some have more money than sence & want to feed their snobby badge ego at the same time.

It's as simple as this the old stuff is technically old junk, it's worth what it sells for, just because people like to use equipment this old doest deserve artificially created price tags.

Five mains reasons i buy vintage equipment
1. It's Cheap (or suppose to be)
2. It has character of design
3. I prefer the sound to newer equipment
4. Much better built than any mid market modern equipment imho
5. My obsession with the late 60's/Early 70's.

Marco
16-09-2011, 13:15
What I was trying to do was suggest a few vintage 'sleepers' that can still be picked up relatively cheaply. I thought that was what the thread was about.


Not really, Barry - the clue is in the title... *However*, you've expanded the discussion and made it rather more interesting now! :)

I completely agree with this:


Simply handwringing about those items of vintage gear that are now overpriced due to popularity, doesn't get us anywhere and is a somewhat futile activity.


Yup, and sorry, I don't go with the notion either of keeping quiet about quality vintage gear people may not know about yet, for fear of raising prices on eBay. I'm afraid that's just life!

If I find something good, vintage-wise, which I think members here would be interested in, then I'll shout it from the rooftops - witness the recent Shure and Goldring cartridges and Koss headphones, for example, and of course Celestions and Tannoys.

Even if the prices are raised as a result, chances are whatever it is I'm recommending will still represent superb SPPV, compared to most modern kit, so flagging up the good vintage stuff is still very much worthwhile doing for those who may otherwise spend far more on (often worse) modern equipment.

At the end of the day, AoS is an information database for discerning audio enthusiasts, first and foremost, and so I'm far more interested in what serves that purpose best than protecting the interests of vintage gear bargain hunters, worried about paying a bit more than they might have done otherwise for perhaps previously undiscovered gems.

That's just the way it is, people (sorry, Andre)... :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
16-09-2011, 13:38
One thing you forget Marco is that people like me have a passion for the equipment but find it hard financially anyway, the over pricing is just completely destroying the passion, the excessive vinyl prices killed my record buying antics now price tags being created are doing it with the equipment.

Sorry no I DO NOT AGREE with plastering it all over a posting board because their is a lot of people that dont have a single brain cell of their own who totally rely on recommendations from reputable forum posters with experience to make their minds up for them, some generally have more money than sence.

I have a short list of equipment i have to buy up a soon as humainly possible as i see prices rising for these examples already

Rare Bird
16-09-2011, 13:50
Back to the question in hand:

Why do say a pair of vintage speakers warrant a couple grand when something else of a simular era are next to nothing & more than likley sound better to boot, how does that amount even come into the equation? only possiblilty is the Name & Number :)

Marco
16-09-2011, 13:55
No worries, dude. I knew we wouldn't agree on this matter, but that's fine, as we have different priorities. I have to think about what serves AoS best, as a whole, not Marco, or even you. An audio and music forum is ultimately about members sharing their experiences, and reporting about good vintage (or modern) equipment is simply a part of that.


their is a lot of people that dont have a single brain cell of their own who totally rely on recommendations from reputable forum posters with experience to make their minds up for them...

Whilst I don't share your views about the "single brain cell" (intelligence doesn't really come into it - it's about judgement and experience, which are very different things), it is precisely for the benefits of others that I recommend the quality vintage equipment which I discover, in the hope that they too can obtain the pleasure I get from using it. *That*, for me, is what it's all about.

To do otherwise, and keep things to myself, for me, would be selfish and just plain wrong, not to mention completely out of character!!! :eek:

Like I said, dude, we just have different priorities.

You can console yourself smugly in the fact that your knowledge and experience of vintage gear is far greater than mine, and so you'll know of equipment which is superb, but as of yet may not have been 'exposed', and so will still be able to buy it relatively cheaply! ;)

Marco.

StanleyB
16-09-2011, 13:56
It's not all about sound quality. Desire and location also come into play. Some stuff go for an acceptable price in the US, with the same item selling for multiple times that amount in Europe.

Wakefield Turntables
16-09-2011, 14:10
It's not all about sound quality. Desire and location also come into play. Some stuff go for an acceptable price in the US, with the same item selling for multiple times that amount in Europe.

Which makes sense to shop on eBay.com because you can buy plenty of nice Krell, Mark Levinson stuff a decent prices and then use it over here with a step-down transformer. I did this with my Dynalab tuner, its ace ;) I'd love something more powerful than my ATC SCA2 preamp driving my ATC speakers, I'd like to push them harder and I can tell you now i'm not going to pay large amounts of money for something new. Something with plenty of clout and oomph and vintage will do my very well thanks!

Marco
16-09-2011, 14:12
Why do say a pair of vintage speakers warrant a couple grand when something else of a simular era are next to nothing & more than likley sound better to boot, how does that amount even come into the equation? only possiblilty is the Name & Number :)

Well, first of all, you must remember that "sound better" is entirely subjective, as what sounds better, or worse, to you may have the entirely opposite effect on someone else.

However, one undoubtedly pays more for certain brands of vintage equipment than others (most of which Barry listed earlier), and some of this is based on hype and/or rose-tinted nostalgia (or the love of retro for retro's sake), more than on the actual sonic abilities of the equipment concerned.

When vintage equipment makes it into my system, however, it does so purely on its sonic merit (and sometimes also looks) - nothing else - and it must be proven to my ears to be superior to its modern counterpart, or counterparts, before I will entertain using it. Rose-tinted nostalgia, or bias towards equipment from any particular origin or era, doesn't enter into the equation. I have no interest in that whatsoever.

It's either old and superb, or modern and superb, and it can come from Japan, Britain or Timbuktu. I don't particularly care, but I won't do mediocre under any circumstances! :)

Marco.

DSJR
16-09-2011, 15:22
I think the tumbling pound a few years ago made the UK desirable stuff a bargain on the international stage. This seems to be when Tannoys, Garrards, Quad/Radfords etc shot up in value way over their previous worth. Now 301's and 401's are too expensive, lenco's are getting a pounding as there's still loads out there in various states of tattiness and spares are plentiful. SME tonearms either get sold for good money, or parted out for spares and again, there's loads about, particularly the less popular Series III, which I'm hoping may make a cheapish phono socket conversion on my II "Improved" model one day soon.

Actually, I think older Tannoy prices are mental these days. The Golds and earlier all need cabinet sorting (to remove the wardrobey effects on the midrange) and loads has been said here and elsewhere about the dire crossovers they used back then. the HPD series isn't much better, the boxes too shallow and resonance prone, adding to often unpleasant midrange boxy colourations, the pepperpots can vary on some of these too as the castings obviously were pretty knackered by this time and the crumbling foam surrounds are legendary by now. So you buy some Berkelys for a grand or so - you're going to have to spend nigh on that afterwards to make the things work properly.

I've already mentioned Spendor BC1's haven't I? The Peter Walker interview I posted about discusses what he thought of the first valve revolution in the mid 70's - those that have compared find a good 303 sounds similar to a pair of good II's anyway and is far more powerful, if not much better in the bass....... Quad II's and Radfords may look sublime in a retro kind of way, but there are good modern alternatives you know, some using transistors :eek:

Marco
16-09-2011, 15:52
You see, I'm not a big fan of Quad II's, finding them distinctly 'pipe & slippers' sounding, compared to Radfords and Leaks of the same era, and certainly my TD copper amp. In fact, other than some of their tuners and 57s, in the right circumstances, I could take or leave vintage Quad gear and definitely file it into the 'overrated' category!

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables
16-09-2011, 18:00
You see, I'm not a big fan of Quad II's, finding them distinctly 'pipe & slippers' sounding, compared to Radfords and Leaks of the same era, and certainly my TD copper amp. In fact, other than some of their tuners and 57s, in the right circumstances, I could take or leave vintage Quad gear and definitely file it into the 'overrated' category!

Marco.

OUCH! I think you hit the nail on the head ages ago Marco when you were talking about synergy. Retro gear can and does sound better than some of the being peddled around. I have a mix of old and new and it suits me. I've heard brand new system ranging from a few hundred quid upto 100k. Some have sounded ok, some stellar, but I still prefer my hotch potch of gear.

Macca
17-09-2011, 08:59
Let's not over-estimate the effect of audio forum chat on prices.

For example Linn amplification is pretty much universally reviled on this forum but look at this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-LK1-Pre-Amplifier-Linn-LK2-Power-Amplifier-Combo-/260845017350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cbb931906

Dingdong
17-09-2011, 09:09
Let's not over-estimate the effect of audio forum chat on prices.

For example Linn amplification is pretty much universally reviled on this forum but look at this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-LK1-Pre-Amplifier-Linn-LK2-Power-Amplifier-Combo-/260845017350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cbb931906


That's a very optimistic price. I picked an LK1 and LK280 last year in mint condition for £280. They may just be appearing on ebay soon.

DSJR
17-09-2011, 09:13
You see, I'm not a big fan of Quad II's, finding them distinctly 'pipe & slippers' sounding, compared to Radfords and Leaks of the same era, and certainly my TD copper amp. In fact, other than some of their tuners and 57s, in the right circumstances, I could take or leave vintage Quad gear and definitely file it into the 'overrated' category!

Marco.

If you've only heard Quad II's with their own preamp I quite agree. However, give the power amps a fettling, in my case by Glen Croft, and a decent sympathetic preamp (a Croft in this case...:)) and they do open up nicely, the "charm" being well contained. They sound great with naim A5 speaker cable and driving the "sharper" speakers out there - Epos ES14's were favourite with me and of course Tannoys should be a match in heaven for them as the very old ones have a dry bass and lively treble.

I know they're totally irrelevant in todays market, except for their wonderful aesthetic and no doubt compromised sonic beauty, but there is something special about them IMO.

Marco
17-09-2011, 09:31
Fair enough, Dave. I haven't heard any modified Quad IIs... I must admit that I like the new ESL2805 and 2905 speakers, which to my ears are better in some areas than 57s, and piss all over the truly God-awful 63s! :spew:

Marco.

Ali Tait
17-09-2011, 09:35
You wanna hear Colin's fettled pair, used with a supertweeter, if you thunk 63's are crap mate. Might change your mind!

Marco
17-09-2011, 09:39
I'm always open-minded, mate - if Colin's fettled them, then no doubt they'll be worth listening to! :)

Marco.

DSJR
17-09-2011, 09:44
Fair enough, Dave. I haven't heard any modified Quad IIs... I must admit that I like the new ESL2805 and 2905 speakers, which to my ears in some areas are better than 57s, and piss all over the truly God-awful 63s! :spew:

Marco.

Definitely a conversation to have over a pint or three - 63's sat on the floor or on low stands sound awful. Indeed, the first time I ever heard them was when Quad launched them at a show, the 44 preamp they used had the high-filters in serious use too and there was absolutely NO treble coming out at all - a FAR cry from the previous year when they had 57's on tables playing into a medium sized room full of seats so that people could come in and relax for a while - wonderful sound it was...

A few years later, I was able to hear how stands such as the Arcici ones could drastically improve the 63's. I never did get into the Noel Keyward thing of removing the grilles, cloth and metal, and using Celestion SL600 subs though. By the way, the protection revision the 63's got in the early to mid 80's definitely helped with percussive music I thought and the last I heard 63's at length - with their Gradient subs, and also a used set I sold with some Unison Simply 845's (lovely at low volumes) - they were really usable with all types of music I thought, althoug the bulk wasn't entirely suitable for typical UK sitting rooms, as you well know with the Lockwoods Marco :)

The new Quads seem to have brought back the slight "plastic diaphragm" nasal "whistle" the 57's can have, giving a sense of sparkle. I just hope they last longer than the 63's do, as many of the latter are now "coming unstuck" with reports of widespread panel failure due to glues failing.

DSJR
17-09-2011, 09:51
That's a very optimistic price. I picked an LK1 and LK280 last year in mint condition for £280. They may just be appearing on ebay soon.

My opinion only obviously :lol:, but there's a world of music on your sources you haven't even begun to hear yet :D

If you haven't done it already as I did years ago, just you wait and see :cool:

Dingdong
17-09-2011, 18:49
I don't think the LK280 is that bad. The LK1 seems to me to be the weak link in my system. The use of DG309's for switching and an a to d as volume control just don't seem that impressive to me. This should be rectified very shortly with a bit of luck. I'll report back soon.

Stratmangler
17-09-2011, 19:38
You wanna hear Colin's fettled pair, used with a supertweeter, if you thunk 63's are crap mate. Might change your mind!

You got there before me Ali, and I agree - Colin's ESL63s sound amazing :)

Stratmangler
17-09-2011, 19:40
A few years later, I was able to hear how stands such as the Arcici ones could drastically improve the 63's.

Is this an improvement for the better of worse ? :scratch:

DSJR
17-09-2011, 19:50
Well, IMO of course, the 280 is one of the worst ever amps I ever heard, although I didn't think this at the time - only the truly dire Intek beats it. It sounds grainy, constricted as though the sound is being squeezed out through a narrow orifice into so many speakers and kind of "forced" in presentation. On test, the input stage transistors weren't properly matched, so the distortion created there was amplified up through the system to the output. Just having one internal "driver" heatsink on the board with all the driver transistors fixed to it still wasn't enough to thermally match them. I had mine at home for a very good while, never turned it off and it still sounded cr@p when compared to the Nakamichi I replaced it with..

LK1? The bandwidth limiting (far more severe than either the Quad 33 or any Naim preamp) didn't help and the thing couldn't "do" depth and space in a recording no matter how huge the add-on supply was (I thought the Dirak actually made it worse myself)..

Sincere apologies that I'm being so unkind to your amp, but once you've freed yourself of this bottleneck, I KNOW you'll see where I'm coming from with this. The Kairn came first and that was a much better product, which their AV preamp (used in stereo) trounced some years later and it took several years before the Klouts got their collective act together.

You want a more modern upgrade to another used item? I don't know whether Alex has sold his Creek integrated yet, but I can almost guarantee that it would sound tonally similar but more easy with the music - in my opinion...

DSJR
17-09-2011, 19:53
Is this an improvement for the better of worse ? :scratch:

Better to me - getting them off the floor and supported over most or all of the sides really seemed to improve them over the previous "Quadropod" stand which supported them from underneath only from memory.

Stratmangler
17-09-2011, 20:46
Better to me - getting them off the floor and supported over most or all of the sides really seemed to improve them over the previous "Quadropod" stand which supported them from underneath only from memory.

Ah, so a dramatic improvement then ;)

Colin's ESL63s have the same stands as the ones below

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk320/baron103/DSC_0013.jpg

Thing Fish
17-09-2011, 21:21
For example Linn amplification is pretty much universally reviled on this forum

There are constant snipes and digs at all things Linn and Naim on this forum.

I got tired of it ages ago and pretty much pulled back on my comments regarding this so as not to excite the children involved too much...:lol:

Rare Bird
17-09-2011, 21:55
:lolsign:

Welder
17-09-2011, 22:10
There are constant snipes and digs at all things Linn and Naim on this forum.

I got tired of it ages ago and pretty much pulled back on my comments regarding this so as not to excite the children involved too much...:lol:

The funny thing is Dave the people who pour all that scorn on the Linn and Naim brands are the same people who touted them as the only thing to have a few years ago.

Makes one wonder really doesn't it. They'll happily tell you to listen to the equipment and put aside all preconceptions but apparently were unable to do as much back then. Perhaps their hearing got better, or maybe the reality is they wouldn't know a decent sounding bit of kit unless they got told it was or wasn't.

Thing Fish
17-09-2011, 22:37
The funny thing is Dave the people who pour all that scorn on the Linn and Naim brands are the same people who touted them as the only thing to have a few years ago.

Makes one wonder really doesn't it. They'll happily tell you to listen to the equipment and put aside all preconceptions but apparently were unable to do as much back then. Perhaps their hearing got better, or maybe the reality is they wouldn't know a decent sounding bit of kit unless they got told it was or wasn't.

By Jove John I think you may be onto something there. Makes perfect sense to me.

I can almost hear them seething and hammering their keyboards as they compose their vitriolic replies...:lol::lol::lol:

Marco
17-09-2011, 22:38
Spot on, John!

One thing I can't stand are people who praise kit that they own from the rooftops one minute, and then when they think that they've found something better, proceed to slag off the very kit that to them was once the best thing since sliced bread!! :doh:

Assholes....! :wanker:

Marco.

Thing Fish
17-09-2011, 23:17
Spot on, John!

One thing I can't stand are people who praise kit that they own from the rooftops one minute, and then when they think that they've found something better, proceed to slag off the very kit that to them was once the best thing since sliced bread!! :doh:

Assholes....! :wanker:

Marco.

Wise words as always from our esteemed leader...:)

Macca
18-09-2011, 09:06
There are constant snipes and digs at all things Linn and Naim on this forum.

I got tired of it ages ago and pretty much pulled back on my comments regarding this so as not to excite the children involved too much...:lol:

Well I am using a Linn Lk100 power amp as we speak and used the LK1 pre for many years until I joined this forum and DSJR recommended changing the pre for a Croft - which I did and it was indeed a revelation. The power amps I have tried include a Williams Audio, a Croft Series 7 and Behringer A500 - the Series 7 and the Williams are both superior to the LK100 but only by tiny margin - I could not justify £700 for the Series 7 as the improvement was not £750 worth - if you see what I mean. The A500 sounded dire.

The LP12 turntable (Valhalla) is one of the best decks I have ever heard for musicality, I could happily live with it. I've not heard a modern one. I've never heard any Naim of any description or type.

Incidentally, I don't agree with DSJR about the LK1 lacking stereo depth. With my old set up I used to get amazing image depth with appropriate material - it's got to be on the recording to begin with:) I think it superior to the Croft in that respect although that may not be true of the more sophisticated and expensive Croft pre amps - I only have the cheapest model. I agree the LK1 is shut in and bland sounding by comparison to the Croft - and note I say by comparison. :)

YNWaN
18-09-2011, 09:17
Spot on, John!

One thing I can't stand are people who praise kit that they own from the rooftops one minute, and then when they think that they've found something better, proceed to slag off the very kit that to them was once the best thing since sliced bread!! :doh:

Assholes....! :wanker:

Marco.

Couldn't agree more.

____________________

I'm not sure the old Linn amps are particularly reviled on this forum - they don't carry much of a positive reputation on any forum that I am aware of.

I much prefer the ESL57's to the 63's. I really wanted to like the 63's and gave them ample opportunity to win me over, but they just didn't - if I'm critical, I would say they lacked extension at both extremes and had very limited dynamic capabilities, I didn't find them as transparent as some seem to believe either. I did think they were well integrated, but there were far too many ticks in the negative column for that to make much difference.

Dingdong
18-09-2011, 09:26
For the money I paid (£280) I think the Lk1 and Lk280 sound pretty good. Adding the Dirak improved things a bit.
I'm going to try a new preamp to see if that improves things a bit. I've been ebaying and will report back on the results shortly.



Well I am using a Linn Lk100 power amp as we speak and used the LK1 pre for many years until I joined this forum and DSJR recommended changing the pre for a Croft - which I did and it was indeed a revelation. The power amps I have tried include a Williams Audio, a Croft Series 7 and Behringer A500 - the Series 7 and the Williams are both superior to the LK100 but only by tiny margin - I could not justify £700 for the Series 7 as the improvement was not £750 worth - if you see what I mean. The A500 sounded dire.

The LP12 turntable (Valhalla) is one of the best decks I have ever heard for musicality, I could happily live with it. I've not heard a modern one. I've never heard any Naim of any description or type.

Incidentally, I don't agree with DSJR about the LK1 lacking stereo depth. With my old set up I used to get amazing image depth with appropriate material - it's got to be on the recording to begin with:) I think it superior to the Croft in that respect although that may not be true of the more sophisticated and expensive Croft pre amps - I only have the cheapest model. I agree the LK1 is shut in and bland sounding by comparison to the Croft - and note I say by comparison. :)

Macca
18-09-2011, 09:43
For the money I paid (£280) I think the Lk1 and Lk280 sound pretty good. .

Exactly - can you get a better pre-power combo s/h for £280? Unlikely. You would really have to drop on big time. Not everyone has £5K to spend on the very best amplification, I sometimes wonder if people forget what this super-dooper kit cost them, or if £5K is small change to them. Good luck to them if it is! For the rest of us we have to hunt around for the best bang for our bucks.

YNWaN
18-09-2011, 09:51
The second hand price reflects the reputation - so inevitably a poor reputation means a low price (that reputation is largely based on price when new). It's a good value combo at £280 - even better if you ditch the pre-amp.

Dingdong
18-09-2011, 10:05
I have a Thresham pre amp to pick up this week. A £36 ebay purchase.

The Dirak was a decent ebay purchase at £40. It's a reasonable +/_ 15v supply in excellent nick. I'll keep that and put the old psu back in the LK1 if it's to be sold.

Jac Hawk
18-09-2011, 10:28
You know what, i think it's second hand gear in general that's seen a massive increase in price of late, i think the likes of ebay have a lot to do with that, and also the fact that, nowadays there's a massive void between something that's affordable to average joe but sounds crap, and something that sounds great, but is outside his budget.

To be honest it just goes to show how frikin good the stuff made 20 years or more ago actually is, and the more that people cotton on to this, the higher the prices will go, to my mind there are few real bargains left, but as Andre said, there's plenty of gear going for silly money, i think mainly because of the badge. For instance my dad got a set of Kef reference 101's back in the 80's and i'm sure they cost him £200 for the pair, a fine pair of speakers, no doubt, but are the same speakers now worth over £400, cos that's what i've seen em go for on ebay. Even though i love em to bits, and i would have another pair in a heartbeat, to me they're no way worth £400 a pair second hand.

DSJR
18-09-2011, 11:08
To hopefully politely answer the posts above - sincere apologies if I go off on one, here and elsewhere, but knowing where the "lines" are can be difficult for me sometimes...

This lot's best discussed over a few pints, but here goes...

It was around 1988. I had found the Nakamichi CA7/PA7 and PA5mk2 such an improvement on the LK1/280 I owned I was quite shocked frankly. the Dirak and Spark upgrades for the Linn amp were not to my taste frankly and I was puzzled.. The manager at the "other shop" started to look at the Absolute Sounds portfolio (don't cringe just yet). We'd both known Ricardo for years, although I was a bit scathing about the pricing structure (nothing new there then :rolleyes:). Ricardo kindly lend us an ARC SP14, Classic 60, some Mandrake interconnects and a Micro Seiki CD-M2 player (which I'm sure is now my particular machine). I think I was using Epos ES14's by this time

I found the Classic 60 sounded, with its 60WPC, easily as powerful as the Nak PA5mk2 and came on song within minutes, unlike the couple of hours needed for the Nakamichi, with its multitude of output transistors. The SP14 was a true revelation, having a depth and breadth of soundstage the Linn could only hint at. I still have very fond memories of the SP14, although in absolute terms not really better than the Croft I ended up with (MUCH better "feel" and casework though I admit).

The CD player was interesting. I wasn't hugely impressed with it, but delving in the box I discovered some cables made up by Micro-Seiki - heavy duty stranded copper microphone cables with XLR's at one end and phono's at t'other. I unwrapped these, plugged 'em in and I remember it was the first time I'd EVER heard CD's with a walk-in soundstage. This proved to me that CD was a good format to listen to music on.....

Later, the ARC/Micro gear went to my mate's place and it did the same magic trick on his by then passive 'briks (long story, but he hated the LK280, had abandoned vinyl altogether, using a Nak OMS7E, and settled with two LK2's used in mono, replacing all this with a Nak CA7/PA7mk2 I remember). His system eventually settled down as a Krell KSA80 with matching pre and Apogee Duetta-Signatures, which sounded sublime. he kept this basic setup for many years, before updating each item in turn.

I wasn't as flush as my mate, but I did buy an SP14. At around this time, I met hifi dave at his place, who, once we'd had a few long chats about gear, became a firm friend. The "HiFi epiphany continued and I ended up with the Mentor, Tube Tech Genesis monos (which with hindsight should have been EAR509's, but there you are). This total transformation was a lasting one and basically laid the foundations for my on-off (oh alright, mostly off) relationship with Linn and Naim, which lasts to this day I'm afraid. Dave W later introduced me to Glenn Croft (no, I'm not shilling for him or anyone else Richard, as others stock and love these products too) and, as I was buying my first house and my unpopularity with my then bosses (I was too much of a maverik by this time and still very naive in the ways of the world and people) meant my income was steadily dropping in real terms, the SP14 gave way to the far cheaper Croft Micro4-PP preamp, a sibling of this sample I now use daily today..

So there you go. Apologies for the epistle above, but my hifi journey has been an interesting one indeed and continued after this with the whole ATC/AVI thang a few years later. I'm now finding that vintage early 70's Crown amps can still cut it with the best, as long as you play by their setup rules (which I don't remember us doing at the time, certainly with the preamps) and am keen to get the IC150 up and running again (with new IC's, volume pot - tricky this one - and possibly a fettled power supply, although what's there is so under-used it's probably ok). I already use the D-60's when I "rest" the highly characterful and much loved Crofted Quad II's and the old D150 is simply stunning still, as long as it's not driving 4 Ohm average loads or squeakily balanced speakers, which it ruthlessly shows up ;)

Thanks for reading..

Macca
18-09-2011, 11:29
. For instance my dad got a set of Kef reference 101's back in the 80's and i'm sure they cost him £200 for the pair, a fine pair of speakers, no doubt, but are the same speakers now worth over £400, cos that's what i've seen em go for on ebay. Even though i love em to bits, and i would have another pair in a heartbeat, to me they're no way worth £400 a pair second hand.

Allow for inflation as £200 in 1985 is £500 in today's money. More if you factor in that the KEFs were designed and built in the UK. Go to a dealer ask to hear speakers for around £400 - will they really be as good as a mint pair of used KEF 101? Even allowing for the cheap manufacture in China you will struggle. I have heard £1000 speakers in a dealers a couple of years back (no names no pack drill) give me some 70s or 80s KEFs anyday, there is simply no comparison.

The internet has meant that the bargains are few and far between compared to the mid nineties when you could pick up stuff from the local paper classifieds for pocket money. Now if people want to sell something they go on line and look at what stuff is going for and price their wares accordingly. You don't need specialist knowledge anymore.

Then there is inflation - which has been a lot higher in reality than the government's massaged official figures, and salaries have not kept pace by any stretch. What I am saying is that there are more factors in play than badge snobbery and internet chat hiking prices up, that is a just a small part of it.

Welder
18-09-2011, 12:18
While the vintage enthusiasts keep following what seems to be a Japanese market led fascination with speakers the size of wardrobes and valve amps with hardly enough power to run a model train set, the rest of us get the chance to pick up some excellent sounding but largely unfashionable equipment at reasonable prices.

The advantage of some vintage kit was imo, when prices were still reasonable, you could get decent quality audio at a very reasonable price. How this got translated into, you must have vintage kit to get decent quality audio, is beyond me. However, it does mean that the better sounding non vintage equipment gets left alone by the Hi Fi forum gurus and that means excellent quality audio can be had by buying second hand but out of the fashion band.
Interesting imo that the best audio I’ve heard came from kit that rarely if at all get mentioned on this forum.

Marco
18-09-2011, 12:27
I'll comment more later, John, but in the meantime, out of curiosity:


Interesting imo that the best audio I’ve heard came from kit that rarely if at all get mentioned on this forum.


Such as? That NAD digital amp you like - what else? :)

Marco.

Welder
18-09-2011, 12:38
I’ll get back to this later Marco. Off out for a bit ;)

Marco
18-09-2011, 13:07
Nae worries :)

Marco.

Jac Hawk
18-09-2011, 15:30
Allow for inflation as £200 in 1985 is £500 in today's money. More if you factor in that the KEFs were designed and built in the UK. Go to a dealer ask to hear speakers for around £400 - will they really be as good as a mint pair of used KEF 101? Even allowing for the cheap manufacture in China you will struggle. I have heard £1000 speakers in a dealers a couple of years back (no names no pack drill) give me some 70s or 80s KEFs anyday, there is simply no comparison.


That's a valid point mate, but 1st of all, the speakers will be 30 years old, will in my opinion need re caping and then the cabs will also need a good going over to get them looking anywhere near as good as new, so that could be another £100 on to the price, which you need to consider when buying any old gear. I agree that if you put them up against a new set of speakers from a shop you would need to spend lets say over £800 to get something that sounds as good, which highlights the point i made about old gear filling a void, however the point i was trying to make about the Kef's was that you can easily buy a pair of old speakers that would sonically match or better the Kef's for a fraction of the cost, my Castles are a perfect example, sonically I wouldn't like to have to choose which are best, but then when you consider I only paid £27 for them, it's no contest, the badge unfortunately does tend to heighten the resale value.

Macca
18-09-2011, 15:48
. How this got translated into, you must have vintage kit to get decent quality audio, is beyond me. .

Well I'm not saying that! Not sure anyone here is. Unless you are counting any valve amp as 'vintage' regardless of when it was designed or made.

There are some issues with modern speakers IMHO as they are designed with the modern small living room and WAF in mind and this compromises some but not all of them. The models which are not compromised in that regard tend to be at the very expensive end of the market. i.e 2K plus and out of reach of the average enthusiast even if space and WAF are not factors.

Like in all open markets prices for used audio equipment find their own level. I regularly see 'By It Now' items run without selling then get relisted 10% cheaper. Sometimes 3 or 4 times before they sell.

Who are this army of mug punters who are paying over the odds all the time and driving prices up? No doubt there are a few but the theory that they are artificially inflating an entire market is an unlikely one. Okay it may have been the case with Garrard 401/301 and vintage Tannoy and few other rare bird items but that was down to wealthy collectors from the Orient. They are not pushing up the prices of everything, not by a long way.

Welder
19-09-2011, 23:37
Almost forgot Marco. This is the system i refer to.

The components that can be bought are;
Metric Halo UNL8 Digital Signal Processor,
Audio Research LS26 Pre
Stellavox power amplifiers.

The source is a purpose built file server and the speakers are basically Wilmslow Audio Prestige Platinum with different enclosures and crossover upgrades. Add to this a number of plug ins for the ULN8. What really makes this system special is it was built and tuned to the room it lives in, a purpose built acoustically treated extension.
Its not always the easiest listening experience and I’m not sure I would want to live with it even if I could afford it.

And yes, I still think the NAD M2 is one of the best amplifiers I’ve heard at any price.

Anyway the point I was trying to make is I’m quite happy with the vintage kit enthusiasts creating their own artificially inflated price market because I think there is a lot of better performing kit being overlooked in the hype and some audio enthusiast are picking up some real bargains.

Marco
20-09-2011, 07:38
Hi John,

Interesting selection of kit. There is some real evidence of lateral thinking, which is to be applauded, as it shows your ability to think outside of the box and not simply, sheep-like, follow the more 'well-trodden paths', as it were :)

However, as most of that kit is pretty specialist, I'm not sure that the popularity of quality vintage kit amongst AoS members is the reason why it hasn't been mentioned, as its specialist nature is in reality more likely responsible for that. Also not everyone is into D.I.Y.

And of course, as Martin wrote, no-one said that "you must have vintage kit to get decent quality audio", so please don't exaggerate things and skew the facts.

Let's remember that on AoS we're not interested in just ANY old vintage gear, but rather only the best stuff. We acknowledge that there's plenty of tat around and overrated gear (as evidenced on this thread), in fact there is most certainly more tat than genuine gems, but it's the genuine gems that deserve to be acknowledged and praised, particularly the ones which as yet remain largely undiscovered.....

Marco.

DSJR
20-09-2011, 07:49
I'm no longer in a position to do this, but I wonder what a cheapo system like a Rega RP1, Nad PP2/360? amp and, say MA BR2's would sound like? The whole thing is around £750 or so and I bet it's really good.

In recent years, the prices on ebay have rocketed up and I feel it's been to the detriment of the mid-audio market.

StanleyB
20-09-2011, 10:07
For those of us who were old enough to buy a stereo in the 70's and 80's but financially incapable of doing so, buying vintage equipment is also done out of nostalgia. Like many of my generation, I have a pile of vintage equipment that I find difficult to part with.

Barry
20-09-2011, 14:18
For those of us who were old enough to buy a stereo in the 70's and 80's but financially incapable of doing so, buying vintage equipment is also done out of nostalgia. Like many of my generation, I have a pile of vintage equipment that I find difficult to part with.

Yep, me too - I've become a bit of a collector (especially of Quad gear).

DSJR
20-09-2011, 14:30
Same here, and it crept up on me too - 33/FM3/303/FM2/II's...........

Wakefield Turntables
20-09-2011, 18:46
I bought a pair of celestion dittons 15xr's, a NAD 3020 integrated amp, and a DUAL turntable for a little over £100, used bell wire to connect the speakers and a cheapo £30 stanton MM cartridge. For £130 it sounded great. I have spent more on a single power lead!! Vintage gear has to be seen for what it is, VINTAGE! Some sounds crap, some sounds great but sometimes the fun is finding a cheapo piece of kit and seeing what you get :)

Wakefield Turntables
20-09-2011, 18:48
Yep, me too - I've become a bit of a collector (especially of Quad gear).

I've still got my full Quad 77 setup, my first "audiophile" setup :eek: It cost about £1K 4-5 years ago and it still fires up, still does its job. It's a bit "tame" compared the system I have now but hey,its Quad and its bombproof!

Thing Fish
20-09-2011, 19:08
I bought my setup in the mid 80's and I still have it...! (albiet with a few upgrades)

I love it today the same today as when I first purchased it.

Alex_UK
20-09-2011, 21:00
I bought my setup in the mid 80's and I still have it...! (albiet with a few upgrades)

I love it today the same today as when I first purchased it.

And that is all that matters - as well as the music, of course! ;)