View Full Version : Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits?
The e-petition is gaining ground rapidly - should you be interested, it's here:
e-petition (https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337)
It has passed the 100,000 signatures required, which means it now must be considered over its suitability for debate in the commons.
This is an interesting browse as well - View all e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions?order=desc&sort=count&state=open)
The Grand Wazoo
12-08-2011, 23:05
Well, let's consider this option shall we?
What happens if you remove their benefits?
Do they turn to more crime?
Will you have to put their kids in care?
Will you end up having to house them in jail at £10k per week?
What does that lot cost?
It's not so simple is it?
There are no easy solutions to any of this Chris, we are faced with something unprecedented in our history. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the petition, just pointing out it's presence, as we seemed to have quite a few lynch mobs in the thread about the unrest.
It's actually quite sad that something like it even exists :(
The Grand Wazoo
12-08-2011, 23:19
No I know exactly what you mean, Tim - the whole thing is incredibly complicated & I apologise if you thought I was having a dig. That wasn't my intention.
I was just trying to offer a bit of perspective and context, because so many people I have discussed this with seem to think that they know exactly how this happened, and they know how to sort it all out, without having considered all of the issues. And I only raised a few of those issues here.
No I know exactly what you mean, Tim - the whole thing is incredibly complicated & I apologise if you thought I was having a dig. That wasn't my intention.
No offence taken or apology needed Chris. I personally think there isn't a solution and we can never really go back to how things were decades ago, we are too far down the road. The only thing we can do now is try to find a workaround, as it's an unsolvable problem because of the make up of our society. You cannot undo decades of mismanagement, it's too late and we missed the boat around 20 years ago IMO.
Beechwoods
13-08-2011, 06:08
One thing that for sure is the whole notion of a 'social contract' with rights and responsibilities appears to have utterly disappeared in the space of three generations. Until that is remedied, things ain't looking like they're gonna get fixed anytime soon.
Part of the problem is that nobody has role models any more. The filthy rich are only interested in looking after themselves and openly doing their level best in avoiding paying any taxes into this country. The entire media is infatuated with "celebrity" and delights is publishing stories about some shit-for-brains no talent non-entity bimbo sunning herself with her new chap on a luxury yacht at some exotic far-flung island and has worn a different bikini every day. Yes, true, a different bikini each day! I find that rather distasteful to be honest, being stuck here in this cold damp country and cannot afford to hire a rowing boat for an hour, let alone a luxury yacht, so I don't care much to read that sort of crap to be honest.
Politicians, police officers, councillors, judges, you name it, they have all been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar, are both lawmakers and lawbreakers too, so if these pillars of society are getting fat through dishonest means and some huge sums are involved to boot, so what does that say to the people that don't have that much position, power and authority? The NHS and MOD has wasted SQUILLIONS on useless computer systems and duff equipment, yet nobody has been locked up for that theft of money from the public purse have they? Dual standards yet again :steam:
As for the solutions, well the media needs it's balls kicking savagely for the fixation with "celebrity", the sexualisation of very young children, then the same for makers of computer games where sadistic sex, gratuitous violence, gang and gun culture are all stamped out - they should NEVER be incorporated into "games" where the players are likely to be impressionable minors. No wonder they think everyone who gets shot and knifed are able to get up and walk away without consequences. The music industry is no better either. Stop glamourising alcohol consumption and treat it for what it is - a poison, so that children are not brought up into a culture where getting pissed is acceptable behaviour. Down here in Newquay parents are sending their kids as young as 12 and 3 down on holiday alone loaded up with plenty of alcohol for a "good time".
I have always seen benefits as a means of maintaining a set of low order public pacifiers (In the same way the Russians used alcohol) that enables people to JUST keep them away from lawlessness. Take the benefits away and the game rules change instantly when you are homeless cold and hungry, so your respect for other people's property and livelihoods takes on a completely different meaning. Don't knock the benefits system unless you want your house broken into or being mugged at knifepoint in the streets by someone who has no money, no food and no security.
worthingpagan
13-08-2011, 08:35
If they were all beaten to death then their claims would automatically end, job done :idea:
If they were all beaten to death then their claims would automatically end, job done :idea:
Make this man Prime Minister :lolsign:
The Vinyl Adventure
13-08-2011, 09:00
I'll conceived snap reaction.. Always a winner! ...
I'd like to start a petition to prevent petitions from being started too soon after things happen!
Im a lefty, an I said some pretty right wing things whilst all that was happening ... The thing is, it's human nature, anger breeds anger, breeds not using the grey matter!
The issue is, people are often to keen on sticking to thier guns! In a moment of anger they say "take away their benefits" without thinking of the consequences ... Once said, people stick to thier guns! Especially this soon after ...
100,000 angry people (which there definitely is in the country at the mo) tick yes to this... The government with thier standard vote winning snap reaction approach go "oooo that's a 100000 votes if we do that... Sounds a good idea"
Simplistic and cynical view of our government, maybe ... But with from camrona recent u-turn approach to things when people dnt like what he says ... I tend to think it's a possibility ...
Prevention, not cure is the answer here ... Some long term policy is the answer not daft reactionary shite like this!
I agree. If the police had not made revisions to the stop and search laws which they needed to, places like Brixton would have turned into a getto rather than the great community it is today.
Its because some people in the community have been ignored and criminalised that you have the tinder box we have today.
Im all for punishing these idiots but punishment doesnt need to be forced impoverishment.
worthingpagan
13-08-2011, 12:39
I'll conceived snap reaction.. Always a winner! ...
I'd like to start a petition to prevent petitions from being started too soon after things happen!
Im a lefty, an I said some pretty right wing things whilst all that was happening ... The thing is, it's human nature, anger breeds anger, breeds not using the grey matter!
The issue is, people are often to keen on sticking to thier guns! In a moment of anger they say "take away their benefits" without thinking of the consequences ... Once said, people stick to thier guns! Especially this soon after ...
100,000 angry people (which there definitely is in the country at the mo) tick yes to this... The government with thier standard vote winning snap reaction approach go "oooo that's a 100000 votes if we do that... Sounds a good idea"
Simplistic and cynical view of our government, maybe ... But with from camrona recent u-turn approach to things when people dnt like what he says ... I tend to think it's a possibility ...
Prevention, not cure is the answer here ... Some long term policy is the answer not daft reactionary shite like this!
I'm also a socialist, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere! In the early 80's, following on from the Brixton riots, people said they felt marginalised and unheard, that was allegedly part of their justification for the riots. Since then we have developed community relations for all creeds and religions to have a voice and be heard. Media coverage across all cultures. Police have been disempowered with sus & s&s, to help people from so called disaffected backgrounds feel less intimidated by them when on the streets. HOW MUCH MORE DO PEOPLE WANT? They are still not happy.
Do you honestly believe that a softly softly liberal approach is the right way to deal with this? What if it had been your business that was destroyed, or your brother or father killed? Would you still feel the same then? I doubt it somehow. There are lots of complications to be taken in to account whilst moving forward in tackling the wider issues, I agree. But I also firmly believe a clear message needs to be sent out to those who commit this kind of behaviour, that it won't be tolerated.
Why should working people pay higher taxes to fund those who can't or won't be bothered to take responsibility for their own situations and behaviour, and still be expected to provide for these same people? It's not fair and it sends out compltely the wrong message to those who are witnessing what happened and what will happen to those who carry out these crimes.
Techno Commander
13-08-2011, 13:11
H1TfZBjgG6c
The Vinyl Adventure
13-08-2011, 19:15
I'm also a socialist, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere! In the early 80's, following on from the Brixton riots, people said they felt marginalised and unheard, that was allegedly part of their justification for the riots. Since then we have developed community relations for all creeds and religions to have a voice and be heard. Media coverage across all cultures. Police have been disempowered with sus & s&s, to help people from so called disaffected backgrounds feel less intimidated by them when on the streets. HOW MUCH MORE DO PEOPLE WANT? They are still not happy.
Do you honestly believe that a softly softly liberal approach is the right way to deal with this? What if it had been your business that was destroyed, or your brother or father killed? Would you still feel the same then? I doubt it somehow. There are lots of complications to be taken in to account whilst moving forward in tackling the wider issues, I agree. But I also firmly believe a clear message needs to be sent out to those who commit this kind of behaviour, that it won't be tolerated.
dont get me wrong ... punish the buggers and punish them good
me and Hannah's dad were talking about this ... he is a little to the right (sometimes a lot) and we came up with some pretty decent ideas for punishment ...
the best was digging flood defences, by hand, chained together in a long line all wearing tutu's, then broadcast it live on tv, invite people to text in comments and then relay the comments to them ... only the negative ones of course ...
we were joking of course ... but pretty heavy punishment that is constuctive to society was the general order of the day!
Why should working people pay higher taxes to fund those who can't or won't be bothered to take responsibility for their own situations and behaviour, and still be expected to provide for these same people? It's not fair and it sends out compltely the wrong message to those who are witnessing what happened and what will happen to those who carry out these crimes.
Im not talking about pandering to these people ... im talking about fixing major issues with our society ...
Young moms would be a target ... its young single moms with no idea how to raise their children that and bringing this sort of folk in to our society.
look to the sorce of the issues ...
you also have to remember that the people stupid enough to do this shite are not smart enough to think about the consequences .. there is little that will serve as a deterrent that wouldn't just give them more to get in a shit about and inevitably cause more issues ...
not to mention the fact that if you take away thier benefits they wil no doubt turn to further crime and end up in prison and cost us more in the end ...
tannoy man
13-08-2011, 19:43
I'm also a socialist, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere! In the early 80's, following on from the Brixton riots, people said they felt marginalised and unheard, that was allegedly part of their justification for the riots. Since then we have developed community relations for all creeds and religions to have a voice and be heard. Media coverage across all cultures. Police have been disempowered with sus & s&s, to help people from so called disaffected backgrounds feel less intimidated by them when on the streets. HOW MUCH MORE DO PEOPLE WANT? They are still not happy.
Do you honestly believe that a softly softly liberal approach is the right way to deal with this? What if it had been your business that was destroyed, or your brother or father killed? Would you still feel the same then? I doubt it somehow. There are lots of complications to be taken in to account whilst moving forward in tackling the wider issues, I agree. But I also firmly believe a clear message needs to be sent out to those who commit this kind of behaviour, that it won't be tolerated.
Why should working people pay higher taxes to fund those who can't or won't be bothered to take responsibility for their own situations and behaviour, and still be expected to provide for these same people? It's not fair and it sends out compltely the wrong message to those who are witnessing what happened and what will happen to those who carry out these crimes.
If Carlsberg wrote posts......................GREAT STUFF
sq225917
13-08-2011, 20:04
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
frankly all criminals should be put to work for the benefit of community, all of them, from crooked MP's to rioters.
Do you honestly believe that a softly softly liberal approach is the right way to deal with this?
No it's not, but as we have done that for the last 3 decades, we as a society have created a problem we cannot solve now with a hard-line approach either - it doesn't work anymore as we have lost the core values we had when it did work. This is a societal problem we have created by allowing successive government's do the wrong thing and we never kicked off when they introduced ridiculous legislation. Where were the petitions then?
It's not the police, teachers, social workers or even the governement who are ultimately to blame, it's us as a collective society as we allowed it to get this bad, because before it if didn't effect us directly, we just winged about it then buried our head in the sand thinking it was someone else's problem...... well it's certainly our fricking problem now and we have finally woken up, but it's a bit bloody late!
Rant over..... now where's my beer :cool:
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2011, 20:27
Removing the only thing that keeps these dullards alive will just turn them to more criminality imo. They need to be shamed, & shamed in a big way! How that is done must be open to discussion..
If shaming them by putting their mugshots all over the web, papers etc doesn't work (or anything else we can think of) then i don't think there is a lot that can be done with them.
Maybe they should be taken on a cruise as i think i have mentioned previously, then dump them over the side of ship in the Pacific & feed the sharks ;) Do the planet a favour as sharks are in danger due to some to**ers need for shark fin soup :rolleyes:
Give them one chance, it's fair enough at the end of the day! After all they don't tend to give us much of one setting fire to property with reckless endangerment to life of human beings :steam: :rolleyes:
http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
Thanks for the link Simon, I nearly pi**ed myself laughing at some of the pictures I saw on that site :lol:
The egg and spoon race is a beauty :lol:
Thing Fish
13-08-2011, 20:54
They should have all their skin pealed off with a blunt razor and then be rolled in salt.
WOStantonCS100
13-08-2011, 21:55
Young moms would be a target ... its young single moms with no idea how to raise their children that and bringing this sort of folk in to our society.
look to the sorce of the issues ...
Let's not forget the willing sperm donors, conspicuous by absence...
One thing will be inescapable, if these folks don't have any hope for a future, they will never give a damn about the present. A repeat of history will be inevitable.
I tell you what, why don’t we do something different for a change.
It seems to me that in all this, the media, the politicians, other vested interest groups and now the contributors to the various internet discussions all get to use such events to either promote a particular agenda or get their catharsis from venting their anger and frustration on what are in effect faceless perpetrators.
What satisfaction does the victim get in such circumstances and how is the perpetrator to learn that there is a person who suffers from his or her actions, not some non identity on a news update?
Why not bring the perpetrator and victim together and allow them to communicate and let the victim decide on a suitable punishment?
It has been tried in modern times with surprising results and I believe certain Red Indian tribes among other apparently “primitive” cultures did much the same in seeking justice.
One might be tempted to think that the victims would scream for the harshest possible sentence but I think the outcome might surprise us all.
Somewhere inside us all is a need to understand why such things happen to us and while the criminal justice system takes all the control and decisions out of our hands as individuals we not only give up the considerable power we have to the state but also tend lose any responsibility for the states actions.
Despite all the rhetoric, somewhere inside us, the human being rather than the incited mob, there is a sense of justice I have always believed; its part of what has stopped us tearing each other to bits and taught us to cooperate. Some of the more cynical may say it is only fear of the state or higher power intervention and retribution that keeps us in order. I would like to believe if left to reflect without undue influence most of us resort to reason to explain a situation and reason is what I place my faith in.
As for the withdrawal of benefits; well it’s a stupid idea that just a few seconds thought should illustrate :mental:
worthingpagan
14-08-2011, 02:43
I tell you what, why don’t we do something different for a change.
It seems to me that in all this, the media, the politicians, other vested interest groups and now the contributors to the various internet discussions all get to use such events to either promote a particular agenda or get their catharsis from venting their anger and frustration on what are in effect faceless perpetrators.
What satisfaction does the victim get in such circumstances and how is the perpetrator to learn that there is a person who suffers from his or her actions, not some non identity on a news update?
Why not bring the perpetrator and victim together and allow them to communicate and let the victim decide on a suitable punishment?
It has been tried in modern times with surprising results and I believe certain Red Indian tribes among other apparently “primitive” cultures did much the same in seeking justice.
One might be tempted to think that the victims would scream for the harshest possible sentence but I think the outcome might surprise us all.
Somewhere inside us all is a need to understand why such things happen to us and while the criminal justice system takes all the control and decisions out of our hands as individuals we not only give up the considerable power we have to the state but also tend lose any responsibility for the states actions.
Despite all the rhetoric, somewhere inside us, the human being rather than the incited mob, there is a sense of justice I have always believed; its part of what has stopped us tearing each other to bits and taught us to cooperate. Some of the more cynical may say it is only fear of the state or higher power intervention and retribution that keeps us in order. I would like to believe if left to reflect without undue influence most of us resort to reason to explain a situation and reason is what I place my faith in.
As for the withdrawal of benefits; well it’s a stupid idea that just a few seconds thought should illustrate :mental:
"faceless perpetrators" many of those involved have been identified
"Why not bring the perpetrator and victim together and allow them to communicate and let the victim decide on a suitable punishment" why not indeed, restorative justice, revenge, or just 5 minutes alone with the crim with his hands tied?
"somewhere inside us, the human being rather than the incited mob, there is a sense of justice I have always believed" unfortunately many of these so called human beings have no idea of the concept of justice
"its part of what has stopped us tearing each other to bits and taught us to cooperate." Think you might find it's mainly rules, laws and punishments that have taught us to co operate, with an underlying fear of what might happen to us if we got caught not playing by the rules
"As for the withdrawal of benefits; well it’s a stupid idea that just a few seconds thought should illustrate" This is one of the few country's in the world that has a welfare state. If we can't afford it anymore, why should it be seen as anyone's right, least of all those who show scant regard for the rules of a civilized society?
"Why not bring the perpetrator and victim together and allow them to communicate and let the victim decide on a suitable punishment"
If someone burnt down my shop or house my suitable punishment would be to burn them down.
"somewhere inside us, the human being rather than the incited mob, there is a sense of justice I have always believed"
Hmm, maybe, maybe not...
"its part of what has stopped us tearing each other to bits and taught us to cooperate." Organized societies in the past existed without written laws - the Celts, for one. Group pressure to conform is what keeps things in line, not crime and punishment. Once the group pressure evaporates things soon collapse no matter how many laws or policemen you have.
"As for the withdrawal of benefits; well it’s a stupid idea that just a few seconds thought should illustrate" ?
Why pay benefits in cash? Issue them on a debit card that can be used in the major stores but only for essentials. For a lot of people benefits are just a nice cash supplement to their income from the black economy or from crime
.
Vinyleyes
14-08-2011, 16:18
A very good article here .. from an "anarchist" ..... it also touches on the idea of self policing .... people forget that with freedom .. comes responsibilty ...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boff-whalley-in-defence-of-anarchy-2336159.html
worthingpagan
14-08-2011, 17:21
.
'Twasn't me that wrote that, I just quoted it from the fella above & added my own reply :doh:
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