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wee tee cee
15-08-2011, 17:24
I fancy getting a head phone amp that that can be fed by usb straight from the lap top.Is the stan dac an extravagance with modest head phones.
I quite like the idea of having another dac in the stable to play around with.
Or should I consider something more modest......All my music is lossless on i tunes....Whats the on an i pod classic as an alternative...

Welder
15-08-2011, 17:52
Hang on; what is it you want, another Dac or a headphone amp?

I may be getting very confuzzeled in my old age but if I wanted a Dac I would get a Dac and if I want to listen to music at a decent quality through headphones I would get a headphone amp. In fact, that’s just what I did.

But, then again if I wanted a camera I wouldn’t get a cell phone :scratch:

wee tee cee
15-08-2011, 18:03
Granted,the post was as clear as mud......
I have ripped all my cds to i tunes and want to listen to them on head phones.
I have a computer based system with no facility to listen via headphones other than directly into the lap top.
I could buy an external dac like one of stans with the headphone amp and just connect via usb to the lap top OR get a i pod classic and have the mobility/convenience .
Only reservation is that the classic my son had a couple of years ago sounded shite.... plus theyre £200.
The gatorised caiman appeals as it has a pre-amp that I can utilise as Im becoming aware using the lap top is frowned upon.
Hope that is a wee bit less muddied.....

Tim
15-08-2011, 18:06
It all depends on how serious you are about headphone listening Tony and how often you are likely to do so. The Caiman is fine for moderate usage as a DAC/Headamp and I know Stan will maybe not be 100% in agreement, but if you want to use it a lot, you really will benefit from a proper headamp IMO. It's been discussed a lot previously by myself and Werner, we both love the Caiman partnered with a competent headamp, but not by itself for serious listening.

Do some searching on the forum and you will see what folk have said before?

A lot will also depend on which headphones you are going to use - maybe worth contacting Stan for some advice on headphone types and what he thinks? My combination is very good indeed, with each element complimenting the other well and for not much outlay either (see sig).

Tim
15-08-2011, 18:10
. . . as Im becoming aware using the lap top is frowned upon.
By who Tony? Nobody should frown upon anyone here for what equipment they use, we all have differing needs and budgets but a love for music is the most important factor - how you achieve that should never be frowned upon IMO :scratch:

Alex_UK
15-08-2011, 18:16
Fiio E7 is what I'll be buying soon. :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/FiiO-Portable-Headphone-DAC-Amplifier/dp/B003N0XDT4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313432161&sr=8-1

StanleyB
15-08-2011, 18:20
The Caiman is used as a kind of digital headphone amp by quite a lot of people, including some studio sound engineers around the globe. During a recent visit from one of the members on AoS I even stacked up a Gatorized Caiman fitted with a THS4032 opamp and Wima caps against a GS headamp. The differences in sound quality were really minimal. By chance I came across a webpage HERE (http://www.markuskraus.com/RMAA/CaimanSPDIF/data.htm),
which surprised me very much. The test results show that the Caiman headphone output is very good indeed.

But some people require an even higher output from the headamp than the standard audio PCB can deliver. Then is when you might need to check out some of the more expensive headamps, connected to the output of the Caiman. But forget about a headamp that costs less than a Caiman. I don't think that there is anything out there that is worthy contender if both are used for the same purpose as headamp.

wee tee cee
15-08-2011, 18:20
Tim,
Thanks for that,just tentatively dipping my toes in the head phone waters.
The lap top mention was in relation to using the volume control....Im concious I should maybe have a pre amp in the chain to let the lap top output with the taps open.
I ordered a sennheiser hd202 off amazon for £26.....came home early hours of the morning and plugged in cheap in-ear phones into the lap top and was really surprised how great it sounded.....first steps of a journey,just looking for some guidance from the great and the good on here....

Tim
15-08-2011, 18:42
Tim,
Thanks for that,just tentatively dipping my toes in the head phone waters.
The lap top mention was in relation to using the volume control....Im concious I should maybe have a pre amp in the chain to let the lap top output with the taps open.
I ordered a sennheiser hd202 off amazon for £26.....came home early hours of the morning and plugged in cheap in-ear phones into the lap top and was really surprised how great it sounded.....first steps of a journey,just looking for some guidance from the great and the good on here....
Well from your position a Caiman would be a significant step forward and I would certainly recommend one and as Stan has just pointed out quite rightly, the Caiman does need a good headamp to better it's own output. For most users the results are frighteningly good for the money, I just need more depth to the sound and when playing Classical the volume needs to go up and the Caiman alone cannot satisfy my needs. But it's still a very impressive product when paired with competent partners. I think you would be very pleased indeed and it's a very good place to start, as it's so much more than just a DAC.

Werner Berghofer
15-08-2011, 18:44
Stanley,


The test results show that the Caiman headphone output is very good indeed.

yeah, but do these charts also show how it sounds? ;-)

Werner.

StanleyB
15-08-2011, 18:50
If you do some opamp swapping you'll get a wider range of sound flavours as we already know.

Werner Berghofer
16-08-2011, 09:11
John,


if I wanted a Dac I would get a Dac and if I want to listen to music at a decent quality through headphones I would get a headphone amp.

this is exactly also my opinion.

A few days ago I read an excellent description of the usage of amplifiers and DACs:

“Think of it like your music is a picture. An amp will make the reds redder, blacks blacker, etc. Increased saturation. A DAC will bring the image more into focus. You’ll see more blades of grass, more texture on the skin. The two work together to get you more out of the image than what your source can give you on its own, but in different ways.”

Werner.

Tim
16-08-2011, 12:02
Exactly Werner, with the two together you get the whole picture - but ultimately it does depend on how discerning you are and how high your expectations. If you have never had a headphone amplifier before, then the Caiman will no doubt impress and satisfy most. But if you have listened a lot with a good headphone amplifier previously, it will in the long run reveal it's limitations IMO.

You need both to get the best from both - and not forgetting a capable pair of headphones too.

wee tee cee
16-08-2011, 12:14
The caiman offers the facility to convert digital to analogue away from the computer and has a head phone amplifier and pre amp.
Correct me if Im wrong but would a head phone amplifier not just amplify the computer analogue output.
I run my system off the computer as a volume control,I dont have an output t feed a separate amp hence the thinking behind the usb output.

wee tee cee
16-08-2011, 12:32
Ordered the Fiio E7 headphone amp/dac off amazon as recommended.Seems to fit my criteria pretty well.
Many thanks for all the advice......I had no idea headphone got so expensive.
AOS is costing me a small fortune.....

Alex_UK
16-08-2011, 12:37
Good luck with it Tony - a bit of a bargain at fifty quid, and I think you've been sensible in not spending a fortune until you see how you get on - just taking the DAC and Amp duties away from the laptop should make a big difference, plus you don't have to worry about power supplies bulky boxes - if you don't get on with it or feel the need to upgrade, you've lose hardly any money, too. Let us know what you think when you've got it. :)

Werner Berghofer
16-08-2011, 12:49
Tony,


but would a head phone amplifier not just amplify the computer analogue output

That’s true, a headphone amplifier does just that.

First you connect your computer to the DAC, either via Toslink/SPDIF or USB (this depends on your computer). The DAC converts your computer’s digital audio signals to analogue signals and delivers these signals to standard RCA outputs. Next you connect the DAC’s analogue output to the headphone amplifier’s input, and finally the headphone to the amplifier’s headphone socket.

When using the Beresford Caiman, you can omit the headphone amplifier and plug the headphone directly into the Caiman’s headphone socket. Depending on your personal claims, the kind of music you prefer and last but not least on the headphone you use, this might be all you need to enjoy your music in quite good quality.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/dac_amp_cans.jpg

With my type of headphones (Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 Ω and occasionally AKG K701) I think the performance of a stand-alone headphone amplifier is superior to the Caiman’s headphone section, but of course your mileage may vary.

Werner.

wee tee cee
16-08-2011, 13:02
Werner,
Thanks for the explanation,If I get on with the basic set up I may progress to something a little more sophisticated.
Regards Tony.

Alex_UK
16-08-2011, 13:05
I think Tony will be more than pleased with the Fiio E7 - don't forget (and no disrespect meant) but Tony is "only" using £26 headphones (good though the Senny HD 202's undoubtedly are for the money) so spending hundreds is going to be false economy, in my opinion, until/if he decides to upgrade further.

slate
16-08-2011, 15:18
Tony
I don't think that you mentioned which laptop you have and which connections it offers...
Well you have made a purchase, but FYI on some laptops there is actually a Toslink/SPDIF hiding inside the out minijack.
That is eg the case with my Vaio; I wasn't aware of this concept until I noticed the red light inside. To use that feature a small converter is needed.

wee tee cee
17-08-2011, 08:16
Slate,
The lap top is a dell.It only has a 3.5mm headphone plug or usb.I run usb to mf V link/mf m1 dac so a optical/co-ax or rca feed were all a possibility but the sheer convenience/flexibility and price of the dac/amp swung it for me.As alex said I am just taking tentative steps at the moment.I will see if I like walking before I go for a run.......

wee tee cee
26-08-2011, 01:35
I received the sennheisers and fiio dac/amp pretty quick and got to work giving them a bit of burn in.The headphones are really good straight into the lap top but sound awfull when run through the fiio fed via usb.
I have ordered the i pod cable to see if it improves my sons touch but to be honest the lap top sounds far better just using the 3.5mm output.
Maybe Im doing something wrong,but the fioo just sounds muddy/boomy and restricted ie quite shite......

Alex_UK
26-08-2011, 08:12
Oh dear! I'm wondering if there is something wrong with Fiio or the setup - it has received pretty much universal praise, and certainly not described as sounding "awful" anywhere I've read... :scratch:

wee tee cee
26-08-2011, 11:25
Oh dear! I'm wondering if there is something wrong with Fiio or the setup - it has received pretty much universal praise, and certainly not described as sounding "awful" anywhere I've read... :scratch:Alex,
I only have the aforementioned senheiser hd 202,a pair if sennheiser in ear,a pair of shure in ear and a pair of phillips in ear to compare.Maybe with more sophisticated or harder to drive cans the fiio might work.I tried the usb connection utilising the dac/amp and in addition to this there is aux jack plug that just utilises the amp section.Both connections are really disappointing.The amp goes really loud if need be,my lap top can drive all my headphones loud enough for me.I left it playing for maybe 20hrs to burn it in but its original sonic characteristics havent changed much.Unless it does something positive with the touch when the cable arrives Ill do you a deal on it.
Regards Tony.

StanleyB
27-08-2011, 06:54
I'll be most interested in your findings Tony. If you lived close by I would have passed by and have a listen to that headphone DAC you bought. I am thinking of releasing a similar, but slightly more capable device. But due to the available power rail limitation the headphone output swing can't compete against say a Caiman headamp output. So 300 Ohms HD650 cans don't go very loud. But my 25 Ohms MDR-F1 sounds quite good.

I am wondering if your recent purchase has a similar limitation. Keep us posted.

wee tee cee
27-08-2011, 10:40
I received the I pod adaptor and tried it with my sons touch,yes it goes helluva loud but doesn't really improve on the sound. I felt it was broadly similar sound wise(not very good), whereas with the lap top they're is a noticeable drop in quality.
Stan,
PM me your address and I will send it to you for a listen,maybe with harder to drive cans it might come into its own.
Regards Tony.

StanleyB
27-08-2011, 10:42
OK Tony, will do. Cheers :cool:.

wee tee cee
08-09-2011, 11:17
Got a gatorized caiman which is in the process of burning.As a head phone amp it is excellent.My sennhiesers are easy to drive so it goes plenty loud euough for me.Both myself and my son had a listen to it and both agreed it was the best sound we had ever heard through headphones.
The dac itself has eclipsed my MF M1 which hasn't been switched back on.

StanleyB
09-09-2011, 08:12
Got a gatorized caiman which is in the process of burning.As a head phone amp it is excellent.
Even more of a bargain with the AoS member's discount ;).

DSJR
09-09-2011, 10:42
With my type of headphones (Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 Ω and occasionally AKG K701) I think the performance of a stand-alone headphone amplifier is superior to the Caiman’s headphone section, but of course your mileage may vary.

Werner.

Werner, is your Caiman fitted with the Gator?

bobbasrah
09-09-2011, 11:56
Tony, if your DAC is not sounding better than the cheaper Dell onboard sound to buds or phones there must be something seriously wrong with the DAC or it's setup on the laptop.

I would concur with many here that you will get greater clout and presence with almost any amplifier, and there are plenty of alternatives, unless it's a dodgy deal from a certain Glasgow Market...

My own DAC drives the 600ohm Beyers adequately without being earth shaking, but via the 20 year old Pioneer receiver really raises the stakes in audio headroom.
That said, I would still prefer a clear source first, then deal with the power later.

Werner Berghofer
09-09-2011, 12:32
Dave,


is your Caiman fitted with the Gator?

yes, all three of them have been upgraded with Gator boards, but I use them strictly as DACs since I have a decent stand-alone headphone amplifier.

Werner.

degsy
09-09-2011, 15:23
Even more of a bargain with the AoS member's discount ;).

OK Stan,

I'll bite........how much is the discount on a new gatored caiman?

Derek:):)

StanleyB
09-09-2011, 15:55
You have PM :).

Alex_UK
09-09-2011, 17:48
Stan - are you trying out Tony's Fiio? Thoughts?