How to deal with loudness?

[magiccarpetride]

I have ditched CD players for good once I've experienced the sound quality that one can enjoy when using computer-based digital audio properly. Before that, and no matter what CD player I was using, every CD had this same sheen, making it all sound like it came form pretty much the same recording studio. Now with my Touch properly calibrated, feeding the signal via spdif into Caiman, I am noticing how each album sounds completely different, and has its own very unique character. That, to me, is a much more faithful representation of the way the music was originally recorded, mixed, and mastered. Gone is that annoying sheen that was coming from a particular brand of a CD player, and which was making everything sound so uniform.

However, all is not peachy in the land of digital audio. What really bothers me now is the DRASTIC differences in loudness that I'm experiencing from album to album. Sometimes, if I play an album at a certain satisfactory volume, and then switch to another album, I get really startled, as the loudness may appear almost doubled. This messes up with my listening enjoyment, and I was wondering if there is a way to normalize that difference, but in a non-destructive way?

[Themis]

Unfortunately, no. :(

You can use replay gain, but it messes up quality, a little.

[Stratmangler]

You need to scan your music files for replaygain, and then set up your Squeezebox Server to use the replaygain values.

If you're still stuck with Mac OS then I haven't got a clue what will perform replaygain scans.

Foobar can do it, and so can dbPoweramp.

[magiccarpetride]

You need to scan your music files for replaygain, and then set up your Squeezebox Server to use the replaygain values.

If you're still stuck with Mac OS then I haven't got a clue what will perform replaygain scans.

Foobar can do it, and so can dbPoweramp.

Thanks. This may force me to switch to Wintel. What would be the minimum configuration for a dedicated squeezebox PC server (or laptop, doesn't matter)?

[Welder]

Hi Alex :)
Hmm, interesting problem.

I must admit this irritated me for a while. Despite being into Hi Fi for many years, much like yourself Alex, this exact problem irritated me for quite a while.
I tried ear plugs, throwing a blanket over the speakers (well it works with budgerigars I’m told) I even tried running away from and back to my particular listening position to get the required decibel level.

Eventually I gave up and got a more knowledgeable mate round to help me out; well, he’s been into Hi Fi even longer than I have.

Apparently on one of the boxes there’s a largish round knob and if you turn this anticlockwise (to your left if you’re standing in front of it) the music gets quieter and if you turn the knob clockwise (to your right in same position) the music gets louder.
Tbh, I felt a bit stupid having been a Hi Fi forum contributor and proponent of file based audio for some months.

I was even more surprised when my mate explained that with my stereo there was a slightly tacky looking oblong box thingy that came with it and apparently if stuck a couple of batteries in that and pressed the appropriate buttons, the knob on the box moved by itself. It did take me a while to get the press time right but I soon learnt after one time when I pressed for too long and no sound at all was forthcoming. It was only after I had spent a few frustrating hours on the phone to my electricity company and an engineer had come round that I realized a degree of sensitivity was required. Oh well, one can’t expect to keep abreast of all the modern technology can one.

[Stratmangler]

Hi Alex :)
Hmm, interesting problem.

I must admit this irritated me for a while. Despite being into Hi Fi for many years, much like yourself Alex, this exact problem irritated me for quite a while.
I tried ear plugs, throwing a blanket over the speakers (well it works with budgerigars I’m told) I even tried running away from and back to my particular listening position to get the required decibel level.

Eventually I gave up and got a more knowledgeable mate round to help me out; well, he’s been into Hi Fi even longer than I have.

Apparently on one of the boxes there’s a largish round knob and if you turn this anticlockwise (to your left if you’re standing in front of it) the music gets quieter and if you turn the knob clockwise (to your right in same position) the music gets louder.
Tbh, I felt a bit stupid having been a Hi Fi forum contributor and proponent of file based audio for some months.

I was even more surprised when my mate explained that with my stereo there was a slightly tacky looking oblong box thingy that came with it and apparently if stuck a couple of batteries in that and pressed the appropriate buttons, the knob on the box moved by itself. It did take me a while to get the press time right but I soon learnt after one time when I pressed for too long and no sound at all was forthcoming. It was only after I had spent a few frustrating hours on the phone to my electricity company and an engineer had come round that I realized a degree of sensitivity was required. Oh well, one can’t expect to keep abreast of all the modern technology can one.

:D

[Macca]

You are a bad man John :lol:

[Tim]

:D

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex :)
Hmm, interesting problem.

I must admit this irritated me for a while. Despite being into Hi Fi for many years, much like yourself Alex, this exact problem irritated me for quite a while.
I tried ear plugs, throwing a blanket over the speakers (well it works with budgerigars I’m told) I even tried running away from and back to my particular listening position to get the required decibel level.

Eventually I gave up and got a more knowledgeable mate round to help me out; well, he’s been into Hi Fi even longer than I have.

Apparently on one of the boxes there’s a largish round knob and if you turn this anticlockwise (to your left if you’re standing in front of it) the music gets quieter and if you turn the knob clockwise (to your right in same position) the music gets louder.
Tbh, I felt a bit stupid having been a Hi Fi forum contributor and proponent of file based audio for some months.

I was even more surprised when my mate explained that with my stereo there was a slightly tacky looking oblong box thingy that came with it and apparently if stuck a couple of batteries in that and pressed the appropriate buttons, the knob on the box moved by itself. It did take me a while to get the press time right but I soon learnt after one time when I pressed for too long and no sound at all was forthcoming. It was only after I had spent a few frustrating hours on the phone to my electricity company and an engineer had come round that I realized a degree of sensitivity was required. Oh well, one can’t expect to keep abreast of all the modern technology can one.

This is a great explanation for us retards (thanks for slowing it down and toning it down), however my problem is that I don't want to regulate different levels of loudness AFTER they hit me; I'd like to prevent the louder sound ever startling me to begin with.

This is similar to the adventure I had when I was shopping for a phone that would allow me to program it so that it wouldn't ring. I'd like all calls to go directly to the voice mail, without me being aware that anyone was calling. Later on, I would check my voice mail, at my convenience (this is identical to how I use my email). But such phone apparently cannot be purchased on the market. Nevertheless, I was having trouble explaining to the sales people how I don't want to be startled by the phone ringing. Ever. Apparently, everyone else LOVES it when their phone rings.

Same is here. I may not know that the next album I'll be playing may be way louder than the one I've just finished listening to, so I don't want to pre-emptivelly lower the volume on my remote. It is only AFTER I get shocked by the much louder track that I push the volume button counter clockwise. By that time, the damage had already been done, meaning my listening enjoyment got spoiled...

[Macca]

This is similar to the adventure I had when I was shopping for a phone that would allow me to program it so that it wouldn't ring. I'd like all calls to go directly to the voice mail, without me being aware that anyone was calling. Later on, I would check my voice mail, at my convenience (this is identical to how I use my email). But such phone apparently cannot be purchased on the market. Nevertheless, I was having trouble explaining to the sales people how I don't want to be startled by the phone ringing. Ever. Apparently, everyone else LOVES it when their phone rings.

...

Just set your phone to divert to voicemail. It's not rocket science and any cellphone in the UK since at least 1995 has had that function...:scratch:

[Stratmangler]

Just set your phone to divert to voicemail. It's not rocket science and any cellphone in the UK since at least 1995 has had that function...:scratch:

I've always found that turning the bloody thing off works wonders :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Absolutely.
Far too many people are total slaves to their bloody mobile phones these days. I hate it when someone breaks off a discussion without a word (sometimes during an important business meeting) in order to take a call on their phone.

How did the world even manage to rotate before we had them?

[Welder]

Tbh Alex, despite my poor attempt at humour I am surprised you do not seem to be aware of replay gain.

Both EAC and dbpoweramp have a gain facility that can be set up in the ripping process.
I personally don’t recommend it as it tends to mess about with the rip.

Next, most music players have a replay gain facility that can be applied post rip. You can apply this to all albums, or individual tracks, or even file by file basis if you’re smart with cue sheets.

People have varying experiences with player based replay gain; some do it better than others. I do in fact use a remote control to govern the pre amp stage rather than music player based gain and I never use replay gain at the rip stage.

So, apart from using the volume control there isn’t currently a method of pre setting gain prior to replay that doesn’t at least in theory interfere with the original file presentation of the music that I’m aware of.

[Macca]

I've always found that turning the bloody thing off works wonders :eyebrows:

And even then it will automatically divert to voicemail as long as you have voice mail activated.,,

[lurcher]

Now with my Touch properly calibrated

As an aside, what does that involve?

[keiths]

The thing to be aware of is that ReplayGain doesn't change the audio data at all - it is just a gain adjustment value that is stored along with the other metadata (such as album name, song title etc). It is then up to the player to apply this gain correction on playback. So depending on your opinion on digital volume controls (and how good the implementation of digital volume control is in your player) as too how detrimental to the sound quality this will be.

[Stratmangler]

As an aside, what does that involve?

I think that might be the soundcheck mods, coupled with the dynaudiorules mods.
Haven't played with them yet.
I have this "can't be arsed chasin' the next big thing" inertia about it all.
I could be completely wrong, and might be missing out on loads, but I don't think so. I don't have audiophilia nervosa either ;)

[Ali Tait]

Chris, worth a go I think, having been used to my Touch with no mods running the Drobo in direct, and then visiting Gary, who networks his and at the time had the soundcheck mods applied, the improvement is very worthwhile. I will be applying them once I have a dedicated machine to run SC on.

[WAD62]

The thing to be aware of is that ReplayGain doesn't change the audio data at all - it is just a gain adjustment value that is stored along with the other metadata (such as album name, song title etc). It is then up to the player to apply this gain correction on playback. So depending on your opinion on digital volume controls (and how good the implementation of digital volume control is in your player) as too how detrimental to the sound quality this will be.

I've been using album/audiophile replaygain for a couple of years now and wouldn't be without it. I use it with my 3 SBs and also winamp on my PC.

I don't notice any degradation in sound quality, and started a thread on the subject in the SB forum just to check others opinions...

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85691

dBpoweramp, winamp, & foobar all offer RG processing, I use winamp as I started out using it and want to keep my values consistent. I couldn't really say which one offers the best algorithm. This can be done at ripping time or afterwards if necessary.

If you are going to use Album gain make sure you process the entire album together, as it uses the whole album as a volume benchmark, and therefore your levels will be more accurate. ;)

[Themis]

I don't notice any degradation in sound quality, and started a thread on the subject in the SB forum just to check others opinions...

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=85691

Replay gain implementation was (slightly) messing up with sound quality in SB (whatever some may think about the matter).
I have to admit I didn't test the latest versions of Squeeze Server, nor the SBT lately.
On the other hand, I can do without (as I listen mainly to whole albums), so I don't know whether I should check once more whether it has been fixed. :scratch:

[WAD62]

Replay gain implementation was (slightly) messing up with sound quality in SB (whatever some may think about the matter).
I have to admit I didn't test the latest versions of Squeeze Server, nor the SBT lately.
On the other hand, I can do without (as I listen mainly to whole albums), so I don't know whether I should check once more whether it has been fixed. :scratch:

...I just leave Album Replaygain on, with smart crossfade, so I can enjoy entire albums or playlists without any faffing about ;)

As I said earlier I really can't notice any deterioration in sound quality, and I'm still on 7.3.3 of SqueezeCenter, perhaps that's just me :)

[Themis]

As I said earlier I really can't notice any deterioration in sound quality, and I'm still on 7.3.3 of SqueezeCenter, perhaps that's just me :)
Well, if you notice no deterioration, that's all what is important, in your case. ;)

[AlexM]

Unfortunately replaygain won't deal with perception of average loudness - it is usually calculated peak to peak without any weighting based on the mean modulation level.

Of course, any mainstream music mastered over the last ten years or so will have had the crap compressed out of it, so the ratio of peak to median loudness is much smaller than for older recordings. This is very obvious on a random play of my library through the squeezebox between older and newer recordings so you will always have volume discontinuities between tracks.

I rip with both track and album gain calculated - does random play with smart gain use track or album gain?

As replaygain is applied by the player, there isn't any impact on the quality of the rip, and it can be turned on or off according to your preference.

Cheers,
Alex

[Stratmangler]

does random play with smart gain use track or album gain?

You can select which value you want to use.
If I'm doing a random track play then I select track gain.

[WAD62]

I rip with both track and album gain calculated - does random play with smart gain use track or album gain?



Alex, I think Smart Gain uses track gain if the tracks are not contiguous album tracks, otherwise it will use album gain.

I prefer to keep it at Album Gain, so that the relative volume differences between quieter and louder album tracks is still maintained, track gain is more for radio style/DJ playback...each to their own ;)

The smart crossfade works in a similar manner, again contiguous album tracks are not crossfaded, everything else is...:cool:

[electric beach]

Tbh Alex, despite my poor attempt at humour I am surprised you do not seem to be aware of replay gain.

So, apart from using the volume control there isn’t currently a method of pre setting gain prior to replay that doesn’t at least in theory interfere with the original file presentation of the music that I’m aware of.

I'm afraid the answer may be that both Replay Gain and Volume Control have been deactivated during MCR's Touch "upgrades" :confused:

[Stratmangler]

I'm afraid the answer may be that both Replay Gain and Volume Control have been deactivated during MCR's Touch "upgrades" :confused:


Good point - somewhere in the raft of "upgrades" flacs are decompressed serverside to wav and then streamed, so any replaygain tags might not work.

[electric beach]

I am noticing how each album sounds completely different, and has its own very unique character. That, to me, is a much more faithful representation

However, all is not peachy in the land of digital audio. What really bothers me now is the DRASTIC differences in loudness that I'm experiencing from album to album.

I agree that the variation can be massive and if you abandon the remote control, then a real PITA. I think I've actually learnt the volume setting for most of my favourite albums now. My loudest album sit at 9.00 on the volume control and my quietest needs 3.00, with off being 7.00 and max at 5.00 - so almost the complete preamp span. Unfortunately it's the other side of the Audio Fidelity coin - you'll be needing tone controls if your system gets much better!

I find there is a perfect volume for my room, so I think a loss from album gain fixing would be offset overall and I will try the Touch volumizer again.

[electric beach]

Good point - somewhere in the raft of "upgrades" flacs are decompressed serverside to wav and then streamed, so any replaygain tags might not work.

Chris, I couldn't get Replaygain on the Touch to work when using a USB HD directly. I didn't check any replay-thingy-box when ripping with EAC so that may explain it :doh:

One of the Soundcheck mods is to render the volume control inactive. Personally I can hear the quality difference by setting the Touch vol to max and that will do for me.

[WAD62]

One of the Soundcheck mods is to render the volume control inactive. Personally I can hear the quality difference by setting the Touch vol to max and that will do for me.

With the receivers & the SB3 there is an option to fix the volume at 100%, which renders the volume control inoperative, however ReplayGain still functions in these circumstances.

You could still apply ReplayGain to your collection by using winamp, just load your files in and apply replay gain via the 'send to - calculate replay gain' function, it'll just value a couple of tags...N.B make sure you send the whole album for best results ;)

[Stratmangler]

With the receivers & the SB3 there is an option to fix the volume at 100%, which renders the volume control inoperative, however ReplayGain still functions in these circumstances.

You can do the same with the Touch, although it requires the installation of a 3rd party plugin.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77837

[electric beach]

Chris, worth a go I think, having been used to my Touch with no mods running the Drobo in direct, and then visiting Gary, who networks his and at the time had the soundcheck mods applied, the improvement is very worthwhile. I will be applying them once I have a dedicated machine to run SC on.

Ali, I've been experimenting with these upgrade options and the jury's still out...

Either I hear things differently to others or I'm looking for different attributes. The improvements always revolve around "more detail" or "more transparency". I never see "more musical connection" or "better instrument tone". But I think these tweaks are VERY personal and system dependent.

I'm just trying the Linux adjustments and although the changes are clearly effective, I hear a negative side to their effect, namely that the dynamics are reduced considerably, the sound doesn't flow out of the speakers into the room in the same effortless way and the overall presentation becomes "locked down". Do you think this could just be because my speakers are SO dynamic and effortless that I'm hearing so easily when this is disrupted?

It's all too easy to steer a system towards having an excellent presentation, inoffensive with most recordings and immediately impressive, then being left listening to the system and shortchanged on the musical message. I've had a few experiences in the last year where I've chosen the options that were initially less obvious (maybe more 3D but less detailed or something) and then a few moves later - wow, beautiful, clean high frequencies which sound so natural and don't leave you wanting for anything, they just appear complete and strikingly realistic.

[Welder]

Ali, I've been experimenting with these upgrade options and the jury's still out...

Either I hear things differently to others or I'm looking for different attributes. The improvements always revolve around "more detail" or "more transparency". I never see "more musical connection" or "better instrument tone". But I think these tweaks are VERY personal and system dependent.

I'm just trying the Linux adjustments and although the changes are clearly effective, I hear a negative side to their effect, namely that the dynamics are reduced considerably, the sound doesn't flow out of the speakers into the room in the same effortless way and the overall presentation becomes "locked down". Do you think this could just be because my speakers are SO dynamic and effortless that I'm hearing so easily when this is disrupted?

It's all too easy to steer a system towards having an excellent presentation, inoffensive with most recordings and immediately impressive, then being left listening to the system and shortchanged on the musical message. I've had a few experiences in the last year where I've chosen the options that were initially less obvious (maybe more 3D but less detailed or something) and then a few moves later - wow, beautiful, clean high frequencies which sound so natural and don't leave you wanting for anything, they just appear complete and strikingly realistic.


Give that man a medal :)