Getting the USB audio settings right in W7

[StanleyB]

I was trying out USB audio at 96KHz but couldn't hear any sort of difference between 44.1KHz and 96KHz when I played back 96KHz files. Then purely by accident I had to go into Control Panel/Hardware and Sound/Change System Sound/ Playback. When I right clicked on the newly detected USB audio device a new panel came up. The default setting was 48KHz. The 32KHz and 96KHz were visible but not selected by default. Once I had selected 96KHz as an additional option, I went back to check out the 96KHz audio files. The results are now a lot more obvious when I switch between the 16 bit/44.1KHz test files and the 24 bit/96kHz versions.

I did the same for my X-FI PCMCIA card and noticed that it goes all the way up to 192KHz, but the default is 48KHz.

So it is well worth checking the settings on your PC if you are using a 96KHz or 192KHz capable external audio processor, and clicking on the additional frequency options if they are visible but not engaged.

[Ammonite Audio]

Alternatively, use a program like J River Media Center or Foobar, then you bypass whatever Windows wants to do.

[technobear]

Indeed. You should try ASIO4All with foobar2000 Stan :thumbsup:

[Clive]

Indeed. You should try ASIO4All with foobar2000 Stan :thumbsup:
And try WASAPI on W7 in place of ASIO4ALL.

[Ammonite Audio]

And try WASAPI on W7 in place of ASIO4ALL.

I find WASAPI is OK, as long as I'm using J River Media Center. For some reason WASAPI via Foobar does not flick my musical switch in the same way. It's weird, but I can't be arsed to understand what's going on!

[technobear]

I found that WASAPI on foobar isn't totally reliable and often skips and jumps after it's been playing a while.

No such problems with ASIO.

Everyone who enjoyed my room at Scalford this year was hearing foobar and ASIO.

[alfie2902]

Indeed. You should try ASIO4All with foobar2000 Stan :thumbsup:

ASIO4All isn't really an ASIO driver, it's an hack that uses Kernal Streaming!

So you should try Kernal Streaming plug-in in Foobar, it may sound better.

[Tim]

I found that WASAPI on foobar isn't totally reliable and often skips and jumps after it's been playing a while.
That's interesting, I have never had that so far - do you have any idea why?

[technobear]

That's interesting, I have never had that so far - do you have any idea why?

No, I have no idea. I am using the 64-bit Windows 7. That might make a difference.

I'm listening to the kernel streaming plug-in now and it sounds fine so far. It's too late in the day to start faffing about with comparisons but it doesn't sound any different at first listen.

[WAD62]

No, I have no idea. I am using the 64-bit Windows 7. That might make a difference.

I'm listening to the kernel streaming plug-in now and it sounds fine so far. It's too late in the day to start faffing about with comparisons but it doesn't sound any different at first listen.

Priority settings perhaps ? Or even buffer sizes ?

Anyway sounds like you're fixed now :)

My music PC is XP/SP3, Winamp, ASIO out, M-Audio ASIO, M-Audio 192 SPDIF, Beresford TC-7510.

So not really relevant to the original thread, however until recently I'd been using the 'DirectSound' out from winamp straight into the SPDIF of my soundcard. Initially I couldn't tell the difference between it and ASIO, but found that after I'd been browsing the internet etc. that the sound degraded. Different sample rates and mixing mean that the Kmixer gets invoked for the rest of the session.

I know the W7 audio architecture is supposed to be an improvement over XP, and likewise WASAPI over DirectSound, but I wonder if anyone else has experienced anything like this with it.

When using the ASIO out from winamp, I can not play any multimedia from the net unless winamp is closed, which gives me reassurance that the ASIO out 'locks' the soundcard, but also a reduction in functionality...which I can live with quite happily. :)

[technobear]

When using WASAPI I think you have to tell Windows to allow exclusive use of a sound device. This way, once winamp or whatever is playing, nothing else is allowed to use that device.

1. Open the 'Sound' control panel.

2. Select the device and click 'Properties'.

3. Select the 'Advanced' tab.

4. Check 'Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device'.

5. Check 'Give exclusive mode applications priority'.

6. On the drop-down select '24 bit, 96000 Hz (Studio Quality)' - or whatever your device can handle.

7. Select the 'Enhancements' tab.

8. Check 'Disable all enhancements'.

9. Click 'OK'.

:)

[WAD62]

When using WASAPI I think you have to tell Windows to allow exclusive use of a sound device. This way, once winamp or whatever is playing, nothing else is allowed to use that device.
:)

Sounds like MS have actually improved something, and that list of new parameters would explain my XP/DirectSound observations...good to know should I ever upgrade my O/S...:cool:

[Tim]

I have tried comparisons between 32bit XP with foobar/ASIO4ALL and Win7 (64bit) foobar/WASAPI. For me Win7 is the better player. I have compared foobar to J River MC with WASAPI and could not detect any difference between the two players. Foobar wins on cost, but J River is a better player visually and if you like album art and playlists it's a clear winner IMO - but as I don't use either, foobar2000 is perfect for me. I like a very minimal install with no extras at all.

[Clive]

I use an old laptop with XP as my music server, I use Foobar and ASIO4ALL. It does nothing else other than this, it boots straight into Foodbar.

There will be loads of services I can kill as this is not a general use laptop. Does anyone have advice on what to kill and how/where to kill the processes?

[Welder]

Here you go Clive :)

http://www.blackviper.com/

and

http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.07Optimisations


I will mention as well that the best Windows is no Windows when it comes to audio.
If you’re not using the computer for anything except music then I would look to getting rid of Windows altogether.


http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70052

I did eventually get this running on my laptop.
It isn’t quite as easy as the posts suggest but definitely easier than Voyage/MPD
Be great if the audio community gave this guy some support anyway.

[Welder]

Foobar wins on cost, but J River is a better player visually and if you like album art and playlists it's a clear winner IMO - but as I don't use either, foobar2000 is perfect for me. I like a very minimal install with no extras at all.

You can do an awful lot with foobar to get it to look more eye pleasing if that’s important to you.

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_ui_columns

http://www.foobar2000.org/screenshots

http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/skins/media/foobar2000/

It does all take some time and patience ;)

[Clive]

Thanks!

[technobear]

My foobar currently looks like this:

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/foobar.jpg

[bobbasrah]

If I may throw my 2 cents in from my limited experience, purely from the Windows side...

In XP on my old desktop I found that Foobar on Asio initially worked best with the USB DAC doing the D-A conversion, but passing the file through as sourced without any up-conversion.
Setting up exclusive mode was as much fun as identifying which services could be shut down without impacting the machine's primary use as a desktop. I also found Mediaportal and PureAudio attained the same sound quality while opening up simpler navigation of the libraries.

When I built the 7/64 machine I specifically selected a dual USB hub motherboardboard so that the DAC would have exclusive use of one USB hub. The DAC thereafter showed none of the effects from other devices connected to the other hub, unlike the XP/single USB scenario. As they are completely different machines and OS's however there may be other explanations.
Again, the Foobar/Asio method was tried, then the MP/PA, and the latter was used thereafter as it ticked all the boxes in terms of audio quality and user experience.
I experimented briefly trying to get the motherboard Realtek optical out to work as well, but it failed miserably despite all claims to the contrary, so I use that only for Movie audio out to the Amp which works well.

Win 7 undeniably makes control so much easier from an audio perspective, and I am sure that refinements abound without going the whole hog of a dedicated machine. However, multiple device deployment on a single USB hub seems to have been the main issue encountered so far, as I tried one hub then separates. It is nothing to do with USB power demand as the DAC has it's own PSU.

Before upgrading the DAC, I am now looking forward to trying the lastest MP incarnation to see how much better it fits with the OS and WASAPI.

[technobear]

I also found Mediaportal and PureAudio attained the same sound quality while opening up simpler navigation of the libraries.


I found Mediaportal but do you have a link for PureAudio?


Further to my previous postings, I should point out that I use a USB Galvanic Isolator:

http://electronics-shop.dk/galvanically-usb_isolation

and this does make a difference.

I should also remind that the Audiolab 8200CDQ is an ASYNCHRONOUS (:ner:) USB DAC and seems to be immune to some of the problems suffered by previous DACs. The choice of player and driver now seems to be less critical so long as the PC can keep up with the demands of the chosen software.

[bobbasrah]

Hi Chris,
I think from memory using v1.1.3 MP and the PureAudio is a plugin from the MP site. Quite an old plugin but simple and effective.

I have not downloaded or tried the new MP 1.2 version yet.

Galvanic isolation? I'll read this further out of curiosity...

To be clear, the issues over use of usb I read to be over other devices sharing a common hub.
By having a new motherboard with one onboard usb hub devoted to the DAC, and another dedicated to all the others seemed to address this. Too many usb devices this end.

[technobear]

To be clear, the issues over use of usb I read to be over other devices sharing a common hub.


The issues are two-fold.

1) A very busy hub may not have very accurate timing and this may cause lots of jitter when used with adaptive USB DACs. This is less of an issue (or maybe not an issue at all) with asynchronous USB DACs.

2) Other devices on the hub will create lots of electrical noise which can find its way onto the audio output of the DAC. The galvanic isolator stops this completely.

[slate]

The issues are two-fold.

1) A very busy hub may not have very accurate timing and this may cause lots of jitter when used with adaptive USB DACs. This is less of an issue (or maybe not an issue at all) with asynchronous USB DACs.

2) Other devices on the hub will create lots of electrical noise which can find its way onto the audio output of the DAC. The galvanic isolator stops this completely.

Speaking of DACs I noticed that you have an uDAC2. Have you seen this http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/nuforce-udac-2-drama.html

Apparently it can be a bit sensitive about the impedance of your cans

[technobear]

Speaking of DACs I noticed that you have an uDAC2. Have you seen this http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/nuforce-udac-2-drama.html

Apparently it can be a bit sensitive about the impedance of your cans

Interesting article. Yes, the uDAC-2 has some problems.

As people have said, the volume control is pants below 9 o'clock. As 10 o'clock is the highest level I can listen with the M50's, this is a bit annoying when I want to listen quietly.

The bit about clipping when fed 0dB signals is interesting. That explains why some recent CDs sound quite dire on the uDAC-2 whereas older quieter stuff sounds fine.

The uDAC-2 sounded pants with the supplied USB cable and I nearly sent it back for a refund. However, I was convinced by forum posts to try a Kimber USB cable and this turned the uDAC-2 into a completely different product.

It's no giant killer but I find it useful and acceptable when travelling with the laptop and the M50's.

[Welder]

This is my foobar config on my main Windows based PC.


http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/ddcba64b5b14d5321fd24cb44a5c348e4a12c1a708a203297a acf8e2d74c97fa2g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ibn37fb8dc8svf0&thumb=5)

[Vincent Kars]

There is a page on my website about USB settings:
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Windows/Win7/USBDAC.htm

[tannoydmt]

I haven't read all the responses so if I am duplicating another I apologise, when considering usb connections, particularly on laptops, it is important to realise that not all usb connections are created equal, you need to look in the Device Manager and USB tree and find the usb driver you are using for the particular device and see if it is suitable and configured for high speed as not all usbs are, on laptops the rear usbs are usually the best, on desktops I would think the rear ones straight off the motherboard may be best, however, I would consider it to be useful to check whatever system you are using.

[StanleyB]

IN Windows 7 the USB options in the audio hardware configuration panel will list the various USB audio speed options for the new audio hardware. It was the discovery of this configuration panel that caused me to start this thread. I discovered it after plugging in several different USB audio devices and noticed that the audio options changed right before my eyes.

[bobbasrah]

Chris - Maybe I do not quite understand all the technicalities, but I noticed slightly improved audio on plugging the DAC into a dedicated USB hub rather than share it with another device, and it is certainly an asynchronous DAC. Whatever works I guess.

Stan, I'm puzzled now or perhaps age is getting to me.... My DAC under Audio Devices I have marked as disabled, so MediaPortal has separate and sole control over it on Asio/USB away from any Windows control. I can select the DAC's audio out as RCA or optical on the amp's digital and phono inputs.
I also have the Realtek optical audio out enabled in the Audio Devices so that it can feed audio output to the amp. I understood that Win 7's audio control, however better than XP's, could still affect the audio stream. Or have I misunderstood it all?

[Vincent Kars]

If the sample rate of the audio doesn't match the sample rate as set in the audio panel, it will be re-sampled. This might affect sound quality.
By design the Win mixer converts all input to float for processing and at the end the out put is converted back to integer (16 or 24 depending on what the DAC accepts) and dithered.
This might also affect sound quality.

The trick is to use a driver like ASIO or WASAPI to bypass the mixer.
However the media player used might also implement DSP like sample rate conversion, volume control, etc and therefore apply dither as well (considered a must in case of 16 bits).
In the end the question is who did a better job, the guys programming the Win audio stack or the ones programming the media player.

[bobbasrah]

Thanks Vincent, I think you have confirmed my understanding of the two different processes concisely, in particular that the Asio/Wasapi route bypasses the Windows control which Stan was originally referring to as a constraint which he resolved.
Although the Win7 implementation is a big improvement over XP, it is an avoidable additional process assuming the DAC can itself handle 16/24bit and 44-192 via Asio/Wasapi on USB.