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In the opinion of many experienced audio enthusiasts, there are certain basic first principles regarding getting the best sound quality possible out of any equipment.
Interestingly, some of these “first principles” get overlooked by many audiophiles who should in fact know better.
1) Power
It really doesn’t matter how much you spend on the componants if the equipment isn’t getting clean adequate power to a certain extent your wasting your money. Anybody who is interested in audio quality should invest in a dedicated main before they even consider buying “upgrade” equipment. Hi Fi forums are littered with posts regarding various mains filtering devices. I won’t say mains conditioning doesn’t work, but many have their drawbacks, and by the time you’ve invested in a couple of good quality power conditioners you may as well have spent the money on getting it right at source and have a dedicated mains installed. Even if having a dedicated main installation cost £500, imo it is probably the best audio investment you can make.
If after this you can afford or believe you need mains regeneration or a balanced power transformer I certainly wouldn’t argue but once that dedicated mains is installed everything you upgrade from then will benefit.
2) Mains Plugs and Sockets
I won’t mince my words here, IEC plugs and sockets are crap. The fact we got lumbered with them is still a great source of irritation to me. Yes you can buy some super dooper rhodium based silver plated IEC plug and socket combo, but for the price, if you couldn’t do it yourself, you could get that particular component directly wired with a top quality power cord and do away with the IEC connection altogether and have a considerable amount of cash left over. Some equipment comes with a fused socket for safety reasons but there is no reason why that fuse can’t be fitted internally and with something of better quality.
I’m totally flabbergasted at the money some spend on power connectors when surely it must be better to do away with the connection completely if possible.
I favour (and so do many other experienced audio enthusiasts) the old 15 amp, un-fused, round pin plugs and sockets in preference to any of the after market offerings. The simplest way to understand why I prefer these is to go and buy one and see how they’re built. With many of these round pin plugs and sockets, you can if you wish, have them silver or gold plated fairly easily because the pins detach.
I know a person who went a stage further and had new plug pins machined out of high grade copper and then silver plated and it still worked out cheaper than some of the audiophile products on the market.
Add to this you can pick them up for a few pounds and if necessary you can get a 30 amp variety of you’re drawing masses of current and the aftermarket audiophile offering look a lot less attractive and I certainly don’t believe they work any better.
If you fancy going right over the top then how about using pro audio and stage XLR style plugs and sockets.
It’s not that I don’t believe that power cables and plugs make any difference, far from it in fact. It’s the fact that so many audiophiles spend thousands of pounds on what are often sub standard performing, but attractive items. Spend the money on top quality cables and get rid of as many plug and socket combinations as you can.
3) Unplug It
I mean, why do they do it? You must have a mate like it, racks of kit, all on standby and all plugged into the power. Apart from the fact that it’s a waste of electricity it can greatly increase the possibility of ground loops. Only plug in what you are using at that time.
It’s not a recording studio so why risk having the same problems they have.
I agree completely with the above points, and treat the mains supply from our meter to the components as a piece of equipment, and am always looking for ways of improving this safely.
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.825628,6.220686
ursus262
31-08-2011, 06:54
I am pretty much in agreement with what has been written above. I my experience, it is the quality of the mains supply that makes the most difference, at least on my equipment.
I cannot tell you how much money I have wasted over the years swapping boxes in order to get the sound and clarity that I wanted.
With my new balanced mains transformer, my system has been given a new lease of life. A spur would help, but is not practical for cost and other reasons.
I am gradually moving away from filtered blocks, as they simply shunt the noise down to earth, moving the problems elsewhere. I am now convinced that these are not the answer and I am progressively removing them.
A number of my items, such as the TV display and the PVR are not only unearthed because they have two-core connection cable, but they also operate in the digital domain, unlike my old CRT set where filtration certainly did make a difference.
Changing power cords can make a substantial difference, unlike interconnects where I don't hear any audible difference.
Hi John,
So you reckon reckon dispensing with IEC's will make the sound better? I dis-agree as the IEC is not just to stick on the end of the cable to connect it to the equipment, some do different jobs and why would some cost £230 and even £350 each if they did not improve things? I mean no one forces anyone to buy these things do they? Also the IEC imparts a certain quality to the sound, you may change the sound by getting rid of the IEC but maybe not for the better, just different I suspect.
Hard wiring things is not practicle for most people and it always boils down to one thing, removing fuses and bypassing items that are there for safety will invalidate your insurance, there was a guy on ebay not long ago and possibly it was the same person who once phoned me to ask me to drill his plugs out with bigger holes to fit larger cable, I asked him what fuses he was using and he said none, copper bars, he was actually selling plugs on ebay with copper bars fitted as standard.
DIY as all well and good but it must remain within the realms of sanity surely?
Good post anyway and respect due for your pm to me the other day, much appreciated.
Hi John
Great post I have installed a dedicated mains supply and still found I needed balanced mains but I do live close to an industrial estate.
I not tried the round plugs but seems like something worth investigating and looks like a more cost effective solution than specialist IEC plugs I do believe the quality of connectors makes a difference to sound
hifinutt
31-08-2011, 08:23
agreed with mcru strongly on these points
Ok, I know I'm now a boring old fart, but I just plug everything in and see what it sounds like. I'f it's cr@p I change the offending item, rather than tinker with connections, foo cables and plugs and endless "tweaks" that largely change, rather than improve the sound. Been there thirty years ago and have been happy since I gave all that up :) The fact I'm getting a better and more involving sound over a wider musical taste than I ever have before must say something - IMO. And no, I've never been attracted to mains plugs costing over £200 - I ask you, have you seen the breaks/spilces and bog-standard copper used to wire to our homes, yet 1m of wanky wire and rhodium plated plugs is supposed to "cure" it all just because the foo amplifier hasn't had a properly designed power supply? Nah, do leave off :D
If however, you lot are still on that part of the HiFi journey where all this makes a fundamental difference to your enjoyment of the equipment (I was going to say "music" as well but...), then fine :lol:
Don't mind me, I'm in one of me "moods..." :mental:
Lol Dave what are you like
Hold on ... Everyone in agreement? Can't do with that!:)
A dose of healthy scepticism is called for. I suggest everyone reads this :
http://www.badscience.net/category/hi-fi/
The replies are as amusing and interesting as the article. You will, I hope, notice the good humour and good English as well as the input of electronic specialists.
I am still to be convinced - but then I am a healthy sceptic. Just to put the record straight, I have not tried the more expensive power leads myself or have wired a dedicated spur.
Yours,
Richard
Nought wong being a sceptic meanwhile I am listening to music that like having the band in my room
Ps John actually one of the biggest sceptics here so sure he will not mind your link
Hold on ... Everyone in agreement? Can't do with that!:)
A dose of healthy scepticism is called for. I suggest everyone reads this :
http://www.badscience.net/category/hi-fi/
The replies are as amusing and interesting as the article. You will, I hope, notice the good humour and good English as well as the input of electronic specialists.
I am still to be convinced - but then I am a healthy sceptic. Just to put the record straight, I have not tried the more expensive power leads myself or have wired a dedicated spur.
Yours,
Richard
Being a true sceptic is nothing to be ashamed of ;)
Ask either Mark Grant or Dave Brook at Mains Cables R Us to let you borrow a sooper dooper mains cable to play with. Either you hear a difference or not, but at least you can put your opinion across from a position of experience.
Hardwiring and all of the problems it entails has a potentially big sonic benefit, but it has to be taken seriously, and done safely. Removing all fuses and connections on it's own can be lethal if ever a fault should occur, but done as part of a complete radial spur installation with each spur on it's own correctly rated mcb, is safe, but needs to be checked by qualified electrician, who may well raise an eyebrow;-)
Connections by iec, mains plugs, etc are only there for pure convenience, to enable quick connection/ disconnection, and in a conventional ring main arrangement ( not optimum for audio) they provide safety. I have not yet but do intend to run a second spur and distribute locally from that direct to each component. I have no idea whether it will improve musical enjoyment further or not, but I can sit wondering, or find out.
Only then could I suggest that a dry connection from a high quality iec detracts or adds something to the sound, though having plenty of experience with many iec's, I remain to be convinced that they are not detrimental to the music..
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.825795,6.220590
I dunno, and heres me soldering in some mains leads into IEC connectors last weekend ;)
Not sure about the view that IEC plugs and sockets are rubbish though. The "wipers" in the female end grip quite firmly (ooohh missus) and can be tightened if necessary (mains disconnected of course :)).
I must say I like the made up mains leads by Rega and Mark Grant. The MG one for "us," is far better value (and a higher current rating I think too). Whether it's because of the higher current rating over standard leads, or the screening, or a factor of both, I don't know.
By the way, BOTH my systems use a metal cased IEC socket block and everything plugs into them. The main one's neat, has loads of inputs and for me, doesn't seem to get in the way. The Mark Grant mains lead plugs into this and replaced a short three-core 6A home made lead with an MK plug at one end and soldered into an IEC female plug.
I agree with your point 1), John, although I use a mains regenerator rather than have a dedicated spur.
As for point 2), I would add that it's a fairly simple task, if you know what you're doing, to replace the standard dual switched sockets installed in most rooms with a good quality MK unswitched dual socket. That way, you've just eliminated one switch! Also, perhaps not so obviously, an MK is a much better constructed socket than some of the no-name brands or the ones Barretts install into new homes. A further small improvement can often be gained by tightening the ring mains connections behind every socket in the house.
WARNING - don't do this unless you have a handy qualified electrician to hand or you know what you're doing.
hifinutt
31-08-2011, 17:18
Ok, I know I'm now a boring old fart, but I just plug everything in and see what it sounds like. I'f it's cr@p I change the offending item, rather than tinker with connections, foo cables and plugs and endless "tweaks" that largely change, rather than improve the sound. Been there thirty years ago and have been happy since I gave all that up :) The fact I'm getting a better and more involving sound over a wider musical taste than I ever have before must say something - IMO. And no, I've never been attracted to mains plugs costing over £200 - I ask you, have you seen the breaks/spilces and bog-standard copper used to wire to our homes, yet 1m of wanky wire and rhodium plated plugs is supposed to "cure" it all just because the foo amplifier hasn't had a properly designed power supply? Nah, do leave off :D
If however, you lot are still on that part of the HiFi journey where all this makes a fundamental difference to your enjoyment of the equipment (I was going to say "music" as well but...), then fine :lol:
Don't mind me, I'm in one of me "moods..." :mental:
you may be right but i recently added a isotek syncro dc blocker feeding my sigmas conditioner and pretty impressive improvement in sound quality
Ali Tait
31-08-2011, 17:59
You must have some dc offset on your mains then.
Being a true sceptic is nothing to be ashamed of ;)
Ask either Mark Grant or Dave Brook at Mains Cables R Us to let you borrow a sooper dooper mains cable to play with. Either you hear a difference or not, but at least you can put your opinion across from a position of experience.
Hi, true, and I had considered it. I suppose what I really need to be convinced is:
1. a report in a recognised journal of a double blind trial with a large randomised sample of people with full details of the stats test used at the end.
2. A rationalle of any effects, good and bad, written by an academic expert.
Yes, I could do it at home BUT although everyone now has heard of the placebo effect I don't think many understand or appreciate the power of it!
The link I gave you before is for Dr Ben Goldacre's "BadScience" webiste, and I think that if you look up 'placebo' on his homepage, you' ll see what I mean.
Just to give you a flavour from the medical world:
Placebo pills work best if they are large, a certain colour, come with attractive wrapping and packaging, have minuscule writing on them, an explanatory leaflet extolling their virtues, warning of side-effects etc, and, very important the kind reassuring words from a kindly expert/doctor.
So, I don't trust myself with straight AB comparisons and want it independently verified.
You will notice that I don't say that it's all mumbo-jumbo. Baconian science often starts with observations such as the improvements people have mentioned, but, to quote Dawkins here, these observations and possible reasons for such improvements clearly 'step on Science's turf'. As such they can be measured, analysed and explained. The trouble is I don't believe they have .
If anyone knows of any such trial please let us all know.
BW
Richard
I’m completely in favour of upgrading mains cable. In fact, I’m completely in favour of upgrading the complete power supply. My argument is that part of such an upgrade is to do away with as many connections as is practicable. Part of my point is buying expensive power cords and power connectors without a dedicated main supply is rather like applying a ticking plaster to a wound that requires stitches.
Underlying this argument is my preferred method of going about it and it doesn’t involve spending thousands of pounds on audiophile after market products.
Just go and buy a round pinned, un-fused, 15amp plug and the advantages I think they have over some of the after market products should become immediately clear.
Hi Dave. (MCRU) :)
No, not necessarily. What it will do is remove a connection from the chain. If you have to have such a connection for reasons of safety or convenience then perhaps a better quality connector may be worthwhile. What I’m suggesting is better not to have it at all. That way the debate concerning the possible audible effect of this connection is done with and the cost in replacing it with one of better quality is avoided.
When I was a lad, we didn’t have IEC connectors and mains leads were hard wired into a component. It seems it was considered safe enough then.
I can’t see much to argue with. In general I think most believe that the fewer connections in the chain the better. . I don’t think anyone is really going to argue with the point that electrical connections make noise.
I accept that hardwiring a mains lead may not be something everyone will feel confident about. What I’m suggesting is it could work out cheaper to get someone who is competent to do the job for less than the cost of some of the after market IEC connectors and while they’re at it, replace the cable if that person believes a better quality cable makes a difference
Rather depends on what mean by improve things. People make them because some people will buy them. Whether or not they give an audible improvement is something for the individual to decide. I’m far from convinced that a £350 IEC connector will give a sufficiently audible difference, if any at all, over a good quality standard connection. Some of them do look rather cool though.
There is nothing insane in the suggestions in my post. Fuses in mains plugs are there to protect the cable, not the component on the end of it. Provided the cable is of the correct or better specification for the task, then I consider a lack of fuse in a mains plug a negligible risk in a properly specified and correctly functioning mains supply. After all, years ago mains plugs didn’t come with inbuilt fuses and a great deal of Pro audio and stage lighting and sound equipment don’t use fuse plugs either.
Anyway Dave, unfortunately, possibly, I doubt very much what I write will stop the audiophiles buying thousands of pounds worth of after market power products and then writing on various forums about what they’ve bought, how much it cost and the improvements they hear.
General comment.
I believe most systems will benefit from a dedicated mains supply. That doesn’t mean every system will. It seems to me that one of the main battles in both the recording and replaying of audio signals is attempting to get rid of noise.
I expect there are some set ups where the freezer doesn’t pump high frequency noise back into the supply and all those SMPS gadgets we seem so fond of aren’t plugged into the same ring as the Hi FI.
Granted, dedicated mains may seem an extraordinary step to take, but when the potential benefits are considered it often works out to be the most cost effective solution to mains born noise and domestic appliance interference. Once it’s done, assuming it’s done properly, every component you connect up to it benefits.
It may seem expensive but then consider the thousands of pounds spent on audio equipment.
.
I personally won’t be adopting Dave’s (DSJR) strategy despite his 30 years experience ;) He does in fact make the perfect case for a dedicated main. When one does fit a dedicated main the whole point is to avoid
I just plug everything in and see what it sounds like. I'f it's cr@p I change the offending item, rather than tinker with connections, foo cables and plugs and endless "tweaks" that largely change, rather than improve the sound. Been there thirty years ago and have been happy since I gave all that up :) I ask you, have you seen the breaks/spilces and bog-standard copper used to wire to our homes, yet 1m of wanky wire and rhodium plated plugs is supposed to "cure" it all just because the foo amplifier hasn't had a properly designed power supply? Nah, do leave off :D
and replace it with something of better quality completely separate from the rest of the homes supply. Of course, I’m not saying Dave’s strategy of wont work, but you could spend an awful lot of money swapping components in and out in the hope that one day you get the required result :rolleyes:
My next upgrade won’t be some latest flavour of the month amp or Dac, it will be a 5 kVa balanced transformer to put on the end of my dedicated mains supply which I have finally coaxed out of a mates possession.
Once that is done hopefully what I already have will perform at its best and then I believe I will be in a far better position to properly evaluate what if anything needs changing.
Hi, true, and I had considered it. I suppose what I really need to be convinced is:
1. a report in a recognised journal of a double blind trial with a large randomised sample of people with full details of the stats test used at the end.
2. A rationalle of any effects, good and bad, written by an academic expert.
Yes, I could do it at home BUT although everyone now has heard of the placebo effect I don't think many understand or appreciate the power of it!
The link I gave you before is for Dr Ben Goldacre's "BadScience" webiste, and I think that if you look up 'placebo' on his homepage, you' ll see what I mean.
Just to give you a flavour from the medical world:
Placebo pills work best if they are large, a certain colour, come with attractive wrapping and packaging, have minuscule writing on them, an explanatory leaflet extolling their virtues, warning of side-effects etc, and, very important the kind reassuring words from a kindly expert/doctor.
So, I don't trust myself with straight AB comparisons and want it independently verified.
You will notice that I don't say that it's all mumbo-jumbo. Baconian science often starts with observations such as the improvements people have mentioned, but, to quote Dawkins here, these observations and possible reasons for such improvements clearly 'step on Science's turf'. As such they can be measured, analysed and explained. The trouble is I don't believe they have .
If anyone knows of any such trial please let us all know.
BW
Richard
I understand the placebo effect perfectly Richard and my view is that it is the wrong judgement to be using. Firstly, I know of only one documented and verified instance of pure placebo being effective on more than one instance - two in fact and that was with the subject being told a placebo had been administered on both occasions. Contrast that with my own experience which totals in the tens of thousands of trialling and testing mains cables. This also included double blind testing under controlled conditions and that proved to be entirely unreliable, whereas straight AB in random repeated order proved conclusive beyond guesswork and probability.
To the best of my knowledge THE best test of all is to be well outside of the room when the power cords are being changed by somebody else in AB sequences only. If by chance you can distinguish between the two, then go climb a mountain and seek guidance WHY that difference in sound might exist, because again to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever bothered to put that result into an objective framework, mainly because the LCR parameters are simply too primitive to reveal the answers.
If that isn't enough for you, then perhaps another forum may find the answers that you seek, because us with the golden hearing are quite content with what our senses are telling us ;)
Surely 3 men sitting on a couch (ooo errrr) listening to some cd's and picking out their favourite parts of each track (which we all must have experienced), then changing cables and listening again, in my last demo I shut up and let the other 2 speak first, both said at the same time it sounded better, one did not wait until the other had spoken.
Effem, There have so many studies to show that the placebos often have the same effect or indeed a greater effect than the trial drug.
But let's leave that.
Besides the placebo effect, the other point I was trying to make was that these sq changes must be capable of being objectively measured.
Are mains transients ( which can be measured) reflected in the power rails of the pcbs?
I did read sometime ago that in one trial the effect of changing mains leads was due to the plug being pulled out and reinserted thus removing a 'layer of oxidation' from the brass!
I am not calling all this snake oil; I am reserving my judgement until I hear some scientific evidence and some rationalle. Otherwise IMO we are no better than the New Earthers' with their magic crystals, I Ching, snake oil, magnetic bracelets, homeopathy ( don't het me started on that one. IF anyone wants a perfect example of the power of the placebo effect, look no further. Which is where we started I believe).
Bw
Richard.
Y
I think a better place to start looking is the total loop resistance of the mains circuit from the local substation to the input of your components, rather than a throwaway notion that a plug/unplug can wipe the contacts "clean". Fine when things haven't been disturbed then oxidisation removal is a POSSIBILITY, but plugging/unplugging several/many times with test mains cords shoots that idea down in flames.
The loop resistance gains some credibility if the mains fuse is substituted with a copper bar - but I never said that, because of safety concerns :eek:
No, begin the quest by believing the sooper dooper upgrade power cord is not "better", but start from the point where a standard kettle lead is total CRAP then move forward from that point and suddenly it may make some sense
Sorry, forgot to ask...
....if these changes in mains cables are so real, why do so many manufacturers supply kettle leads ( and don't tell me it's to keep costs down. Itwouldn't be worth their while)
BW
Richard
the other point I was trying to make was that these sq changes must be capable of being objectively measured.
There lies the rub. There's an awful lot that we can hear but cannot measure, at least not with the current state of the art. However, the solution is perfectly simple: use (and trust) your ears.
.
I personally won’t be adopting Dave’s (DSJR) strategy despite his 30 years experience ;) He does in fact make the perfect case for a dedicated main. When one does fit a dedicated main the whole point is to avoid
and replace it with something of better quality completely separate from the rest of the homes supply. Of course, I’m not saying Dave’s strategy of wont work, but you could spend an awful lot of money swapping components in and out in the hope that one day you get the required result :rolleyes:
My next upgrade won’t be some latest flavour of the month amp or Dac, it will be a 5 kVa balanced transformer to put on the end of my dedicated mains supply which I have finally coaxed out of a mates possession.
Once that is done hopefully what I already have will perform at its best and then I believe I will be in a far better position to properly evaluate what if anything needs changing.
If that's what you think you need, then nothing else will do for you :)
I must be deeply blessed with half decent mains here, as everything sounds so good. Either that or my ears are shot more than I thought. I could still hear Alex's Creek amp not fare too well compared to its peers last week and the difference was so marked I doubt ANY mains lead or isolation style transformer would fix it.
Anyway, my thirty years plus of experience has shown me that there is some gear out there that is good in sonics and largely immune from mains issues. I also know some gear that doesn't sound much cop in the scheme of things and is as fussy as hell on the way it's connected, as well as what it's connected to. So there :ner:
:sofa:
If that's what you think you need, then nothing else will do for you :)
I must be deeply blessed with half decent mains here, as everything sounds so good. Either that or my ears are shot more than I thought. I could still hear Alex's Creek amp not fare too well compared to its peers last week and the difference was so marked I doubt ANY mains lead or isolation style transformer would fix it.
Anyway, my thirty years plus of experience has shown me that there is some gear out there that is good in sonics and largely immune from mains issues. I also know some gear that doesn't sound much cop in the scheme of things and is as fussy as hell on the way it's connected, as well as what it's connected to. So there :ner:
:sofa:
Cant argue with any of that Dave :lol:
Fact is i wish i could just forget about all the "stuff" and get on with listening to the music; but i can't :doh:
I tried out this balanced mains transformer a while ago and, god help me, i hate having to admit it, but it did make a difference.
I cant help it Dave, honest. I've had dedicated mains in the last few places I've lived and others may "placebo" and "blind test" me as much as they like, it makes a difference and it ain't a small one either.
Bear in mind I'm as tight as a Scotsman heading towards a pub and if i could do what Ali does and bring buckets of good quality leccy back from work, I would be doing that.
Also bear in mind I'm a guy who bought a Buffalo Dac 11 largely on spec and I'm sitting here looking at it, uncased and generally unloved trying to decide whether if i chuck a couple of hundred quid at it and make it look nice its going to sound any better than my HRT Pro :(
There lies the rub. There's an awful lot that we can hear but cannot measure, at least not with the current state of the art. However, the solution is perfectly simple: use (and trust) your ears.
It is difficult I know, but (1) the human ear is not as sensitive as other animals - and we can measure the characteristics of their hearing responses.
The human ear, especially, as we age, does not have particularly great frequency range, and limited sensitivity ( a comparison with bats, cats and dogs would show what I mean). Even the all-important harmonics can be measured. I simply don't believe that at the present state of the art we lack the equipment to measure these things ( we certainly could do if it was part of the defence budget!)
(2) as in the eye/perception, it's not necessarily the sense organ involved but rather what the brain does to the incoming action potentials flowing along the auditory nerves. Now there's an area that I don't believe has had much research! anyone?
(3) in my op I was trying to say that the placebo
effect is so strong that I don't (always) trust my ears!
I'm afraid that (thankfully) we are in a situation where the whole mains cleaning issue is anti-intuitive and it is thus up to the protagonists to supplythe evidence ( but not necessarily the explanation).
Thanks,
Richard.
Animals are not connecting emotively with music - at least not on our level. Also, we can't ask them what they think.
As for evidence and explanation, I can do the former (QED in my system) but not the latter.
As fer you Mr Bonky ;)
Mains born noise not only can be measured, it has been measured If you stick a scope on a domestic power ring output and then start plugging in various appliances you can see their effect on the scope.
How much of that noise your equipment can reject is going to depend on the design of the equipment but the Hi Fi forums are full of people who can hear their freezers and SMPS through their Hi Fi so it would seem that certainly some frequencies do get shunted through some audio chains.
Whether and what type of after market mains cables and connectors help to reduce that noise is going to depend a lot on what sort of noise it is and where your equipment picks it up. If you run your broadband cable in parallel to a set of unshielded interconnects I reckon you’ll hear some pretty strange effects and you won’t need any ABX testing to be definite about the notion that its not a good idea.
Course, you could try to combat living next door to a Taxi rank centre and see how your Hi Fi sounds when the nice young lady on the mic starts chatting to the drivers :eek:
Animals are not connecting emotively with music - at least not on our level. Also, we can't ask them what they think.
As for evidence and explanation, I can do the former (QED in my system) but not the latter.
True, but there are many ways to interrogate their hearing, not only from the size of the brain and the physiology of the ears, but also from their behaviour. Of course, you are right, in the end a degree of subjectivity has to be overlain on the objective measurements ( but to a lesser extent this is true of interrogating human hearing as well).
There's some rather old and crude expts based on Pavlovian studies that, for example, can determine frequency responses and whether harmonics can be heard in other animals.
I was just making the point that our hearing, relative to some other animals, is, like our dentition and eyesight, not that special. But what would we expect? Our hearing largely evolved in African forests and grasslands and our hearing reflects the needs of hunting, escaping and mating. The fact that we can appreciate music is a wonderful extra and perhaps, because there appears to be no biological advantage in appreciating it, we are straining our hearing capacities to the limit, and hence the need for excellent forums such as these where we can discuss these subjective evaluations of such 'stress'.
Thanks,
BW
Richard.
Well, my mains must be mostly ok, because there's not much to none difference when I put "better" cables.
Or perhaps my equipment is not fussy.
Or both.
But I never tried conditioning, although better designed power supplies do make a well-noticed difference where applies.
Go figure.
Also, I know several trusted people who had a different experience (granted, in different conditions than mine, also). So imho the probability of placebo is rather low. ;)
Ah, on another subject someone mentioned homeopathy. I don't use it much myself, but I have a good example : I've had more than 20 cats in my life, and, the ONLY efficient treatment against coryza (a deadly cat virus, cousin of flu) is an homeopathy one.
Are cats subject to placebo ? ;)
WOStantonCS100
31-08-2011, 21:38
Seems as if everyone is on the same page about the mains. Certainly if one is running a valved power amp, the cleanliness and stability of the mains supply is a big (dare I say huge) issue (B+, biasing). If it's prone to fluctuation, surely the system will sound different from day to day, if not from hour to hour.
I do see the logic in both sides of the IEC discussion, as well. I've built amps both ways and I do lean toward no IEC; however, I leave the fuses in there for several reasons, none the least is, I'd rather not deal with a lawsuit or be linked to someone's death because they didn't take the proper precautions while messing about under the hood.
A while back I did some reading up on slew rates and other such things as they pertain to amplification. It's amazing what you don't know, until you know. (Just have to keep reading, I suppose.) Anyway, as far as cables are concerned, if it can be measured that more current gets thru and gets thru cleanly (in other words, the cable is not injecting nasties or causing a bottleneck of sorts)... I don't see why I wouldn't want that. Certainly, if one spends a bunch of money on a dedicated mains, it doesn't make sense to use "lamp cord", IMHO. At that point, the only remaining question is, "When you buy an upgraded cable, are you really getting an upgraded cable?" One way or the other you're paying for performance or paying for marketing.
Themis,
No evidence that cats are affected by placebos. Human most certainly can be.
There is absolutely no evidence for homeothapy working, and absolutely no scientific rationalle. See Ben Goldacre's badScience website for proof. (In one study the homeopathy protagonists asked how the 'real' scientists had mixed the water with the diluted antigen, and as they hadn't mixed it their way ( get this: the sides of the container had to be tapped with a piece of wood which was itself covered in leather...!)' they tried to dismiss it. You can imagine the mirth!
Thank God the NHS has pulled the funding for it. Homeopathy is in the same group as 'mediums', there to gain money from the weak and vulnerable.
I am not suggesting that mains conditioning ( I use this as a blanket term btw) is in the same league. I just want some evidence and I don' t see what is wrong with that. I earnestly hope that you all read the Goldacre link ( and the replies)
Perhaps I should have mentioned that I do have one of those Tacima mains units. I had obviously forgotten about it as it appears to make no difference to sq ( and I have some very decent speakers).:)
Sorry that I have strayed off topic. I am still asking,however,for a published academic study on this. It can't be hard to do. Goldacre was going to do one but I am not sure that he did in the end. If there isn't one, what may that tell us?
Thanks,
Richard
Themis,
No evidence that cats are affected by placebos. Human most certainly can be.
There is absolutely no evidence for homeothapy working, ,
Richard
Sure that cats are not affected by placebos (at least the common definition of the word).
As for evidence (that you seem to consider as absent) I gave you one. The treatment worked with ALL of my cats (which got ill) that is with more than 10 subjects. Of course I don't pretend that my story has a scientific value (as it has none ) but it cannot be due to a placebo and it statistically invalidates the null hypothesis. So it can't be a simple coincidence.
Moreover, none of the allopathy treatment ever worked (which is a normal and well expected result for a treatment against a virus).
On the other hand, I have no other valid examples, as I said, me ( and the vet) use rarely homeopathy.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that I do have one of those Tacima mains units. I had obviously forgotten about it as it appears to make no difference to sq ( and I have some very decent speakers).:)
Richard
You and me both heard no sq difference with the Tacima unit. I have a Belkin PF-30 and that has been a revelation in my system.
Ali Tait
01-09-2011, 07:05
Yes, the belkin was clearly an improvement in my system too.
I have 2 x PF30's still in the boxes un-opened, the one I used and sold on was good but I needed to use in-line mains plugs because of the way the wires leave the back of my rack, so it was either buy 5 x £88 furutech plugs (at trade of course but still a lot of money) or get rid and use something else with schuko sockets so I have a prototype nordost thor now with the back board off an aquarius and schuko sockets, dc blocking board inside and taken the valhalla cabling out and replaced it with the same cable off my ultimate power cords and yes thanks sorted now.
On the objective front, can I just point again to the investigation I did for David about non symmetric mains and its measurable effects.
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/Excelsior_White_Paper.PDF
Richard you more than welcome to hear the difference if you ever come down London Using standard mains and Balanced mains the difference is obvious in my system. But I admit this is system and area dependent.Remember you on a subjectivist site so for most of us here trusting our experiences is valid
Richard you more than welcome to hear the difference if you ever come down London Using standard mains and Balanced mains the difference is obvious in my system. But I admit this is system and area dependent.Remember you on a subjectivist site so for most of us here trusting our experiences is valid
Thanks John, that's very kind of you.
I am not rejecting the subjective view, just that I would like it backed- up by some objective measurements and a suitable explanation accepted by experts.
I am contemplating buying the Belkin unit mentioned. At £45 one can't go wrong.
For a stats test to accept or reject the Null Ho, a sample size of 30 is recognised to be the minimum. Stats don't tell us all of course and they too are subject to subjective interpretation. The best quote I've come across is:" Statistics is like a drunk leaning against a lamp-post; there for support rather than illumination".
Someone earlier linked to a research PDF he had written. I am an ex-biologist, not a physicist so I cannot say I understood it all, but thanks. ( I am on holiday in sunny France at present with no access to academic books (great!)' and trying to type on my iPad -which is somewhat limiting, so please excuse my limited replies and short-cuts).
Without wishing to be a pain:), please may I re- ask:
1. If mains leads make such a difference ( to some), why don't manufacturers include them as standard?
2. If 'mains dirt' is to be found on the input stage of the ps, what evidence is there that such dirt is to be found on the power rails of the pcbs and whether it alters the characteristics of the various components?
On another issue, if I bought the Belkin unit (btw the reviewer at TechRadar found no difference!)' would that do away with the need to throw away the various wall-mart units and replace with linear pss?
Thanks,
Richard
Oh goody, looks like the cats have left the thread and taken their homeopathic remedies and placebo studies with them :doh:
You really don’t need anyone’s scientific paper for this. The simple fact is you can hear the noise from domestic appliances through some stereo systems and noise suppression isn’t some dark art.
I'm quite frankly baffled yet again by the requirement for 'documented evidence' before accepting something, it really makes my head spin to be honest.
There's only one way and that's to try it yourself IMO - in your own room, with your own ring main (and whatever is plugged into it), with your own equipment. If you have bought a £100.00 cable and it doesn't make a £100 improvement to SQ, then don't buy it surely? Why place your trust in a published report saying "this will make a difference because . . . ". I would never invest any money in a piece of equipment without hearing it first and deciding for myself, no matter what any review told me. And with distance selling policies now, this is always possible if you buy something on-line or find a dealer who will let you take it home. I know our cable members both do sale or return and they would be happy to help for sure.
Trusting your own ears and what's in your own particular environment has got to be the deciding factor for me. I'm a real tight wad too, and won't buy anything unless I am totally happy with it - stuff goes back to sellers all the time. I just cannot grasp why another persons evidence would be the most important factor..... in fact to me it's totally nonsensical :scratch:
Sorry Richard, but I'm probably as confused as you are by an opposing view - but hey we can't all think the same way.
:cool:
Dear John and Tim,
Thanks; I am not in total disagreement with anything you said really. I am willing to give it a go ( as long as it doesn't cost too much:)).
Like you, I am a tight so and so, and don't like frittering money. So I would prefer that any exp in buying was backed up by some kind of documentary evidence, otherwise, if we go by rumours, than we are no better than the homeopath- mediums- astrologers spin- merchants, and in doing so, hold ourselves up to ridicule. The placebo effect ( sorry:)) IS a very strong one, and again, I refer all to the BadScience website and book that describes this. No mention of cats.:); remember those black triangles we all stuck on our plugs in the 70s? We were all assured they worked! People wrote in to say how they could hear an improvement in sq and ridiculed those who said
'nonsense'. There was even some pseudo-scientific drivel about how it all worked. I got mine as a free gift in one of the hi- fi mags at the time. We have been here before gentlemen and a healthy touch of scepticism ought to be the norm.
Thanks again,
Richard
On another issue, what is people's opinions on how much the human ear can be trained to hear these subtle nuances in music ( or just ' sounds')?
Thanks,
Richard
Without wishing to be a pain:), please may I re- ask:
1. If mains leads make such a difference ( to some), why don't manufacturers include them as standard?
2. If 'mains dirt' is to be found on the input stage of the ps, what evidence is there that such dirt is to be found on the power rails of the pcbs and whether it alters the characteristics of the various components?
On another issue, if I bought the Belkin unit (btw the reviewer at TechRadar found no difference!)' would that do away with the need to throw away the various wall-mart units and replace with linear pss?
Thanks,
Richard
Answer to number 1
The answer really is cost. These days it isn't designers that determine performance/price ratios it is the accountants, who sadly now dominate every aspect of business. A standard 1 metre length of mains flex with plug costs less than £0.10p whereas even a basic sooper dooper mains lead costs upwards of £20 - an accountant's nightmare in business terms because it erodes profit and I am surprised they still allow knobs, paint and such-like these days :eek:
This then also raises much concern with the objectivists who will whine that they are having to pay £19.90+ more for the product when they themselves will derive no perceived benefit from that huge expenditure. The best solution therefore is to fit an IEC socket on the rear and folks can please themselves which bit of cable they want to use - at their own expense of course.
jandl100
06-09-2011, 07:45
Yes, as Frank (effem) is too polite to point out, it really is quite naive to think that manufacturers don't cut costs as much possible by putting as cheap a component in the equipment as they can get away with, or certainly not the best for the application. There are some exceptions to this, but as a general rule it is demonstrably true. The same philosophy holds for the cables and connections that they supply with the equipment.
jandl100
06-09-2011, 07:51
On another issue, what is people's opinions on how much the human ear can be trained to hear these subtle nuances in music ( or just ' sounds')?
Thanks,
Richard
This is a bit silly, imho. We are what we are.
Just because a cheetah can run faster than a man doesn't mean that athletics competitions are a waste of time.
You simply have to make the best of what you have, and judge it in that context.
I can listen to a piece of music over an audio system and easily hear far more in the music than someone who has not had the same level of musical experience with a decent hifi system that I have.
I am perhaps missing your point?
There is a chasm of difference between "hearing" and "listening" Jerry and as we both know, there are endless permutations of those two states.
griffo104
06-09-2011, 09:32
This is a bit silly, imho. We are what we are.
Just because a cheetah can run faster than a man doesn't mean that athletics competitions are a waste of time.
You simply have to make the best of what you have, and judge it in that context.
I can listen to a piece of music over an audio system and easily hear far more in the music than someone who has not had the same level of musical experience with a decent hifi system that I have.
I am perhaps missing your point?
I have a cd somewhere, a friend currently has it and keeps telling me he will return it, that attempts to trainyou how to hear the nuances. It's very clever. It has the same piece of music over 3 tracks but each track has some of the low end frequency removed. You listen to the three tracks one after the other about three times. By the time you are listening to the third track on the third cycle, which has virtually no low end frequency at all, you find you head is filling in the gaps as your memory knows they are there. This is part of the training.
It's quite a spooky thing but it does highlight that we sometimes hear things that aren't there, especially if it's a piece of music we know inside out.
I keep nagging my mate to get the CD as someone else I know wants to try it out.
It does show you that sometimes we do hear what we want to hear and that sometimes you need to try an neutralise yourself from the familiar in order to make a better subjective opinion.
I'm not in to my measurements, I have things set up in my system because I think it sounds better that way, and they include certain interconnects and certain filters and certain isolating devices. However at present it doesn't include any after market mains cables. I'm not sure why this is at the moment, I have had them previously but decided to do away with them.
There is a chasm of difference between "hearing" and "listening" Jerry and as we both know, there are endless permutations of those two states.
Quite! :)
Marco.
On the mains lead issue, I would agree that in the mid and budget, hifi, it makes sense for manufacturers to be economical with their components, but at the high end? These sell in relatively small numbers and thus mag and www reviews become almost paramount. If the mains leads give such a benefit then surely it would be in their interest to include a better lead and ensure the fact was included in their adverts?
As to the listening/training issue, my point/question was one of an improvement of perceived sq over time (disregarding the burn-in and warm-up time). Does it happen? Can one train one's ear- brain to hear subtle nuances that were not easily perceived initially? I believe that one can ( and wonder sometimes whether the "improvements" in sq with new pieces of equipment are not PARTLY due to this rather than just burn-in).
Some, I am sure will be thinking of the phenomenon of suddenly- blinded people somehow adjusting for their loss by gradually improving their hearing etc. ( BTW this does not appear to be the case but seems sufficiently embedded in folk-lore that I just
had to use it as my example).
BW
Richard
If you are in need of a good laugh please see the following URL:
http://www.ilikejam.org/blog/audio/audiophile.html
It deals with many of the snake oil products in hifi. I wonder if mains leads are there....?
If this was my site I would make it a sticky!:)
(No comments please)
Some of the links are worth expanding.
BW
Richard
I would rather listen to music than read that lot TBH ;)
Have you ever experienced a night and day difference in sound between differing components, if you haven't I doubt a mains lead change would be perceptible? And as for magazine reviews 'becoming paramount', goodness me what a lot of tosh (IMHO) ..... why don't you just try a mains lead out and see if they make a difference :scratch:
griffo104
06-09-2011, 15:05
On the mains lead issue, I would agree that in the mid and budget, hifi, it makes sense for manufacturers to be economical with their components, but at the high end? These sell in relatively small numbers and thus mag and www reviews become almost paramount. If the mains leads give such a benefit then surely it would be in their interest to include a better lead and ensure the fact was included in their adverts?
Some brands such as Ayre, think their PSU and design handle mains problems properly so don't require filters or after market mains cables.
As for the serious highend, these will be sold in such little numbers do reviews really matter ? If you can afford £130k for a couple of Dartzeel monoblocks do you care what a review says ? surely if parting with that much money you would actually listen to them and surely any serious high end brand will sell in such small number reviews, etc.. aren't that important.
All systems differ in transparency and resolution, some have such high levels then, yes, changing a mains cable can be detected but then you also have the impact of the room's acoustics and your own hearing and understanding of what you are listening to.
the other problem then arises in the consistency of the system you are listening to. Unless you have put you own mains spur in for the hifi then there's no doubt the level coming from the hifi is inconsistent.
there's so many variables to the equation.
And while you can enjoy reading a review, it's certainly not gospel.
"... It's certainly not gospel"
Amen to that.
I know from talking to two manufactures of high-end stuff ( one for TTs, one for speakers) that reviews DO matter. The rest of your answer I don't disagree with.
Tim, please read the article. It's not that long and dispels so many of the myths.
I have said already that I am seriously thinking of aBelkin pf30 and a mains lead just to see if I can hear any difference. I can't say fairer than that surely?
If I can hear an improvement in sq rest assured I will post it! I cannot for the life of me, see what is wrong in a sceptic attitude to, what at first sight, seems anti-intuitive. I am not one of those who say ( like Lord Kelvin) that if you can't measure it then it doesn't exist. If there is an improvement then I would like ( not demand) a rational explanation that isn't covered in pseudo-scientific jargon.
Surely your view point can't be widely different surely? Isn't this really a Q of semantics? I would like a bit more objectivity than you ( and a few others). You are willing to trust your ears, and I respect that.
Yours ' in harmony'
Richard
.
What we hear is a subjective experience.
However I do think you train you ears to enjoy the prefences or bias we all have. For the ultimate judgement of music is in the live setting and that is my reference point.
I suggest perhaps find someone in your area who has some cables and try them for yourself you will either notice or difference or not.
Most of us hear use dedicaated mains cable we trust our ears. So please no more links to sites about psuedo science as we have had many circular arguments in the past and utimatly they lead nowhere.
I hope you get the Belkin power unit. it be great if you report back your findings either positive or negative if you do
griffo104
06-09-2011, 16:13
Richard, your view is interesting and it may be worth you getting a Belkin unit. I don't use the PF30 but the smaller Isolator unit and I'm not sure it makes that much difference in my system.
Looking at your system I notice you have a Linn Mimik II, a cd player I owned for many years, I tried Isol-8 Mainline, Nordost Shiva, Russ Andrews cables and various filters, etc.. and I never noticed any difference at all from them, to the point I used to use the player with the mains cable it came with.
however, the Denon DVD2900 I still own loved the Isol-8 Mainline lead, it was a serious improvement and not just subtle so there are many different experiences to be had but it's always worth trying them out for yourself.
A couple of years I attended a bake off. The owner of the house had a Trichord Dino, a phonostage I knew very well. One of the other fellows that turned up brought along the + PSU, in fact it was my old one he had previously purchased off me. We did a comparison between the Dino with the provided wallwart and then with the + PSU. The first couple of listens you couldn't really hear it but then you started to notice small subtle things, it sounded softer with the + but also more natural and not as forced. It was subtle though but once you picked up on it you could pick out which PSU was in place every time.
Was it worth the extra outlay ? Well as I mention I originally did buy it but doing this comparison I may well have saved my money and spent it elsewhere. Within in the context of the system there was no doubt an improvement but...
It's always worth experimenting but it's all down to the kit, the house, the time of the day and even your own mood.
It's well worth it though in some cases, even if it proves to yourself what you originally thought is true.
Thanks Simon for that thoughtful and sympathetic answer.
I'll give it a go....
...one last thing...., if I bought just one mains lead, into which unit would I get the most improvement do you think? In the amp?
BW
Richard.
griffo104
06-09-2011, 16:28
Thanks Simon for that thoughtful and sympathetic answer.
I'll give it a go....
...one last thing...., if I bought just one mains lead, into which unit would I get the most improvement do you think? In the amp?
BW
Richard.
Well I'm a source first guy so you can guess where I would go.
However you may find, from my expereince of the Mimik, that the amp is the natural place to start.
some cables, such as the Isol-8 one I owned, are specifically for digital components - it had big block in the middle of it with filters and stuff in it.
I've also come to the conclusion that while I use filters on my digital components I tend to avoid them on the amp.
I'm quite fortunate that my Orbe cam with the Never Connected version of the PSU and Audio Analogue Aria phonostage runs from a virtual battery (doubles up the caps and swaps once one set lose their charge) so there's never a need for anything special on these components - both of which come with these as standard so it can be done and not at silly prices either.
Thing is, most of us know the Hi Fi Industry is full of bullshit. If people want to spend thousands of pounds on cables of whichever type and they believe they’ve made a worthwhile investment then all one can do is point out another possibility.
I wouldn’t spend the amount many do on a stereo system let alon a few cables. I can’t afford to anyway and even if I could I’m too tight and always reckon, often erroneously, that I can do better, or as well, for a lot less money :eyebrows:
Some people like to buy “the best” whatever that may be and “the best” is always going to be a value ridden judgment.
A problem may arise when someone says they’re system sounds better than yours because they’ve bought these items. That pisses me off, not because it may or may not be the truth, but because I’ve then got to get a bloody sack barrow out, get a couple of mates round to help shift the gear and then go and try to show them they’re wrong; and yes I’ve done it a few times in the past :doh:
On this forum in particular “we” like to use our ears.
(I like to measure stuff, but I have to keep my head down about it).
:sofa:
You also have to bear in mind that Hi Fi forums have people who make their living selling these products and one cant really expect them to fezz up and say well actually you could do all this at a tenth of the price, or actually this product isn’t any different from a competitors.
What often gets forgotten in these discussions is that often you wont be able to tell the difference between one cable or another, but change all the cables for example and all those negligible differences may just add up to something substantial. Then of course you’re left with trying to decide whether its better, or just different.
This imo is the biggest problem. I’ve heard a lot of different but the betters are in my experience a lot harder to pin down. The reason is in fact quite simple; to be better in an objective sense one needs to know what “best” or right is.
This is one of the reasons I’m reluctant to recommend any component to any person on its sound merits and I’m flabbergasted when others do. I mean, how could they possible know. They would have to know what “right” is and have that other persons hearing. No one has got that sorted yet with regard to audio in particular.
John, I can't disagree with any of that.
Thank you.
BW
Richard
The systematic approach:
http://www.vertexaq.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=71
Some interesting PDFs from Vertex there.
jandl100
07-09-2011, 07:32
John, I can't disagree with any of that.
Thank you.
BW
Richard
Hi Richard
You obviously come from the Objectivist Camp in things hifi (and probably everything else, too!). Nowt wrong with that.
I was looking to see if you've started a thread in the Gallery section of AOS to discuss your system choices, and how you made your way to your current setup, but I couldn't find one.
I think it would be interesting if you could spare the time to do that. :)
Snake oil?
http://kevinboone.net/hifimainscables.html
http://www.lawbriefupdate.com/2011/01/13/hi-fi-supplier-made-false-claims-about-cables-according-to-asa/
Hi Richard
You obviously come from the Objectivist Camp in things hifi (and probably everything else, too!). Nowt wrong with that.
I was looking to see if you've started a thread in the Gallery section of AOS to discuss your system choices, and how you made your way to your current setup, but I couldn't find one.
I think it would be interesting if you could spare the time to do that. :)
Hi Jerry, well I spent 37 years as a Biology teacher/lecturer so I suppose I must come over as one where the objectivist viewpoint is paramount, but actually that's not the case, and I do view the subjective viewpoint as having much validity in certain circumstances. I am just returning from three weeks in Beaune - the wine capital of wine and have had many excellent wines to taste. There is an awful lot known about wine chemistry but the subjective view ow what makes a good wine wins out from the objective chemical analyses every time. I think we would all agree that love falls into a similar category. With sound, however, I think we can be alittle more objective.
I had not thought about taking pics etc of my system, partly because I didn't think anyone would be that interested, but I could do so.
I cut my teeth first on the Sinclair zx kit amps and then Amstrad, NAD and finally after a brief exp with a Lindsey-Hood design, a Sugden amp. As I am now over 60 my top-end in hearing has diminished somewhat so I prefer fairly treble-rich speakers to mate wither the relaxed sound of the amp.
BW
Richard
Reid Malenfant
07-09-2011, 20:29
lol, i'm afraid i'm with John all the way....
I'd love to do away with just about every connection i can think of & i'm gathering stuff to make a much better load of connections to mains prime :eyebrows:
I'll no longer be using any fused plugs, well that is unless they are feeding something that is unfused internally in my music room like energy saving bulbs. Anything i need to plug in will be by 15A old style plugs with no fuse! Please remember that the fuse in the plug is only there to protect the cable which connects to the equipment ;) Just about any hifi kit is internally fused (unlike white goods) so unless you plan on chewing on the cable yourself (or have mice/rats etc) then you don't strictly need the fuse in the plug...
99% of stuff will be hard wired into a load of double gang metal enclosures (i'll be using a 50A isolator so i can disconnect & wire stuff in) with cable glands feeding out to the kit that will be more permanently installed. So no plug & the connections that go along with that either. The sockets will be for testing stuff & equipment that won't be connected for long.
Every connection is a decrease in performance. All these hi end & bloody expensive plugs/sockets etc are just a way of improving things. Doing away with them altogether as John says is cheaper & even better :lol:
Off to watch a film :cool:
after a brief exp with a Lindsey-Hood design
My first amp was the Linsley-Hood 75W design from Wireless World. Lovely power amp, really nice sounding.
sq225917
07-09-2011, 22:21
Have a think about it. The IEC connection was designed to provide a single worldwide standard power connection to all electrical items rated under 16 amps. It's just there so that manufacturers don't have to wire up each product differently in each territory. Just pack them all with a 3rd party cable from a vendor who does nothing but make many different flavours of captive ended IEC leads. It's a convenience standard, not a performance upgrade over hard wiring.
If an IEC lead can better no connection then surely it would make sense to make cables just out of back to back to back to back male and female IEC sockets- curiously no one is selling that product, nor a similar loudspeaker cable made from just male and female plugs.
You all know it's true, the best connection is no connection.
I'm not saying all wiring is the same, but for me, if I could be arsed I'd remove them all.
Snake oil?
http://kevinboone.net/hifimainscables.html
http://www.lawbriefupdate.com/2011/01/13/hi-fi-supplier-made-false-claims-about-cables-according-to-asa/
Excellent!
BW
Richard
Snake oil?
http://kevinboone.net/hifimainscables.html
http://www.lawbriefupdate.com/2011/01/13/hi-fi-supplier-made-false-claims-about-cables-according-to-asa/
I read the Kevin Boone article and it is nothing more than supposition and prejudice.
As for the second link, the claims have always been misguided, it's just that someone has actually bothered to ask some awkward questions to which there are no definitive answers.
A serious professional has a well filtered and conditioned mains, afaik.
On the other hand, being a professional is not a quality assurance in itself. So... ;)
One thing that I will never understand with these articles : why do they always end up with "buy more expensive speakers" ? Why the heck a pair costing -say- 1k$ more would be "better" ?
Interesting review on subtle differences:
http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/18/05/2011/the-mains-cables-r-us-the-ultimate-power-cord/
Hi. Back fromFrance now and looking forward to the Belkin PF30 being delivered. As you know, I am a sceptic on mains' issues, but am willing to give it a go.
Now I need some advice.... To ensure I am seen to be ( relatively) impartial and neutral :), I think I will also need to get a mains cable from Mark Grant, but, which one will give me the most for my money?
Thanks,
Richard
Hi Richard,
I got a PF30 about a week ago and its made an APPRECIABLE difference in my system.
Dependant on the quality of your mains I guess, mines must have been rubbish as my system sounds noticeably better. :)
Hi Richard,
I got a PF30 about a week ago and its made an APPRECIABLE difference in my system.
Dependant on the quality of your mains I guess, mines must have been rubbish as my system sounds noticeably better. :)
Hi, thanks.
Will let you know what it does to mine. I have no idea as to the quality of my mains. Does the unit need a burn-in?
BW
Richard
Just plug the damned thing in and LEAVE IT :lol: Your ears may need to burn in, getting used to any changes you hear, but please don't fret over anything else :)
Have a think about it. The IEC connection was designed to provide a single worldwide standard power connection to all electrical items rated under 16 amps. It's just there so that manufacturers don't have to wire up each product differently in each territory. Just pack them all with a 3rd party cable from a vendor who does nothing but make many different flavours of captive ended IEC leads. It's a convenience standard, not a performance upgrade over hard wiring......
And my wonderful (to me) sounding vintage jumble is full of the darned things :D I even use an IEC distribution block as it's better made than the cheapie 6 or 8 way mains blocks out there..
Just plug the damned thing in and LEAVE IT :lol: Your ears may need to burn in, getting used to any changes you hear, but please don't fret over anything else :)
Great advice there!
Some more: ;)
Don't plug your amp into it as it flattens the sound a bit.
Plug your telly into the "high current" socket - will improve picture.
Dont fuss too much about sockets marked "audio" or "video"...
plug any switching wallwart supplies into Video and hifi sources into audio.
(the idea being keep switching supplies spereately filtered from the audio sources.)
I mucked about a bit with different ways to connect and this was the best for me.
Hi Richard,
I got a PF30 about a week ago and its made an APPRECIABLE difference in my system.
Dependant on the quality of your mains I guess, mines must have been rubbish as my system sounds noticeably better. :)
Anyone knows how the Mains Cables R Us mains cables compare to the Furutech ones SPPV wise?
Ali Tait
12-09-2011, 15:41
Great advice there!
Some more: ;)
Don't plug your amp into it as it flattens the sound a bit.
Plug your telly into the "high current" socket - will improve picture.
Dont fuss too much about sockets marked "audio" or "video"...
plug any switching wallwart supplies into Video and hifi sources into audio.
(the idea being keep switching supplies spereately filtered from the audio sources.)
I mucked about a bit with different ways to connect and this was the best for me.
Spot on, my experience also.
ursus262
12-09-2011, 16:29
Or buy a balanced mains transformer. This will give even better results, without dumping all the noise down to the earth, and then having earth noise polluting everything else.
ursus262
12-09-2011, 16:31
Just plug the damned thing in and LEAVE IT :lol: Your ears may need to burn in, getting used to any changes you hear, but please don't fret over anything else :)
An eminently sensible comment! Spot on!
The blue lights on the front are very annoying though, otherwise does the job well.
kininigin
12-09-2011, 20:02
The blue lights on the front are very annoying though, otherwise does the job well.
Which is why i cover them with red electrical tape ;) plus the ones on the beresford and on my actives,i cannot stand lights blazing at me.
The light on the croft is ok as it is recessed back from the front panel and isn't too bright.
Dingdong
29-09-2011, 14:54
My PF30 just arrived today (£55 Amazon). Plugged the pre and the cdp into it and it has made a small difference. Didn't notice the difference when the pre was plugged back into normal mains, but that might be 'cos of it's psu being some posh choke smoothed thingummy. CD sounds a bit crisper.
Happy at spending £55. After that and the new pre I'm a very, very happy chap.
Now to try some mains cable from Dave. He had some Furutech off the reel at Whittlebury I fancy trying.
Can you plug your tv into it? I found it made a nice difference to freeview tv.
Dingdong
29-09-2011, 16:14
The tv is in one corner and the hifi rack in another. I will try it later on the telly set up and see about investing in another one if it makes a difference.
My Isotek Mira does an excellent job of providing a filtered feed to the Panny plasma TV, a different feed to the Sky box and also keeping nasties away from the clean feed to the hi-fi system.
http://test.futureshop.co.uk/images/mira_xs.jpg
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