View Full Version : Giving some love to my Technics SL-1210MK2
Hey all,
Was directed to here from AVForums to get some assistance. I'm in processes of getting together my 1st ever proper 2ch set up. I was looking to get a new Turntable but then changed my mind and decided to give some love to my 1210MK2.
Never really been into proper audiophile stuff so a bit noob in all of this stuff so go easy on me :o.
I know that there are a fair few mods to make 1210MK2 more audiophile but I'll start with the easy stuff. 1st of all looking to get a proper cartridge for it. Have following as an option:
MM: Grado Prestige Gold1, Clearaudio Aurum Classics V2A, Audio Technica AT-440, Ortofon 2M Red & Ortofon 2M Blue;
MC: Denon DL-103 & DL-160
Not sure what would be the best so your advice and/or recommendations would be appreciated.
Secondly would like to get a decent Platter Matt, nothing mega expensive but something that does a good job. My understanding is that the rubber matt that is supplied with 1210 is no go, right?
Thirdly would like to add better Feet, again not looking to break the bank but need something decent.
The above 3 things would be my priority right now however, in long term i also might upgrade Tonearm and PSU.
Also, i'm in need of Phone Stage and was considering the original Lehmann Audio Black Cube (2nd hand), would that be a good choice?
Thank you,
Andris
Get yourself a nice cartridge and you will be surprised how good your music will sound. I believe thats a nice phono unit so if its a good price give it a go.
The AT 440 is supposed to be a good match. Ive tried the 2m blue, a very detailed cart but shows up surface noise badly. The red sounds like a good deal.
Thing Fish
05-09-2011, 03:11
Hi Andris, being a technics owner you will be welcomed with open arms on this forum and the very fact you are familiar with the terms - platter matt and realise the need for isolation feet makes you perfect fodder for the forum gurus to espouse their wisdom on this subject.
Just take a deep breath and take your time with the slew of upgrades that will be suggested in the coming pages. Remember its only music and have fun...:)
Hi Andris
I am finding that even a stock sl1200 has some amazing strengths that other decks find hard to emulate, most notabaly timing and low frequency reproduction. I've not felt any pressing need to start modding yet...
I'd suggest getting the cartridge and arm set up perfectly first, which takes a bit of trial and experimentation with the arm height and the tracking force, living with it for a bit and only then considering where to go next.
I am getting good results with a Stanton cart but that may be as much to do with my pre-amp/phono stage and the sort of music I listen to as anything else - cartridge choice is very much down to personal taste and parternering equipment as presentation can differ a lot between makes and models. Likewise with phono stages, I would say go for a valve phono stage but again that is just my preference.
Enjoy!
freefallrob
05-09-2011, 10:13
CHEAP tips for a standard SL1210Mk2.
Remove the rubber washer between the head shell and arm, I find this livens the sound up. (remember to adjust overhang!).
The AT120e/t suits the standard platter mat/arm very well, use the Technics overhang.
Try a wool felt mat on top of the rubber mat, you may find it an improvement (adjust VTA accordingly, top of cartridge level to LP).
Try a Clearaudio Clever Clamp (about £18), tightens up the bass, clears up the sound.
Unscrew the standard feet so the rubber part around the threads is not touching the rubber part of the turntable, it sounds better.
Try some Audioquest litz head shell leads, about £15, improvement!
Anything else is lots of money;-)
Have fun, Rob.
Keeping a close eye on this thread as well now I've decided to ditch plans for a Pro-ject turntable and start to give some TLC to one of my SLs.
Have read lots on here over the past 48 hours, Macca's posts especially on the cheap Stanton cart. Having tried a really rather old, used to hell while DJing Stanton 500 at the weekend indeed the sound was pretty decent. Full bodied, but quite shrill in the top end which i can only put down to hours of DJ usage in the 00's! Food for thought though.
Quite nice to finally get around to doing something I've always wanted to do with the Techies.
My question : is it worth the hassle of upgrading the phono cable? I'm not as fussy as many on here (said with the warmest of love for you all ;) ) but surely it's got to be the next must upgrade outside of a new cart?
freefallrob
05-09-2011, 12:16
I used some of this to good affect, Canare LV61s
http://www.tm3connections.com/displayproduct.php?product_id=11&category_id=74
I had some laying around so thought i'd try it, just cut the plugs off one end.
My question : is it worth the hassle of upgrading the phono cable? I'm not as fussy as many on here (said with the warmest of love for you all ;) ) but surely it's got to be the next must upgrade outside of a new cart?
I'd suggest this be pretty low on your list if you want an "improvement" in the performance of your TT as opposed to just "changing the sound" ;) However, I did find upgrading to linear flow cable on my old Origin Live setup was very beneficial but only after I'd attended to the other bits and bobs.
You can throw mucho dinari at an uber arm cable (excuse the mixed linguistics :rolleyes: )but no cable is going to be able to add missing information to your amp that the TT failed to retrieve from the record because of vibration, poor rotation control, mechanical noise etc etc).
The age-old upgrade hirearchy of TT - arm - cartridge and then source - amp - speakers still holds (pretty much) true.
There's lots of useful info here from folk who have travelled the path (some of us chose a slightly different one to others although the direction of travel is the same). Pay attention to TT vibration isolation (Isonoe feet) look at a good TT mat (Achromat) consider bigger tweaks like a new bearing and external PSU and perhaps platter in that order (a few choices here). If you have a standard Technics arm and want to keep it (an why not it's pretty darn good) consider a rewire (Audio Origami are recommended) then you can look at the cartridge and down-stream wiring i.e. the tonearm cable :)
I know this sounds very prescriptive (which it is) but that's 'cos loads of folk have contributed years of experience to produce a wealth of knowledge as to what actually works in terms of sonic benefit.
By all means change the arm cable - it will almost certainly result in a change in sound but by "following the path" you can be sure (almost) that your money will be well spent and each new upgrade will add benefit to the previous one taking you slowly but surely to vinyl nirvana. :)
Here endeth the lesson :wheniwasaboy:
Steve
prestonchipfryer
05-09-2011, 12:43
In my experience the greatest improvement was o/b psu and bearing. Then arm. Overall the bearing has made the biggest improvement in realised sound quality. If you can go for the Mike New bearing, it's an absolute no-brainer upgrade.
John
Wakefield Turntables
05-09-2011, 13:44
Andris,
How much money have you got to spend? We can all probably give you more information on where to get the best bang for your buck. Upgrading the 1210 is a big undertaking. But, I think it has to be the power supply or the bearing first. You can spend lots of money messing around with new tonearm cables, new feet, new cartridges etc and get no improvement. The best piece of advice I can give you is to spend a couple of evenings reading ALL the threads on the subject and I can bet your bottom dollar 95% of what you need to know has already been discussed. :cool:
RobbieGong
05-09-2011, 13:59
In my experience the greatest improvement was o/b psu and bearing. Then arm. Overall the bearing has made the biggest improvement in realised sound quality. If you can go for the Mike New bearing, it's an absolute no-brainer upgrade.
John
I agree, Mike New bearing and external psu = big change in sound, ie: sound becomes more real and takes you well into the audiophile zone where its about what really is in the grooves and not a lovely sound which has frequencies enhanced / coloured as a result of resonances and other things being imparted in what the needle / arm has picked up and added to the playback. Definately learned this as a result of these two upgrades. In fact the change in sound can take some getting used to but rest assured it will be more accurate. I found I was able to turn my amp up more which is definately due to less of what shouldn't be there (power supply removed from under the platter, hum etc) being eradicated.) Basically a bad recording will play back as such, good recordings will be heaven in terms of all thats there being revealed truthfully. As I've said before, problem is once you're at this stage you want more which is where I'm at. I still have the original arm, which I want to keep as the vta adjust is a gem and a real travesty to bin in my opinion, I also still have the stock 3.7mm mat. Not meaning to high jack the thread :) but where would you experienced modders go next to get even more (detail, transparency, clarity etc??) Mikes copper platter may be the next option but not cheap so on hold for now :scratch: Matts are also one heck of a b*ll ache although I havn't tried the Achromat (Come to think of it I prefer the stock mat over all the so called audiophile mats I've tried ) - Again, sorry to high jack and for any thread drift, the subject of 12XX is broad and deep and pretty expansive :doh:
Wakefield Turntables
05-09-2011, 15:36
I agree, Mike New bearing and external psu = big change in sound, ie: sound becomes more real and takes you well into the audiophile zone where its about what really is in the grooves and not a lovely sound which has frequencies enhanced / coloured as a result of resonances and other things being imparted in what the needle / arm has picked up and added to the playback. Definately learned this as a result of these two upgrades. In fact the change in sound can take some getting used to but rest assured it will be more accurate. I found I was able to turn my amp up more which is definately due to less of what shouldn't be there (power supply removed from under the platter, hum etc) being eradicated.) Basically a bad recording will play back as such, good recordings will be heaven in terms of all thats there being revealed truthfully. As I've said before, problem is once you're at this stage you want more which is where I'm at. I still have the original arm, which I want to keep as the vta adjust is a gem and a real travesty to bin in my opinion, I also still have the stock 3.7mm mat. Not meaning to high jack the thread :) but where would you experienced modders go next to get even more (detail, transparency, clarity etc??) Mikes copper platter may be the next option but not cheap so on hold for now :scratch: Matts are also one heck of a b*ll ache although I havn't tried the Achromat (Come to think of it I prefer the stock mat over all the so called audiophile mats I've tried ) - Again, sorry to high jack and for any thread drift, the subject of 12XX is broad and deep and pretty expansive :doh:
I would make sure that VTA, tracking force etc is set optimally, I have Adjust+ which did this for me. You dont need to spend that sort of money there are plenty of protractors of there to do this for you. Else, you need to look at tonearm and cartridge. You dont mention what amp or speakers you have, this could be another option. Mat's are a very individual taste. I have a garrard301 mat on mine and it works well. I wouldn't spend too much time agonising over record clamps and mats, whilst they work they are low down in the priority of things which could be done to a 1210. :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
05-09-2011, 20:03
I would make sure that VTA, tracking force etc is set optimally, I have Adjust+ which did this for me. You dont need to spend that sort of money there are plenty of protractors of there to do this for you. Else, you need to look at tonearm and cartridge. You dont mention what amp or speakers you have, this could be another option. Mat's are a very individual taste. I have a garrard301 mat on mine and it works well. I wouldn't spend too much time agonising over record clamps and mats, whilst they work they are low down in the priority of things which could be done to a 1210. :eyebrows:
Hey Rexton, I have VTA is set to a 't', spend literally days setting this and all other parameters as it just has to be right and my ears are mega sensitive and dont lie, I can tell to a nats :lol: hence I'm in no hurry to ditch that fantastic fly on the wheel vta adjust on the stock arm. Need it more so with the superb nude shibata stylus on the 2M Black, which is known to be very sensitive to vta even the slightest degree of inacurracy with this one results in depreciation in sound quality. My system currently sounding gorgeous after a Mike New bearing and Timestep external psu followed by a long long time setting the said vta etc, found the sweet spot and being seduced by sweet music :lolsign: Makes it all worth it - The fact you mention this shows you are both a man of experience and know the imporatnce of properly set vta within the whole set up process. As you know it can make you believe that an upgrade is crap if not set right, the slightest adjust for the better when everything falls in and you are like- WOW my system sounds amazing ;)
FYI My amp is the early 90's Technics flagship intergrated amp, very powerful but clean valve like sound - a beut' http://www.audioinfo.net/technics/suvx800.htm Bidders in droves when these appear on da bay, usually worldwide - Germany.
Speakers are the classic Mission 752's Freedom version, I would challenge anyone to find a better speaker at the price. Can be picked up on ebay for the price of a good night out - crazy !
If I try anything else it might be a 'better' psu ie: like the one Davids MRUS do for the Techy it looks quality :)
Hey Rexton, I have VTA is set to a 't', spend literally days setting this and all other parameters as it just has to be right and my ears are mega sensitive and dont lie, I can tell to a nats :lol: hence I'm in no hurry to ditch that fantastic fly on the wheel vta adjust on the stock arm. Need it more so with the superb nude shibata stylus on the 2M Black, which is known to be very sensitive to vta even the slightest degree of inacurracy with this one results in depreciation in sound quality. My system currently sounding gorgeous after a Mike New bearing and Timestep external psu followed by a long long time setting the said vta etc, found the sweet spot and being seduced by sweet music :lolsign: Makes it all worth it - The fact you mention this shows you are both a man of experience and know the imporatnce of properly set vta within the whole set up process. As you know it can make you believe that an upgrade is crap if not set right, the slightest adjust for the better when everything falls in and you are like- WOW my system sounds amazing ;)
FYI My amp is the early 90's Technics flagship intergrated amp, very powerful but clean valve like sound - a beut' http://www.audioinfo.net/technics/suvx800.htm Bidders in droves when these appear on da bay, usually worldwide - Germany.
Speakers are the classic Mission 752's Freedom version, I would challenge anyone to find a better speaker at the price. Can be picked up on ebay for the price of a good night out - crazy !
If I try anything else it might be a 'better' psu ie: like the one Davids MRUS do for the Techy it looks quality :)
When i used the 2m blue on the stock arm i had the vta dialed to zero.
RobbieGong
05-09-2011, 20:47
When i used the 2m blue on the stock arm i had the vta dialed to zero.
Yes, I had the 2M blue before the Black. The blue was good and the reason why I just had to have the Black believing that if the blue was this good then the Black was gonna be amazin' - I wasn't wrong. The shibata stylus on the Black also sits on the highly rated former Ortofon mc top dog the Jubliee and as I mentioned it is very sensitive to vta, much more so than the Blue for sure.
Hey Rexton, I have VTA is set to a 't', spend literally days setting this and all other parameters as it just has to be right and my ears are mega sensitive and dont lie, I can tell to a nats :lol: hence I'm in no hurry to ditch that fantastic fly on the wheel vta adjust on the stock arm. Need it more so with the superb nude shibata stylus on the 2M Black, which is known to be very sensitive to vta even the slightest degree of inacurracy with this one results in depreciation in sound quality. My system currently sounding gorgeous after a Mike New bearing and Timestep external psu followed by a long long time setting the said vta etc, found the sweet spot and being seduced by sweet music :lolsign: Makes it all worth it - The fact you mention this shows you are both a man of experience and know the imporatnce of properly set vta within the whole set up process. As you know it can make you believe that an upgrade is crap if not set right, the slightest adjust for the better when everything falls in and you are like- WOW my system sounds amazing ;)
FYI My amp is the early 90's Technics flagship intergrated amp, very powerful but clean valve like sound - a beut' http://www.audioinfo.net/technics/suvx800.htm Bidders in droves when these appear on da bay, usually worldwide - Germany.
Speakers are the classic Mission 752's Freedom version, I would challenge anyone to find a better speaker at the price. Can be picked up on ebay for the price of a good night out - crazy !
If I try anything else it might be a 'better' psu ie: like the one Davids MRUS do for the Techy it looks quality :)
Hmmn... Interesting comments about VTA. Do you find that you need to adjust VTA for each type of record played eg 120gm pressing versus 180/200gm ??
(I am relieved that my ears are not that sensitive !!!!)
Hmmn... Interesting comments about VTA. Do you find that you need to adjust VTA for each type of record played eg 120gm pressing versus 180/200gm ??
(I am relieved that my ears are not that sensitive !!!!)
:exactly:
IMHO this link should be compulsory reading for those contemplating infinite VTA/SRA adjustment http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html
I had a Pete Riggle VTAF on my old Origin Live rig and while it made swapping cartridges faster because it avoided the need for undoing nuts and bolts to raise/lower the arm pillar apart from very few cases (the RECA Reson being an example) I found that whatever the VTA/SRA was when the arm/headshell were horizontal was pretty much spot on :eyebrows:
Best tool I have ever bought for setting VTA/SRA is this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spirit-Level-Turntable-Tonearm-Headshell-NEW-/290599692488?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a91768c8
You can set arm horizontal (or not) and set azimuth correctly all for a tenner :)
Now I am aflicted by a tinge of OCD so the concept of VTA/SRA would have me twiddling for days but I am better now ;)
You have been warned as this way lies madness :mental:
Steve
I'd suggest this be pretty low on your list if you want an "improvement" in the performance of your TT as opposed to just "changing the sound" ;) However, I did find upgrading to linear flow cable on my old Origin Live setup was very beneficial but only after I'd attended to the other bits and bobs.
You can throw mucho dinari at an uber arm cable (excuse the mixed linguistics :rolleyes: )but no cable is going to be able to add missing information to your amp that the TT failed to retrieve from the record because of vibration, poor rotation control, mechanical noise etc etc).
The age-old upgrade hirearchy of TT - arm - cartridge and then source - amp - speakers still holds (pretty much) true.
There's lots of useful info here from folk who have travelled the path (some of us chose a slightly different one to others although the direction of travel t the cartridge and down-stream wiring i.e. the tonearm cable :)
I know this sounds very prescriptive (which it is) but that's 'cos loads of folk have contributed years of experience to produce a wealth of knowledge as to what actually works in terms of sonic benefit.
By all means change the arm cable - it will almost certainly result in a change in sound but by "following the path" you can be sure (almost) that your money will be well spent and each new upgrade will add benefit to the previous one taking you slowly but surely to vinyl nirvana. :)
Here endeth the lesson :wheniwasaboy:
Steve
Thanks for the lengthy post. I have seen the light, however whether I act upon it is another thing as this opens up a massive can of financial worms along with problems around the overall positioning & current placement of the TT.
Appreciate the response.
RobbieGong
06-09-2011, 11:21
I have read loads of stuf about VTA / SRA etc. Please note I spoke of my own experience with regard to this in the context of my experience with the
2M black which with its nude Shibata stylus is very sensitive to VTA / SRA due to the profile of it's stylus - (lots of stuf on line about this relating to the 2M black. Strangely though once I've found the sweetspot for an average size record, (not the thin or thicker ones) then the majority of records seem to also sound right) - When the Black is installed properly it sounds great and displays all the characteristics it is renowned for ie: excellent 3D and texture to instruments etc and only then have I found it does this. Others may find things not quite so set or critical with other stylus's of course. That said, proper turntable set up and that includes all that goes with that is important if your aiming to hear your deck at potentially it's sonic best. Again, all expressed is in the context of my experience with the 2M Black and is not my utterance of VTA gospel for all stylus's - dont want this thread to remain or turn into one just about VTA and / or the 2M Black.
Thanks for the lengthy post. I have seen the light, however whether I act upon it is another thing as this opens up a massive can of financial worms along with problems around the overall positioning & current placement of the TT.
Appreciate the response.
A pleasure - that's what this forum is all about - at least when/if you do decide to spend the hard earned moola you'll be able to make an informed decision (NHS speak for being happy with your purchase choice) :lolsign:
Best of luck with the project.
Steve
I believe thats a nice phono unit so if its a good price give it a go.
Got outbid on eBay but actually glad I didn’t get it as I’m on the verge of buying a new amp so that will come with phono stage anyway.
Ive tried the 2m blue, a very detailed cart but shows up surface noise badly. The red sounds like a good deal.
Looks like Red is more regarded than Blue, after having some look around.
Andris,
How much money have you got to spend?
Well, I don’t have a set budget as I’m not going to do all upgrades at once anyway. I’m prepared to spend some money but I’m sort of guy that doesn’t believe in all this crap about uber gold plated cables, etc so as long as the upgrade is reasonable and does what it supposed to do I’m happy to par with my cash.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to spend a couple of evenings reading ALL the threads on the subject and I can bet your bottom dollar 95% of what you need to know has already been discussed. :cool:
That’s a full time job to read these forums. No doubt it has been discussed umpteen times but i haven’t had a decent sleep in the last two week as I’ve been doing a lot of research and reading but I’m not any wiser, :lol:.
I agree, Mike New bearing and external psu = big change in sound
So what sort of money we are talking about to get Mike New bearing? Aslo what PSU can you guys recomend at a reasonable cost?
You dont mention what amp or speakers you have, this could be another option.
I'm very close to get a new amp and speakers. Haven't decided on the final kit but toying with the idea of Yamaha A-S1000 or A-S2000 amp and ELAC FS 189 speakers.
Wakefield Turntables
07-09-2011, 19:10
Andris,
Another good piece of advice is to upgrade slowly and see the benefits of the upgrades. I did all my upgrading at once and I think I missed out on a lot of the pleasure that an upgrade can give you. It may also save you some money. I've been lucky in that all the upgrades I've installed have, to my ears, been of some benefit. I'm a little more cautious now. The last upgrades have been some home made pure silver balanced XLR interconnects, which are just great! I recieved some silver today so I'll be making some pure silver power leads, at a much cheaper price than the crap advertised in the hifi mags. I'll be upgrading the power lead into my TimeStep PSU and also the one going into my isotek sigma mains conditioner. I want to see what effect this will have. Then if I think it's worth it I'll buy enough silver for my two speakers, my phonostage, and my preamp. Previously I'd have just bought enough silver for the all kit and had done with it. The money I'll save will probably go towards a better PSU for the 1210 at the end of September :cool:
RobbieGong
07-09-2011, 20:09
Andris,
Another good piece of advice is to upgrade slowly and see the benefits of the upgrades. I did all my upgrading at once and I think I missed out on a lot of the pleasure that an upgrade can give you. It may also save you some money. I've been lucky in that all the upgrades I've installed have, to my ears, been of some benefit. I'm a little more cautious now. The last upgrades have been some home made pure silver balanced XLR interconnects, which are just great! I recieved some silver today so I'll be making some pure silver power leads, at a much cheaper price than the crap advertised in the hifi mags. I'll be upgrading the power lead into my TimeStep PSU and also the one going into my isotek sigma mains conditioner. I want to see what effect this will have. Then if I think it's worth it I'll buy enough silver for my two speakers, my phonostage, and my preamp. Previously I'd have just bought enough silver for the all kit and had done with it. The money I'll save will probably go towards a better PSU for the 1210 at the end of September :cool:
Definately the best way to go is build up to the bigger mods as this is where you will hear the improvements as you go along and get an idea of what each bit is bringing to the table (pardun the tired pun). Also what I found is that some of the bigger mods ie: external psu and Mike New bearing really start taking you into that 'real' and not coloured presentaion of sound where the realism of each recording is heard. I found this after starting slowly ie: KAB fluid damper, decent cart, Isonoes then lastly Mike New bearing and psu together have really brought things together, changed the sound to as decribed above. This has only made me hanker now for the Mike New Platter and a better psu ie the one Davids Mains R US do for the techy - (Dont tell the wife though :eek: )
Seriously though, going slowly with the smaller mods as outlined above and by others before me will be rewarding in lot of ways and not hammer your pocket severely - I guess a 'better' mat should be included in the early stage purchases too but I've never found one I liked so still have stock mat. After this you'll probably still have the itch good and proper and look to the big ones, ie: External psu, Mike New bearing (Very good but not cheap at over £450.00ish), Platter again probably a tad more than the bearing again likely to be very good at the end of the chain but :eek: :eek: second job or credit card wacking may be required :lolsign: There'll be sleepness nights as a result of hankerings like itches you will struggle not to scratch :lolsign: Enjoy the ride ;)
FYI My amp is the early 90's Technics flagship intergrated amp, very powerful but clean valve like sound - a beut' http://www.audioinfo.net/technics/suvx800.htm Bidders in droves when these appear on da bay, usually worldwide - Germany.
Would SU-VX700 be worth considering?
RobbieGong
07-09-2011, 21:15
Would SU-VX700 be worth considering?
Hi Andris, Spooky you should ask as I had a mint SU VX700 before the 800. The 700 is lovely too and no slouch, same clean sound. The 800 though for me is superb. It has twin proffesional Oxygen free capacitors and transformers (You should see inside one - serious components inside) and although it is pushes a big 110 watt per channel at 8ohms it isn't a thumping boomy sound like some of the big 70's 80's amps. The sound is very clean and clear almost valve like, it was the flagship at the time and retailed at a good £200 more than the 700 below it to give you some idea. I just had to have one as I love the old school gear and although some people dont like equalizers (they say it introduces a degree hum) I have a very nice old school one and the 800 was the only one in the SU VX series to carry the external adapter for this which means you bassically just put the RCA's straight into it for eq rather than messing around looping through tape deck etc, very convenient indeed. I run my eq with the spectrum lights off which I find also cleans up the sound too. I set the frequencies subtley to suit my ears and room as they were meant to be used and not to push all levels right up to the top to creat one mad over emphasis of everything - love it. The 800 will also drive anything effortlessly, it is very very composed but can really go up and pump while remaining unflustered. If this one went I'd just have no hesitation in searching and waiting patiently for another -honest :). The 700 is very good too though - 90wats per channel, no light weight, I really enjoyed mine.
In your opinion, what would be a reasonable price for SU-VX700 & SU-VX800 now-a-days?
RobbieGong
08-09-2011, 11:33
In your opinion, what would be a reasonable price for SU-VX700 & SU-VX800 now-a-days?
Hi, I would pay up to £130ish for a good 700 and go up to £250 for the 800 as its hard to find the 800 in the uk. I currently have the 800 with th SL1210 mk5g. When I had my 700 it was with a totally stock S1210 mk2 and they were lovely together.
Im not familiar with that amplifier but what a spec list. A class 180w :drool:
RobbieGong
08-09-2011, 17:15
Im not familiar with that amplifier but what a spec list. A class 180w :drool:
Honestly Colin, It is a beaut. Proffessional components inside, I think Technics wernt messin' with this flagship in particular ( and even the ones below it). The tone bypass for 'pure sound' delivery shows the intent as well as the huge power supply. I expected this amp to be bassy, thumpy and weighty sounding due to its big power but it is not that kind of sound. I'd describe it again as a really clean natural and balanced sound. A great Integrated amp without a doubt with a host of features - a sought after keeper for sure :)
Hi Andris
As previously mentioned, please give us an approximate idea of budget for now and we can more effectively guide you. The upgrade options are a minefield and it's hard to develop a path that will give you good gains for little money if you don't know what's out there.
Very roughly, the hierarchy is:
mat > feet > weight/clamp > headshell > external PSU > bearing > arm > platter
The first four need not cost you much. The final four can be seriously expensive (but the potential gains are enormous).
RobbieGong
08-09-2011, 18:27
Hi Andris
As previously mentioned, please give us an approximate idea of budget for now and we can more effectively guide you. The upgrade options are a minefield and it's hard to develop a path that will give you good gains for little money if you don't know what's out there.
Very roughly, the hierarchy is:
mat > feet > weight/clamp > headshell > external PSU > bearing > arm > platter
The first four need not cost you much. The final four can be seriously expensive (but the potential gains are enormous).
Martin has expressed an excellent upgrade route here, pretty much the route I've taken, although I'll be keeping the stock arm which I like. This route has allowed me to hear what each part has added apart from the psu and Mike New bearing which I did together so the big benefit I realised at this point was joint. Hankering now to do the Mike New Platter upgrade at some point. Yes, please let us know your budget :)
As previously mentioned, please give us an approximate idea of budget for now and we can more effectively guide you.
As already stated i don't have a set budged. Because i'll be doing the upgrade in stages it shouldn't hammer my pocket. It really all depend on what money i'll have spare each month and what will be the cost of each upgrade. As i already stated as long as each upgrade does what it supposed to do i'm happy to spend the cash, as long as it’s not too extreme.
And thanks for the suggested upgrade root ;).
Wakefield Turntables
09-09-2011, 09:48
If you have no set budget then somewehere between £3K to £5K should get you an all singing all dancing 1210. This will include all the weird and wonderful upgrades that are out there. You can spend more than that but I doubt you would improve the deck anymore, you would then need to start spending money on your other bits of kit to start seeing any additional benefits.
If you have no set budget then somewehere between £3K to £5K should get you an all singing all dancing 1210.
That's what i get for saying that i have no set budget :doh::lolsign:.
Mat, feet and headshell should bring about the most cost-effective improvements. Not sure about the weight-clamp bit but I'll have to bow low to those that have used them and heard an improvement here.
Wakefield Turntables
09-09-2011, 16:30
I've never really been a big believer in head shells. I've always generally had tonearms with fixed head shells, the SME V and Technoarm. Serious money can be spent on one of these. Would it not be more benefical saving the money towards something with a fixed head shell, if thats what floats yer boat :)
I've never really been a big believer in head shells. I've always generally had tonearms with fixed head shells, the SME V and Technoarm. Serious money can be spent on one of these. Would it not be more benefical saving the money towards something with a fixed head shell, if thats what floats yer boat :)
I think, Andrew, the point is that if you have an arm with detachable headshell like the Technics one itself, you can often improve on it with the use of a 3rd party headshell. I'd say the Sumiko, at about £25, is a minimum and certainly worth the money.
I can vouch for how different ones sound and my heavyweight Dynavector 'shells sound better again than the Sumiko and far better than the cheap ones I have. Of course, they suit MC cartridges with relatively high mass. For low mass, the Ortofon wooden and Oyaide carbon fibre ones would be worth looking at.
Canetoad
09-09-2011, 17:29
I think, Andrew, the point is that if you have an arm with detachable headshell like the Technics one itself, you can often improve on it with the use of a 3rd party headshell. I'd say the Sumiko, at about £25, is a minimum and certainly worth the money.
I think you'll find they're £38 these days. :steam:
Wakefield Turntables
09-09-2011, 18:11
I think, Andrew, the point is that if you have an arm with detachable headshell like the Technics one itself, you can often improve on it with the use of a 3rd party headshell. I'd say the Sumiko, at about £25, is a minimum and certainly worth the money.
I can vouch for how different ones sound and my heavyweight Dynavector 'shells sound better again than the Sumiko and far better than the cheap ones I have. Of course, they suit MC cartridges with relatively high mass. For low mass, the Ortofon wooden and Oyaide carbon fibre ones would be woth looking at.
Blimey! You could spend years just trying to find the correct headshell :comatose: (i've wanted to you that for ages).
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Shelter 5000_2.jpg
:)
RobbieGong
10-09-2011, 12:48
Gorgeous image Martin ! You've worked wonders with your 1210. I've read good things about the Shelter. I can see that is some serious arm indeed. How does it compare against the Jelco which is the choice of quite of few of the members (I'm assuming you've heard the Jelco) also I know there are a number of purposeful looking dials attached, how easy is vta adjust ? :)
Against the Jelco 250ST there is no contest. Against the 750D I would say it's a lot closer - I've heard Marco's deck in my system and his Jelco with the Ortofon SPU is a sweet combination. The Dynavector also has more life, vivdness and dynamics than an SME IV, which I used to have.
The arm is fairly straightforward to adjust once you have a handle on it being essentially two arms with two counterweights. VTA can be adjusted on the fly by ear or, as I do, with a tiny spirit level on the headshell.
The tracking weight dial is also easy to set but I use a digital gauge for accurate setting.
. VTA can be adjusted on the fly by ear or, as I do, with a tiny spirit level on the headshell.
.
Juat got one the other day - it is a marvel but so small I am concerned about swallowing it by mistake:) Turned out my arm was no-where near level as I had it...
RobbieGong
11-09-2011, 21:53
Against the Jelco 250ST there is no contest. Against the 750D I would say it's a lot closer - I've heard Marco's deck in my system and his Jelco with the Ortofon SPU is a sweet combination. The Dynavector also has more life, vivdness and dynamics than an SME IV, which I used to have.
The arm is fairly straightforward to adjust once you have a handle on it being essentially two arms with two counterweights. VTA can be adjusted on the fly by ear or, as I do, with a tiny spirit level on the headshell.
The tracking weight dial is also easy to set but I use a digital gauge for accurate setting.
Nice ! I've not heard one but if it sounds anywhere near as good as it looks........ :)
You also have the Mike New Platter which is where I'm hoping to go next as well as a better external psu, how would you describe the Mike New Platter upgrade ie: What were the overall sonic attributes realised in your experience ?
You also have the Mike New Platter which is where I'm hoping to go next as well as a better external psu, how would you describe the Mike New Platter upgrade ie: What were the overall sonic attributes realised in your experience ?
I've written about it elsewhere in this forum. To summarise, the platter is the next big upgrade after the bearing. It has a significant, but smaller, impact on the overall sound. Comparing the MN platter and Achromat with the Technics platter and Herbies, there is a cleaning up of the midrange with greater insight and less 'shoutiness'. This is the result of a completely dead platter which doesn't ring. Detail throughout the frequency range is better defined and the background is darker with a lower noise floor.
RobbieGong
12-09-2011, 08:06
I've written about it elsewhere in this forum. To summarise, the platter is the next big upgrade after the bearing. It has a significant, but smaller, impact on the overall sound. Comparing the MN platter and Achromat with the Technics platter and Herbies, there is a cleaning up of the midrange with greater insight and less 'shoutiness'. This is the result of a completely dead platter which doesn't ring. Detail throughout the frequency range is better defined and the background is darker with a lower noise floor.
Thanks Martin, This is what I hoped you'd say. I saw Marco's views expressed on his thread about it and they sit pretty much with yours, calming down the shoutiness experienced on some tracks with the stock platter. I'm looking forward to getting one at some point, alongside a better psu like Davids Mains R Us one is gonna be around £1k :stalks: so not sure when but on the radar for sure. I still expect great results with the stock arm as my systems sounds pretty good with it at the mo. - Cheers Martin :)
so have you got that.....
just change the feet, bearing, power supply, platter, mat, arm, and wiring
.....are you saying that the only part of the SL worth keeping is the chassis ?
The chassis and motor/electronics are world class, so it's not as silly as you think. And, best of all, you can do it in steps as funds allow.
so have you got that.....
just change the feet, bearing, power supply, platter, mat, arm, and wiring
.....are you saying that the only part of the SL worth keeping is the chassis ?
Good point. :)
Is it fair to say that the Oyaide mat and weight is the step below the MN platter and in the quest for vinyl ecstasy or equal, worse , better who can say?
Interestingly for some, I will be taking my Tekkie to Whittlebury to showcase my Mk II power supply so pop round for a listen through Hamish's excellent cans, just need a phono amp now off some kind soul????
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/boni%20sept%202011/939ff944.jpg
The chassis and motor/electronics are world class, so it's not as silly as you think. And, best of all, you can do it in steps as funds allow.
Having seen your kit list you are probably more qualified to answer this than most - what percentage of the parts do you have to change before an SL1210 ceases to be an SL1210 ?
I ask this because I bought an SL Mk2 based on rave reviews but the bog standard version sounds extremely average next to the 2nd hand Gyro Se I have just bought. The would suggest that the turntables you enjoy are far, far removed from a Technics SL1210.
I had a VW Beetle. You have taken the chassis and engine and made a beach-buggie !
RobbieGong
15-09-2011, 16:36
David I want some of this MK11 power supply at some point, If it has improvements over the original techy supply you've been doing then I'm sure it will be great because the original shows some thought has gone into the design (incoporated choke etc) as well as some really top quality components. I would expect it to be an upgrade over my stock Timestep psu. Can you confirm that the Mk11 is infact a newer version of the original and what has been improved or differs ? I now you also have a demo of the original for those interested to try which I'll demo myself at some point. Will shout you in advance - Cheers :)
Having seen your kit list you are probably more qualified to answer this than most - what percentage of the parts do you have to change before an SL1210 ceases to be an SL1210 ?
I started with an SL-1210, external power supply and Jelco SA250-ST arm. That was enough to raise it well above the dark sound of the base deck. Total expenditure about £600 excluding the deck. In my mind, it was worth the money. Since then I believe my fully loaded deck has only improved in VFM compared with, say, a fully tricked out Linn or Michell.
I don't count the cartridge, step-up or phono preamp as they are required regardless of chosen deck.
David I want some of this MK11 power supply at some point, If it has improvements over the original techy supply you've been doing then I'm sure it will be great because the original shows some thought has gone into the design (incoporated choke etc) as well as some really top quality components. I would expect it to be an upgrade over my stock Timestep psu. Can you confirm that the Mk11 is infact a newer version of the original and what has been improved or differs ? I now you also have a demo of the original for those interested to try which I'll demo myself at some point. Will shout you in advance - Cheers :)
Yes it is an improvement over an already good design. There is now a small part to install inside the turntable itself, hopefully if you go to Whittlebury you can see it for yourself.
RobbieGong
15-09-2011, 20:56
Yes it is an improvement over an already good design. There is now a small part to install inside the turntable itself, hopefully if you go to Whittlebury you can see it for yourself.
Cheers David, Not sure if I'll be able to get to Whittlebury but I'll look to try out either the original or MK11 if you ever have a MK11 as demo too. As I say not sure when as I'm desperate for Mike News' Platter and one of your psu's so I'm gonna have to be patient re: funds :(
I started with an SL-1210, external power supply and Jelco SA250-ST arm. That was enough to raise it well above the dark sound of the base deck. Total expenditure about £600 excluding the deck. In my mind, it was worth the money. Since then I believe my fully loaded deck has only improved in VFM compared with, say, a fully tricked out Linn or Michell.
I don't count the cartridge, step-up or phono preamp as they are required regardless of chosen deck.
My 2nd hand Gyro cost £685 which is a lot less than this little lot -
" Technics SL-1210/Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU/MN bearing/MN platter/MN base plate/Achromat/Isonoes/ " ....plus Jelco
Please don't get me wrong. My Technics is as reliable a piece of machinery as you could wish for, but when I was listening to LP's from my youth something seemed to be "not right". The magic just wasn't there. When i got the offer of the Gyro at such a good price I thought I might as well give it a go. If I didn't like it I could sell it for more than I bought it. I now listen to vinyl all the time. Whatever was missing is back.
I would liken it to the difference between the stock CD player in my Peugeot and my Arcam CD23 in the living room. The car CD is very precise, doesn't jump when going over bumps and plays all formats, But if I want to really relax and actually hear a CD I listen to my Arcam.
Could I throw something in for consideration. I would not be surprised if your set-up didn't sound that much better than mine. BUT, you had more fun putting your's together, yours is the direct result of your endeavours and by consequence you have greater pride of ownership.
The Gyro is a fun, but in my experience slightly "swimmy" sounding deck - rather loose and possibly a touch "punch-drunk" when compared to its peers. Turning it into an orbe later all but corrects this though, so summat to aim for perhaps?
The dark sounding Techie is transformed with removing lid for playing, new mat and better feet and that's before the other costly mods. At this point, I still doubt it's much better than one of the £1K Regas in all honesty, but that's only the beginning of the journey. Remember, even the stock bearing can last for decades of domestic use if regularly lubricated..
Just my tuppence worth. If I was given the choice of a "Marco Special 1210" at £3500 or so, or an NAS Dias, which I believe now costs over £4K, I'd still have to seriously consider the hyper-techie, as it still looks neat, can probably still take its lid as dust cover and the MN bits will outlive us all :)
I agree entirely
given never ending funds I would definately want a "Marco Special" over any other turntable
but I also want my 2 weeks trekking in Nepal and to continue my mortgage payments on the little shack in Brittany
the Gyro is a more than adequate compromise :).
I agree entirely
given never ending funds I would definately want a "Marco Special" over any other turntable
but I also want my 2 weeks trekking in Nepal and to continue my mortgage payments on the little shack in Brittany
the Gyro is a more than adequate compromise :).
Then give it all the love it deserves. At least Michell are still very much in business and won't rip you off with all the add-ons :eyebrows:
" Technics SL-1210/Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU/MN bearing/MN platter/MN base plate/Achromat/Isonoes/ " ....plus Jelco
...
Could I throw something in for consideration. I would not be surprised if your set-up didn't sound that much better than mine. BUT, you had more fun putting your's together, yours is the direct result of your endeavours and by consequence you have greater pride of ownership.
Correction - I use the Dynavector arm now, which was super-expensive but a childhood dream fulfilled. No way would I try to justify the cost, but this arm is built like a (big) jewel and looks and sounds extraordinary.
As for your final statement, I couldn't agree more. Upgrading it has been great fun, even if the base-plate installation gave me heart palpitations (stripping it down, drilling the cast chassis etc.) and I do get a lot of satisfaction from listening to it.
kininigin
20-09-2011, 15:06
David I want some of this MK11 power supply at some point, If it has improvements over the original techy supply you've been doing then I'm sure it will be great because the original shows some thought has gone into the design (incoporated choke etc) as well as some really top quality components. I would expect it to be an upgrade over my stock Timestep psu. Can you confirm that the Mk11 is infact a newer version of the original and what has been improved or differs ? I now you also have a demo of the original for those interested to try which I'll demo myself at some point. Will shout you in advance - Cheers :)
Hi robert,do you still have this on loan and is there a waiting list?
I would be very interested in comparing this against the timestep,to see if it can be justified.
Have you done a comparison yet?
There is 1 unit left at the moment which I am taking to Whittlebury, it is a new one and can be heard through a top headphone system for anyone who pops round to my stand. More are due to be built when I get back next week and the offer to listen to one at home still applies to anyone who wishes it.
kininigin
20-09-2011, 15:29
Hi david,im not able to make whittlebury,but would like to try it,can you stick my name on the list :cool:
kininigin
20-09-2011, 16:18
:cool:
RobbieGong
20-09-2011, 21:07
Hi robert,do you still have this on loan and is there a waiting list?
I would be very interested in comparing this against the timestep,to see if it can be justified.
Have you done a comparison yet?
Hi Darren, I havnt had it yet but if you do get your hands on it let us know your findings over the Timestep which you currently have like myself. I'm expecting an improvement and thats not saying the Timestep is bad but overall opinion here is that it is a fairly entry level / basic psu whereas on paper Davids looks quality ! - Look forward to hearing from you when you get the chance to compare :) Btw not sure if you'll be trying the original or Davids recently upgraded MK11 version (David will probably advise), expect either will be a step up ;)
kininigin
20-09-2011, 21:24
Ahh i see,i thought you'd got it all ready.Yeah,sure will let you know what i think,but don't expect some 1000 word essay detailing every nuance between the two.It'll be more more like,mcru psu good,you go buy now,or, me hear no difference,me stick with timestep :lol:
Not sure which one david will send,but will be happy to try either one.
RobbieGong
20-09-2011, 21:30
Ahh i see,i thought you'd got it all ready.Yeah,sure will let you know what i think,but don't expect some 1000 word essay detailing every nuance between the two.It'll be more more like,mcru psu good,you go buy now,or, me hear no difference,me stick with timestep :lol:
Not sure which one david will send,but will be happy to try either one.
Ha Ha, Suits me bro !! I'm sure if your well impressed you'll squeeze in something about what improved over the Timestep ? - :please: :lolsign:
There is 1 unit left at the moment which I am taking to Whittlebury, it is a new one and can be heard through a top headphone system for anyone who pops round to my stand. More are due to be built when I get back next week and the offer to listen to one at home still applies to anyone who wishes it.
Is there anyway of comparing the sound to the internal power on your setup this weekend? I'm definitely going to be there and would love to compare.
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