Tannoy Lancasters

[Ammonite Audio]

I've just collected my pair of Tannoy Lancasters, which are in good cosmetic order but I'd like to take the grille off to examine the drivers' cones. There does not seem to be an obvious way of removing the grilles, so maybe they are not removable as such? Can anyone enlighten me on this and save me from causing inadvertent damage?

Many thanks. Pics will follow when I have time.

[tannoy man]

Lucky man. you are meant to unscrew the rear panel Hugo. Are they 12", 15",
Gold or HPD?

[Marco]

Nice one, Hugo! Paul's right... You unscrew the rear panel, to access the drive units, then when inside, uncrew the drive units from the front panel, and you can then examine the cones :)

Can't wait to find out what you think of them, and also to see some piccies! :cool:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

And there's me thinking you hammer in a bolster chisel in between the grille and cabinet and lever it off, watching out you don't get splinters in your fingers..:doh:

[Ammonite Audio]

Lucky man. you are meant to unscrew the rear panel Hugo. Are they 12", 15",
Gold or HPD?

They are 15" Monitor Golds. The chap who I bought them off told me that he had got them in "a sale" in 1970, but one speaker was not working, so he took them to Tannoy who fitted two matched drivers for free. They have not been touched since.

[Ammonite Audio]

Nice one, Hugo! Paul's right... You unscrew the rear panel, to access the drive units, then when inside, uncrew the drive units from the front panel, and you can then examine the cones :)

Can't wait to find out what you think of them, and also to see some piccies! :cool:

Marco.

Yes, the back panel comes off easily and I can see bolts securing the drive units. From what I can see through the big round holes in each driver chassis, the cones seem to be in perfect nick, but I ought to take them out to be sure.

[Jonboy]

great Hugo, lovely speakers get them pics up soon

[dantheman91]

What price did you pay for them :lolsign:


Dan

[Ammonite Audio]

What price did you pay for them :lolsign:


Dan

£1810, which I reckon to be a good deal.

[dantheman91]

Fair enough mate got any pics :stalks:


Dan

[vencel]

Hello,

Sorry to interrupt your thread but I also got my Lancasters this week and I was also curious how could I check the cones. Finally I realised that the back panel can be unscrewed so I took off the back. As I can see the cones are in mint condition but since there is a green paint on the screws holding the speakers in their place, I don't want to unscrew them.
I also have 15" Golds in it. I've read somewhere that during a period Tannoy's production quality was not the very best (reference: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm) so I would like to ask what should I check in order to find out if my Golds are OK or not. Also this link mentions the crossover part values might not be correct (due to age).
They sound very nice, but I would like to make sure that my Lancaster sound at their best.

Thanks for your help!

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi László

The Tannoy quality problems mentioned followed their move to Scotland from London and (if I'm correct) refer to the HPD series, not the Monitor Golds. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm confident that in the early 70s, Tannoy were at their best.

I too have read quite a lot about crossover values. Marco has recommended to me that I live with the Lancasters as they are before fiddling with anything, and I shall do just that. It is very likely, however, that old electrolytic capacitors in the crossover are now very tired and will need replacing. Whether the crossover circuit needs tweaking remains to be seen (or rather heard). I took a quick look at one of the crossover boxes, but was unable to get the top of the plastic case off to see inside, but perhaps a bit more force is required.

One thing I noticed when taking the back off one of my Lancasters is that there is a piece of plywood covering the aperiodic vent on the front panel, making them true sealed boxes. Does anyone know if this applies to all Lancasters, or whether they are intended to be vented?

[RochaCullen]

Just spotted these on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Berkeley-Speaker-15-Monitor-Gold-/120767124426?_trksid=e11010.m8&_trkparms=algo%3DMW%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCC%26 otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2306094219798054443

[vencel]

Hello Hugo,

I also have the same Lancaster enclosure and I was advised to leave it closed as the closed box sounds better. As I know Tannoy made these boxes in 2 versions: vented and closed. I think they started with the vented version and then they covered the opening to make it closed. Probably they had many enclosures already manufactured with a vent so they just simple covered the vents :-)

I will try to open the crossover to check the pats in it because I also think that some of the caps might get out of tolerance.
It would be nice to know which components are suggested to be changed and what replacement caps did other people used and suggest.

I have a very dumb question: why do these Tannoys have the TREBLE roll-off and energy level setting? I tried them but I am not confident if I should regularly adjust them according to the recording I am listening or I should only adjust it once to my amplifier and to my liking and then I should leave it on that level?

Regards,
László

[Ammonite Audio]

I have a very dumb question: why do these Tannoys have the TREBLE roll-off and energy level setting? I tried them but I am not confident if I should regularly adjust them according to the recording I am listening or I should only adjust it once to my amplifier and to my liking and then I should leave it on that level?

Regards,
László

I reckon that you should find the settings that sound good and leave them that way; otherwise constant adjustment will just get in the way of listening to the music!

[Marco]

So what's the verdict, mate? We're on tenderhooks here!! :eek:

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Marco

None of my speaker cables will fit the sprung bare wire connections on the back of the Lancasters, so I am going to make up some 4mm banana plug adapters, just to get going. I do have some reasonable quality 4mm binding posts, so I shall install those on the back panel at some point - it almost seems a shame to disturb the incredibly tidy acoustic wadding stapled to the back panel. All of this means that I've not yet had a chance to do any listening, but maybe later today!

[Ammonite Audio]

I have made up the wiring adapters using some Kimber TCX and connected the Lancasters up to the system. Notwithstanding the fact the soldering on my adapters needs a few hours to 'settle down' sonically, the Lancasters do come across as a bit thick sounding; certainly not as musically fleet of foot as the Avalons. There is no shortage of treble energy and some twiddling of the treble controls may be required. Raising them up off the carpet may help with the 'plodding' sound and I will try redeploying the Stillpoints Component Stands from the Avalons. I think it's highly likely that crossover tweaks will improve them, but time will tell.

[vencel]

I have made up the wiring adapters using some Kimber TCX and connected the Lancasters up to the system. Notwithstanding the fact the soldering on my adapters needs a few hours to 'settle down' sonically, the Lancasters do come across as a bit thick sounding; certainly not as musically fleet of foot as the Avalons. There is no shortage of treble energy and some twiddling of the treble controls may be required. Raising them up off the carpet may help with the 'plodding' sound and I will try redeploying the Stillpoints Component Stands from the Avalons. I think it's highly likely that crossover tweaks will improve them, but time will tell.

Hello,

I thought you will write about jawdropping experience when you first listen to your Tannoys. May I ask what kind of amp do you use it with? I am curious about your impressions after lifting them up a bit from the floor.
I have a friend who uses them with 211 tube amp but I will use them with a LM3875 amp (modified Gaincard clone) as soon as I finish it and 6072A tube preamp before it.

Regards,
Vencel

[Marco]

Hi Hugo,

I think that you will need to get them up off of the floor, like I said on the phone. The problem with Lancasters is that they're a kind of halfway house between large stand-mounts and floor-standers, and were designed in the days before speaker stands were considered de rigueur.

For crossover mods, here are some pics of the ones I had designed for my Lockwoods:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7940/img02573.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/img02573.jpg/)

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1408/img02581.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/img02581.jpg/)

Circuit diagram to achieve the above, here: http://www.guitars-of-love.com/tannoy15goldcrossovermods.htm

Marco.

[vencel]

I don't want to be stroppy but if there are so many issues with the Tannoy 15" Golds and in particular with the Lancasters, why so many people are interested in buying them and why are the prices are so high?
I know that lifting them up from the floor improves the sound but mine were sounding really nice with my friends 211 tube amp when I tried them before buying.
Naturally I agree that their sound can be improved (that's also suggested by Troels Gravesen here: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/MG15XO-up-grade.htm), but I think that the sound of the untouched Lancaster is beautiful. On the long run of courser I am also planning to change some of the crossover parts even though I don't really want to drill any holes in the crossover box to take it apart.
Did any of you tried Troels' crossover design?

[vencel]

Hello Marco,

Did you check the value of the original capacitors before replacing them? I've read on Troels' page that some were labelled as 16uF but they were 32uF when measuring them.

When I decided to tune the crossover I will definitely check the values :-)

Regards,
Vecncel

[vencel]

One more thing. Someone told me that it would be worth trying Tannoy Silver's crossover design with the Golds. I guess it would need slight modifications but I would be curios how the Golds would sound with the Silver's crossover.

Did any of you have the possibility to compare the Silver with the Golds?
I know the Silvers and Reds are more rare and they go for more money but are they that better?

[Marco]

Hi László,

Did you not click the link I posted to the circuit diagram I used? If you had done, you'd have noticed that it was Troels' ;)

And it works a treat! But I chose my own components....

As for "problems" with Monitor Golds, well no speakers are perfect, and of course it's all down to personal taste. Some people like the sound of Lancasters 'as is', and others will want to 'modernise' their presentation.

Also, some Monitor Gold drive units were better matched with their original crossovers than others, and better pair matched too, and some components in the original crossovers will be running at closer to their original specification than others - all of which means that the performance of any given pair of Lancasters (or any vintage Tannoys) will vary depending on all of the above :)

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

László

I think that the issue is really that these old speakers do need a bit of updating, particularly in the crossovers. After all, you would expect electrolytic capacitors in a 40 year old amp to need changing, so the same must apply to speakers. I shall certainly put in some good polypropylene caps but whether I change the entire circuit is something to think about. I don't want to change the cabinets because they're such a handy size and do not dominate a room.

I think that the prices are so high simply because of the Monitor Gold drive units. Having heard Marco's Lockwood Majors and Montesquieu's, both of which are in pretty large enclosures, I can hear the potential of these drivers. Both have been 'breathed upon' though.

My amplification is shown below in my signature.


Marco

I'm sure you're right about lifting them up a tad. The Stillpoints Component stands will only lift them by around 70mm because of the recessed plinth at the base of the speakers, but that should be enough to make a difference.

[vencel]

Hello Marco,

I opened and read this link from your post (http://www.guitars-of-love.com/tannoy15goldcrossovermods.htm) but I did not realize it is Troels'.
I totally agree with you about Golds sound and people's taste but so far I've read more negative opinions than positive.

Could you share with me what components did you use? Did you also try brands suggested by Troels?

[Marco]

Hi László,


Did you check the value of the original capacitors before replacing them?


Yup! :)


I know the Silvers and Reds are more rare and they go for more money but are they that better?


Well, "better" is of course highly subjective... However, in my opinion, they're certainly better through the presence region in the crucial midrange (in fact, utterly magical there), but Silvers don't have much bottom end, even 15" ones (as they weren't really designed for the rock and pop era), although Reds fare rather better in that respect, but don't do really deep bass, like Golds.

However, the price one pays on eBay, and such like, for Reds and Silvers is probably more to do with rarity value and collectability, than anything else!

Marco.

[vencel]

László

I think that the prices are so high simply because of the Monitor Gold drive units. Having heard Marco's Lockwood Majors and Montesquieu's, both of which are in pretty large enclosures, I can hear the potential of these drivers. Both have been 'breathed upon' though.



This means sooner or later I should also invest in one of these Lockwood cabinets?! I was asking around which enclosure is mostly suggested for the Tannoy 15" Golds but I did not receive any definite answer.

Marco,
Could you maybe send me some photos of your Lockwood Majors and maybe a plan for it? Are these Lockwoods also use the 15" Gold?
I would really appreciate that.

[Marco]

See my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12937 :)

As for plans... I bought my Lockwood Majors as complete units with 15" Monitor Reds inside (later swapped for Golds), but if you contact Roger at Lockwood, he should be able to advise:

http://www.lockwoodaudio.co.uk/

He's extremely approachable and helpful, so don't be afraid to contact him! :cool:

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

OK - some pictures:

http://i55.tinypic.com/b9egox.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/30licuh.jpg

And a view of a Stillpoints Component Stand supporting the Lancasters:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2dhwmy0.jpg

Lifting the Lancasters up a bit has improved the sound, but there is clearly much more to be had. When stoked up (they are relatively inefficient compared to the Avalons) there is quite a lot of heft to kick drums etc but the whole lacks musicality against the Avalons. It feels like they don't "breathe' particularly well. The Sinatra LP that I took over to Martin's last week is not particularly engaging played through the Lancasters and I have an unpleasant feeling that the Monitor Golds really need a bigger enclosure like Marco's Lockwoods or Tom's GRFs - greater size is the one parameter that I cannot accommodate.

[Marco]

Don't give up yet, Hugo! I don't think that it's necessarily a cabinet size thing....

Sounds like your Golds are a bit like mine were when I got them, before I upgraded the crossovers, which totally transformed them. There's no way I could've lived with them as standard, as they sounded rather 'tubby' and euphonically old-fashioned, so there's LOADS more to come yet!! :)

I'd recommend using the circuit diagram I linked to earlier - I can advise on components if necessary.

One other major sonic advantage I found, which can be done at the same time as a crossover upgrade, was removing the treble controls and hard-wiring the drive units directly in the 'flat' position, thereby doing away with not only the associated switches and extra contacts the audio signal has to navigate, but (in my experience) the sonically degrading plugs, connecting the crossovers to the drive units.

You have to remove the gold back caps to get at the bits you need, in order to carry out this mod.

Here's what my MGs look like, hard-wired with high quality VDH cable (CS-14 Hybrid):

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8247/img0261gq.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/img0261gq.jpg/)

Marco.

[tannoy man]

Hi Hugo, have you removed the panels that cover the ports? in my experience
they Breathe better once this is done

[Ammonite Audio]

Paul

No, I haven't done anything yet, so I'll try that since it seems to be a matter of simply unscrewing the blanking panel covering the port. I want to take the drive units out for an inspection anyway.

I've been looking at the various Monitor Gold web resources and a plan is coming together to make up some completely new crossovers, in order to leave the existing ones original and unmolested. I was pleased to see that Falcon Acoustics are very much still trading, and good quality inductors and capacitors need not cost the earth. Most of the crossover mods seem to retain the treble section transformer, but I see from Marco's picture that his bespoke crossovers have done away with it - if anyone can help with recommended component values for the treble section, I'd be grateful.

[Marco]

Hi Hugo,

I didn't experiment with retaining the transformers, as when I heard the veritable 'night & day' difference between the bespoke crossovers I had made, compared to the original ones, I simply 'binned' the latter (returned them to Chris at Big Ears), transformers included.

Therefore, there may be some mileage in retaining the transformers, and indeed possibly sonic advantages in doing so. Of course, the opposite could also be true - it's simply a matter of 'suck it and see'....

Good luck, anyway! I shall follow your experiments with interest :)

Marco.

[vencel]

Paul

No, I haven't done anything yet, so I'll try that since it seems to be a matter of simply unscrewing the blanking panel covering the port. I want to take the drive units out for an inspection anyway.

I've been looking at the various Monitor Gold web resources and a plan is coming together to make up some completely new crossovers, in order to leave the existing ones original and unmolested. I was pleased to see that Falcon Acoustics are very much still trading, and good quality inductors and capacitors need not cost the earth. Most of the crossover mods seem to retain the treble section transformer, but I see from Marco's picture that his bespoke crossovers have done away with it - if anyone can help with recommended component values for the treble section, I'd be grateful.

Hello Shuggie,

I would be very interested in your "experiments" as I might also decided to do some modifications if the difference is that big.
I will follow this thread but I would be very grateful if you could inform me in a PM about anything you find out during your experiments.

Thanks in advance!
Vencel

[Ammonite Audio]

Here are some pictures of the Monitor Gold drivers, which are in perfect nick:

http://i51.tinypic.com/sxhqc3.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2aj6na9.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lwkqap.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/11i08hw.jpg

The bit of plywood blocking the aperiodic vent has been glued in place, so I cannot remove it, which is a shame. Similarly, the grille cloth cannot be removed without destroying it - I do reckon replacing it with something rather more acoustically transparent would be beneficial, but I'm not going to butcher the cabinets.

[tannoy man]

Hugo, the vent boards come off easily, just lever them off with a chisel or
screwdriver, you wont be sorry

[vencel]

Nice speakers :-) I was shocked when I saw mine after getting them. I knew they are big but in reality they are bigger :-)

I have to get a new went board because the original owner driller in them a hole for an additional tweeter. I don't know why, he must be some strange guy. He placed a Philips tweeter but did not connect it to the crossover. He connected it to the speaker terminals with a separate wire.

May I ask how can anyone decide it the Golds have original cones or if they'd been reconed?

Regards,
Vencel

[Ammonite Audio]

Hugo, the vent boards come off easily, just lever them off with a chisel or
screwdriver, you wont be sorry

I have removed the blanking boards, but they will be going straight back on! The bass is really soggy and bloated without them in place and the Lancasters are pretty much unlistenable in that state.

For the last 2 days I've been listening to the Avalons and it's rather a shock to revisit the Tannoys whose top end is really rather splashy in comparison. I'm thinking that aged components in the crossover are probably to blame for the splashiness, since neither Marco's nor Tom's Tannoys can be described as splashy.

I do wonder if there is too much damping in the Lancaster enclosure - the thick pillows of wool do take up quite a bit of cabinet volume, and I'm wondering if stiffening the cabinet with internal bracing and applying rather less overall damping would be beneficial. The Lancaster enclosure is probably just too small for 15" Monitor Golds, so liberating several litres of extra volume should be an improvement, methinks.

[The Black Adder]

I have found that the Lancasters are not really good for the 15" golds. Apparently (and this is just what I've heard) the fitting of the 15" Golds to the Lancaster cabinets is what gave the Lancs a bad name. Tannoy then made the 12" Golds, fitted them in the Lancs and opened up the front as a reflex and bobs ya uncle, a wonderfully sounding speaker (I can vouch for this).

So basically the 15 is too much of a bigger speaker for the Lancs cabs so they say.

To brace up a Lancaster box I would have some granite cut and drilled, attach it to the bottom. Again a slab on the top. For the back I am struggling to think of what to do here because of the sheer size of the back board. No matter what you put here I think that it will still flex. Some more granite... YEAH! LOL...

[Ammonite Audio]

My mate Tony came over to hear the Lancasters and we tinkered a bit before he suggested that I move the speakers as far apart as possible in my room. To my surprise, that made quite a difference - the Lancasters still have a bit of that 'plodding' character, but it's reduced and there is a much better soundstage and more believable top end. So, I have spent the last few hours carefully dismantling the system, dusting and hoovering everything, and rearranging the rack, furniture etc. To be fair, it was worth it for the Spring Clean!

So, the next step is to make up some replacement crossovers and to rewire the speakers internally. I am trying to find out the optimum value of the main HF section inductor, but all the other bits are reasonably inexpensive from Falcon Acoustics.

[chelsea]

Makes me want to get some 15" hpd's.

Hopefully one day.

[Ammonite Audio]

I've now ordered the parts from Falcon Acoustics for a pair of new crossovers for the Lancasters, so things are moving on! To keep costs down, the main LF section series inductor is a high-power iron-dust cored component, which prior experience tells me is usually nice sounding, with very good dynamics. The HF section inductors are air-cored. Capacitors are Claritycap ESA, chosen more for their modest cost than anything else; resistors are cheapo wirewounds, which may get changed for something more exotic if the overall voicing etc is OK with the values chosen. Internal wiring will use Audio Note AN-D, again largely because of its modest cost.

[Ali Tait]

The Clarity Caps are very good, regardless of cost IMHO.

[Marco]

Nice one, Hugo. You've done the right thing, mate. Best to choose modest priced components for the crossovers to see whether you can get the voicing right first, before splashing out on more expensive ones.

However, what you've bought is more than decent, so I'm expecting the results to be pretty good and for there to be a significant sonic improvement :)

Good luck and keep us posted :cool:

Marco.

[Jonboy]

Just found these 12 inch in Lancasters

http://www.hifiworks.co.uk/speaker5.htm

[dantheman91]

Just found these 12 inch in Lancasters

http://www.hifiworks.co.uk/speaker5.htm

Hi

Not sure if there a matching pair though because one has terminals and one dosent :scratch:

although most of the lancasters wernt a matching pair

Dan

[Ammonite Audio]

I know that I paid around the going rate for my 15" Lancasters, but these 12" ones do look a tad underpriced, particularly when you see what Lancs fitted with HPD drivers are going for at HiFi Do in Japan (http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWTannoy/G0201/P0/A10/E/0-10/S0/C11-59189-06245-00/)

If the drivers are good, then someone should snap these !2" Lancasters up!

[vencel]

I know that I paid around the going rate for my 15" Lancasters, but these 12" ones do look a tad underpriced, particularly when you see what Lancs fitted with HPD drivers are going for at HiFi Do in Japan (http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWTannoy/G0201/P0/A10/E/0-10/S0/C11-59189-06245-00/)

If the drivers are good, then someone should snap these !2" Lancasters up!

I paid GBP 1130 for my Lancasters so I think I got a god deal on them. Naturally the crossover needs to be seviced so I am curious about Shuggies findings. I also plan to replace the internal wire to AN or Kondo. I would prefer the Kondo but they are quite expensive so it would be a bit risky (financially) to experiment with them.
First I am going to upgrade the crossover, then the internal wiring.

[vencel]

A photo of the crossover of my Lancasters.
The 16uF capacitor measures 22,6uF while the 6,8uF measures 7,6uF.
I have an old ELNA capacitor that I took out from another crossover. It supposed to be 10uF but now it measures 16,4 uF so I was thinking to put it into the Tannoy crossover.
Do you think it is a good idea or with age it will have to be replaced again because its value will go upper again?

[Ammonite Audio]

I would always replace old and suspect components with new ones of the same value; not necessarily 'boutique' components, but at least ones with a reasonably tight tolerance.

[vencel]

I've now ordered the parts from Falcon Acoustics for a pair of new crossovers for the Lancasters, so things are moving on! To keep costs down, the main LF section series inductor is a high-power iron-dust cored component, which prior experience tells me is usually nice sounding, with very good dynamics. The HF section inductors are air-cored. Capacitors are Claritycap ESA, chosen more for their modest cost than anything else; resistors are cheapo wirewounds, which may get changed for something more exotic if the overall voicing etc is OK with the values chosen. Internal wiring will use Audio Note AN-D, again largely because of its modest cost.

Hello Shuggie,

How did you get or make a 16uF ClarityCap? I only see 15uF.
Did you use Vishay MKP1837 to bypas any capacitors?

Thanks,
László

[Ali Tait]

15uF will be fine and within tolerance.

[The Black Adder]

OK - some pictures:

http://i55.tinypic.com/b9egox.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/30licuh.jpg

And a view of a Stillpoints Component Stand supporting the Lancasters:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2dhwmy0.jpg

Lifting the Lancasters up a bit has improved the sound, but there is clearly much more to be had. When stoked up (they are relatively inefficient compared to the Avalons) there is quite a lot of heft to kick drums etc but the whole lacks musicality against the Avalons. It feels like they don't "breathe' particularly well. The Sinatra LP that I took over to Martin's last week is not particularly engaging played through the Lancasters and I have an unpleasant feeling that the Monitor Golds really need a bigger enclosure like Marco's Lockwoods or Tom's GRFs - greater size is the one parameter that I cannot accommodate.

Hi Hugo.

I have a great tip for you. I've just got my something solid stands today and the sound is different again. I had them made for a decent price too. They fit and suit the lancasters like a glove.

You have to remove the small 5cm plinth bit it's well worth it. I ordered them from Deco Audio, great to deal with.

The sound is now more open since the center of the speaker is now at ear level. The bass is much more rock solid, although it was pretty good before.

I totally recommend these stands. I'll get some pics together when I have time too.

Cheers
Joe

[vencel]

Hi Hugo.

I have a great tip for you. I've just got my something solid stands today and the sound is different again. I had them made for a decent price too. They fit and suit the lancasters like a glove.

You have to remove the small 5cm plinth bit it's well worth it. I ordered them from Deco Audio, great to deal with.

The sound is now more open since the center of the speaker is now at ear level. The bass is much more rock solid, although it was pretty good before.

I totally recommend these stands. I'll get some pics together when I have time too.

Cheers
Joe

Hello Joe,

I would also be interested in these stands. WOuld it be possible to share the photos and its dimensions or a construction drawing?
I would really appreciate that.

Thanks and regards,

[vencel]

15uF will be fine and within tolerance.

Thanks for your support!

[Ammonite Audio]

Hello Shuggie,

How did you get or make a 16uF ClarityCap? I only see 15uF.
Did you use Vishay MKP1837 to bypas any capacitors?

Thanks,
László

I bought a 15uF and 1uF to go in parallel. They are not bypasses, but this is something that I may look at, once I'm happy with the overall crossover configuration.


Hi Hugo.

I have a great tip for you. I've just got my something solid stands today and the sound is different again. I had them made for a decent price too. They fit and suit the lancasters like a glove.

You have to remove the small 5cm plinth bit it's well worth it. I ordered them from Deco Audio, great to deal with.

The sound is now more open since the center of the speaker is now at ear level. The bass is much more rock solid, although it was pretty good before.

I totally recommend these stands. I'll get some pics together when I have time too.

Cheers

I'm not going to lavish a great deal of money on these Lancaster cabinets; however I will get some elegant little tripod stands made up from strong ply. The Stillpoints Component stands don't really lift the Lancasters up enough, but it's clear that being off the floor does help. I will incorporate some OEM Stillpoints feet into the tripod stands.

I've learnt a bit recently about aperiodic vents such as those in the Lancasters - they should be resistive, not fully open, so I must try securing some thick felt over the vents. The speakers do sound truly awful with the vents completely open, so I'm hoping that they will behave like much larger cabinets if I get the resistive element right. From what I've read about aperiodic cabinet design, getting the vent right may mean that I could remove a great deal of the internal damping, replacing it with simple felt layers to control the worst internal reflections. Whatever I do, I'm keen not to carry out any surgery on the cabinets, just in case I do decide to move them on!

[The Black Adder]

I would be very interested in hearing what you come up with. It makes sense that they should be resistive with the early cabs with 15" drivers as they were not ported (or shut off) and so could be a very good experiment to try a resistive baffle of some kind.

The stands cost me £250.. not a lot to throw at these superb speakers!

What I'm finding with mine is that the bass is making the front cloth vibrate... lol...

[The Black Adder]

Hello Joe,

I would also be interested in these stands. WOuld it be possible to share the photos and its dimensions or a construction drawing?
I would really appreciate that.

Thanks and regards,

Yep, I'll get some photos done soon together with the dimensions.

Cheers

[vencel]

Yep, I'll get some photos done soon together with the dimensions.

Cheers

That'd be highly appreciated :-)

[vencel]

I've learnt a bit recently about aperiodic vents such as those in the Lancasters - they should be resistive, not fully open, so I must try securing some thick felt over the vents. The speakers do sound truly awful with the vents completely open, so I'm hoping that they will behave like much larger cabinets if I get the resistive element right. From what I've read about aperiodic cabinet design, getting the vent right may mean that I could remove a great deal of the internal damping, replacing it with simple felt layers to control the worst internal reflections. Whatever I do, I'm keen not to carry out any surgery on the cabinets, just in case I do decide to move them on!

Good idea and I hope the 15uF and 1uF capacitor will fit in the Tannoy crossover box because I would like to use the original one but to upgrade/replace the old components. I am also thinking about placing the crossover closer to the selectors because at the moment the speaker terminals are situated on the bottom of the back cover together with the crossover (which is not placed in a brown box, but in a grey). The speaker terminals are connected to the crossover with a black wire. From the crossover a rather thick white cable goes to the rotary selectors. There is another black cable that goes to the speakers. Both black cables enter/exit the crossover box on the same side.

Your plan with the Lancaster cabinets are very interesting. Is that something similar to the method what is used with the Goodmans Axiom speakers? They use some kind of special grill at the "reflex" port.

Maybe you could also try with a sponge instead of the felt material.

May I ask why do you want to stick to the Lancaster cabinets and why aren't you interested in other cabinet designs, like Lockwood Major?

Please keep us updated.

Thanks,

[Ammonite Audio]

I am interested in other cabinet designs, including the Lockwoods, but the Lancasters are such a handy size that it seems sensible to give them their best chance to perform. My home is not large, so much bigger enclosures are not a good idea.

Regarding the crossovers, I'm not touching the Tannoy original crossovers at all - these will remain in place inside their boxes, but not connected in any way. I will have to fit some decent 4mm binding posts at the rear of each speaker, but these will just feed the completely new crossovers, which are to be built up on small plywood boards, and connected to the Monitor Gold drive units using original Tannoy 4 pin connectors (procured from eBay).

I have hopes that the Lancasters can do much better with only modest expenditure. If they don't, I will have an almost original pair of speakers in pretty much mint condition to move on.

[The Black Adder]

The Tannoys in Lancs I believe can be improved no end. One thing I would do though is to ditch the original 4 pin connector.. hard wire to the driver. Doing that is totally reversible if you indeed want to sell on the speakers.

[Ammonite Audio]

The Tannoys in Lancs I believe can be improved no end. One thing I would do though is to ditch the original 4 pin connector.. hard wire to the driver. Doing that is totally reversible if you indeed want to sell on the speakers.

I agree - using the 4 pin connectors is a temporary convenience measure while I'm fiddling around with the crossovers. I suspect that the tweeter cabling is pretty ropey, which is another reason for hard wiring direct to the drivers.

[vencel]

I agree - using the 4 pin connectors is a temporary convenience measure while I'm fiddling around with the crossovers. I suspect that the tweeter cabling is pretty ropey, which is another reason for hard wiring direct to the drivers.

I was also thinking to hardwire the speakers to the crossovers but I am a bit afraid and confused about doing this, especially the tweeter, because I think their connection points are more sensitive and I am afriad to solder them.
If you say it is not a problem to desolder the old wires and to solder in new ones I think I might give it a try and solder in a good qaulity wire. Since we are talking about couple centimeres length, I would even buy a Kondo wire for it.

Or do you suggest to directly connect the tweeter part to the new crossover and totally leave out the 4 pin connector? I was planning to clean the connector. It is very comfortable and maybe I could modify them to use silver pins in it.
What or which type and brand of wire would you recommend for the tweeter and which for the woofer part?

Thanks!

[vencel]

I am interested in other cabinet designs, including the Lockwoods, but the Lancasters are such a handy size that it seems sensible to give them their best chance to perform. My home is not large, so much bigger enclosures are not a good idea.

Do you have any information or plan for the Lockwood Major cabinets?
If you do have, please send me PM.

Thanks and regards,

[Ammonite Audio]

As it happens, I may be able to measure a Lockwood Major cabinet, so please wait out for the moment.

Regarding speaker wiring, I am using Audio Note AN-D internal speaker cable, which is a relatively cheap, good quality copper cable. I shall use it on both woofer and tweeter, initially using the 4-pin plug, but when I'm happy with the crossover circuit, I'll solder the wires directly to the terminals on the drive unit.

[Jonboy]

As it happens, I may be able to measure a Lockwood Major cabinet, so please wait out for the moment.

Regarding speaker wiring, I am using Audio Note AN-D internal speaker cable, which is a relatively cheap, good quality copper cable. I shall use it on both woofer and tweeter, initially using the 4-pin plug, but when I'm happy with the crossover circuit, I'll solder the wires directly to the terminals on the drive unit.


I would be interested in the dims of a lockwood as well :)

Copper is the way forward, don't go for silver

[aquapiranha]

I would be interested in the dims of a lockwood as well :)

Copper is the way forward, don't go for silver

I am trying to find them for you. don't hold your breath though as Lockwood do not have the plans they have told me. :)

[The Black Adder]

+1 for the Lockwood plans if thats ok.

[Macca]

'NOT the suited span though same distance as good as really rare. '

http://floorstandingspeakersok.co.uk/199-00-tannoy-lockwood-major-le1-cabs-for-15-dual-concentrics/

:lolsign:

[Ammonite Audio]

Those LE1 cabinets must be huge - they are significantly taller than Marco's Lockwoods; also the two cabinets do look to be constructed differently. Much better to start fro scratch, I reckon.

[Marco]

Hi Hugo,


Those LE1 cabinets must be huge - they are significantly taller than Marco's Lockwoods....

Erm, no.... My Lockwoods are 112cm (H), 72cm (W) and 46cm (D). But those (black) LE1s do look nice! :cool:

From the link:


Dimensions, approx have been 111 cms high, 61 cms far-reaching as good as 44.5 cms deep. Lockwood cabinets of this distance have been deliberate to be really special as good as sought after to operate with any fifteen in.


I do agree with that last sentence!

How are things going now with your Lancasters? :)

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Erm, no.... My Lockwoods are 112cm (H), 72cm (W) and 46cm (D). But those (black) LE1s do look nice! :cool:

Maybe the photo has been stretched - they do look disconcertingly taller than yours. They do seem to be wrecks, requiring a great deal of work to be domestically acceptable and it would certainly be possible to build something better from scratch.


How are things going now with your Lancasters? :)

Marco.

I have all the new crossover bits and the Audio Note AN-D wire; and all things being well I will construct the new boards this weekend. I have chosen a nominal value of 4.5mH for the main HF section inductor - having read as much as is online about the original HF autotransformer, I wonder if it is correct, mainly since the autotransformer allows for 1.2x stepup of HF energy, which is clearly not possible unless I use the same sort of device (or the original autotransformer as Martin did in Denmark). Listening will tell, of course. I don't suppose that you have a note of what Dave used for the big HF inductor in your crossovers? Maybe there is a label on the inductor?

Crossover aside, I am also going to play around with the resistive vent and the amount of internal stuffing (all reversible). Having asked around for advice, I have come to the conclusion that experimentation and listening is the key here, rather than maths.

It's too early to decide whether the Lancasters will be staying. They do some things that are wonderful, but listening to them has shown me just how wonderful the Avalons are too. Tinkering with the Tannoys is harmless fun, though!

[Jonboy]

'NOT the suited span though same distance as good as really rare. '

http://floorstandingspeakersok.co.uk/199-00-tannoy-lockwood-major-le1-cabs-for-15-dual-concentrics/

:lolsign:

I saw those as well but put off by the odd cabinets

[vencel]

I have all the new crossover bits and the Audio Note AN-D wire;


May I ask what lengths did you order from this wire and where did you get them from?

Regards,

[Ali Tait]

Lots of AN cable for sale here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/wire.html

[vencel]

Lots of AN cable for sale here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/wire.html

Thanks for it. I am wondering about buying the AN LX which is the Audio Note version of Kondo KSL-SPc. I just don't know what length should I buy and if it is worth buying the more expensive LX instead of the AN-D.

[Ammonite Audio]

Thanks for it. I am wondering about buying the AN LX which is the Audio Note version of Kondo KSL-SPc. I just don't know what length should I buy and if it is worth buying the more expensive LX instead of the AN-D.

Probably not, bearing in mind how much copper wire is already in the drive units' coils. As for length, work out whether you want to wire both positive and ground terminals on the drive units to the crossover (recommended) or just use a single ground wire for both; also whether you're going to use the 4-pin plug or solder the wires directly to the LF and HF connections on the drive units. I bought 5m each of red and black AN-D respectively, allowing a good margin for experimentation and error.

[adrian]

Hi All

So, it seem s like there are a couple of interested parties in building a set or restoring a set of Lockwood Majors. I also saw that advert ,and got a bit put off by the way the ad ran.Translations, no proper cab match,where were they located? Maybe they WERE OK and the matching may have been just superficial? What do you think?

Hey ,we have to break through now ,and get some definitive plans from somewhere.
'The time for hesitation's thru' la la la la la la la laaaaaa
Gotta get hold of a pair of Lockwoods from somewhere.(or the plans)

Imaginative approach needed here.

See YA

ADRIAN

[Ammonite Audio]

I can see why the little 4-pin plug is so derided - the intermediate wires connecting the bass coil to the 4-pin chassis socket on the Monitor Gold are very thin and flimsy. Not what you really want for decent bass power and performance. Having had a good look at this, I'm more confident about soldering wires from the crossover directly to the drivers.

[vencel]

I can see why the little 4-pin plug is so derided - the intermediate wires connecting the bass coil to the 4-pin chassis socket on the Monitor Gold are very thin and flimsy. Not what you really want for decent bass power and performance. Having had a good look at this, I'm more confident about soldering wires from the crossover directly to the drivers.

2 x 5m isn't cheap even from the AN-D. I still plan to try the whole thing with the original crossover and 4 pin plug. Of course I am going to change the caps in the original crossover and I might also resolder the connections and maybe to replace the wires in the crossovers.
I also plan to carefully clean the 4 pin plugs and to replace the wires going to the speakers.
Of course 4 rotary switches also need to be cleaned and I will try to place the crossover little bit closer to the speakers. Currently the crossovers is my Lancasters are placed on the botto of the back panel and I have the banana plugs there as well. The signal from the banana plugs go to the crossovers on a rather lengthy cable then the signal goes in a white cable to the rotary switches (to the top part of the back panel), then the signal goes from the crossover to the speakers which are of course placed on the top part of the Lancaster cabinet.

So all in all the signal travels quite a lot inside the cabinet. I would like to make it shorter and see how does it improve the sound and to check if further improvement is needed. I am still interested in your experiment with the port.

[vencel]

Do you think that placing the crossover to the top part of the back cover would be a bad idea as the Gold's magnet would negatively affect the crossover parts? In some cabs I've seen the crossover was placed on the top, in some cases in the bottom.

[Ammonite Audio]

Do you think that placing the crossover to the top part of the back cover would be a bad idea as the Gold's magnet would negatively affect the crossover parts? In some cabs I've seen the crossover was placed on the top, in some cases in the bottom.

For my experiments I am placing the crossover in the bottom of the cabinet, where it will probably remain, as shown below.

http://i54.tinypic.com/23gzsb6.jpg

The Gold's magnet should not interfere with the crossover components since its magnetic field, though strong, is static. I think the bottom of the cabinet is in any case the best place for the crossover.

[Macca]

I know those cabs are big but the drivers are so large as to make them look way too small. I have to say if it was me I would look at building some optimum size cabs based on the driver parameters, I suspect it is the only way to get the full benefit.

[Ammonite Audio]

I know those cabs are big but the drivers are so large as to make them look way too small. I have to say if it was me I would look at building some optimum size cabs based on the driver parameters, I suspect it is the only way to get the full benefit.

The Lancaster cabinets aren't big at all, which is part of their appeal and they are easy to accommodate in a normal room. That said, you are probably right, but it's worth tinkering with the (presently covered) aperiodic vent first, in order to get a "virtual" increase in cabinet volume.

[Ammonite Audio]

I have tried the new crossovers in the Lancasters, with limited success. There is better low end definition, but too little treble energy. My suspicions about the Monitor Golds needing the 1.2x treble lift provided by the standard autotransformer appear to be confirmed. I think that the way to go from here is to service the existing crossovers, using the ClarityCaps if they will fit. In the meantime, I'm revisiting my reference Avalons.

[vencel]

I just received the ClarityCaps and they measure the following:
15,56uF
15,36uF
6,98uF
6,99uF
1,017uF
1,022uF
I will not put the 1uF caps in parallel of the 15uF because I would either have:
16.382uF (15,36 + 1,022) and 16,577uF (15,56 + 1,017).
First of all I would not be really closer to the given 16uF, secondly it would be hard to place the small one in the original crossover (the big one fits in OK).
In parallel the overall capacitances would be closer to each other but I am sure that originally they were not matching that much the capacitors.

So far I will leave the resistors and the smaller caps, but I might also change the them later.

So far all new caps fit in the crossover nicely. I am open to your suggestions if I should also quickly replace the 1,5 and 3,3uF caps and the resistors.
Could you recommend any resistor brand and type?

Thanks,

[Ammonite Audio]

So far I will leave the resistors and the smaller caps, but I might also change the them later.

So far all new caps fit in the crossover nicely. I am open to your suggestions if I should also quickly replace the 1,5 and 3,3uF caps and the resistors.
Could you recommend any resistor brand and type?

Thanks,

If replacements for the smaller caps will fit, then it may be worth upgrading them. I would not rush to change the resistors, but if you must, then Mills wirewound resistors ( http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mills.html ) may be worth a pop. I am leaving the original resistors in my Tannoy crossovers.

[vencel]

If replacements for the smaller caps will fit, then it may be worth upgrading them. I would not rush to change the resistors, but if you must, then Mills wirewound resistors ( http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mills.html ) may be worth a pop. I am leaving the original resistors in my Tannoy crossovers.

Thanks for your answer. Shall I buy ClarityCaps as well instead of the 1,5 and 3,3uF caps?
If only they could take back the 1uF which I will not use...
The only other option for these caps would be Bennic which is about the same price as ClarityCaps but I can buy them locally and they are a bit smaller in size.

[vencel]

One more question: shall I use solid silver (40 years old) wire in teflon insulation for the tweeter? I would connect the tweeter part directly with the crossover.
Thanks,

[Ammonite Audio]

I really don't know - give it a try, and if you like it, keep it!

[The Black Adder]

A quick suggestion... seeing as you have the backs off the speakers why not earth the driver? I've been thinking of doing this myself but it's only something I've heard about.. some say it has sonic improvements and some don't.

[The Black Adder]

One more question: shall I use solid silver (40 years old) wire in teflon insulation for the tweeter? I would connect the tweeter part directly with the crossover.
Thanks,

I'd stick with copper mate... :)

[vencel]

A quick suggestion... seeing as you have the backs off the speakers why not earth the driver? I've been thinking of doing this myself but it's only something I've heard about.. some say it has sonic improvements and some don't.

What do you mean by earthing the drivers?
I've never seen and heard about it. Could you maybe describe it in more details?

Thanks for the suggestion. I will stick to copper with the HF unit as well.
I know that for the bass thick copper wire is suggested, but should it be solid core, multistrand or litze? What diameter (solid, multistrand or litze) is suggested for the HF unit?

[vencel]

For the bass finally I did not order the AN-D but I bought UPOCC Neotech 1,2mm diameter solid core copper wire. I got today the 1,5 and 3,3uF Bennic capacitors. They are much smaller than the ClarityCaps so the fit nicely in the original crossover. This way all capacitors are replaced in the crossover but the resistors are the old ones.
I hope this upgrade will improve the sound. I still have to resolder all solder points and to clean all connections (especially in the rotary switches).

[The Black Adder]

mine is the same thickness for the HF and sounds superb.

Earthing speakers is very much something that is a 'try it and see'. It's (apparently) best if the whole system is earthed via a 'star' terminal and that goes straight to a copper rod buried in the ground. Russ Andrews sell the terminals but I don't like having my leg lifted as the prices there are still back in 2006... stooopidly expensive.

[vencel]

Here is a photo of the upgraded crossover :-)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22181492/P1040822.JPG

Combination of ClarityCaps and Bennics. If I would only use Bennic capacitors the whole thing would fit more nicely but I ordered the ClarityCaps before I realized that I can buy Bennic caps locally.
I am not sure which one is better: ClarityCap or Bennic.
This is only one crossover, I still have to do the other and I have to install the new wire as well.

[Marco]

Hi László,

Any chance of uploading that image through Photobucket or Imageshack, where it can then be viewed instantly and resized properly for message boards? :)

Marco.

[vencel]

Hi László,

Any chance of uploading that image through Photobucket or Imageshack, where it can then be viewed instantly and resized properly for message boards? :)

Marco.

Sure, here it is. Thanks for the suggestion, I've never used imageshack before and was wondering how could I attach a larger photo :-)

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8906/p1040822y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/p1040822y.jpg/)

[Marco]

Nice one, László. It looks good. It'll be interesting finding out what you think of the sonic results you've achieved, and whether or not you consider them to be superior to what you obtained with the stock crossovers :)

Marco.

[vencel]

Nice one, László. It looks good. It'll be interesting finding out what you think of the sonic results you've achieved, and whether or not you consider them to be superior to what you obtained with the stock crossovers :)

Marco.

It will have to wait a bit because my power amp is under construction right now. I am getting its chassis repainted so it'll take some weeks until it will be usable again :-(

[Ammonite Audio]

A pair of tidy Lancasters with 15" MGs sold for £2100 on eBay today. Nice to know that I have an appreciating asset!

[vencel]

A pair of tidy Lancasters with 15" MGs sold for £2100 on eBay today. Nice to know that I have an appreciating asset!

Yes, it is very good to know that they are not only nice sounding, historical speakers, but also a good investment :-)

[The Black Adder]

Cos they're bloody good! :)

[vencel]

Today I mounted out the rotary (energy and treble) switches and they are quite easy to clean. They were very-very dirty but now they are shining. I cleaned the connections and relubricated the whole thing. Now it looks like new.
I think there is no need to bypass these selector switches, they only need some cleaning.
I made some photos about the process but unfortunately I forgot to shot some photos of the original (dirty) condition :-(
If you're interested let me know and I will upload the photos.

[Marco]

Yes please - it all adds interest to the thread :)

Marco.

[vencel]

Here are the photos. I hope it can be seen on the first few photos how dirty the rotary selector was. The bottom round plate can be taken off easily so the connection van be cleaned.
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6210/p1040826a.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/p1040826a.jpg/)
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3852/p1040831e.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/p1040831e.jpg/)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5927/p1040841v.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/p1040841v.jpg/)

The last few photos are taken after the selector was cleaned and put together.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7308/p1040846pl.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/p1040846pl.jpg/)
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9210/p1040847k.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/p1040847k.jpg/)

There is one additional photos on which I show how did re-organized the crossover placement so I could make the cable going to the treble and energy selector much shorter. You can also see my new wires which I added instead of the original ones. I could also nicely clean the 4pin connector so I will use them.
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/5337/p1040845c.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/p1040845c.jpg/)

[Marco]

Nice work, László - I'm sure that will make quite a difference! :)

Marco.

[vencel]

Nice work, László - I'm sure that will make quite a difference! :)

Marco.

Thanks :-) I hope that it will make a big difference. The only problem that I did not carry these modification out one after another so I could see the difference and know which made the biggest improvement. Unfortunately I don't have time to take it apart then change something again, then again...
I wonder how much improvement would bring the cleaning of the switches...

I am almost done with the second speaker. This one went much faster as I already knew how to take things apart and which was is the best to clean.
The only thing that is needed to solder in the new wires which are already cut into appropriate pieces.

[vencel]

I am wondering if the connections points in the rotary switches are silver or not?!

[Ammonite Audio]

I am wondering if the connections points in the rotary switches are silver or not?!

Almost certainly not silver

[vencel]

Find attached some photos about the original layout of the crossover placement and wiring as well as the rotary selector switch from the other cabinet. You can see how dirty they are. No wonder why they degrade the sound so much.
There is also one photo on which you can see them cleaned.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/74/p1040853c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/p1040853c.jpg/)


http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2048/p1040859cl.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/p1040859cl.jpg/)


http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8572/p1040856i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/101/p1040856i.jpg/)


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8915/p1040862n.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/p1040862n.jpg/)


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3333/p1040883t.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/p1040883t.jpg/)

I hope you like the photos and convince you to clean yours :-)

Shuggie!
Are there any news about your experiment with the cabinet opening?

[Ammonite Audio]

No news, since I am juggling a busy work schedule as well as 6 week-old puppies!

[Marco]

Hi László,

I enlarged the picture for you, so people could see the dirt you've removed more clearly! :)

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

Another pair of 15" Monitor Gold Lancasters sold today on eBay for £2333.

[DSJR]

If only we'd known at the time..... And old ones can be properly serviced too..

[The Black Adder]

Another pair of 15" Monitor Gold Lancasters sold today on eBay for £2333.

Blimey Gov!

[Thing Fish]

Just as a matter of interest what price were they new...?

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm guessing but less than £200 :eyebrows: Maybe less than £100 :eek:

[Thing Fish]

I'm guessing but less than £200 :eyebrows: Maybe less than £100 :eek:

Whoa...:stalks: