Why do my wireless boxes lose the router?

[Ashmore]

Chaps I hope this thread isn't too tangental for the forum. It concerns a niggly issue I have with my wireless music delivery - so it is relevant...

I run three squeezeboxes of various vintages wirelessly off a router (a BT homehub - the version before the new whizzy one they've just released). The router also has a PC and a server running Vortexbox connected by ethernet and often an android phone and netbook wirelessly.

I have a stable broadband connection.

Here's the issue: I frequently have a brief wireless 'out' - typically once during each listening session. The squeezeboxes 'lose' the router, and hang. They appear to reconnect briefly moments later but then drop the signal for a second time. Left to their own devices they will resume about two minutes after the failure. It is a predictable behaviour.

I just can't reason why this happens. All devices have a unique IP via DHCP on a long lease, I have tried different channels. It's not about signal strength as one of the SBs is in the same room. I can't identify a trigger.

I've looked through the router logs and, whilst here are occasional errors, they don't tally with the outages and I can see nothing that seems relevant to the behaviour.

Any bright ideas?

Simon

[Themis]

Probably a server high workload. ;)

Do you stream FLAC or PCM ?

[Ashmore]

FLAC I think... I've got the file types set to FLAC native, MP3: flac/lame, PCM: flac.

[dave2010]

I have had some issues with my network and a Squeezebox. Sometimes, for no apparent reason the SB display will come on, and a message about losing contact with the server will appear. This can happen even if the SB (SB3) is not playing any music. For quite a while I wondered if it was a problem with my router, and indeed the routers have been changed over the years but this still happens. There doesn't normally seem to be a problem with music unless the failure is catastrophic, as the player buffers music for quite a long time.

Have you got any cordless phones near the wireless access point of the router? Or microwave ovens? I think these may cause problems occasionally. Phones can be tricky, as you may find that others in your house are using the phone, and you may not realise, particularly if you have several cordless phones in different rooms.

I moved our phone base station because I suspected this. Also, do you have any other wireless computer kit in the same rooms? Sometimes if there is another wireless device on a line between one unit and the router there can be an interaction, with a loss of throughput. Some devices are directional too, so rotating them through 90 degrees can significantly modify throughput. This sounds odd, but I have measured throughput changes due to both these effects. Also - this seems obvious - make sure you don't put a wirelss device on top of a metal tray or table. I once put a laptop on top of a biscuit tin, and the wireless connection dropped to the point where I was prompted to measure throughput, and hence discovered some of the effects mentioned.

The new BT routers are supposed to be v good, and indeed may be, but some older routers are more prone to problems. For some it has been recommended that they are power cycled once every 24 hours, either manually or on a time switch.

Another possibility is if you are using HomePlug/Powerline connections between your router and the server machine, though normally failures of those links go hard, and the units have to be reset. If your server machine is newish it should easily have enough computational power, unless you run CPU intensive jobs, or have picked up some form of virus.

If you discover what's causing your problem, do let us know, as this is a problem type which I have been trying to pin down for quite a while.

[WAD62]

FLAC I think... I've got the file types set to FLAC native, MP3: flac/lame, PCM: flac.

Simon, a couple of suggestions, firstly what %age wi-fi reception do your SBs get, you can usually see this in the SB Server settings web page...might be worth checking to see if you're getting enough reception.

Secondly, try the old IT trick, close everything down, unplugging the SBs from the mains, and powering off the server and router...then bring them back up again...in the right sequence i.e. Router, Server, SBs. :)

[Themis]

FLAC I think... I've got the file types set to FLAC native, MP3: flac/lame, PCM: flac.
Thank you.

Most probably then the server is too busy at regular intervals.
This kind of behaviour is not easy to analyse from a distance,there could be various reasons for such a thing. But I will try to do my best.

In the meanwhile:
- Which kind of server is it ? Processor, memory,OS ?
- Is there any Media Server service running ?
- Is the server connected via WiFi to the router as well ? Try hard-wiring it to the router.
- Do you have any "green" (energy saving) software installed ? Is the server's energy consumption policy to "normal" (not "energy saving") ?

[Ashmore]

Thank you all for your responses so far.

Futrher clarifications:
Signal strength ranges from 95% from the nearby unit to 45% for the one furthest away.
The server is an Atom N270 @ 1.60GHz - running with 2gig of RAM. The OS is vortexbox, a dedicated squeezebox distro of a Fedora release (Laughlin). It serves no other need and often happily serves radio to one device and FLAC to another. It is really stable and simply doesn't fail.
It is connected to the router via an ethernet cable.
No green stuff
There are cordless phones, and I live in a resdiential are where there are plenty of other wireless enabled homes.

I have always assumed that it was about network congestion - you know someting interferring with the signal causing it to lose it's way, but of course this is just an assumption on my part.

Simon

[Themis]

Well, the problem with the Squeezebox, is that it has several seconds of buffer. A network congestion (if any) lasts a few tens of milliseconds at its worse. It can slow down some connections, but it can certainly not interrupt them for two minutes...

I have a couple of questions more:
- Have you applied any "modifications" for your SB ? (like the ones mentioned in the forums)
- Is the dropout problem recent ? Has it been constant since it appeared ?

[Ashmore]

Thanks Themis

No mods and yes I would say this is a long term constant issue.

[Themis]

Ok, a simple check:

If it's a server congestion, then all connected SBs should have the same connection probleme at the same time. If they don't disconnect simultaneously, it's not a server congestion (but it could still be a Squeezebox Server software bug).

If it's a wifi congestion, then all connected devices (PC, phones, SBs etc) should suffer from a simultaneous disconnection. If it's not the case, then it's not the wifi.

If disconnection is not related to a specific device, but can "randomly" affect connected devices, then there are two possibilities left:
- A router DHCP malfunction.
- A router general malfunction.

Try to eliminate the first possibility by affecting static IP address on some devices, without using the DHCP service on your router. ;)

[Ashmore]

Thank you, I follow the logic. I know that the SBs all go out at the same time but I don't know if it also affects the notebook. I shall experiement (could take a day or two).

Assuming that it is wifi congestion (which I suspect it will be), I guess I have some options - firstly to avoid wifi at all if I can - homeplugs, ethernet for the SB in the router room.

But I don't know if there's anything I can do to address the wifi issue itself.

[Themis]

Assuming it is a wifi issue, it could be a hardware router problem. Perhaps you should experiment with another router (if you can find a replacement router...).

[dave2010]

The Atoms aren't the most powerful processors, but I've also used them even running Win XP as a Squeezebox server. You are using what should be faster/better software, so it's hard to see what's going on. Have you tried checking all the running tasks, to see if there's anything getting in there and causing a problem?

Could there be a problem with the disc storage? Is it part of the computer, or is it on a network or an external USB drive? As I said, if the system is only running the audio related software it's hard to see what could be going on, but if there was something else running I might suspect an interaction with the discs. Some virtual memory systems can bring a computer system pretty much to its virtual knees if they have a problem, or are not configured properly. Also some systems do disc caching, which can also give problems.

Could you run off USB memory sticks to see if that reduces/avoids the problem?

I could perhaps write a program which might give similar symptoms to yours, but such a program should not be running.

You seem to be in "tried all the obvious things, now having to try more esoteric explanations" territory.

[Canetoad]

Thank you, I follow the logic. I know that the SBs all go out at the same time but I don't know if it also affects the notebook. I shall experiement (could take a day or two).

Assuming that it is wifi congestion (which I suspect it will be), I guess I have some options - firstly to avoid wifi at all if I can - homeplugs, ethernet for the SB in the router room.

But I don't know if there's anything I can do to address the wifi issue itself.

Can anybody tell me if using Homeplugs to connect Squeezeboxes using ethernet cables affects the quality of the sound? :scratch:

[WAD62]

Thank you all for your responses so far.

Futrher clarifications:
Signal strength ranges from 95% from the nearby unit to 45% for the one furthest away.
The server is an Atom N270 @ 1.60GHz - running with 2gig of RAM. The OS is vortexbox, a dedicated squeezebox distro of a Fedora release (Laughlin). It serves no other need and often happily serves radio to one device and FLAC to another. It is really stable and simply doesn't fail.
It is connected to the router via an ethernet cable.
No green stuff
There are cordless phones, and I live in a resdiential are where there are plenty of other wireless enabled homes.

I have always assumed that it was about network congestion - you know someting interferring with the signal causing it to lose it's way, but of course this is just an assumption on my part.

Simon

I'd say that 45% is pushing it a bit, I have an SB3 in the bedroom and occasionally it plays up, but it's at about 60% (my others are at 80ish%). And if you synchronise your players you'll get the 'weakest link in the chain' effect.

I'm running 2 SB receivers along with an SB3 quite happily with a 1.2ghz QNAP, so I doubt server performance is an issue, although if I don't recycle for a week or so things can slow down. Check the server utilisation if you can.

I've had wi-fi problems from cordless phones, so that's worth checking.

Or as Dimitri rightly points out it could point to your router.

As for Homeplugs, I'd suggest that as long as you're using FLAC then the transport mechanism is irrelevant, as it's an asynchronous FTP to the player...as to whether being connected to the homeplug adversely effects the player's performance I don't know...some might suggest that it's better than using wi-fi ;)

[dave2010]

Can anybody tell me if using Homeplugs to connect Squeezeboxes using ethernet cables affects the quality of the sound? :scratch:
Shouldn't do, as if the HomePlugs are working OK they should have more than enough capacity - even the 85 Mbps versions. However, the ones I have (Zyxel) sometimes run amok, and have to be reset, so obviously they can effectively silence the audio until the network is reset.

For HD video I'd recommend newer, higher data rate models, 200 Mbps and up. House wiring also has an impact, though for similar distances it may not be anything like as bad as the wireless drop-off. Sometimes different parts of a house may not talk to each other. I've never succeeded in getting HomePlugs to work from downstairs to upstairs. OK, they may be separate circuits, but they're on the same consumer unit. This should work, but hasn't so far.

There could be problems if other things are going on in your LAN at the same time, such as someone trying to stream HD video while you are listening to music. That could also affect a wireless system, of course.

If you really want to know I could test this, but not for a while.

[dave2010]

No green stuff

Simon???

What am I missing? (don't all reply at once!)

[Themis]

Can anybody tell me if using Homeplugs to connect Squeezeboxes using ethernet cables affects the quality of the sound? :scratch:
Normally homeplugs inject HF into AC. Also normally, any well made PSU should filter them. ;)

[Canetoad]

I have a set of 200 Mbps plugs I bought for something else (Bluray connection to internet) and never connected them up because I heard they added noise to the mains and didn't want it affecting the hifi, which is in the same room. I'll be using them to connect the Touch(downstairs) to the router (upstairs) so I'll see how it goes. I need to order a couple of Cat5 cables to set it all up.

[Ashmore]

Thanks for the further pointers.

I have a 'backup' copy of slimserver (or whatever it's called today ;)) on my main PC that I can switch to to seek to eliminate any suggestion of Atom server inadequacy.

WAD - I take your point about weak links in chains, but I don't tend to synch the players.

The 'no green stuff' note related to a question about whether I was running any power saving process.

Lastly, the HDD is in the Vortexbox.

I will step out for a few days now to do some of the testing that some of your have prompted and report back.

Thanks again

Simon

[Peter Stockwell]

As for Homeplugs, I'd suggest that as long as you're using FLAC then the transport mechanism is irrelevant, as it's an asynchronous FTP to the player...as to whether being connected to the homeplug adversely effects the player's performance I don't know...some might suggest that it's better than using wi-fi ;)

Use these myself because wifi would drop out from time to time, the microwave oven would cause this, IME, and portable phones are reported to do this too.

Can't say if Homeplugs polute mains enough to ruine sound, system sounds good to me.

[dave2010]

I have a set of 200 Mbps plugs I bought for something else (Bluray connection to internet) and never connected them up because I heard they added noise to the mains and didn't want it affecting the hifi, which is in the same room. I'll be using them to connect the Touch(downstairs) to the router (upstairs) so I'll see how it goes. I need to order a couple of Cat5 cables to set it all up.
Of course HomePlugs will add noise to the mains, in the sense that they add in signals which wern't there before. The noise, as you call it, will be very high frequency, and probably wont't cause any problems. However, you have raised an interesting point. I suppose it's just possible that the mains could act as a transmitting aerial, and if the HF signals are in the same range as some other HF kit (e.g Wi-Fi, mobile phones, cordless phones, or FM radio frequencies), then these could interfere with some equipment, perhaps in ways which are not fully understood yet. On balance I'd say that it's unlikely. There was a time when I thought ADSL might generate so much interference that it would cause problems, but it does mostly seem to be OK. I'd say the same for HomePlugs now too.

Get those HomePlugs out and start using them. Good luck with the upstairs/downstairs connection - doesn't work in my house!

[Canetoad]

Cheers Dave, I'll get to it! :eyebrows:

[Mark Grant]

Not familiar with the BT router but if it has wireless 'n' then trying switching the 'n' off as the router may be looking for an n device which causes the drop outs.

All you need with squeezebox is b and g

http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745

Maybe try a high quality router.

The Billion 7800N is excellent :)
http://www.billion.uk.com/product/wireless/7800n.htm

Not cheap but really is excellent, our wired network is now faster for internet browsing and accessing any network shares than our previous Netgear DGN2000 router.
Wireless throughput appears more speedy.
everything is just more 'snappy'

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-BiPAC-7800N-Broadband-Wireless-N/dp/B002TOKGL8
-