View Full Version : Original US model Shure SC35C
Thanks to Darren (Kiningin), who sourced them from the States, I'm about to take delivery of one of these babies (the other being Darren's):
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/663/shuresc35c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/shuresc35c.jpg/)
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/2572/shuresc35c2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/shuresc35c2.jpg/)
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9503/shuresc35c3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/shuresc35c3.jpg/)
As you can see, both cartridges come with a spare NOS original stylus, which is a nice bonus! :)
Like Darren, I was intigued when I read this post by 'Vinyl Junkee' on Vinyl Engine: http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21307
Used for all vinyl replay by the British Broadcasting Corporation from the early seventies until the seedy takeover ousted vinyl. Engineering carried out extensive tests over a period of time on the SC35C before using it, to ensure that it came up to their (at that time) very high standard in terms of sound quality, robustness and low record wear, 'cue burn' in particular.
To work properly each channel has to be loaded with a capacitance of 450pf, which typically means adding 220pf to the preamp input (both channels). Correctly loaded this cartridge gives very fine sound quality - it is actually the professional version of the esteemed V15.
Back in the early eighties we AB tested this against other professional cartridges including the Denon 103 coil and the Shure wiped the floor with all of them! We had a Kisiki Blue moving coil as a reference and there was no audible difference between this and the SC35C. Now of course all this was many years ago and today it is a very different story.
You can still buy an SC35C but it is a very different animal from the original model from Evanston. I am very fortunate in having 3 USA SC35Cs from the late seventies plus a V15IIIHE and the sound of the new is absolutely nowhere near the quality of the originals.
If you want to evaluate one - try and get an original US model, it will have USA printed on the body above the pins. The replacement stylus is a problem - don't go for one with 'Shure' printed in black on the front - it won't be a fake, but the quality will be so different from the earlier ones printed in white. This is the big problem, getting a decent replacement stylus, there are some NOS about but we use Jico in Japan - theirs are fine and as good as the originals.
Sorry to go on at length here, but I am a big fan of these cartridges. Just one last thing - conical stylus playing at 4.5 grammes! Shock horror I hear you cry - not a bit of it, I have loads of LPs played hundreds nay thousands of times and none have any trace of wear- in fact that bit of extra weight is ideal for dislodging minute particles of dried spittle which would cause a lighter cartridge to stick.
Full report, with pics, to follow.... I already own a 'basic' SC35C, which is good, but not overly special. However, I have fond memories of one I used in the 80s, which sounded fantastic, and WAY better than the one I have now.
Could this original US model sound as magical as I remember the one I used before did (and how VJ describes it on VE) and be another vintage cartridge marvel (and 'giant-killer') for the Marco-boy? All will be revealed soon, folks! ;)
Marco.
I think you'll like it Marco, but not sure (sorry :)) if I could take it these days, my ears being what they are...
The one I had for some time was a new one "borrowed" from the BBC stores back in the mid 80's, so no question of its pedigree (same box as that pistured). The treble was balanced rather like the M75-EJ/M-93E, rolling off quite noticably but not unpleasantly so and tracking at the suggested 4g IIRC. I don't think I can live with this balance nowadays, but again, I didn't load it hugely with capacitance and this may lift the treble somewhat.
Good luck Marco. The sound "should" have more power than the G800 for example and more substance. I understand there was an SC39 with better stylus, but have no experience of this and rely on Google for knowing it existed at all..
Cheers, Dave. I'll let you know how I get on, as no doubt will Darren :)
The one I had in the 80s also had that box and the same printed instructions inside, and it sounded big, ballsy and full of 'fun factor' (and bass was exceptional, with real 'heft' and drive), which is just the kind of sound I like, and I suspect that the uber-transparent, 'airy' and revealing nature of the valve MM phono stage in my Croft will open out its top-end nicely!
Regarding the G800, there is no shortage of power and substance with it in my system, where it sounds rather like a Denon DL-103, only better!! ;)
Marco.
kininigin
11-08-2011, 22:34
Well marco,i have had a quick listen,Tracking at 4.0g and you have a very good memory as it sounds exactly how you described it 'big, ballsy and full of 'fun factor'(and bass was exceptional, with real 'heft' and drive).
The 'newer' carts simply don't compare,and i get the feeling the nagaoka i've got will not get a lookin :eyebrows:
Still need to play around with setup,but this is exactly the type of sound i've been looking for,it does all the 'delicate' stuff as well from what i can hear.
I leave the more flowery review to marco :ner: as im rubbish at describing what i hear,all i know is,what i like,and so far in this early stage,me likey.
Oh dear, I've just pished my panties with excitement!! :eyebrows:
See if you can work out the sweet spot, in terms of VTF, before I fit mine, so I don't have to arse around too much... Try it a 3.5g, dude, and see what happens :cool:
Howz the top-end - not too rolled off?
Marco.
kininigin
11-08-2011, 22:49
Oh dear, I've just pished my panties with excitement!! :eyebrows:
See if you can work out the sweet spot, in terms of VTF, before I fit mine, so I don't have to arse around too much... Try it a 3.5g, dude, and see what happens :cool:
Howz the top-end - not too rolled off?
Marco.
:lolsign: don't get too excited,my system is a little bit more modest than yours and i have very little experience with other carts,trebal comes across as sweet and detailed to me,maybe marginaly 'splashy' but like i said need to set up properly yet.
I'll think you'll like it,you can confirm if i have terrible judgement in sound if not :lol:
EDIT:No it doesn't sound rolled off to me.
I'm sure I'll love it, dude - 'sweaty' treble rules!! :lol:
;)
Marco.
kininigin
11-08-2011, 23:00
I'm sure I'll love it, dude - 'sweaty' treble rules!! :lol:
;)
Marco.
What you talking 'bout willis ;)
Right im off to bed,i feel an all day session(is that spelt right :scratch:,im tired)
tommorow.
Ah, you've edited it now - lol!
Good news about the treble, to you, not sounding rolled off. Try reducing VTF a bit and see what happens. I'd like to know whether it *needs* 4g, or if you can get away with a bit less :)
Marco.
Well, mine has just arrived in the post - cheers, Darren! I won't get a chance to play with it until the weekend, though, so will report my findings here then :cool:
Marco.
kininigin
12-08-2011, 10:46
Well, mine has just arrived in the post! I won't get a chance to play with it until the weekend, though, so will report my findings here then :cool:
Marco.
Glad they have arrived ok,regarding the the slight rust on a couple of the pins,i used some very fine sandpaper and then some alcohol and they come up quite well.
Actually,i've just remembered,i've got some brasso wadding lying around somewhere,to get them nice and shiny.
I 've not had a play with vtf yet and im about to go out and buy some shambala tickets(festival for 3 days of hedonism :eyebrows:) so will try later.
Hi Darren,
I've got a special fibreglass pen, I use for cleaning the pins on valves, which will be ideal for that job. I'll finish things off then with some Blue Horizon contact cleaner, and it'll be job done! :)
I wouldn't advise using Brasso, as it's liable to leave some residue on the pins, after cleaning, which is difficult to completely remove.
You should get yourself one of the fibreglass pens - they're very handy and do a great job: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIBREGLASS-PEN-10-x-REFILL-MODELLING-SOLDERING-NEW-/170646376369?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement _Equipment_ET&hash=item27bb510fb
:cool:
Marco.
kininigin
12-08-2011, 11:22
Hi Darren,
I've got a special fibreglass pen, I use for cleaning the pins on valves, which will be ideal for that job. I'll finish things off then with some Blue Horizon contact cleaner, and it'll be job done! :)
I wouldn't advise using Brasso, as it's liable to leave some residue on the pins, after cleaning, which is difficult to completely remove.
You should get yourself one of the fibreglass pens - they're very handy and do a great job: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIBREGLASS-PEN-10-x-REFILL-MODELLING-SOLDERING-NEW-/170646376369?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement _Equipment_ET&hash=item27bb510fb
:cool:
Marco.
I should of known you'd be well on top of the situation ;)
Cheers for the link,they look perfect for the job.
kininigin
12-08-2011, 12:07
Tickets can wait :eyebrows:
I've got vtf at 3.0g and it sounds good,im going to stick with this for awhile.
Reading the paperwork that came with it,shure say it was tested with sme arms,are these high/medium/low mass arms?
Chances are in those days it was a 3009, given the age of the cartridge. The 3009 I would say is 'low to medium-mass', with its stock headshell.
I have a hunch that that the SC35C will like a bit of mass (as do most conical-tipped cartridges), so I'll be fitting it on one of my NOS high-mass headshells, in the Jelco, and starting VTF at 2.8g, working upwards if necessary. If I hear any mistracking at 3g or so, I'll up the downforce accordingly.
I'm not sure it needs any more than that for hi-fi use, as the 4.5g recommendation will likely only have been for extra stability in broadcasting studios. Such a high VTF, I reckon, would probably have dulled its high-frequency response.
Other than a spherical-tipped SPU, and juke box cartridges, I've yet to hear any cartridge that benefits in hi-fi use from such a high VTF.
Marco.
kininigin
12-08-2011, 12:31
I wasn't hearing much,if any difference between 4.0g and 3.0g so will stick with this then work down.
Im using the AT LS-12 you sold me which weighs the same as the stock jelco at 12g but feels alot more substantial and solid.
Out of curiousity,how long do you think the stylus needs to run in for?
Hi Darren,
You should hear a bit more top-end 'sparkle' with a significantly lower VTF...
The LS-12 headshell will be ideal for the job!
In terms of 'running-in' the stylus, sometimes a few album sides are enough, but other times it takes longer - much depends on the stylus type and the quality of diamond used.
You'll know when the sound begins to 'flesh out' and gain more body and texture, and when the top-end becomes less 'insistent' :)
Marco.
What happened to the Shure SC35 body I gave you Marco?
Cheers
I've still got it, Barry - why? :)
Marco.
I don't know if Shure's conical tips in the 80's were any better than the roughly polished bits of coal they made in the 70's, but a good few hours should sort that out with luck..
Don't be tempted to go too low in playing weight, otherwise you'll be as bad as I was at the time. I used 4g at the time, and I think the Beeb still had Gates decks with the heavy old Grey tonearm, a huge bit of ironmongery with a damped ball and cup stabilised unipivot bearing.
At some point, the BBC went over to SP10's with their own design of arm, using OM-Pro's which were regarded as "better." I have an Om-pro and also a GT, which sounds similar but in a 500 series body. Both mistrack a bit on difficult sibilant records which fine-line tips sail through with no audible dissssstortion...
Marco, you ought to have a current Stanton 500V3 as a modern reference, I think it's a fine cartridge still and tracks safely at 3g (the Ortofons say 4g and 4g it HAS to be!).
I've still got it, Barry - why? :)
Marco.
You need only have bought a new stylus. :)
Cheers
Yeah, but it wouldn't be a "proper" Shure stylus, would it?
I think Jico do one though..
OOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!
I WONDER :lol:
http://stylus.export-japan.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1495
Well, curiosity got the better of me, so I fitted the SC35C into my medium-mass NOS Sansui headshell, added a 2g headshell weight (as a starting point in terms of optimising mass), set azimuth and VTA, dialled in 3g VTF, and cued-up a 12" single of ABC's 'The Look of Love', chosen because I know how it sounds inside out.
Recently, for cartridge and T/T evaluation purposes, I've been using Nick Gorham's utterly superb OTL tube headphone amp, in conjunction with my Koss Pro4AA headphones. I find that you can hear the sonic differences of minute adjustments to VTA, VTF, etc, much easier that way than listening externally through main speakers, so I set my 'normal' listening level (for MM cartridges) and let the needle hit the groove....
Well, I got the shock of my life, as the sound nearly blew my head off!! :eek:
This US model SC35C is rather 'juicy', in terms of output; it certainly pushes out more level than the G800 (and from memory the 'ordinary' SC35C), so I had to turn the volume down significantly to hear exactly what was going on, and when I did, BLOODY HELL, what was going on was seriously good!!
It's early days yet, as I need to get a proper handle on its sonic abilities, but at this stage I can say with confidence that this original US model is a totally different animal from the SC35C's Shure are currently producing, such as to make the any comparison ridiculous, and it is most likely up there with the best cartridges I've ever heard. VJ was right!
More later... :cool:
Marco.
You need only have bought a new stylus. :)
Cheers
When I get a chance, I'll try one the NOS Shure styli in the cartridge you gave me and see whether the HUGE difference in performance is down to the stylus or the 'USA made' cartridge itself, or both ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
12-08-2011, 20:06
I don't see how a change in stylus could increase the cartridge output... If it's louder then i'd suspect there are other differences, but what do i know :)
WOStantonCS100
12-08-2011, 20:29
I don't see how a change in stylus could increase the cartridge output... If it's louder then i'd suspect there are other differences, but what do i know :)
Wouldn't it be (in a MM cart) the differences in the strength/type of the magnet glued to the end of the cantilever? Even if the same magnet is used, depending on the diameter of the cantilever, I'm assuming the distance of the magnet to the coil would change as well as cause an increase or decrease in the "magnetic field" (right term?). I'm sure these differences are microscopic; but... ...it's a cartridge right? I'm no expert; just guessing.
When I got my Stanton modded by Soundsmith with a new cantilever and stylus it worked in reverse. The output dropped. Since the output was really high, it was no big deal. It also seems to make sense to me as the diameter of the ruby cantilever is considerably smaller than the original tree trunk cantilever, thus, the magnets would be further away from the coils (EDIT: Perhaps I should have said "the gap between magnet and coils would be 'larger' ")?
Reid Malenfant
12-08-2011, 20:39
Ah, cheers Biff :eyebrows: That makes rather a lot of sense chap, i stand corrected...
kininigin
12-08-2011, 20:45
Well,i have put a few more hours on it and it simply gets better and better.
It's really addictive,and playing some super cleanly produced drum and bass,is quite frankly scary :eyebrows: the control on bass lines,well i nearly creamed my pants.I can only imagine what it would sound like on marco's system :eek:
Ever since marco sold me his 'modern' SC35C and i'd read the post from vj on vinyl engine,i have been on the lookout for one of these for probaly over a year,im so glad i perserviered as it is the best cart i've heard(which to be fair wouldn't be too hard as i've only heard a few budget ones).
If it sounded as good as vj said it did,it was my intention was to get a jico SAS for it,this will probaly happen in the near future :eyebrows:
Incidently,i bought a jico replacement for the modern SC35C and used it for awhile but it was nothing to shout about,so if like vj says,it's as good as a NOS shure,then the two carts are totaly different.
EDIT: Just thought i could just swap the NOS and jico to see if they sound the same.Will have to wait to tomorrow.
Hi Biff,
Wouldn't it be (in a MM cart) the differences in the strength/type of magnet glued to the end of the cantilever? Even if the same magnet is used, depending on the diameter of the cantilever, I assuming the distance of the magnet to coil would change as well cause an increase or decrease in the "magnetic field" (right term?). I'm sure these differences are microscopic; but... ...it's a cartridge right? I'm no expert; just guessing.
When I got my Stanton modded by Soundsmith with a new cantilever and stylus it worked in reverse. The output dropped. Since the output was really high, no big deal. It also seems to make sense to me as the diameter of the ruby cantilever is considerably smaller than the original tree trunk cantilever, thus, the magnets would be further away from the coils?
Sounds feasible to me!
I can definitely confirm that the vintage US model SC35C is significantly 'louder' than the modern version, as I've just installed the latter (the one Barry gave me, fitted with a modern Shure stylus) in another headshell, and have done the comparison. And not only is it 'louder', it makes the modern version sound like a cheap toy!
The difference in performance too is down to both the cartridge itself AND the supplied stylus, as even when swapping the supplied stylus on the modern version, with the NOS US one, it doesn't transform it into the 'giant-killer' that the vintage model is, so what's inside the latter (magnet, generator, or whatever) is definitely of a different level of quality compared to what's used inside the modern SC35C.
Again, like in so many other areas of hi-fi, there is clear evidence of quality standards having significantly dropped since Shure first released the SC35C! :rolleyes: It's no coincidence I feel that the modern version lacks the words "Made in the USA" printed on the body, above the cartridge pins, so goodness knows where the cartridges are made these days.... China, perhaps?
Back to sound quality, and this cartridge sounds really rather special, especially since I've increased VTF to 3.5g, which I reckon is where the sweet spot lies, although this will vary a little from system to system. Applying much more downforce than that, results in the sound thickening and becoming 'plummy', so if the BBC tracked their SC35Cs at the recommended 4.5g (or above), it might explain why some of their music broadcasts then sounded distinctly veiled!
When tracking optimally, at around 3.5g, the vintage SC35C sounds anything BUT that!
I need to try it with different types of music, to see if it's capable of subtlety and finesse with more challenging genres, but so far with rock, pop and dance music, it is utterly beguiling, and combines sledgehammer bass, which is sphincter-tight, weighty and massively extended, with a mellifluous, highly communicative midrange, and a detailed, 'airy' sounding top-end, that has a wide-open clarity, yet is never fatiguing. Heady and highly entertaining stuff indeed....
It must be said - this cartridge is a seriously fun listen, and an utter, UNMITIGATED BARGAIN... I have heard £1000 MC cartridges sound worse!! :)
Right, I'm off to spin more tunes... I will be listening to the vintage US Shure SC35C, probably into the early hours of the morning, with a wide variety of musical genres, and will report tomorrow with more detailed thoughts.
Laters! :cool:
Marco.
Note to Mr Malenfant - I haven't a clue about the "shape" of the magnetic circuit involved, but there have been comments that the Jico general Shure stylus replacements (not including the more bespoke SAS models) sound livelier than the originals. This could be due to all sorts I suppose, but I suspect the magnets may be more efficient and tubular in section, whereas the Shure originals were "diamond-shaped" in cross-section. This may not make any difference for all I know.
I know there have been negative comments regarding the Mexican made Shures, although the M44-7 (their highest output one I think) must still be selling, as it costs double that of the Stanton and Pickering models (who also do a juicy version of the 500/Red Hot Needle at least).
WOStantonCS100
13-08-2011, 08:01
...I can definitely confirm that the vintage US model SC35C is significantly 'louder' than the modern version, as I've just installed the latter (the one Barry gave me, fitted with a modern Shure stylus) in another headshell, and have done the comparison. And not only is it 'louder', it makes the modern version sound like a cheap toy...
...I need to try it with different types of music, to see if it's capable of subtlety and finesse with more challenging genres, but so far with rock, pop and dance music, it is utterly beguiling, and combines sledgehammer bass, which is sphincter-tight, weighty and massively extended, with a mellifluous, highly communicative midrange, and a detailed, 'airy' sounding top-end, that has a wide-open clarity, yet is never fatiguing. Heady and highly entertaining stuff indeed....
.
Hey Marco,
You know, the differences you're describing also sound as if they've modified the number of windings for the coil(s). If the original model has more windings than the new model that would support your findings of hotter output, fuller mids, more bass slam and perhaps slightly rolled off highs. In comparison, I would expect a cart with fewer windings to sound leaner overall in comparison. At least, that's the way it works with guitar pickups :) where the terms "overwound" or "underwound" are used quite frequently to give a hint as to their sonic signature. Maybe Shure's cost cutting measures include a reduction in the amount of magnet wire used per cartridge :rolleyes:; but, that is pure speculation on my part.
I wonder if Dominic Harper could take a new SC35C and rewind it to original spec??? :eyebrows:
A few more threads like these, Marco, and you'll be tossed out of the audiophile circle for good. ;)
Lol! :eyebrows:
Windings aside, I suspect that the quality of magnets used in the vintage model (perhaps Alnico?) is superior to what's fitted now in the current model.
That, and the quality of the stylus on the vintage model is in an altogether different league, the cumulative result of which is to consign the status of the modern item to that of no more than a mediocre budget cartridge, whereas the original US SC35C is a veritable vintage gem, and could compete with, and in many areas outperform, cartridges made today at many times the price of the £62 that I paid for it! ;)
It's no one-trick pony either. I was up until 3am this morning playing a variety of genres of music, from prog rock to jazz and classical, through to ambient and electronic, and whilst its talents are biased towards beat-driven music and jazz, it is no slouch with classical or choral, due in no small part to the quality of its stylus. It may be an 'old fashioned' conical tip, but it's a refined and high-quality one, which means that this cartridge is capable of subtlety, as well as balls-out 'sonic fireworks', when the music demands.
All in all, the original US model SC35C is a very welcome addition to my cartridge collection, and joins the ranks as another true 'giant-killer', high in SPPV, along with the G800, M3D, etc. Find one if you can, as quite simply, they don't make cartridges like this anymore, this side of £500! :cool:
Marco.
kininigin
13-08-2011, 12:42
Lol! :eyebrows:
Windings aside, I suspect that the quality of magnets used in the vintage model (perhaps Alnico?) is superior to what's fitted now in the current model.
That, and the quality of the stylus on the vintage model is in an altogether different league, the cumulative result of which is to consign the status of the modern item to that of no more than a mediocre budget cartridge, whereas the original US SC35C is a veritable vintage gem, and could compete with, and in many areas outperform, cartridges made today at many times the price of the £62 that I paid for it! ;)
It's no one-trick pony either. I was up until 3am this morning playing a variety of genres of music, from prog rock to jazz and classical, through to ambient and electronic, and whilst its talents are biased towards beat-driven music and jazz, it is no slouch with classical or choral, due in no small part to the quality of its stylus. It may be an 'old fashioned' conical tip, but it's a refined and high-quality one, which means that this cartridge is capable of subtlety, as well as balls-out 'sonic fireworks', when the music demands.
All in all, the original US model SC35C is a very welcome addition to my cartridge collection, and joins the ranks as another true 'giant-killer', high in SPPV, along with the G800, M3D, etc. Find one if you can, as quite simply, they don't make cartridges like this anymore, this side of £500! :cool:
Marco.
Yep have to agree with marco hear,it certainly does like beat-driven music,as i mainly listen to funk/afrobeat,electronic,dub,industrial and a touch of jazz,it's perfect for me.
When listening to my nagaoka MP110,i found myself losing interest in the music and not feeling engaged enough to keep my attention.Everything was there with the nag,but the presentation is on a different level with the US SC35C.I now feel like i can hear what the croft phono is capable of,and it is even more special than i previously thought.
I still have the G800 to play around with,just need to get a headshell,weight and a re-tipped stylus but am now thinking,that money could go towards a jico SAS for the SC35C,which may take it up another level.
How does the G800 compare to the SC35C marco?
Im getting the feeling,there's more to come from this cart in my system and now it's time to start thinking about speakers as my 'budget actives' whilst good for the money,maybe holding things back.Which way i want to go,active or croft power,with some 'vintage' speakers,i don't know yet.
How does the G800 compare to the SC35C marco?
Stand by for that comparison early next week! I just want to get to know the vintage SC35C better first :)
Marco.
kininigin
13-08-2011, 13:01
Stand by for that comparison early next week! I just want to get to know the vintage SC35C better first :)
Marco.
Ok,will do.I hold tight regarding the G800 for the time being,i don't want to spend money where it is potentially not really needed in my case.
Indeed, especially as you've still to buy that arm collar from me :eyebrows:
Only kidding! But the poor wee thing is getting very lonely and needs a new home ;)
Marco.
kininigin
13-08-2011, 13:15
Indeed, especially as you've still to buy that arm collar from me :eyebrows:
Only kidding! But the poor wee thing is getting very lonely and needs a new home ;)
Marco.
Oh yeah,forgot about that.I did say it'll have to wait till the end of the month :)
How much do you want for it? I might be able to get it sooner.
I'll PM ya, dude! :)
Marco.
If you haven't paid Marco for it by month-end, I'll probably have it for the Jelco I hope to get - one day......;)
kininigin
13-08-2011, 13:24
If you haven't paid Marco for it by month-end, I'll probably have it for the Jelco I hope to get - one day......;)
Bloody hell,the vultures are circling :ner:
Hurry hurry, Mrs Murray - grab it while you can!! :lol:
Marco.
Guys,
Just a quick update on the comparison I've done between both cartridges....After having lived with the Shure now for a few days, I've gotten a pretty good handle on its sonic and musical characteristics. First of all, having experimented at some length with VTF, the sweet spot in my system is definitely 3.5g, any more than that and you can definitely hear the sound start to thicken and become 'plummy' (the recommended 4.5g is simply ridiculous). So, Darren, if you're still using it at 3g, I'd up VTF to 3.5g, and see what you think :)
The Shure also likes some mass, and after much experimentation, the optimum to my ears is 13g, which is purely headshell mass, excluding mounting hardware. Including a 13g headshell, take it as a given that this cartridge needs a high-mass arm, in order to perform optimally, such as the 'studio tonearms' (EMTs and such like) it would've been partnered with in radio stations. For that, look in the region of 15g, excluding the aforementioned high-mass headshell.
With any less mass than this, the SC35C gets a little 'shouty' with highly modulated and/or closely-miked material, such as 'busy' pop music, female vocals and jazz instruments. For reference, it doesn't possess the 'air and space', delicacy or anything like the overall musical refinement of my SPU, or any quality low-output MC cartridge I've heard, which is to be expected. The Shure, after all, has its limits!
However, tracking at 3.5g, in a NOS Sansui headshell, with quality lead wires attached (I'm using VDH MCS-300 solid-core Matched Crystal Silver), on my Jelco SA-750 tonearm, the vintage Shure sails through, with aplomb, any genres of music you care to throw at it, although it is most certainly biased towards rock, pop and dance music, where it *really* shines and gives music an up-beat, 'boppy' and fun sound, full of vim & vigour. You can hear exactly why it was chosen as a broadcast cartridge in radio stations, playing mainly pop music, across the world. It does not in the least sound flat and rather rolled-off in the treble, like its modern counterpart.
There is, however, one more tweak to come. At the moment I'm using it in a NOS Sansui headshell, with added mass. The Sansui is a quality headshell, but it's not the *absolute* best, and so when I get my Fidelity Research S5 back from Neil (Dalek DL), who's currently borrowing it, it'll be interesting to hear what that brings to the party. I'm expecting a soupçon more solidity and refinement.
Substituting the Shure for the Goldring G800 is interesting....
The first most obvious thing one notices is that the Shure is a better tracker, as the G800 (fitted with a previously unused NOS Goldring conical sylus), tracking at 2.6g, tends to slightly emphasise sibilance, which can be a problem in cartridges fitted with spherical-tipped styli. However, it's far from disastrous, and only really noticeable with 's' sounds on closely-miked material. With the Shure, that effect is all but absent, and it sails through 'difficult' material that the G800 sometimes struggles with.
However, what also becomes obvious with prolonged listening is that the G800 has a nicer 'tone', making the Shure, in comparison, sound 'cooler' and a little more clinical. The bass of the Shure has more grip and extension, whereas with the G800, low frequencies are just a tad looser, but also have more 'analogue warmth', which suits jazz and classical music rather well.
In comparison to the G800, the Shure can sound slightly ragged and a little too 'insistent'. The midrange of the G800 is also marginally more refined, giving vocals in particular a 'creamier', more mellifluous, quality. It is also less 'rushed' in its overall presentation. Where the Shure is wearing its 'party hat' all the time, infectiously injecting joie de vivre in everything it tracks, the G800 is a little more reserved and less 'showy', but nonetheless, never less than entertaining with it.
In short, overall, the G800 has more musical finesse than the Shure, but how much of this effect is because it's currently fitted into a better quality headshell (My Audio Technica LT-12), is unknown. I'll know more when I get my FR S/5 back. The Shure is definitely the best choice for those who predominantly listen to rock, pop, and dance music, as its top-end 'sparkle', midrange alacrity and shpincter-tight, rhythmic, impactful and extended bass, make listening to 12" dance singles, for example, a huge grin-inducing experience. It's pretty much in that respect like no other cartridge I've heard, save something like a Denon DL-103R, through my modded Lentek MC head amp.
However, both the original US version Shure SC35C and Goldring G800 represent superb cartridge bargains, if you can find them, particularly equipped with NOS styli. If so, and they are partnered correctly, then with either one you'll be guaranteed excellent sonic performance and musical satisfaction from the respective genres that both cartridges excel in, so start hunting on eBay now!! :cool:
Marco.
That darned g800 won't let go will it? :lol: I honestly say that although the V15 IV in the old Techie 1500 is better, the G800 as you say, does have a rather captivating midband once the arm mass is optimised, and the bass is nothing like as bad as I remember it first time round, although reducing the tracking weight to around 2.25g - where I remember having it at the time (in 1972 FFS :eek:), causes all sorts of bass distortion...
Marco, PLEASE can I suggest you get yourself an AT110E with some spare pocket money, to use as a current reference that real world cartridge fans can refer to. This one seems smooth enough, is very arm friendly and has no nasties - I was shocked to see that the pleasant "sparkle" I like in the AT120E is apparently a 6db peak at 10KHz - cough - enough to upset many phono stages with suspect overload margins (the latest HFN or Choice has a cartridge test - these mags are all the same to me :().
Hi Dave,
That darned g800 won't let go will it? :lol:
It's very good, overall, but both cartridges excel in different ways with different material. I need to listen to the Shure in my FR headshell, before my findings become conclusive, to see which one I prefer between the two, or indeed if I just like both in different ways.
I honestly say that although the V15 IV in the old Techie 1500 is better, the G800 as you say, does have a rather captivating midband once the arm mass is optimised, and the bass is nothing like as bad as I remember it first time round, although reducing the tracking weight to around 2.25g - where I remember having it at the time (in 1972 FFS :eek:), causes all sorts of bass distortion...
I've not heard a V15 IV, only the Mark III, which I liked, but don't remember it having the captivating mid-band of the G800, which is its most alluring trait, and something which I value highly in the sonic presentation of cartridges. The SPU also shares this quality, as does the M3D, and indeed take it to an even higher musical level.
Like you, I've found the sweet-spot for VTF on the G800 to be around 2.6g, where bass is tight and tuneful, and everything upstream seems to click into focus.
Marco, PLEASE can I suggest you get yourself an AT110E with some spare pocket money, to use as a current reference that real world cartridge fans can refer to.
That's an excellent idea. I might well do that - it would be useful as a modern reference! :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
16-08-2011, 11:03
What is the comparison like with the M3D.
It's a bit more hi-fi sounding, Richard. The SC35C doesn't quite have the musical qualities or 'vintage tone' you and I value in the M3D and SPU. However, it tracks much better than the M3D, and so it works more effectively with a wider variety of music.
I can go into a little more detail in those respects if you wish.
However, if you feel like adding another vintage cartridge to your collection, I think you'd prefer the G800 :)
Marco.
A couple of (not very good) pics of the Shure in my NOS 1970s Sansui headshell:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1075/img0723f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/img0723f.jpg/)
Note the Blu-Tak, poking through the back of the headshell, to increase mass and dampen resonances - looks shite but works a treat! :eyebrows:
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4266/img0725eb.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/img0725eb.jpg/)
And no, azimuth isn't out - it's just the angle of the picture and the fact that the plastic stylus housing doesn't sit 100% straight inside the cartridge body :)
Marco.
kininigin
16-08-2011, 19:55
Guys,
Just a quick update on the comparison I've done between both cartridges....After having lived with the Shure now for a few days, I've gotten a pretty good handle on its sonic and musical characteristics. First of all, having experimented at some length with VTF, the sweet spot in my system is definitely 3.5g, any more than that and you can definitely hear the sound start to thicken and become 'plummy' (the recommended 4.5g is simply ridiculous). So, Darren, if you're still using it at 3g, I'd up VTF to 3.5g, and see what you think :)
Now the shure has had a few days to run-in,im finding it easier to hear changes in vtf.Im running it at 3.3g at the moment but will see what 3.5g brings to the party.
Guys,
The Shure also likes some mass, and after much experimentation, the optimum to my ears is 13g, which is purely headshell mass, excluding mounting hardware.
Do you think,it would be of benifit to add an extra gram or two to my headshell?
Im sure i can find some blu tak ;)
Only if you think that there may be a sonic advantage. Is there anything lacking in the presentation at the moment, and if so, what? :)
Marco.
kininigin
16-08-2011, 20:31
I have to say,i absolutly love the shure so far.Listening to some J.B's or 'the godfather of soul' james brown has become fun and funky,the way this music should be.
You cannot but help turn it up (not quite up to 75% though :eyebrows:) and bop around like a demented chicken.
The combination of the shure into the JAN GE 5751's in the croft,sounds like a good combo in my limited experience.
I think i will get the G800 up and running at some point,to see if i can hear the differences in 'Tone' and 'musicality' marco touched upon in his post.
Im still interested in what a SAS stylus can bring to the table.I wonder if it can bring that extra 'tone' and 'musicality'.
kininigin
16-08-2011, 20:43
Only if you think that there may be a sonic advantage. Is there anything lacking in the presentation at the moment, and if so, what? :)
Marco.
No not really,i suppose it's a case of suck it and see,but im happy with how it's sounding now,so probaly will leave it alone.
WOStantonCS100
16-08-2011, 21:51
...And no, azimuth isn't out - it's just the angle of the picture and the fact that the plastic stylus housing doesn't sit 100% straight inside the cartridge body :)...
:lol: There's a man who knows his audience!
When I get a chance, I'll try one the NOS Shure styli in the cartridge you gave me and see whether the HUGE difference in performance is down to the stylus or the 'USA made' cartridge itself, or both ;)
Marco.
I don't understand - were 'later' SC35s made for Shure on an OEM basis by another party?
Does the body of your Evanston sample differ to that of the one I gave you?
If when fitting your 'kosher' stylus into the second body makes little or no difference, would that imply the second body is genuine?
Cheers
Guys,
Just a quick update on the comparison I've done between both cartridges....After having lived with the Shure now for a few days, I've gotten a pretty good handle on its sonic and musical characteristics. First of all, having experimented at some length with VTF, the sweet spot in my system is definitely 3.5g, any more than that and you can definitely hear the sound start to thicken and become 'plummy' (the recommended 4.5g is simply ridiculous). So, Darren, if you're still using it at 3g, I'd up VTF to 3.5g, and see what you think :)
The Shure also likes some mass, and after much experimentation, the optimum to my ears is 13g, which is purely headshell mass, excluding mounting hardware. Including a 13g headshell, take it as a given that this cartridge needs a high-mass arm, in order to perform optimally, such as the 'studio tonearms' (EMTs and such like) it would've been partnered with in radio stations. For that, look in the region of 15g, excluding the aforementioned high-mass headshell.
With any less mass than this, the SC35C gets a little 'shouty' with highly modulated and/or closely-miked material, such as 'busy' pop music, female vocals and jazz instruments. For reference, it doesn't possess the 'air and space', delicacy or anything like the overall musical refinement, of my SPU, or any quality low-output MC cartridge I've heard, which is to be expected. The Shure, after all, has its limits!
However, tracking at 3.5g, in a NOS Sansui headshell, with quality lead wires attached (I'm using VDH MCS-300 solid-core Matched Crystal Silver), on my Jelco SA-750 tonearm, the vintage Shure sails through, with aplomb, any genres of music you care to throw at it, although it is most certainly biased towards rock, pop and dance music, where it *really* shines and gives music an up-beat, 'boppy' and fun sound, full of vim & vigour. You can hear exactly why it was chosen as a broadcast cartridge in radio stations, playing mainly pop music, across the world. It does not in the least sound flat and rather rolled-off in the treble, like its modern counterpart.
There is, however, one more tweak to come. At the moment I'm using it in a NOS Sansui headshell, with added mass. The Sansui is a quality headshell, but it's not the *absolute* best, and so when I get my Fidelity Research S5 back from Neil (Dalek DL), who's currently borrowing it, it'll be interesting to hear what that brings to the party. I'm expecting a soupçon more solidity and refinement.
Substituting the Shure for the Goldring G800 is interesting....
The first most obvious thing one notices is that the Shure is a better tracker, as the G800 (fitted with a previously unused NOS Goldring conical sylus), tracking at 2.6g, tends to slightly emphasise sibilance, which can be a problem in cartridges fitted with spherical-tipped styli. However, it's far from disastrous, and only really noticeable with 's' sounds on closely-miked material. With the Shure, that effect is all but absent, and it sails through 'difficult' material that the G800 sometimes struggles with.
However, what also becomes obvious with prolonged listening is that the G800 has a nicer 'tone', making the Shure, in comparison, sound 'cooler' and a little more clinical. The bass of the Shure has more grip and extension, whereas with the G800, low frequencies are just a tad looser, but also have more 'analogue warmth', which suits jazz and classical music rather well.
In comparison to the G800, the Shure can sound slightly ragged and a little too 'insistent'. The midrange of the G800 is also marginally more refined, giving vocals in particular a 'creamier', more mellifluous, quality. It is also less 'rushed' in its overall presentation. Where the Shure is wearing its 'party hat' all the time, infectiously injecting joie de vivre in everything it tracks, the G800 is a little more reserved and less 'showy', but nonetheless, never less than entertaining with it.
In short, overall, the G800 has more musical finesse than the Shure, but how much of this effect is because it's currently fitted into a better quality headshell (My Audio Technica LT-12), is unknown. I'll know more when I get my FR S/5 back. The Shure is definitely the best choice for those who predominantly listen to rock, pop, and dance music, as its top-end 'sparkle', midrange alacrity and shpincter-tight, rhythmic, impactful and extended bass, make listening to 12" dance singles, for example, a huge grin-inducing experience. It's pretty much in that respect like no other cartridge I've heard, save something like a Denon DL-103R, through my modded Lentek MC head amp.
However, both the original US version Shure SC35C and Goldring G800 represent superb cartridge bargains, if you can find them, particularly equipped with NOS styli. If so, and they are partnered correctly, then with either one you'll be guaranteed excellent sonic performance and musical satisfaction from the respective genres that both cartridges excel in, so start hunting on eBay now!! :cool:
Marco.
Fantastic review Marco - you ought to do more of this sort of thing; just leave the running of the Forum to your lieutenants!
Any chance there might be a similar comparative review between your SPU and an EMT (both fitted with spherical tips)? :eyebrows:
Cheers
Hi Barry,
I don't understand - were 'later' SC35s made for Shure on an OEM basis by another party?
I'm not sure, but what I can tell you is that the words 'Made in USA', printed on the cartridge body, above the output pins on the vintage original US model, are not present on the SC35C cartridge body you gave me.
And given the huge disparity in audio performance between the two (both with the cartridges themselves and their respective styli), recent quality production standards at Shure have obviously lowered considerably, and so one wonders if them stopping printing 'Made in USA' on current SC35Cs is indicative of manufacturing no longer taking place in the US, and perhaps instead being located somewhere else, like China, in order to keep costs down?
Does the body of your Evanston sample differ to that of the one I gave you?
Only in terms of the lack of 'Made in USA' being printed on it. Otherwise, on the surface, they are identical.
If when fitting your 'kosher' stylus into the second body makes little or no difference, would that imply the second body is genuine?
No. When fitting the 'kosher' stylus into the second body it improves the sound compared to what it would have been with a modern Shure stylus fitted (the type with 'Shure' in black print written on it - an original stylus has 'Shure', written in white), but the sound is not as good as it is when both the stylus and body are original Evanston items, which indicates that not only is the stylus on current models of inferior quality, but perhaps the magnet assembly or coil windings inside the cartridge itself.
In short, sonically, they are competely different beasts!
I trust that this fully explains the situation :)
Marco.
Fantastic review Marco - you ought to do more of this sort of thing; just leave the running of the Forum to your lieutenants!
Any chance there might be a similar comparative review between your SPU and an EMT (both fitted with spherical tips)? :eyebrows:
Cheers, mate! One does one's best... :)
As for the latter, quite possibly, but much depends on my available time. The SC35C vs. G800 review was completely spontaneous, and tripped off my laptop this morning, when I was in the mood, whilst having my breakfast! :cool:
Marco.
kininigin
17-08-2011, 17:34
Hurry hurry, Mrs Murray - grab it while you can!! :lol:
Marco.
Collar turned up today(sorry dave :)) and is now fitted,cheers marco.
Nice bit of kit and now vta stays the same,across the whole record,adding a touch more seperation and a feeling of solidity to the soundstage,which is most welcome.
Collar turned up today(sorry dave :)) and is now fitted,cheers marco.
:lol:
I know Shure started making styli (at least) in Mexico, but if the bodies sound so different, there must be proper reasons WHY - such as different coil windings etc. This MAY have been intentional you know, in an attempt to flatten the dull balance, they may have taken the weight and power away to a degree in balance. the V15XMR gave more "audiophool weght" to the sound, but wasn't strictly "accurate" as the VMR and Ultra 500 possibly were. The HiFi fraternity preferred it though I believe, so they stuck with it. Whether the change to "XMR" corresponded to the move to Mexico, I don't know.
Anyone wanting to know what Marco & co are going on about, try an M75-EJ, or 70-EJ, or 91E, which has a more secure stylus mounting IMO. They sound very similar I think, but offer better tracking on more modern cuts I feel, tracking at a more "normal" 1.8g or so.
This MAY have been intentional you know, in an attempt to flatten the dull balance, they may have taken the weight and power away to a degree in balance.
There's definitely no lack of weight or power with the vintage SC35C; in fact it is rather prodigious in that respect, with low frequencies having extension and gravitas, when the music demands, and the top-end is as a sweet as a nut, but open and texturally detailed, too...
The more I listen to this cartridge, with all sorts of different music, the more I love it. Today I spent hours listening to some 50s and 60s music, from classic musicals to Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Tom Jones, just to test it with different material from rock and pop. It sounded rich, sonorous and schmaltzy, and as addictive as a glass of vintage Sassicaia!
Its musical presentation is utterly wonderful, capturing in particular the gorgeously rich tone of those awesome valve-influenced mid-50s Sinatra recordings on Capitol. The vintage SC35C is currently forming a symbiotic partnership with the valve MM phono stage in my Croft, especially with it having been recently fitted with a lovely sounding dusty pair of NOS 1945 Tung Sol 6SU7GTY radio broadcast tubes - sheer sonic bliss!
The biggest compliment I can pay the Shure is that, at the moment, I'm in no hurry whatsoever to return to my SPU!! :eek:
Marco.
kininigin
20-08-2011, 09:55
Glad your enjoying it marco,this is easily the best £62 i have ever spent ;)
Highly recommended,if you can get one,i'd snap it up as quick as you can.It took me over a year to get one though,and had to place a wanted ad in the end,as ebay ect was not very succesfull.
My system is now nearing where i want it to be,the technics can wait for major upgrades(bearing,platter) till well into next year while i decide which route to take.I probaly try some isonoes and that will be it.
Croft pre,is going nowhere :eyebrows: so just need to address my speaker issue.The tapco's im using for the money are very good imo,and complement the shure's capabilities quite well,but they still have there limits,which i feel have now been reached (in the d.i.y. section i have posted about changing caps in the monitors but this was before i got the shure).
Could any reccomend some passive speakers that would work with a croft pre/power and play to the shure's strenght's? Im thinking at least 8" drivers,maybe sealed and either vintage or modern.
Active wise i've been looking at Acoustic Energy AE22's which tick alot of box's for me,but not sure how much better they would be over what i have.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may08/articles/acousticenergyae22.htm
Sorry for the thread drift :)
WOStantonCS100
21-08-2011, 03:56
...I know Shure started making styli (at least) in Mexico, but if the bodies sound so different, there must be proper reasons WHY - such as different coil windings etc. This MAY have been intentional you know, in an attempt to flatten the dull balance, they may have taken the weight and power away to a degree in balance...
That certainly makes sense. Hopefully, they would have done it for those reasons and not just to save some quid on magnet wire.
Thing is, it's the current SC35Cs that sound rather dull in balance, not the earlier models, so Dave's (undoubtedly logical) assertion is unfortunately the wrong way round ;)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
24-08-2011, 13:51
Where's this craze (craze ?) for MM, and vintage MMs at that, coming from? I just ordered a vintage Stanton 681 to see what the fuss is about.
Hi Peter,
Because they spank the pants off of many cartridges made these days, and often some pretty expensive ones (if you're not into a clinical 'hi-fi' type of sound). The Stanton should be rather nice, and similar in balance, sonically, to my Pickering XV-15 625E. Let us know how you get on with it :)
Marco.
Amazing how popular the bass up-treble down balance is becoming in certain quarters here. Anyone would think the speakers used have too much HF screaming around :ner: :lol:
I can't afford nor justify it, but I've just bought a NOS VN15E for my v15 mk2 body. This was renowned for it's "severe" treble dip (there was an article on modifying the Quad 33 phono card to correct this), although I wonder if it's not the same as the M75-ED?
The thing about many modern cartridges is that they've attempted to tame the obvious excesses out of the old mm models of yesteryear. Some of the high-output MC's point the way in this and I remember the Dynavector 10X IV and V as well as the Denon DL110/160 as being just what Marco would love (I reckon) as a bridge between old and new, keeping the ballsy bass but with some treble as well.
I had a quick sesh with the V15 III (new original stylus) and my favourite old Ortofon M20FL Super, both a great match to the Dual 701. The Ortofon is marvellous up top, with clarity but no stridency at all. The bass in the Dual is clean with little to none of the bloat which afflicted the higher compliance VMS20 and 30 models (the VMS30 sort of replaced the M20FL Super I think). The V15 III is a funny one though (uses the "LM" mount into the Duad shell), the upper mid can sometimes be relentless with some pressings (but not all) and although the bass is tighter and not as meaty as the Ortofon, the way one can separate out kick drums from plucked bass so easily is highly addictive and sort-of Decca like - the Decca has more drama though...
The Stanton 681EEE I have is refined and doesn't appear dull, but the bass in this deck is soft when compared to the two above. I do remember that in late '74, when I started my audio career proper, the V15 III was bypassed by many of the staff in favour of the 681EEE, ADC XLM (used best in the Transcriptors Fluid arm at well under a gramme) or the Ortofon M15E (Super). The SC35 wasn't around then and the M44 and 55 series, of which there were many models (of M44's), were regarded as budget models like the Goldring G800 and newly launched 820's. All this before the MC invasion (the SL15 Ortofons were well loved but judged too quirky for the mainstream I remember)
Amazing how popular the bass up-treble down balance is becoming in certain quarters here. Anyone would think the speakers used have too much HF screaming around...
Lol - no such thing here, squire!
One could also say that people who use 'filling removing' sonic abominations, such as OC-9s and Lyras, do so to wake-up sleepy-sounding 'pipe & slippers' systems, sponsored by the insomnia society! :eyebrows:
Anyway, in use, the original US model Shure SC35C doesn't possess the balance you refer to above, which you should know, having read my review ;)
The joy of good vintage cartridges is that they don't have the insistent and artificially 'spot-lit' top-end of most modern designs, but in no way sound shut-in or rounded off, in the right system, but simply more natural and 'unforced', and consequently more musically satisfying with it :cool:
They just don't make 'em like they used to!
Marco.
You guys need to hear a modern MM like my Goldring 2500 and donate those things to the Victoria and Albert;)
Seriously though, well done with your aquisitions, no upgrade as satisfying as a well matched cartridge.
Lol, Colin! If your 2500 sounds anything like a 1042, then count me out!! :spew:
Otherwise, I'm all ears, dude! :)
Marco.
Nah thats another museum piece. I dont like them either.
Good to know, as to my ears, 1042s are truly horrid, 'nails on a blackboard', shouty things!
I think you need to hear what some of these "museum pieces" sound like first, though, before forming any conclusive opinions... My system contains many such items, and sounds, erm, 'rather good' for it ;)
Marco.
I do want to try a shure one day but it sounds a tricky buy what with U.S and japanese models ,let alone all the dj scratch types. The geezer who sold me the techy was a jazz nut like me and had a big collection of lovely looking shure carts. Said they went well with jazz recordings
Hi Colin,
Try putting a 'wanted' ad out for the Shure on some of the US audio sites, such as Audiokarma, Audiocircle (or Vinyl Engine), like Darren did, and/or add one to your wish list on eBay :)
If you managed to land one, I think you'd love it!
Marco.
Cheers Marco , i will. Im guesing on ebay im looking at U.S sellers and to make sure its vintage.
I've gone one or two better - a nos V15 Type 2 stylus (proper Shure one)... Similar balance to the M3-D, plenty of bass clarity and power, lovely mid, and the treble isn't as dull as I thought it would be :) and it tracks properly too :)
Nice... I also had a NOS V15 (but a type III), and it was a lovely sounding cartridge, but with a rather more 'polite', less 'gutsy', presentation than the original Evanston SC35C, which IMO, blows the V15 into the weeds! ;)
Marco.
kininigin
12-09-2011, 15:32
While ripping a load of vinyl for a neighbour,and since i have a US nos styli and a jico replacement,i thought i would do a rip using both to show any differences's,if any.
To me there is a clear difference,but i'll keep it to myself,which one is which, for now.
The track i've chosen is Bad Bad Simba by O'donel levy,one of my favourites.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/f15owfhua5jjicv/O%27Donel%20Levy%20-%2001.%20Bad%20Bad%20Simba%201.WAV
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zm0r4cm0b11ml1s/O%27donel%20Levy%20-%2001.%20Bad%20Bad%20Simba%202.WAV
Always find it difficult with the time lap between downloads but i preffered the second one.
kininigin
12-09-2011, 20:09
Always find it difficult with the time lap between downloads but i preffered the second one.
Yeah same here colin,normally takes me a good few listens,unless it is painfully obvious.
I know this isn't an exact science,so to speak,but thought it may be useful to anyone interested in this cart.
wiicrackpot
24-09-2011, 07:10
Can anyone confirm such a high tracking force doesn't wear records prematurely, if not can you explain why?, never used anything that needed more than 1.9g VTF.
Also does anyone have problems with insufficient phonostage headroom using the SC35-c with such a high output?, i had problems with a Rega Exact briefly (worst cartridge ever made and should never have seen the light of day IMO) and need advice on it's compatability with a MM phonosatge.
Ta.
Hi Andy,
I've used cartridges which track at high VTFs for over 25 years and have never had problems with excessive or premature record wear :)
Quite simply, it's a non-issue, *providing* that the stylus of the cartridge in question isn't worn and is kept in tip-top condition, and the cartridge is correctly aligned and set up optimally, tracking at the correct downforce.
FACT: more damage is done to records with cartridges which have worn styli, or that are skipping about at too low VTFs, than with ones tracking securely at 4g!
As for high-output MM cartridges overloading phonostages, it's unlikely, but much depends on the design of the phonostage in question.
Hope that helps! :cool:
Marco.
wiicrackpot
24-09-2011, 10:21
Thanks a bunch Marco, it's just i've read this thread and got me thinking with such high tracking force, the stylii must be like a pneumatic drill going through the groove, silly me.:mental::)
The secret is to have a vintage stylus retipped with a decent modern "naked" diamond, which I can guarantee will have a better finish than the bits of roughly polished coal that Shure originally fitted ;)
[edit] - I believe one can go safely up to several grammes tracking weight with a typical conical tip.
The last point is particularly pertinent, as conical tips have a larger and 'fatter' footprint than elliptical or fine-line styli, which means that they don't dig as deeply into grooves... :)
Marco.
The last point is particularly pertinent, as conical tips have a larger and 'fatter' footprint than elliptical or fine-line styli, which means that they don't dig as deeply into grooves... :)
Marco.
Is there a general rule as to what shape sounds best?
Hi Stu,
No, it's not quite as black & white as that, although most people would likely favour the sonic signature of a good elliptical, or indeed a fine-line, both of which are technically superior to spherical (conical) styli.
As usual, however, it's not as simple as that, as the stylus is only one of the consitituent parts of a cartridge - it's how the full package works as a whole that matters most, and indeed how well the chosen cartridge matches its partnering tonearm, sonically, all of which represents the "synergy" I've been discussing :)
Marco.
wiicrackpot
24-09-2011, 17:12
The secret is to have a vintage stylus retipped with a decent modern "naked" diamond, which I can guarantee will have a better finish than the bits of roughly polished coal that Shure originally fitted ;)
[edit] - I believe one can go safely up to several grammes tracking weight with a typical conical tip.
You have a brilliant way with words Dave, ;) will save your tip in my Dave folder.:lol:
if that was the case, why are we bothering with vintage carts?, why not just buy a new one with modern naked diamond.:scratch:
don't think my Alpha can accommodate that, will have to fit mt Audiotechnica ATP12t arm to cope.
Better to delete the contents of this post...
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 09:31
Dave,
Thanks for the thorough information in budget gems on all things cartridges, i used to be firmly set on high priced moving coils as i thought anything below £250.00 can't be any good, i'm glad i've righted my ways via lurking in this place, so i have to add ADC ZLM and Ortofon M20 FL Super thats me set for carts to see me out to the end, it's gotten very expensive already as i have acrude the following which i'll turnto when my Benz Lp Ebony dies.
Shure V15 VMR with Ed Saunders tip
Technics EPC 205c mk4 (minter & the smallest tip profile i ever seen period)
Stanton 681 EEE
Denon 103r
Decca London 'gold' (vintage bought recently)
Ortofon GT (coming)
Shure sc35c (US version NOS white lettering and made in USA at the back) ;)
Tonearms to suit are Alphason HR100s,Audiotechnica ATP12t,Audiotechnica AT1120,Michell Tecnoarm and now looking for a Unipivot to suit Decca, possibly Kuzma Stogi S.
Sorry for the willy waving guys, is there anything missing that i should check out before words get out and prices go stupid.:)
wii.
:worthless:
A heady collection of "stuff" there - would love to see it all :)
Some people don't want sonic truth, merely a big-n-beefy presentation with a rolled off treble :D
Perish the thought!! The fact is, it's got bugger all to do with "sonic truth" (the concept of which, in any case, is entirely subjective), and all to do with achieving sonic synergy.
Whilst some spherical-tipped cartridges can indeed sound that way, much of the effect is ameliorated, and virtually nullified, by the use of the right tonearm, T/T and phono stage - again, it's all to do with synergy..... None of the spherical-tipped cartridges in my system sound the way you have described.
Proof of this, excluding other similar experiences, was particularly conclusive when I borrowed Barry's superb Decca London Gold, and fitted it onto my modded Techy, instead of my usual SPU Classic GM. Treble detail and extension were remarkably similar to that of my SPU, with both cartridges exhibiting plenty of 'air' and 'sparkle'.
It was the midrange and bass where the most notable differences were. The midrange of the Decca had more 'attack' and greater projection (although the SPU was no slouch in this area), consequently increasing the clarity and intelligibility of vocals and acoustic instrumentation, however losing out in the lower frequencies to the SPU, which had greater power and visceral impact, together with better rhythmic acuity.
I loved the Decca, and could have easily lived with it, but there is a certain magic and overall 'musical rightness' with the SPU, which makes it my current favourite cartridge of choice. The point being though, that the spherical-tipped SPU did not lose out to the Decca one iota in terms of treble extension, and consequently did not sound "rolled off", in the way that you have implied.
The problem is that it takes the use of a quality high-mass tonearm in order to make spherical-tipped cartridges 'behave' as intended, and these days, such things are deeply unfashionable. And so other than the Jelco SA-750 and (rather pricey) Ortofon TA-110, there are no other modern options available.
And try strapping a DL-103, or similar, onto a modern low or medium-mass tonearm (which most people do through lack of available choice), and the results will be piss-poor, or mediocre - if you're lucky! :nono:
Nope, allowing a vintage cartridge with a spherical tip to realise its full potential in a modern system, requires an understanding of the technicalities involved, plenty of experience, and a goodly dose of lateral thinking! And yes, whilst there is no doubt that elliptical or fine-line styli are technically superior, and offer less distortion, they also tend to sound rather more 'hi-fi' and somewhat 'soulless', compared to a quality spherical-tipped cartridge which has been optimally set-up and partnered correctly.
As ever in audio, there is ALWAYS some form of trade-off to be had, so never think that there exists a 'universal optimal solution', in terms of cartridges, stylus types, or indeed anything else. The key is to experiment with the various options, learn what their traits are, always retain an open mind, and above all, leave old prejudices behind and be willing to learn and reassess previously entrenched opinions accordingly! ;)
Marco.
OK, it's just my opinion - content removed 'cos I really don't want a fight with anyone over this :)
Dave, with respect, in terms of the above, I don't need you to show me anything.
When you have daily access to BOTH a top-notch digital and vinyl source, and identical recordings of music on both CD and vinyl, with which to do relevant comparisons, you need no further "proof" of what is actually happening than listening! ;)
Marco.
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 14:42
Here are the cartridge mugshot, strange i can't find my 103r + stabiliser mounted on ADC LMG1 but came across a box containing a 304, Pickering XV15 + SME shell and Shure V15 mk3 in AT MG10 shell, here goes.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8012/002vzd.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
wii.
p.s.don't know how to link big photo's
Reid Malenfant
25-09-2011, 14:47
p.s.don't know how to link big photo's
Have a read of this thread here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2), it's dead easy once you suss it out :)
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 15:08
Big thank you Mark, took me a while as i can't find the 'i' symbol but got there eventually. :o
Here are the cartridge mugshot, strange i can't find my 103r + stabiliser mounted on ADC LMG1 but came across a box containing a 304, Pickering XV15 + SME shell and Shure V15 mk3 in AT MG10 shell, here goes.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8012/002vzd.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
wii.
That's a lovely collection of 'proper' cartridges, Andy! :respect:
Marco.
kininigin
25-09-2011, 15:31
Shure V15 VMR with Ed Saunders tip
Technics EPC 205c mk4 (minter & the smallest tip profile i ever seen period)
Stanton 681 EEE
Denon 103r
Decca London 'gold' (vintage bought recently)
Ortofon GT (coming)
Shure sc35c (US version NOS white lettering and made in USA at the back) ;)
That's far too many carts for 1 person,tell you what i'll take the decca off you,to lighten the load :ner:
Where did you source the SC35C from?
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 15:31
Thanks Marco, i am trying to get big bang for the bucks carts now mostly due to my financial constraints now :(, get what you are saying about matching the cart to particular arms hence i've been stashing a low,medium and high mass arms to cover everything.
I know what you are saying about SPU's but the mere mention of the word means pricey, i was lucky to put in a bid of £200.00 for my Decca (having looked at completed listings tend to veer between £260.00 - £300.00 plus) but was cock-a-hoop when i came home to find i won it for £156.00, it's in Brill nick and perfect in every way and the treasure of my collection.
wii.
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 15:35
That's far too many carts for 1 person,tell you what i'll take the decca off you,to lighten the load :ner:
Where did you source the SC35C from?
I hear yee ...:lol:, surfing on the bay the other night with nothing in mind and notice one had just been listed, remember reading it on here so bought it, seller was from Stirling, 30 mins drive from me.:cool:
kininigin
25-09-2011, 15:50
nice one,i really like this cart and my vinyl listening and purchase's have increased significantly since getting it.
Let us know what you think of it,when you get the chance.
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 16:16
Will do Darren.
Due to popular request, here's close up of the EPC205 MK4 but not for sale at the moment.
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7923/006jfv.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3461/012ix.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7600/015bd.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1201/019xb.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-25
wii.
If you ever do sell that, Andy, give me first dibs! Can we see your Shure SC35C? :)
Marco.
Why the fugg did Technics discontinue this? I know, vinyl was supposed to be dying back in the late 80's and nearly did. They could have hopefully kept the tooling and used the basic generator as a base for some new models of differing tip and tracking needs - DJ on the one hand and audiophile on the other. The suspensions if the mk3 onwards are supposed to be temperature tolerant and as long as it's survived the twenty years or so since I suspect it was made, it can easily be re-tipped later on :)
That cart is one sexy looking beast.
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 20:12
If you ever do sell that, Andy, give me first dibs! Can we see your Shure SC35C? :)
Marco.
I don't see me selling and believe or not, there was a PM within minutes of the 1st picture posted, not got the SC35C yet, sent a cheque so waiting for it to clear before i get it, will post a pic for your to verify once i get my mitts on it.:scratch:
Why the fugg did Technics discontinue this? I know, vinyl was supposed to be dying back in the late 80's and nearly did. They could have hopefully kept the tooling and used the basic generator as a base for some new models of differing tip and tracking needs - DJ on the one hand and audiophile on the other. The suspensions if the mk3 onwards are supposed to be temperature tolerant and as long as it's survived the twenty years or so since I suspect it was made, it can easily be re-tipped later on :)
Seemingly A.J Van Den Hul said this is the only MM cart worth his effort re-tipping, that Chemical Vapour Deposition shank was state of the art at the time,pretty toxic process, the profile of that polished diamond is amazing under a high power scope, when i got it my reaction was ''where's the tip?'' until i caught the glint.
wiicrackpot
25-09-2011, 20:16
That cart is one sexy looking beast.
Thanks Stu, sexy enough to have Smurf Sex with ????.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...shag it till your blue in the face.:sofa:
wiicrackpot
30-09-2011, 12:16
Hooray...got my SC35c today.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1249/006xit.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-30
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/386/005xk.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-30
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8484/004gw.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-30
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7760/003xzx.jpg
By wiiandy (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/wiiandy) at 2011-09-30
made in USA on the back and top of cartridge body,it even includes a sealed little bag of fitting kit comprising 2 x mounting screw set,2 x spacers, set of 4 tags to connect to pins in case of damage to original, very please.:cool:
wii.
Not as sexy as the technics 205 is it :)
Still, enjoy the Shure, I know you will, very much I suspect :)
kininigin
30-09-2011, 19:44
So what kit will have the pleasure of taking all these lovely carts your acquiring andy?
wiicrackpot
30-09-2011, 21:19
Not as sexy as the technics 205 is it :)
Still, enjoy the Shure, I know you will, very much I suspect :)
Sorry for late reply, just finished a 2-9.30 shift.
You're right Dave, the Shure is 2nd division when it comes to build and pride of ownership but i am gonna try it 1st, the 205 will be for special occasion.
So what kit will have the pleasure of taking all these lovely carts your acquiring andy?
Darren,using a Garrard 401 + Alphason HR100s just now, Lenco 59 waiting to be plinthed and various arms, quietly trying to snag a 301 cheap but no joy so far.:)
The L59 should be amazing with the Shure. Does it have the metal arm or the curvy bakelite/plastic one? I've seen Russ Collinson's Lenco plinths and they really look the biz :)
wiicrackpot
30-09-2011, 22:46
Dave, it hasn't got an arm on it at the moment, bought it a while back, put in a £50.00 bid and left it, through some freak of nature nobody else put a bid in, think the finishing coincided with Euro cup so got it for the starting price of £49.00.:lol: minted and runs a lot quieter than the 88 i had.
kininigin
03-10-2011, 12:39
Darren,using a Garrard 401 + Alphason HR100s just now, Lenco 59 waiting to be plinthed and various arms, quietly trying to snag a 301 cheap but no joy so far.:)
Not sure why i asked really,as i have only ever heard a Technics 1200 :lol:
wiicrackpot
03-10-2011, 18:53
Not sure why i asked really,as i have only ever heard a Technics 1200 :lol:
You asked because you guessed i've held one back, a fully working but in bits waiting to be plinthed Dual 721 early model with EDS 1000 mk2 motor, ;) having read all the positives on here regarding that dj deck, i am wondering if i've backed the wrong DD deck, :scratch: hence it's still waiting to be housed for the last 2 years. :rolleyes:
wii.
Those Duals need some care. The motor may be better than that on my 701 (a mk1 version with noisy speed pots I think), but I'm not sure about the arm. Either that or standards dramatically changed in a couple of years. A more solid plinth can't do any harm though and I can advise on the arm bearings, suitable cartridges (not really the SC35C in my view) and sorting the wiring and springs to work better... ;)
wiicrackpot
03-10-2011, 21:21
Dave, when i bought my 721 it was in a home made plinth drill for a Rega arm already sans any Dual bits, but i didn't like the quality of the work so decided to toss the shoddy work, i bought it soley for the quality of that motor which i am led to believe it powers the Goldmund Reference TT's, is that right?.
Hi Dave,
A more solid plinth can't do any harm though and I can advise on the arm bearings, suitable cartridges (not really the SC35C in my view)...
Out of curiosity, why - what, in your opinion, is unsuitable about it? :)
Do bear in mind that I'm referring here to the original US version, not the shite (in comparison) that Shure make now!
Marco.
wiicrackpot
04-10-2011, 11:38
Marco, i think Dave was referring to the Dual arm and SC35c compatability, not the Tecnoarm + SC35c which i plan to put on.
Yeah Marco, not the cartridge, merely the Dual arm, which is a bit - er - "lively" in the upper midband. mass wise, the Duals of this period are around 15g according to 'Choice, and the counterweight was "tuned" specifically for the Shure V15 III and others like it I seem to remember. [edit] - the M3D/N21 wasn't really happy in the 701 without loads of mass added (counterweight was right out almost as far as it would go without falling out) and my guess was that tha SC35C may be similar, preferring a heavier and more solid/rigid arm to work at its best, that's all..
Shane, who posts here, had a damaged 701, from which he poached the motor and sent me the remains, which have come in SO handy :). As the motor has the electronics mounted underneath and the transformer is easily relocated well away from the rest of it, I think there's a superdeck coming along. I'd possibly leave the mat stuck to the platter as the whole is totally dead and plonk a cork or similar mat on top of it.
Lee Henley
29-11-2011, 21:55
Well thanks to Darren who gave me his SC35C and cart after reading this thread I want to get my hands on an original American SC35C cart, any idea as to where I can get one from?
Cheers Lee
kininigin
01-12-2011, 22:05
Hi lee,
I have sent you a pm,but i'll repeat what i said in that here,incase anyone else is interested in this cart.
Basically put a wanted ad in as many forums as possible and keep you eye out on ebay ect.
Have you thought about a goldring G800 lee? These are more readily available and offer very good sppv,apparently.I have one,but haven't got round to replacing my dodgy stylus yet,not sure why :scratch: anyway marco rates them highly in the right system,when setup optimally.He did a comparison between the two,which he wrote about in this thread.The G800 may have a more favourable presentation to you,depending on what you like/want.
Maybe worth considering while you look for a SC35C.
kininigin
08-05-2013, 16:30
If anyone would like a NOS styli for the SC35C,then this guy has some! If you have a 'vintage' SC35C,but not an original styli,this will be money well spent ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-CARTRISGE-STYLUS-SS35C-BRAND-NEW-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-/140953687740?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item20d17e96bc
thinker10
27-06-2013, 02:16
Hi,
The latest body needs 250pf
The old one 450pf
Or is it the stylus that needs more capacitance ?
It does sound much better already on a new body (less than than 1 side played)
If they have white lettering then they are US Made ?
Mine came the specification paper : SS35C and SS78E
0.6 mil spherical
The cartridge body if they are printed (made in USA) are the vintage ?
I got the stylus for $20
Thanks
Hi,
The latest body needs 250pf
The old one 450pf
Or is it the stylus that needs more capacitance ?
It does sound much better already on a new body (less than than 1 side played)
If they have white lettering then they are US Made ?
Mine came the specification paper : SS35C and SS78E
0.6 mil spherical
The cartridge body if they are printed (made in USA) are the vintage ?
I got the stylus for $20
Thanks
Hi "thinker10",
Before going any further, please provide your real first name and approximate geographical location, and add the info to your profile, as this is now required of all members. You have been asked to do this before! Your failure to comply this time may result in your account being suspended, with no further warning, therefore please provide the information requested on your next visit.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Many thanks, Jean, for adding the info requested to your profile! :)
Marco.
thinker10
28-06-2013, 14:33
Thank You
I just got a US made body
The top end is very clean and the bass is to die for
I don't have enough capacitance just about 250pf
Shure say at least 400pf
But it sound great even with the NOS stylus not even broken-in (vtf at 4.45 grams)
I am lucking because someone in the past had soldered on one of + pins, but I was able to removed it with a sharp razor blade .
I was happy to hear that channel still working
Thanks
thinker10
29-11-2013, 05:27
I am busy working lately
I have the USA Made SC35C mounted on Technics Headshell with the 3 grams weight
I have it at 4 grams now
Is 3.5 grams enough when playing 12 inch single especially 33.3 rpm that are cut with full stereo bass
45 rpm are easier to play
I ask because the minimum was 4 grams
No one mention the USA stylus is a 0.6 mil and the current one is 0.7 mil
Thank You
The Barbarian
29-11-2013, 09:24
I don't have enough capacitance just about 250pf
Shure say at least 400pf
Recommended Capacitance should also include your Pick-Up arm cabling capacitance..
But it sound great even with the NOS stylus not even broken-in (vtf at 4.45 grams)
:eek: I'd never sleep again if my needle were tracking at 4+ grm
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