View Full Version : Social unrest - very concerned now.
Been trying to stay out of this, but I was talking to a teacher (who teaches at a large comprehensive) last night in my local pub. He's completely disillusioned with his profession and desperately wants a career change.
He teaches general science to younger pupils and chemistry to 'A' level. The subject he teaches is now so dumbed-down that it's barely recognisable as 'science' (although that's for a different thread), but his major problem is that of discipline. He says it is now so bad that in any 45 minute teaching period, he manages about 5 minutes of actual teaching as the pupils' attention-span is non-existent.
Basically, he's confronted by 30 teenagers that have no concept of sitting still and paying attention. He has no effective sanction to anyone who misbehaves as even shouting at them is against his school's code of conduct. Requests for parents to come in and see him about their offspring's behaviour are either ignored or, in some cases, the parents turn up and threaten him for 'picking on' their kids. Give kid's detention and they simply don't turn up for it. Exclusions don't work because the pupils don't want to come to school anyway. He says that each new year's intake is worse than the lasts.
So you have no respect for teachers and schools that have no means of imposing disipline or order.
Last Saturday night, I was leaving the pub when a couple of police officers were walking along the street. A bunch of youths who were congregating on an area off the main street (know locally as 'the Prom') started to hurl abuse at these police who just carried on walking past ignoring it. Apparently it isn't an offence any more to use foul and abusive language to the police: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8599258/Swearing-at-police-not-an-offence.html
It doesn't take a genius to see where we are going wrong when there's a generation out there with no sense of right or wrong and no concept of authority.
Been trying to stay out of this, but I was talking to a teacher (who teaches at a large comprehensive) last night in my local pub. He's completely disillusioned with his profession and desperately wants a career change.
He teaches general science to younger pupils and chemistry to 'A' level. The subject he teaches is now so dumbed-down that it's barely recognisable as 'science' (although that's for a different thread), but his major problem is that of discipline. He says it is now so bad that in any 45 minute teaching period, he manages about 5 minutes of actual teaching as the pupils' attention-span is non-existent.
Basically, he's confronted by 30 teenagers that have no concept of sitting still and paying attention. He has no effective sanction to anyone who misbehaves as even shouting at them is against his school's code of conduct. Requests for parents to come in and see him about their offspring's behaviour are either ignored or, in some cases, the parents turn up and threaten him for 'picking on' their kids. Give kid's detention and they simply don't turn up for it. Exclusions don't work because the pupils don't want to come to school anyway. He says that each new year's intake is worse than the lasts.
So you have no respect for teachers and schools that have no means of imposing disipline or order.
Last Saturday night, I was leaving the pub when a couple of police officers were walking along the street. A bunch of youths who were congregating on an area off the main street (know locally as 'the Prom') started to hurl abuse at these police who just carried on walking past ignoring it. Apparently it isn't an offence any more to use foul and abusive language to the police: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8599258/Swearing-at-police-not-an-offence.html
It doesn't take a genius to see where we are going wrong when there's a generation out there with no sense of right or wrong and no concept of authority.
I very much agree! The only part I don't agree with is the dumbing down, having just been through GCSE and A levels with my kids I believe there is more to learn than before but what is easier is that for many courses it's possible to re-take exams multiple times.
Discipline and sanctions in schools is a major issue.
He's completely disillusioned with his profession and desperately wants a career change.
As are most of the countries police officers with more than 10 years service, morale is at it's lowest point in living memory.
Yes, loud and clear, selective discrimination it is then (perhaps this kind of logic explains why you're not the one who's dishing out the rules)
How else could you achieve it? And the fact that no-one has had the courage to implement them is why we're in this mess!
SteveTheShadow
16-08-2011, 18:23
Fair point but I chose to read it as these things happened to take place when Labour were in power. Had the Tories been in power something difference would have happened which may have been better or worse.
IMO the main issue is the culture being handed down to children over the last 10 to 20 years. This has resulted is some classes of kids being virtually impossible to teach - it's now often more about crowd control than teaching. Teachers aren't perfect but some children come to school with lousy behaviours, their parents will usually undermine the teachers so the cycle is set, bad behaviour and little learning, leading to a life outside of what I hope is still the main part of society.
You have it dead right Clive!
As a teacher and senior manager in a Primary School. I regularly come across children who have absolutely no compunction about telling you to f**k off to your face.
"OK" you may say. "Kick them out of the classroom....expel them" etc etc. Trouble is I'm afraid it does not work like that. Since the Education Reform Act 1988, brought in the National Curriculum, the curriculum has become one of entitlement and inclusion, enforced by OFSTED, SAT league tables exclusion figure penalties, community cohesion, performance management, accountability, and a whole host of other targets the staff and management are expected to attain. A school is judged on how well it caters for the needs of all pupils. The philosophy is quite simple "there are no bad pupils only bad teachers". This philosophy is where Chris Woodhead's famous "15000 incompetent teachers" came from.
Along with this came the idea of "Reflective Practice", which is still ingrained into all teaching trainees by the Universities and training institutions.
This reflective practice ideology combined with the "no bad pupils..." argument is an explosive combination. Because teachers are required to reflect on and constantly evaluate their practice, a group of badly disruptive pupils can have a devastating effect on the self-worth and esteem of a practicing professional.
It becomes a vicious circle. here is how it operates:
Pupil disrupts lesson, objectives are not met, teacher judges their own lesson as unsatisfactory, evaluation kicks in, reflection and analysis of "what went wrong?, What did I do that caused the problem? What am I going to do to ensure this behaviour does not happen tomorrow?" "How is the lesson I did today that did not work for this pupil going to change so that it does work for him/her?"
The next day teacher attempts the lesson with aspects changed, pace might be increased, less talk and chalk, more practical, more group work, more cooperative discovery sessions? Trouble is today the child has come in with a poor attitude, has been in trouble before the first bell, has just returned from the Head's office after being told they are to miss their playtimes for the rest of the day and is as mad as hell.
Lesson has started well and kids are all on task, in walks kid from head's office. whacks child around head on way to seat. That table is disrupted and the contagion spreads like wildfire. Teacher has to stop lesson. Kid does not want to be there does not want to listen and begins disruption pattern again.
Lesson fails again.
Teacher reflects, regroups re-plans and cycle repeats again and again.
Teacher trapped in this ingrained reflective teaching loop becomes more and more convinced of his/her inability to do the job. Performance management looms up on the radar. Senior managers observe a lesson. Disruption occurs and the lesson is graded unsatisfactory.
Teacher's performance spirals downwards until they can no longer function and have to go off on long term sick leave.
now we are in te position where the class have a succession of different teachers over the six months or so that the class teacher is away from school. Senior managers become buried in paperwork, maybe they are trying their level best to get the child referred to an Educational Psychologist
Social Services might be involved. Can they get some respite care for the parents, can they get the child into a Pupil Referral Unit where they have the specialists necessary to reach children like this? Money is tight doncha know and these things are being downsized, units closed. Principle of "inclusion" means mainstream is going to have to deal with this.
Consistency has now vanished, problem gets worse, whole class is now failing to make the progress it is targeted to make over the academic year.
Questions now begin to be asked about what is happening in the school.
If the class is a Year Six class, then SAT results that fail to meet the expected outcomes may trigger an OFSTED inspection and so it goes on.
Meanwhile the disruptive pupil fails, leaves primary school as they came in with no social skills, little sense of right and wrong, moves to the local Comprehensive, where they meet up with other disaffected kids from the feeder primaries where the same scenarios have been repeated over and over again. They get disgorged from the other end as hard cases, convinced that society owes them, no qualifications as they mostly truant and when they are there disrupt the life of the school, virtually unemployable.
The casualties in all of this are the disaffected kids themselves, the other children who have had their education disrupted by these people, the teachers who are leaving the profession at an unprecedented rate and Govermnents of either colour that think the beatings must continue until morale improves.
To those who think education has been dumbed down, I say you are talking utter nonsense! Primary, Secondary and Higher Education professionals work their butts off, trying to achieve targets that become more and more difficult to attain, with less and resources to do the job properly. Education is a political football and the losers are Society as a whole.
These looters, criminals, rioters, whatever we like to call them are not a product of a decent law-abiding society, they are entirely a product of Govermnents, the media, entitlement culture and accountants. Society is not broken, despite what the politicians would like you to believe. For they and the rest of the entities listed above to have the gall to blame anyone but themselves for this mess, beggars belief. But as usual it is the moderate, decent sections of our society who have to suffer this horror.
The professional casualties at the sharp end of all this might get a phased return to work, they might keep taking their anti-depressants and maybe rationalise what has happened, that it is not their fault, that they are not useless at their job, that forces way beyond their control are at work and they are not to blame.
A large number of them might already have said "enough is enough".
Rant over
I must admit I find all this highly amusing.
Other countries have had rioting for a couple of years now and the great British middle class have sat on their little island seemingly oblivious to the state of the economy here and in the rest of the world. Has it really only taken a handful hooded youths, assorted criminals and a few hangers on getting their kicks to rouse us from our sleep ?
Who said rioting doesn’t work :lol:
Well, once we’ve all had our cups of coffee and washed the sleep from our eyes perhaps its time to pick up our umbrellas and ventured out into the current foul weather of social decline.
Its not just England, it’s the bulk of the western economies. The system has gone horribly Pete Tong. We took too much from it, got greedy, encouraged huge debt and unrealistic expectations of limitless growth and prosperity. Somehow despite the obvious warnings history has given us regard the rise and fall of every empire before us for some inexplicable reason we thought we could beat the clock and stop the natural order of the social evolutionary process.
You can rush around like headless chickens jamming your fingers in every hole in the dyke you can find but the simple fact is the water is coming and the dyke is going to fail
Why this happens to civilization after civilization, ideology after ideology has been a question that greater minds than this forum is ever going to offer have struggled with since the dawn of civilization.
I don’t feel the slightest bit of sympathy for my generation. What more advantages could we possibly have had? We didn’t have to go to war, we enjoyed more personal freedom and prosperity than any other generation, we had free education, a wonderful national health system, a political system at least based on democratic ideals a relatively uncensored press. Ffs, even our music attempted to teach us that perhaps there was a better way.
And what did we do, voted for the politicians who promised us further prosperity without social or economic responsibility.
While the majority of the rest of the world brought up whole families in single rooms, looked after their elderly and attempted to teach their young some kind of code to live their lives by we packed our elderly of to homes, blamed teachers for not teaching our kids moral standards and bought oversized houses and whinged about taxation.
Well we made the bed and now we’re going to have to lie in it.
Me, I’ll be trying to spend as much time as I can with those I care about, teach what little I know to those in the next generation who will listen and attempt to prepare both myself and my family for what will be some very rough times ahead.
I suggest you lot do the same.
Let’s face it, you’re not going to achieve anything with your petitions and forum ranting are you? You’re all too sacred and comfortable to take any direct action to bring about change and one thing history has taught us is that radical change can only come with radical action
Let’s face it, you’re not going to achieve anything with your petitions and forum ranting are you? You’re all too sacred and comfortable to take any direct action to bring about change and one thing history has taught us is that radical change can only come with radical action
Spot on John, I'm bored with this thread now, it's run it's course and as you say we made the bed.
Last Saturday night, I was leaving the pub when a couple of police officers were walking along the street. A bunch of youths who were congregating on an area off the main street (know locally as 'the Prom') started to hurl abuse at these police who just carried on walking past ignoring it. Apparently it isn't an offence any more to use foul and abusive language to the police: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8599258/Swearing-at-police-not-an-offence.html
This is exactly what I mean when I say about the lowering of standards. Things that were once unacceptable are now accepted as the norm. When did we all lie down and accept that?
Swearing appeared more and more on tv in the 90's and as we know, tv has a massive influence on kids, as do the music videos of the time. MTV has become more like a soft porn channel. When did that happen?
Some people somewhere started pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable by making harder edged tv shows and stand up comedy. That's ok to an extent, but someone needs to have the balls to say "no, we're not putting that out on air" (mentioning no names *cough* Little Britain *cough*), but no, they let it happen and you can go back from that.
Thing Fish
16-08-2011, 18:36
I have two close friends that have recently given up teaching. One of them (a teacher of nearly 20 years) said he just couldn't take the stress anymore. The kids just didn't want to learn and were really agressive. Some just sat in class with headphones on and hoods up...!!! When he confronted them he was told to fook off or he would be battered after school. (he's not a small chap either). He now runs his own woodwork business and every day he told me he smiles and looks forward to the day.
What a sad story.
Let’s face it, you’re not going to achieve anything with your petitions and forum ranting are you? You’re all too sacred and comfortable to take any direct action to bring about change and one thing history has taught us is that radical change can only come with radical action
Great post John, but what action do you suggest?
SteveTheShadow
16-08-2011, 18:39
Spot on John, I'm bored with this thread now, it's run it's course and as you say we made the bed.
For God's sake stop blaming us, we or whatever and start looking at those who are really to blame.
This started 32 years ago and has been continually perpetrated by governments of both colours ever since.
Dear I speak the name of this person/persons?........ go on then
.........................THATCHER and all who have come thereafter.
We have already asked that this not be made a political thread. Please no responses to the THATCHER comment.
Dear I speak the name of this person/persons?........ go on then.
I guess you can blame who you like, it's a free country. Did you say you were a teacher?
Individual party politics are best left out as Marco has politely requested already.
Let’s face it, you’re not going to achieve anything with your petitions and forum ranting are you?
Indeed, but let's not forget that this is a discussion site. I'd far rather people had a good rant, about whatever is bothering them, and got it off their chests, provoking responses from others in the process, than clamped up and said nothing! ;)
As long as we leave the 'I hate <insert your loathed political party or politician here>' thing out of it, discussions like this are fine, and often very interesting. So carry on, folks!
Marco.
I don't believe we have to change the situation via a revolution, rioting middle classes or whatever. There are people who do their bit already. My wife for example. She used to be a classroom teacher but it wore her down, then we had kids so she stopped work. She studied dyslexia as a post grad and now works for a charity coaching dyslexic children. Often these children cannot concentrate or work in the way non-dyslexics do so they become poor academic performers, some become disruptive. With specialised coaching the changes are huge, they gain self-confidence and start achieving. I do a little myself, help out at our local athletics club. It's not revolution or nothing. If folks put their particular skills to good use and help out we can and do make a difference.
SteveTheShadow
16-08-2011, 19:38
We have already asked that this not be made a political thread. Please no responses to the THATCHER comment.
Dear oh dear can't we read?
Thatcher and all who came thereafter was the comment.
Individual party politics huh....don't see it myself
Did you say you were a teacher?
Yes I am Tim and your point is?
I suggest you go back and read my admittedly rather long post.
Never know you might get an insight into what goes on at at least one of the many sharp ends of this mess.
kininigin
16-08-2011, 19:39
"Just look at us. Everything is backwards. Everything is upside-down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religion destroys spirituality."---Michael Ellner
Society,in a nut shell.
"Yes I am and your point is?"
:sofa:
Yes I am Tim and your point is?
I suggest you go back and read my admittedly rather long post.
Never know you might get an insight into what goes on at at least one of the many sharp ends of this mess.
Indeed, sorry please accept my apologies - didn't mean to offend those at the 'sharp end'.
My wife for example. She used to be a classroom teacher but it wore her down, then we had kids so she stopped work. She studied dyslexia as a post grad and now works for a charity coaching dyslexic children. Often these children cannot concentrate or work in the way non-dyslexics do so they become poor academic performers, some become disruptive. With specialised coaching the changes are huge, they gain self-confidence and start achieving.
My partner, Ruth, is a special needs teacher at primary level and teaches dyslexic children. What she achieves is remarkable and it catches them at the right age. My (secondary) school has a large special needs department and they too are kept very busy. Not all educational programmes have been failures.
Thatcher and all who came thereafter was the comment.
Individual party politics huh....don't see it myself
That is not the emphasis you put into your statement and you know it.
My partner, Ruth, is a special needs teacher at primary level and teaches dyslexic children. What she achieves is remarkable and it catches them at the right age. My (secondary) school has a large special needs department and they too are kept very busy. Not all educational programmes have been failures.
....I can't recall the exact stats but the rate of dyslexia in prisons in far higher than the national average, this could be for all sorts of reason but I believe it shows what happens to some of those who don't receive help. Yes the benefits of specialised coaching are huge.
ursus262
16-08-2011, 20:54
Spot on, John, and is the message I've been attempting to convey on this thread too.
It is going to take a new generation of political leaders with actual moral courage to challenge the mess that we are in. I also agree with your comment that there are some rough times ahead.
The post-war era of decadence and unprecedented freedom and prosperity is at an end. I've just heard on the news this evening that the government are proposing curfews be enforced in some areas and this is unprecedented.
I have sensed this coming for a long time now, and that has influenced my decisions about how I live my life. For example, when I met my partner, we decided to live in an eco house which by good fortune was being built at the time we decided to move.
We are considering having a wood burning stove installed to reduce our already very low energy costs, and we are finding that commuting and driving is becoming more unaffordable for us, so we have curtailed some of our plans that have involved travel.
Eventually, we will leave the UK for France, which we perceive as being safer. But above all, we are pulling up the drawbridges and preparing for a hard life ahead
SteveTheShadow
16-08-2011, 22:39
The post-war era of decadence and unprecedented freedom and prosperity is at an end. I agree with most of your writing but I would like to highlight this quote.
What decadence? what prosperity?
I never saw any prosperity as a child in the 1960s. My Dad was a joiner and brought home very little money, neither did the miners and steelworkers.
Mum used to swap food with the neighbours just so she and they could give their husbands something different for tea. Can I pay you next week? was a phrase I often heard mum say to the milkman in particular.
I don't want to sound like "The Four Yorkshiremen" sketch but that's how it was. As a teenager I found 1973 to 1979 to be an unbelievably violent period, where you could be beaten senseless just for wearing the wrong clothes, football scarf or liking the wrong sort of music.
Even being in the wrong town and letting slip you were not from the right place could spell a good hiding.
Inter-town Tribalism was rife. There would often be pitched battles between Swinton and Mexborough groups, Thurnscoe and Goldthorpe, Conisbrough and Mexborough where large ball bearings placed in socks were used as weapons. Pit boots, "bovver boots" and bike chains inflicted horrific injuries. Thank God those days are behind us. Most of the teens and adults worked in heavy engineering or down the pit and were hard as nails. I was a lab assistant in a bog paper factory and knew my place in the pecking order, with my lily-white hands.
After the destruction of those industries and the splitting of the communities that occurred in the 1980s after unions were busted with first the steelworkers then the miners, vast swathes of the North and North East were laid waste.
Thirty odd years later we have just about rebuilt these communities, having had more than our fair share of grief over the past few decades. Large scale violence is a thing of the past and a much more laid back attitude is prevalent around most of Yorkshire in particular. Yes as I have hinted in my long post, there is a problem with some families and kids and it has got worse over the last two years, but most of the people around here are good folks.
I was talking about the disturbances the other day to a couple of lads I taught a few years ago and whom I suppose could be stereotyped as chavs.
"They're mad that lot sir! We can't be arsed to riot, we'd rather just go down Wetherspoons"
Oh that that attitude was present in some other parts of the country.
The decadence and prosperity certainly was not pervasive around these parts, and I have lived here all my life.
aquapiranha
16-08-2011, 22:48
I was thinking today that I am very lucky. I live in a nice house and want for nothing really (except a big pair of eff off Tannoys..) yet I have no job, and yes, I spend every single day looking for work and have applied for many many jobs, some of which are very menial but I have a work ethic and a job is a job.
Just think back to when you were a child, you might have been quite 'poor' but still happy like I was. I am trying to understand why todays young people put so much importance on what shoes they wear, when in my day you had whatever was going and were glad of them. Is this really how to get 'respect' as they put it? by wearing the latest nike trainers?
I am no expert, but I think that if the council evict these people who were rioting they will just end up in a B&B and we will end up paying even more for their upkeep. Same goes for prison where it will cost a fortune to keep them there. Of course they should be punioshed, but I think they should be made to clean up dog muck while wearing a pink jumpsuit...
Neil McCauley
16-08-2011, 22:58
I was thinking today that I am very lucky. I live in a nice house and want for nothing really (except a big pair of eff off Tannoys..) yet I have no job, and yes, I spend every single day looking for work and have applied for many many jobs, some of which are very menial but I have a work ethic and a job is a job.
Just think back to when you were a child, you might have been quite 'poor' but still happy like I was. I am trying to understand why todays young people put so much importance on what shoes they wear, when in my day you had whatever was going and were glad of them. Is this really how to get 'respect' as they put it? by wearing the latest nike trainers?
I am no expert, but I think that if the council evict these people who were rioting they will just end up in a B&B and we will end up paying even more for their upkeep. Same goes for prison where it will cost a fortune to keep them there. Of course they should be punioshed, but I think they should be made to clean up dog muck while wearing a pink jumpsuit...
I feel humbled reading what you've written - and not for the first time either by posts from you. Sincerely, Howard.
-----------------------
WOStantonCS100
16-08-2011, 23:02
I am trying to understand why todays young people put so much importance on what shoes they wear, when in my day you had whatever was going and were glad of them.
Well, somewhere (corporations/marketing agents/benefactors) figured out that they could exploit this demographic (young people); jamming them full of ads (lies) telling them every fifteen minutes (on the tele) that it's what they need to be important or to fit in. Today that's gadget consumerism. The problem is that the young folks, for the most part, bought the lie they were sold, not just on the consumer level; but, on so many other levels across the spectrum. Remember Nike? "Just Do It" Perhaps a better slogan would have been, "Set down and give a thought to the consequences first and then decide whether doing it or not doing it would be best for you and for others around you." Right... ...short slogan and slick marketing wins especially when a near breakdown of family has already been replaced with a generation of "me" thinkers.
aquapiranha
16-08-2011, 23:03
Thanks Howard. I wasn't sure I was making much sense really, just wanted to say it!
I was cajoled into posting as one or two people have expressed their disgust at the 'lazy' unemployed and wanted to state that they are not all like that! In fact, due to my circumstances I am in fact not entitled to job seekers allowance any more, so I do not feel that I am the 'drain on society' that some might be! ( I do not receive any benefits other than signing on to keep my NI credits going)
Steve
aquapiranha
17-08-2011, 00:12
Thanks John, from PNYC if I am not mistaken? Great album apart from the over excited american audience whooping and clapping all over the place.. :lol: *
*Before anyone starts, I have nothing against Americans.**
**except for Freinds, high fives and george dubbya...
Oh yeah, while I’m at it, National Sevice.
zqx5j-FuqeI
WOStantonCS100
17-08-2011, 00:19
Thanks John, from PNYC if I am not mistaken? Great album apart from the over excited american audience whooping and clapping all over the place.. :lol: *
*Before anyone starts, I have nothing against Americans.**
**except for Freinds, high fives and george dubbya...
All good here...
Never cared for the cult of personality that was Friends, always thought goin' 'round high fivin' folks was pretty stupid and george dubbya....... ....just another rich Texas oilman who I doubt very highly gives a feck about my situation or ever did. :)
Of course you may feel like praying
xK3VihNo_yQ
;)
Not that I think our deeply entrenched class system has got anything to do with any of this :eyebrows:
lG0L86DRuC8
Neil McCauley
17-08-2011, 00:35
The Daily Mail's approach to naming & shaming = http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026402/London-riots-Gordon-Thompson-33-charged-burning-Reeves-Croydon.html
Good or bad idea? I simply don't have the mental horsepower to decide. This one's gonna run and run I guess.
------------------------------
I am no expert, but I think that if the council evict these people who were rioting they will just end up in a B&B and we will end up paying even more for their upkeep. Same goes for prison where it will cost a fortune to keep them there. Of course they should be punioshed, but I think they should be made to clean up dog muck while wearing a pink jumpsuit...
Agreed, we will undoubtedly pay, whatever the outcome.
Vg1jyL3cr60
That's a GREAT song :)
anthonyTD
17-08-2011, 08:38
There has been plenty of analysis and solutions proferred if you want to read them. Here are a few again to be starting with:
Proper teaching of the English language, grammar and spelling, at primary school level
Bring back the 11+ exam
Bring back vocational training and apprenticeships
Make state benefits *limited*, require evidence for long term disability
Community service for all benefits claimants
Spoken English a requirement for all naturalisations
Kill *dead* any notion of sharia law - we already have laws in this country, thank you
Stop the idea that all A-level students should enter University, encourage proper careers opportunities at school leaving age
Limit the maximum salary anyone can be paid for a job - includes bankers and footballers, for a start
Government makes positive discrimination for all jobs given to British citizens and financially punishes companies using foreign telesales & IT support
Do you get the flavour? We are not lacking in ideas.
Quite agree with all of the above!
A...
Quite agree with all of the above!
A...
So do I, but can I make a couple of additions?
Anyone wearing a flat cap inside a car will be banned from driving for life
Tractors will only be allowed on public roads between 2.00am and 4.00am
Thank you.
Neil McCauley
17-08-2011, 10:09
Said Naomi Klein in The Guardian this morning:
"Looting with the lights on. The riots in Britain were political – and they are part of a wider global anger at governments that commit daylight robbery"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/17/looing-with-lights-off
So do I, but can I make a couple of additions?
Anyone wearing a flat cap inside a car will be banned from driving for life
Tractors will only be allowed on public roads between 2.00am and 4.00am
Thank you.
Sorry Frank, that is outrageous - you need to include caravans as well! ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/ui2ik89f9350ed8viewattth131d667a419.jpg
I thought the thread needed some humour ;)
Love that one Tim :lolsign:
Rich Conroy
18-08-2011, 13:35
I suppose it would be interesting to compare this thread to the "Who would want to invest in Belfast" one. I'm from Belfast.
An example of the effect that positive media coverage can have.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14563766
An example of the effect that positive media coverage can have.
That's great news. I have seen our A-level Physics student numbers dwindle to very small single figures while Photography and History of Art explodes. A balancing in the other direction is very welcome.
Neil McCauley
18-08-2011, 16:03
"A university student was jailed for 16 months today after taking part in looting during last week's riots. Conrad McGrath, 21, an English undergraduate at Aberystwyth University, was caught looting alcohol from a Tesco Express store in Oxford Street, Manchester."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/looting-student-jailed-for-16-months-2339898.html
Harsh? I don't think so. But of course these looters aren't my sons. I wonder where I'd stand if they were.
**********************
"A university student was jailed for 16 months today after taking part in looting during last week's riots. Conrad McGrath, 21, an English undergraduate at Aberystwyth University, was caught looting alcohol from a Tesco Express store in Oxford Street, Manchester."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/looting-student-jailed-for-16-months-2339898.html
Harsh? I don't think so. But of course these looters aren't my sons. I wonder where I'd stand if they were.
**********************
Hi,
There is a lack of consistancy with the punishment. There are a few of examples of this.
David Atto, 18, pleaded guilty to the theft of two Burberry T-shirts, worth perhaps £60. He told the police he had found them on the pavement. He pleaded guilty, had no relevant previous convictions, and was sentenced to a day in custody.
Then there was Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, who was jailed for six months for burglary. He took a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket. He also pleaded guilty and had no relevant previous convictions.
Two men were jailed for four years on Tuesday for using Facebook to incite riots which never took place. Joshua Moulinie, 19, who posted messages on the social networking website encouraging people to vandalise a shop avoided going to court and was told to apologise. He has to write the owner of the shop an apology.
There looks like there are going to be alot of appeals.
SCIDB
ursus262
19-08-2011, 16:22
Hi,
There is a lack of consistancy with the punishment. There are a few of examples of this.
David Atto, 18, pleaded guilty to the theft of two Burberry T-shirts, worth perhaps £60. He told the police he had found them on the pavement. He pleaded guilty, had no relevant previous convictions, and was sentenced to a day in custody.
Then there was Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, who was jailed for six months for burglary. He took a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket. He also pleaded guilty and had no relevant previous convictions.
Two men were jailed for four years on Tuesday for using Facebook to incite riots which never took place. Joshua Moulinie, 19, who posted messages on the social networking website encouraging people to vandalise a shop avoided going to court and was told to apologise. He has to write the owner of the shop an apology.
There looks like there are going to be alot of appeals.
SCIDB
Isn't it funny how people forget the real issues and instead look at the sideshow?
Of course sentencing policy is in disarray, but the real issue is that all of these people, for one reason or another, broke the law! The question that we ought to be concentrating on is: how did we get into this mess in the first place?
Thing Fish
19-08-2011, 18:36
Quote from tonights London Evening Standard -
The mother of a suspected rioter today said she let him remain behind bars rather than rist being evicted from her £1 million council house and left "on the streets"
Why do I bother working my arse off...:confused:
Please excuse me while I jump under a bus...:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:
Isn't it funny how people forget the real issues and instead look at the sideshow?
Of course sentencing policy is in disarray, but the real issue is that all of these people, for one reason or another, broke the law! The question that we ought to be concentrating on is: how did we get into this mess in the first place?
Hi,
This is a real issue. Part of law and order is sentencing. Yes they have broken the law but it has to be consistant. Law & order needs to be constistant. We have already had one sentence overturned on appeal. More will follow.
I agree that it is important to look at causes.
Techno Commander
19-08-2011, 21:27
Our father, who art in prison,
my mum knows not his name,
thy Riots come, I read it in the Sun,
in Birmingham, as it is in London.
Give us this day our Welfare bread & forgive us our looting,
as we're happy to loot those who defend stuff against us,
lead us not into employment but deliver us free housing,
for thine is the tellys,
the Burberry & the Barcardi,
forever and ever...Innit...
very good Andy ilike that
I have to say, the "riots" were all very "British" weren't they - a couple of days of (media exaggerated) madness, and then after everyone is told to clam down, they duly do. (Not that I am complaining, mind!) Not meaning to belittle or bemoan the situation, a simple observation that once the apparent gravy train was derailed, everyone went back to normal.
. . . once the apparent gravy train was derailed, everyone went back to normal.
:scratch: I'm not so sure about that Alex, it might feel like that if your life hasn't changed, but this is not anywhere close to being over or 'back to normal' I'm afraid, not yet anyway.
I have to say, the "riots" were all very "British" weren't they - a couple of days of (media exaggerated) madness, and then after everyone is told to clam down, they duly do. (Not that I am complaining, mind!) Not meaning to belittle or bemoan the situation, a simple observation that once the apparent gravy train was derailed, everyone went back to normal.
Except the people who had there business and home burned to the ground.
our father, who art in prison,
my mum knows not his name,
thy riots come, i read it in the sun,
in birmingham, as it is in london.
Give us this day our welfare bread & forgive us our looting,
as we're happy to loot those who defend stuff against us,
lead us not into employment but deliver us free housing,
for thine is the tellys,
the burberry & the barcardi,
forever and ever...innit...
funny but disturbing.
Isn't it funny how people forget the real issues and instead look at the sideshow?
Of course sentencing policy is in disarray, but the real issue is that all of these people, for one reason or another, broke the law! The question that we ought to be concentrating on is: how did we get into this mess in the first place?
You can as well ask yourself why TV news sound like tabloids and education adopts marketing vocabulary... :eyebrows:
Democracy is the most stable regime, but the ruling class needs self-discipline and has to learn to play less with extreme conditions ! Stability has a price. ;)
Neil McCauley
20-08-2011, 13:26
Except the people who had there business and home burned to the ground.
And then found that their expensive insurances excluded claims caused as the consequence of 'Civil Disturbance'
*****************************
ursus262
20-08-2011, 14:09
Our father, who art in prison,
my mum knows not his name,
thy Riots come, I read it in the Sun,
in Birmingham, as it is in London.
Give us this day our Welfare bread & forgive us our looting,
as we're happy to loot those who defend stuff against us,
lead us not into employment but deliver us free housing,
for thine is the tellys,
the Burberry & the Barcardi,
forever and ever...Innit...
I've actually got a bottle of unopened Barcardi that my mother gave me. God knows what I am going to do with it! Anybody have any suggestions? :)
Saw a picture of a riot scallywag running of with not one but two Pioneer cd players and a Audiolab 8200 amp! ( possibly croyden Richer Sounds )
See , its a myth kids want to just download free mp3s on computers. They want multiroom hi end kit but just cant afford it.
I've actually got a bottle of unopened Barcardi that my mother gave me. God knows what I am going to do with it! Anybody have any suggestions? :)
Make some Mojito's with it, a wonderful cocktail :)
http://www.eyeonspain.com/userfiles/image/Spain%20recipes/mojito.jpg
Ingredients:
2 tsp sugar (white or brown, depending on your preference. Brown tends to work well with darker spirits)
½ a fresh lime chopped into quarters
6-8 fresh mint leaves
Crushed ice (put ice in a tea towel and smash it with a rolling pin)
2 measures of rum
Soda to top
Directions:
1. Muddle sugar and limes in a glass, using the end of a rolling pin to squeeze out the juice and start to dissolve sugar.
2. Add mint and muddle a little more.
3. Fill the glass with crushed or cracked ice. Add the rum and stir the ingredients to equally distribute flavour.
4. Top with soda and a little more crushed ice to garnish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojito
:cool:
Mmm, might try that tonight, Tim.
I'm a fan of 'Long Island Tea' :)
ursus262
20-08-2011, 14:59
Hmmm. Thanks for that.
Note to self: put limes and mint on the next Ocado order :eyebrows:
And then found that their expensive insurances excluded claims caused as the consequence of 'Civil Disturbance'
... in which case, they would probably be fine, as the local police authority would be obliged to compensate them, under the Riot (Damages) Act of 1886. :)
... in which case, they would probably be fine, as the local police authority would be obliged to compensate them, under the Riot (Damages) Act of 1886. :)
Except that for it to be in legal terms a 'Riot' then the Riot Act must be read..
is my understanding:)
Except that for it to be in legal terms a 'Riot' then the Riot Act must be read..
is my understanding:)
Exactly - if it is a riot, then the Police authority pay - if not, then it is just "normal" theft, fire etc. and the insurance will pay - my point is that the "exclusion" of "Civil Disturbance" (Riot) is only included in insurance policies because if it is a Riot/Civil Disturbance then legally the authority pay - it is not excluded simply to get out of paying up. :)
Neil McCauley
20-08-2011, 22:42
... in which case, they would probably be fine, as the local police authority would be obliged to compensate them, under the Riot (Damages) Act of 1886. :)
Assuming they have the money of course.
Exactly - if it is a riot, then the Police authority pay - if not, then it is just "normal" theft, fire etc. and the insurance will pay - my point is that the "exclusion" of "Civil Disturbance" (Riot) is only included in insurance policies because if it is a Riot/Civil Disturbance then legally the authority pay - it is not included in policies simply to get out of paying out. :)
:doh: Good point! I forget you work in Insurance :lolsign:
Assuming they have the money of course.
Indeed - I suspect we will see a review of the law following the "unrest" - I believe the total estimate so far is around £100M which whilst not insignificant is unlikely to be a "problem" but what if it had continued to escalate? The bad news of course is that whether the insurance companies or police authorities pay up, it will cost everyone more in the long run in either premiums or taxes!
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