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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
16-08-2011, 14:09
It seems there is a widespread misunderstanding about this psycho acoustic effect, so I feel perhaps an explanation is in order.

Firstly psycho acoustics relates to things that cannot be measured as such as they are part of our genetic programming as human beings. This is our nature and on top of this is imposed our nurture, which are the things we think we know, or we have been told and have taken on board as part of our perceived reality or our nature.

The "nature" of loudness is a self protection mechanism. When a sound is too loud for our physical nature to reproduce naturally we have a protection mechanism, wincing, placing hands over ears etc. What are we reacting to? we are reacting to mechanical distortion created by the physical structures of our ears reaching overload or mechanical clip, and our mind is programmed to realise when we are approaching this so we back off, move away from the danger if we can. This overloading of the ears mechanical structure means that harmonic distortion is created, so the ear hears the onset of harmonic distortion as the onset of something dangerous.

Now a sound system also creates these harmonic distortions when it is overloaded either mechanically or electrically, so even if those level have not reached a point where they threaten your hearing the brain will interpret them as *loud* and potentially dangerous so you react. It also will react to the onset of this distortion before the distortion is actually apparent as musically destructive, and the minds defence is to tell you it is loud. Now nurture comes in if you have been brought up on live rock concerts or similar to actually want to have that effect.

Now my point in all this is that this will happen with a two watt radio, a 50w hi-fi system or a 1000w pa, and with all three it will happen at onset of distortion. Though with the radio we intellectualise that it is not going to hurt us, where as the 1000w PA system is seriously capable of hurting you and if you are close enough then even killing you, without you necessarily perceiving it as loud musically, all the distortion will be from the destruction of your ears as they start to bleed.

It can be simply broken down to reaction, and being words obviously different people interpret differently, but if we take a norm then if you are listening to a high powered system, or efficient, or in a small enclosed environment your reaction is normally "wow that is powerful". If you are listening to a system going into transient clip your reaction is more likely to be "that is getting loud". The latter is the psycho acoustic loudness effect.

Now we come to how that is affected by hi-fi design. There is an internationally accepted standard for matching hi-fi items together known as line level (there is also mic level, which applies to other mechanical source transducers like cartridges). If a product is active then it is designed to operate at line level, and I know of no professional and commercial company that deviates from this apart from in the case of passive pre-amps. So a product operating at line level using a LogA or LogB or even Linear law volume control when it reaches 75% of travel will be clipping *all* signal of a transient nature. With modern highly compressed recordings this will be even more of a problem as transient almost becomes normal signal level.

Now we get to the point of the other thread that was closed. A valve amp will be musically far less noticeable in this than a solid state amp, due to the nature of the harmonics they produce when overload starts. BUT both will induce the psycho acoustic loudness effect.

Tim
16-08-2011, 14:26
:popcorn:

prestonchipfryer
16-08-2011, 14:38
'Too loud, lower it' as my good wife often points out. Seriously if your ears hurt when you listen to music then it is too late; the damage is done.

anthonyTD
16-08-2011, 14:52
hi all,
i dont think anyone has argued the point Richard is making as far as how we perceive loudness, however this latest indepth explanation still dosent alter the fact that you can design a preamp to give you maximum power level from a power amp[fully clipped if you like] at almost any position of the volume control you like, wether it be 7-oclock, 10-oclock, 1-oclock, 5-oclock etc, etc, etc.:eyebrows:
A...

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
16-08-2011, 14:58
hi all,
i dont think anyone has argued the point Richard is making as far as how we perceive loudness, however this latest indepth explanation still dosent alter the fact that you can design a preamp to give you maximum power level from a power amp[fully clipped if you like] at almost any position of the volume control you like, wether it be 7-oclock, 10-oclock, 1-oclock, 5-oclock etc, etc, etc.:eyebrows:
A...

So who does? who designs and manufactures product that doesn't follow line level rules.

anthonyTD
16-08-2011, 15:02
So who does? who designs and manufactures product that doesn't follow line level rules.
Anyone who wants to i guess, can you honestly say that you always design to the recognised norm ???:)
A...

Dr Bunsen Honeydew
16-08-2011, 15:07
Anyone who wants to i guess, can you honestly say that you always design to the recognised norm ???:)
A...

No one to my knowledge designs or builds other than at line level - do you?

The only exception I know of is in the case of non gain passive pre-amps.

This has nothing to do with other aspects of design, it is to do with equipment being electrical *level* compatible between different manufacturers products.

worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 15:17
It seems there is a widespread misunderstanding about this psycho acoustic effect, so I feel perhaps an explanation is in order.

Firstly psycho acoustics relates to things that cannot be measured as such as they are part of our genetic programming as human beings. This is our nature and on top of this is imposed our nurture, which are the things we think we know, or we have been told and have taken on board as part of our perceived reality or our nature.

The "nature" of loudness is a self protection mechanism. When a sound is too loud for our physical nature to reproduce naturally we have a protection mechanism, wincing, placing hands over ears etc. What are we reacting to? we are reacting to mechanical distortion created by the physical structures of our ears reaching overload or mechanical clip, and our mind is programmed to realise when we are approaching this so we back off, move away from the danger if we can. This overloading of the ears mechanical structure means that harmonic distortion is created, so the ear hears the onset of harmonic distortion as the onset of something dangerous.

Now a sound system also creates these harmonic distortions when it is overloaded either mechanically or electrically, so even if those level have not reached a point where they threaten your hearing the brain will interpret them as *loud* and potentially dangerous so you react. It also will react to the onset of this distortion before the distortion is actually apparent as musically destructive, and the minds defence is to tell you it is loud. Now nurture comes in if you have been brought up on live rock concerts or similar to actually want to have that effect.

Now my point in all this is that this will happen with a two watt radio, a 50w hi-fi system or a 1000w pa, and with all three it will happen at onset of distortion. Though with the radio we intellectualise that it is not going to hurt us, where as the 1000w PA system is seriously capable of hurting you and if you are close enough then even killing you, without you necessarily perceiving it as loud musically, all the distortion will be from the destruction of your ears as they start to bleed.

It can be simply broken down to reaction, and being words obviously different people interpret differently, but if we take a norm then if you are listening to a high powered system, or efficient, or in a small enclosed environment your reaction is normally "wow that is powerful". If you are listening to a system going into transient clip your reaction is more likely to be "that is getting loud". The latter is the psycho acoustic loudness effect.

Now we come to how that is affected by hi-fi design. There is an internationally accepted standard for matching hi-fi items together known as line level (there is also mic level, which applies to other mechanical source transducers like cartridges). If a product is active then it is designed to operate at line level, and I know of no professional and commercial company that deviates from this apart from in the case of passive pre-amps. So a product operating at line level using a LogA or LogB or even Linear law volume control when it reaches 75% of travel will be clipping *all* signal of a transient nature. With modern highly compressed recordings this will be even more of a problem as transient almost becomes normal signal level.

Now we get to the point of the other thread that was closed. A valve amp will be musically far less noticeable in this than a solid state amp, due to the nature of the harmonics they produce when overload starts. BUT both will induce the psycho acoustic loudness effect.


:wheniwasaboy:

anthonyTD
16-08-2011, 15:32
OK, two examples of diffrent gain structures from the past, then i realy must get on.
quad 2 and original preamp.
leak stereo 20 with point one or varioslope preamp.

Quad 2 power amp input signal required for full output around 2v

stereo 20 power amp input signal required for full output around 120mv

both examples using same input signal to preamp.

now, both preamps had enough gain [just about] to push either power amp to full output, but what do you think would happen to the physical volume position if the preamp from each was interchanged with the other ???
A...

DSJR
16-08-2011, 15:49
Back to the closure of the original thread - one preamp has a custom-calibrated stepped attenuator, quite possibly with a law all its own and the custom made power amp may well have a non-standard input sensitivity. Couple that with LARGE and highly efficien speakers and you have a scenario all its own :lol: :peace:

Alex_UK
16-08-2011, 16:18
Back to the closure of the original thread

Indeed - let's get back to that - the whole reason the original thread was closed was to stop the circular arguments - if Marco made the decision to close the thread, then I am sure he will not expect another thread to be started again on virtually the same subject Richard!

This thread has now been closed also. :steam:

I am sure Marco will be along later to comment further.

Marco
16-08-2011, 16:20
Back to the closure of the original thread - one preamp has a custom-calibrated stepped attenuator, quite possibly with a law all its own and the custom made power amp may well have a non-standard input sensitivity. Couple that with LARGE and highly efficien speakers and you have a scenario all its own :lol: :peace:


Indeed!


OK, two examples of diffrent gain structures from the past, then i realy must get on.
quad 2 and original preamp.
leak stereo 20 with point one or varioslope preamp.

Quad 2 power amp input signal required for full output around 2v

stereo 20 power amp input signal required for full output around 120mv

both examples using same input signal to preamp.

now, both preamps had enough gain [just about] to push either power amp to full output, but what do you think would happen to the physical volume position if the preamp from each was interchanged with the other ???


...and just the same as when you and I swap preamps and power amps between the Croft/Soul Mate and the Copper amp/Soul monoblocks. The gain structure in my Croft preamp is not 'standard', for starters!

And then what about when you adjust the feedback on valve power amps? If the feedback is increased then the amp becomes less sensitive, and so the volume control on the partnering preamp will have to be turned up more to achieve the same volume as before (and therefore this is reflected in the relative position of the volume control), the opposite of which will happen if feedback is lowered!

Again, another recipe for achieving different results from the 'industry norm', whatever that is....

As Anthony points out, quite correctly, in the hand-built bespoke amplifier world, which others and I inhabit, there are no bloody "line level rules".....! :doh:

Richard, this topic (in terms of its reference to my system, and what I'm hearing in my room) is bollocks, and simply an excuse to re-open the previous argument in a thread I had a very good reason for closing, so please do not start any more threads relating to this subject - ta!!

Marco.

P.S In case anyone's interested, for future reference, my listening room is: 4.46m – long, 3.32m– wide, 2.49m – high, or 37.03 Cubic Metres, in terms of internal volume.

(Measured with a Leica Disto laser distance meter, borrowed from my wife, who is using it for a teaching project).

And in there, there ain't no audible clipping of any description with my amps and my Lockwood speakers, so I must insist that certain parties absorb and accept that fact!! ;)