View Full Version : Social unrest - very concerned now.
Just had a text from an ex-girlfriend who lives in Croydon and she says the place is alight. She's a VERY tough cookie and I have known her for years and never once known her to sound scared, but she sounds scared tonight.
Now Birmingham is being looted too - this is a worry and Police numbers have been cut dramatically in the last 2 years. My local force has not recruited anyone in 18 months and cut the workforce by 20%.
These are worrying times :(
It is indeed worrying Tim - nothing to do with the events that happened in Tottenham either - just lawless thugs and thieves - which is probably all the more worrying.
Reid Malenfant
08-08-2011, 20:56
You aren't the only one that's worried Tim ;) I live in a city with a lot of social deprivation & foreign workers that certainly don't look like they are integrating very well...
There were riots here back in the 80s, i'm wondering what the hell is going to happen here in the not too distant future.....
Mark intends to stock up on fire extinguishers :rolleyes:
Golf iron at the ready (just in case) :cool:
aquapiranha
08-08-2011, 21:00
National service, boot camps, borstal, short sharp shock, zero tolerance policing is required. this is not a protest, it is scum on the rampage and it needs to be stopped now.
Agreed, I can hardly believe what I've been seeing on TV the last few days. I was shocked at what happened in Paris and now it's happening here. There is just too much compression in this country, too great a population. Perhaps the government(s) will stop immigration now and actually direct money at the disenfranchised people already here, as well as the poilice? Perhaps they could also stop making mistakes and releasing foreign criminals into our midst?
jandl100
08-08-2011, 21:33
Live on the news at the moment - it looks like it's only the one big fire in Croydon, Tim - the furniture store.
Hopefully that'll be it.
I live in a flat attached to my shop and im only 2 miles from Hackney. Wishing i had got those shutters now.
A girl in our Crystal palace branch got a Blackberry message at 4 oclock telling everyone to go to Croyden at 9 oclock so the Police must have known before it started. Never seen anything like this.
jandl100
08-08-2011, 21:37
Close down the 'social networks' - it's all being coordinated thru those.
Looks like the government will have to act to have the powers to put a damper on them.
Times, they are a'changing.
Apparently Tesco's in Croydon is now alight, her husbands a CID cop somewhere in London, not sure where and they are barricading the station right now she says. She's quite distraught poor girl being alone with two small children. Thinking of going up to help her, but not sure what good I would be :(
How long will it be before lives are lost?
Reid Malenfant
08-08-2011, 21:53
National service, boot camps, borstal, short sharp shock, zero tolerance policing is required.
I'd be happy with that, sounds like it used to be without the PC sh*te...
:)
I agree. There is an argument for disenfranchised youth with no prospects but these kids are feral yobs.
From The Telegraph live feed (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687177/London-riots-live.html)
21.50 Alan McCabe, owner of the Old Fox and Hounds pub, Croydon, told the BBC the town tonight is "an absolute warzone" after rioting by a 200-strong mob which left buildings ablaze. This is his account:
Quote It kicked off very quickly, very sharpishly, and we tried moving people out the pub as fast as possible. We blocked up the front doors and moved them out the back. I ripped off all the spirits off the optic behind the bar, so that if anyone did break in they couldn’t be Molotovs. Unfortunately I had a 90 year old woman in the pub. She comes in for a cup of tea, a nice quiet woman. She got a little wound up so I carried her across the road to the police who were very accommodating. Just as I got her there the riot group, 200 strong, pushed forward. There were bottles, bricks, smoke everywhere; they just don’t care. I’ve never seen such a disregard for human life.
I’m trapped at the moment in a side street. I’ve got six guys that I work with, the owner, his brother, just trying to box up as much as we could. Everything’s exploding around. There’s sirens, there’s helicopters. I’ve just passed west Croydon station; it’s burning hard. I can see down by the market area something’s up in flames. I’ve seen 20 riot police heading down from the High Street towards West Croydon. I’ve got a girlfriend calling me, terrified, that I can’t get home to. Her seven year old daughter is crying her eyes out because she’s absolutely terrified.
Some people have been fantastic, trying to get home. Others have been idiots, just standing there looking, looking at this utter, utter carnage and destruction like lemmings. My recommendation is get in your house, look after your family, lock your doors and hope to God.
Some of these rioters are just scum.
Hope your ex and her hubby both end up OK, Tim.
Some of these rioters are just scum.
Going to have to disagree with you there Jon - they're all scum - not just some - even if the cause really was the shooting in Tottenham on Thursday (which it almost certainly isn't) how does endangering the lives of innocent people or ruining their lives by destroying their homes in any way help...? Bring in the water cannons, tear gas and plastic bullets I say.
aquapiranha
08-08-2011, 22:10
Plastic? You are too kind Alex :lol:
Hope your ex and her hubby both end up OK, Tim.
Thanks Jon, she's terrified right now and her children are not much better. I don't know what to do, she really is an extremely tough girl normally, this is very out of character for her, but this is unprecedented. I guess having her husband in harms way doesn't help either.
Plastic? You are too kind Alex :lol:
I was going to suggest getting the army involved, but I'm pretty sure there are only around 10 soldiers left in the whole of the UK, whilst the rest of them are protecting other countries around the world...
I was going to suggest getting the army involved, but I'm pretty sure there are only around 10 soldiers left in the whole of the UK, whilst the rest of them are protecting other countries around the world...
Youre not wrong there. And they want to cut 2000 police in London :rolleyes:
I don't know what to do
Tough one Tim, not sure what I'd do in your situation either. Fingers crossed it calms down.
Happening on the torys doorstep now. Its started in Notting hill.
aquapiranha
08-08-2011, 22:30
Live reports here...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675
Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 22:33
According to local BBC reporting earlier today there are no water cannon or plastic bullets available in London. This is unbelievable that in the capital city the police are not equipped to deal with this level of social unrest.
It was also suggested during the same report that Londoners have no stomach for using such riot control devices and yet they are Ok for use in Northern Ireland. Best not go there.
Frankly water cannon should have been requested as a standby for use against these rioters. The water died with a permanent die. Anyone found with the stain arrest them on the spot. Marshal law should be declared and a curfew set. However that would require the government to actually be here instead of on holiday (according to the BBC). The major of London, where is he....apparently on Holiday (according to the BBC news)
Very sad to see the police helpless and wanton vandalism and theft going unchecked. Is this a sign of things to come in the future.
Regards D S D L
This is shaping up to be worse than the 80's, at the moment it looks like the police are powerless to stop it - just too many rioters to control. I feel for the people of London tonight.
There will be no funds to regenerate so the effects will be felt for a long time.
Rare Bird
08-08-2011, 22:44
Wheres the armed forces then?
Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 22:52
Wheres the armed forces then?
That would require the government to declare marshal law. I am not totally in favour of bringing the troops onto the streets but the situation is out of hand the police can't cope so it seems the next logical step to take.
However do you give them permission to fire on the rioters. I can foresee a Bloody Sunday scenario in London 2011 instead of Derry in the early 70's.
Terrible night for London.
Regards and best wishes to all
D S D L
Its because the so called leaders of Britain are on holiday. There is no one in control and no one at Scotland Yard has the balls to take control.
From Twitter about an hour ago - a tweet from BBC Newsnight:
"No one from the government was available to appear on #newsnight tonight to talk about the London riots"
Unbelievable! I guess they really are all on holiday, and left Nick Clegg in charge... :rolleyes: which is probably why nothing constructive is being done... Oh, hang on - a couple of football matches have been cancelled!
Rich Conroy
08-08-2011, 23:05
Guys, I think we need to be very careful here. For sure criminality/destruction/rioting need to be dealt with severely. BUT not to the degree that it then inflames the situation further.
It's much better to avoid a riot than prevent one. I in no way support any of this mayhem but it seems that the police badly handled the situation with regard to the dead man's family. A protest was organised outside a police station and the feral population that every area has used this as a starting point.
National Service - Being a soldier is a technical job these days. Full time soldiers look down on them and you just don't have the time to train them properly. The Dutch did away with it for this reason.
Boot Camp - Produces fit criminals.
Martial law/Curfews - Just can't do it legally and it inconveniences the ordinary population.
Army on the streets - Requires a declaration of a "civil emergency". It won't happen.
Over reaction will be a victory for the rioters.
Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 23:06
Its because the so called leaders of Britain are on holiday. There is no one in control and no one at Scotland Yard has the balls to take control.
I suspect but I am not sure that there are rigid procedures in place that have to be followed to bring the troops onto the streets. The question is though could they be mobilised quickly enough to deal with this situation which seems to be hydra like in that it is springing up all over London from minute to minute.
Something needs to be done 'now' and police appealing for parents to bring their kids in is a joke.
Regards D S D L
All valid points but the fear is for every victory for the mob, it gains in confidence especially as they bask in their glory by posting their actions on the web. There has to be some hard shock tactics i think. Better still of course is the community leaders taking the initiative but i have no hope for that. Back in the 80s people like Diane Abbot and Darkus Howe had respect but the young people dont even know who these people are any more.
Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 23:13
Guys, I think we need to be very careful here. For sure criminality/destruction/rioting need to be dealt with severely. BUT not to the degree that it then inflames the situation further.
It's much better to avoid a riot than prevent one. I in no way support any of this mayhem but it seems that the police badly handled the situation with regard to the dead man's family. A protest was organised outside a police station and the feral population that every area has used this as a starting point.
National Service - Being a soldier is a technical job these days. Full time soldiers look down on them and you just don't have the time to train them properly. The Dutch did away with it for this reason.
Boot Camp - Produces fit criminals.
Martial law/Curfews - Just can't do it legally and it inconveniences the ordinary population.
Army on the streets - Requires a declaration of a "civil emergency". It won't happen.
Over reaction will be a victory for the rioters.
So this kind of behaviour is to be pandered to. With all due respect it is exactly that that has led to the police and the law being treated with no respect. These rioters have little to fear.
I lost my job three years ago and found it hard to get a job again, thankfully I have one now, all-be-it part time. However at no time did I feel like rioting as it is wrong pure and simple and what is happening tonight in London is wrong, there is no excuse for it and it can not be justified period. I am sick of liberal do gooders justifying this kind of behaviour by trundling the same old same old tired excuses. It is wrong pure and simple and the police should have the teeth to deal with this.
Regards D S D L
The rioting is very grim, but the reaction by the majority of the contributors to this thread is even scarier imo :(
Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 23:17
The rioting is very grim, but the reaction by the majority of the contributors to this thread is even scarier imo :(
Why?
So they should be allowed to do what they like and get away with it?
What do you suggest as a solution?
Regards D S D L
If you dont give rules and structure to children you lose control just like the modern classroom. Im not right wing i can just see the capital city in a state of anarchy.
Thing Fish
08-08-2011, 23:28
I live in Croydon and as I type this I can smell the smoke and hear the sirens but am not worried as I have just opened my second bottle of red and sparked up a doobie.
Peace out.
StanleyB
08-08-2011, 23:28
The police is not capable to deal with real trouble makers. The shooting dead of several people who were not an obvious danger to anyone else shows how 'tough' the police is. Many armed and dangerous murderers were allowed to roam about for hours or even days, before anything was done about them.
Equally, the police can only deal with protesting students or G20 protesters. But give them a bunch of rioters and they go all chicken.
I live in Croydon and as I type this I can smell the smoke and hear the sirens but am not worried as I have just opened my second bottle of red and sparked up a doobie.
Peace out.
Sod it i`ll join you:smoking:
Thing Fish
08-08-2011, 23:42
Well said Colin. Lets fiddle while Rome burns. Metaphorically of course...:lol:
WOStantonCS100
09-08-2011, 00:24
Guard your family and watch your backs folks... please.
It can't be but a matter of time before it happens here. My greatest wish is that the youth would think about the real reasons the world's in the shitter and "attack" those processes. But, it seems the powers that be have systematically trained the youth to avoid thinking.
Thing Fish
09-08-2011, 00:28
My greatest wish is that the youth would think
Aah a big mistake thinking the youth of today can think for themselves...!
BTH K10A
09-08-2011, 00:28
Quote from the comments section of a SE London newspaper website
"kevint1972 , Beckenham says...
12:45am Tue 9 Aug 11
The news can't keep up. I've read loads of eyewitness reports from places that the news channels and websites haven't mentioned. This is basically happening everywhere there's shops worth nicking stuff from. It's like Dawn of the Dead with chavs instead of zombies, not that there's much difference."
My feeling are for the poor sods in the emergency services who have to deal with this stuff and the damage it does to already deprived communities.
Like Biff implies, it’s a shame the shit never seems to end up on the right doorstep.
Thing Fish
09-08-2011, 00:35
Its funny watching the BBC news seeing the helicopters and hearing them from my window...:(
worthingpagan
09-08-2011, 01:00
i've got a nice big cricket bat waiting for any daft sod who wants to try and climb my stairs uninvited :steam:
The govt should call in the army, that'll put the shits up the thieving little b@8*?%^s
I was born and raised in West Ealing and got caught up in the Southall riots of 1979, had been playing snooker in the Southall snooker club. Tell you what, going to a football match is one thing, but seeing 300 pissed off nut jobs running straight at ya, baying for blood, even if it's not you they're after, well, it scares the living crap out of you, I don't care how big and hard you are, you'll run like everyone else
Waltham Abbey Sainsbury depot ablaze. 750 jobs gone over night.
BBC got that wrong. Its the Sony depot.
Thing Fish
09-08-2011, 01:15
That's a lot of people who can't now pay their bills. I've been there its shite...
British police don't have guns and tactical support?
Our riots in L.A. stopped as soon as the national guard showed up in riot gear with M16's set to full cha cha.
In less than 3 hours the Once mighty black youths that scared L.A.P.D. into locking them selves into there police station became meek as little lambs.
BTW the only stores that survived where the Korean markets heavily defended with AK47's from there roofs.
My Gandhi following peace loving uncle,"never a gun in my house" Went out an bought a Ruger mini 30 and called me to order a 550 round battle pack and over night it to him.
Passivisum is a wonderful philosophy,But when confronted by reality it fails miserably every time.
I hope you and your family's are all kept well through this, now go sharpen a broad axe,build a trench club or something.
I just saw this in the Drudge report,is this a Muslim youth riot?
British police don't have guns and tactical support?
London has the CO19 firearms unit which coincidentally were the ones that shot and killed an alleged "gangster" last Thursday, who they claimed was armed and fired at police officers. However, it has since emerged that the man was unarmed and the bullet found lodged in a police officer's radio was a police issue bullet. Relatives and friends of the shot man wanted answers down at the local police station but none were forthcoming, so a disgruntled mob gathered which soon turned into a local riot in Tottenham. There is no direct causal link with the shooting and the rioting which has now spread to many districts of London and other cities.
I forsee things getting worse. much worse.
Had an arrest in the back garden last night some youths trying to escape.....reasons not sure.
aquapiranha
09-08-2011, 07:32
The army needs to be deployed as from today to stop this looting. The fires and stone throwing are just a cover for the scum to steal with impunity. Anyone who believes this has anything at all to do with a 'protest' about a 'gangster' ( the bloke was nothing like a gangster, just another scumbag with a gun) is very very naive. I wonder what amazing solution cameron comes up with this morning when he chairs a meeting of cobra. It is high time we stopped just saying 'it is young people taking out frustration' well it isn't, it is feral filthy scum who need to be locked up for a very long time. I understand a bloke was shot amid the mayhem last night? I think a few warning shots over their heads from an sa80 will send them running back to their beds quick sharp.
Looks like this has already outstripped '81
We've got even more scumbags than then, with even less respect for authority and a greater capacity for violence.
Very worrying indeed...time to check out the news :(
I wonder what amazing solution cameron comes up with this morning when he chairs a meeting of cobra.
David Cameron: "I am granting the Metropolitan Police emergency powers to use water cannons, rubber bullets and tear gas to take back control of our streets In addition I am deploying the British Army as a visible presence to provide the authority that is so very lacking.".....Carlsberg don't do Prime Ministers but if they did they would probably be the best in the world!...
(nicked from Facebook!)
aquapiranha
09-08-2011, 08:19
He could have issued such an order while he was sunning himself elsewhere and so avoided what happened last night!
He could have issued such an order while he was sunning himself elsewhere and so avoided what happened last night!
Martial Law is a big step, I suppose it does require serious consideration before you impose it, so I'm not surprised they're taking their time.
However it does look like the only alternative at the moment.
This will spread to all areas of the country, as it did in '81, and 30 years later we've got an even greater %age of a criminal subclass within the country.
Perhaps this is the wakeup call we needed, political policies from all parties since '81 have simply perpetuated the problem, or merely covered things up with fiddled crime statistics.
This could take some severe measures to stem, and generations to fix :(
WoW!
I never really expected to see this in England.
If I lived in or near London Id board up all my windows and get to my roof with a shot gun full of buck shot.
I pray our British freinds will be ok,I just saw more on the news.It's much worse than I ever thought.
If the Police and Army can't protect us, maybe it is time for the good people of the UK to take to the streets themselves and drive these feral rats back into the sewers where they belong...
This could get nasty - for once I find myself agreeing with Jeff's "take no sh!t" approach! ;)
It's like Dawn of The Dead but with Chavs instead of zombies. Not sure there is a huge difference to be honest.
WoW!
I never really expected to see this in England.
If I lived in or near London Id board up all my windows and get to my roof with a shot gun full of buck shot.
I pray our British freinds will be ok,I just saw more on the news.It's much worse than I ever thought.
Jeff there'll be 'copycat' riots in every city in the country tonight, as in '81 it started in London, but very quickly spread to all the major cities.
I think from a US perspective it helps to think of the UK in terms of a single US state, things good or bad spread very quickly.
In '81 virtually every shop in every city centre was boarded up, it was surreal, I was at Liverpool University at the time, the city centre resembled Beirut, likewise Manchester and Birmingham :(
In our L.A. riots the police locked them selves inside the police station and 911 told people to fend for them selves,the Koreans did just that saving there stores and homes.
http://www.aznlover.com/community/archive/index.php/t-9449.html
L.A.'s P.D. proved to be total cowards.
There are some stupid comments here in this link but you get the jist of how things went down.
For one the guy used a .45 not a .44 and there is alot of anti U.S. comments but bottom line people like the Japanese are culturally different from the west,notice no looting during the earth qwake? a big part is they are all the same race with all the same history and we are a mixed bag of nutz from every where.
Canada has crime but no inter citys ,people live 5 miles apart making a riot,pretty much imposable.
Some people are just to stupid to be believed.
The U.S. and the U.K. are very much the same in so meany ways.
The U.S. economy is near total collapse,our president and the Democrats answer is to just barrow more money!
Who ever borrowed there way to prosperity?
Bad times are coming here soon, personally I am sick at what is happening to western country's.
I feel I can protect my family pretty well from rioters but not the reckless spenders in Washington.
Watch the new soon the U.S. will mirror the U.K.
In our L.A. riots the police locked them selves inside the police station and 911 told people to fend for them selves,the Koreans did just that saving there stores and homes.
http://www.aznlover.com/community/archive/index.php/t-9449.html
L.A.'s P.D. proved to be total cowards.
There are some stupid comments here in this link but you get the jist of how things went down.
For one the guy used a .45 not a .44 and there is alot of anti U.S. comments but bottom line people like the Japanese are culturally different from the west,notice no looting during the earth qwake? a big part is they are all the same race with all the same history and we are a mixed bag of nutz from every where.
Canada has crime but no inter citys ,people live 5 miles apart making a riot,pretty much imposable.
Some people are just to stupid to be believed.
The U.S. and the U.K. are very much the same in so meany ways.
Jeff, the reasons behind this would require a thesis of epic proportions, the one thing we do share in common with Canada is the scarcity of firearms amongst the rioters...in L.A. you had to assume the mob was armed.
A curfew, and letting the police off the leash may be enough in the short term...but as for the long term, that's not so simple
There armed in the U.K. !
Flaming bottles of gas or what ever is a weapon!
Rocks will also kill you.
The fact is people don't pull this kind of crap for long in an armed neighborhood.
It would be over in 10 minutes on my street.
These rioters are cowards,fight back and they run with there tail between there legs.
Ali Tait
09-08-2011, 10:35
WoW!
I never really expected to see this in England.
If I lived in or near London Id board up all my windows and get to my roof with a shot gun full of buck shot.
I pray our British freinds will be ok,I just saw more on the news.It's much worse than I ever thought.
If you did that here Jeff, the police would target you before the rioters. Personally, I would do whatever it takes to protect my family, it's just the way it is here.
Jeff, the reasons behind this would require a thesis of epic proportions
Not so much, These people are cowards in life,they only care about them selves,when faced with opposing force they piss them selves and run home to there Mommys to wine some more about how unfair the world has been to them.
God forbid they go out and forage for a meaningful job and over come disappointments like the rest of us.
These people are not men but total crap and I have no sympathy for them.
The thinking is the same,guns or no guns.
I'm deliberating whether to go in to London for the Prom tonight. Think I will - why should I let the buggers change my plans? The only problem is whether it affects the underground service as I need to get to High Street Kensington from Hounslow West, where I usually park.
If you did that here Jeff, the police would target you before the rioters. Personally, I would do whatever it takes to protect my family, it's just the way it is here.
Not so much,the police will be hiding somewhere till it's all over.
That's what happened here.
The national guard had to sweep the streets,they didn't use rubber bullets either and guess what ?
Word got out and in less than 3 hours the streets where empty and fireman could return to put out the flames.
I'm deliberating whether to go in to London for the Prom tonight. Think I will - why should I let the buggers change my plans? The only problem is whether it affects the underground service as I need to get to High Street Kensington from Hounslow West, where I usually park.
I wouldn't go with out at least a battle Ax.
Not so much, These people are cowards in life,they only care about them selves,when faced with opposing force they piss them selves and run home to there Mommys to wine some more about how unfair the world has been to them.
God forbid they go out and forage for a meaningful job and over come disappointments like the rest of us.
These people are not men but total crap and I have no sympathy for them.
The thinking is the same,guns or no guns.
Jeff these people are no more brave or cowardly than anyone else, what they are are the product of successive generations of the breakdown of social values in deprived inner city areas.
They are created by the environments (and parents or lack of them), and are beyond repair in the most parts, the damage has already been done by the time they are teenagers or less.
I have a friend who actually dragged himself out of such an environment, he is the exception, he now works with the worst of the little b*stards at a special school in Coventry, at a great expense to the community...it's just damage limitation in most cases, and keeps them out of prison for a couple of years at best. Even he despairs...
Sadly, music is also a casualty: The Sony Warehouse in Enfield was home to PIAS - up to 150 Independent record labels have reportedly had their entire stock wiped out. :(
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/aug/09/independent-record-labels-stock-london-riots?CMP=twt_gu
In crystal palace park 400 people have gathered. The police have told us to board our shop up and go home.
It seems similar things are happening across London Wimbledon and Feltham have been told the same I am in a a big care home, I told a lot of staff to leave and those that need to stay I am making sure they have a safe place to stay over night so not have to travel back home after 930pm
If you get caught up in its so random
The police actually arrested two youths in my garden last night and a few local mobile and electrical stores have been looted. On the bus to work I could actually hear people plotting for tonight but no idea if just talk or they ment it.
Spectral Morn
09-08-2011, 13:39
It seems similar things are happening across London Wimbledon and Feltham have been told the same I am in a a big care home, I told a lot of staff to leave and those that need to stay I am making sure they have a safe place to stay over night so not have to travel back home after 930pm
If you get caught up in its so random
The police actually arrested two youths in my garden last night and a few local mobile and electrical stores have been looted. On the bus to work I could actually hear people plotting for tonight but no idea if just talk or they ment it.
Glad your Ok John
Keep your head down and stay safe.
Regards D S D L
I hope this all ends soon as there is no hope it will end well.
To much damage done all ready.
Good luck my friends,I'm worried for you.
Techno Commander
09-08-2011, 13:44
I think its time the Police were given the big sticks, hob nailed boots and took the hungry dogs out for a walk.
Rich Conroy
09-08-2011, 13:49
Th UK (with the exception of Northern Ireland) has a long tradition of policing with the cooperation and consent of the public. Britain and Southern Ireland are the only countries in Europe where the police will routinely be unarmed.
From the TV coverage today it seems that curfews and the use of the army are not an option right now. Lets look at the statistics. There will be 16,000 police on duty in London tonight. That's in a city of 7 million. The police just can't (even with the help of the army if it came to it) be everywhere in a city of that size. The burning and looting will happen wherever the police aren't. With Iraq and Afghanistan how many spare soldiers does Britain have anyway? Bugger all. If the army could match the police numbers some how it still will be impossible to be in the right place at the right time all the time.
Could the mobile phone companies suspend text messaging in the London area for a time?
Could Facebook for a time suspend all accounts of under 18's in London?
If vigilantes start appearing to protect property this could get very bad very quickly if clashes develop. I think the careful use of plastic bullets is now justified.
But the ultimate thing is - the parents of these looters KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Why is their kid out until 4 in the morning? Where did that TV come from?
It comes down to the values of their upbringing.
Spectral Morn
09-08-2011, 14:00
Th UK (with the exception of Northern Ireland) has a long tradition of policing with the cooperation and consent of the public. Britain and Southern Ireland are the only countries in Europe where the police will routinely be unarmed.
From the TV coverage today it seems that curfews and the use of the army are not an option right now. Lets look at the statistics. There will be 16,000 police on duty in London tonight. That's in a city of 7 million. The police just can't (even with the help of the army if it came to it) be everywhere in a city of that size. The burning and looting will happen wherever the police aren't. With Iraq and Afghanistan how many spare soldiers does Britain have anyway? Bugger all. If the army could match the police numbers some how it still will be impossible to be in the right place at the right time all the time.
Could the mobile phone companies suspend text messaging in the London area for a time?
Could Facebook for a time suspend all accounts of under 18's in London?
If vigilantes start appearing to protect property this could get very bad very quickly if clashes develop. I think the careful use of plastic bullets is now justified.
But the ultimate thing is - the parents of these looters KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Why is their kid out until 4 in the morning? Where did that TV come from?
It comes down to the values of their upbringing.
All excellent points.
Difficult times ahead and on the UK mainland unchartered territory at least for many hundreds of years.
Values is a key thing missing in many peoples lives, even basic things like knowing what is wrong seems to be a rarity among some of our young people. Please note I said among some not all.
Regards D S D L
When you see this sort of thing...
http://i55.tinypic.com/21cxauf.jpg
It makes you realise there is some organisation behind it - not just random groups - though of course they are springing up now. One of my offices is in Romford and I've just heard large numbers of people on the streets and shops and offices are closing early... Even 16,000 police can't be everywhere across Greater London...
Even 16,000 police can't be everywhere across Greater London...
Also those 16,000 officers on duty won't all be riot trained or equipped officers, the actual numbers available to deal with the violence will be significantly less unfortunately. Many of those will be from other forces too, having no knowledge of the local area - this could be a very tense and worrying night for the country. If you go to the proms tonight Martin take care, what about driving there and parking in the Royal College of Music? I wouldn't want to rely on public transport tonight.
Dominic Harper
09-08-2011, 15:12
I believe it is time for the military to step in and take control. Those guilty should be punished severely! Nuf said.
Riot girls talk about the violence....
'Showing the rich we do what we want'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
Unfortunately this is what we as a society are up against :scratch:
Also those 16,000 officers on duty won't all be riot trained or equipped officers, the actual numbers available to deal with the violence will be significantly less unfortunately. Many of those will be from other forces too, having no knowledge of the local area - this could be a very tense and worrying night for the country. If you go to the proms tonight Martin take care, what about driving there and parking in the Royal College of Music? I wouldn't want to rely on public transport tonight.
Indeed Tim, tonight will be mayhem, particularly with the police being 'let off the leash', they've got 48 hours to prove that they can restore control in London, and every idiot will be out and about...
Martin I'd give the proms a miss tonight mate, no gig's worth this strife.
My colleague who was staying in Camden, drove back home to Worcester at 4am in his vandalised car (half the windows gone) just to get out of the area.
worthingpagan
09-08-2011, 15:28
Riot girls talk about the violence....
'Showing the rich we do what we want'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
Unfortunately this is what we as a society are up against :scratch:
Why do the media give these wankers air space? They think it "was good fun" burning out other people's property and stealing? How about they get taken to a room and get locked in for 5 minutes with those they've wronged? Bet the scumbags wouldn't think it was good fun then!
The other issue which the idiots won't have realised, is that in the event of damage to property due to riots, the bill is picked up by the Police authority, not insurance companies. So, essentially the tax payers will pick up the bill - and of course that has to mean cuts somewhere else. So that library which may have escaped the last round of cuts, or the community project which survived another year will probably get shelved to pay for the wanton destruction. How is that going to hurt the rich...?
Why do the media give these wankers air space? They think it "was good fun" burning out other people's property and stealing? How about they get taken to a room and get locked in for 5 minutes with those they've wronged? Bet the scumbags wouldn't think it was good fun then!
...I remember being at one of the very early tribal gathering raves, some scally youths were caught stealing from the tents...they were force fed 'microdots' and thrown in the back of a windowless transit van for 48 hours...harsh but fair I thought.
I doubt they'll be having so much 'fun' tonight, when the old bill take a bit of revenge
So that library which may have escaped the last round of cuts, or the community project which survived another year will probably get shelved to pay for the wanton destruction. How is that going to hurt the rich...?
....they can read...???
No....your pulling my plonker.....aren't you??
Reid Malenfant
09-08-2011, 18:20
It's just starting to kick off yet again :rolleyes:
Manchester, Wolverhapton, West Bromwich, London....
WTF is up with these idiots :scratch:
vinylspinner
09-08-2011, 18:57
Catch them and send them to Colchester military prison for 3 months, none of that pc shit in there I can tell you.
Nigel
Reid Malenfant
09-08-2011, 19:17
I was thinking earlier how we could help the planet with these idiots... Then it came to me, take them on a cruise to the Pacific :)
Then kick the bloody lot overboard at least 500 miles from the nearest island :eyebrows: After all sharks are getting rarer due to other idiots wanting fins for soup :doh:
Feed the sharks :cool:
Beechwoods
09-08-2011, 19:19
This is nothing like the 70's and 80's where people had some legitimate cause for complaint; this is all about rampant opportunism and sheer criminality. The 'me too' things kicking off in Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol just show how baseless all this is. This isn't about cuts, Labour would have been forced to make exactly the same cuts; the only difference between the parties would be the spin they've put on it.
This is not about property and theft either. Normal people have lost everything http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8690265/Tottenham-riots-community-becomes-real-victim-of-rioters.html this is mindless, thugish, criminal consumerism.
I look forward to seeing how the 'robust' police response tonight manifests itself. If plastic rounds and water cannon are good enough to deploy in Belfast they're good enough to deploy to save people's homes from these mindless idiots. There is no justification for what is going on, and anyone who thinks there is should be forced to live with their family above a JD Sports or Carpetright when these tw*ts come round.
rubber bullets and water cannons - get them on the street now !
We'd never have dreamed of acting like this at there age (god i sound old - i'm only 42!)
I really do believe National Service needs to be brought back !
Pray for a heavy rain; nothing like a bit of miserable British weather to discourage people from rioting ;)
Reid Malenfant
09-08-2011, 20:13
Just thought this might be interesting :) I think some people are attempting to protect themselves as there has been a 6000% increase in sales of baseball bats on Amazon since a couple of days ago :eyebrows:
You'll find that information on here (http://news.uk.msn.com/live-updates/london-riots/) somewhere back there ;) Live feed about the riots :steam:
This is nothing like the 70's and 80's where people had some legitimate cause for complaint; this is all about rampant opportunism and sheer criminality. The 'me too' things kicking off in Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol just show how baseless all this is. This isn't about cuts, Labour would have been forced to make exactly the same cuts; the only difference between the parties would be the spin they've put on it.
This is not about property and theft either. Normal people have lost everything http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8690265/Tottenham-riots-community-becomes-real-victim-of-rioters.html this is mindless, thugish, criminal consumerism.
I look forward to seeing how the 'robust' police response tonight manifests itself. If plastic rounds and water cannon are good enough to deploy in Belfast they're good enough to deploy to save people's homes from these mindless idiots. There is no justification for what is going on, and anyone who thinks there is should be forced to live with their family above a JD Sports or Carpetright when these tw*ts come round.
+ 1
I have a friend working in an office in central London, near the Thames. She, along with the rest of the staff, has been sent home early as a precaution.
Words fail me to describe the pieces of low-life who are getting involved in these and other 'copy cat' riots. The situation is clearly being orchestrated and exploited by anarchist groups.
StanleyB
09-08-2011, 20:56
Legislations that were designed to protect youngsters from abuse by their parents and teachers has created a new breed of teenagers who have no respect for anyone, and that includes the law. It is now coming to haunt the legal system. In some areas kids have been stoning fire engines and ambulances for years, with little or no effort by the government to punish them. That needs a change.
Water canons have not had a massive impact in NI. Rubber bullets and pepper spray would be a better solution.
Techno Commander
09-08-2011, 22:01
Legislations that were designed to protect youngsters from abuse by their parents and teachers has created a new breed of teenagers who have no respect for anyone,
In most cases, it wasnt abuse, merely trying to install a sense of discipline and respect.
Bring back public floggings. And put them on you tube.:lol:
No problem getting to the Prom tonight, but we did see heavy police presence around Hyde Park and they appeared to be closing it as we came out of the Albert Hall.
Glad you're safe Martin - looks like the heavy police presence has kept the capital relatively quiet tonight, let's hope the rest of the country follows, and that it is quelled once and for all...
worthingpagan
09-08-2011, 22:46
Jeff these people are no more brave or cowardly than anyone else, what they are are the product of successive generations of the breakdown of social values in deprived inner city areas.
They are created by the environments (and parents or lack of them), and are beyond repair in the most parts, the damage has already been done by the time they are teenagers or less.
I have a friend who actually dragged himself out of such an environment, he is the exception, he now works with the worst of the little b*stards at a special school in Coventry, at a great expense to the community...it's just damage limitation in most cases, and keeps them out of prison for a couple of years at best. Even he despairs...
With respect Wil, there was much more poverty and hopelessness in the 1930's and people didn't behave like this back then. I'm sorry mate, i'm a socialist but IMHO these events have nothing at all to do with neglect of inner city kids or communities and everything to do with nasty little vermin who have no respect for other people or their property.
Thanks, guys. I really hadn't known what to expect.
Looking at the news tonight, I am still depressed as hell at what these people have done to our country. It might have been brewing for a while, but it's still a shock.
Thanks, guys. I really hadn't known what to expect.
Looking at the news tonight, I am still depressed as hell at what these people have done to our country. It might have been brewing for a while, but it's still a shock.
Glad your ok, It really dose Suck.
Round these bastards up and drop ship them to Iran.
. . . these events have nothing at all to do with neglect of inner city kids or communities and everything to do with nasty little vermin who have no respect for other people or their property.
+1 It's quite simple really, lack of discipline, lack of role models (fathers) and the break down of what was once the foundation of our 'civilised society' . . . families who had values and invested time in their children. The youth rampaging our streets are the product of this, they have no values because their juvenile parent or parents have none, more often than not it's a single parent. The police, schools and courts have been hampered from handing out any meaningful punishment or deterrent for the last few decades and this is what you get -feral discontented youth with absolutely no fear or regard for people, property or the law as they have no reason to be fearful, because they have never been disciplined. We are reaping what we have sown and we as a society are all culpable, as we let it happen. 30 years ago our troublesome youth may not have respected the police, but they feared them, now it's nothing more than a game to taunt them and actually take them on, knowing they are probably not going to get a baton strike as to them the cops have lost their bottle.
Those officers out there tonight are no different to you and I and they want to do what the majority of the law abiding public want and deal out some harsh discipline - but they can't, they are not scared or chicken they are hampered by a legal system that prevents them from doing so, ridiculous health and safety regulations and an ineffective government who are reacting with too little, too late. This country IMO used to have a fine police 'force', we now have a police 'service' that calls the people it deals with customers and a Home Secretary who is out of her depth as was her predecessors. To get tough on crime, you need a tough police force and a robust justice system to support them - right now we have neither. These last few nights may change that and force a re-think, as losing control of the streets has always brought governments down. I just hope it's not too late.
It might have been brewing for a while, but it's still a shock.
It's been coming for awhile now Martin, but it still makes you sick to the pit of your stomach. Glad you went to the RAH and had a good time, like you say, we cannot let the bastards win.
Glad you're ok Martin and kudos for not letting the arseholes ruin your evening. Not sure i'd have braved Manchester tonight.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
09-08-2011, 23:57
+1 It's quite simple really, lack of discipline, lack of role models (fathers) and the break down of what was once the foundation of our 'civilised society' . . . families who had values who invested time in their children. The youth rampaging our streets are the product of this, they have no values because their juvenile parent or parents have none, more often than not it's a single parent. The police, schools and courts have been hampered from handing out any meaningful punishment or deterrent for the last few decades and this is what you get -feral discontented youth with absolutely no fear or regard for people, property or the law as they have no reason to be fearful, because they have never been disciplined. We are reaping what we have sown and we as a society are all culpable, as we let it happen. 30 years ago our troublesome youth may not have respected the police, but they feared them, now it's nothing more than a game to taunt them and actually take them on, knowing they are probably not going to get a baton strike as to them the cops have lost their bottle.
Those officers out there tonight are no different to you and I and they want to do what the majority of the law abiding public want and deal out some harsh discipline - but they can't, they are not scared or chicken they are hampered by a legal system that prevents them from doing so, ridiculous health and safety regulations and an ineffective government who are reacting with too little, too late. This country IMO used to have a fine police 'force', we now have a police 'service' that calls the people it deals with customers and a Home Secretary who is out of her depth as was her predecessors. To get tough on crime, you need a tough police force and a robust justice system to support them - right now we have neither. These last few nights may change that and force a re-think, as losing control of the streets has always brought governments down. I just hope it's not too late.
Children when they enter puperty are animals that are only developing humanity, it is a similar process with all primates. There is a gene that says break the rules, it is part of natures genetic experiment with what is possible. The tribe says follow the rules be that chimps or humans. How you make them follow those rules is to make consequences, the simplest as used in the old days and in other culture where discipline works is a simple clip around the ear, now we threaten to take away their gameboy or what have you, it doesn't work. We have sowed the seed so now we see what we have grown.
It has been coming for a while and it’s not just these gangs of criminals and the disaffected youth is it.
We seem to have developed a culture of take what you can now and fuck everyone else.
The current economic crisis was brought about by similar attitude.
Our politicians can’t see past the next election and saving their seats.
The list goes on.
Everyone it seems believes they are entitled to a style of life and degree of material wealth that neither they nor this planet can afford.
I don’t condone for a second the behavior of the rioting and looting gangs but we bear part of the responsibility because it has been our generation primarily that moved from the extended family with modest expectations to the greedy self interested consumer.
These are the values we have taught them. There wasn’t some genetic shift in our evolution that suddenly bred a disenfranchised criminal class.
It’s easy to target these gangs of youths and dismiss them as the scum of society but like any stagnant pond I think you’ll find the scum at the top blocking the light for those underneath.
They're just a symptom of a sick society.
Perhaps it's not just local empires like the Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, British Empire etc. that will fall this time, it'll be the 'World Empire'.
I'm somewhat glad that I'll be dead before this country crumbles, but I fear for my son and the world that he will be in in 20 years' time.
Well London was a lot better last night. The comments from my staff team is just how reassuring and how well they managed to stop trouble before it built up last night. I know it will still bad in other areas.
I remember years ago going to Woolwich the night after the riots to see Diamond Head I missed the last train back into London and got caught up in Woolwich for one hour I was so happy to see the police on the streets. Yet again a similar response kind of dealing with potential issues before they errupted.
It has been coming for a while and it’s not just these gangs of criminals and the disaffected youth is it.
We seem to have developed a culture of take what you can now and fuck everyone else.
The current economic crisis was brought about by similar attitude.
Our politicians can’t see past the next election and saving their seats.
The list goes on.
Everyone it seems believes they are entitled to a style of life and degree of material wealth that neither they nor this planet can afford.
I don’t condone for a second the behavior of the rioting and looting gangs but we bear part of the responsibility because it has been our generation primarily that moved from the extended family with modest expectations to the greedy self interested consumer.These are the values we have taught them. There wasn’t some genetic shift in our evolution that suddenly bred a disenfranchised criminal class.
It’s easy to target these gangs of youths and dismiss them as the scum of society but like any stagnant pond I think you’ll find the scum at the top blocking the light for those underneath.
They're just a symptom of a sick society.
Yee-hah, John - what a brilliant post! I concur completely (especially with the bits in bold, which I have a MAJOR problem with!!) :clap: :clap:
What do we do about these deluded and greedy fuckers who insist on living WAY beyond their means, with seemingly no thought as to the repercussions of their selfish behaviour?
Marco.
Water canons have not had a massive impact in NI. Rubber bullets and pepper spray would be a better solution.
What I don't understand is why the army haven't been called in to help?? :scratch:
Marco.
Yee-hah, John - what a brilliant post! I concur completely (especially with the bits in bold, which I have a MAJOR problem with!!) :clap: :clap:
What do we do about these deluded and greedy fuckers who insist on living WAY beyond their means, with seemingly no thought as to the repercussions of their selfish behaviour?
Marco.
Gotta blame the banks; Credit. 6 x salary mortgages. Buy now pay later. All this has bred the 'have it now, doesn't matter if you can actually afford it' society.
It is the age of materialism. Everything's on credit, but it don't matter, cos look what I've got!
Sad, very sad, the state of our youth... According to Audio Affair, they had their windows smashed, but nothing else - seems kids really aren't interested in hi-fi, not even to loot it! ;)
From Twitter:
AudioAffair Audio Affair
Thankfully we've not suffered much damage from the #BirminghamRiots just a few broken glass. But feeling sorry for a shop nearby :(
chris@panteg
10-08-2011, 08:33
What I don't understand is why the army haven't been called in to help?? :scratch:
Marco.
They say its too extreme :rolleyes: , what i found worrying is seeing "Cameron" outside no 10 proclaiming these idiots will face the full force of the law , sorry to say this but i :lol::lol::lol: and those twats will be laughing there heads off .
A couple of months in prison , suspended maybe , and for most just a slap on the wrist :nono:
+1 It's quite simple really, lack of discipline, lack of role models (fathers) and the break down of what was once the foundation of our 'civilised society' . . . families who had values and invested time in their children. The youth rampaging our streets are the product of this, they have no values because their juvenile parent or parents have none, more often than not it's a single parent.
Damn right!
The sad fact is that some folk just don't deserve to have kids, quite simply because they are not qualified for the job, in any way, shape or form!!
If I had my way, I'd introduce some form of strict screening process to prove that people were up to the task before they were allowed to bring another life (or lives) into this world! ;)
Something DRASTIC has to be done NOW in order to prevent idiots continually breeding successive generations of idiots.......
Marco.
chris@panteg
10-08-2011, 08:39
Sad, very sad, the state of our youth... According to Audio Affair, they had their windows smashed, but nothing else - seems kids really aren't interested in hi-fi, not even to loot it! ;)
On BBC news i saw what looked like a proper hifi shop getting ransacked , a guy carrying an Audiolab CD player and 2 Pioneer DVD or Blu ray players .
It was in the Wolverhampton area .
Sorry Chris, just my bit of British "Gallows Humour" to try and lighten the mood!
What do we do about these deluded and greedy fuckers who insist on living WAY beyond their means, with seemingly no thought as to the repercussions of their selfish behaviour?
There is a rather simplistic solution Marco - lock them up and keep them out of harms way. Brutal I know, but a society needs to protect itself. Sometime ago a senior officer in Thames Valley police made a study of one of their worst offenders who was a teenager. She got together with a University professor and an economist and they calculated the net cost that youth had on the community over a 12 month period. They calculated everything, courts, police, social workers together with the actual economic net cost caused by the damage, thefts and insurance payouts. Over that year he cost the local economy £1.2 million and the cost of detaining him would have been £77,000 - go figure :scratch:
chris@panteg
10-08-2011, 08:52
Sorry Chris, just my bit of British "Gallows Humour" to try and lighten the mood!
No need to Alex :) The Joke at Work yesterday was "get down to Tesco's around midnight and get your Xmas shopping in early" Not really that funny though .
There was a largish group of youths that had gathered and the Police advised Tesco to close , this they did , there was some trouble in the Town as well .
Madness .
Something DRASTIC has to be done NOW in order to prevent idiots continually breeding successive generations of idiots.......
Marco.
The welfare system & child benefit in particular needs serious review.
We've got remove the 'career path' that being a single mum on welfare has become...but I'm afraid the horse has somewhat bolted
They say its too extreme :rolleyes: , what i found worrying is seeing "Cameron" outside no 10 proclaiming these idiots will face the full force of the law , sorry to say this but i :lol::lol::lol: and those twats will be laughing there heads off .
A couple of months in prison , suspended maybe , and for most just a slap on the wrist :nono:
Indeed, Chris!
It's this 'namby-pamby' approach by Police that does my head in, due to them having one hand tied behind their backs by idiotic government legislation. We need to introduce a 'zero tolerance' approach when dealing with these vermin.
I'd love to see how this situation would've been dealt with in Italy, where you only have to look at a policeman the wrong way, before having a gun pointed at you and/or being quickly bundled into a back of a 'Carabinieri' van, for some 'special treatment' back at the station!!
Would you mess with this man?
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/29/carabinieri.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/carabinieri.jpg/)
;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
10-08-2011, 09:03
Indeed, Chris!
It's this 'namby-pamby' approach by Police that does my head in, due to them having one hand tied behind their backs by idiotic government legislation. We need to introduce a 'zero tolerance' approach when dealing with these vermin.
I'd love to see how this situation would've been dealt with in Italy, where you only have to look at a policeman the wrong way, before having a gun pointed at you and/or being quickly bundled into a back of a 'Carabinieri' van for some 'special treatment' back at the station!!
Would you mess with this man?
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/29/carabinieri.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/carabinieri.jpg/)
;)
Marco.
Hi Marco , when i visited Rome back in 2002 , i well remember going for a stroll round one of the piazza's and the police were carrying semi automatics .
No trouble brewing or nothing , Just routine .
This country is way to soft on crime , but we all know that and the criminal idiots know that and the rest of the world know's it , we need to change !
Somebody has got to have the courage and strength to try and change things .
WOStantonCS100
10-08-2011, 09:06
It has been coming for a while and it’s not just these gangs of criminals and the disaffected youth is it.
We seem to have developed a culture of take what you can now and fuck everyone else.
The current economic crisis was brought about by similar attitude.
Our politicians can’t see past the next election and saving their seats.
The list goes on.
Everyone it seems believes they are entitled to a style of life and degree of material wealth that neither they nor this planet can afford.
I don’t condone for a second the behavior of the rioting and looting gangs but we bear part of the responsibility because it has been our generation primarily that moved from the extended family with modest expectations to the greedy self interested consumer.
These are the values we have taught them. There wasn’t some genetic shift in our evolution that suddenly bred a disenfranchised criminal class.
It’s easy to target these gangs of youths and dismiss them as the scum of society but like any stagnant pond I think you’ll find the scum at the top blocking the light for those underneath.
They're just a symptom of a sick society.
Yee-hah, John - what a brilliant post! I concur completely (especially with the bits in bold, which I have a MAJOR problem with!!) :clap: :clap:
What do we do about these deluded and greedy fuckers who insist on living WAY beyond their means, with seemingly no thought as to the repercussions of their selfish behaviour?
Marco.
I realize I'm in the US; but, I've been watching this like a hawk for the past few days... and feck if it doesn't piss me off.
However, I have to agree with the above. Politicians on the take, corporate heads and the unconcerned wealthy are just as selfish and destructive. The difference is, they have the ways and means to do it "quietly". They get to "loot" the public by mass manipulation of currency, markets, etc. and by draining the public's ability to make a decent living, bit by bit, a little more everyday. One thing the youth aren't... is blind. They are mirroring what they see in their elders. But, if they have (or believe they have) no voice and "no ways and means" and see themselves as having no future, they have nothing to lose. To them, their ability to make mahem, is their only recourse. It's their reciprocating act of selfishness against the selfishness and greed they see; as misdirected and misguided as it is. And, thru technology and the craze for the latest web-linked gadget (because, after all we've trained them to be consumers not doers and blank canvases for the ads and fads pushed at them), we've given them the means "to assemble" and "to coordinate. Yes, there are thugs involved; but, they're not all thugs. From my small window on the world, it certainly does not look to be drawn down any strict ethnic line, either.
Now, don't get me wrong; because, I would have been (and will be) out on my rooftop with a .357, a speedloader, a 9mm and a few extra clips if/when it happens here. I also still believe that there are UK youth who are echoing our refrain of, "You don't shoot your own cat because the neighbor cat crapped on your steps!!" But, yeah... for it to reach this level... means something or many things have been out of kilter for a long, long time... in our respective families, work environments and government structure.
What's probably the saddest site for me is the heckled mayor. More so the mothers/parents who were all standing helplessly expecting, yet again, the government and the police to cure the whole deal. Okay, well yes, ineffective police and military are a huge problem and it's mind boggling that things have gotten to that point. BUT what about parenting!?! I'm a grown man; but, the thought of raising my hand to my mother or father??? blatantly disrespecting them??? burning down someone's store because I am pissed about how things are going in my country??? Really............... To this day, I would not pick a fight with my dad OR my mother, I might win; but, I would be a hurtin' son of a b-----!
The welfare system & child benefit in particular needs serious review.
We've got remove the 'career path' that being a single mum on welfare has become...
Too right. That shit is a filthy disease of modern society which needs wiping out, PRONTO!
Marco.
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 09:17
Perhaps it's not just local empires like the Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, British Empire etc. that will fall this time, it'll be the 'World Empire'.
I'm somewhat glad that I'll be dead before this country crumbles, but I fear for my son and the world that he will be in in 20 years' time.
Who's to say it'll be in 20 years? The way things are going, it could be less than 5.
anthonyTD
10-08-2011, 09:25
hi all,
i totaly agree with a lot thats been said here, unfortunetly i think its going to take a stronger more robust government than we have at the moment to get to the root of this problem, and stamp it out, no more pussy footing about, we need to get tough in this country, and fast!
Anthony,TD...
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 09:34
hi all,
i totaly agree with a lot thats been said here, unfortunetly i think its going to take a stronger more robust government than we have at the moment to get to the root of this problem, and stamp it out, no more pussy footing about, we need to get tough in this country, and fast!
Anthony,TD...
Probably find the ECOHR finds it illegal to hurt the rioter's feelings physically or emotionally and to discipline them would be against their human(???) rights :steam:
Sad, very sad, the state of our youth... According to Audio Affair, they had their windows smashed, but nothing else - seems kids really aren't interested in hi-fi, not even to loot it! ;)
Hi Alex,
Looks like these people are.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54516000/jpg/_54516778_012627584-1.jpg
Whilst watching the coverage of the Manchester looting spree last night (which was clearly a profit driven exercise) I had a little bit of a thought.
I wonder what the domestic burglary figures were like in the city that night, are these the same people that would be involved in that activity? Were we simply witnessing the same crime but this time applied to commercial victims?
Perhaps this is in some way a good thing, domestic burglary goes largely unsolved or unpublished, perhaps now that this thievery is in the public domain it might invoke a reaction.
The same type of sh1tbags wander round different residential areas of Coventry, particularly the more affluent ones, where one experiences a spate of robberies.
Is it any worse because it's commercial rather than domestic?...No as far as I'm concerned.
I wonder how much attention will now be given to these legalised 'fences' that are springing up everywhere? Cash-Converter and the like, these store are going to be inundated with newly acquired goods from the high street, rather than from the usual domestic thefts.
We live in a world where 90% of the adverts on daytime TV are for loan sharks, and fences...oh sorry I forgot about injury lawyers for you :(
Regulation is required urgently :steam:
Hi Alex,
Looks like these people are.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54516000/jpg/_54516778_012627584-1.jpg
Wouldn't it be nice to fill some empty boxes with plastic explosives and a motion-sensor triggering device...
jandl100
10-08-2011, 09:51
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"- Plato, 4th Century BC
jandl100
10-08-2011, 09:56
Ah me .... this made me smile, despite the horror of it all. :)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8692814/London-riots-Boris-Johnson-calls-for-police-cuts-rethink.html
Wouldn't it be nice to fill some empty boxes with plastic explosives and a motion-sensor triggering device...
On a slightly lighter note...
I lived in New York during the 80's, when it was a little more lawless than it is now, and a friend of mine had a couple of interesting experiences with the contents of boxes.
He was walking down canal st. past an electrical store, a chap unloading video recorders from a delivery truck asked him if he was interested in a VCR for $50, as he had surplus stock...so he bought one! When he got it home and opened the box, he found the contents to be 2 bricks wrapped in paper...:doh:
A week or so later he was approached by a guy down a side street with a similar offer, this time he agreed if he could look in the box. The guy agreed and opened the top of the box, he saw a black thing with knobs...so he bought it.
When he got it home and opened it properly, he found he was the proud owner of a beautifully carved, black, wooden effigy of a VCR, including knobs!!! It must have taken hours to make....:doh::doh:
anthonyTD
10-08-2011, 10:05
Hi all,
and another thing, i also think that we should as a nation ban all types of hooded clothing in public areas that are not transparent!
ie; if its raining people can wear hooded coats or over coats as long as they are transparent! I think this alone would be a serious deterent.
Anthony,TD...
Hi all,
and another thing, i also think that we should as a nation ban all types of hooded clothing in public areas that are not transparent!
ie; if its raining people can wear hooded coats or over coats as long as they are transparent! I think this alone would be a serious deterent.
Anthony,TD...
...a little hard to administer I think
In winter too, what about us poor bald ffers? :)
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 10:34
Hi all,
and another thing, i also think that we should as a nation ban all types of hooded clothing in public areas that are not transparent!
ie; if its raining people can wear hooded coats or over coats as long as they are transparent! I think this alone would be a serious deterent.
Anthony,TD...
Ministers don't wear hoodies and they're the biggest crooks of all
...a little hard to administer I think
In winter too, what about us poor bald ffers?
I know, but I do agree with Anthony.
'Hoodies', when worn by these scumbags, make them look rather intimidating, and encourage the wearers to 'hide' and disassociate themselves from their environment, thereby encouraging them to disrespect those with whom they share it, and their property!
The fact that anyone feels the need to 'hide' inside an item of clothing and not show their face properly in public, IMO, demonstrates severe insecurity and possibly the existence of some quite serious social issues....
Marco.
anthonyTD
10-08-2011, 10:40
...a little hard to administer I think
In winter too, what about us poor bald ffers? :)
wear a hat!:eek::lolsign:
Anthony,TD...
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 10:41
the answer is simple. stay at school till 18 or go to jail. At 18, join the army for minimum 3 years service, or go to jail. If you want to go to college or university, you do so AFTER you have served 3 years in the Army. The army can dredge rivers, build bridges, enhance the communities, and of course, as always, travel abroad and kill people. And if all that doesn't work, go to jail.
wear a hat!:eek::lolsign:
Anthony,TD...
Does it have to be transparent too?...:)
More seriously I know what you mean about the hoods, look at this for example, it's in youths sizes!!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260764809590
...or even worse from sports direct!!!
http://www.sportsdirect.com/airwalk-goggle-jacket-mens-607146?src=google
http://www.sportsdirect.com/airwalk-goggle-jacket-mens-607146?src=google
Oh FFS!!! :doh: :rolleyes:
You may as well have "I am social misfit, who is liable to rob your ass", written across the back.........
Marco.
We already have a law that can be used to outlaw hoodies. Some people have been charged with "being equipped", eg with tools for breaking the law. In the situation we have now a hoody can be seen as such a tool as it hides their face from CCTV. The police in city centres should tell people they risk being searched or arrest if they walk around with their hoody up.
We already have a law that can be used to outlaw hoodies. Some people have been charged with "being equipped", eg with tools for breaking the law. In the situation we have now a hoody can be seen as such a tool as it hides their face from CCTV. The police in city centres should tell people they risk being searched or arrest if they walk around with their hoody up.
That's probably the only way it can work...
Now then about that national ID scheme :)
Oh FFS!!! :doh: :rolleyes:
You may as well have "I am social misfit, who is liable to rob your ass", written across the back.........
Marco.
...or more accurately advertised as 'looters jacket'!!!
Sorry Chris, just my bit of British "Gallows Humour" to try and lighten the mood!
I liked what one Waterstone's employee said on local TV news in Manchester last night:
"We're going to stay open - if they steal a few books they might actually learn something"
Interesting Tweet from Richersounds:
Teaching by example? First in the dock at Highbury Magistrates re @richersounds Croydon looting is a 31-year-old teacher. She pleads guilty.
Doesn't hold out much hope, does it? Greed pure and simple.
I have to say I was quite impressed by Cameron's update this morning... Getting tough on the free loading society is the answer, IMO.
:sofa:
All this rage talk about locking the rioters up, putting them in the army, reductions in the Welfare State rather misses the point imo. For a start such measures cost us money, haven’t shown any signs of working in the past and in general seems to be a knee jerk reaction of an angry and scared but largely impotent middle class intent on protecting their interests with little or no regard for the lessons history has taught us.
I believe as an extreme example Hitler tried something similar with what he and his pals identified as the “social” problems of his time. Let’s not forget that in addition to the millions of Jews, also on the list were all the other “undesirable” elements of society.
There is not a lot of point in having extreme measures to deal with one section of criminality if other sections of that same society aren’t subject to the same standards; that’s not justice.
I don’t recall these comments being directed at the bankers who ripped this country off for billions of pounds and did far more damage than this bunch of high media profile rioters. We didn’t howl for blood during the pension’s scandal where thousands of people lost everything carefully put by for the future. How about putting those MP’s who stole our money in their expenses claims in the army?
I just can’t help feeling that not a lot of thinking is going on around here.
Anyway, have a think on this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8410489.stm
Alex wrote;
"I have to say I was quite impressed by Cameron's update this morning... Getting tough on the free loading society is the answer, IMO."
Why do we fall for this bollocks every time. Cameron isn't the slightest bit interested in anything more than filling his own pockets and staying in power.
Interesting Tweet from Richersounds:
Teaching by example? First in the dock at Highbury Magistrates re @richersounds Croydon looting is a 31-year-old teacher. She pleads guilty.
Doesn't hold out much hope, does it? Greed pure and simple.
I have to say I was quite impressed by Cameron's update this morning... Getting tough on the free loading society is the answer, IMO.
:sofa:
One of my mates mentioned that he'd heard that several of the early convictions in London were all of employed people (including members of the armed forces!) up for a rumble...which somewhat undermines the political motivation. However I've not seen anything to confirm this myself...Probably the same tw*ts that organise football violence, role on the start of the season :doh:
I don't think the banking issues are quite the same John - or are you really suggesting that they all went out with the deliberate intent of criminal activity? The same with most of the Pension fund issues - I'm not sure (apart from in the notable cases) it was deliberate criminal activity - and certainly not an activity that could lead to death or serious injury, which quite frankly it is amazing hasn't happened with all the arson and violence that has gone on the past few days...
As for Mr Cameron - I don't know him personally, but I honestly don't believe anyone would want to become Prime Minister just to fill their own pockets or for a long-term occupation - there are plenty of better salaries and job security in the private sector if all you want is money and power, surely?
Thing Fish
10-08-2011, 12:18
Just heard - Daniel Atto (in court this afternoon) was given 1 day in prison (deferred due to one day spent in custody) for stealing from costco. What is the point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:steam::steam:
As for Mr Cameron - I don't know him personally, but I honestly don't believe anyone would want to become Prime Minister just to fill their own pockets or for a long-term occupation - there are plenty of better salaries and job security in the private sector if all you want is money and power, surely?
The major motivation for becoming an MP, and subsequently PM, is ego IMHO;)
As for Cameron, he comes from a PR background, so I take what he says with a large pinch of salt...
One of my mates mentioned that he'd heard that several of the early convictions in London were all of employed people (including members of the armed forces!) up for a rumble...which somewhat undermines the political motivation. However I've not seen anything to confirm this myself...Probably the same tw*ts that organise football violence, role on the start of the season :doh:
Hi,
It seems that there is a mix bag of people being charged. I saw on BBC News 24 the teaching assistant when was charged. He has been sent to crown court so they can dish out bigger levels of punishment.
Also there has been an army recuit, organic chef, grade A student, university graduate and graphic designer been charged.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/14yearold-boy-is-among-hundreds-of-rioters-facing-charges-2335066.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692007/London-riots-youth-worker-and-Army-recruit-among-those-in-court.html
This is a very worrying development for Birmingham...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/10/birmingham-riots-3-men-killed-in-hit-and-run-attack-protecting-their-community-from-looters-115875-23333668/
Alex wrote;
“I don't think the banking issues are quite the same John - or are you really suggesting that they all went out with the deliberate intent of criminal activity?”
Well here you have a very interesting problem Alex and what one classes as criminal activity when the letter of the law has had its say.
Not a lot of doubt in my mind that the intent was to profit with no regard to the social cost.
As for “and certainly not an activity that could lead to death or serious injury, which quite frankly it is amazing hasn't happened with all the arson and violence that has gone on the past few days...”
Well I would disagree and as our society declines and real poverty takes a grip on the less well protected elements perhaps you will change your mind.
It’s an extraordinarily complex subject Alex and ones view is going to depend greatly on why you believe the laws we have are there and just who they are meant to protect.
With regard to “As for Mr Cameron - I don't know him personally, but I honestly don't believe anyone would want to become Prime Minister just to fill their own pockets or for a long-term occupation - there are plenty of better salaries and job security in the private sector if all you want is money and power, surely?”
Once again, it’s complicated. What do you think Mr Cameron’s motivation for wanting to become Prime Minster was? Not a lot of point in being Prime Minster if you aren’t interested in Power is there. Career politician is a description that springs to mind.
Agreed John, the increasing polarization of wealth with the country will have inevitable consequences...we're already seeing South American style kidnapping etc.
Indeed John, I don't disagree with the logic of the indirect consequences, but in my opinion it is still a vastly more despicable act to set fire to a shop with flats above it - but let's leave it there, otherwise we won't be able to share the sofa again! ;)
Alex, you’re always welcome behind the sofa with me, no matter how our views differ.
After all, if you’re behind the sofa with me there’s always a chance of changing your view. If you're running with the mob screaming for blood there’s not much chance of reason being heard is there. ;)
(and you've got the biscuits)
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 13:57
We already have a law that can be used to outlaw hoodies. Some people have been charged with "being equipped", eg with tools for breaking the law. In the situation we have now a hoody can be seen as such a tool as it hides their face from CCTV. The police in city centres should tell people they risk being searched or arrest if they walk around with their hoody up.
So where does that leave wearers of the veil?
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 13:59
That's probably the only way it can work...
Now then about that national ID scheme :)
Ok if you're not an illegal :lol:
kininigin
10-08-2011, 14:21
All this rage talk about locking the rioters up, putting them in the army, reductions in the Welfare State rather misses the point imo. For a start such measures cost us money, haven’t shown any signs of working in the past and in general seems to be a knee jerk reaction of an angry and scared but largely impotent middle class intent on protecting their interests with little or no regard for the lessons history has taught us.
I believe as an extreme example Hitler tried something similar with what he and his pals identified as the “social” problems of his time. Let’s not forget that in addition to the millions of Jews, also on the list were all the other “undesirable” elements of society.
There is not a lot of point in having extreme measures to deal with one section of criminality if other sections of that same society aren’t subject to the same standards; that’s not justice.
I don’t recall these comments being directed at the bankers who ripped this country off for billions of pounds and did far more damage than this bunch of high media profile rioters. We didn’t howl for blood during the pension’s scandal where thousands of people lost everything carefully put by for the future. How about putting those MP’s who stole our money in their expenses claims in the army?
I just can’t help feeling that not a lot of thinking is going on around here.
Anyway, have a think on this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8410489.stm
Alex wrote;
"I have to say I was quite impressed by Cameron's update this morning... Getting tough on the free loading society is the answer, IMO."
Why do we fall for this bollocks every time. Cameron isn't the slightest bit interested in anything more than filling his own pockets and staying in power.
I have to say,i agree with you john.The link at the bottom,was written by david icke 2 years ago and despite what alot of people think of his views on more esoteric matters,when it comes to matters that deal with banking,political,multi national companys,military,social issues ect he is pretty much bang on.
Anyone who has read his work or other researchers work,no full well the reasons why these things happen,it is planned,either directly or indirectly.It's easy to see,when you know what the desired outcome is.
http://www.davidicke.com/articles/problem-reaction-solution-mainmenu-41/20744-please-dont-riot--its-just-what-they-want
So where does that leave wearers of the veil?
They should be treated the same. This wouldn't outlaw hoodys or veils, just their use in likely trouble spots when trouble is expected. Everyone should be treated the same.
Hi,
What we need is Robocop.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoah9lGGl1r1qajlo1_500.png
The Force needs the Force
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppgowbwg41r1qajlo1_500.png
Looks like the Justin Bieber fan club is out in force.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppowh1hB71r1qajlo1_500.png
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpph3rxyAs1r1qajlo1_400.png
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoc3lpxGe1r1qajlo1_500.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoa0sGyf21r1qajlo1_500.png
grab the lute
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppsk2gGhi1r1qajlo1_400.png
Catnick
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppvcgZBzb1r1qajlo1_500.png
Cookies
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppp7qQKCz1r1qajlo1_500.png
Maypole fun
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpphsgdR9t1r1qajlo1_500.png
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 15:43
Hi,
What we need is Robocop.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoah9lGGl1r1qajlo1_500.png
The Force needs the Force
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppgowbwg41r1qajlo1_500.png
Looks like the Justin Bieber fan club is out in force.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppowh1hB71r1qajlo1_500.png
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpph3rxyAs1r1qajlo1_400.png
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoc3lpxGe1r1qajlo1_500.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoa0sGyf21r1qajlo1_500.png
grab the lute
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppsk2gGhi1r1qajlo1_400.png
Catnick
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppvcgZBzb1r1qajlo1_500.png
Cookies
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppp7qQKCz1r1qajlo1_500.png
Maypole fun
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpphsgdR9t1r1qajlo1_500.png
things must be gettin desperate if they're stealing pictures of Justin Bieber :lol:
Yet to decide if this is a con or not - but a great gesture nonetheless, especially if it get's "official" adoption from a paper which looks possible: http://somethingniceforashraf.tumblr.com/
kininigin
10-08-2011, 16:16
It's about to kick off again
0cbVW_QS2eE
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 16:21
It's about to kick off again
0cbVW_QS2eE
:nocomment:
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 16:38
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14481036
1 day jail? So much for Cameron's fightback then :steam: These people should be facing serious time, not a slap on the wrist, what a complete farce our judicial system has become! :steam:
Beechwoods
10-08-2011, 17:13
It's about to kick off again
Thanks for the tip Darren ;)
worthingpagan
10-08-2011, 17:41
Thanks for the tip Darren ;)
Are these any use to you? http://www.safetyfirstaid.co.uk/Product/SFA/Plasters/Coverplast-Waterproof-Plasters.aspx
Beechwoods
10-08-2011, 17:47
A surreal moment in an ocean of chaos...
Techno Commander
10-08-2011, 17:48
Copper on duty during the riots sees a black bloke dancing on top of a large Ford car amidst the flames, and radios in for back-up:
"Big black bastard here, dancing on top of a car"
Operator:
"You can't say that over the police radio! You must use politically correct police language!"
Copper:
"OK.........
......Zulu.........Tango........Sierra........"
Beechwoods
10-08-2011, 18:04
*cough* let's keep it clean please. Or on topic :)
SteveTheShadow
10-08-2011, 19:29
I have to say,i agree with you john.The link at the bottom,was written by david icke 2 years ago and despite what alot of people think of his views on more esoteric matters,when it comes to matters that deal with banking,political,multi national companys,military,social issues ect he is pretty much bang on.
Anyone who has read his work or other researchers work,no full well the reasons why these things happen,it is planned,either directly or indirectly.It's easy to see,when you know what the desired outcome is.
http://www.davidicke.com/articles/problem-reaction-solution-mainmenu-41/20744-please-dont-riot--its-just-what-they-want
Well I have to say that I have never in my life read such a paranoid load of absolute unadulterated bollocks.
I'll comment no further.
kininigin
10-08-2011, 20:04
Well I have to say that I have never in my life read such a paranoid load of absolute unadulterated bollocks.
I'll comment no further.
Your entitled to your opinion,thanks for your comment :)
kininigin
10-08-2011, 20:06
Thanks for the tip Darren ;)
No problem, just have peoples safety at mind ;)
worthingpagan
11-08-2011, 00:10
let's all pile round beechwoods :cool::cool::cool:
worthingpagan
11-08-2011, 00:24
brave woman, and quite fanciable too :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14482697
Bit early to tell, but after another quiet night it does look like the youth have listened to the Prime Minister, and are finally respecting authority.
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/Alex_Steel1969/370782460.jpg
Bit early to tell, but after another quiet night it does look like the youth have listened to the Prime Minister, and are finally respecting authority.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/370782460.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1313136491&Signature=VXdy83PGD5f9EgymF8rs2Cd9O%2BM%3D
...err one assumes that you had a link to a humorous image Alex...the link appears to be broken ;)
As I'm guessing that your first statement was tongue in cheek...
Now fixed! :)
That's better...you had me worried for a second there Alex... :lolsign:
Beechwoods
12-08-2011, 14:48
If the news is to believed the only people who got nicked for being naughty were school teachers, straight 'A' students, ballet dancers and a couple of school kids. What is the world coming to :rolleyes:
If the news is to believed the only people who got nicked for being naughty were school teachers, straight 'A' students, ballet dancers and a couple of school kids. What is the world coming to :rolleyes:
...probably because the 'pros' know how to conceal themselves from CCTV, perhaps the above bunch were just impulse 'shoppers' ;)
If the news is to believed the only people who got nicked for being naughty were school teachers, straight 'A' students, ballet dancers and a couple of school kids. What is the world coming to :rolleyes:
Hi,
What all this is showing is that it is not the expected group causing trouble. Alot of people thought it most of the trouble makers are 14 to 18 black unemployed teenagers but we are seeing this is not the case.
About half of the are 18 & under including some 11 year olds. There has been a number of people in their 40s! We are seeing a real mix bag of people of all colours, classes, employed & unemployed, highly educated, rich & poor.
This leads to many people having different reasons for breaking the law.
The burning of the SONY warehouse has a strange twisted irony to all this nonsense. Not only the manufacturers of the youth icon the playstation but the PIAS stock burnt to the ground is a library of indie labels ( 4ad, domino, jagajaguar ) I cant order the new wooden shjips album on vinyl because the stock is destroyed.
It’s been rather interesting seeing who is turning up in court accused of participating in the riots.
Not quite the stereotype many had assumed.
Also rather concerning is that the guy the police shot it seems was unarmed and the bullet in another police persons radio was fired by one of their own; lucky guy.
Given the level of outrage felt by some during the riots it makes me glad we don’t have firearms freely available here; wearing a hoody, young, non white and out late at night; BANG, a dead innocent person if vigilantism had prevailed.
Despite all the calls to bring in the army, use rubber bullets, wheel out the water cannons, shoot em, hang em etc etc and the usual politicians issue sidestepping and attempting to blame the police force for inappropriate response, I feel unusually proud of our police force and of course our emergency services who imo carried out a measured and professional response to what I’m sure was a very frightening experience.
Stratmangler
12-08-2011, 20:51
H1TfZBjgG6c
Sad thing is you can punish the rioters all you want but the real meat in the soup should be collecting restitution from every scum bag that was involved and rebuilding London and helping affected shop owners ect...
It’s been rather interesting seeing who is turning up in court accused of participating in the riots.
Not quite the stereotype many had assumed.
Also rather concerning is that the guy the police shot it seems was unarmed and the bullet in another police persons radio was fired by one of their own; lucky guy.
I won't comment too much John, but what the media are picking out as a representation of those appearing at court, is a portion of the entire story and I'll say no more than that, in case my comments are misunderstood. Also, as I understand it Mark Duggan was armed with a handgun but he hadn't fired at police as was initially thought - the full results of the enquiry are yet to be published, so anything else, like the initial incorrect report, is speculation and something the nations media needs to be very careful about right now. It won't take much for it to start again and if it escalates we could be in real trouble.
I feel unusually proud of our police force and of course our emergency services who imo carried out a measured and professional response to what I’m sure was a very frightening experience.
+1
I feel unusually proud of our police force and of course our emergency services who imo carried out a measured and professional response to what I’m sure was a very frightening experience.
I am proud of our downtrodden Police force, too. However, there's Police and there's Police. At the height of the riots I drove past a traffic cop glibly pointing his hairdryer at the passing traffic. Say what? What was this fucker doing and why wasn't he helping to solve real crime with all the others?
Tosser :steam:
Vinyleyes
13-08-2011, 04:33
Russel Brand is a far far more insightful individual than generally given credit for ... Once again he has come up with an excellent piece here ... and much further reaching than anything we are likely to get from government ..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron
And ,, what a great observation about Boris ... :lolsign:
It's a well-written and thoughtful article. However, Brand has a large lefty-socialist chip on his shoulder. The reality is that neither the Labour nor Conservative parties have a clue how to handle it. Politicians are focused on their time in power so legislation is brought in that is not a long-term fix for anything. There's a lot of hot air in parliament, but not a lot of understanding - either of the miscreants who rioted or us upstanding middle classes who helplessly watched it happen.
It's quite simple understanding why it happened, the big problem is how do we solve it?
Joining Europe
The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984
The Children Acts of 1989 and 2004
The Human Rights Act 1998
A weak Immigration policy
A benefit system that is too easily abused
A weak judicial system
Insufficient investment in the prison system and the subsequent rehabilitation of offenders, which can be more influential than just locking somebody up. You can't take away somebodies liberty and think that's the end of the problem, as those people have to be reintroduced into society at some point
Juvenile cautions
ASBO's (what a joke)
Licensing Law
Modern TV soaps and dramas that glorify bad behaviour
THE MEDIA
Politicians who never really try to understand lower social classes and who fail to grasp that other cultures often don't view things the same way we do
Greed and savagery is in us all, its who we are.
Well put, Tim. What kind of government is going to put that right?
Vinyleyes
13-08-2011, 11:35
As Tim And Martin show in their posts ... it is quite easy to look at things that have not been done, or could be done, to improve things. The simple fact is that whichever government is in power does not do them .. and the reasons for this are quite straightforward but it involves people taking a quantum jump in the way they look at things.
As Russell states ..
Politicians don't represent the interests of people who don't vote. They barely care about the people who do vote. They look after the corporations who get them elected. Cameron only spoke out against News International when it became evident to us, US, the people, not to him (like Rose West, "He must've known") that the newspapers Murdoch controlled were happy to desecrate the dead in the pursuit of another exploitative, distracting story.
Why am I surprised that these young people behave destructively, "mindlessly", motivated only by self-interest? How should we describe the actions of the city bankers who brought our economy to its knees in 2010? Altruistic? Mindful? Kind? But then again, they do wear suits, so they deserve to be bailed out, perhaps that's why not one of them has been imprisoned. And they got away with a lot more than a few fucking pairs of trainers
And there you have it ... Politicians almost the world over do not have any power to change things if they go against corporate interests. The examples of these are endless .. from the destruction of the planet's lungs ... The Amazon rain forest .. to the massive pollution occasioned all over the planet by aforesaid corporations. Then they have the gall to push it onto the individual and make us feel guilty and pay extra taxes for our "carbon footprint" ... It is so blatant that people just do not see the big con that is being perpetrated.
Look at the banking bailout for goodness sake .. what a whitewash that was ... and it's happening all over again as ripples over American debt ( America is bankrupt by the way) shred the markets and bring potential to ruin people's life savings all over the world.
I could really go on and on ... I realise this may be a controversial standpoint .. and I am not going to enter into any debate here to justify it .. They are my beliefs made from my own observations, travels and internet studies and research over years. All the info is out there if you just spend 30 minutes on google a night for a week or two.
Everyone is full of stories of "how stupid of the government to do that ... couldn't they see what was going to happen" .... and the answer is NOT that the governments are stupid ... so turn your viewpoint around and instead of asking .. why the governments did whatever they did if they were trying to help .. when it was obvious it was a stupid thing to do ) .. instead of asking that .. look at this way ... Well of course the governments did that because they are NOT acting in our best interests ...
Once you make that adjustment then everything makes more sense .. and you can begin to look at the real cause of all the problems in the world ... The Agendas of the Corporations ( Banking, Arms, Big P harma Oil and Media) who run the world and have politicians installed simply to dance to their tunes .. These people start wars to improve their bottom line .... and they are not above assassination to stamp out threats to their domination.
Check out this website for starters .. http://www.wanttoknow.info/ just spend a little time looking through the topics ...
(and before anyone starts parroting "conspiracy theorist .. this site is made up from verifiable news from the mainstream agancies .. )
This website provides a concise, reliable introduction to vital information of which few are aware. We specialize in providing fact-filled news articles (http://www.wanttoknow.info/indexnewsarticles) and concise summaries (http://www.wanttoknow.info/summaries) of major cover-ups which impact our lives and world. All information is taken from the most reliable sources available and can be verified using the links provided. Sources are always noted, with links direct to the information source provided when possible. The WantToKnow.info team (http://www.wanttoknow.info/aboutus) presents this information as an opportunity for you to educate yourself and others, and to inspire us to strengthen democracy and to work together for the good of all.
:cool:
If you cling to an idea as the inalterable truth, then when the truth does come in person and knock at your door, you will not be able to open the door and accept it.
-Udana Sutta
Spectral Morn
13-08-2011, 12:47
Russel Brand is a far far more insightful individual than generally given credit for ... Once again he has come up with an excellent piece here ... and much further reaching than anything we are likely to get from government ..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron
And ,, what a great observation about Boris ... :lolsign:
Once again RB impresses me, in the way he writes and the content.
Regards D S D L
Once again RB impresses me, in the way he writes and the content.
+1
ursus262
14-08-2011, 19:46
A few months ago when I was commuting to London every day, I experienced first hand just how infuriating and rude people can be: pushing, shoving, aggression, selfishness. I lost count of the number of times I felt like lashing out and thumping someone on the train or in the street! And yet, somehow, I felt restrained from doing things that would have amounted to an assault and a breach of the law.
What stopped me from thumping that arrogant fellow passenger or pushing someone over in the street? I would like to think of myself as a moral and upstanding sort of person – a man who thinks it's morally and ethically wrong to inflict pain and suffering on a fellow human being – and that it would be that that restrained me. Despite this desire to think this way, I could not help but feel that something else was restraining my worst instincts: the fear that, having acquired a criminal record and a spell in prison, that I would lose my job, my home, my partner and my friends – in fact all of the things that are important to me.
My ghastly neighbour, a chav with good job and nice home, soon wound his neck in when I reported him to the police, twice, for inappropriate behaviour which included swearing. The consequences for him would be his reputation, as a cancer charity voluntary fund-raiser, would be in tatters. What we have in common (in fact the only thing we have in common) is that we are part of society and actively engage in it, and we both have a lot to lose, including our reputations, if we fell foul of the law.
We have nothing in common with the rioters and looters. Why? They have nothing: no jobs, no proper homes, no parents that really care for them or love them, no money, no education, no hope and no future. My friends who know me really well, know that I have been saying for years that we should watch out for the dispossessed – the underclass, those with nothing whatsoever to lose. I have borne witness, first-hand, in my own community, the absolute havoc and fear that these people can create. They are utterly ruthless because they nave nothing to lose.
Yet while this is going on, we have self-made millionaires, having gotten rich on having sold crap computers and word-processors (remember them?), humiliating middle-class oiks on a television game show, and we are all made to look up to these people as if they are somehow virtuous, benevolent, compassionate and caring.
I could go on about the financiers and how citizens have been reduced to mere consumers but I don't want to do that here. What I would say, however, is that something is fundamentally rotten in our society. These rioters won't go away: they are OUR problem, and a product of the society that ALL of us have helped to maintain.
Reid Malenfant
14-08-2011, 19:56
We have nothing in common with the rioters and looters. Why? They have nothing: no jobs, no proper homes, no parents that really care for them or love them, no money, no education, no hope and no future. My friends who know me really well, know that I have been saying for years that we should watch out for the dispossessed – the underclass, those with nothing whatsoever to lose. I have borne witness, first-hand, in my own community, the absolute havoc and fear that these people can create. They are utterly ruthless because they nave nothing to lose.
You really need to do a bit of reading :eyebrows: One female rioter has millionaires for parents. Another happens to be a social worker, in fact loads of them held down respectable jobs (which they are now in danger of losing).
Not all of them were unemployed & dispossessed. Yes, maybe a greater percentage might have been on the dole, but by no means all of them ;)
ursus262
14-08-2011, 20:29
You really need to do a bit of reading :eyebrows: One female rioter has millionaires for parents. Another happens to be a social worker, in fact loads of them held down respectable jobs (which they are now in danger of losing).
Not all of them were unemployed & dispossessed. Yes, maybe a greater percentage might have been on the dole, but by no means all of them ;)
But where did you get that information? Can you trust the source? Are you not sure that the source of the information did not selectively present information to provide a distorted picture? And if they did, why?
I have done a lot of reading, from a lot of sources, and come to my own conclusions which are in the post above.
You really need to do a bit of reading :eyebrows: One female rioter has millionaires for parents. Another happens to be a social worker, in fact loads of them held down respectable jobs (which they are now in danger of losing).
In respect of the discussion, however, I have nothing in common with them. I have a sense of morality and respect and would never, ever, join a riot. They did not. As for losing their jobs over what they did - good! Plenty of people need jobs who deserve them.
Reid Malenfant
14-08-2011, 20:43
Oh boy, yes i understand that we all might be being fed bullshite just so someone can make some kind of statement. It's just what the media do...
Have you noticed that it's not the governbent that doesn't appear to be controlling the agenda of what you read? It's the media!
Have you also noticed that it's not the voters that really control what goes on in the country as a whole, it's the big corporations that finance the governbents who create it :rolleyes:
All governbents are in the hands of those that finance them FFS. What the big corporations say goes. The corporations are just going to get bigger & we'll soon end up with multinationals that control continents. It's the logical conclusion of capitalism at the end of the day :eek:
anthonyTD
14-08-2011, 20:55
Does it have to be transparent too?...:)
More seriously I know what you mean about the hoods, look at this for example, it's in youths sizes!!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260764809590
...or even worse from sports direct!!!
http://www.sportsdirect.com/airwalk-goggle-jacket-mens-607146?src=google
GOOD GRIEF,
that first one is hideous!
:eek::lol::lolsign:
A...
ursus262
14-08-2011, 21:03
Oh boy, yes i understand that we all might be being fed bullshite just so someone can make some kind of statement. It's just what the media do...
Have you noticed that it's not the governbent that doesn't appear to be controlling the agenda of what you read? It's the media!
Have you also noticed that it's not the voters that really control what goes on in the country as a whole, it's the big corporations that finance the governbents who create it :rolleyes:
All governbents are in the hands of those that finance them FFS. What the big corporations say goes. The corporations are just going to get bigger & we'll soon end up with multinationals that control continents. It's the logical conclusion of capitalism at the end of the day :eek:
Of course, and that is why I am a social democrat. And Martin: I think you are missing the point because I believe that morality isn't entirely what this is all about. There are lots of different factors at work here, a lack of morality being one of them, that is causing so many problems at the moment. It's no good curling our lips and tut-tutting at the so-called "undeserving poor" for their fecklessness while we sit in our comfortable middle-class homes as if we don't have a part to play. We are all responsible for this mess. We are the ones who, collectively, repeatedly elected a government in the 1980s because of its tax-cutting agenda and destruction of government initiatives, because we wanted to line our own pockets. We are the ones who consume goods that are made in sweatshops in China and Bangladesh, driving the cars that are wrecking our planet, and denying life chances for our fellow citizens because we won't pay the taxes. We are the ones who bought the products of the Murdoch media empire because we wanted to learn about the sex lives of the rich and gossip about everyone else, yet moan with horror at the criminal behaviour of their employees. All of this is hypocrisy!
We can't have it both ways. I'm afraid we get the society and governance we deserve, and until we as a nation learn that lesson and actually hold our governments and their agencies to account, then things will never improve.
worthingpagan
14-08-2011, 21:07
I'm moving to Mars soon any rate :lol:
Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids.
In fact, it's as cold as hell.
ursus262
14-08-2011, 21:11
I'm moving to Mars soon any rate :lol:
France perhaps? :lol:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/ui2ik89f9350ed8viewattth131cca71ea5.jpg
But where did you get that information? Can you trust the source? Are you not sure that the source of the information did not selectively present information to provide a distorted picture? And if they did, why?
I have done a lot of reading, from a lot of sources, and come to my own conclusions which are in the post above.
Hi,
There are many reports of people from different backgrounds being charged. So have pleaded guilty, some haven't.
The news has been full of it. One of the first to come to light was the nursery school learning mentor. The daughter of the millionaire has been sent to crown court. She is a grade A* student at Exeter Uni.
There is a young lady who has just got a degree and hoped to be a social worker.
There are school kids,a semi pro footballer, a organic chef, a youth worker, an Olympic ambassador, a estate agent, many university students, a call centre worker, lifeguard, a barber, a ex - servicrman, someone in the army, a freelance journalist, a postman, a scaffolder, an Electrician, an accounts clerk amongst the people who have been charged.
The range has been from 11 year olds to people nearly 50. Most of the people arrested are over 20.
Not fully sure how many are unemployed.
Here is a selection of news reports.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-14495838
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/5428433/Chef-and-steward-among-rioters-charged
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692007/London-riots-youth-worker-and-Army-recruit-among-those-in-court.html
The link below contains names and info of people charged.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-magistrates-court-list#data
Vinyleyes
15-08-2011, 11:36
Of course, and that is why I am a social democrat. And Martin: I think you are missing the point because I believe that morality isn't entirely what this is all about. There are lots of different factors at work here, a lack of morality being one of them, that is causing so many problems at the moment. It's no good curling our lips and tut-tutting at the so-called "undeserving poor" for their fecklessness while we sit in our comfortable middle-class homes as if we don't have a part to play. We are all responsible for this mess. We are the ones who, collectively, repeatedly elected a government in the 1980s because of its tax-cutting agenda and destruction of government initiatives, because we wanted to line our own pockets. We are the ones who consume goods that are made in sweatshops in China and Bangladesh, driving the cars that are wrecking our planet, and denying life chances for our fellow citizens because we won't pay the taxes. We are the ones who bought the products of the Murdoch media empire because we wanted to learn about the sex lives of the rich and gossip about everyone else, yet moan with horror at the criminal behaviour of their employees. All of this is hypocrisy!
We can't have it both ways. I'm afraid we get the society and governance we deserve, and until we as a nation learn that lesson and actually hold our governments and their agencies to account, then things will never improve.
:exactly: ...................... and ... to quote these words ...........
"We, all of us, are getting the government we deserve. We have rights and obligations as citizens to step forward and communicate our desires, wants and beliefs to our elected officials, and to vote them out of office when they fail us, which I think many of them have done for years. We have the right to petition our government and demand accountability. We the people have the right to determine who represents us, and should more actively consider who our representatives are, and what their intentions are when governing."
But do any of us actually do anything .... ?? :( ... We still buy the controlled newspapers, watch the censored news, and still actually think that politicians actually have a choice in what they do .. instead of finally accepting that they are in the pocket of the Global corps.
Until we start boycotting global corp products .. and that means making some sacrfices in what we buy .. and spending time on the internet and places to educate ourselves ... then nothing ever will happen.
We could start by researching which companies produce their products ethically ,, and then start voting with our hard earned cash if they are producing sweat shop goods .. or are companies like Monsanto and the like ..
We could even start a thread .. to exchange news on this and spread our findings .. Now that would actually be a small step towards doing something ... and .. as the saying goes ..
"Even the longest journey begins with the first step" :cool:
( I sincerely hope Guinness are ethical .... :lolsign: ... )
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/ui2ik89f9350ed8viewattth131cca71ea5.jpg
:lolsign:
kininigin
15-08-2011, 12:20
"Even the longest journey begins with the first step" :cool:
That 'journey' is well on the way,and those on that journey,are trying to get people to join them,or at least get them to realise there's a journey to take.
How bumpy that journey becomes,depends on how many and how quickly they decide to join in.
Of course, and that is why I am a social democrat. And Martin: I think you are missing the point because I believe that morality isn't entirely what this is all about. There are lots of different factors at work here, a lack of morality being one of them, that is causing so many problems at the moment. It's no good curling our lips and tut-tutting at the so-called "undeserving poor" for their fecklessness while we sit in our comfortable middle-class homes as if we don't have a part to play. We are all responsible for this mess. We are the ones who, collectively, repeatedly elected a government in the 1980s because of its tax-cutting agenda and destruction of government initiatives, because we wanted to line our own pockets. We are the ones who consume goods that are made in sweatshops in China and Bangladesh, driving the cars that are wrecking our planet, and denying life chances for our fellow citizens because we won't pay the taxes. We are the ones who bought the products of the Murdoch media empire because we wanted to learn about the sex lives of the rich and gossip about everyone else, yet moan with horror at the criminal behaviour of their employees. All of this is hypocrisy!
We can't have it both ways. I'm afraid we get the society and governance we deserve, and until we as a nation learn that lesson and actually hold our governments and their agencies to account, then things will never improve.
Martin, he's a democrat all right,they can't just except that some people are just scum undeserving of the air they breath. There always has to be some deep philosophical reason for it we unwashed idiots are just to narrow minded to understand.
Sorry, but the plain truth is the rioters should all be hanged by the neck until pronounced dead and there family sterilized as to prevent humanity from devolving as a whole. :doh:
Apes show more humanity than the thugs I saw rioting in one of the worlds greatest country's,OFF WITH THERE HEADS!!
WOStantonCS100
15-08-2011, 22:58
Wow, perhaps now would be a good time to take a few steps back and take a breather... I learned from "that other thread" that what we don't want to do is get too pointed at each other, here. That serves no purpose and doesn't affect this situation we're discussing in anyway.
worthingpagan
15-08-2011, 23:26
Martin, he's a democrat all right,they can't just except that some people are just scum undeserving of the air they breath. There always has to be some deep philosophical reason for it we unwashed idiots are just to narrow minded to understand.
Sorry, but the pain truth is the rioters should all be hanged by the neck until pronounced dead and there family sterilized as to prevent humanity from devolving as a whole. :doh:
Apes show more humanity than the thugs I saw rioting in one of the worlds greatest country's,OFF WITH THERE HEADS!!
You know what? I agree with you ;)
When I saw that helpless bleeding kid,looking for a shred of kindness being robbed.
Then the heartless prick throwing his stuff away.
I saw my trusting son in that kid. I wanted to beat that piece of crap on two legs till he was a helpless quadriplegic then pee on his motionless body.
I guess I need confession and a damned stiff drink to let this go,as seeing that was very personal even though I am on the other side of the pond.
I simply won't be put in the same category as those thugs, however you want to do it: be it class, earnings, education, locality or whatever. Nothing would provoke me into doing what I saw, and that's what separates me from them. I can only take so much liberal 'try to understand their point of view' bollocks before my blood starts to boil.
Martin,to understand their point of view,first you would have to piss on all the morals in your soul,hate your self,God,your family and everyone you meet.Have no respect for your Country and city.Pretty much become a soulless liberal.
Then ud get it mate!:cool:
Only a real gutter snipe behaves like that,not men.
Time has been hard for me more than one I lived in a camp trailer on construction sites,not much more than the cloths on my back but Never did I even think of looting,burning and robbing,instead I worked from sun up to sun down and once even on Christmas. Ok there aren't a lot of jobs but burning peoples business some how makes things better? You'd have to be a pretty sick person to understand those vermin.
I'm glad you don't.
ursus262
16-08-2011, 06:45
It's not about 'understanding' these people. The fact is, we're stuck with them. The real question is: how do we get to the root cause of the problem so we can tackle it and prevent these riots from happening again. It's about dealing with the facts and getting to the real problems. If we don't do this now, then we will have missed a real opportunity to do something constructive.
And isn't it strange how people who don't live in our country always feel fit to tell us what we should be doing?
We've given them too much and they're used to it. State benefits and the lack of need for claimants to do at least community work are a joke. We need to start again with a generation of parents who are made to take responsibility for their children (i.e. all punishments for under-aged children go to the parents) and more rigorous benefits checks with the need for community service and the requirement to take jobs offered to them. It's not as if there aren't jobs out there - why do you think thousands of Poles and Estonians etc. come over here and do menial cleaning jobs? Because they have a work ethic! Meanwhile it's too easy for others to sit on their backsides, claim benefits and then complain about not getting 'respect'. Yeah, right.
It's not as if there aren't jobs out there - why do you think thousands of Poles and Estonians etc. come over here and do menial cleaning jobs? Because they have a work ethic! Meanwhile it's too easy for others to sit on their backsides, claim benefits and then complain about not getting 'respect'. Yeah, right.
Freakin' yee-hah, my man! :clap:
If I were in charge, I'd be firing a few rockets up certain lazy bastard's backsides!!!
Marco.
This thread should be sent to the PM, cos this is how the good people of the country are thinking right now.
We've given them too much and they're used to it. State benefits and the lack of need for claimants to do at least community work are a joke. We need to start again with a generation of parents who are made to take responsibility for their children (i.e. all punishments for under-aged children go to the parents) and more rigorous benefits checks with the need for community service and the requirement to take jobs offered to them. It's not as if there aren't jobs out there - why do you think thousands of Poles and Estonians etc. come over here and do menial cleaning jobs? Because they have a work ethic! Meanwhile it's too easy for others to sit on their backsides, claim benefits and then complain about not getting 'respect'. Yeah, right.
It's a hard circle to break. We're into something like a 3rd generation of large numbers of kids who leave school being barely able to read and write. The culture of placing no value on education, authority and reward for working is now so deeply ingrained with very worryingly large clusters within the population. Grandparents and parents are passing this lack of values onto their kids. Breaking out of this cycle cannot be achieved via a quick fix, it's going to be a long haul across what could be at best a decade or two.
Indeed, Clive, for reasons known only to them Labour's 'New Deal' in education and subsequent policies made it politically incorrect to teach children proper grammar and spelling in junior schools. Once these cohorts moved into secondary schools there was no rescuing it. I am appalled at the quality of written and spoken English that my degree placement technicians have, not to mention newly qualified teachers.
I studied all this for my PGCE and it just made my head shake the more I read about it.
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 09:53
Putting the world to rights from the safety of our living room chairs will make no difference. Posting our feelings and theorys on internet forums will make no difference. This issue will go round in circles and keep biting us on our arses till somebody in power does something radical. Pressure needs to be applied in a concerted manner to those who can make changes. Some 100K+ have done that with a petition, but even that has been largely rubbished by many posters. :scratch:
Mark wrote;
"Putting the world to rights from the safety of our living room chairs will make no difference. Posting our feelings and theorys on internet forums will make no difference. This issue will go round in circles and keep biting us on our arses till somebody in power does something radical. Pressure needs to be applied in a concerted manner to those who can make changes. Some 100K+ have done that with a petition, but even that has been largely rubbished by many posters."
I couldn’t agree more. We need a much more proactive approach. Tell you what, how about rioting? :eyebrows:
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 11:59
Indeed, Clive, for reasons known only to them Labour's 'New Deal' in education and subsequent policies made it politically incorrect to teach children proper grammar and spelling in junior schools. Once these cohorts moved into secondary schools there was no rescuing it. I am appalled at the quality of written and spoken English that my degree placement technicians have, not to mention newly qualified teachers.
I studied all this for my PGCE and it just made my head shake the more I read about it.
And the Tories have done sooooooo much for society haven't they.....not. Strange that throughout history in England, civil unrest in the last 100 years has only come under true blue rule
And the Tories have done sooooooo much for society haven't they.....not. Strange that throughout history in England, civil unrest in the last 100 years has only come under true blue rule
Here we go :popcorn:
And the Tories have done sooooooo much for society haven't they.....not. Strange that throughout history in England, civil unrest in the last 100 years has only come under true blue rule
You really think that 3 generations of people growing up with little or no regard for educations, authority or hard work is a Tory failing?
I'd agree it's a political failing but both blue and red parties have to shoulder the blame along with the electorate who put them in power (yes that's you and me). To put a party political spin on this is not helpful and miles off target. Indeed it's that sort of short term political posture/spin that helped get us to this place.....
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 12:25
ermmmmmm, how come you never spotted the comments about Labour dumming down the classrooms by your tory friend martin t? i agree entirely with your comments, it is not a single political party that is responsible for this mess
Guys,
Let's stick to the thread topic and not turn this into a Labour vs. Tory thing. Ta! :)
Marco.
. . . how come you never spotted the comments about Labour dumming down the classrooms
Possibly because it's based on an element of fact and can be evidenced, whereas your comment was just political propaganda (IMO). Anyway that's me out if this thread is going to turn into a political who did what debate.
EDIT: I see Marco was thinking the same way whilst I was typing, thanks Marco I wholeheartedly agree.
No it won't, Tim, I can assure you - see my last post! ;)
Guys, as I said, Labour vs. Tory-style political debates are unwelcome on AoS, do please desist.
Marco.
I cited a specific, verifiable example of a policy that stuffed educational quality. At no time did I say that it's a problem that only one party created.
Ah, I see that we're on the same page :)
ermmmmmm, how come you never spotted the comments about Labour dumming down the classrooms by your tory friend martin t? i agree entirely with your comments, it is not a single political party that is responsible for this mess
Fair point but I chose to read it as these things happened to take place when Labour were in power. Had the Tories been in power something difference would have happened which may have been better or worse.
IMO the main issue is the culture being handed down to children over the last 10 to 20 years. This has resulted is some classes of kids being virtually impossible to teach - it's now often more about crowd control than teaching. Teachers aren't perfect but some children come to school with lousy behaviours, their parents will usually undermine the teachers so the cycle is set, bad behaviour and little learning, leading to a life outside of what I hope is still the main part of society.
Meanwhile, and new "Big Brother" is swinging into action, showing exactly how to behave if you want to be rich and famous. Personally I think a lot of this (not all, but a lot) can be placed at the door of the media.
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 15:04
If you ask me, which i know you're not, the breakdown in our society began almost as soon as National Service was ended in @1960. I believe if you want to teach discipline, respect, unselfishness and fairness, this was the way people were bonded together and learnt all those things. All well & good talking about it in the classroom (or not as the case may now be) but without practical hands on, doing it, experience, most young people are far more likely to feel they're being told what to do just because someone who is telling them is older. If kids went straight into National Service from school, at 18, did 3 years, they could then go to college or work, having fully understood the concepts society talks about but most don't understand.
If my previous postings on this thread were misinterpreted or not accurately described, thereby leading to offence, I apologise.
And what about those kids that 3 years of "National Service" would destroy?
From what I can see any such training is only going to teach that bullying and gaining respect based on fear is the way to behave.
But of course it depends on what you define National Service as being.
ursus262
16-08-2011, 15:58
And what about those kids that 3 years of "National Service" would destroy?
From what I can see any such training is only going to teach that bullying and gaining respect based on fear is the way to behave.
But of course it depends on what you define National Service as being.
Quite!
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 16:39
none of you really have a solution, or want a solution, all you do is go round in circles moaning. None of you have put forward even an attempt at offering any kind of solution to the problem. :rolleyes:
Standards have been in decline for years. No respect for elders, authority, the environment. Bad attitude towards work and money. Being famous is now seen as a career. Kids want to be famous but not for any particular reason, they just want the money and the celebrity. Big brother lead the way in showing how to behave and become famous; like a drunken idiot, with no respect or intelligence. The fast track to fame. Kids just want it all and they want it now. I'd say the last 15 to 20 years of tv have had a major influence.
none of you really have a solution, or want a solution, all you do is go round in circles moaning. None of you have put forward even an attempt at offering any kind of solution to the problem. :rolleyes:
There has been plenty of analysis and solutions proferred if you want to read them. Here are a few again to be starting with:
Proper teaching of the English language, grammar and spelling, at primary school level
Bring back the 11+ exam
Bring back vocational training and apprenticeships
Make state benefits *limited*, require evidence for long term disability
Community service for all benefits claimants
Spoken English a requirement for all naturalisations
Kill *dead* any notion of sharia law - we already have laws in this country, thank you
Stop the idea that all A-level students should enter University, encourage proper careers opportunities at school leaving age
Limit the maximum salary anyone can be paid for a job - includes bankers and footballers, for a start
Government makes positive discrimination for all jobs given to British citizens and financially punishes companies using foreign telesales & IT support
Do you get the flavour? We are not lacking in ideas.
none of you really have a solution, or want a solution, all you do is go round in circles moaning. None of you have put forward even an attempt at offering any kind of solution to the problem. :rolleyes:
I certainly want a solution but first we have to:
1) define root causes
2) define what needs to be fixed now (fixing the original root causes may not now be valid)
3) provide a viable set of solutions that are palatable to the nation
Devising with a series of laws, carrots, sticks etc is not easy if they are to be acceptable to the masses. Even then some of the options the masses would want won't be acceptable either (eg shooting all the looters). Tightly regulated state TV could be one way but you'd have to block satellite signals and such regulation won't be acceptable.
It's really hard to see how we get out of this mess in a way that's acceptable to the majority.
ursus262
16-08-2011, 16:54
There has been plenty of analysis and solutions proferred if you want to read them. Here are a few again to be starting with:
Proper teaching of the English language, grammar and spelling, at primary school level
Bring back the 11+ exam
Bring back vocational training and apprenticeships
Make state benefits *limited*, require evidence for long term disability
Community service for all benefits claimants
Spoken English a requirement for all naturalisations
Kill *dead* any notion of sharia law - we already have laws in this country, thank you
Stop the idea that all A-level students should enter University, encourage proper careers opportunities at school leaving age
Limit the maximum salary anyone can be paid for a job - includes bankers and footballers, for a start
Government makes positive discrimination for all jobs given to British citizens and financially punishes companies using foreign telesales & IT support
Do you get the flavour? We are not lacking in ideas.
Now you're talking sense!
And while we're at it, bring manufacturing back to the UK.
none of you really have a solution, or want a solution, all you do is go round in circles moaning. None of you have put forward even an attempt at offering any kind of solution to the problem. :rolleyes:
And there you have it Mark, it's a societal problem that we (us) don't have the stomach to solve and have let it fester to this point because it's easier to moan about it and blame someone else - we have become very good at that.
In an Australian accent:
Q "How can you tell when another plane load of poms has touched down at Sydney airport?"
A "Because when they turn the engines off, you can still hear the whining noise"
:cool:
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 17:01
so how do you propose to introduce all these wonderful ideas and why do you think no one has already attempted it? Anb who's gonna pay for it all and oversee it? While we're on the matter, if you're talking about lack of finance as a stumbling block, why not tax the rich more?
worthingpagan
16-08-2011, 17:03
There has been plenty of analysis and solutions proferred if you want to read them. Here are a few again to be starting with:
Proper teaching of the English language, grammar and spelling, at primary school level
Bring back the 11+ exam
Bring back vocational training and apprenticeships
Make state benefits *limited*, require evidence for long term disability
Community service for all benefits claimants
Spoken English a requirement for all naturalisations
Kill *dead* any notion of sharia law - we already have laws in this country, thank you
Stop the idea that all A-level students should enter University, encourage proper careers opportunities at school leaving age
Limit the maximum salary anyone can be paid for a job - includes bankers and footballers, for a start
Government makes positive discrimination for all jobs given to British citizens and financially punishes companies using foreign telesales & IT support
Do you get the flavour? We are not lacking in ideas.
Yes, loud and clear, selective discrimination it is then (perhaps this kind of logic explains why you're not the one who's dishing out the rules)
There has been plenty of analysis and solutions proferred if you want to read them. Here are a few again to be starting with:
Proper teaching of the English language, grammar and spelling, at primary school level
Bring back the 11+ exam
Bring back vocational training and apprenticeships
Make state benefits *limited*, require evidence for long term disability
Community service for all benefits claimants
Spoken English a requirement for all naturalisations
Kill *dead* any notion of sharia law - we already have laws in this country, thank you
Stop the idea that all A-level students should enter University, encourage proper careers opportunities at school leaving age
Limit the maximum salary anyone can be paid for a job - includes bankers and footballers, for a start
Government makes positive discrimination for all jobs given to British citizens and financially punishes companies using foreign telesales & IT support
Do you get the flavour? We are not lacking in ideas.
I agree with much of what you propose, the one item I'm against is the 11+.
Around 10% of people are dyslexic, once they learn strategies around this, usually in their mid-teens, their academic performance is transformed - varying teaching methods helps too. Even now teaching is one size fits all. It's the dyslexics who often possess the highly creative minds we need for the nation's inventiveness.
While we're at it let's find a way to stop companies being run by psychopaths.
Yes, loud and clear, selective discrimination it is then (perhaps this kind of logic explains why you're not the one who's dishing out the rules)
It's more about being British and looking after the British first. Plenty of other countries do similar things, they may not be enshrined in law but they are the norm in some countries.
Even Wales has language requirements in the Public Sector.....
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